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JOINT COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS debate -
Wednesday, 24 Mar 2010

Passport Office: Discussion with Department of Foreign Affairs.

This meeting has been arranged to discuss the current situation in the Passport Office. I welcome the delegates from the Department of Foreign Affairs: Mr. David Cooney, Secretary General; Mr. Ray Bassett, assistant secretary in the consular and passport division; Mr. Barrie Robinson, assistant secretary in the corporate services division; Mr. Joe Nugent, director of passport services; and Mr. Noel Kilkenny, head of human resources.

Members know the Minister is away today on very urgent business. The Secretary General and the top officials from the Department of Foreign Affairs were invited to attend today because of the urgency of this matter. I am glad the Secretary General and his colleagues have agreed to attend at relatively short notice. It is only fitting that they do so considering the gravity of the situation at the Passport Office, just outside Leinster House, where dozens of people have been queuing since very early in the morning, sometimes in the rain. Apparently there are over 160 people queuing at present. This has been happening since last Friday.

We understand an industrial dispute is at the root of the current passport service crisis. There have been cross-party calls on the CPSU and other unions involved in the dispute to resume full duties to make the Passport Office operational again. However, management also has an important part to play. As a cross-party joint committee, we are keen to hear what measures senior management has taken to restore the passport service.

The passport service has been brought up to a very high standard and approximately 99% of passports have been issued within the deadline set. This is excellent and was commented upon by independent examiners. The Passport Office staff and management must be congratulated on this. The problem is that there is now a very major difficulty arising. There has been a great deal of criticism of the management of the queues outside the Passport Office. People were left standing needlessly for hours, sometimes in the wrong queue. Surely this can be dealt with. Other arrangements could possibly be made for those people queuing who are very concerned. We would like to hear what management feels it could do in this regard.

The passport machine in Molesworth Street has technical problems but I understand there is a second set of equipment. Passports, once approved and cleared, can be printed in Balbriggan and issued fairly quickly. What is being done to repair the machine in Molesworth Street? Is it correct that passports that are passed and cleared can be printed in Balbriggan, even if this means a short delay?

Have management and staff representatives in the Passport Office had discussions on resolving the collapse in the service and the management of the backlog, which is increasing? Is the backlog largely because of an imposed maximum quota of applications that the unions are allowing individual members to process daily? If so, there must be spare capacity for staff to undertake urgent passport despatch and telephone duties as they will not be fully employed in checking applications? What mechanisms have the delegates put in place to identify which applicants have immediate travel needs? In reality, most people have urgent needs that have featured for some time. People say going on a holiday is not urgent but it can be exceptionally urgent for certain families. This is the case especially for those with children and now that the Easter break is approaching.

Mr. Simon Nugent, chief executive of the Irish Travel Agents Association, is present today in the Visitors Gallery. Yesterday he issued a statement claiming "this is a problem that can be solved and be solved relatively easily if workers and management were to talk face to face." We understand national talks, presumably involving both sides, are under way and that there is a great effort being made to bring them to a conclusion. We understand the conclusions will focus on what will happen in the coming year. They are crucial but the question of internal talks between management and staff representatives is also very important. Will Mr. Cooney or a member of his delegation comment on this? Members will have other questions.

Whereas Members of the Houses enjoy absolute privilege in respect of utterances made in committee, witnesses do not enjoy absolute privilege. Accordingly, caution should be exercised, particularly with regard to references of a personal nature.

I invite the Secretary General of the Department of Foreign Affairs to address the committee. As everybody present knows, the Secretary General is the top person in the Department under the Minister.

Mr. David Cooney

I thank the committee for giving management the opportunity to give a managerial and, I hope, honest and accurate perspective on the circumstances in the Passport Office. On behalf of the Minister, I express regret that he could not be here in person. He has 12 hours of meetings in Paris today. He has a meeting with his French counterpart, Mr. Bernard Kouchner, which has already been postponed once, and he has investment meetings with pharmaceutical, IT and engineering companies. He is also attending a meeting of the local Global Irish Network and therefore has a very full day. He would very much have liked to attend this meeting and issued a statement this morning that sets out very clearly his views on the matter under discussion.

I apologise to our customers, the Irish people, for the suffering and inconvenience they have had to endure over recent weeks, particularly over recent days, as a result of industrial action at the Passport Office. As somebody who is proud to be a civil servant and to serve the Irish people, I find the present situation deeply upsetting. I never expected to see the Irish people treated in this way by the very people who are paid to serve them.

We have a passport service of which we can, in normal times, be proud. The passport service has been a model of an efficient and customer-friendly public service. This high-grade service has been delivered by the very same civil servants who are now engaged in industrial action. These are colleagues, some of whom I have worked with for over 30 years. They are decent, hard-working people and many of them are still endeavouring to assist customers as best they can within the restrictions laid down by the leadership of the unions. This industrial action is part of public service-wide action in protest against public service pay cuts. It is not caused by any internal dispute within the Department of Foreign Affairs.

I do not intend to discuss the rights and wrongs of the public service pay cuts, although I have made clear to staff that I do not support the industrial action, nor do I intend to comment on the wider issue of the negotiations between the Government and public service unions. I would like to use this opportunity to inform the public of what has happened and why it finds itself in its current position. Industrial action in the Passport Office by CPSU and PSEU members began on 19 January as part of action across the Civil Service. This action did not constitute a work to rule, but took the form of a refusal to carry out core work activities, such as periodic refusal to answer phones and to staff public counters, as well as the introduction of production quotas set by the unions, rather than by management.

The management response was determined centrally by the Department of Finance, on instruction from the Government, which, understandably, was anxious to avoid confrontation or escalation, with a view to entering into negotiations with the public service unions on a range of issues. As committee members know, these negotiations are ongoing and seem to be making progress.

Particular difficulties arose with regard to the Passport Office, which adjusts staff resources to meet fluctuating demand through granting overtime and recruitment of temporary clerical assistants to deal with work over the peak Easter and summer periods. It is normal practice for the Department to recruit temporary clerical officers, TCOs, to meet seasonal demand. In early February, the Department of Finance sanctioned recruitment of 50 TCOs and we were in negotiations with it to obtain sanction for the recruitment of an additional 35. However, on 15 February, the unions announced that they were blacking co-operation with TCOs, even though this has been a normal aspect of the operation of the Passport Office.

In late February, the Department sanctioned the payment of overtime. Again, this is a standard arrangement in the Passport Office to deal with a seasonal surge in demand. Some 75 members of staff worked overtime on Saturday 27 February, processing 1,700 applications. Unions immediately instructed their members not to work overtime. Only three members of staff volunteered for overtime the following weekend. This took place well before the CPSU introduced its blanket Civil Service wide ban on overtime on 15 March. Unions also refused to deal with applications transferred from London or to allow the transfer of staff between divisions. This is normal practice. As a result of the action by the CPSU and PSEU, a backlog in applications began to build up.

On 4 March, the Department appealed to customers to submit applications through the passport express channel and asked them not to attend the public office other than in cases where travel was necessary for reasons of emergency. We also announced that the 10-day guarantee for processing of applications submitted through passport express and its Northern Ireland equivalent was suspended. In an effort to ease the difficulties arising for customers, the Department also announced that the requirement for applicants seeking to renew their passports to submit their existing passport was suspended in cases where the existing passport was still valid. This would allow customers to continue to travel while awaiting a new passport. However, CPSU headquarters immediately issued an instruction to its members not to implement this provision and to return any application meeting the revised requirements to the applicant. The Department informed staff that such action would violate the terms of the Passport Act, but the CPSU maintained its instruction.

A further setback occurred with the extensive flooding of the Molesworth Street Office on Tuesday of last week. This resulted in dislocation of staff and one passport production machine being put out of action. I thank the OPW for the magnificent effort it made to restore the offices. Through its efforts and with the co-operation of staff the affected offices have now been reoccupied. The passport production machine may be damaged beyond repair, but sufficient capacity exists in Balbriggan to meet foreseeable demand.

Matters came to a head on Friday of last week when, against the background of growing numbers seeking to attend the public office, the PSEU and CPSU informed us of their intention to close the counters in the public office at 1 p.m. Management took the initiative, out of courtesy to our customers, to put out a notice to this effect, in an effort to avoid customers making often long journeys to the public office only to find it closed. A situation developed, with large numbers of people queuing outside the office and some inside refusing to leave without their passports. Management appealed to the PSEU and the CPSU to suspend their decision to close the public office. The PSEU agreed, but the CPSU refused. Management was told that an official from headquarters was coming to the Molesworth Street office to review the situation. I waited at the office in the hope of being able to engage this official, but in the event, the official did not come into the office and the shutdown went ahead.

Subsequently, a threat was broadcast on live radio against passport service staff by a customer who refused to leave the premises until he received his passport. This situation was defused by the direct intervention of the head of the passport service who has frequently been obliged go out to the front of the office to explain the situation to angry members of the public who have been denied service through industrial action. The situation continues to be difficult, as is evident. Yesterday and today more and more people have come to the office. They are frustrated and understandably angry about the treatment they have received. I will ask the head of the Passport Office service to update the committee on the situation.

Management met the CPSU on several occasions in recent days and at a meeting yesterday evening, it presented its proposal to amend its industrial action to facilitate immediate travel. The Department sought to engage, on the basis of the promise made by general secretary of the CPSU, Mr. Horan, to work with management to reduce the backlog in passport applications. We outlined to the union the measures that would be necessary for this purpose. These include: cessation of the present industrial action; lifting the ban on overtime; and recruitment of temporary clerical staff. This is an annual seasonal measure to prevent the accumulation of arrears. We also requested flexibility in the assignment of staff to pressure points and in the allocation of work to the different passport offices. We urged the CPSU to lift the industrial action relating to answering telephones to enable us to engage with the public and identify urgent applications.

I am sorry to say that the decision announced by the CPSU to extend fast-track criteria to include all immediate travel, while welcome, is too little too late. It will simply result in prioritisation of some applications at the expense of others and could increase the surge of customers to the public office. The unions have brought about a backlog so large that all applications are now urgent. Their proposal would not result in the issuance of a single additional passport and would do nothing to reduce the backlog, which currently stands at almost 50,000 applications. What we need from the unions is that they allow their members the flexibility to enable the passport offices to increase passport production. This can only be achieved in the same way as it is achieved every other year, by the deployment of additional temporary staff and by working overtime.

I thank the Chairman and committee members for listening. There is more I could say about the deportment of the unions, particularly the CPSU, on this matter. They have missed no opportunity to seek to transfer the blame for the current crisis on to management. However, my main concern is for the members of the public who are suffering so grievously as a result of this industrial action. It behoves me, therefore, not to say anything that would make it more difficult to bring this regrettable action to an end.

I will now ask Mr. Joe Nugent, head of the passport service, to update the committee on the current situation in the passport office and brief it on the measures we have identified which, with the co-operation of staff and the unions, we can take to reduce the inconvenience to the public.

Mr. Joe Nugent

The situation for passport customers this morning was very ugly. The largest queues I have seen in my short period as head of the passport service developed overnight. People came to the office and queued long hours in the rain and cold in expectation of receiving a passport today. It is difficult to do anything but conclude that the level of increase in the queue is a result of that expectation, following a commitment made by the CPSU last night that it would amend its practices. Unfortunately, this commitment has not been backed up on the ground by the necessary flexibility that would enable us deliver on the promise made by the CPSU last night. Flexibility of staff movement to assist in processing urgent applications is needed, but that flexibility has not been provided to us today. In addition, despite a commitment that staff would operate a triage service on the queue outside the building, no service is being delivered by the CPSU in that regard. It is inevitable, therefore, that we have large numbers of angry people in the queue. These have been put into an unacceptable position. Like the Secretary General of the Department, I can only apologise on behalf of the passport service for them being put in that position.

In recent days, on the back of the ever increasing queues, we have sought to identify measures that will limit the worst effects of the current position. We are in the process of sourcing an additional public area in the general vicinity to ensure that at least people would not be have to queue outside and that they would be able to wait in a warm and comfortable environment where they can be dealt with. However, flexibility on the part of the CPSU will be required to provide such a service. We have not seen such flexibility to date and unless that situation changes it will be difficult for us to do much more for the people who have been put in this unacceptable position.

We have seen a very significant increase in the volume of applications in recent days. At the start of this week the number of applications to be processed in the system was of the order of 40,000 to 44,000 and in the past few days the number has increased substantially to just under 50,000, which was the numbers of applications as I left the office this morning. Clearly, there is a demand for immediate delivery. It is difficult to identify of those 50,000 applications the applicants that have the most urgent and immediate need. We can do so much but without the flexibility and assistance of the CPSU in agreeing to withdraw its industrial action, it will be very difficult for us to deliver on that service.

We have also sought to see what other measures could be taken in the context of producing different types of travel documents or extending the validity of documents. In this regard we are governed by a series of international commitments and agreements regarding the validity and standards of documents. Under international agreements the maximum validity of a passport is ten years, therefore, it would be impossible for us to extend automatically the validity of passports in that respect. As the Secretary General has outlined, for those whose passports have yet to expire, we have removed the requirement that they must submit their original passport with their application. This will enable them at least to be able to travel during the short period it will take for their passport renewal application to be processed. However, even that minor measure was met with opposition from the CPSU, and that has not been helpful.

We have examined the possibility of using what are called emergency travel certificates. These are very small paper documents but they are not accepted in certain parts of the world. One would certainly not be able to travel to the United States with one of these documents. These are single trip, get home-type documents and would not be of use in the current circumstances.

To echo what the Secretary General said, the resolution to this matter is in the hands of the CPSU in terms of the withdrawal of industrial action. If the industrial action was withdrawn, we would be in a position to respond in a far more flexible way to meet the reasonable demands of the Irish travelling public.

The recruitment of temporary seasonal staff, as is normal at this time of year, and the availability of overtime would have an impact on our processing capacity and it would allow us to be in a position to meet in some way the demands of the travelling public.

I apologise for what people are experiencing outside the office as we speak. I give an assurance that we are trying to do everything we possibility can to alleviate that intolerable position.

Mr. Nugent said that the office is seeking to obtain a warm comfortable area to ensure people would not have to queue in the open and that the space would be nearby either in a hotel or some other facility nearby. He said that the CPSU would have to show a degree of flexibility for that to happen and that such a request has been made but it has been refused. Is that the position?

Mr. Joe Nugent

We have not made a formal approach on that issue but we have seen no flexibility from the CPSU to date regarding some of the other measures we have sought to put in place.

Mr. David Cooney

We have been in discussions today regarding a site we hope to be able to use in the vicinity. While we have not had co-operation to date, it would wrong to accuse the CPSU of not co-operating because we have not approached it on this matter. We have identified a site. Our thinking is that we would like to get people off the street into this more comfortable environment where they could take a ticket for a particular service, whether to apply for or collect a passport; we could have three different categories of people. In those cases, they could even leave the facility to carry out other business and return later. In doing this, we would be trying to minimise the inconvenience for people. We very much hope that the unions will co-operate with this proposal in order that we can minimise the disruption for people. However, it is very important to make it clear that this is not a panacea for what is wrong. It will get people off the streets but it will not speed up the issuing of passports. We have a backlog of 50,000 applications and that is the real issue.

Am I right in thinking that if the work is done internally to have the passports ready for processing by the machine, which is currently out of order, they can be processed in Balbriggan, which would only involve a few hours delay rather than anything else?

Mr. Joe Nugent

That is correct.

I thank Mr. Cooney, Mr. Nugent and their officials for coming here at such short notice. This discussion is particularly important in light of the statement issued last night by the CPSU that gave people the impression that urgent applications would be dealt with. All of us as public representatives have been contacted by constituents who are extremely concerned about this matter. As the Chairman said, this matter is an emergency for anybody who has a holiday booked.

It is interesting to hear that the CPSU will not permit flexibility in terms of the transfer of staff or the taking on of temporary staff sanctioned by the Department of Finance, which I understand amounts to 85 in total. The union will not permit its members to participate in sanctioned overtime, which would be a standard practice in the approach to the peak season. If the industrial action was withdrawn today, having regard to the 50,000 applications pending, how long would it take for the office to return to delivering a normal service and how much easier would it be to identify the emergency applications, namely, the applicants who are due to travel in the very near future? The witnesses might deal with those two questions first following which I have two further questions.

I would like the witnesses to deal with a number of questions together if they do not mind.

I will conclude on these questions. No more than Mr. Cooney, I do not want to go into too much detail because I do not want to make the situation any more difficult than it is. Is the CPSU engaging with Mr. Cooney and management on this matter as we speak? I got a sense from what Mr. Cooney said that the PSEU seems to be in a better position and seems to realise the gravity of this situation with hundreds of people queuing on the street and people travelling from the 32 counties to Molesworth Street in the expectation of being able to collect a passport with some of them are queuing overnight. What is the current level of engagement?

My final question relates to the processing of passports and the notion put out by the unions that much of this difficulty has been brought about by mismanagement by management, to which I do not subscribe, and the difficulty arising from the machine in Molesworth Street that is not working. There is a processing centre in Balbriggan in my constituency where there are two processing machines. What has been the impact of what the union has said about difficulties arising from the flooding in Molesworth Street that has contributed to the backlog of applications, or has the backlog accrued from the industrial action that has been ongoing since 19 January?

Citizens are entitled to passports and travel documentation. They have a right to freedom to travel and their rights are being infringed upon by the CPSU and its members who are engaged in this action. Another important element of this matter is that jobs are on the line. Mr. Cooney mentioned the Irish Travel Agents Association in his opening statement. Travel agents who are finding it extremely difficult to cope have come under pressure from their clients to give refunds because they are not allowed travel as they do not have a passport. That is putting them under ferocious pressure to refund money to clients in an industry that is already suffering as we speak.

As Deputies and Senators know, we have agreed to keep our contributions to a maximum of three minutes each.

It is important to realise the reason we are here today. This dispute has its origins in the Government's failure to manage the public finances, which has been demonstrated by the cutbacks in public sector pay. Fuel was added to the fire by the fact that the Government hit everybody across the board. Fine Gael wanted pay cuts to start at those earning €30,000 plus. More fuel was added to the fire, however, when the pay cuts that were to have applied to higher salary levels were reversed. This is what has caused the anger. We are facing a difficult situation and the treatment of the general public in this respect is outrageous and totally unacceptable. There is an implicit right to travel in the Constitution as well as a right to hold a passport. This is also an explicit right under the terms of the European Convention on Human Rights to which Ireland is a signatory.

The Minister for Foreign Affairs has done very little to date to address this situation. Two sides are at fault, namely, the Minister and the CPSU. From what I have seen and heard, the union is blackmailing workers in the Passport Office. That office is one of the best examples of public sector reform in recent years. I know that in the last few weeks, Mr. Nugent has been working day and night to try to resolve this problem. He has provided an excellent service over the years, but it is terrible to see such a facility brought into disrepute by this action. Incorrect information and a lot of untruths have been put out.

Mr. Nugent referred to extending the validity period for passports, which is mentioned in section 9 of the Passport Act 2008. However, that seems to be a non-runner due to international agreements with the International Civil Aviation Organisation.

I would like to explore the details of the travel certificate provided for under section 15 of the Act. Mr. Nugent said that some countries do not accept it, but it can be used on a once-off basis in others. Could we not come to some sort of agreement, particularly with our European colleagues, whereby a travel certificate would suffice? Is there room for scope on that issue? I believe there is.

I understand that the CPSU has given strike notice. If this action continues or escalates we must examine a mechanism for providing people with passports, which is the main aim. What are the options for outsourcing this facility? We cannot go on like this, nor can we allow such a situation to exist in future. My understanding is that the Dutch have a privatised passport service, so perhaps Mr. Nugent could elaborate on that. Some other countries have privatised sections of their passport services, and I would welcome any information on that also.

What is the situation in the Cork Passport Office? Do exactly the same problems exist there? Mr. Nugent mentioned notice to staff with effect from yesterday. Has anybody who was rostered to do something, failed to do it? If so, will pay be deducted from them? Perhaps Mr. Nugent can fill us in on that.

A young individual, Mr. Colm Gillick, who is due to attend his brother's wedding in Thailand at the weekend, chained himself to the railings at the Passport Office. That is evidence of increasing public frustration. Many people who are scheduled to attend or participate in sporting fixtures abroad, in addition to those involved in business and commercial activities, cannot travel because of this situation which is totally unacceptable.

The CPSU says that it was primarily the overtime ban and staff shortages that created the backlog. Can Mr. Nugent confirm that temporary workers have been taken on annually, because this is a peak period involving 20,000 passports per week? Are we in the peak period now? This time last year, were temporary workers taken on and was there overtime? Can he also confirm that the CPSU is blocking this? If so, the union's statement of yesterday rings hollow, as do its crocodile tears. The way it is treating the public is an absolute disgrace.

I would be interested to hear the witnesses' views on outsourcing. Yesterday, Theresa Dwyer of the CPSU said that it was primarily the overtime ban and staff shortages that created the backlog. Considering what we are being told — that union members were instructed by their unions not to do overtime — there is some discrepancy there. Obviously, the assistant general secretary of the CPSU is telling us and the public lies. The union leadership is trying to use a campaign of misinformation to show themselves as victims while they were trying to co-operate. It is quite clear, however, that they instructed their own members not to co-operate with anyone doing overtime.

As regards the technical aspects, I would like to hear about the Cork Passport Office. A number of my constituents are being told their passports will be ready on Thursday. If so, does that mean the passports will be in Cork on Thursday, or in Balbriggan? If they arrive at the Cork office on Friday, will they be told "Sorry, they are still up in Balbriggan"?

The website is still working, which is amazing given the number of people who are currently tracking their passports. When it says "application approved" does it mean that one can go down to the Passport Office, queue up and ask for a passport? What is the practical process involved in that regard? When it says that an application received is being checked does it mean that a person would be wasting his or her time at the Passport Office?

I appreciate the efforts being made by all the staff at the Department of Foreign Affairs in trying to get people off the streets. Citizens have had to suffer through a night of rain because of the CPSU. The people in that Passport Office are being forced into action, but their leadership is serving them badly. They are discrediting unions and their members all over the country. I would be interested to hear the answers to those questions.

I would like to thank the people who have come to us at short notice today from the Department of Foreign Affairs. As some speakers have already said, we should not lose sight of a specific, important fact — that it is a constitutional right to travel and have access to a passport. In 1978, I represented somebody in the case in which the President of the High Court, Mr. Justice Finlay, declared that right. That right has been recognised ever since. What is happening at present is a gross violation of the constitutional rights of citizens of this country. I appreciate what is being described to us today, but I am concerned by the attitude which is contributing to the difficulties we now have. I am not saying this, in any way, as an attack on the individuals before us, but in the context of their representing the approach taken by the Government.

Anyone driving into Leinster House today should feel ashamed at the way in which the Government has failed to manage the issuing of passports. We are seeing gross incompetence and a lack of backbone by the Government, taken together with gross irresponsibility and bloody-mindedness by an ideologically-driven union leadership.

I sympathise and appreciate the difficulties in which Mr. Nugent finds himself. However, to summarise what he and Mr. Cooney said, it ultimately boiled down to the fact that the resolution of all this is in the hands of the CPSU. Who is governing this country? Are the CPSU and other unions governing the country, or is it the elected Government, whether or not I approve of the way it approaches most things? It seems we are being told that the citizens of this State and the Government are suppliants in the hands of a union intent on industrial action with no consideration for the individual circumstances of those seeking passports.

It goes further than that. The Government has a constitutional duty to protect the rights of citizens of this State; it is not a suppliant. This dispute should not be allowed to continue indefinitely until the goodwill of the CPSU results in it ceasing the action that is taking place. Everyone is walking on glass for fear that they may say something that will further upset the CPSU. This is an abdication of Government responsibility. There are courses of action open to the Government and to the citizens of this State. As yet, neither has chosen to take that route. However, both courses of action, particularly the second, have serious implications for both the State and taxpayers.

The first course of action relates to the fact that people have a constitutional right to obtain passports. Citizens are entitled to such a service and the State is obliged to provide it. The industrial action that is taking place has seen employees — either under pressure from their union or else in agreement with the way it is managing the situation — withholding services they are not entitled to withhold. There is nothing to stop the Government going before the courts to obtain an injunction to prevent the unions involved from interfering with the constitutional rights of individual citizens to obtain passports and to travel. There is an obligation on the Government to protect those rights.

More seriously for taxpayers, it is not generally realised that people who are obliged to queue outside the Passport Office, that travel agents who fear they will be at a financial loss, that the individuals who in recent days paid for flights, for either business or holiday purposes, and that those who are unemployed and who are leaving the State because they hope to obtain employment elsewhere have, as a result of the tyranny of union action, been confined to these shores. There is a remedy open to these people. How will the State cope if all of those entitled to passports commence making applications to the High Court for mandatory injunctions to the effect that those passports be issued? The State has no defence in that regard. It also has no defence in respect of compensation claims from those who lost money as a consequence of the industrial action or from people who seek damages for the distress they have been caused.

Apart from depriving individuals of the right to travel and restricting the freedom of movement that people are guaranteed under the Constitution, this dispute could cost taxpayers if not millions then certainly hundreds of thousands of euro in compensation. The State should be seeking an injunction not only to defend people's right to travel but also to protect taxpayers from claims of the type to which I refer.

I have absolutely no doubt that any individual who has paid to travel outside the State, who wishes to exercise his or her right to do so and who has, within a reasonable period, applied for a passport but who has been denied one could make application to the courts and would be granted the appropriate court orders. I expect that prior to court hearings into such cases the State would do everything possible to ensure that those taking proceedings were issued with their passports.

I am not satisfied with regard to what has been stated by our guests. I appreciate the difficulties involved. However, it is an outrage that people have been obliged to queue outside the Passport Office and that those who have waited weeks for passports cannot obtain updated information. The remedy that is now being pursued involves where to house the people who are queuing. It appears to be the case that no other course of action can be pursued until the CPSU and the PSEU change tack. I do not believe that is sufficient. It is time the Government did its job. It is also time that citizens obtained access to the passports to which they are entitled and that their constitutional right to travel be afforded the respect it deserves by both Government and the unions.

On a point of clarification, certain members are playing party politics while solutions are being sought.

We are not playing party politics. This is a serious issue. Hundreds of people are queuing outside the Passport Office.

Deputy Timmins stated that Fine Gael would not have imposed the levy on anyone earning under €30,000. Is there anyone in the Passport Office who earns more than that amount?

I call Senator Hannigan.

I would like an answer to my question. The same position would obtain if Fine Gael was in power.

I wish to place one matter in context. It was in reply to a question I posed regarding whether better arrangements could be made in respect of those queuing outside the Passport Office that our guests offered their views. This is not a major issue.

I appreciate that.

Members should recognise that fact.

I will not be playing party politics. I appreciate that fact that our guests have come before the committee at such short notice. This shows both the urgency and the seriousness of the situation. Everyone on this side of the table has spoken to many irate and, in some cases, distressed families in recent weeks. As I walked into the complex at 7.30 a.m., the queue for the Passport Office had already overflowed onto Kildare Street. I spoke to some of the ushers at the gate and they informed me that some people had already been queuing for hours in cold and wet conditions. The situation must be resolved. It is over a month since the Irish Travel Agents Association, ITAA, indicated that there would be queues outside the Passport Office if the situation was not resolved. We were, therefore, forewarned with regard to what would happen.

Deputy O'Brien referred to the fact that the jobs of those who are employed by travel agents are at risk. There are also many business people who will be leaving our shores in order to try to attract business or to attend meetings and who cannot afford for their passports to disappear into a black hole for six to eight weeks. Will the Secretary General indicate what it is intended to do to assist such business people in their efforts to travel abroad?

My second point relates to those who have booked flights with carriers such as Ryanair which require people to show their passports when they are checking in at airports. I imagine that many of the 40,000 to 50,000 passport applications that are currently being processed relate to people who intend to take weekend trips to the UK on Ryanair flights. Has the Department been in contact with Ryanair to discover whether it might temporarily relax its requirement for people to produce their passports? If it did so, many people would then be in a position to travel. I accept that this would lead to Garda and immigration officers on duty at the airport allowing people returning here from the UK to do so without presenting their passports. At present, the authorities at the airport also request people to show their passports.

I will be brief, particularly as many of the issues to which I wished to refer have already been raised. I thank our guests for coming before us and for providing updated information on the situation at the Passport Office. I was ashamed as I drove into the House this morning and saw people queuing in the rain. Is it any wonder that people are so angry? We are also frustrated because we are receiving so many representations from constituents who want to know if there is anything we can do for them.

The Secretary General stated that the commitment that was given last night has not been honoured. As a result, we can no longer trust what is happening. That is an awful pity.

The Secretary General also stated that there are different types of travel documents. I heard a story about a woman who was bringing her children to Disneyland Paris and who was trying to obtain her passport. In light of the circumstances that obtain, is there any chance that she and others like her could obtain travel documents that would allow them to travel abroad? Has any research been carried out with regard to the type of travel documents that might be offered to people on a short-term basis? The Secretary General referred to this matter but I do not know if he is certain that the use of such documents would be acceptable. This matter must be pursued.

I am sure other countries would work with us in order to facilitate Irish citizens who wish to travel abroad. As matters stand, there is no way the backlog of 50,000 applications will be dealt with before Easter. We must get real. It is going to take five or six weeks to deal with the backlog. We must adopt an alternative strategy in respect of this matter.

I welcome the fact that the Department is trying to make arrangements to accommodate those who are waiting hours or perhaps days to obtain their passports. However, the point has been reached where we must make alternative arrangements and bypass the system. I accept that negotiations are ongoing but I remain of the view that management must take a stronger line in respect of this matter.

I thank the officials for attending. This is a pretty dirty industrial relations dispute. In the context of the negotiation process, management appears to be in a position where it has virtually no cards to play. The purpose of the dispute is to protest against Government-imposed reductions in public service pay. The methodology being adopted is to inconvenience the public. As long as the unions are inconveniencing the public, the purpose of the dispute is being achieved. The only restriction the unions are prepared to impose in respect of their action relates to the fact that they might lose support from the wider public. All industrial relations disputes rely, to a great extent, on public support. If that drains away, then the unions are placed in a losing position. The only card managers have is the outrage of the public as expressed in the media because people cannot get passports. That allowed them to go to the unions to seek concessions. If they concede 30 temporary workers and overtime but continue to work to rule, the Department would be able to put a regime in place that would clear the backlog quickly.

Managers do not have enough cards to play. I have had disputes in my time with many people. Prison officers went on strike and nurses were going to do so. It all comes down to what cards one has at one's side of the table. The officials could go to the Minister and ask that the Government makes a decision that anybody with a valid passport which is due to expire can go to his or her local Garda station and get a stamp stating, "Validity extended for the next two months". If that requires legislation, let it be introduced but there are precedents for this. In the past we had diplomatic passports. When the passport expired on 1 June, it would be returned and "Validity extended to 1 September" would be written on it. That process is available and therefore there must be a process in law where this is possible.

However, in an emergency, I would do this through the Garda. Managers also have a card to play regarding new applicants for passports. I have one on my desk for a four-month old baby who is due to travel to France with its parents and siblings next Thursday. Under legislation, the child cannot be put on the parents' passports. The baby is waiting for a passport and the family cannot travel if the passport is not issued. If legislation is required, the Government should introduce it to allow travel agents to provide a travel certificate for one return journey to people who have paid their fares. If one goes down that road, these measures need to be imposed but at least it gives cards to managers to negotiate with unions, which have pushed the case beyond the limits. When managers sit down to talk to union representatives, they should say to them that they will not go down these roads provided they agree to 30 temporary staff and they work overtime on Saturday.

At the moment, managers are on a hiding to nothing because they have no cards to play. The only aspect working in their favour is they are hoping the public's outrage will pull the unions back from the brink and they will be more accommodating. They have made a presentational public relations concession, which has no effect in practice because their members will not deal with a single additional passport application. The officials should speak to their Minister along the lines I have mentioned and they should tell the unions the Government will do this if it requires legislation. I am sure they will have the support of the Opposition parties if they go down that road. The public are outraged by what is going on, yet the unions are achieving their objective. This is to ensure public outrage in order that the Government is pressured on the wider issue. That is how I see the way forward. As managers, the officials need more cards to play. They are standing there with their hands in their pockets and it is not their fault. They have no card to play and the unions will take them out big time.

The expression is "With your hands behind your back".

It is worse than that.

I join in the general welcome to the officials who have attended to advise us. I pay tribute to the people directly involved and to the senior staff, including the Secretary General, for appearing. I do not intend to dwell on the background. Talks are taking place between ICTU, the Government and mediators regarding not just this disaster across the road but other issues that are clearly coming down the tracks. It is important in seeking to resolve the present difficulty that a link be made to that process.

Like Deputy Noonan, I am a former Minister and when I look back, I am conscious of the small army of people who were on low wages in my Department. Some people working in the Civil Service qualified for family income supplement. Whether or not that is relevant, I understand clearly the fact that the great burden of cuts was carried disproportionately by those at the bottom of the pile in the public service. I do not accept it is in the interest of the unions and their case to both provoke and deprive the public of their rights. If the object is to seek the support of the public in addressing the issue of inequity in adjusting to fiscal circumstances, the action under way is negative. It is not helping the union's case for public support.

I agree that the prosecution of a right of industrial representation, assembly and action cannot be at the cost of quenching a constitutional right to travel. That is important and the unions should bear that in mind. It is in that sense that the action is not necessarily helpful to the unions' general case about equity.

I want to be of assistance. Responding to the CPSU proposal yesterday by simply saying it was too little, too late, was not helpful. I probably have as much experience as any other member of the committee in industrial relations and disputes but I read the text of yesterday's statement entirely differently from the way it has been presented. It could have provided a window of opportunity both in terms of the definition of what was in the text of the statement and in enabling people to back off from the hook onto which they had become impaled. It could have made a connection with part of another process, which might have enabled the general issue to be addressed. It is not useful to simply say that when there is withdrawal of all the negative actions taking place, we can then make progress.

It is correct to seek to provide an appropriate setting for people who are queuing and I hope that happens. It should be possible, given the electronic age in which we live and the existence of bar codes and so on, to make a considerable differentiation in the 44,000 outstanding applications — a number which is heading towards 50,000 — and to categorise them. People are trying to seek to eliminate the problems in queue management. Public representatives are not idly casting out compliments. We pay tribute to the Passport Office for the service it has provided not to us but to citizens. It would be helpful, however, to categorise the people who are currently queuing.

I support unequivocally the right to travel and its vindication in the courts. However, on a practical level, I am not clear about the requirement of the production of a passport for travel within the EU. Perhaps I am too long around, but I remember the early promise of the founding treaties of the European Union with regard to free movement. There is scope to arrange an expansion of the temporary arrangement relating to travel between European Union member countries. I am not an expert, but I remember looking at the issue a long time ago. It is an old-fashioned argument between idealists and others about the European Union, but there is a practical side to it with regard to a category of temporary document and to whom it might apply.

Nobody is to blame for the Passport Office being flooded. A burst water main is disastrous for everybody and one must try to respond to the situation. However, I would strongly advise against the suggestion that one can put the public inconvenience to one side and take a hard stand. Like with every other industrial dispute, we must note what provides cover for slow progress towards resolution and be careful about accepting it.

On the issue of different categories of applications, if a distinction is made between categories, it would be possible to use the bar codes on the different applications to indicate to people the likely waiting time for a passport. This suggestion has already been made. Unfortunately, as happened today and in recent days, there has been a massive escalation in what might be called a public panic with regard to the volume of applications. At the risk of everyone disagreeing with me, I would say it is interesting that both the management statement from the Passport Office and the CPSU statement acknowledge this. They lay the blame in different places, but there should be ways for both sides to reduce the increasing demand which is fanning the current difficulties. As I said at the start, this is a case where the process that is going on between ICTU and the Government must be attached to the immediate issue across the road in the Passport Office.

Uncharacteristically, I will be brief because I am under considerable time pressure. I would like to address my first question to the Chairman. Will the unions be invited to come before the committee? It is important that we meet them also, because some of the points being made here should be directly addressed to them. We have learned quite a lot and I compliment Mr. Cooney, Mr. Nugent and the other staff who have presented themselves here today and made a fair, clear, precise and balanced presentation. I respect the fact they resisted what must have been a temptation to take a smack at certain sections of union life. That will be helpful in resolving the situation.

I welcome the constructive and practical suggestions made by Deputy Noonan. He illustrated what he had to say with a practical example of a four month old child who is an innocent victim. While some things may be unconstitutional, they are not criminal. We are in a bit of a bind in that we cannot stop people acting unconstitutionally. I regret the fact that, to a certain extent, a partisan position has developed among some elements of this committee. I regret that because the greatest strength of this committee is the fact it is non-partisan and that it examines issues in a non-party and non-partisan light. I hope we will continue to take that into account.

I do not believe the unions are achieving their purpose through squeezing the public. I listen to a great deal of comment and read it in the media. I listen to all the different radio stations and have noted the unions have not won this argument. The public is completely alienated from the unions. I am a strong trade unionist and am a member of three trade unions. I do not enjoy seeing unions making fools of themselves in this way. The reaction of the public is not to go against the Government, but against the unions. This surprises me. The reaction is not just against the unions, but against the front of house staff, many of whom may themselves be under considerable pressure. We must recognise they too are human and do not always behave well under that pressure. Perhaps that is too much to ask. However, when one hears of windows being slammed in the faces of customers and of provocative conduct where staff take rests after dealing with each individual, which is what is being reported by ordinary members of the public, it is worrying. We need to try to ensure the issue does not become any more polarised.

I had similar ideas to those mentioned by several other members, such as whether there is any way we can get around the need for passports in limited areas, specifically for travel between the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland or between European countries. Deputy Noonan suggested getting a stamp on a passport. That may be practical. The idea I had was that people should produce their driving licence, because it contains photographic identification. The Government should be able to lean on companies like Ryanair. It has no legal entitlement to demand a passport. Perhaps it is time Ryanair was taken on and told it is required to accept a driving licence for this kind of travel.

There should be a focus on the fact that there is considerable human suffering as a result of this situation. It could be just suffering like the understandable feeling of a teenager who has been selected to play for his country who is denied that opportunity, which may never recur, because of the lack of a passport. That is an awful thing to do to somebody. Some people are grieving a death, but I am aware there are specific measures for these people to allow them travel. Business people are also travelling out of the country to get jobs. If their passports have lapsed, what happens to them? The point has already been made about frequent business travellers, but there are others who have an opportunity to create business who are affected.

What would our guests recommend in the context of the behaviour of the public? Can they give us any guidance? Could the Department issue an advice sheet advising that if people intend to travel, they need to go to the Passport Office or to apply in some other way. Is it ready to reduce the stress and point out the categories that are in difficulty.

There are other comments I should make, but I have been asked to be brief. I have been as brief as I can be. I apologise for having asked questions, but now having to leave. I mean no discourtesy to the delegates. I would be even more discourteous to other people if I did not leave now. I thank the delegates for their presence and will study their responses.

The witnesses have heard our various suggestions and views and could spend much time responding and delving into the issues. However, perhaps they will respond briefly on the key issues.

Mr. David Cooney

I would like to reply in general terms on the political issues that have arisen and will ask my colleagues to respond on the more technical ones. I thank the committee for its appreciation of our presentation. Coming in at short notice was no problem, because we are not dealing with anything other than the passport issue at the moment. This meeting is a welcome opportunity for us to set out the management perspective, because we do not talk to the media every day but leave it to our Minister to speak for us.

A number of political points have been made, but I will not go into them. The dispute is not a dispute in the Department of Foreign Affairs, but a dispute between the public service, the unions and the Government over pay issues. Deputy Timmins raised some points in this regard and I may speak to him outside the House about them, but it is not an issue I will go into here as the issue should be dealt with by the responsible Department. Deputy Noonan made the point that we have very few cards to play. He is right. This is not a dispute within the Department of Foreign Affairs. The Department has nothing to offer the unions because they are not in dispute with us but with the Government over an issue that has nothing to do with the Passport Office. We have to try to manage it. We are doing our best. It has been mentioned that various categories of people have been inconvenienced. Every case has its own integrity. As far as I am concerned, every person who is inconvenienced by this dispute is one person too many. Regardless of the purpose of travel, this should not happen. As a public servant, I find it deeply upsetting that it is happening.

Deputy Shatter mentioned people who want to emigrate. My father emigrated from this country more than 60 years ago because he could not get a job. I still have his travel document. I came back here at the age of 22 to work in the Irish Civil Service. It has been an enormous honour to do so. As civil servants, we should not harm or inconvenience those we are paid to serve. It should not happen. I have been a member of a trade union throughout my career as a civil servant. I do not find it difficult to have sympathy with the concerns of trade unions. This dispute has gone on too long, when one considers the impact it has had on people. The unions have made their points eloquently. They have shown they can bring the Passport Office to a virtual standstill. Anything further cannot be achieved by continuing this dispute. The concerns of the people should now take priority and the dispute should be suspended.

The staff of the Passport Office are good and decent people. We have worked with them for many years. They have made the passport service one of the jewels in the crown of this country's public service, not that we have a crown in our Republic. These people made the service good and they can make it good again. They are experiencing a great deal of trauma. However, they are not suffering as much as the those who are unable to travel. Many people are losing money and are being seriously inconvenienced. We want this dispute to be brought to an end. We are prepared to co-operate immediately with the unions to try to overcome the backlogs. We have been trying to deal with the immediate issues and to get the public off the street.

I would like to pick up on a point made by Senator Ormonde. We did not say that the offer made yesterday by the CPSU was no good. It will help in the sense that it will broaden the category, but it will not deal with the problem. As a short-term gesture, it will make it easier for everyone who intends to travel to get a passport. Every time someone comes to the window and gets his or her passport immediately, someone who has applied for a passport through the passport express system is delayed. The point I was making is that the CPSU proposal does not deal with the long-term problem.

I heard what Deputy Shatter had to say about the constitutional right to a passport. He is correct. We are very much aware that such a right exists. Our problem is that we cannot issue passports.

Mr. Cooney could take out an injunction against the union to stop it from interfering with the issuing of passports.

Mr. David Cooney

I have taken note of that. I will report that to the Minister for Foreign Affairs. I do not want to get into party politics. As a civil servant, I serve every Government with equal loyalty, regardless of its composition. As civil servants, we serve the people under the direction of Governments that are democratically elected by the people. I made that clear in the letter I sent to the staff of the Passport Office yesterday.

I would like to add to what Deputy Noonan said. I have a suggestion that Mr. Cooney could bring to the attention of the Minister for Foreign Affairs. Will the Department consider sending a letter to the union to the effect that if any compensation claims are made against the State as a consequence of this dispute, the union will be added as a party to those proceedings? Perhaps, with the sanction of the Government, the State could ensure that any compensation payments ordered by the courts are made by the union. It is possible that compensation will have to be paid to people whose lives have been disrupted by the dispute, including those who cannot fulfil travel plans, cannot make their flights and may lose out on jobs.

Mr. David Cooney

I will take that proposal to the Minister, who has been criticised at certain stages in this dispute. As I represent him at this forum, it is only fair for me to mention that he has given us 100% support in the management of this issue. He made several statements calling for the suspension of the dispute. Obviously, the members of the committee may have a different view on the matter. That is the view of the management on the staff side. I do not make that point in any political way.

A large number of proposals have been made. Before I ask my colleagues to deal with the technical aspects of them, I should mention that one of the problems is that security issues have made it much more difficult to use temporary documents. Deputy Noonan made the point that there was a time when one could get a stamp on one's passport to extend its life. That kind of thing is neither accepted nor acceptable in international travel nowadays. When we put out some feelers with regard to the use of documents other than passports for travel with Ryanair, we were not encouraged by the response. If Mr. Michael O'Leary is listening today, he might be interested to hear me say I do not think anyone would be sorry if his company's arrangements were to change.

Mr. Ray Bassett

Ryanair issued a statement yesterday to say it would not consider making such a change. Some of the low-cost airlines that operate from Belfast have relaxed their requirements and are accepting photographic identification. Ryanair was fairly categorical in its statement that it will not consider making any specific arrangements for a single country.

It is an example of the predictable ethos of Ryanair.

It is not very patriotic.

Mr. David Cooney

I hope I have covered the broader issues. If I have not done so, I will gladly come back to the committee.

If the dispute is suspended, as we all hope, how soon will it take to get back to normal? How long would it take to clear the backlog of 50,000 applications?

Mr. David Cooney

I will ask Mr. Bassett and Mr. Nugent to respond to the more technical questions, including that asked by Deputy O'Brien.

Mr. Ray Bassett

I will try to answer some of them briefly. Deputy Timmins and others suggested that some of the activities of the Passport Office could be privatised. It is obvious that we are obliged to keep such issues under review all the time. The KPMG report asked us to look into the matter. Obviously, such a move would have no effect on the present dispute. Some countries have privatised the production of passports, which is not a hugely labour-intensive aspect of the passport service. As Deputy Timmins said, the Netherlands is probably the country to have gone furthest in this respect. The Dutch authorities sold the state organisation that produced passports. The UK has privatised elements of its service, such as appointments and the website.

The difficulty with taking privatisation too far relates to the question of security. This is also an important aspect of the documents issue. Since the events of 11 September 2001, passports have become very valuable documents. The Government has invested €34 million in the service in recent years, partly to improve the security of Irish passports. This is a very high-tech area. Not many Irish firms would be able to take on the production of passports. Many entitlements are conferred by the issuing of a passport. The International Civil Aviation Organisation defines a passport as a designation of citizenship. We have to be very careful about who we give a passport to. It can take up to ten working days for a passport to be issued because many checks have to be run across many databases before an application is passed. It is obvious that countries like the US, which have visa waiver programmes with Ireland, are very interested in how we operate our passport system. One of the reasons we have very high standards is that passports, apart from being travel documents, are regarded in Ireland as gold standard forms of identification. We examined this issue. The operation of the passport service as a public service has run very well. While one must examine everything when something falls down, our initial examination indicates that the manner in which we operate benchmarks very well against other states. KPMG also benchmarked the Passport Office against its Dutch, Danish, Finnish and British equivalents and we emerged very well from that exercise.

On the Ryanair issue, we have been examining this matter. Some of the low cost operators which fly out of Belfast — the Passport Office operates on a 32 county basis — have relaxed their requirements.

On the issue of rests between applications, when staff check applicants' details it may appear they are resting when they are accessing data on their machines and checking passport applications. People have commented on this matter before. There is not and should not be any rest periods between applications.

I was asked about the passport office in Cork. As with the Molesworth Street office, the Cork office is under pressure. However, on account of relative population and demand, the latter is probably under a little less pressure than the former. I do not wish to minimise in any way the pressure the Cork office is under. It is doing its best.

Having worked in the passport service for the past five years, I strongly associate myself with the positive comments made about staff in the Passport Office. I have found it a privilege to work with them in recent years.

Senator Mark Daly asked about tracking applications by computer.

Mr. Ray Bassett

That can be done.

How accurate or reliable is tracking?

Mr. Joe Nugent

I will address the Deputy's question before discussing a number of other technical questions which have arisen. The status of applications is updated on the website three times per day, which allows people to check the status of their application at three specific intervals during the day. The information is available and people can check the position.

Will Mr. Nugent elaborate? What information would need to appear on the website before an applicant could travel to Molesworth Street with a reasonable degree of certainty that a passport would be available for collection?

Mr. Joe Nugent

The status of a passport varies. At the risk of misinforming the joint committee, I will revert to members with the precise information if that is acceptable.

On some of the other questions raised, I echo the remarks of the two previous speakers regarding some of the misinformation that has emerged in the public domain. The issue of staff rests is one such red herring. Staff do not rest between applications. Unfortunately, this is misinformation and it is reasonable to try to correct the record in this matter. As Mr. Bassett stated, at the end of processing an application, some back office work is done on the individual application before the next customer is called to the counter. There is no question of rests being taken. It is opportune for me to try to address some of the misinformation.

A question was asked about the impact of the loss of the production unit in Molesworth Street. I should explain a couple of issues because misinformation has also emerged on this issue. The production equipment used by the Passport Office is highly sophisticated. The type of printer we use cannot be purchased at a local Currys store or anywhere else on the high street. This equipment is very expensive, has intricate parts and is highly sensitive to severe problems of the nature we experienced last week.

As we speak, we are expecting a report from the maintenance company on the extent of damage to the particular piece of equipment. As the Secretary General indicated, it may well be that the scale of the damage sustained may put the equipment beyond repair. If that is the case, it will be a considerable period before we are in a position to replace the device in question.

The production of the passports, the end process of physical printing, is not the bottleneck being experienced in the system at present. There is ample capacity between the production units in place in Balbriggan to cope with even the highest seasonal demand experienced by the Passport Office. That is not a primary concern to us but we are slightly exposed in relation to centralising all our productivity at one location. The opportunity to consider options that could provide some resilience in this regard is of primary concern. As of today, the absence of the production unit in Molesworth Street is having a marginal impact on customers. The effect can be measured in terms of hours of delivery rather than anything of substance.

A question was asked about whether it is normal at this time to recruit seasonal staff. Worldwide, passports are a seasonal business. People apply for passports in the summer and the experience is the same in the northern and southern hemispheres. It is not untypical across passport offices worldwide that seasonal staff are recruited at this peak period. For many years, it has been the case in the passport service that seasonal staff are taken on to assist with seasonal peaks. The peak this year is clearly occurring earlier. A member referred to what could be described as panic associated with some of this process. This panic has certainly resulted in an increase in demand which has brought forward the peak. However, the normal tools available to us to cope with this demand are being blocked by the union. These tools are the availability of overtime and the facility to work with temporary seasonal staff who are usually taken on at this time.

What would be the impact of taking on additional staff or having staff work overtime? Approximately 1,700 passports were processed on one Saturday of overtime at the Balbriggan office in late February. It is clear, therefore, that the availability of overtime and seasonal staff would significantly reduce the current backlog. The sooner we are in a position to address and deal with this issue, the better for all concerned.

Mr. David Cooney

I did not address the question of the statement by the CPSU assistant secretary general, Ms Theresa Dwyer. This is one point on which we are in absolute agreement with the CPSU. Ms Dwyer stated:

...the counter closures are not the cause of the problem as backlogs are in fact worked on during those times rather it's the cumulative effect of ten weeks of industrial action before the Government agreed to enter talks. It was primarily the overtime ban and staff shortages that created the backlog.

The problem is staff shortages and overtime which the union has prevented us from addressing.

According to the Mr. Cooney's opening statement, overtime and additional staff were sanctioned by the Department of Finance.

Mr. David Cooney

It is the ban by the unions, not the——

The union is obstructing the taking on of temporary staff and working of overtime.

Mr. David Cooney

It is a union rather than Government ban on overtime.

The Department has sanction to recruit additional staff immediately if the union gives the green light.

Mr. David Cooney

We have immediate sanction to take on 50 additional staff and we were in negotiations to take on another 35 staff. Obviously, when we could not take on the first 50 staff it——

According to the information document provided to members, union members have been instructed by their unions not to do overtime. They have maintained the ban on overtime and instructed union members not to do overtime.

Mr. David Cooney

Yes. I do not believe we can read anything malevolent into the statement by Ms Dwyer of the CPSU. What she means when she refers to an overtime ban is the union's overtime ban and not a Government overtime ban.

In a nutshell, the Secretary General appears to believe that nothing can be done unless this dispute is resolved. Are other options available? If the dispute continues indefinitely, will members of the public continue to be inconvenienced? I raised the option of outsourcing the facility. Will we be left in the hands of trade unions? If the unions dig in, will members of the public be inconvenienced indefinitely? Does the Department not have another plan to address the difficulty? The option of extending the validity of travel documentation is not available owing to international agreements and the issuing of travel certificates is no longer acceptable for security reasons, notwithstanding that this option is provided for in the legislation. The only solution is outsourcing. Is that correct?

Mr. David Cooney

While there are concerns about the outsourcing option, it is available. The only thing I would say is that we cannot create a situation where we can outsource Irish passports overnight. We need to see this dispute brought to an end, and this is the best channel to pursue. This needs to stop and the needs of the Irish people should take precedence over industrial action. The point has been made and I do not see any reason to extend it. Outsourcing is an option, but is not something that will be done overnight. Asking an outside body or even another government to issue passports cannot be done quickly. It would be a long-term project.

More weight should be given to the point made by Deputy Higgins. There are negotiations going on between the Government and the public service unions and when they started the timetable was for a fortnight. It does not seem to be possible to negotiate an agreement between Mr. Cooney's management and the unions involved in the Passport Office. However, if it was a subset of the wider negotiations, it seems that a solution might be found there. Much weight should be given to the suggestion made by Deputy Higgins.

One also has to be very careful. There is scope for an agreement, but it is difficult if there is a hardening of attitudes on this localised dispute. We know that the CPSU is on a point of industrial action in several other places within the State. We cannot consider actions that are provocative in that respect. I believe that this context is the most hopeful space from which to extract a result. I spoke about the connecting of the discourse that is going on there with the dispute across the street. It enables all of the parties involved to get out of a corner and to respond to what is a public agony and a public breach of rights.

There is some breaking news that the union has decided to escalate the action and that it has served notice.

Is that in the Passport Office or elsewhere?

It is in the Passport Office and it will take effect within seven days.

Are there airlines or travel companies that will accept something less than a passport? Will a driving licence do in certain situations?

Some of them accept driving licences.

Some of the airlines could put up the relevant information on their website, because it could alleviate much stress for people if they knew that a driving licence was sufficient.

Mr. David Cooney

It is unfortunately the case that these documents are less acceptable and this is part of a general security clampdown. Travel between the UK and Ireland would be the only type of travel for which these documents might be acceptable, depending on the airline.

I know that officials from the Department have spoken to Ryanair, but if they got clarity on the situation with Aer Lingus and issued a press release before "Six One News", then they could save some people much queueing.

While Mr. Cooney is here, perhaps he could say a few words on the passport issue with the Israelis and the actions by the British Government.

We are not going into that now.

He could come back another day and discuss it, but since it is topical——

We are not processing enough of them to be of any assistance.

That is one way of stopping them getting their hands on passports.

Mr. David Cooney

We will explore the suggestion made about the different airlines. I could say something about the Israeli passports, but I think humour would be out of place on a day like this.

We are dealing with a localised impact of a centralised dispute. There is no way the Department of Foreign Affairs can do a deal with the CPSU. All I can say is that in the context of this general dispute, the impact on the public has become completely disproportionate and needs to be addressed. However, there can be no negotiations between the Department of Foreign Affairs and the CPSU on resolving the dispute at the basis of this action.

I want to pay particular tribute today to Mr. Joe Nugent, because he has been personally carrying so much of this dispute. He has to go out to the front of the office when it is closed and explain to angry people that they cannot get their passports and that they will have to come back another time. He does so at physical risk to himself. He may now become a public figure, so if people see him out there, they should be nice to him. It is not his fault.

We will buy him a pint.

In fairness, we recognised at the beginning the achievement by Mr. Nugent, the witnesses here today and the staff at the office. That is the tragedy of the current situation. It is damaging a relationship that was first class and had dramatically improved.

Will the Chairman make arrangements for the secretariat to circulate guidelines to the website?

Yes. The witnesses know that they have our cross-party support in taking whatever decisive action they need to take to bring this to a conclusion, and to serve the public as they have been doing and as the staff have been doing. They have heard a wide range of views and I hope that has been helpful. What they have had to say to us has been very informative, and we will keep a watching brief on this.

It has been suggested that we invite the CPSU and the PSEU in here. Are we happy to do that? Are we happy or unhappy?

If the Chairman wants to bring them in——

They certainly have questions to answer.

We would like to think the issues will have been solved by then, but we should invite them in.

I thank the witnesses for attending the meeting.

There is just one other item for committee members. Senator Anne Ormonde has been invited to travel to Afghanistan by Christian Aid. Her costs will be covered by Christian Aid and by Senator Ormonde herself. I offer her the support of the committee in undertaking the visit and I ask that she report to the committee, along with Christian Aid, following her return. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The joint committee adjourned at 2 p.m. until 3.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 31 March 2010.
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