Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Defence debate -
Tuesday, 6 Dec 2022

Outcomes of COP27: Dóchas

Chairman

Our agenda item today is a meeting with representatives from Dóchas about their analysis of the outcomes of the recently-held 2022 UN Climate Change Conference of the Parties, COP27, and its implications for Ireland's policy in respect of international development.

I am very pleased to welcome Ms Jane-Ann McKenna CEO of Dóchas. I welcome Ms Shania Ramadhani who at 15 years of age is our youngest witness and who participates in World Vision's SAUTI youth project. She is joining us via Teams from Tanzania. We are also joined by Ms Jane Meriwas executive director of the northern Kenyan organisation Samburu Women Trust; Ms Siobhán Curran, head of advocacy at Trócaire; Mr. Ross Fitzpatrick, policy and advocacy officer with Christian Aid; Mr. Maurice Sadlier, World Vision Ireland; and Mr. Simon Murtagh, who is no stranger to the surrounds of the Oireachtas.

The format of the meeting is in the usual manner. We will hear an opening statement from Ms McKenna followed by a contribution from other witnesses as deemed appropriate by our panel and a question and answer session with members of our committee. I ask members to be concise in their questions and allow everybody an opportunity to participate. I inform the witnesses that some of our members are present here in the room and others are joining us from their offices as we deal with the residual issues surrounding Covid 19 restrictions. Witnesses and members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise, or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make them in any way identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of that person or entity. If any statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, the witness or member will be directed to discontinue. Any such directions must be complied with. For witnesses attending remotely outside the Leinster House campus there are some limitations as to parliamentary privilege and as such they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness physically present does. I wish to remind members that they are only allowed to participate in the meeting if they are physically located within the complex of Leinster House. I call on Ms Jane-Ann McKenna, CEO of Dóchas, to make her opening statement.

Ms Jane-Ann McKenna

I thank the committee for the invitation to continue our engagement and to give an update on the outcomes of COP27. When we met in October the committee heard harrowing stories from Somalia of the shocking hunger crisis and widespread famine conditions facing millions. As the committee is aware, Irish NGOs and their partners are on the ground responding with lifesaving humanitarian aid. However, these short-term interventions, although needed and lifesaving, will not solve the root causes of what we are seeing. Indeed, as the Minister of State for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Colm Brophy, spelled out in his contribution to this committee last week, the deadly combination of conflict, a failed global food system and five successive failed rainy seasons as a result of climate change, have created this catastrophic situation.

When we last spoke, we called for urgent action on a number of fronts, in particular of the need to establish a loss and damage fund. To that end, we warmly welcome the agreement at COP27 to establish such a fund aimed at providing vital financial support to the millions affected by climate change in the Global South. In particular we would like to thank Ireland for its leadership during COP27 and for the widespread Oireachtas support and engagement prior to and during COP27. This is a landmark moment that has been achieved after years of demands from communities who have been suffering the damaging impacts of the climate crisis and the injustice of being pushed into debt to pay for a crisis not of their making. The Prime Minister of Barbados, Ms Mia Mottley, urged global leaders at COP27 to realise this fact when she said:

We were the ones whose blood, sweat and tears financed the industrial revolution, are we now to face double jeopardy by having to pay the cost as a result of those greenhouse gases from the industrial revolution? That is fundamentally unfair.

In practical terms, the next step is that a transitional committee will be put in place to establish the fund and the most vulnerable countries need to have their voices and concerns heard in the process. We urge all countries, including Ireland, to ensure transparency, accountability and equity are the core principles of this fund and that funding reaches those countries that need it the most. In the meantime, there is a growing body of support for the call for not just increased climate finance from wealthy countries, but sweeping financial reform which is needed to implement adaption and mitigation measures across low income countries. We also want to see an increased focus on the quality, accountability and value of climate finance which should be in the form of grants rather than loans. Less than 2% of climate finance actually reaches small holder farmers, many of whom are women, on the ground globally. Here in Ireland, the Climate Action Plan is expected to be published before the end of the year. This will set us on a very necessary path to the target of a reduction in emissions of 51% by 2030. However, globally we need to see our biggest emitting countries implement reduction plans. We must remember that the need for adaptation and loss and damage funding will continue to grow unless we act now. Greater ambition is needed by every nation.

Today I am joined by Ms Siobhán Curran, head of policy and advocacy with Trócaire and Mr.Ross Fitzpatrick, policy and advocacy officer with Christian Aid who both attended COP27 and who will be able to answer any questions the committee may have. I am also honoured to be joined by Ms Jane Meriwas, executive director of the Northern Kenyan organisation, Samburu Women Trust, a woman-led organisation that champions the rights of women and girls in indigenous communities. Ms Meriwas has been invited to Dublin this week by Oxfam Ireland. In tackling the climate crisis, Ms Meriwas works to ensure that indigenous women, as custodians of the land with rich knowledge of protecting and preserving our environment, are heard in all decision making spaces. I am also delighted to be joined virtually by 15-year-old Ms Shania Ramadhani who participates in World Vision's SAUTI youth project. Ms Ramadhani attended COP27 and participated in the COP27 presidency's youth and future generations day events. I would especially like to thank Ms Ramadhani for taking a break from her summer holidays to be with us here today. Her commitment to educating us on the realities of climate change is unwavering.

Before I hand over to Ms Ramadhani and then to Ms McKenna we are asking that the committee and all Oireachtas members support our calls to action. These are to continue to be a champion for the loss and damage finance facility and to commit initial loss and damage finance, that is new and additional finance, as a sign of leadership on the issue; to champion and promote the inclusion of those furthest behind as the loss and damage fund is established and to ensure the core principles of the fund are that of transparency, accountability and equity; to play our part to move the world on track to 1.5°C both with ambitious climate action at home, but also to support low income countries on green development pathways; to include children, young people and women in all aspects of decision making as we respond to the climate crises and finally, to continue to grow Ireland’s overseas development budget, ODA in line with our commitment to spending 0.7% of gross national income, GNI, on ODA by 2030.

Ms Shania Ramadhani

Chair, asante sana for the invitation to speak to the committee. When we met the Minister of State, Deputy Brophy, at COP27, he agreed it is important that children and young people are involved in discussions on the climate crisis and encouraged me to continue to keep on pestering leaders for action. I am grateful for the opportunity to speak to the committee today. It has shown by example the importance and the need to include children in decision-making.

Even at my young age, I have seen the effects of climate change in my community. Most of the impacts are happening in developing countries such as Tanzania, where I come from. In my country, we are experiencing a shortage of rain, long periods of drought and water shortages because water sources have dried up. Children are forced into work to provide food at home. We have a hunger crisis because nothing is being harvested from farms. We are experiencing an increased cost of living, the eruption of diseases such as malaria as a result of the increase in temperature and an increased number of children at risk. Many children are dropping out of school because of hunger. Adolescent girls and children are forced into marriage and the level of violence experienced by children has increased.

When I attended COP27 as a voice of children in Africa, I carried four main messages on behalf of my peers: that more action on climate must be taken and the 1.5°C target of the Paris Agreement must be met; that the participation of children and young people in climate action should be increased; natural-based solutions should be used, that is, we need to use localised action to protect and restore the environment for future generations; and funding for climate problems must be increased. I was proud to represent children at the COP27 presidency's intergenerational dialogue held on children, youth and future generations. This was a step that has moved the dial toward greater participation of children in the process. I was happy to see COP27 put out some documents that recognised that children can be agents of change. We can be agents of change, and it is about time adults recognise that. I urge Ireland to continue to champion this and see how, across all its responses to climate, it can include children in a meaningful manner.

On finance and emissions, the story is not good. The loss and damage fund is needed, and it is an urgent step forward. We have been burned before, however. Leaders have failed to deliver on commitments to other sources of funding and to reach the 1.5°C target. I humbly ask the committee to consider financing all aspects of climate action. As I shared during the COP27 event, it is my hope, and the hope of the African children and youth I represent, that we will use all possible means in our power to address the effects of climate change. We must do something now to write a new history for the future generation of tomorrow. Ireland is a great supporter of Tanzania and developing nations. Our countries are requesting it be ambitious in helping to protect the planet for me and all future generations. I ask members to be part of writing that new history. Asante sana. I am grateful for this opportunity.

Ms Jane-Ann McKenna

I thank Shania for her insightful and brilliant contribution. I will now hand over to Ms Meriwas.

Ms Jane Meriwas

It is an honour to be in this House. I do not take it for granted. I am an indigenous woman from Kenya. I have come from Africa bringing stories of hope and resilience. We talk about the climate crisis and issues of drought. Where I come from, we have not seen rain for the past three and a half years. Yet, we are coping with resilience and hope.

As a woman with all those challenges and working with women and girls, I see many issues arising around climate change. Many girls drop out of school. It also disrupts the family unit in my community because there is no hope and our livelihood has died. We are a nomadic pastoralist community, but men have to go to urban centres to look for jobs and women are left at home, so the family unit is being disrupted. As a result, more girls are forced to marry at a tender age and to do other things to survive.

We talk about the issue of loss and damage. Where do we place these communities in that? We have been fighting for the past 30 years. We were given a loss and damage fund, but how do we ensure accessibility for communities that are not close to an urban centre and do not have phones? It will be difficult for them to apply. How do we ensure the fund reaches the less vulnerable? How do we ensure leaders who make decisions, like the committee members, push for policy to ensure when these funds become available people are educated to understand it is important for them to access the funds? That is why the members of the committee are leaders and that is why we need them. How do we also ensure the same funds and resources being pushed are accessible to more vulnerable women and girls? How can we ensure women sit at the same table, such as this one, to ensure they can raise their voices and ensure they are at the centre of decision making on critical issues such as finance and climate change? They must be at the same table to ensure their issues are communicated.

Chairman

That concludes the opening statements. We will move on to committee members for questions. I urge other members of the panel to contribute as they deem fit.

Senator Joe O'Reilly

I will be as brief as possible. Ms Meriwas asked how we can ensure aid, food and needed supplies reach the most vulnerable. Will she elaborate on the extent to which they are not reaching the most vulnerable? Is she suggesting we are not successful in reaching the most vulnerable? What limitations are there? That is a common fear among people who are in favour of aid and support. They fear it might not always be reaching the most vulnerable. That is an interesting point if I understood Ms Meriwas correctly.

The principles relating to the loss and damage fund have been drawn up. Do the witnesses have much detail on the various percentage contributions to be made? It must be in addition to existing aid given in the normal way. It must be supplementary. Have any tentative figures been agreed? What kind of supervisory structures will be put in place? How will it work? Is there anything the witnesses would like the committee to do with the Irish Minister or input we could have to ensure the loss and damage fund will be effective?

Ireland needs to start by being forthcoming towards it and supporting it. That is a critical first start. What role could we then play in making sure it worked? We had what my colleague Deputy Stanton described as a disturbing session last week. It was one of the worst things he had ever heard about the situation on the Horn of Africa. We had that graphic description last week and it was hugely disturbing as the former Minister of State said. We have the background, so today we are talking about the mechanics of achieving it.

Ms Jane-Ann McKenna

I will pass over to Ms Meriwas to address the issue of funding not reaching the most vulnerable.

Ms Jane Meriwas

I thank the Senator for his question, and it is a very good one. What I meant is that they need to have more accountability.

Senator Joe O'Reilly

That is very disturbing.

Ms Jane Meriwas

Yes. When I talk about accountability it also needs to be accompanied by addressing issues around information. Information needs to reach the communities that are most in need, because it is lacking and not there. Second, these communities also need education to access this aid. Where I come from 95% of people are semi-literate. They cannot read. They do not have smartphones. Information to provide accountability is not there, and it becomes a challenge. That is what I meant, and I thank the Senator for raising that key question.

Ms Jane-Ann McKenna

I will ask Ms Curran to address the principles of the loss and damage fund, how we can move forward and what Ireland can do.

Ms Siobhan Curran

There is a lot of opportunity ahead with the loss and damage fund. We know it is a landmark decision and something that has been fought for over the past 30 years. The decision made at COP was to establish the fund. In terms of the political commitment and decision what now has to be decided is how the fund will work and the modalities around it. There is a transitional committee that will do that. Ireland has a role to play, potentially as a member of the committee, or certainly as a shaping member. We hope that Ireland will be a member of the committee and we will be pushing Ireland to ensure there are a number of principles embedded in the working of the committee. One will be around equity and that will be key. We really need to see a fund rooted in principles of common but differentiated responsibilities and respective capabilities. This means that the biggest historical polluters will pay into the fund. We want to see principles of equity and of course accessibility. This offers an opportunity to create a fund that is accessible to communities on the ground. The Green Climate Fund is one example of a current fund that has been quite bureaucratic and quite hard to access for smallhold farmers and the people who most need to access it. We can take the learning from that and apply it to the loss and damage fund. With Ireland, as the Senator has made the point, we also need to ensure that all the money going to this is additional. A lot of our climate finance at the moment is channelled through official development assistance, ODA. While that is not bad in and of itself, we have to make sure there is transparency and accountability around it. For the loss and damage fund we need to make sure this is all additional money. I will ask Mr. Fitzpatrick to continue

Mr. Ross Fitzpatrick

I will briefly add to Ms Curran's remarks about the principles that need to be front and centre regarding this fund. All we have now is an empty pot. We have a year to get to COP28 and we need to ensure that the money is distributed to the most vulnerable countries in an equitable way. There are two crucial dates to bear in mind. The first is 15 December, which is the deadline for nominations to the transitional committee. That will figure out the operational modalities of the fund. As Ms Curran mentioned, it would be great to see Ireland as a member of that committee. As the EU negotiator on loss and damage during COP27 we could bring a wealth of experience . Even if we are not on that committee Ireland should work to ensure it is equipped with the necessary resources to carry out its work effectively. There is a role for us to play even if we are not on the committee. There will be ten developed countries on the committee and 14 developing countries The second crucial date to bear in mind is 15 February 2023. By that date parties should have submitted reports or submissions on topics for the loss and damage workshop, which is to be set up in 2023. Again, this is to figure out how the fund will operate. We would encourage members to play an active role in ensuring that the submission process has the principles outlined initially by Ms Curran. Those are common but differentiated responsibility, equity and historical responsibility. These really need to be at the front and centre of the process.

Chairman

I call Deputy John Brady, followed by Senator Ardagh.

Deputy John Brady

I thank the witnesses for coming in this afternoon. In particular I welcome Ms Ramadhani in Tanzania. This is a really important issue coming on the back of COP27. There were a lot of positives, but it has to be said there were also some negatives out of COP. I do not want to focus solely on one or the other. I will try and get a balance on both. As has been said, after 30 years of campaigning, lobbying and putting on pressure to get agreement, the loss and damage agreement was described as monumental. It absolutely is but it will only be as important as the transitional committee, the work and participation that goes into it and what comes out of it. Mr. Fitzpatrick has given us two key dates and I wonder if there is more specific detail around what comes after once the committee is up and running. After the second meeting on 15 February when do we get to the implementation stage?

Ms Meriwas touched on the issue of accountability when it comes to funding. That is key, because unfortunately we see time and again that countries commit to fund different projects and the money does not materialise. We see that played out particularly in the Horn of Africa, for example, where the World Food Programme has had to cut programmes right across the board. There are concerns there. I know they put out an appeal last week looking for €121 million just to ensure that a programme for two specific countries would continue until the end of this year. What does accountability look like when you say there needs to be accountability? I agree, but how do we make countries follow through with the money when they make a commitment like that? It is impossible for any organisation on the ground, which is dealing with the very complex and harrowing situation we see unfolding. They have to make difficult decisions to cut rations or decide who to feed. What does accountability look like? We even see it where groups have promised money but it is now going elsewhere. Unfortunately we still have a horrific war in Ukraine. Many people and organisations are saying that unfortunately that is where the focus is now. Providing weapons and other assistance there is understandable in many regards. However, it is at the detriment of countries such as this. How do we ensure accountability comes about?

How do we ensure accountability? While there has been huge progress on loss and damage, there are concerns about the issue of adaptation to climate change and that there needs to be a major effort and focus in respect of building towards adaptation. I seek a view on the global goal on adaptation. Where do we need to go and what needs to be done? I have very strong views on the lobbyists from the fossil fuel industry who were in attendance at COP27, I think there were more than 600 of them which is an increase of 25% on the previous COP, so I would like to get the witnesses' view on that. Could the witnesses also give their view on the failure of the call for a phase-down on all fossil fuels?

Last week, the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs, Deputy Brophy, appeared before the committee and it was a very useful engagement. He has visited the Horn of Africa recently and spoke about the failure of the global food system. There needs to be a focus on that. Members of this committee attended the UN Security Council earlier in the year and sat in on a debate on the issue of food security and it was insightful to hear people at the very top in terms of having the ability to address the issue say the right things but the action on the ground is not there. How do the witnesses think Ireland can progress the agenda around sustainable food production and security? As our time on the UN Security Council is unfortunately coming to an end, do the witnesses think there are any other avenues or anything else we could do on that issue?

Ms Jane-Ann McKenna

I thank Deputy Brady. My colleagues will take his questions in chunks. I will ask Ms Meriwas to elaborate on the issue of accountability. For many of our members and many of their partners working on the ground, on funding reaching those who are at the forefront of a crisis, namely, the smallholder farmers and women who may not have either the support or otherwise to be able to access the funding, we see that as a gap and we need to look at more innovative ways to reach those who are furthest behind.

Ms Jane Meriwas

I thank the Deputy. In the spirit of leaving no one behind, when we talk about accountability it means the need to have an oversight between parliamentarians from Ireland and the country I come from, Kenya, visiting the same communities which aid or whatever it is, is supposed to reach. Seeing and talking are two different things. When one visits and sees they will have a different story. In terms of accountability it means we hold each other accountable. Second, we cannot say that we are accountable when the recipient or even members of the community who are supposed to be the first responders on the ground to receive aid do not have basic education, are not trained, or basically do not have information. That denies them an oversight and the ability to hold leaders accountable. Education is key and having a mechanism in place in order that when we talk about the spirit of leaving no one behind, even the communities the majority, 90%, of whom are semi-literate, can hold their own government and the people who give aid accountable. We also need oversight and reports. I am not sure if I have answered the Deputy's question.

Ms Jane-Ann McKenna

I will ask Ms Curran to comment on the global scale of accountability of big donors of some of these big funds and of the commitments being made but the action perhaps not being followed, and on the Deputy's question about the global goal on adaptation.

Ms Siobhan Curran

To echo what Ms McKenna said the partners and organisations in civil society we work with have key messages that they want adequate, predictable and accessible grant-based funding. The biggest accountability gap is in promises made by richer countries that are then not delivered and this has been seen time and time again at every COP. It erodes the trust because we know a promise was made to deliver €100 billion by 2020 and the longer that is not delivered, the more trust is eroded because that is really small in comparison to the actual need. That is the first part of the accountability.

Then there is how that is delivered. We know a lot of it is delivered through loans and pushing countries further into debt so again it is not an appropriate response. Thankfully Ireland has not taken that approach and is good on providing adaptation-focused finance, which is to be welcomed. Overall, countries need predictable flows of climate finance and Ireland needs to increase its volume of climate finance. At the moment the figures for 2020 show we delivered €88.3 million in climate finance, and it has increased since then, and in this budget €25 million was provided and another €10 million from the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications. While we have good practice in terms of focusing on adaptation and it is slowly increasing, but our commitment as Ireland in the programme for Government was for €225 million and that is not really our fair share. The Overseas Development Institute, ODI, has done very good and rigorous research on this and it says our fair share is $520 million. We are reaching a small amount of our fair share and we would like to see Ireland meeting our climate finance obligations, increasing it in line with our fair share but also thinking ahead because we are on the cusp of the post-2025 figures on climate finance that need to be delivered. The figures will increase dramatically and we know we have to increase in line with need and with the science. That is the key thing.

In terms of adaptation, because it also relates to that, the majority of climate finance that is being delivered globally focused on mitigation and there should be a balance between mitigation and adaptation. When we looked at the figures for this year it was disappointing that the adaptation targets were again not met. At the COP, the African group asked for an agenda item to be added to focus on a roadmap to deliver on the adaptation funding. It did not make it on to the agenda and so there was no progress on this. There was also discussion during the COP about richer countries meeting the cumulative shortfall, so not just reaching the €100 billion. Every year we do not meet it, it adds up. That also did not make it to the final agreement. That is a warning and an alarm bell for us that we need to address that because as we look to the loss and damage fund, which is crucial, that also needs to be delivered and funded. Learning from where we have not met our promises already is crucial for looking ahead.

Ms Jane-Ann McKenna

I will ask Mr. Fitzpatrick to comment on some of the practical steps regarding the transitional committee after February and perhaps to also touch on Deputy Brady's question about fossil fuels.

Mr. Ross Fitzpatrick

I thank Deputy Brady. The first thing I will say is that even though a fund was agreed to at the end of COP 27, and I agree it was a monumental win, it is important to bear in mind that this was by no means a given at the start of the COP.

As the members may be aware, there was a massive row the day before the official COP kicked off even to have it on the agenda. We got that. For pretty much the duration of the entire COP there was a long protracted negotiation where one had developed countries on the one side saying the fund would not be agreed to at the end of the COP and to push it back to next year and on the other hand developing countries were arguing the opposite and stating that we needed a political agreement of a fund. It is worth bearing in mind that where we are now is good but the likelihood of this fund operating correctly and the way it should is by no mean a given because there is a strong chance that between now and COP28 there will be cynical attempts to ensure the fund does not get the funding that it needs, is not properly equipped and is not properly resourced. That is why the first two things regarding the transitional committee is to ensure it is adequately equipped and resourced and that progressive countries like Ireland are at least if not a member of the committee are working from the outside to ensure that developed countries take a progressive role.

Ireland can play a role in the Glasgow Dialogue. As members will be aware, the Glasgow Dialogue was set up after COP26 when there was a failure to agree to the loss and damage fund, which was the main ask of civil society in developing countries. One of the aspects of the decision at COP27 regarding the fund was to ensure that the Glasgow Dialogue complements the work of the transitional committee. Dóchas urges Ireland to take a proactive role in the next Glasgow Dialogue, which will take place in June of next year, as the focus of that Glasgow Dialogue meeting will be on operationalising and maximising existing funding, where Ireland can also play a key role.

My final comment on the transitional committee is that a report will be published in advance of COP28 that takes into account all of the meetings of the committee, the next Glasgow Dialogue and ministerial consultations. It is important that in advance of COP28 that the report is as strong as possible and Ireland can play a real role in ensuring that is the case.

There was a question asked about fossil fuels and I agree with what was said. The major win of this COP was the loss and damage fund but we backslided on Glasgow and there was no real progress on fossil fuels. If that continues to be the case at future COPs then loss and damage will only get worse. We know that loss and damage will continually get worse in the years ahead. If we do not make progress on fossil fuels then it does not matter how much money we have for this fund because it will not help countries respond to what is needed. It is important that there are no trade-offs between adaptation, mitigation and loss and damage because they are all connected. During COP27 there were some cynical attempts to play these things against one another. It is important that Ireland ensures that these things are treated as one part of an overarching climate action.

Mr. Maurice Sadlier

I am here in a supportive role but I am never a man to turn down an opportunity to talk. I am here in Somalia today so this conversation is really important and brought things home to me as I spent three hours this morning in an internally displaced people's camp with women who have lost everything because of climate change. I sat with a 70-year-old woman who had 50 goats two years ago but now has absolutely nothing and is looking after 16 grandchildren because three of her sons are dead so this loss and damage fund becomes increasingly important. To me, COP28 or COP29 would be too late because we need the funding now. We really need to be much more serious about our climate ambitions as Ms Ramadhani asked us to be. In our funding for the response to climate change we need to be so much more ambitious and do so much more at home and abroad in our response. I cannot really put into words the situation of the women in the camp this morning. They have absolutely nothing and their situation is directly related to climate change, the world's inability to act and the fact that politics takes over and damages real people's lives and really impacts their lives.

If we listen to Ms Ramadhani and her peers and if we involve them then they can hold us to account. We must have greater inclusion of children in these processes because this is their futures that we are messing with and dealing with. If we listen to them we will be held to a higher level of accountability and we must act on her requests.

Senator Catherine Ardagh

I thank everyone for coming in. I thank Ms McKenna; I think it is her third or fourth time to come here. I welcome Ms Ramadhani and Ms Meriwas.

All of the speakers touched on how climate change affects women, for which I thank Ms Ramadhani, Ms Meriwas, Mr. Sadlier and Ms McKenna. Ms Meriwas touched on the idea of having female representation at a higher level in government to reflect the views of women working on small farms. That is something that works. We have seen how greater female representation works in Ireland because female issues come to the fore a lot more. When it was all males who were sitting around the table they were not interested in issues that affected women to the same extent as when women are around the table; it is really important, basic and obvious. I do not think that the men sitting around the table meant to exclude female issues but it is one of those innate biases that one must check oneself for and not just men who are involved in politics. When dealing with people coming to our clinics we have to check ourselves for biases because there is stuff that one will automatically think that one should not think and that happens all the time. It just makes it a lot easier and fairer when we have women sitting around the table. If that is something we can support the witnesses with then we would be delighted to do so.

We have the international climate finance roadmap and we have committed to €225 million by 2025. Am I correct to say that the loss and damage fund goes into the adaptation fund? Does the climate finance roadmap fund directly feed into the adaptation fund?

Ms Siobhan Curran

It should be additional to both. There is a mitigation pillar and an adaptation pillar and now there will be a loss and damage pillar.

Senator Catherine Ardagh

What fund does the €225 million go into? Is it mitigation and adaptation?

Ms Siobhan Curran

Yes. The majority of Ireland's climate finance has focused on adaptation. Our climate finance is generally delivered through ODA. The loss and damage funding will have to be completely additional to both and anything that is not is essentially taking from one pot to pay another pot.

Senator Catherine Ardagh

On the loss and damage fund, Maurice gave a vivid example today of someone he met and how urgent it is to have funding. Will the funding go to individuals or capital projects? Has allocation of the fund been decided?

Mr. Ross Fitzpatrick

That has not been decided yet and will be one of the jobs of the transitional committee. Some of the current funding structures under the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change, UNFCCC, such as the green climate fund, are quite poor when it comes to ensuring that money reaches the most vulnerable first. It is often very difficult for local NGOs to go through the really tedious process to get the funding. So one of our key asks is to ensure that the loss and damage fund process is streamlined so that vulnerable communities, which may not have the resources of an NGO like Christian Aid, can access the funding.

Senator Catherine Ardagh

On education, Ms Meriwas said 95% of people do not have access to smartphones or broadband. Would that correlate to broadband as well as smartphones? Would more than 5% of people have access to the Internet?

Ms Jane Meriwas

What I meant is that 95% of the community cannot read and write. Basically, access to a phone is difficult and most of these areas also have very poor or even limited infrastructure, including communications and the Internet. Some of these mechanisms are set when we talk about climate finance, loss and damage and access. That itself is denying people the opportunity even to access resources. Education is key so that even if people are in remote areas, they are able to know this money is there, it is theirs and they can also hold accountable anybody who is supposed to give it to them. That is what I meant.

Having said that, my colleague raised the issues of the loss and damage fund being the first response to impacts in climate crises and drought. Almost all the community have lost their livelihoods, which includes livestock. There is no water even for growing maize and oats in agriculture. Everybody is vulnerable. Everybody is poor. Yes, there is a need to have that fund. It is urgent. However, there is also a need to have a mechanism so that the people who are impacted heavily by loss and damage are able to access it in a way that it is accessible to them.

Deputy David Stanton

I welcome everybody to the meeting. It is a pity they have to come in repeatedly but this is the world we live in and this is where we are at. I thank the witnesses for their presentations. I do not want to repeat what my colleagues said. I think we are all more or less in agreement that there is a desperate situation as we speak, which is accelerating quite quickly and maybe more quickly than people realise. Obviously, as was said earlier, the situation in Ukraine is not helping at all. That was alluded to last week as well. We have seen more and more people moving. The movement of people north and so on from these areas is another catastrophe in its own right. People have to leave their homes and homelands and travel long distances, very often through very dangerous territory. We know the dangers, pitfalls and horrors that can befall people in that regard.

One particular line stood out in Ms McKenna's submission. She stated that "Less than 2% of climate finance actually reaches small holder farmers, many of whom are women, on the ground globally." She might expand on that and talk about the other 98% at some stage. I would be interested to hear how that happens. There is a worry when people give that funding that it does not get to where they want it to go. What can we do to ensure that money gets where we want it to go and has the greatest impact? We have corruption and climate in conflict. We mentioned climate in conflict but corruption is also involved at all levels. Ms McKenna might talk about that.

I also want to ask about two other funds, namely, the least developed countries fund and special climate change fund. How are they are performing at the moment? What is the actual interaction between them and the current loss and damage fund we are talking about? There seem to be a lot of funds.

I asked a number of people recently whether they knew anything about COP 27 and they did not. We seem to hide behind the Conference of the Parties, COP, although I am not sure if it is intentional. People even have to look further to see what parties are being referred to. It is the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change and all these things. It is very hard and complex in some ways. Maybe we should look at calling a spade a spade and say it is climate change. Many people do not know what COP is. We do because we hear about it. I wonder how many of our colleagues in the Oireachtas would even know what COP was if they were not tuned in. I am concerned about raising awareness. That is quite important among everybody everywhere right across the world.

Last week, we had a group here visiting from Finland. They have an interesting committee in the Parliament there called the Committee for the Future, which looks into the future and predicts what is going to happen. I have been reading some work by Mr. John Englander, who published a book in 2021 called Moving to Higher Ground: Rising Sea Level and the Path Forward. It is actually quite frightening because he talks about rising sea levels and the impact that will have. He said it is inevitable; it is unrelenting and cannot be stopped. That will have an impact around the coastlines of the world in Africa, North America, South America, here in Europe and so on. He said we should be talking about the sea level rising by metres, not inches, and that it was going to happen. Therefore, perhaps we need to start looking at that. I know we need to deal with the here and now and the catastrophe that is out there right now, but maybe we should start looking ahead at this next catastrophe that is on the way. There has been little discussion about it. I did not hear any discussion about it here, at the Conference of the Parties or anywhere else. However, much of the stuff I have been reading is quite scary and frightening if this in fact happens, which they say is inevitable with the ice melting. In some instances when the ice melts, it rises up and takes the weight off the land and the land rises as well. That only happens in a very small number of places, however. Ms McKenna might comment on that.

I am interested in particular on the small island developing states. I met some of those people in the UN a number of years ago. They were very worried. Some said recently that their country was going to disappear under the sea and they would have to leave. I am not taking from what is happening in other parts of the world either with terrible storms, awful drought, crops failing, rains failing and so on. It is all part of the same issue. Mr. Englander said this is inevitable and we have to accept it and mitigate it by moving to higher ground, which is the title of his book. It sounds really scary and catastrophic in many ways. Those are just some thoughts. I do not want to repeat what other colleagues said earlier about other things. The accountability is one issue in which I am interested.

Ms Jane-Ann McKenna

I thank Deputy Stanton very much for that. He touched a little bit on what my colleagues mentioned about looking beyond 2025. How are we actually envisaging doing this differently? Obviously, there are certain commitments we must make now that we have to fulfil. However, what is our vision for the future, even as Ireland, in trying to see what role we want to play within that? I will first hand over to Ms Curran to speak a little bit more to that question on the 2% and how women are often very much not necessarily the target group for much of the funding that is available.

Ms Siobhan Curran

I thank Deputy Stanton. The issue around the 2% and accountability is about the choices states are making on how they are directing the money rather than it not necessarily being delivered appropriately when it is delivered. The overwhelming thrust of climate finance has been to mitigation rather than adaptation. As I said, Ireland is different in this. That is why we actually do call a lot on Ireland to be a leader, which we did at COP 27. Ireland has been part of the climate adaptation champions group as well.

We are concerned that the funds are not designed in a way that is so bureaucratic they will not be accessible for people who most need access to them such as small holder farmers and women. It is thinking about how they are designed. That does link to gender. We had a report on women taking the lead, which looked at the gendered climate impacts. Even in times of climate emergencies, women were more vulnerable. They actually had a higher death rate in climate emergencies. There are all sorts of gendered impacts around displacement and so on. Having a gendered approach is crucial, as is having an intersectional approach that brings in racism. It was good to see the special rapporteur on racism issue a report before the Conference of the Parties in which she talked about the impact of colonialism and how that has shaped the climate emergency we are in. Us joining all those dots together is very important. There have been many developments within the human rights sphere with a new rapporteur on human rights and climate change and a new resolution on the right to a healthy environment. That should underpin our work going forward.

Ms Jane-Ann McKenna

Perhaps Mr. Fitzpatrick might also come in. I know a Finnish delegation was here. I was watching that meeting and envisaging the future. Perhaps Mr. Fitzpatrick could touch a little bit on some initiatives we could consider in the future and what that could look like.

Mr. Ross Fitzpatrick

I wish to touch briefly on the least developed countries fund, LDCF, and the special climate change fund, SCCF. I think it is an important question with regards to why the loss and damage fund is important. As Ms Curran mentioned, there are issues with accessibility with both of these funds. They are also not equipped to deal with some very climate-vulnerable countries. For example, Pakistan is not considered in the LDCF and it therefore cannot even access funding under that fund. It had to go to the IMF to draw down a loan. I also point out that both of these funds are largely loan-based, so they are putting more unsustainable debt burdens on countries that are looking for funding. As Ms Curran mentioned, their only focus so far has been on mitigation and adaptation. Currently, the under the UNFCCC architecture there is no money at all for loss and damage. Basically, the funds provide nowhere near what is required to meet the scale of the need, as we are seeing in Pakistan and also Kenya. Kenya does not meet the criteria to get funding from either of the funds. That goes some way to answering the Deputy's question as to why they are not suitable.

Ms Jane-Ann McKenna

Perhaps Mr. Murtagh, who is representing Oxfam Ireland and is here to support Ms Meriwas, wants to comment on the 2% figure and the accessibility issue.

Mr. Simon Murtagh

The 2% figure is actually 1.7%. It comes from Oxfam's research done through its systems in the Pacific and Africa on where climate finance actually reaches. I included the findings in a submission to our climate unit between our departments. I can provide the committee with the submission, which sets out where the research comes from. More broadly, it is important to state that at Oxfam, we have grave concerns about the quality of climate finance over the past decade. We publish shadow climate finance reports. I spoke to this committee last year from COP26 in Glasgow. I appealed for us to reach the $100 billion climate finance goal as an international community, but in fact, that goal is apocryphal. Our research shows that perhaps only up to 20% of it can be considered really effective aid. That is why there is such a focus here today on effectiveness and accountability. That applies at all levels. It applies at the highest level, where money goes to big multilateral funds like the green climate fund, GCF, which has been mentioned, or UN funds. Looking at our climate finance, it is on record that in 2020 we doubled the amount that went to multilateral funds. That was said to be down to the Covid pandemic, and therefore we could not give as much money to bilateral funds. We must look at both the high levels of accountability where the money goes from states, as Ms Curran said, and at the ground levels, to see that it is effective and reaches small holders who, we have found, it is not reaching. Many of them are women's rights organisations. That is where the research comes from. We really need to get it right. We cannot repeat the mistakes that have been made in climate finance. That is why we have set out these principles of equity and effectiveness today.

Finally, the Prime Minister of Barbados, Mia Mottley, was mentioned in the opening statement. Barbados has really been an inspirational country and she has been an inspirational figure in this area. Under the Bridgetown Agenda, she has really shown where we can introduce a transformational fiscal stimulus to make a loss and damage fund that would transform the whole area across the Global South. That is a wider agenda in which I know, for example, the Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications is interested. We could so something new and much more effective across this whole area.

Deputy David Stanton

I wish to raise the issue of sea level rise. Mr. Fitzpatrick mentioned Pakistan, which is a country that will be affected by that, along with Bangladesh. Is enough, or any, attention being paid to the issue globally? Do the witnesses agree that sea level rise is on the way and has the potential to cause catastrophic and irreversible damage, even worse than the damage we are seeing being caused at the moment in many places? Is it inevitable? I must say that when I read this book, it really worried me. This is just one book, but I have read others and they all say the same thing. I am curious as to whether the issue is being looked at. I brought it up in the House and I thought it was not taken seriously. Perhaps I am the outlier here, I do not know. I would be interested in hearing the views of the witnesses.

Ms Jane-Ann McKenna

I will defer to Ms Curran on the issue. I think it touches on what Mr. Murtagh mentioned about Mia Mottley, because it concerns the small island developing nations that are coming together and calling for action because sea level rise is impacting directly on them. Perhaps Ms Curran wants to add to that.

Ms Siobhan Curran

Others might wish to comment, but the point I want to add is that the small island developing states, SIDS, were raising the issue of loss and damage 30 years ago because of sea level rise. I agree with the Deputy. At the COPs I have attended, one cannot be but moved by the people who are highlighting how critical is this. While European leaders speak of grandchildren, these people are speaking of their here and now. One element of the loss and damage fund is to deal with issues like sea level rise or the impacts of climate disasters when they happen. There is also the need for adaptation funding. That is a strong message coming from SIDS and other countries. Others might want to add to that.

Mr. Ross Fitzpatrick

One of the initiatives announced at COP27 to address loss and damage is something called the global shield. Ireland pledged €10 million in funding to the global shield, along with Germany and a number of other developed countries. This was sold as a solution to the ask from developing countries on the need to provide adequate loss and damage funding. However, one of the issues with the fund is that it is largely insurance-based. From research that Christian Aid has done, we know that insurance-based mechanisms do not cover slow-onset events such as sea level rise and desertification. In response to the Deputy's question, I would say that we need to make sure that when we are drawing up plans to ensure that funding reaches the most vulnerable first, as we are doing now, it does not exclude slow-onset events like sea level rise and desertification, which are actually excluded by some of the solutions that are being sold to us by certain countries.

Chairman

I have a general question for Ms McKenna on the many issues raised. I ask for her view, or indeed that of her colleagues, on the specific role that this parliamentary committee might have. We are very grateful for this engagement. So far, it has been on an annual basis. Last year the witnesses appeared from Glasgow and we are engaging with them now as a consequence of COP27 in Egypt. For example, the role that we have in the monitoring of the sustainable development goals, SDGs, is part of our terms of reference. We meet with some of the witnesses, from time to time, in that context. How do governments ensure that there is a parallel process here and that there is not something of an overlap between reaching our 2030 targets in the sustainable development goals and these newer commitments in respect of climate? We have a weekly reminder of our role in the SDGs in the form of a physical manifestation of the badge on Deputy Stanton's jacket. We visit this issue from time to time, notwithstanding the real challenges or the failure to reach certain targets. We see the Irish Department of Foreign Affairs as being the lead Department and we, as a parliamentary committee, have a clear function.

We are almost halfway through the period of the strategic development goal, SDG, actions. There are challenges in the cost-of-living and energy crises. There are ongoing wars and other conflicts, particularly in the Horn of Africa. We see famine and climate change. All of this is wrapped up in the challenging consequences of Covid-19.

I believe Ms Curran mentioned a sum of $550 million, which I take it is the new fund announced at Sharm el-Sheikh. I was pleased to see the Taoiseach, on behalf of Ireland, pledging at least €225 million per year by 2025. What is that funding pledged towards and where is the shortfall? Mr. Fitzpatrick mentioned Kenya and Pakistan. Are we committing €225 million per year to loss and damage or adaptation or both? What should our committee be monitoring by way of parliamentary engagement so as to ensure that the issue can remain high up the agenda? Where does this funding stand vis-à-vis the SDGs?

I acknowledge the hard work and commitment shown by Ireland in having loss and damage on the agenda in the first instance and in also reaching what might be described as a reasonably successful conclusion. Our officials at governmental level and all of the witnesses at non-governmental level put their backs into this work. It was a great achievement, but it will only be as good as the follow-up. How best can we utilise our resources, being an all-party parliamentary committee, and what types of target would the witnesses like to see us framing for ourselves in the ongoing context?

Ms Jane-Ann McKenna

I will address the Chairman's question in two parts. It was clear that the Irish delegation was strong at COP27. Significant work was done by the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, and his colleagues to get it across the line. We want to see that leadership continuing on the global stage. This is not a moment that has passed. Instead, we have an opportunity to engage, particularly on the loss and damage fund, and to continue our leadership. I encourage the committee to support the Government and other colleagues who are championing Ireland as a leader in this regard.

We can have significant influence politically and in terms of our policy, but it comes down to our financial commitments. The Chairman rightly stated that Ireland had committed €225 million per annum by 2025. In 2020, that funding stood at €88.3 million. There are three pillars. We have indicated that much of this money is going into adaptation, but there is a new pillar on loss and damage. What are our targets under each of the three pillars, how will we achieve the €225 million target by 2025 and what will our level of ambition be beyond 2025? The $550 million that the ODI recommended is Ireland's fair share, so this is also about holding the Government and the Department to account for reaching the €225 million target by 2025, when what is actually being proposed by the research as a fair share is more than $550 million. It is a question of trying to square these amounts and of seeing not only how we can step forward politically, in our policy contributions and in what we would like to see in terms of the loss and damage fund, accountability, transparency and equity, but also how we can be transparent within our own contribution in terms of how and where it is being spent and whether we are stepping up with our fair share.

Chairman

Would Mr. Sadlier like to respond?

Mr. Maurice Sadlier

I was going to reply to Deputy Stanton's question around future generations and note that, if Ireland wanted to be progressive, we could be like Wales, which has appointed a commissioner for future generations to take into consideration how current decisions and actions can be balanced with the needs of future generations. In the UN, Ireland has been supportive of a declaration for future generations that is being worked on currently. These are the types of development that the committee can remain apprised of with a view to encouraging Ireland to take on board the needs of future generations, including Ms Ramadhani's children and grandchildren, so that we leave the world in a better place than we found it.

Mr. Simon Murtagh

The Chairman is asking all the right questions about accountability in our spending in this area, including the three pillars, possible duplication between them and ODA. Coming back from Glasgow last year, I was not the only one to have a sense of concern and frustration about accountability and parliamentary involvement in this area. Thinking about my past here, I wondered whether a sub-committee – we do not have sub-committees at the moment – or a joint sitting of the climate committee and this committee would be appropriate. It would be something that allowed for parliamentary accountability, given that this area is going to grow to at least €225 million per year, which is a substantial amount. It is Oxfam's policy to try to increase parliamentary engagement in this regard to improve oversight and accountability. That is what we believe should happen at the Irish level.

At ground level, what Ms McKenna has been describing are what we used to refer to as coalitions of accountability that reach right down to the ground. Local communities, local politicians and local media have roles to play. We have seen this in studies of aid effectiveness, which is what I used to work on in the Oireachtas. The principles I have outlined should be applied at the local level in Ms McKenna's community and at our level in the Department. That is how we would view the matter.

Ms Siobhan Curran

A role for this committee in communicating with the Minister and reiterating some of the key points would be helpful. At COP27, Ireland, as the lead negotiator with the EU, played a significant role in getting this over the line. That is a good point to build from. Ireland could ensure that the fund was equitable and applied all the principles we have discussed.

At COP27, I was struck by the discussion on the new sources of finance and Prime Minister Mia Amor Mottley's interventions, as at COP26. She is showing leadership in proposing structural changes. We have to shift from billions of dollars to trillions of dollars in global finance. She spoke about structural changes such as how the IMF operated special drawing rights. She also spoke about debt cancellation.

This would be in the case if a climate impact hit a country that debt could be stopped for that period. It is very much thinking big about this. Ireland, if it continues with its grant-based finance and increasing that in line with our fair share, but also bringing forward these big new ideas, can play a very strong role in big picture ideas and in the international sphere.

My final point is on the role of the Department of Finance in that, and perhaps there could also be communication between this committee and the Minister for Finance on these issues.

Chairman

I thank Ms Curran. If there not any other questions or brief observations from members I will return to Ms McKenna for a closing comment, or perhaps Ms Ramadhani or Mr. Sadlier would like to leave us with a parting message. I will leave it to Ms McKenna to work that out.

Ms Jane-Ann McKenna

I will turn to Ms Ramadhani and Ms Meriwas for a closing remark because it is brilliant both of them are here to join us today. It is important that in every conversation we have around climate or food security, or on the impact of climate change, that we include the voices of those who are most affected. I will hand over to Ms Ramadhani in the first instance now for any closing marks or observations she may wish to make.

Ms Shania Ramadhani

I thank the committee very much for inviting me to this meeting. In Tanzania, the chief area I represent in my speech here today, we need help to allow other girls to continue studying at school. We have seen that at this time many children have should have a chance. We have seen that it is not good but that a child have an education to allow her to continue her work and which can help her in developing her life. Please continue giving us help for children and youth. I also ask Ireland to help to continue the participation of children and youth to protect their environment. I thank the committee.

Chairman

I thank Ms Ramadhani for those comments and for being with us. I call Ms Meriwas.

Ms Jane Meriwas

I thank the ladies and gentlemen of the committee so much for this great opportunity for Samburu. It will go down in history for us to have the opportunity to talk to the committee. I also hope that in the future the committee can continue doing the good work it has been doing and that it continues pushing the legislation, pushing around issues of accountability, and where these are missing.

The Irish Government is supporting significant aid globally and not just in Africa. We hope that the same aid reaches the intended group, who are mostly women and girls. Ms McKenna and myself, an indigenous woman from far away, will also have the opportunity to access all of the information by sitting here, giving our information, and giving hope and stories from the ground. This is what I hope to see in the future, whether that is Ms McKenna or another local girl or woman, but this is what we call accountability. Some 20 or 21 women’s trusts in Kenya receive Irish aid to support women and girls with cash trusts through Oxfam and this is the hope that I am bringing. It is not that we are saying that the aid Ireland is giving is not reaching the right people but that Ireland should continue to press for more accountability and transparency, and to also ensure that there is education, so that those who are receiving understand what they are receiving and what it is meant to be offered it. I thank the committee so much and I ask God to bless it.

Chairman

I thank Ms Meriwas, Ms McKenna and all of our guests for the work they are doing not only on behalf of Ireland but for and on behalf of the most vulnerable people across the world. We thank them for coming in this afternoon and we look forward to further engagement early in 2023. I also thank our guests for dealing with the observations and questions of members of our committee and for the manner in which they did this.

Ms Jane-Ann McKenna

I thank the Chairman.

The joint committee went into private session at 4.46 p.m. and adjourned at 4.49 p.m. sine die.