JOINT COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS debate -
Wednesday, 8 Jul 2009

Situation in Sudan: Discussion with Sudanese Ambassador.

Chairman

Regarding the current situation in Sudan, I welcome His Excellency, Mr. Omer Siddig, Sudan's ambassador to Ireland and the United Kingdom. He is accompanied by Dr. Mohammed Abdalla Ahmed, Mr. Azhari Kamal Mohammed, both of whom are counsellors at the embassy, and Mr. Pieter Tesch, chief executive of the Sudan Cultural Society of Britain and Ireland. I welcome them all and thank them for attending.

The committee has taken a keen interest in the situation in Sudan, particularly Darfur, for some time. We are aware that Darfur remains volatile and that the security situation in southern Sudan deteriorated recently. This week, the committee's interest in Darfur has added poignancy, given the abduction of two aid workers from the Irish aid agency, GOAL, namely, Sharon Commins and her Ugandan colleague, Hilda Kawuki. I welcome Ms Deirdre McMahon from GOAL, who is in the Gallery.

The Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Martin, has sent a high-level mission to Sudan to help intensify efforts to secure the release of both women. The Sudanese authorities have been co-operating fully with the mission and are committed to achieving a positive outcome. As everyone may have heard, they believe that they are close to finding the women's exact location. Hopefully, the ambassador will speak in this regard.

We acknowledge the co-operation of the United Nations, the Government of Uganda and those countries the citizens of which have been the victims of abduction. Yesterday, the Secretary General of the UN, Mr. Ban Ki-moon, appeared before the committee. He would have loved more time, but it ran out and he needed to move to his next engagement just as he got into a deep discussion with us. The Secretary General expressed his deep concern at the abduction of Sharon and Hilda and pledged that the UN would provide whatever logistical or other assistance was necessary and that no effort would be spared to help secure their release. We welcome the involvement of the Sudanese state Minister at the Ministry of Humanitarian Affairs, Dr. Abdul-Bagi Al-Jailani, in particular and today's reports that the general area in which Sharon and Hilda are being held has been identified.

The committee is keen to learn of the ambassador's assessment of the situation and to be assured of the continued support of his Government in securing the release of Sharon Commins and Hilda Kawuki. Everything that can be done must be done to ensure their safe and immediate release. We would also be interested in learning about the wider political and humanitarian situation in Sudan and about any progress in the peace process.

Before we commence, I advise witnesses that, whereas Members of the Houses enjoy absolute privilege in respect of utterances made in committee, witnesses do not enjoy that privilege. Accordingly, caution should be exercised, particularly with regard to references of a personal nature. I invite His Excellency to address the committee, following which we will take questions from members.

Deputy Billy Timmins

Briefly before the ambassador begins his contribution, I apologise in advance, as I will need to attend the Dáil for the start of the Lisbon treaty debate. I wish the ambassador well and welcome him to the committee.

Senator David Norris

I must go to another debate but I would prefer if the ambassador would confine himself to addressing the issue of the two missing women and come back another time because the debate will be considerably constrained by the fact that two young women are held hostage and will be much better and freer when that situation is resolved. Our minds are concentrated on that issue, as was the mind of the Secretary General of the United Nations when he addressed this committee yesterday.

Chairman

We will leave that to the members and the ambassador.

H.E. Mr. Omer M.A. Siddig

I thank the Chairman and I am very honoured to be before this committee. The ordeal of the two ladies is a matter of grave concern to the Government of Sudan. It is very disturbed by the kidnap last Friday of two ladies who work for GOAL. The Sudanese Government greatly appreciates the role played by Irish NGOs, particularly GOAL, in Sudan. We in the government do not believe that Sharon Commins and her colleague Hilda Kuwuki deserve such treatment. The kidnapping of the two ladies is a matter of grave concern to us. We deplore it in the strongest terms.

The Government of Sudan took practical steps immediately on hearing that Sharon and her colleague had been kidnapped. The president and vice-presidents established a national crisis management team which comprises all law enforcement bodies, the army, the police, security, local authorities in Darfur and some members of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. They started immediately collecting information and making use of the information provided by the local authorities. In such cases information from local chiefs and local tribes is very important so the government is following that line of inquiry.

The government was happy to see a team from Ireland led by Ambassador Corr, and including Brendan Rogers, and Lieutenant-General Barbour. They are in Khartoum and have travelled in Darfur. They are receiving all assistance from the government. They are free to see whomever they wish. They are kept completely in the picture in respect of the search. We have not yet established where the perpetrators and the ladies are but the search is focusing on an area which is getting smaller and smaller. It is our hope that in the coming few hours or days we will get information or establish contacts with the perpetrators. We have had experience of women being abducted in Darfur. Fortunately those experiences went smoothly, without casualties and the ladies were released. It is our hope that Sharon and her colleague will be released in safety and dignity.

I assure the Chairman and the members of the committee that we hold the safety and dignity of Sharon and her colleague in high esteem. It is in our interests that the two ladies are returned to their families. I plan also to see the family of Sharon Commins to give it the support it needs at this stage. When the president knew that I was coming here he instructed me to go personally to see Sharon's parents and give them my support and that of the president.

People may ask whether it is worrying that until now we have had no contact with or information on the kidnappers. That is not worrying. In the last such incident we went for four or five days without contact with those who kidnapped the French lady but later with the involvement of local chiefs we were able to establish contact with them and to release the two hostages. I hope this will be the case again. It is not usual for ladies to be kidnapped but when they are kidnapped it is for a ransom. Negotiating to pay a ransom is dangerous so we do not do that. Instead we use the influence of the local chiefs and communities to secure the release of the hostages. I hope this will be the case again. I assure the Chairman of the full co-operation of my government in solving this problem and bringing it to a safe conclusion. I know that it is very distressing to the committee as it is to our government because Sharon and her colleague should not have received such treatment given the kind of work they were doing in Sudan. We hope to secure their release very soon.

Senator Ivor Callely

I welcome and appreciate our earlier exchange and discussion on Sharon Commins and her colleague Hilda Kuwuki. Sharon Commins is from my area in Clontarf and there is deep concern and anxiety there for her immediate and safe release. I am pleased to note from our exchange that the Sudanese Government is treating this abduction seriously and has put in place measures such as the crisis management team and so on. I also welcome the ambassador's commitment to meeting Sharon's parents.

The ambassador mentioned that the Sudanese authorities have experience of dealing with such situations. They were successfully involved in three previous abductions and achieved the hostages' release. Is the ambassador saying that in each of these experiences that the government has gained its intelligence and the release of the hostages through the tribal chiefs, without any ransom or other leverage? Is this how the authorities would envisage the release of Sharon and Hilda? We have received some conflicting reports. Some of the Irish media have indicated that the authorities have located where Sharon is being held. Is the ambassador saying that it has not quite been located but that the region has been identified? Has this been achieved through working with the Sudanese authorities or with the tribes and chiefs in the area? While we are conscious that what is said here is being recorded and monitored can the ambassador give us any tighter timeframe than a matter of hours or days for the likely clear identification of Sharon's location?

Deputy Michael D. Higgins

I welcome the assistance of the Sudanese Government in the event that is in everybody's mind, the kidnapping of Sharon Commins and her colleague Hilda Kuwuki. Everything we do here must be geared towards assisting in their speedy release. It is a terrible time for those who were taken against their will and for their families, colleagues in GOAL and those in Irish Aid. The ambassador knows my view on this, it is immensely significant for Irish Aid because ts relationship with conflict zones must be judged. I am conscious that for this person, Sharon Commins, a decision was made to stay in difficulties where others could not. The level of commitment to the people of Sudan is enormous.

We are all concerned. I am the spokesman for an Opposition party and I want to emphasise that the Government, the Opposition and all shades of political opinion are as one on securing their early release. We were pleased to know, therefore, that there would not be reliance on the diplomatic channels alone but that a team was travelling to Khartoum and beyond and would liaise with local sources of intelligence. I welcome that but we must not waste a single minute. We need an assurance on the safety of the two women.

Other implications arise as a result of this on the question of Ireland and its foreign policy. Aid is a central plank of our policy and we have deliberately chosen a particular relationship with African countries and within the areas of greatest need. Our aid has been untied and our humanitarian relief work has been unconditional in its commitment to those affected. We have a responsibility, however, as parliamentarians for our citizens.

I welcome the ambassador's assurances that his Government shares our concerns. It is useful that a strategic team has been established on the ground which is liaising with the multi-disciplinary team that has been sent from Ireland. I hope it brings a speedy resolution.

Senator Norris has mentioned our difficulties in moving on to discussing other issues that affect Sudan, Ireland and Africa when we are preoccupied with this issue. The messages that we on the committee have received, and given the nature of the NGO that enjoys immense public support, show the public reaction is of such concern that it has dislodged every other consideration. There are many other areas we want to discuss but this is of particular urgency. I hope we will receive news that will be specific about the identity of those who are holding the women. It is both positive and negative that they are both women, it is a kidnapping out of culture. There are two sides to it and I hope the ambassador's positive assurance goes a small way to reassure the families involved.

Senator Ann Ormonde

I welcome the ambassador, his colleagues, the representatives from GOAL and the assurances on the up to date position regarding the two hostages. It is sad to think young girls should be kidnapped while they are working. We have sent out an expert team and everything is being done at a local level to identify where they are being held.

If they are not being held for ransom, what was the motive for capturing the two women? What is to be gained from this kidnapping? We must be discretionary because this is sensitive but we must reassure their families. Can the ambassador tell us anything more about the motivation? That will help to get their release with safety and dignity.

Senator Dominic Hannigan

I welcome the ambassador to the committee. There is no doubting the depth of our concern on this issue. I am reassured by the comments of the ambassador about using all of his influence to bring about the release of the hostages.

The ambassador said he would see the family in the next day or so. Presumably they will be regularly briefed as long as the situation continues. Is there anything else we can do to help? Can we bring any more influence to bear?

Deputy Tom Kitt

I welcome the ambassador to the committee and join in saying that our singular focus must be the safe release of Sharon Commins and her Ugandan colleague. We all appreciate the distress for their families at this time. Anything we can do as a committee to assist the ambassador or the team of Irish officials out there, we will do. I have met some of the officials in the past.

There were encouraging reports in today's edition of The Irish Times that the Sudanese Minister of Humanitarian Affairs has stated that it has been possible to locate the area where the women are being held. Can the ambassador tell us more about that?

This discussion also gives us the chance to ask about the general security situation in this area. I was Minister of State with responsibility for overseas aid on two occasions. My last visit to Sudan was to this region in 2004. I went from El Fasher to Khartoum, the place where Ms Commins was working. I know the territory. I was advised by officials at the time not to undertake the journey but I went with my colleagues from Irish Aid and we broke down on the way. We were very concerned about the security situation and I have no doubt that it is still the same because the area is not under the control of the Sudanese Government. We were advised not to have Sudanese Government security with us because we would be target of rebel groups. Could the ambassador touch on that issue? Our focus should be to get these two people released as quickly as possible.

I commend these aid workers, having witnessed what they were doing when we finally got to Kutum, namely, helping young children with nutrition and medical assistance. We can be so proud of the work that agencies such as GOAL are doing. As others have said, these are people who are working in very precarious conditions and they deserve our support. Clearly, they also deserve the greatest possible security that can be provided. Can the ambassador give us some reassurance on the release of the aid workers and in the context of the Irish Aid effort we would like assurances in regard to the security conditions in this region. I know the area well and what it is like. Clearly the ambassador is working with all the various tribes on which I commend him because we want that communication. The people we have sent out are of the highest calibre. We received assurances yesterday from the Secretary General of the United Nations that all his personnel would be working on this issue. I hope and pray these people will be released very soon. In the context of they and their colleagues continuing to work in these areas I would like assurances on the security of our personnel abroad.

H.E. Mr. Omer M. A. Siddig

I thank the Chairman. I thank the Senators and Deputies for their questions. I reiterate that I am equally concerned at the situation. The concern I express here is the concern of the entire Sudanese nation who are shocked by this incident.

Senator Callely asked about assistance to the tribal chiefs. As members may be aware, Darfur is a vast area, perhaps the size of France, and the Government depends mainly on local chiefs. It is a sort of decentralised administration and the local chiefs know their areas and can get information from individuals in the tribes. They know exactly who entered the area and who left the area. With information from local chiefs, we would direct our attentions to focus our search.

On the issue of a ransom — this is a personal impression, not a Government position — when ladies are kidnapped the perpetrators always look for a ransom. In Sudan a kidnapped lady has never been killed or harmed but retained until a ransom is negotiated. Usually a ransom is not paid but with the involvement of the local chiefs and local communities the ladies are released. I hope the same happens in this case.

I received a telephone call this morning from a person in Khartoum who stated that the location of the ladies was not yet known nor the name of the village or co-ordinates. The focus of the search is getting narrower and ultimately we will know exactly where they are.

Deputy Michael D. Higgins asked about Irish aid. Irish aid is something we really appreciate in Sudan. The €160 million that we receive from Ireland is helping to change life for needy people in Sudan and we want that assistance to continue. We are emerging from conflicts and we need all the assistance we receive from the donor community. We have very good relations with Ireland and Irish Aid. It is our hope that this unfortunate incident involving Sharon Commins will not leave any shadows about co-operation between Sudan and the assistance we receive from Ireland through Irish Aid. This is our hope. On the issue of the identification of perpetrators, it is still very early to establish who committed this heinous crime.

Senator Ormonde asked about the motives of this man. I wish I knew him but the motivation could be a ransom. It is very rare in Sudan that a lady is harmed or kidnapped. What is to be gained? There is nothing to be gained. It is a negative thing and should not have happened to those two ladies. They left their families to provide assistance to needy people and do not deserve such treatment. It is very unfortunate.

Senator Hannigan asked what is to be done by the committee. There is a good deal that can be done by the committee. Following the giving of information and assurances to the family, I will ensure, from our side, that whatever information I have will be provided to the committee because you are the representatives of the Irish people and deserve to know the developments at each and every turn.

Deputy Tom Kitt asked about the location. So far the Government does not have the specific point, according to the co-ordinator of services but the area is getting smaller. The general security situation has improved a good deal since 2004 when the Deputy visited the area. Generally, Kutum, the area where the ladies were kidnapped, is safe. During the past three or four years no major incident took place in that area. We are really shocked at how those people stormed the GOAL headquarters and kidnapped the ladies. Some 95% of Darfur is safe. The unsafe areas are in pockets along the Chadian border. To prove that, people from IDP camps have started voluntary repatriation to their villages in northern Darfur and western and eastern Darfur so the situation has improved more than heretofore.

I want to reiterate the concern and dedication of my Government to do everything possible to ensure the safe release of Sharon Commins and her colleague.

Chairman

I thank the ambassador. He mentioned Irish Aid. It is true that Irish Aid in Darfur has been particularly helpful and has had a substantial effect there. We deeply appreciate the work done by our NGOs and the UN with whom we co-operate in the area. Sharon and Hilda represent the best of what the Irish have to offer. That is why it was so disappointing that this incident should happen because as the ambassador has said they were just doing the job and were not involved in anything else and were not causing any problems. They were directly involved in helping the people. Some of us met the ambassador before the meeting and we know that his President is extremely concerned. Brendan Rogers is in the region and on top of the job with Irish Aid. He is with the mission and is familiar with the situation.

I thank the ambassador and the delegation for appearing before the committee. He has heard a strong and clear message of alarm and concern from the members of the committee for the safety and welfare of Sharon Commins and Hilda Kuwuki. We are grateful for the interest the ambassador and his government have taken in their case and the efforts of the Sudanese authorities to date. I ask the ambassador to convey this message of concern to his president and the Sudanese authorities as well as our appreciation of the work done to date. We hope and pray this work will be successful. We also seek these efforts to be intensified to secure their safe and immediate release.

Perhaps the ambassador will attend the committee on another date in the not too distant future to discuss the other matters members wish to discuss. The committee has a deep interest in Africa and, through Irish Aid, we have concentrated particularly on Africa. Sudan very much requires assistance for its development. The ambassador is based in London, and, therefore, he is not far from us. Perhaps he will visit us again to continue our discussions on the wider issues relating to the Sudan. I thank him for attending at such short notice. Sharon's parents will express their thanks for the work he is doing at present and I wish him every success with it.

H.E. Mr. Omer M. A. Siddig

I thank the Chairman. I appreciate that.

The joint committee went into private session at 3.50 p.m. and adjourned at 3.55 p.m. sine die.