JOINT COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS debate

Cluster Munitions: Discussion with Pax Christi Ireland.

Chairman

I wish to advise that, whereas Members of the Houses of the Oireachtas enjoy absolute privilege in respect of utterances made in committee, witnesses do not. Accordingly, caution should be exercised, particularly as regards references of a personal nature.

I welcome Mr. Tony D'Costa, general secretary of Pax Christi Ireland, to discuss the issue of cluster munitions. Pax Christi International is a Catholic peace movement with national sections on all continents. Its activities are mainly related to security and disarmament, human rights, East-West and North-South relations, peace education, peace, spirituality, non-violence, faith and dialogue and reconciliation. Pax Christi is open to all and works with other peace movements in all areas of peace making. It began working in Ireland in 1958 and in recent times has been involved in issues related to landmines, explosive remnants of war, small arms and light weapons, child soldiers, nuclear disarmament and other weapons of mass destruction. It has also been involved with issues related to the Middle East, East Timor, Tibet, Bouganville and has been engaged with the promotion of peace and reconciliation in Northern Ireland.

Without doubt, cluster munitions constitute a great danger, not just during hostilities but also in post-conflict situations. What makes these weapons so desirable to the military is the extent of the area they can affect. That is what makes them so hazardous for civilians. Cluster munitions give rise to grave humanitarian concerns for two reasons. First, a high rate of failure is a characteristic of these munitions and this creates a lasting problem in the form of explosive remnants of war which can have indiscriminate effects on citizens. Second, the large volume of munitions delivered during each firing can result in a wide footprint in the targeted area, with great damage to civilians as well as others. Information on the use of cluster munitions from recent war zones such as Iraq and southern Lebanon is highly disturbing. Their widespread use in these countries through ground launching systems in heavily built up densely populated areas has been disastrous for civilians. Moreover, clearing these weapons is especially difficult.

In the international arena, Ireland has taken a strong position in calling for action on cluster munitions and the Government has worked tirelessly towards bringing about a complete ban to the manufacture and stockpiling of these weapons. Pax Christi has also played a prominent role in seeking to eliminate cluster munitions. I now call on Mr. D'Costa to make his presentation.

Mr. Tony D’Costa

I am most grateful to Deputy Michael Woods, Chairman, and members of the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs for giving me the opportunity to make a presentation on the subject of cluster munitions. I express my sincere thanks to the committee for inviting me and giving me the opportunity over many years to raise issues of our concern especially on the subject of landmines, blinding laser weapons and, last year, on cluster munitions.

Global conscience is awakened and the spirit of humanity is forging ahead bringing governments, NGOs and international institutions together towards securing a total ban on the production, stockpiling, transfer and use of cluster munitions. These indiscriminate weapons have been devastating the lives of people for over four decades. They should have existed only in history books decades back.

I met some of the survivors of cluster munitions in Vienna last week at the conference on cluster munitions organised by the Federal Ministry for European and International Affairs of Austria, a member of the core group of the Oslo process. I am carrying their pain in my heart and of those I have come to know through their photographs and stories. Their faces and injuries are imprinted in my mind and my heart says to them, "I won't let you down." I made a promise to Soraj Ghulam Habib from Afghanistan, Ahmed Yasim Nejem from Iraq, Sladan Vockovic and Branislav Kapetanovick from Belgrade that I would share their stories with you. These stories are with the papers we have circulated. Today their pain is being translated into an action of hope for future generations, leading the international community towards a comprehensive ban on cluster munitions. Seventy six countries stockpile these weapons and 34 countries have produced them. Stocks of cluster munitions reach into the billions, presenting an alarming potential for future harm. Thirty countries and regions are affected by cluster munitions. It is estimated that more than 80 million cluster bomblets were dropped in Laos in the 1960s which are still killing and maiming adults and children every year.

In 1999, millions of these bomblets were dropped in Afghanistan, Iraq and Kosovo. Last year, it is estimated that 1 million bomblets were dropped in the 72 hours before the ceasefire in Lebanon. Already a contaminated country with landmines, unexploded ordnance and cluster bombs from previous incursions, Lebanon is facing a major challenge to clear its land. These mines and cluster bombs will continue to claim lives for decades and undermine post-conflict rehabilitation and economic recovery of the affected areas. Banning and clearing landmines will be of little value if similar situations are created and multiplied by the use of other weapons like cluster munitions. People will continue to be killed and maimed for generation after generation. The credibility of the Government's development and aid policies demands that these weapons are totally banned.

In my presentation to the committee on 5 December 2006, I urged the Government to play an effective role towards securing a total prohibition on the production, stockpiling, transfer and use of cluster munitions by its active participation in international initiatives to address the issue comprehensively and effectively; to enact a national law prohibiting the production, stockpiling, transfer and use of cluster munitions as we know them; to support research, publication and awareness-raising initiatives on this subject nationally and internationally; to increase support for the clearance of contaminated land by landmines, cluster munitions and other unexploded ordnance; to increase support for mine risk education, and to increase support for the rehabilitation of mine survivors and their socio-economic integration.

One year later and with far greater urgency, I again call on the Government to introduce legislation without delay to outlaw these weapons by banning the possession, use, production, development and transfer of cluster munitions for all time. Regretfully, I must report that currently there are no steps being taken in this direction. This prohibition should be of the highest standard and absolutely flawless, drawing only congratulations from around the world, adding dynamism to the Oslo process and giving hope to the victims and the marginalised who are facing the consequences of the use of these weapons everyday in their lives. If major European powers were facing the same challenge, they would have developed new laws and interpreted the existing laws to put these types of weapons in the history books. The unfortunate thing is that many of these countries produce, stockpile, transfer and use these horrific weapons.

The basic tenet of international humanitarian law is that the right of combatants to choose their means and methods of warfare is not unlimited. More than 40 years of the use of cluster munitions, resulting in civilian deaths and an impact on lives and livelihoods during conflict and post-conflict situations, understates the case for a total ban on cluster munitions. A legally binding instrument is long overdue. It is time for Ireland to demonstrate that political and moral courage in leading the world, along with civil society and progressive governments, towards a total ban on cluster munitions. Let us ensure the hopes and expectations of the world community for a total ban on cluster munitions become a reality through the Oslo process.

Dear members of the committee and Members of the Oireachtas, I am pleading with you on behalf of the suffering people to stand with victims and stand with us to ban cluster munitions forever, in order that children can run free in the fields, go to school and that their parents can till their land and draw water from their wells without the fear of being blown up by cluster bombs or landmines.

Ireland is a small country with a big heart and has taken giant steps in the field of disarmament. In 1968, Frank Aiken's skill and commitment gave the world the nuclear non-proliferation treaty, and this has prevented nuclear proliferation and secured commitment for a total nuclear disarmament. During the final hours of negotiations, Ireland was one of the three countries which saved the Ottawa process to ban landmines from being weakened during the negotiations in Oslo in September 1997. In 1998, Ireland developed the New Agenda Coalition for nuclear disarmament with partner countries which secured the unequivocal commitment from the nuclear weapons states for total nuclear disarmament at the review conference of the nuclear non-proliferation treaty in 2000. It is time again for Ireland to demonstrate that skill and commitment and lead by example. The text of the mine ban convention was negotiated in September 1997, but Ireland had the moral and political courage to enact a unilateral ban on landmines in June 1996, way ahead of the final negotiations.

The Oslo meeting on cluster munitions was announced in November 2006 in Geneva. The first meeting of the Oslo process was held in February this year, followed by meetings in Lima in May and Vienna in December. In the meantime, many other meetings also have taken place regarding the process in Belgrade, Brussels, Costa Rica, Geneva and Stockholm, and will be followed by meetings in Wellington in February and Dublin in May 2008. Ireland is a member of the core group and a comprehensive ban on cluster munitions by Ireland will be a crucial contribution towards strengthening and leading global opinion for a total ban. I call on Ireland and its legislators to take that vital step and enact a total ban by February 2008.

Despite being a member of NATO, Belgium had the political courage to be the first country to enact a law prohibiting cluster munitions which came into force on 9 June 2006. Last Wednesday, 5 December 2007, Ms Ursula Plassnik, Austrian Minister for European and International Affairs, stated at the Vienna conference on cluster munitions:

I am proud to inform you that the Austrian Parliament will adopt tomorrow a national law that bans the possession, use, production, development and transfer of cluster munitions. Once this law is in force, all types of cluster munitions will be illegal, including so called "intelligent" sensor-fused munitions. We hope that this law will become a trend setter and we stand ready to assist other states in their own legislative efforts.

I congratulate Belgium and Austria for taking these bold steps. As Ireland does not posses cluster munitions or use them, I would have personally liked very much if it could have been the first country to do so. An announcement of a total legislative ban on cluster munitions by Ireland at the Wellington conference of the Oslo process in February 2008 would add further dynamism and accelerate the process, stimulating global movement towards a comprehensive ban. The prohibition should include all types of cluster munitions.

The origins of the current NGO initiative to ban cluster munitions lie in the international conference on explosive remnants of war and development organised by Pax Christi Ireland and hosted by the Department of Foreign Affairs in Dublin Castle in April 2003. The international NGO community has great expectations for Ireland and hopes it will play a skilful and vigorous role in securing a total ban on cluster munitions throughout the Oslo process and beyond. I also urge the Government to support and influence other governments to join the process. This would be a significant contribution before Ireland hosts a meeting on the subject as a member of the core group.

We need world leaders with a vision of a just peace. We need leaders with intellectual rigor and the political and moral courage to create a just society for all humanity. Let us transform our destructive power into a creative service of healing the woundedness of our world. Let us open our hearts to the pain and suffering of the people injured by these terrible weapons and ban them forever. Let beauty emerge from chaos. Let violent fists open into peaceful hands stretching our sense of family to include all those injured by these weapons — children, men and women without limbs and sight. On their behalf, I plead with members of the committee to ban these weapons totally. I seek their leadership and that of Ireland to make our world cluster munitions free.

Chairman

I thank Mr. D'Costa. The programme for Government states:

This Government will campaign for a complete ban on the use of cluster munitions. In the absence of a full ban we will seek agreement on an immediate freeze on the use of cluster munitions pending the establishment of effective international instruments to address humanitarian concerns regarding their use.

The Minister for Foreign Affairs in his address to the UN General Assembly in October referred to Ireland's role "in seeking a comprehensive response to the curse of cluster munitions, the appalling effects of which are all too evident in Lebanon and elsewhere." He continued: "As a contribution to the collaborative effort launched in Oslo last February, Ireland will host a diplomatic conference in May 2008 which we hope may finalise the first ever international agreement on cluster munitions." Mr. D'Costa asked that the Minister be skilful in the way he went about this. There is total commitment from him. He is working busily diplomatically to try to bring about a wider agreement.

Deputy Billy Timmins

There is little with which one could disagree in the presentation made by Mr. D'Costa. It would be helpful and send a clear signal of our position if we had legislation in place before the conference is held in May 2008, which it is hoped will build on the Oslo process, notwithstanding the fact that Ireland does not possess or use cluster munitions, or — I stand to be corrected — produce components for such weapons.

Cluster munitions are probably the most reprehensible weapon used in wartime. They are reprehensible particularly because they can have an impact post-conflict. The whole purpose of using them is to terrorise the civilian population. I have seen their impact at first-hand. I served in Lebanon where I met children with an arm or a leg missing, on crutches or in a wheelchair, simply because they had picked up something that was attractive to them long after the conflict had actually taken place. We do not place enough emphasis on the banning of these munitions because we are not familiar with them and do not see their impact. In the Glen of Imaal in the late 1970s a group of children picked up unexploded ordnance. Some of them were killed while playing with it, while others lost limbs, which had a dramatic impact at the time.

We cannot over-emphasise the importance of leading the way on this issue. I congratulate the Belgian and Austrian authorities, but there is a hill to climb, given that over 70 countries stockpile these weapons and over 30 use them. There is great reluctance among the major military powers, China, the United States and Russia, to cease their use. We must lead the way in this regard.

I compliment the Irish military which, on many missions but particularly in Lebanon, is involved in the clearing of mines and dealing with cluster munitions. It is important to remember that landmines are generally marked and recorded. When a conflict ends, there is generally an exchange of information on where they are located. Cluster munitions, however, are like ice creams lying in the streets for youngsters to pick up. That is why they are so reprehensible.

Deputy Darragh O’Brien

I thank Mr. D'Costa for his presentation. As Deputy Timmins said, this country will do all it can to follow its good track record which dates back to Mr. Frank Aiken in 1968 and includes the important ban on landmines. While Ireland is a small country, we punch above our weight on many issues in the European and world community, particularly in the context of our excellent track record in peacekeeping and the role the Defence Forces play in many areas of conflict such as Kosovo, where we have troops stationed.

The Minister is committed to doing as much as he can to reach an overall agreement. I agree with Mr. D'Costa that it would make for a clear statement if legislation was brought forward before the Wellington conference in February. A February target might prove tight, however, but if we can make a statement of intent before the conference, it would be useful. I agree with Deputy Timmins that any move in this direction would help. We must try to use our influence with other countries to encourage them to join the process.

I commend the Austrian and Belgian Governments, particularly the Belgians, given that they are a NATO member and, therefore, the decision they took would not have been easy. We know the horrendous injuries caused by these munitions. In the last days of the recent conflict in south Lebanon, when it was known the ceasefire was to take effect, upwards of 1 million items of ordnance were dropped in the area by the Israeli defence forces. This was reprehensible and disgraceful.

Reference was made to Irish Aid. The committee should consider to which countries aid is being given and perhaps have the use of cluster munitions by a country as a yardstick by which to judge whether we should continue to fund particular regimes.

I thank Mr. D'Costa for coming before the committee. I back Deputy Timmins in his call for the committee to make a statement of intent. If we cannot have the legislation in place by February, we should at least be able to state we are working on it.

Deputy Michael D. Higgins

I join in the welcome to Tony D'Costa and I thank him and Pax Christi both for this presentation and for others given to previous joint committees on a host of matters, including the US-India nuclear agreement, which always have been well researched. I propose that the joint committee should call on the Department of Foreign Affairs to prepare and publish heads of legislation, not later than early next year, in advance of the Dublin meeting. I so do in complete knowledge of what is involved. It is not an unreasonable demand because models of legislation already exist in Austria and Belgium. In addition, such models are rather short. I was a member of the Cabinet between 1993 and 1997 when the issue of the Ottawa Convention arose. At that time, Ireland was able to prepare legislation in 1996, which was a year before the fundamental meetings took place. This was important because it marked a departure from practice.

In respect of international conventions and international instruments, Ireland has a doctrine of dualism, rather than that of monism, which is used for ratification by some countries. Indeed, some countries ratify international conventions and are not very sincere about their implementation. However, monist theory means that once such instruments have been signed, effectively they come into effect automatically. In the Irish case, we sign and then wait for ratification until domestic law has been put in place. This approach has the merit of being sincere in so far as that one legislates for that for which one has signed up. However, it has the disadvantage of slowing the process and of being slow to comply with the best sentiments.

I refer to the document that Tony D'Costa has mentioned on international law, or international morality as he would put it. In the case of the Ottawa Convention, which dealt with landmines, it was interesting that the convention was known in popular language as the Diana convention. It is also interesting in respect of another of its requirements. It dealt with the production, sale, transfer and transport of landmines and is unusual in so far as it provides for a mandatory inspection regime. In other words, if there is a suggestion that landmines are being transported, one does not have a choice as to whether one inspects as one is required to do so. The Ottawa Convention is extraordinarily strong. I refer to the lessons learned in 1996, when Ireland had its own legislation in place and therefore was able to ratify the convention quickly in 1997.

Another issue arises in the context of taking seriously Tony D'Costa's proposals. The Department of Foreign Affairs briefing can be relied on by members, as always, to be thorough and extensive. However, it does not make a commitment. There is nothing to stop Ireland from legislating in the short term. For example, on the issue of definition, the obvious way to proceed is to have a wider definition — this must be taken seriously — than that which will possibly end up in the final text to emerge from the Oslo process. This is sensible because, for example, the briefing provided to members shows that those countries that already hold cluster munitions in the wider defined sense include the United States, Pakistan, the Republic of Korea, Russia and China. As three of the aforementioned states are members of the Security Council, one is certain to have a problem with definitions, applications and the stockpiles they hold already in respect of their use.

The appropriate international legal way to proceed, which is consistent with the line we took in respect of the Ottawa Convention and with Ireland's historical record regarding the anti-proliferation treaty on nuclear issues, is to continue our honourable participation in, and leadership of, the core group when preparing for the forthcoming conferences. In addition, Ireland should prepare its own legislation with the wider aim of not being constrained by those who will seek limits regarding definition, stockpiling and usage.

A twin track approach should be adopted. This is the reason I am making a specific proposal that the joint committee should call on the Minister for Foreign Affairs to follow a twin track approach. On the one hand, the Government should make all the preparations that I acknowledge already are contained in the Government programme. On the other hand, it should prepare the heads of legislation in advance, in a manner that will enable us to address the wider and more substantial issues. Such legislation is feasible as models are available. In addition, much of the groundwork has been done in sections of the Ottawa Convention that simply can be taken and applied in respect of this challenge. I refer, for example, to provisions dealing with production, sale, transfer and use. The advantage in so doing is that the available model, namely, the Ottawa Convention, is particularly strong and exists as a template that could be used. I make this formal proposal in the hope it will have the support of all members of the joint committee.

Senator David Norris

I welcome Mr. D'Costa who I have heard speak on this issue a number of times, including to the previous joint committee. I welcome his return before the joint committee today. The striking feature of this morning's proceedings is that all three speakers, namely, Deputies Billy Timmins, Michael D. Higgins and Darragh O'Brien, spoke eloquently, clearly and from the same hymn sheet. No discord in this regard was apparent and members appear to be agreed on the devastating nature of these weapons. They are evil in intent because they are directed at a civilian population and have no real effective military application, which is acknowledged by military sources. They are a weapon of terror and, as Deputy Timmins noted, they hit children in particular in a post-conflict scenario. Mr. D'Costa has appended to his statement a couple of eloquent testimonies to this effect.

Mr. Tony D’Costa

At the United Nations General Assembly this year, the Foreign Minister of Austria raised the question of why the disarmament agenda has gone down. That is quite true in many countries. We are facing similar difficulties here because there is very little funding for the amount of work that is required. Many of my colleagues in other countries say that they cannot continue this work because they have families and children and, unfortunately, have abandoned this work. Global military expenditure is increasing. Last year, it was €1,024 billion. It went down a bit after the end of the Cold War but is increasing again. Even a fraction of that money can address the issues of global poverty and the millennium development goals.

We face similar difficulties because there is no budget line in respect of our kind of work. There are certain guidelines in respect to Irish Aid's funding. It has to be "dacable" so it becomes difficult for us to access that funding. Not many organisations are doing this work because there is no funding. Much of the work is done quietly and includes a considerable amount of research and lobby work. There is no money available here for this kind of work. It will be a great support and help if we can get some support from our Government to do this work. At the same time, we work very closely with the Irish Government and have been doing so for many years so we have a very good relationship. However, there is no budget line where we can get any support.

Senator David Norris

How much money are we talking about?

Mr. Tony D’Costa

We are talking between about €50,000 and €60,000 per year.

Senator David Norris

That is very modest.

Chairman

We will write to the Minister and make the request. Has Mr. D'Costa any other points to make? It is not very difficult for him in that sense because everybody is totally in favour of what Pax Christi is doing and highly commends the work it has been and is doing. The Minister has been working fairly assiduously in this area.

Deputy Michael D. Higgins has recommended that, in the first instance, we send a statement to the Minister and that a motion can subsequently be considered. We want to ensure that one way or another, come May, in respect of whether one can get core agreement, and the Minister has played a big part in trying to achieve this, we must be ready to go ahead at that stage. Hence it is important that the heads of the Bill are ready and that one is able to proceed without necessarily upsetting the diplomacy of the work that the Minister might be doing at that time. That is a very appropriate suggestion which we will all support.

I thank Mr. D'Costa for appearing before the committee and for the work he has been doing. We had a fairly good exchange today which brought us back to the subject at a very appropriate time. It is encouraging to learn of the work that is being undertaken by Ireland within the Oslo process to secure a total ban on cluster munitions. I am sure everybody on the committee will join me in supporting the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Dermot Ahern, in his efforts to bring more countries within the Oslo process to ensure that cluster munitions are eradicated from man's arsenal, which is already too destructive. It is quite clear that the committee fully supports the work of Pax Christi and that of the Minister. I again thank Mr. D'Costa for his informative presentation which will be helpful to us in our work.

The joint committee went into private session at 1 p.m. and adjourned at 1.40 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Thursday, 19 December 2007.

JOINT COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS debate - Wednesday, 12 Dec 2007

Cluster Munitions: Discussion with Pax Christi Ireland.

Mr. Tony D’Costa

Mr. Tony D’Costa

Mr. Tony D’Costa

JOINT COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS debate -
Wednesday, 12 Dec 2007