Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Defence debate -
Tuesday, 7 Mar 2023

Update on Civil Defence: Discussion

An Cathaoirleach

I wish to advise people on the matter of Covid-19. Those who are present in the committee room are asked to continue to exercise personal responsibility to protect themselves and others from the risk of contracting Covid-19.

I am delighted that our single-item agenda this afternoon is a meeting with representatives from Civil Defence, who will brief the committee on its work, its plans, and its priorities for the coming year and the next year.

We are meeting in the context of our select committee being charged with dealing with Committee Stage of the Civil Defence Bill 2023, which we hope to have before us before the end of the month. I am delighted to formally welcome, from the Department of Defence, Ms Aileen Nolan, director, Ms Emer Dalton, principal officer, and Mr. Aidan Dillon, assistant principal officer. We are joined live on Microsoft Teams by Mr. Niall Twomey. Mr. Twomey, who is very welcome, is Civil Defence officer with Cork County Council. We are also joined by Mr. Fergal Conroy, Offaly County Council Civil Defence officer; Mr. Dennis Keeley, chief fire officer of Dublin Fire Brigade.

The format of our meeting is in the usual manner. We will hear an opening statement, which will be followed by a question-and-answer session with members of the committee. I ask members to be concise in their questions, allowing all members the opportunity to participate, and hopefully, we will have a second round.

I advise witnesses and members of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it in any way identifiable, or otherwise in engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of that person or entity. Therefore, if any statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with such a direction.

I want to thank Deputy Berry for making the suggestion that we would have today's engagement, and I call on Ms Aileen Nolan to make her opening statement.

Ms Aileen Nolan

I thank the Cathaoirleach and the committee for their interest in Civil Defence. Officials from the Department of Defence met the committee here on 4 October last for pre-legislative scrutiny of the Civil Defence Bill 2023.

As I outlined at my previous appearance, Civil Defence is a statutory, volunteer-based organisation. There are a number of key documents that provide detail on the strategic direction of Civil Defence, and these include the White Paper on Defence of 2015, and Civil Defence - Towards 2030.

In the White Paper on Defence of 2015, the Government committed that the future of Civil Defence will continue to be developed around its central strategic objective of supporting the principal response agencies, which are An Garda Síochána, the HSE and the local authorities; Departments and State agencies in a variety of emergency and non-emergency situations. This embraces the large number of support roles under the framework for major emergency management, MEM, including assistance in dealing with a wide range of emergencies at national and local level, including severe weather, flooding and searches for missing persons.

The Government also recognised the important role of local government in the management of Civil Defence and wished to support the continued role of local authorities in fostering the contribution of Civil Defence. In line with this, the Department of Defence has regular engagement with the County and City Management Association, CCMA, to discuss Civil Defence matters.

The Department of Defence also convenes the Civil Defence interagency guidance team, IGT, twice a year. The IGT comprises representatives from the Civil Defence branch of the Department of Defence, the Office of Emergency Planning, the national directorate for fire and emergency management, An Garda Síochána, the Defence Forces, the HSE, the CCMA, the Civil Defence Officers Association and a representative of the Civil Defence volunteers. The IGT helps to ensure that Civil Defence services and capabilities are developed in line with strategic objectives.

A major policy document called Civil Defence - Towards 2030 was published in 2020. This policy document, which is the outcome of a review initiated in September 2018, sets out Civil Defence roles and services into the future, and they are: emergency response, search and rescue, medical response, community assistance and a radiation monitoring service. The review involved consultation with all stakeholders including Civil Defence officers and volunteers, the IGT, and the principal response agencies.

An implementation plan for Towards 2030 was put in place by the Department. Examples of actions arising from the policy document include one that each local authority Civil Defence Unit should have trained personnel and equipment to allow it undertake each of the five core services and another, which was to review and establish an appropriate fleet size for Civil Defence. The implementation plan is ongoing and updates on progress are provided to the IGT, the CCMA and the management board in the Department of Defence.

I will turn now to operations. The Civil Defence role in emergency situations is laid out in a number of national policy documents, namely, the Strategic Emergency Management: National Structures and Framework document of 2017, and A Framework for Major Emergency Management of 2005.

The framework for major emergency management sets out common arrangements and structures for front-line public sector emergency management in Ireland. The framework sets out that the local authority major emergency plan should include details of Civil Defence resources and the protocol for mobilising Civil Defence should be included as part of the local authority major emergency mobilisation procedures.

Where resources permit and with the agreement of the local authority, Civil Defence will continue to support appropriate community events. These events can provide an opportunity for Civil Defence volunteers to practice their skills while contributing to the community.

Each local authority has overall responsibility for the day-to-day operations within their area. These operations are carried out by the Civil Defence unit in each local authority.

Civil Defence services are delivered at local authority level through the Civil Defence officer, CDO. The CDO is a full-time employee of the local authority who works under the overall direction of the relevant chief executive. In recent years, the Department of Defence has agreed to provide additional funding for the appointment of assistant Civil Defence officers, ACDOs. The funding is made available on the basis that the appointment of a permanent, full-time ACDO will improve the resilience and capacity of the unit. Some 22 units have now appointed ACDOs.

There are 28 Civil Defence units around the country based in their respective local authority. Some units are shared by more than one local authority, for example in Dublin, where there is a single Civil Defence unit covering the four local authorities. Within larger counties, there are sub-units based in different training centres. For example, Wexford Civil Defence has sub-units in New Ross, Gorey, Enniscorthy and Wexford town.

During 2022, Civil Defence volunteers completed 3,635 taskings. Support for Ukrainians was a major feature of Civil Defence work in 2022. Covid-related work also continued in 2022, as did more regular work such as assisting An Garda Síochána with missing persons searches and community events.

Volunteers are recruited, trained and managed locally. It is for each local authority to determine the appropriate number of volunteers in that county. In determining this number, factors that are considered include the geographic size, topography and population of the county. It also includes the activity in that county of other volunteer-based organisations, for example the Red Cross or the Order of Malta.

Civil Defence comprised 2,451 volunteers as of 24 February 2023. In 2020, as part of the three-year planning cycle in Civil Defence, each local authority confirmed the volunteer numbers required to deliver core services. The total figure was 2,857. Local authorities are currently submitting their Civil Defence plans for 2023 to 2025, and again they have been asked to identify the number of volunteers required in their Civil Defence unit. It should be noted that Covid-19 significantly restricted the ability of local authorities to recruit volunteers.

Regarding accommodation for Civil Defence, it is stated in the White Paper on Defence that it is the responsibility of each local authority to provide suitable accommodation for their Civil Defence unit. In recent years, several local authorities have made significant investments in this area. For example, both Meath and Monaghan county councils have recently built new training centres for Civil Defence, while Westmeath and Clare county councils have purchased existing buildings and adapted them for Civil Defence use. Similar projects are expected to start in Cavan, Dublin and Laois.

While it is the responsibility of the local authority to provide accommodation, the Department of Defence provides some funding to support local authority efforts. Typical grant funding of €150,000 has been provided to assist with these projects in recent years. The Department welcomes the investment made by these local authorities, and is happy to engage on any proposed projects for counties which would benefit from further investment.

I will turn now to plans and priorities for 2023. There are a number of national priorities for Civil Defence in 2023, and these include the Civil Defence Bill 2023. As members are aware, the Civil Defence Bill is due to be examined by the committee in three weeks' time. Currently, the legislative basis for Civil Defence comprises the Air-Raid Precautions Acts 1939 to 1946, together with amending legislation enacted in 2012. To reflect the current role of Civil Defence, there is a requirement for more modern legislation.

The second national priority relates to the launch of the volunteer equipment and management system, VEMS. In March 2021, following a public procurement process, the Department entered into a contract with Codec for the provision of a new online Civil Defence volunteer and equipment management system. This will allow for more efficient management of Civil Defence volunteers, their training and activities. It will also assist with equipment and vehicle management. Volunteers will have access to the system via their smartphone. The system will also provide valuable management information, which will allow for the planning and resourcing of Civil Defence going forward. There has been significant collaboration between the Department of Defence, the County and City Management Association, CCMA, and Civil Defence officers in developing this system. The new system is expected to go live in mid-2023.

The third national priority to which I want to draw the committee's attention is the review of local authority three-year plans for 2023 to 2025. Local authorities are in the process of submitting their three-year plans to the Department. The Department will then analyse these plans and use them for planning, for example, to identify training needs in the coming years.

In summary, there is significant work ongoing at both policy and operational level to continue to develop Civil Defence in its primary objective of supporting the principal response agencies, Departments and State agencies during national, regional and local emergencies and for non-emergency events.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

I thank the Civil Defence officers for being here today. I have great memories of my time with the Civil Defence as a young man and indeed as a drill instructor for competitions. It is a great organisation. I have a bit of a problem, though. We seem to duplicate a lot of services in the country. We have the Coast Guard carrying out search and rescue, and we have Civil Defence carrying out search and rescue. It strikes me that all search and rescue should come under the one department. Given the number of volunteers and the disciplinary structure that exists within the Civil Defence service, it strikes me that Civil Defence should encompass search and rescue for the nation including seagoing, air and land search and rescue, mountain rescue and so on. I would be interested to know what the members present think about that.

An Cathaoirleach

I will take questions from a number of members first. Deputy Brady is next and he will be followed by Deputy Berry.

Deputy John Brady

I thank the witnesses for coming before our committee. The praise goes without saying, as I stated back in October when we had them in for prelegislative scrutiny. I want to drill down into a few specifics. The volunteers do phenomenal work but there seems to be a little bit of confusion around the numbers. It is not confusion but it is not apparent what the establishment number should be, whether it is set by local authorities or where it comes from. The Towards 2030 document, published in 2020, talks about approximately 3,500 volunteers. A Civil Defence newsletter that came out in 2021 referred to 3,072 active volunteers. In the briefing notes we got and the witnesses' own documents it states that currently there are 2,451 volunteers in the Civil Defence. It states that the overall total required number is determined by each local authority. In 2020 it was 2,857. I am not sure what method is in place for recording the number of active volunteers. Is it solely down to each local authority to determine what the establishment number should be or is there an overall national figure which we seek to achieve?

It was said that Covid had a negative impact on recruitment and retention of volunteers. Have things picked up since then? Who is responsible for recruitment and bringing through the volunteers? Is it down to each local unit or is there a national campaign around recruitment? Could one of our guests talk us through that process? Speaking to people locally, they want to get involved. We have a proud tradition in Ireland of volunteering. I am not sure whether becoming a volunteer is easy to navigate or whether there is a high level of awareness of the route to becoming a volunteer within the Civil Defence. Is there a campaign planned or has there been any recent campaigns around recruitment? On the assistant Civil Defence officers, ACDOs, I note that 22 units have now appointed ACDOs, which is welcome. There are 28 Civil Defence units. Would I be right in saying there are still six units without an ACDO? What is the rationale around that? I would see it as a huge additional asset to have someone in that position. Is there a process ongoing in that regard?

Senator Craughwell talked about overlap of duties and responsibilities. I remember a time when my local Civil Defence used to fight fires. I am not sure whether that is still the case or is solely the remit of the fire service, be it a retained or full-time service. I am not sure where things are in that regard. Members of the Civil Defence tell me about search and rescue operations and in some horrific cases the retrieval of victims' bodies. Is a counselling service provided to volunteers? That is a critical part particularly in dealing with trauma coming from horrific situations like that.

I want to touch on collaboration with local authorities and fire services, particularly around situations like gorse fires which are becoming more problematic with climate change and drier, warmer summers. There is a growing threat in rural Ireland. What kind of role does Civil Defence play in all of that? I know local authorities fund Civil Defence as does central government. I was a member of the local authority in Wicklow for a number of years. There was not massive levels of collaboration there between councillors and Civil Defence officers or anything like that. Is there scope for further collaboration? Local councillors are often the eyes and ears on the ground. There should be a greater role for that collaboration as local councillors are the ones who agree and set budgets every year and as Civil Defence is depending on local authority budgets as well.

Deputy Cathal Berry

Cuirim fáilte roimh gach duine. I want to start by conveying my complete appreciation and that of the committee for all the staff and volunteers at departmental level and in the uniformed services. It is an outstanding effort. We say of the Civil Defence that they always turn up and they do, particularly with Covid-19 and the Ukrainian crisis. It is hugely appreciated. I have a few questions to rattle through. I am not sure who will want to take them. I will leave that in the witnesses' capable hands. The first is about governance.

Civil Defence is a little unusual in that it falls between two Departments. That seems to be working quite well but, normally, it would either be under the Department of Defence or the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. Are the representatives happy with that arrangement? Should a lead Department be designated? Maybe they are happy with how things are. I have a second question on governance. I totally appreciate the local ethos of the Civil Defence but if there was a large emergency, God forbid, is there a national commander of the Civil Defence, either in Newbridge or elsewhere? If there is not, is that something the Government should consider?

I am intrigued by the performance of the Civil Defence in recruitment and retention. It has approximately 2,500 people and is keeping that number quite stable. Its sister agency, the Reserve Defence Force, RDF, is in the opposite situation at present. Many barracks have been closed in the past 25 years and the footprint for the RDF has completely collapsed. Is it fair to say a factor in recruitment and retention for the Civil Defence is it has that local ethos, has a base in each local authority and is maintaining it? The second part of the recruitment question, from an RDF perspective, is that trying to get into the RDF is like getting into Fort Knox at present. There is a medical, a fitness test and reams of paperwork. Will the representatives outline how easy it is to get into the Civil Defence? Does it have all those bureaucratic steps or does someone just show up, express an interest and get stuck in?

On training, there is a civil protection understanding across Europe, where units train together and cross-train internationally. Does the Civil Defence engage with like-minded units, either civil defence or civil protection, abroad? Does it send people abroad to train? Does it accept international students to Roscrea, for instance, for training? If it does not, is it something it might like to explore and consider? I will follow on from that in conjunction with Senator Craughwell's contribution. I have previously mentioned, and I recognise it is easier said than done - the earthquake scenario in Turkey is probably a better example rather than just Syria - but Ireland did not send any boots to be on the ground there at all. Is that a role the representatives see the Civil Defence potentially filling? Are they in favour of it happening in principle? If they are, what steps will be required to ensure Ireland is in a position to provide Civil Defence people abroad to deal with the next natural disaster?

I am intrigued by the Civil Defence promotion system. How does it train its leaders? Does everybody join at the lowest volunteer level? Is there a leadership training programme, for instance, that would bring people to the higher levels?

Hopefully, we will never need to use the Civil Defence radiation monitoring service, but we are aware of what is happening in Zaporizhzhia, Ukraine. It is in occupied hands at present and is the largest nuclear facility in Europe. How up-to-date is Ireland's national radiation monitoring service? Is it something we need to monitor before things get any worse?

I am also intrigued by the Civil Defence's drone technology. It has really embraced drone technology from a search and rescue point of view. Where are we with the drone programme? How effective is it? That is probably enough questions, if that is all right. I very much appreciate it.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Deputy. There are quite a number of questions over a range of topics. I propose to go back to Ms Nolan and the team now. I will then resume shortly with Deputy Stanton, followed by Senators Wilson, O'Reilly and Ardagh. That might be better rather than having a huge bank of questions lined up towards the end of the meeting.

I hope Mr. Twomey does not feel something of an outlier. He is very welcome to join in as he deems appropriate.

Mr. Niall Twomey

I thank the Chairman.

An Cathaoirleach

Maybe Ms Nolan will monitor the distribution of issues members might wish to comment on. I am very conscious of hearing from operational people on the ground as well as the director team.

Ms Aileen Nolan

I thank the members for all those questions. We will work our way through them. We can group some of them as we go.

I will address Senator Craughwell's question on the Department of Transport, the Coast Guard and a possible duplication of services. I will also touch on Deputy Berry's question on the similar issue of governance falling between two Departments. The governance issue was looked at as part of Towards 2030. It was considered whether Civil Defence should be moved to the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage but it was felt it was already working out very well. It was decided as part of that policy to leave it the way it is.

On Senator Craughwell's question on the Coast Guard, there is a different focus in respect of maritime search and rescue. In our policy document, Towards 2030, search and rescue is one of the objectives but is not the overall objective. As I said, there is also emergency response, medical response and community assistance so it is a slightly different focus. Again, we do not see enough synergies there. It is a very different focus and we do not see that those services should be joined up.

The second question was around the numbers. Deputy Brady asked about confusion around the numbers as regards establishment numbers versus what we report as active volunteers. He is right that different numbers have been bandied around. The number of active volunteers is approximately 2,600. Prior to that, we saw numbers of 3,500 or 4,000 mentioned but the reality is, as data have improved, volunteers were there who were not active volunteers but were on the system. We have cleaned up the data and, during the Covid pandemic, some people stepped back from volunteering. We think 2,600 or so is the correct number for active volunteers at the moment.

On how we decide what the establishment of the right number should be, as I mentioned, each Civil Defence unit, through the three-year plans, decides for its local county based on a number of factors, including geography, topography and population, what services need to be provided and, therefore, the number of volunteers they need. The last time around, when the three-year plans came in, it was coming in at approximately 2,800 volunteers. We are now getting new plans in for the next three years. We will have an updated number when we get all those plans in and collate the information. Does Mr. Dalton want to contribute on that?

Ms Emer Dalton

On the numbers, a volunteer register is compiled within each unit. That is what the number is taken from. Since that register changes, the number also changes. Rather than confusion, it is an accurate number at a point in time and that changes over time. Ms Nolan touched on the volunteer and equipment management system, VEMS, which will modernise all that data and will give very useful information for future planning.

Ms Aileen Nolan

The next question was on recruitment. I will ask Mr. Conroy to answer that.

Mr. Fergal Conroy

On recruitment, it is normally up to the local unit to decide what to do. I have just taken over in County Offaly in recent months, since last June or July, and the unit was not quite active. Numbers were on paper but not actually on the ground. In the last period, and I am only getting my feet under the table and getting sorted out, we received 12 application forms and retained eight of them, of which five were male and three female applicants. Since then, and when a county becomes more active on social media and so on and so forth, I have seen increasing queries from people. The process involves an application form being filled out and we have a number of minimum training standards everyone has to abide by. Applicants must have Garda vetting, cardiac first response, CFR, certification, manual handling qualifications, and induction within the organisation itself. Those are the four main criteria we follow.

It then depends on the different services that are active in a county. Some counties, for example, Wicklow, may be more into the fire end of stuff, while Laois-Offaly might be more hands-on and on the ground or whatever. It depends on local arrangements. However, it is regionalised in that we have regional training for different services, such as Laois-Offaly or Westmeath, within our region. For example, my region is Laois-Offaly and Westmeath-Longford.

Deputy Cathal Berry

There is no medical and no fitness test.

Mr. Fergal Conroy

There is no medical at the moment, no. It is probably something that should be in place down the road, depending on the age profile of applicants.

There have been a lot of numbers on paper, and I can vouch for the numbers I have seen through the years. I was in Roscommon for a reasonably short period before returning to Offaly. It was the same thing. We had a lot of people on paper. With the new system coming in, that will be more streamlined in the future. It will be better for the organisation in the long term.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

Is the Manpack programme still operating?

Mr. Fergal Conroy

No. At the moment they are looking at new search and rescue capabilities for building rescue and rope rescue. Those are being looked at currently. The rescue side of things will be upgraded in the future.

I want to answer a question that was asked about going abroad. We were talking about volunteerism and local volunteers. It is quite hard for people to take a lengthy period of time off to go on an overseas trip to help out in other countries. It is more local.

I will answer Senator Craughwell's question about the coastguard. When operating inland, the Civil Defence is usually more active than the coastguard. The coastguard is more active on the sea and its skillset is different.

Ms Aileen Nolan

I want to give Mr. Twomey, who is attending remotely, a chance to add to that.

Mr. Niall Twomey

I will add to what Mr. Conroy has said. In recent years, each unit has streamlined its numbers because of mandatory training requirements for volunteers. Previously we may have had between 90 and 100 volunteers on the books in west Cork, but currently we have 60 active and committed members. That is reflected all over the country too. That is why there may be a slight overall reduction in overall national volunteer members.

I will address Senator Craughwell's original question about duplication of effort between the Civil Defence and the Irish Coast Guard. I am currently the chairperson of the voluntary emergency services for the Cork-Kerry region. I see at close hand the skills and capabilities of the Civil Defence, the Irish Coast Guard, the Red Cross, Kerry Mountain Rescue, the search dogs and the various voluntary agencies. Each one brings its own niche skill. When it comes to a missing person search, all of those work and blend well together. Each of those voluntary agencies has its own core identity. It works well at the moment, so I would not see any great requirement to bring those organisations under one umbrella. There are eight major emergency management regions nationally, and good co-ordination takes place in those areas.

On Deputy Berry's question, I agree that it would be worthwhile to develop a specific leadership module for Civil Defence volunteers. What we do with our volunteers is provide professional and personal development. The professional development comes from the medical, search and other qualifications they receive. I refer, for example, to swift water training. We can also provide personal development. We can develop people to make good decisions as leaders in challenging situations, to improve planning and preparation, and to channel their operational experience for the benefit of the organisation as a whole.

To answer another question asked by Deputy Berry, there is no overall national Civil Defence commander at the moment. There is a discussion to be had about the benefit of having an operations manager at national level. Currently, the Civil Defence branch in Roscrea does an excellent job in finance, training, policy and the technical and communications side. However, there is a gap there. We have gained experience from all of our different operations in recent years, including our searches, our work in severe weather, our dealings with Ukrainian refugees and our Covid experience. An individual with the right experience could co-ordinate efforts across the major emergency management regions and identify marginal gains to improve the Civil Defence overall as an organisation.

Ms Aileen Nolan

We have jumped ahead and covered some of the questions, but we can come back to them. When the National Emergency Co-ordination Group for national emergency is convened, Civil Defence branches represent the Civil Defence organisation at that forum even though there is no national commander. I will ask Mr. Keeley to speak further to this.

Mr. Dennis Keeley

The framework for emergency management, which has been referenced already, allows for emergencies to be scaled up to either a regional or national emergency. The local authority in whose functional area the incident has happened has a co-ordination function. For example, if the resources of additional Civil Defence units are required in Dublin, the Civil Defence officer in Dublin would take the lead co-ordinating role for the supplementary and additional Civil Defence units that arrive, and vice versa if they need to respond from Dublin to another area. That transcends into the fire service, but also for the Civil Defence. It is a mechanism for saying who is co-ordinating, rather than asking who is in control or who is in charge. That already exists, and is what would happen today in the event of a serious incident requiring co-ordination across multiple units of Civil Defence.

Ms Aileen Nolan

Deputy Brady asked us to confirm that 22 units have ACDOs at the moment. That is correct. There are three more in training which will bring the figure to 25. There will then be three left, and it will be up to the local authority in each case to consider whether it wants to have an ACDO. There will be just three left once those three are trained.

The next question related to overlapping duties when it comes to firefighting. We were asked whether the Civil Defence has a role in fighting gorse fires and so on. I will ask Mr. Dillon to answer that one.

Mr. Aidan Dillon

The role of the Civil Defence is as second-line support to the principal response agencies. In the case of fires, the fire service does the main firefighting. The Civil Defence does not engage in front-line firefighting. There is an exemption for gorse fires in Donegal, where the Civil Defence helps. Usually, the retained firefighters go in. As these gorse fires can go on for several days, the retained firefighters basically need a break. Civil Defence will then keep up the efforts, but it is very much in support of the front-line fire service. We offer other services that are very helpful to the fire service. Our drone capability is very useful, particularly in gorse and wild land fires. We have people who are trained to pump water and we have welfare teams that go out and feed fire crews to keep them going. Even firefighters need to be fed. That is our role in firefighting.

Ms Aileen Nolan

Mr. Dillon will also take the question on the availability of counselling services for volunteers.

Mr. Aidan Dillon

We have a critical incident stress management system, CISM, which is well established within the Civil Defence. As part of their induction, all of our people get some training in this. We have people in each unit trained in it. After an incident such as the recovery of a body from a river, there is a structure in place whereby volunteers are taken aside. It is sometimes referred to as "tea and buns," but we keep in touch and support our volunteers through that. We are linked into the Defence Forces, and some psychological support services from the Defence Forces have occasionally been deployed, when necessary, to do some work with the volunteers. Finally, there is a 24-7 helpline available to all of our volunteers if they are having particular issues. That is also available to them.

Ms Aileen Nolan

The next question from Deputy Brady related to the interaction or collaboration between councillors in local authority units and the Civil Defence. Mr. Conroy will take that one.

Mr. Fergal Conroy

In fairness, there is a very good working relationship between CDOs, local authorities and directors of services in the various areas throughout the country. The CDOs are asked to provide a briefing, perhaps once a year, on Civil Defence activities and also to attend at more regional or local meetings. In addition, they provide briefings and possibly demonstrations to new councillors and so on in order to provide an update on what the Civil Defence does within the local authority area.

Ms Aileen Nolan

We have covered the Deputy's questions on governance, whether there is a national commander and recruitment and retention. Is he happy with the responses to those questions?

Deputy Cathal Berry

Yes.

Ms Aileen Nolan

The next question related to whether there is joint training abroad and, if not, whether we should consider it. Ms Dalton will address that issue.

Ms Emer Dalton

There is European training in which Civil Defence officers participate on an individual level. There is no such training currently at national level. There is a focus on training nationally with the other principal response agencies, PRAs. There is significant collaboration with the National Ambulance Service and An Garda Síochána, for example. That is where there is a lot of joint training sessions, as well as with the Defence Forces.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

Does the Civil Defence still run competitions across counties?

Ms Emer Dalton

There has been a gap because of Covid. It has been a few years since the regional exercises, as they are known, took place, but there is an intention to run them again.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

Those competitions were great in their day.

Ms Aileen Nolan

The next question was sort of connected to that issue. It asked whether there is a role for the Civil Defence in sending people abroad, such as to Syria, for example. As I outlined, Government policy on Civil Defence is to support PRAs in responding to national, regional and local emergencies in Ireland. There is no role in current Government policy for the Civil Defence to deploy overseas. There are a number of issues in that regard. Mr. Conroy mentioned that there would be practical issues with sending volunteers overseas. They might receive the training but then be unable or unwilling to go overseas. Aside from that, I am aware the National Directorate for Fire and Emergency Management is currently considering the area of urban search and rescue. It has set up a subgroup that is considering the level of urban search and rescue required. This came up in the context of the Government task force on emergency planning and the question of whether Ireland should have capacity to send people abroad was raised. That sort of falls within the remit of the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, which is considering the matter. It is not currently an option for Civil Defence.

The next question related to promotion systems. That was addressed previously.

The next question related to radiation monitoring and the role of the Civil Defence in that regard.

Ms Emer Dalton

Radiation monitoring is a specific role. In the context of radiation, overall responsibility rests with the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications and the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA. The role of Civil Defence is to take radiation readings, which enhances the systems that are in place. For instance, Civil Defence collects samples of soil, water and vegetation and provides them to the EPA and other designated laboratories for analysis. It conducts mobile monitoring and assists with the implementation of control measures where required. An annual exercise is conducted in conjunction with the EPA. The monitoring equipment has been upgraded in recent years. The Civil Defence is not engaged in high-risk situations. It would not be sent out in the event of nuclear radiation or in situations requiring personal protective equipment and that kind of thing.

Mr. Fergal Conroy

To follow on from that, radiation monitoring is the service that has been ongoing longest since the organisation was founded in 1950. As Ms Dalton stated, the meters and other equipment were upgraded to more modern technology in recent years. Going forward, we can use iPads and laptops and so on when taking readings. We carry out annual radiation monitoring for the EPA. It is a good training exercise. The equipment is checked regularly. This year, an annual inspection and training are planned to take place in June or July.

Deputy Cathal Berry

It is a $64,000 question but if, God forbid, there was a leak from a reactor in Ukraine, are the witnesses confident that we, as a nation, have the equipment, people and wherewithal to deal with that rather than scrambling looking for answers a few hours after the incident? Are we as prepared as we ought to be? Is there anything the committee can do to assist in that regard?

Ms Aileen Nolan

Overall responsibility in that regard is not within the remit of Civil Defence. Rather, it is for the EPA and the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications. We probably cannot answer the Deputy's question. We are happy with the role we play, however, and what we can bring to the party.

The final question related to drone technology and its effectiveness. Ms Dalton will address that issue.

Ms Emer Dalton

Civil Defence has been at the forefront of drone usage in the past ten years and has enhanced its capabilities. Of the 28 units throughout the country, 21 have drone technology. Most recently, Civil Defence has been involved in a collaborative project with the Defence Forces, Science Foundation Ireland, Trinity College Dublin and the Tyndall National Institute to develop a drone radio relay system. It uses artificial intelligence, AI, technology. From a Civil Defence perspective, it would be particularly useful in the likes of missing person searches in inhospitable areas. This has been a focus for Civil Defence for the past ten years and will continue to be such going forward.

Mr. Twomey may wish to come in on the operational side.

Mr. Niall Twomey

Drone technology is a fantastic resource when it comes to missing person searches. The drones also have thermal imaging capability, which means we can carry out night searches. Drones are at the disposal of 21 of the 28 national units and that is an outstanding search tool to be able to bring to the operation when we get a request from An Garda Síochána to assist with a missing person search.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

How many pilots does the Civil Defence have for the drones? The witnesses may not know the answer to that. I do not wish to be unfair in my questions. The fact that 21 of the units have drone technology and what the Civil Defence is able to do with that technology is phenomenal and I offer my congratulations in that regard. Is it relying on one person in each of the 21 units, however, or are there more pilots available?

Ms Aileen Nolan

I do not have the exact numbers with me in terms of units across the country but we can get that information and provide it to the committee.

Mr. Fergal Conroy

There is a minimum of two, if not more, in some counties. Mr. Twomey might give his situation in his county.

Mr. Niall Twomey

In Cork west, we have three drone pilots. There is a drone pilot's licence from the Irish Aviation Authority. The situation is similar in most other counties. It is a significant time commitment for the pilots but their main motivation is to be able to support their community when that request is made.

Mr. Fergal Conroy

There are spotters as well as pilots. The spotters are trained to work and watch the camera and what is shown on the screen. There could be five or six people involved in any drone operation.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

I congratulate the witnesses on this. It is fantastic stuff. Well done.

Ms Aileen Nolan

That concludes the answers so far.

Deputy David Stanton

I thank the witnesses for coming in and for the work they do, particularly the volunteers. We must remember they do not get paid. They might get meals or uniforms and that kind of thing but they are doing it on a voluntary basis, which is fantastic.

There was reference to professional and personal development. In 2022, 2,917 certificates were issued to members for attending courses and reaching certain standards, which is phenomenal. It is amazing.

I have a number of questions. I asked a question previously and I understand we received a written response. Maybe we can put it on the record. What is the gender breakdown in the Civil Defence with respect to men and women? Could the witnesses give us an indication of the age breakdown? I would like information on the diversity breakdown with respect to people from other countries, who we might call the new Irish. I understand there has been an issue with recruitment in the past while and the establishment is smaller than the number of active members at the moment. It will probably be recruiting shortly. Does it go into schools and talk to students in transition year, leaving certificate and so on? Has it thought about doing that at any stage?

The only criticism I have is that the work the Civil Defence is doing is kind of a hidden secret. I am hugely impressed. I get the impression of a professional, modern and competent organisation. I contend a lot of people do not know about the work it does and perhaps that is something that should be addressed by the Department and others. Every time we pick up the newspapers, it is all negative news. This is really positive. It is doing great work.

I refer to searching for missing persons. I was involved in establishing the National Missing Persons Day ten or 12 years ago. There is a search management software and a number of instructors are involved in missing persons cases. Ms Nolan might talk us through what is involved in becoming an instructor, the kind of skills they have to learn and what the software does. We would be quite interested in hearing that. In 2022, the Civil Defence was involved in 152 missing persons searches, which is amazing. Ms Nolan might give us a rough idea of the outcomes. There were some huge successes and some people were found, which is fantastic.

Drones have been covered and I will not go over that again. There are minimum training standards. I take it that every member has to reach those standards. Those standards alone are quite good. Do many people apply to join the Civil Defence or is it not actively recruiting because it knows it would be swamped if people knew what it had to offer?

Is there an upper age limit? The Chair might like to join. Senator Craughwell has spoken about going back. The lower age limit is 18.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

It will still take me.

Deputy David Stanton

Deputy Berry asked about physicals. The Civil Defence does not have physical or psychometric testing, unlike the Defence Forces. I have a problem with such tests because they rule out a lot of people. It was mentioned that the Civil Defence might introduce them at some stage. I ask for the thoughts on that. What would be involved if it went down that route?

The Civil Defence engages with other jurisdictions. Is there another country with an organisation as good as it? Where else could it point to that has high standards, is doing a good job and it admires?

Overall, it is a really good story. The Civil Defence is doing great work and its volunteers are to be commended. It was involved in 3,635 operations in 2022, covering a range of areas, which is impressive. I like the fact that it recognised that Cork needs two units because it is a large county. There is another one in the city. That is impressive.

Senator Diarmuid Wilson

I welcome Ms Nolan and thank her for her presentation. I also welcome her colleagues from the Department of Defence and Mr. Twomey, Mr. Conroy and Mr. Keeley, representing the front line of the Civil Defence. Like other colleagues, I commend them on the excellent work to carry out on a voluntary basis on behalf of all us.

Some of the areas of interest to me have been covered. I have a few remarks and perhaps a question or two. The appointment of assistant Civil Defence officers is welcome because it gives full-time officers the opportunity to take some time off. I am aware they cannot even go on holidays without bringing their phones with them, something I know the witnesses are also aware of.

Deputy Stanton asked for examples of best practice throughout the world. Is there a similar organisation in the North? If so, is there any co-operation between the Civil Defence and that organisation? By extension, are there similar organisations in other European countries? What contact does the Civil Defence have with them? Is there a European body to which it is affiliated or a member of?

I ask Ms Nolan to elaborate on the EMS system. Regarding premises, it was mentioned that a number of counties have built purpose-built Civil Defence training centres. In my county, Cavan, a premises is being refurbished but €1 million had to be borrowed to do that. The €150,000 the Department allocated to the project is not enough. Since its inception, in respect of the funding of the Civil Defence organisation, the idea was that 70% would come from the Department and 30% from local authorities. My understanding is that the split is currently more like 50:50, or could even be 60:40. Local authorities have to cough up money in that regard. I would like to hear the comments of the witnesses on that.

What is the total budget for the Civil Defence? Has any consideration being given to increasing the budget for the purchase of equipment, given the inflationary nature of some of the equipment that has to be purchased? Every other area has been covered.

Senator Joe O'Reilly

I come from the same area as Senator Wilson, as many in the room know. I was attending another committee meeting and missed the introductory remarks. It was unavoidable; I could not miss the meeting. I left it early to come here.

Having missed the presentation, I want to say that we in Cavan are proud of the Civil Defence. It has an excellent group. A good number of those involved come from the same area of the county I am from and I know a lot of them personally. They do extraordinary work and are very visible. A great number of people have been consistently involved in it down through the years. It is important in this context to affirm, commend and publicly acknowledge that. The presence of the Civil Defence in Cavan, and its membership, profile and work it does, are outstanding. That is implicit in all that Senator Wilson said. He is telling the witnesses that we want there to be further support for the Civil Defence, such is the quality of its work.

I wish to ask one or two questions. There has been a wonderful spirit of volunteerism in Ireland historically and traditionally.

Volunteering is very good for the individual who is volunteering and, obviously, for society. There is camaraderie among volunteers. There is a whole structure in place. It has been very much central to our State, culture and people for years. It goes back to the whole concept of meitheal and everything like that down the years. How is the spirit of volunteering now? There is a belief that in recent years, a greater individualism has developed and that volunteering is declining due perhaps to more complex working arrangements, people having families and mortgages and so forth. How is the Civil Defence finding the volunteering spirit? Is it diminishing or holding up? How is it impacting on the Civil Defence? I apologise if Ms Nolan addressed that in her opening remarks.

There have been many questions about training. I was going to ask about it but it would be repetitive to do so. I assume there is a personal development aspect. Apart from manual handling and the physical skill set, I presume there is an element of personal development for volunteers as they go along. It is important that they gain confidence and new skill sets and competencies. Ms Nolan might comment on how that is managed as volunteers go along.

I acknowledge the great work the Civil Defence did nationally and locally during Covid-19. The value of the Civil Defence was particularly visible to everybody during that time. Tragically, we are not free of pandemics yet, and there is risk of more in the future. Deputy Berry mentioned the awful and appalling vista of another Chernobyl. God forbid that that should happen. The Civil Defence will be very relevant in all these contexts. My only reason for making sure to come down to the committee room was to say how proud we are in County Cavan of the Civil Defence and the great work it does.

Senator Catherine Ardagh

I thank all the witnesses for coming in and Ms Nolan for her presentation. It has given us a real feeling of how the organisation works and the spirit of volunteerism. I have a few questions, the first of which is regarding drone use. Like my colleague, Senator Craughwell, and others, I commend the Civil Defence. Obviously, someone in the organisation really bit the bullet and decided to run with increasing the education of members with regard to drone use and piloting drones. The issue Dublin Airport Authority is having with drone use is well known. Does the Civil Defence envisage having to purchase and work out how to get training in anti-drone equipment, much of which is available? It seems the Civil Defence might be well placed to do so given its excellence and years of working professionally in the area. It would be interesting if Ms Nolan could elaborate on that.

Another issue I wish to ask about is funding. I know from Ms Nolan's presentation that the funding for the organisation is €5.4 million per annum it gets a small amount from the Dormant Accounts Fund. Is that capitation funding or is it year-on-year funding? Do the volunteers get expenses? The reason I ask about expenses is to try to figure out how many active members are in the Civil Defence. Based on who has received expenses in the last six months, we could probably figure out how many active members are in the organisation. That is more out of curiosity.

As a committee, we always ask what we can do to support an organisation. The witnesses may have asks for the Chairman at the end of the meeting.

I commend the Civil Defence for all the support it gave the State during Covid-19. Many of the professional volunteer organisations went above and beyond in terms of helping out during the pandemic. Ms Nolan might be able to tell me exactly what type of support that entailed. I do not know if the Civil Defence was involved in taking samples. I ask Ms Nolan to elaborate a little on that.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator asked a lot of questions. I call Senator Craughwell.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

So far, the Civil Defence has come across as an extremely professional, forward-thinking organisation. I am not one bit surprised. I have a couple of questions. My colleague, Deputy Berry, brought up in the Dáil some time ago the need for legislation to protect employment while volunteers in the Defence Forces are deployed overseas. Similarly, is there protection in place for Civil Defence volunteers who withdraw from the workforce to engage in search and rescue missions, which can sometimes take weeks? I am interested in that.

Does the Civil Defence have a written code of practice that its members have to sign up to when they become volunteers? If someone goes rogue as a volunteer, does the organisation have a system in place? I hate to be negative because everything today has been positive. If somebody is a problem, however, does the Civil Defence have a system to terminate his or her volunteer role and have that person withdrawn from the system?

Finally, I will go back to the good old days of the Green Goddess vehicles in the Civil Defence. I know we have come a long way since the Green Goddess. Does the Civil Defence train with local fire services and make use of the them for training purposes? Has it dealt with oil fires, particularly given that a number of places around the country carry bunker sea oil? If that takes off, it can be pretty terrible. Similarly, we have many gas storage areas. The thought of a boiling liquid expanding vapour explosion, or BLEVE, in one of these areas horrifies me every now and then. Does the Civil Defence prepare for such events? I will leave it at that. I thank the witnesses very much for the way they answered the questions. I look forward to hearing their responses.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Senator. Before I go back to Ms Nolan for a number of questions, I will add my voice to what members said in respect of the great work, much of which is carried out under the radar, undertaken on a daily basis by Civil Defence volunteers up and down the country. I acknowledge in particular the work that was done in respect of Covid-19 and certain works that are being undertaken now with regard to refugees. All of that is against the background of the ongoing work that is done on a daily basis.

I will add a few questions to those the members asked, if Ms Nolan does not mind. Looking at the plan towards 2030, I acknowledge that the implementation group was set up in 2021. We are rapidly moving through the decade. To what extent has Covid-19 upset or restricted the implementation plan? If it has, are there plans to accelerate implementation? If not, will the implementation targets set in the plan be realised? It is important that they are.

From anecdotal evidence, it seems that certain counties are regarded as strong counties while others are regarded as not having the same tradition and are therefore not regarded as strong counties. Is there a levelling up or mentoring programme in place? Is there ongoing encouragement on the part of the Department or directorate to bring everybody along?

Has each local authority plan been updated? Is that being strictly monitored to ensure everybody has a plan and is adhering to it? As was said earlier, that is against the background of having an overall Civil Defence operations command, which is a reasonable point. There may be tasks that are onerous or may even conflict with the letter of volunteerism. The fact of that matter is that people in counties where there is a strong and vibrant Civil Defence expect a professional response. In many respects, the Civil Defence could be a victim of its own success in parts of the country insofar as expectations on the part of the public are concerned, for example, with regard to training in the areas of search and rescue.

As I think was mentioned by Senator Wilson, does the Civil Defence have any contacts internationally with similar-type volunteer organisations? One area that does not strictly come under equipment but maybe it should, is the use of dogs. It is a kind of hybrid area. Are dogs being phased out, are they being encouraged, or what is the position there? It seems to me that the dog is a valuable tool but there are areas that do not engage in this type of activity. Then if there are counties which do have a dog or two, there are special requirements and special expenses attached.

I note in the opening statement the launch of the volunteer and equipment management system, VEMS. Can the operational members give us a view on the success or otherwise of the Civil Defence volunteer management system? Is it available all over the country? I acknowledge Senator Joe O'Reilly's comments when he parochialised matters by talking about Cavan. Allow me to talk about Laois very briefly. There has been a huge tradition of Civil Defence there. In recent times, there are international events such as the ploughing championships which is almost exclusively held in Laois now, and also the Electric Picnic. I do not see how these events with very large gatherings of people could be run as smoothly or as successfully without the presence of Civil Defence volunteers. I am sure they are all over the country but I mention two events here and their importance in those events.

There is a need therefore to ensure equipment, modernisation and the appropriate services are felt across the regions in the way they are in Cork as evidenced by Deputy Stanton's contribution. I thank witnesses for all their work. I hope that we as a committee, in conjunction with the Minister for Defence can ensure the matter of budgets is kept very much to the fore. There are inflationary pressures as have been mentioned. There is a constant demand for increased equipment and modernisation. I regard that as being a prerequisite for recruitment. People like to see a professional organisation; they expect to see a professional organisation. While often times this may go against the grain of the traditional spirit of Irish volunteerism, nevertheless in the 21th century - and I am sure explicit right throughout the 2030 document - is the need for a modern, well-equipped and well-respected organisation that is on top of the various changes that are necessary.

Ms Aileen Nolan

We will go back to the start of those questions and work our way through them. Deputy Stanton asked about the gender, age and diversity breakdown in the Civil Defence. We replied in writing the last time following our last appearance before the committee. We do not actually have the exact statistics until the VEMS goes live. Regarding gender breakdown, we sampled 100 volunteers and the results showed that 57% were male and 43% were female among our volunteers. In terms of our Civil Defence officers, 12 of 47, or 25%, of Civil Defence officers and assistant civil defence officers are female. At volunteer level, it is 43% female and at Civil Defence officer level it is 25%.

In terms of the age profile of volunteers, based again on the sample we had to use, 11% of volunteers were under 30 years old; 38% were aged between 30 and 40; 20% were between 40 and 50; 15% were between 50 and 60; and 16% were 60+. The majority of the volunteers are in that middle group between 30 and 50 and make up 58%. Then there are 30% over 50. That is how the numbers break down age-wise. In terms of the diversity breakdown, we do not record that information so we do not have that breakdown at the moment. I know from talking to Civil Defence officers, and Mr. Conroy may want to come in here, there is definitely a lot of diversity at volunteer level.

Mr. Fergal Conroy

Yes, there is a lot of diversity among the volunteers in recent years. As I said, I am only recently back as I have been off three months. I have three members from different cultures or from among the new Irish if you want to call them that. They are brilliant people. I actually have three and have a fourth person just started recently. That is four people in County Offaly, just to give an idea on that question.

Ms Aileen Nolan

The next question related to recruitment as well and whether we go into schools to do recruitment. We are aware people have to be 18 or over to join Civil Defence so I will let Mr. Conroy answer that question.

Mr. Fergal Conroy

With regard to recruitment, we actually have a joint operation tomorrow morning with a local county fire service in Offaly and the Civil Defence. We have joined up together and have transition year students coming in for three quarters of a day to see the fire service and the Civil Defence equipment. We will be doing hands-on CPR in training.

I can answer another question in that line as regards personal development. Volunteers join Civil Defence in some cases as a volunteer of 18 or 19 and when they move on through college or whatever, they end up working with the fire service or using it as a stepping stone into the HSE, the National Ambulance Service, or into actual hospital settings. There is a good stepping-stone arrangement there for people to move on into the emergency services area.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

Does the Civil Defence share members with volunteer fire services?

Mr. Fergal Conroy

No, we would not normally share members. There could be local arrangements. I am not sure of that.

Mr. Dennis Keeley

Certainly there are fire personnel who are in Civil Defence. They are lifelong members.

Ms Aileen Nolan

The next question was in relation to the fact that we sometimes see Civil Defence as a hidden secret. I suppose this is about communication and communicating the good things that Civil Defence does. I will ask Ms Dalton to take that one.

Ms Emer Dalton

In terms of communications and the work of Civil Defence, many of the local units have their own social media accounts in order to get the message out locally. There is also a national Civil Defence Twitter account which supports the work locally to try to expand the message and the number of people getting it. Then there are other national activities the Department tries to support. For example, there are plans to attend the National Ploughing Championships this year to increase awareness about Civil Defence and obviously on National Service Day across all the front-line services. Within the Department, we are also trying to move to an infographic format in how we communicate what we do to try to capture people's attention. We are conscious there is a lot of data out there. We have tried to move to an infographic format and it seems to have gained good traction with people as well.

Ms Aileen Nolan

The next question related to missing persons search technology; the mapyx system; and just generally on the 250 missing person searches and outcomes.

Mr. Fergal Conroy

We cannot give any breakdowns on the actual outcomes but I know in some cases we have been very lucky. For instance, in County Clare, there were three searches within a week of one another and two out of the three were positive outcomes. That is just one example I remember hearing about. In general it all depends on the timeframe, how long before the other services look for us, and how long before the person is actually reported missing. Time is of the essence in that regard.

Like that situation in County Clare, the result was very positive in those cases. Technology has changed. It used to be a map and a compass for searching; it is now based on iPads and all modern technology. We have a mapyx system. If we get a contact number from say the local person or garda involved in the search, we can clone the phone or try to get a message to that phone to see if we can get a response from it. We may also be able to pinpoint an area of search operation. In both counties, or even within a region, we have a command and control vehicle where we can use drone technology. We can download information from the drone camera to the communications unit which in turn can map the area out into different zones, colours and shades, and then the people are deployed on the ground.

Our communication systems have been upgraded in recent years. We now have the TETRA system through which we can talk to any Civil Defence unit across the country. Last week, for example, the incident in County Wexford started out as Wexford-specific, became a regional incident and then became a national incident whereby a number of counties outside of Wexford responded to the call for help.

I joined the organisation in 1985 as a volunteer. Over a number of years, I went through the volunteer process, moved up the ranks through all of the different levels and eventually became a commander in County Laois. In 2019, I applied for a job because the Civil Defence was my only hobby - I wonder why - and my hobby became my full-time job in Roscommon from 2019 to 2022. I am now back in County Offaly. That is my level but it is really down to the person. It is about local people in local areas giving something back to their communities in both good times and bad. The good times include the fleadhs, open days, commemorations and so on and the bad times include incidents like the one in 2017, when there was an horrific outcome to a flash flooding event in Mountmellick. The Civil Defence and the Defence Forces worked overnight and into the following day to keep people safe, moving people and furniture out of houses and moving people to alternative accommodation. That was a perfect example of local people being involved in their local communities through organisations like the Civil Defence. There is no organisation that comes close to the Civil Defence and what it does across the country.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

If the Civil Defence has my mobile phone number and I am lost on a mountain with a broken leg, can the organisation triangulate that and get GPS co-ordinates?

Mr. Fergal Conroy

Yes. That can be done and it has been done. Last October or November, we had a call on the Laois-Offaly border. I had only just moved but I was called from Laois to assist because I knew the area. The person was tracked using a phone signal. It was a person who knew the area well but the evening fell fast. The person decided it was time to call for help and the help arrived.

Ms Aileen Nolan

The next question was whether people are queuing up to join the organisation.

Mr. Fergal Conroy

It depends on what the local organisation does within the county, the working relationship with the local authority, and the structure of the Civil Defence office and the team around the officer. Social media can make a difference. Small things like constant and regular positive updates and information about what the organisation does, in both good times and bad, can trigger people and encourage them to get involved. It is not something that people can just join overnight. One cannot become a Civil Defence member in a few hours; it takes years of training and experience as well as an understanding of one's role and where one could end up. It could be very local, or it could be regionalised or national. When we put out messages, we see an increase in interest. There was no active social media account when I joined in Offaly but now that account is very active. It has grown through posting small snippets of information and we have gotten new members in because of that work.

Ms Aileen Nolan

Does Mr. Twomey want to come in on that?

Mr. Niall Twomey

No, Mr. Conroy has described it brilliantly. I would like to come in on two of the questions posed earlier. One related to the strong spirit of volunteerism in this country and the other was about the tasks undertaken during Covid. I will give one example. At Christmas time in 2021, a 14-year-old boy from Bantry in west Cork was in the national children's hospital. He had been paralysed from the waist down. The resources of the National Ambulance Service were fully stretched at the time so Dublin Civil Defence collected that boy at 2 p.m. on Christmas Eve and drove him all the way to Bantry. He was met there by his family. The boy and his mother had not been home in three months. The Civil Defence team turned up about an hour later, at 8 p.m. on Christmas Eve, and drove all the way back to Dublin. That is a perfect example of the exceptional professionalism and volunteerism of our members. It sums it up perfectly. The team comprised the Civil Defence officer in Dublin, the assistant officer and one of the senior volunteers.

Ms Aileen Nolan

One of the next questions was whether there is an upper age limit and the answer to that is "No". We were asked if we are considering introducing psychometric testing and the answer to that is also "No". There is not under consideration at the moment. The next question was whether there is a similar organisation in Northern Ireland. There is no similar organisation north of the Border. We were asked then if there are any other countries with comparable organisations and Mr. Keeley will respond to that question.

Mr. Dennis Keeley

I wish to broaden the discussion a little in the context of a number of questions that were asked about international responses and best practice. At a local level, a number of Civil Defence units engage in supporting training under the European Union Civil Protection Mechanism as instructors, assistants and course designers. That necessitates international participants either coming to Ireland to engage in training or people from Ireland going abroad to support that training. A number of Civil Defence personnel have been involved in that practice.

A range of countries have a strong ethos of volunteerism and Ireland's Civil Defence is in a strong and well-placed position in that regard. We have learned a lot from other agencies, including Technisches Hilfswerk or THW, a German organisation with in excess of 100,000 volunteers and more than 400 full-time personnel. It specialises in technical rescue and technical communications. It also has a long and proud tradition of international response. I contend that the Irish Civil Defence has taught THW a thing or two as well; it works both ways. There is a strong exchange of ideas and partnerships have evolved in that space and that has been very positive for Ireland and the members of the Civil Defence. That permeates down throughout the country in terms of those discussions and learnings. A lot of the Civil Defence volunteers are geeks in the area. They are passionate about the work they get involved in and will talk for hours about a certain radio, a certain mechanism for response or piece of equipment. They cannot help but cross pollinate that really useful information.

Ms Aileen Nolan

The next question related to the volunteer equipment management system, VEMS. I will ask Mr. Dillon to take that one.

Mr. Aidan Dillon

The VEMS is a new IT system that we are introducing into the Civil Defence. It has largely been built at this stage. We went to market a couple of years ago to see what was out there. It is quite an ambitious single system which will track our volunteers, their training and their Garda vetting, as well as recording their activities and their deployments. It will also be used for vehicle and equipment management and for issuing stock and equipment. It is quite an ambitious system and we are trying to do a lot of things with it. Individual volunteers will have access to VEMS through a portal on their smartphone or tablet. Volunteers will get notifications when, for example, their Garda vetting is due to expire or when any of their qualifications need to be updated by way of training or refresher courses. They will also be notified about their duties and can respond as to whether they are available to help out at a community event, for example. It is quite an ambitious system that is more or less finished. We are in final user testing at the moment. Then we will have to do training and some security testing on the system but we hope to go live around the end of May.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

Is it a bespoke system?

Mr. Aidan Dillon

It has not been built from scratch but is built on a platform. It is a customised platform rather than being built from scratch.

Ms Aileen Nolan

The next questions related to premises, accommodation and funding. As I said earlier on accommodation, it is the responsibility of each local authority to provide suitable accommodation for Civil Defence units. The Department makes a contribution to the local authorities in this regard and is quite happy to do so. We recently received a request from Laois to help with its new build.

That is the way the policy is set out in the White Papers and that is where it falls.

On funding, there were questions on what the total budget is and the 70:30 split or whether the reality is that it is a 60:40 split or even less. The overall funding, as members will have seen in the briefing document, from the Department of Defence for the Civil Defence is €5.4 million. Of that, approximately €3 million will be given out in operational grants to the Civil Defence units. Criteria are used to decide the level of operational grants that are given out, taking into account such things as a basic allowance, an allowance for CDOs, an allowance for ACDOs, the population allowance and an area allowance as a way of calculating how much each county effectively gets in its operational grant. The way it is set up is that we would provide 70% of the funding and local authorities provide 30%. However, in some cases the local authorities provide more than 30% and a higher figure than is necessary. The overall spend for 2023 would probably be in the region of €6.5 million, which means the local authorities will provide over €1 million.

Senator Diarmuid Wilson

On that, if the Department was giving 70% of the total cost, the local authorities would not need to give any more than 30% to reach 100% provided the 70% was being provided in its entirety.

Ms Aileen Nolan

The local authorities give a minimum of 30% but they can go higher. Let us say, for example, that the cap is €300,000. We give 70% of that and the local authority makes up the other 30% but it could give more so the overall spend would be higher than 100%.

Senator Diarmuid Wilson

Yes, but is the 70% part of an agreed budget towards each county?

Ms Emer Dalton

The main payment to the local authorities each year is an annual grant, and that is based on a formula which involves a range of criteria, such as the size and population of the county. It also involves the CDO salaries. We recently increased the allowance to incorporate the ACDO salaries as well so there are defined criteria in the main operational grant each year. Aside from that, there could be specific grants for specific reasons. For example, with the dormant accounts funding in recent years, there has been approximately €3 million in additional grants given out across the country and that has been focused on the renewal of the fleet in particular. A previous speaker referred to the cost of equipment. We focused on renewing the Civil Defence fleet across the country. That will be another €400,000 in expenditure this year. Then specific grants can be given for specific reasons or central funding can be provided. For instance, last year, when there was pressure to stand up rest centres for Ukrainians seeking protection in Ireland, sourcing camp beds was an issue. Some of those were sourced centrally and divided out. Where we can and where there is a particular squeeze, the Department will assist the local units in funding certain items.

Mr. Aidan Dillon

I mention the obligation on the council to provide the premises. Surely the obligation should be on the Department of Defence to provide funding towards that? A sum of €150,000 for a premises is ridiculous in this day and age.

Ms Aileen Nolan

The obligation is on the local authority to provide it, not the Department, but we would give a contribution towards it.

Senator Diarmuid Wilson

Is that towards the maximum of €150,000?

Ms Aileen Nolan

It has tended to be in and around that.

Senator Diarmuid Wilson

The committee will have to look seriously at that because it is not good enough. The councils are obliged to provide a lot of services to communities. The Department is not meeting its obligation, as far as I am concerned. If the council was not willing to provide premises or spend money on those premises, where would the Civil Defence operate from? It is ridiculous. The Department surely has an obligation to provide funding to local authorities to provide premises for these volunteers who are carrying out such a worthy duty on behalf of the public and the Department, which has an obligation to provide 70% of the funding towards the Civil Defence. Is it supposed to operate out of the back of vans?

Ms Aileen Nolan

It is agreed Government policy that the local authority provides suitable accommodation for the Civil Defence.

Senator Diarmuid Wilson

Then we have to look seriously at that issue, a Chathaoirligh.

An Cathaoirleach

We will. We have done work on that and it has gone to the Minister for Defence.

Ms Aileen Nolan

The next matter was equipment and dormant account funding, which Ms Dalton has covered. I will move to Senator Joe O'Reilly's questions on the spirit of volunteering, which we have covered off as well. We have also covered off the issue of the personal development of volunteers.

Senator Ardagh asked about drone use and whether the Civil Defence is looking at anti-drone capability. The answer is "No". The Civil Defence is not looking at that. As we know from the newspapers and a recent Government decision on anti-drone capability at Dublin Airport, the Dublin Airport Authority will provide that function. This is on the equipment development plan of the Defence Forces but there is no role for the Civil Defence to look at it.

We have covered the issue of the amount of funding for this year. The next question was on volunteer expenses. Only instructors get volunteer expenses but I will let either Ms Dalton or Mr. Conroy take that question.

Mr. Fergal Conroy

Only instructors for the two-hour class on a Tuesday or Thursday night get paid a minimum set fee. Volunteers do not get paid for active service such as turning up at events. That is only for instructors who are doing training at an event.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

Do the instructors get expenses?

Mr. Fergal Conroy

Yes. They get expenses to travel from their place of residence to where the class is taking place in the county.

Ms Aileen Nolan

Only the instructor gets expenses; the volunteers do not get them.

We were asked what the committee can do for us. Members can come and visit us in the Civil Defence. Members said they would like to do that and we would love to have them down.

On Covid testing and elaborating on some of the tasks, Mr. Twomey has covered that off unless Mr. Conroy wants to add to that.

Mr. Fergal Conroy

Anything that was requested was provided, within reason. In some counties we were able to do more than in others. In some we were involved in test centres and in others we were in the vaccination centres. Some were transferring patients and in the early stages we were all transferring samples to the laboratories in Dublin and Naas. Then we did whatever was asked locally with personnel, people, families and local arrangements. It was an ongoing undertaking. Figures were given earlier on the many tasks we were involved in during 2021 in that area.

Ms Aileen Nolan

I will move on to Senator Craughwell's questions on employee protection legislation. Volunteers are not employees; rather they volunteer. From a health and safety point of view, our duty of care to them is as if they are volunteers. There are, therefore, no plans to look at employee protection legislation for them at the moment.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

If one of the volunteers strays outside the family, is there a way of terminating his or her role?

Mr. Aidan Dillon

Yes. We have a code of conduct in place and there are disciplinary procedures there. Thankfully those cases are rare enough that those measures are adequate but ultimately a volunteer can be dismissed from the organisation.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

Is there an appeals mechanism?

Mr. Aidan Dillon

Yes. There is a full procedure. The chief executive of the local authority makes the final decision to terminate a volunteer's membership. There is a procedure in place.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

Great.

Ms Aileen Nolan

The next question was on whether the Civil Defence trains with the fire service. I will let Mr. Keeley take that one.

Mr. Dennis Keeley

Each local authority will determine its risk profile and the training profile sets out what disciplines it will focus on, which varies. In recent years, there has been a strong focus on emergency management and the requirements under the framework for same. Rest centres featured highly in that. Notwithstanding that, many local authorities still engage with the Civil Defence on firefighting capacity, predominantly around pumping capacity.

The Senator mentioned oil fires and BLEVEs, which pose particular hazards and are particularly dangerous. They do require a high level of competency and constant training. It is a huge challenge for volunteers to be actively involved in that. It is not considered appropriate that there would be any focus on that. The support that the fire side of Civil Defence has traditionally given is around pumping water. As I say, that focus varies from local authority to local authority. That focus changes on that interaction. In Dublin, for example, a unit is based in the fire service training centre at the O'Brien Institute on the Malahide Road. Civil Defence has a unit there. They use the facilities of the training yard and they have done for many years. As was mentioned earlier, there is a long tradition in many of the fire services of either being in Civil Defence or of having been in Civil Defence. I contend that the relationship between the fire service and Civil Defence has never been as good as it is at the moment. I hope that interaction continues as much as it can within the parameters particularly of health and safety.

Ms Aileen Nolan

We will move on to the Cathaoirleach's questions in on Towards 2030, on whether Covid-19 has impacted on the implementation of the plan and on whether the implementation targets will be realised. I will let Ms Dalton take those couple of questions.

Ms Emer Dalton

Towards 2030 and progressing some of its priorities have been impacted by Covid-19. Saying that, the implementation is ongoing. There are nine actions points that are shared between the local authorities and the Department. They are all on track and in train. The VIMS system, which we have touched upon twice today, will really enhance some of those action points. That will hopefully be a big win this year in relation to that. It is ongoing.

Reporting on Toward 2030 happens internally within the Department of Defence to its management board. We also update the County and City Management Association, CCMA, on that, twice a year.

Ms Aileen Nolan

I think the next part of the Cathaoirleach's question was whether there is a difference between counties, and whether different counties need to be leveled up. Every county is slightly different, as we said earlier. Their needs and their requirements are different. Did Mr. Conroy have anything he wanted to say about that?

Mr. Fergal Conroy

It basically depends on the numbers of people in the counties, the activities of the council and the requirements from the local authority within the council. It is unique. In general, across the board in the Department they are very fair. While you might not get everything this year, you may get a bigger slice of the pie next year, depending on whether your request is for a vehicle or specific equipment. Across the board, I think we are all fairly well looked after. Obviously, we would love more. Who would not, in any budgeting system? I think we get a fair share across the board in general.

Ms Aileen Nolan

We mentioned the three-year plans, which we are renewing. When the three-year plans come in, we at the Department level will review all of those, analyse them, and see what counties need what and how to support them.

Ms Emer Dalton

On the mentoring piece, I will give some examples of how the Department works on the ground. We have a technical section within the Civil Defence branch of the Department and we have a communications officer. They are on the road quite a bit.

Regarding successes in recent times, the drone or sonar capabilities will be rolled out across counties. There is a lot of mentoring on that site, as there is equally on the training site.

Ms Aileen Nolan

The next question was on international contacts with similar organisations. Mr. Keeley has covered that.

The next question was on dogs and canine capability, and Ms Dalton can touch on that.

Ms Emer Dalton

We still have canine capability. Two dogs were procured and trained up during 2022. They are very much a part. There are five in total and the dog handlers will travel to a search across county borders. There will be an event this Thursday in Ratra House, which will showcase the work of the dogs. If anybody is available, they are more than welcome to come down and see it for themselves.

Ms Aileen Nolan

The next question related to the launch of VIMS. From an operational point of view, if it is useful, as the Cathaoirleach will be aware, it has not gone live yet. It is in the final stages of user acceptance testing. It will hopefully be in the second quarter. From an operational perspective, there has been great co-operation between the Department and Civil Defence officers. From an operational point of view, does Mr. Conroy think it will make a big difference?

Mr. Fergal Conroy

It will make a big difference to the volunteers themselves. Instead of sending out direct emails to them for every event or activity that is going on, they will have a shared calendar whereby they will see within a county what is going on, for example, in Laois, Offaly, Kildare, Cork, Kerry or wherever it is. They will also be able to reply back to that, which will come back to the civil defence officer, CDO, or the assistant civil defence officer, ACDO, within the counties. From an organisational and management point of view, we will have a lot more access and an awful lot more built-in material behind for statistics, such as for how many people turned out to each event or how many nights of training they turned up at. Up to now, on the other hand, there was an awful lot of work on the CDO up until the past couple of years when the ACDOs were appointed. Now, the ACDOs are there. It will make the work more balanced and it will make a better work-life balance for everybody across the board. It will also make the volunteers able to see what they are doing, what their records are like and when they will come out on training. There is a certain responsibility on the volunteer as well to keep up to date with the material and the information.

Ms Aileen Nolan

That concludes the questions.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the witnesses on behalf of members and on my own behalf. Unless there are any further supplementaries, I will bring matters to a conclusion by saying this was an important engagement. The Civil Defence has been before the committee previously but it was important in the context of the forthcoming legislation. We value the update and the work that is being done right across the country. I want to thank the witnesses for meeting with us.

We have question-and-answer sessions most weeks with various stakeholders in government, but I have rarely heard so many direct answers to direct questions, and I thank them for that.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

They will know for next time.

An Cathaoirleach

They dealt with all our questions in a most comprehensive way. That gives us a very good impression of the work of Civil Defence. Regarding the invitation that has been extended during the meeting, I would like to accept on behalf of members. We will make arrangements to travel to Roscrea.

On behalf of the committee, I thank Ms Nolan, as director, as well as Ms Dalton and Mr. Dillon for their attendance and their submissions. I thank Mr. Conroy, who gave us a practical experience from a midland county. I thank Mr. Twomey very much. We understand the weather warning left him at home, and we hope the weather will not be too bad for the remainder of the day. I have a special word of appreciation for Mr. Keeley. I think it is the first time we have had a member of Dublin Fire Brigade before the committee. On behalf of the committee, I acknowledge the work he does as chief fire officer, as well as the work of his team in the Dublin Fire Brigade. We very much appreciate his work and thank him for taking the time out of his busy schedule to be with us this afternoon.

With that, I will bring matters to a conclusion and no doubt we will have further opportunity to monitor and evaluate the progress, not only in respect of budgets but also their ambitious document for 2030. There is now private business for members to address.

The joint committee went into private session at 5.09 p.m. and adjourned at 5.22 p.m. until 3.15 p.m. on Thursday, 23 March 2023.