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JOINT COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Sub-Committee on Human Rights) debate -
Thursday, 4 May 2006

ABColombia: Presentation.

We will now proceed with our meeting with representatives of Trócaire and ABColombia. I welcome Ms Patricia Abozaglo. Unfortunately, Trócaire's Latin American programme officer, Mr. James Lupton, has been delayed at the airport. However, if he thinks the delays at the airport in London are bad, wait until he experiences the traffic in Dublin. Mr. Lupton is the advocacy officer for the ABColombia group, which Trócaire supports and of which it is part. The witnesses were invited to discuss their ongoing work and activities in Colombia, which is one of Trócaire's priority countries in South America.

Colombia received significant funding from Irish Aid for many years. Trócaire's work has been focused on programme support, advocacy and lobbying issues, mainly through the United Nations and EU networks. Trócaire highlighted its concerns and recommendations regarding Colombia in a submission that has been circulated to members. The sub-committee is pleased to have the opportunity to hear from Ms Abozaglo and Mr. Lupton.

I draw attention to the fact that members of this sub-committee have absolute privilege but that this privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the sub-committee.

Before we begin, I wish to point out that I am obliged to be present in the Dáil for Private Members' Business in approximately three minutes. I do not mean any discourtesy towards our guests in leaving the meeting.

I have already explained to our guests that there will also be a vote in the House at 12.30 p.m.

Ms Patricia Abozaglo

I thank the Chairman and members for this opportunity to present some of our concerns regarding the situation in Colombia. I am speaking on behalf of Mr. Lupton, the advocacy officer for the ABColombia group. ABColombia is a partner of Trócaire, which is part of the ABColombia group. I had hoped that Mr. Lupton would be here to deliver this address.

We made a submission some time ago outlining how ABColombia sees the Colombian situation. This was presented with a session of the UN Human Rights Commission in mind but because of the UN reform programme, it was not taken up as we had hoped it would be. However, we believe that the newly structured Human Rights Commission will now examine the submission.

Our first concern regarding Colombia is its failure to comply with past recommendations of the UN Human Rights Commission. We have been laying great emphasis on this issue and have asked the Irish Government to pursue this matter. Our second concern — it is more of a request — is that the possibility of a second formal mechanism under which progress regarding compliance with the UN recommendations can be assessed at six-month intervals, possibly by the UN General Assembly, should be considered.

We are of the opinion that the Irish Government should increase its representations to the Colombian Government with regard to respect for human rights and international law in Colombia, including through providing impetus to the human rights dimension of the London-Cartagena process. We know that the Irish Government has been involved in that process and we suggest that it continue its work in this regard. We trust that the Department of Foreign Affairs will take a keen interest in this process and note that several of the key civil society participants are supported by Irish Aid under the multi-annual programme scheme, MAPS.

We are hopeful that the reformed structure of the UN Human Rights Commission will guarantee the same profile and emphasis on the Colombian situation as has been the case in the past. We call on the Irish Government to continue its efforts to bring this about.

ABColombia affirms the need for a comprehensive peace process, involving all armed groups, with the full participation of civil society. That process should conform to international standards of truth, justice and reparation. We hope and trust that the EU Council of Ministers will be vigilant concerning the implementation of the demobilisation process with the paramilitary groups. It is important that the greatest possible care be exercised by the UN Human Rights Commission and Irish Aid in order that no co-operation resources serve to strengthen impunity. In this regard, we expressed our concerns to the Department of Foreign Affairs about the support provided for the OAS mission to support the peace process. At the same time, we are pleased that additional support has been provided, through the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights, to strengthen the human rights component of the process.

ABColombia and Trócaire ask for clear and sustained support for the role of the UN Human Rights High Commissioner's office in Bogota, particularly in negotiating its new mandate with the Colombian Government, which we believe should remain unchanged. We are of the view that its observation role should be maintained. The office plays a crucial role in the monitoring of human rights and it will be able to play an even more important part if the Colombian Government allows it to do so.

Is any work done through the Council of Europe?

Ms Abozaglo

I know that some organisations have explored that route but the ABColombia group has not done so.

I am chairman of the Irish delegation to the Council of Europe, which works closely on human rights issues.

I apologise for being late. Bienvenida.

Ms Abozaglo

Gracias.

This presentation has been valuable because Colombia has fallen off the agenda of recent parliamentary discussions, which is a great pity. A disturbing development has taken place in which a Swiss NGO has been accused by the Colombian Government of working with FARC.

I concur with the Acting Chairman's remark that the Council of Europe is important as a source of human rights discourse across a number of important issues. Its discussions on Plan Colombia were positive in terms of seeking the maximum amount of information. Ms Abozaglo may have already been in contact with the Irish Centre for Human Rights, headed by Professor William Shabas, with which I have an association.

Unusually for a committee of the Oireachtas, the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs voted against Plan Colombia because it was particularly concerned about the European Union's component of aid. In effect, the US component of Plan Colombia was dispossessing people in vast areas, leaving the EU to sweep up the consequences of a plan that was opposed by many in the European Parliament.

The restructuring of the United Nations Human Rights Committee has ushered us into a new era. Mr. Bolton accepted the new structures on behalf of the United States, although he was not enthusiastic about the changes. However, I am unclear on whether the mechanisms previously used by intervention agencies have survived into the new structure. Under the old Geneva structure, they were able to take initiatives to address problems. When discussions on the new committee were taking place, the issue arose of whether the mechanisms would survive.

It is disturbing that the International Labour Organisation has not been more active in trying to establish independent international investigations into trade union matters. We are dancing around bushes in respect of this issue. For example, trade union leaders who seek to organise workers in factories are being assassinated in their homes, allowing those in control of the private armies to deny responsibility on the basis that murders did not take place on the factory floor. These assassinations continue to take place in Bogota and several other places.

We have received reports of peasants being harassed by FARC, on one hand, and moved by the army, on the other. While Trócaire's work with peasants seeking to survive in difficult circumstances is supported by Members of the Oireachtas from all parties, as long as some parts of Colombia are controlled by FARC and while the army carries out intervention operations in others, many communities will continue to live in terror. We heard presentations on that issue and I find the current situation in Colombia deeply depressing because it is clear that Plan Colombia has simply migrated the drug problem, while also dispossessing peasants and defoliating the countryside. The Colombian Government has not made significant efforts to reacquire legitimacy through elections or in terms of an independent judiciary. The people in the middle, those involved with human rights work, are regarded as oppositional forces. Now we learn that some international agencies are regarded as supporters of FARC because of their criticism of the treatment of detainees.

I wish ABColombia well in its work and am sure it can count on the sub-committee's support. On Ms Abozaglo's specific points, there has been support from the sub-committee for the UN position. It makes sense to hold a review and the Acting Chairman's suggestion on attracting the interest of bodies across other parliaments is helpful. Decisions arrived at under the London-Cartagena process are not always revisited by the sub-committee.

It should be made clear that the sub-committee and the wider joint committee are not interested in human rights in a legal sense. The broader social and economic definition of human rights is what motivates most members of both.

I am here by coincidence but I want to offer my support to Ms Abozaglo. It is important that the Government supports the retention of the United Nations office in Bogota. When I visited Colombia on a human rights mission on behalf of three Irishmen who were incarcerated there, I found the support of the UN and Red Cross to be exemplary. Colombia is a beautiful country but the ongoing civil war is tragic. People on this side of the Atlantic have no comprehension of the lack of human rights in Colombia. ABColombia is doing tremendous work and our support is critical.

By Irish standards, the regime in Colombia borders on the neo-totalitarian. Even though the Executive and Legislature are separate in theory, that is not the case in reality. I attended public court on six occasions for one week at a time to observe the trial of the three Irishmen to whom I referred. These individuals were found innocent in public but found guilty behind the scenes in a kangaroo court. This is the reality. I want to speak on the conditions in the prison I visited. The cell was approximately the size of this room but square. Some 46 men were in one cell in which they ate, drank, slept and cooked. There was no daylight or fresh air. On entering the cell one had to draw one's breath because fumes came up from manhole covers. That is where the three Irish men were imprisoned. I do not know how they survived it mentally. There was also a threat from paramilitary prisoners on another floor.

They were right-wing paramilitary prisoners.

Yes, the right-wing paramilitary prisoners were on another floor. When I went there in the beginning, the Irish people in this 46-person cell had to stay on guard at night to ensure they were not shot by the right-wing paramilitary prisoners on another floor. Western Europeans make snap judgments and draw perceptions of the country from the media. When I first went to Colombia I knew nothing about it but that it is a South American country. I studied it upside down and inside out and my eyes were opened. Ms Mary Robinson, then United Nations High Commissioner, put on record that she was seriously worried about human rights in Colombia and the impunity of right-wing paramilitary forces. Therefore, they are all at it. I am delighted to support Ms Abozaglo and to say that our Government and Deputy Davern should stress that our Government supports the retention of the United Nations office in Bogota. To meet those people is extraordinary because they are so brave.

I propose that the sub-committee pass a resolution in that regard, that we recommend that the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs give every assistance possible to ensure the retention of the United Nations office in Bogota.

Yes. It is a very beautiful country and I would love to return there in a less contentious environment. I thank the Deputy for giving me the opportunity.

Mr. Lupton is welcome to the meeting.

Mr. James Lupton

I apologise for arriving late. I blame it on Ryanair. The sub-committee will probably have had a much better presentation from Ms Abozaglo than the one I would have given.

Ms Abozaglo

That is not true. I thank the sub-committee and I was glad to see from my list that the Deputy and the Senator would be here. I was in Colombia at the end of last March and April. One of our major concerns regarding the reports on human rights in Colombia is that although figures show a decrease in human rights violations, which is good news, at the same time I saw much fear among people, the same abuses but less speaking out. The dynamics have changed. The issue of demobilisation has brought different actors into the communities, which are preserving social control and exercising power over people, and I was moved by that. People are struggling day to day for survival because of poverty and also have to cope with violence.

I agree with what Deputy Michael Higgins said on the presence of guerillas and their control. This is part of the document we have. I travelled in areas where there are armed strikes and the silence was probably because of that. I suggest that when people read those reports they should ask others for their opinion and combine the sources of information, because the reports make things look better than they are. Only by travelling and talking to people can one see that it is not as nice as it looks. That is why we are concerned to keep an eye on Colombia, not to drop it from the international agenda, to call for the international community's attention and to highlight the role of the UN.

On the way into the prison to see the conditions I saw amputees who had no wheelchair, and were sitting on the floor. The conditions are horrendous. Deputy Michael Higgins would understand that while I went on a human rights mission I had to carry a burden. It is the same for the United Nations people. They told us because the UN office in Bogota defends human rights it is accused of vices, as I was. Although I did not know at that time, people thought I was a supporter of the Colombia three. I did not go to support anyone. I went to observe the conditions in the prison and to ensure they got a fair trial. The United Nations people told us they fear for their lives. They are based on Bogota, but because they defend the human rights of people in Colombia the government accuses them of supporting these people too. We cannot imagine the reality. I am glad to be here to highlight this again.

Mr. Lupton

I apologise once again for being late. It is good news that there has been a proposal for a resolution on the continued work of the UN. We say in our document and would like to strongly emphasise that not only is a continuation of the work of the UN office important, but this year the mandate of the office for the next four-year period is up for renegotiation and it is important the mandate remain as it is. It has a strong component of on-the-ground observation and a stipulation that an annual report should be produced by the High Commissioner, to be presented in the past to the Commission but now to the new Human Rights Council. Within this context of the UN office being considered to be associated with subversion by certain members of the government and the armed forces, but not by all members of the Government and the armed forces, there are many moves in the government to try to reduce the level of the mandate. There is no danger of an attempt to remove the office, which would be too difficult to achieve politically, and would have too many political counter-effects. However there is interest in reducing the teeth of the mandate.

That is serious.

Mr. Lupton

We would be very pleased to see in any resolution, support for the continuing mandate and the continuing high profile of Colombia in the Human Rights Council structures and for the importance of the annual report.

We agree on that. I suggest that our resolution support the renewal of the mandate in its fullest sense including the right for on-site observation and the publication of a report, and with such additional resources as are required to enable it to fulfil its mission.

In Mr. Lupton's absence I had suggested that we seek that the Council of Europe pass resolutions. It is a 45-nation body that has some weight. Moreover, it is already active in areas of South America and has been involved in similar conflicts. This sub-committee would be only too pleased to help ABColombia in that regard.

The Acting Chairman is personally involved, which is critically important.

I am chairman of the Irish delegation to the Council of Europe.

Mr. Lupton

We welcome that.

The EU Council of Ministers also has an important role to play in Colombia. It is preparing new conclusions because it has been six months since the previous Council conclusions. The Council gave lukewarm support to the justice and peace law, the legislation that covers the demobilisation. I have copies of the conclusions and I am sure the sub-committee has access to them. They are well-worded and express concern at the fact that the legislation that was passed to govern the demobilisation did not meet the international standards necessary for guaranteeing truth, justice and reconciliation, including the matter of reparation for victims. It expresses the hope that, transparently applied, the law will provide a framework for a successful demobilisation.

We understand that an evaluation of the first period is under way. We are concerned about the strengthening of the tendency toward impunity as a result of the legislation, and the consolidation of the military and non-military advances of the paramilitaries. We hope that the Irish Government will urge a rigorous, independent evaluation of the implications of the demobilisation process in its discussions with the Council of Ministers.

We stress in our document that we are concerned that the core elements of the legislation allow for impunity for people who were guilty of abuses. This process involves the paramilitaries but we stress that it is a matter of principle. If the FARC guerrillas were included in the process, the principle would be the same. There should be a mechanism to prevent impunity as a trade-off for achieving a negotiated settlement. We understand that it is an intractable conflict and that there must be some horse-trading in a process that seeks to bring it to an end. We hear that all such processes are flawed and that horse-trading is to be expected but in this case the flaws have been built in to the process. It is similar to building houses on a flood plain or on the geological fault in an earthquake zone. The source of our concern is not that weaknesses in the legislation developed during the process but that so many of them were foreseen but were still passed. It is extremely important that the evaluation be carried out in a serious manner if there is to be a further public declaration from the EU Council of Ministers.

The fact that ABColombia agrees that horse-trading will take place means it accepts that both sides will be obliged to compromise. We have an example of that in this country where compromises are still difficult to achieve.

Mr. Lupton

We are not interested in assuming naive positions. The boundary has been pushed further than should have been the case.

The sub-committee should send a note to the Department of Foreign Affairs to the effect that it is concerned as to the implications of impunity and that the settlement has been raised with us.

Mr. Lupton

There is increasing evidence that demobilised groups are still active and that new groups are being formed. Consolidation of economic and political power is taking place. Until very recently, active paramilitary leaders influenced, directly or indirectly, political processes such as the most recent elections. It remains to be seen what will happen in the next. A wealth of evidence is emerging of their continued influence in criminal activities and armed activities relating to breaches of human rights. That was predicted and has emerged in these early days of the demobilisation process. The very least that is required is a concrete and serious evaluation of the implications of this.

Is the continued access to funds from demobilisation a problem?

Mr. Lupton

Yes, it is a problem and the commission set up to deal with rehabilitation and reparation for victims is under-resourced. It is still not clear from where the resources will come. Under international norms it would come from the state and the victimisers should at least make an important contribution to reparation for the victims.

The procedures to reinsert or reintegrate ex-combatants are linked to reparation for victims. Even under the justice and peace law there does not have to be a full disclosure or a full confession of the crimes committed, nor of all the assets that were accumulated as a result of criminal or abusive activities. An estimated 4 million hectares of land were appropriated by the paramilitaries over the 20-year period in which they were active. In many cases the lands were taken from 3.5 million people who were displaced as a result of the criminal activities of those to whom I refer. The paramilitaries do not have to confess that they possess them nor provide a legal trail showing title to the land and if they make plans to engage their own demobilised men in productive processes on that land, in schemes that include some of their victims, they can avail of subsidies to invest in those lands.

I must advise Mr. Lupton that a vote is about to take place in the Dáil.

Mr. Lupton

I understand. EU money, in this case Irish money, that is earmarked for the reinsertion process and for victims of the conflict is not actually spent on schemes used to consolidate the ill-gotten gains of those who are guilty of the gravest human rights abuses.

I hope that peace comes to Colombia and that, when it does, those people are referred to the equivalent of a great organisation we have in Ireland, namely, the Criminal Assets Bureau, CAB, which does a tremendous job in researching how and from where some people obtain their money. It has a right to seize property and extract money and it works very well. Many once-wealthy people have suddenly lost that wealth.

Mr. Lupton

The application of such international lessons is also extremely important. There is also the Palermo agreement, which traces the proceeds of organised crime. That is beginning to be considered as applicable to Colombia.

A vote is taking place in the Dáil. I apologise to the delegation but I must bring our proceedings to a close. That is the nature of our democracy. We will win the vote but it is still called democracy.

The sub-committee adjourned at 12.50 p.m. sine die.

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