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JOINT COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND TRADE debate -
Wednesday, 12 Oct 2011

Role and Functions: Discussion with European External Action Service

Apologies have been received from Senator David Norris, who is engaged in other business. Apologies have also been received from Deputy Ó Fearghaíl. I remind members and those in the Visitors' Gallery to ensure that their mobile phones are switched off completely for the duration of the meeting as they cause interference, even on silent mode, with recording equipment in the committee rooms. No. 1 is minutes of the meeting of 5 October 2011, which have been circulated to members. Are there any matters arising from those minutes? Are they agreed? Agreed.

No. 2 is a discussion on the European External Action Service. It is a great pleasure to welcome Mr. David O'Sullivan, chief operating officer with the European External Action Service. We are delighted to have him before the committee. I take this opportunity to congratulate him on his appointment as chief operating officer. It is great to see an Irish citizen in such a pivotal role. We are very proud to have him in that position. Mr. O'Sullivan is accompanied today by Ms Ruth Deasy, head of press at the European Commission Representation in Ireland, and she is very welcome.

Mr. O'Sullivan was previously a director general for trade and was secretary general of the European Commission from 2000 to November 2005. He was head of the cabinet commission of President Romano Prodi and director general for education and training. He has a background in economics, graduating from Trinity College, Dublin, and has completed postgraduate studies at the College of Europe in Bruges. He also holds an honorary doctorate from the Dublin Institute of Technology and is a member of the consultative board of the Institute for International Integration Studies at Trinity College, Dublin.

I invite him to make his presentation on the work on the European External Action Service as members of the joint committee are keen to hear about the success of the Office of the High Representative for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, a role currently held by Catherine Ashton. It is supported by the European External Action Service. Members will hear how it ensures consistency of the EU's external action.

The witness might also mention how the new European External Action Service delegations abroad are functioning and how Irish embassies, for example, and EU delegations co-operate in the field.

Mr. David O’Sullivan

It is a great pleasure and privilege to be here. It is extremely important that European civil servants not only report and are accountable to the Council, the member states and the European Parliament but we also try to reach out to national parliaments, which are given a particular role in the Lisbon treaty. Time is limited for everybody but we try our best to have good contacts with national parliaments and I very much appreciate the opportunity to be before the committee today. I do not want to speak for too long because I would like us to have the opportunity for questions and dialogue. I thought I should speak for ten or 15 minutes, if that is acceptable. I will cover three broad areas: first, the setting up of the service; second, some of the policy challenges and one or two of the modest successes we have been able to have; and third, the point raised by the chairman namely the relationship with national foreign ministries and national embassies in third countries.

On the setting up of the service, I was given this slightly odd title for a public servant, chief operating officer. I was at the Institute of Public Administration today and I met somebody from the National Audit Office of the UK, who also had the title chief operating officer. I felt less lonely. My experience is that whatever my responsibilities, it mostly appears to me that I am responsible for what does not operate, rather than what does. The setting up of the new service is challenging. We are not starting from scratch. Sometimes I think people think we are creating something completely new, ex novo. In fact, what we are doing is bringing together the different elements of the bureaucracy in Brussels which were dealing with external relations within a single organisation and linking that with the delegations in third countries which were previously Commission delegations. We are not creating a massive new operation. I hope we are producing efficiencies of scale, greater consistency and pulling together strands that were previously operating relatively autonomously. That is the objective, but as members will know or anybody who has had experience of bringing together bureaucracies, administrations or even companies that merge, it is not easy to create a common identity. I am a surprise myself.

I was 32 years in the European Commission. I am a fan of the Commission, but when you step outside and realise how the Commission had its culture, the Council secretariat from whom we take about 400 to 500 people had its administrative culture and then, we are putting into the mix, people from member states's foreign services and they each come with their distinct administrative culture. People's ideas of what constitutes best administrative practice, of what constitutes a good way of organising things can be quite different. One of the first things we have had to try to do is to build some common sense of identity. We are not helped in this by the fact that for the moment we are still spread across eight buildings in Brussels. Most people in the new service are still sitting at the same desk in the same building, doing the work they did before the service was created. We have not been able to pull everybody together into a single building which we hope we will do at the end of the year. That is another challenge, to move all these people into a single building.

It was a challenge to pull these elements together. We have succeeded in doing that and getting the operation up and running. The other challenge was that we had to do this while continuing with the work; that did not go away. When we came into the office on 1 January, we were suddenly the European External Action Service but the work was still there from the 31 December. It was the same work but we had to do it in a slightly different way. Apart from the challenge of administrative culture, we have had problems of informatic systems because we have people working out of the Council informatic system and the Commission informatic system and we are trying to connect these two together - and they are designed not to connect. These are all the slightly tedious and boring bureaucratic problems of setting up a new service, most of which we have overcome. It has absorbed a certain amount of energy and time to put a structure together and to be clear about who is doing what and to have an organisational chart that makes sense. We have achieved that and the next phases will be to move the organisation into a new building and to continue the process of creating a common sense of identity for the people in this service, coming from different administrative constituent parts.

The other challenge is that we are responsible for managing our own staff and our budget. Previously, this was managed centrally in the Commission for those of us in the Commission and centrally in the Council secretariat. Now we have had to set up our own administration to manage our budget, we have had to make a proposal for our own budget for next year. I have already been to the European Parliament several times. I was at the Institute for Public Administration and Deputy John McGuinness was there as chairman of the Committee of Public Accounts and we discussed some of the issues that arise about the accountability of civil servants in front of politicians for budgetary matters. We are now responsible for the administrative budget of the new service and we have had to manage our own staff. I have already touched on some of the difficulties of that. We are slowly working our way through these issues and establishing a working organisation. The move to a new building will be a very important milestone in that process.

I will now deal with policy. Members will be aware, as Harold Macmillan said, "Event...". We started out with a certain sense of priorities, but after a few days in the office, the Arab spring started, which was a game changer in terms of our neighbourhood policy. Ms Catherine Ashton had identified three main priorities, the neighbourhood, strategic partners and security and crisis management or conflict prevention and crisis management. Clearly the neighbourhood policy was given a really new impetus with the events of the Arab spring and all that has happened since. We have responded reasonably well. I know there are some who are criticise the fact that we did not see it coming. We did not, but we are in reasonably good company. Quite a few others did not see it coming, but we are starting to reflect on whether there are better ways of trying to spot events before they happen. Some administrations have been trying to do that and spending a great deal of money to do it, without having found the magic formula. One lesson we learn is that we must try to have a more forward looking agenda to see if we can spot other events that may come upon us, for which we could be slightly better prepared.

We have worked hard on showing responsiveness to the events - and Ms Ashton attaches a great deal of importance to this - without any sense that we are telling these countries what they have to do. In her trips there she is very clear that these countries want space, while they are having a revolution and changing, and they want to decide how to take this forward and how to organise their constitution and their path to democracy and human rights. They do not want us to lecture them and to give them a ready-made solution which they can copy. This has meant that we have not been massively present in doing things. We have made offers of what we can contribute but we are waiting to see how and when these offers will be taken up. If I take the example of Tunisia, where it all started, we created a task force and the first meeting took place at the end of September. It was a strong moment of bringing together European and international bodies that can help in the process of change and identified a sort of agenda of concrete actions, talking about the recovery of frozen assets or boosting foreign direct investment and job creation. Clearly one of the major priorities for all of these countries is economic progress and growth because one of the driving forces of this change in many ways was the particularly high youth unemployment. We are watching very carefully what is happening in those areas where things are going less well, whether in Syria or other parts of the region. Libya was a very special case with a UN resolution, military intervention and continued military fighting. Europe has been active in taking a firm position about the departure of Colonel Gadaffi as well as being one of the early recognisers of the TNC initially in Benghazi and now in Tripoli. We are part of the contract group on Libya. This is an area in which Ms Ashton has invested very heavily.

That takes me logically to the area of the Middle East peace process which is obviously a very important issue. The Arab spring interacts with the prospects for peace in the Middle East. This is something where Ms Ashton has been extremely active. In the run up to the UN General Assembly and the issue of Palestinian statehood, which ran the risk of provoking perhaps a confrontation and possibly even divergence on the European side as to how this would be managed Ms Ashton was active in the region before the UN General Assembly and then in New York she was active in trying to find a way forward which would avoid this becoming an issue of confrontation which would damage the prospects for peace talks. She is very active in the Quartet. Both sides are now willing, in principle, to re-engage on peace talks. One of our top priorities is to ensure that happens. It is very clear and widely acknowledged that Europe is playing a much more active role in this area than it did before now. In the past, it was clear that we paid but we did not necessarily play. We are still paying but we are also now playing. I know that Ms Ashton attaches huge importance to this. Equally, as high representative, Ms Ashton is the chief European representative trying to find a way forward on the nuclear issues in Iran. It is still a difficult issue. It needs to be taken very seriously.

I mention three other policy areas, the first of which is the eastern neighbourhood. We have been very preoccupied with the south Mediterranean and north Africa. Partnership in Europe needs to look to the south and to the east. The eastern neighbourhood is in the news a little more these days, unfortunately, as a result of the sentence given to Ms Tymoshenko in Ukraine. We are well aware of the issues in Belarus. Other countries in that region are struggling in various ways. There is a great deal of tension in the region. Several frozen conflicts in the region have the potential to flare up at any moment.

The eastern partnership summit in Warsaw last week was reasonably successful. It showed the extent to which Europe can play a helpful role and some of the difficulties that exist. We wanted to issue a strong statement criticising the Government of Belarus, but the other partners were not prepared to agree to that. They agreed that they do not particularly like what is happening in Belarus, but they did not want to associate themselves with a critical declaration, perhaps because of a sense of regional solidarity. We may feel that every state in the EU has a clear view about how judgments should be passed on some of these regimes, but it is more complex when one is actually in the region. The Balkans continues to be an area of great importance. The question of Kosovo and Serbia is full of tension at the moment. We are working hard to try to diminish that tension and find a peaceful way forward.

On strategic partners and crisis management, broadly speaking, we define our strategic partners as those countries that have the capacity to change things in the world through what they do. By virtue of their size, influence or strategic positioning, countries like China, Brazil, Russia and South Africa have the capacity to significantly influence the environment in which Europe operates globally. We are working closely with each of these countries. We have intensified our contacts with them in recent years.

In particular, we are trying to move away from what is largely an economic and trade focus. Many of these countries see Europe as a big market or as a big economic power, but they pay less attention to our views on world events, global issues, human rights and security issues. Ms Ashton's new role as high representative and vice-president makes it possible for us to make a connection between what we are doing in the trade, development and humanitarian fields and Europe's foreign policy and security concerns about the direction the world will take in the 21st century.

We know we face challenges in the connected areas of conflict prevention and crisis management. We have civil and military missions in various places around the world. Ireland can take great pride in what an Irish military commander did in Chad a few years ago. We are involved in a naval counter-piracy operation off the coast of Somalia. We have people on the ground in Kosovo as part of the EULEX mission. We are also developing the capacity to be able to provide support in crisis management, conflict prevention and post-crisis reconstruction. We are very active in helping to try to get Haiti, for example, back on its feet.

I would like to make a few remarks on the question of the service's relations with the national delegations of member states, which was raised by the Chairman. One of the great success stories from a bureaucratic point of view was the manner in which Commission delegations in third countries transformed themselves into EU delegations overnight. The Commission had a very extensive network of delegations. The Presidency had the role of co-ordinating and federating the member states in a given capital. Under the Lisbon treaty, the Commission delegation became the EU delegation, and took on that Presidency role, with immediate effect from the entry into force of the treaty. I will not attempt to hide the fact that a number of us were nervous about how this change of role might work from day one. Our own Commission heads of delegation had not done this before. Member states suddenly found they were not being chaired by a fellow member state holding the Presidency but by someone formerly of the Commission but now of the European External Action Service. One can imagine that there could have been some personal tension or difficulty, but it went remarkably well.

I pay full tribute to all our member states for their extreme co-operation, solidarity and patience during that process. It was an amazing testament that they felt the process of pulling EU embassies together in a more visible way would enhance their standing in the country in question, rather than diminishing the role of national embassies. This has worked extremely well. We have a large network. We are present in approximately 135 countries. We constitute one of the largest diplomatic networks in the world, after China, the United States and the largest of our member states. It is interesting that many member states have a presence in a much smaller number of countries. We are working intensively on the important relationship between the EU delegation and the member states.

I will attend a meeting of secretaries general of foreign affairs ministries in Copenhagen at the end of the week. The Secretary General of the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, Mr. David Cooney, will be there on behalf of Ireland. The question of how the synergy between these two operations can be intensified is on the agenda. We need to ensure that if Ireland, for example, is not present in a country, it can get delegation rights or copies of the reports about political and economic events and thereby benefit from that. We will consider how buildings and facilities like telecommunications and security can be shared. This is a whole agenda. Obviously, it will not happen between one day and the next. Technical complexities are associated with putting it in place. There is huge scope for doing so.

The media in a member state that is a not too distant neighbour of this country has often tried to push me into saying our efforts in this regard mean we want to abolish national foreign services. We do not. That is absolutely not the point. We are adding value as a European service. It is true that as we are forced to cut budgets, reduce staff and trim expenditure, we can take a serious look at the synergy between the EU level and the national level in helping member states to decide whether they really need to be present with a full embassy and a full staff. They may decide to be present in a lighter way in some countries, benefitting from the facilities of the EU delegation. They may decide they do not want to be present in other countries, in the knowledge that they have a footprint there through the EU delegation, which can channel information to them and report back to them in a way that makes the desk officer in Dublin, for example, feel that some information about what is happening on the ground is coming from diplomatic sources.

It will take between five and 15 years to achieve the objectives of this project, which offers huge possibilities including synergies, better division of labour and - hopefully - better value for money for the public service at national and European levels.

I am conscious that I have already spoken for slightly longer than I intended. I will conclude by saying I think the External Action Service will grow and develop. We can be judged after nine months or a year. This is a project of between five and ten years in which we have embarked on a new capacity for Europe to assert itself globally, project our values and work in close synergy with national foreign ministries in pursuing our foreign policy objectives.

I thank Mr. O'Sullivan for providing an insight into the workings of the European External Action Service. I was pleased to note his comments on communications and relations between Irish diplomatic staff and the service. I will ask Deputy Byrne to speak first as he must be in the Chamber shortly and is anxious to contribute.

I appreciate the Chairman facilitating my contribution before colleagues who would otherwise have priority. I was fascinated by Mr. O'Sullivan's contribution. Having tried to read up on the role of the European External Action Service, I am still slightly confused as I do not fully understand European Union structures. If I was to try to interpret the role performed by the service, I would say it appears to be a type of European civil service which tries to guide Baroness Ashton to behave in a politically correct fashion throughout the world. Mr. O'Sullivan is, therefore, a powerful individual. I congratulate him, as a fellow Irishman, on securing the position of chief operating officer of the service. I also welcome the decision of the Dublin Institute of Technology to confer on him an honorary doctorate, although I am not sure of the reason Trinity College did not do so.

Mr. O'Sullivan referred to several countries in which I am interested. He described his job as "projecting" European values. As an Irish politician, I am slightly confused by the UN mandate given to NATO to protect innocent civilians in Libya. Does Mr. O'Sullivan believe NATO has strictly abided by the terms of its mandate in the context of what would be regarded by some as its enthusiastic involvement in regime change in Libya?

I was an OSCE observer in Ukraine during a democratic election which was deemed in the subsequent OSCE report to have been fair, and the country is dear to my heart. I note from newspaper reports that the leader of the Ukrainian opposition, Ms Yulia Tymoshenko, has been sentenced to seven years in prison and ordered to pay several million euros in penalties. I understand Ms Tymoshenko was charged with corruption, although The Irish Times did not refer to corruption charges and instead referred to an accusation of showing excessive zeal in striking a deal with Russia. Ukraine is divided along east-west lines. When Mr. O’Sullivan analyses the court case in which Ms Tymoschenko was found guilty, is he satisfied that the European Union is taking an objective position on developments in the country? It is noteworthy that there has been a considerable outcry in Ireland about accountability with people asking why the bankers, civil servants and politicians who ruined the economy are not in jail. We are awaiting the publication of a report on a former Taoiseach, Mr. Bertie Ahern, which I am sure will make fascinating reading.

Will Mr. O'Sullivan explain the problems being created by the United Kingdom in respect of the OSCE and United Nations? I understand it is not happy about the press office issuing press statements on behalf of the group. What is the British position as compared to the Irish position?

I am slightly confused about the election monitoring role of the European Union. Having participated in six or seven OSCE election monitoring projects, I am familiar with the role of that organisation and have great respect for its professionalism. What is the rationale for having the EU perform an election monitoring role given that another highly professional body performs the same function? I apologise for being so long-winded.

I will take some more questions before asking Mr. O'Sullivan to respond. I ask members to keep their contributions short as a significant number of members wish to speak.

How does the European External Action Service deal with the challenge of Ireland's neutrality? How does it weigh up the interests of NATO members and their wish to undertake military engagements, in some cases unilaterally and without the support of the United Nations, as was the case when NATO invaded Iraq? How does the service protect the neutrality of certain countries when interventions are made? Certain EU member states engaged in a military enterprise in Iraq which was not ratified by the United Nations. Which countries are the dominant forces in such a scenario?

Has the European Union done a good job on the Horn of Africa? A recent drought, which is not a rare occurrence in Africa, particularly in the north of the continent, has resulted in a famine. The foremost reason for the famine in Somalia is political instability. Have the European Union and United States done everything in their power to resolve the problems in Somalia? Does Mr. O'Sullivan consider that any of the actions taken by the EU and US, including co-operation with neighbouring countries, were provocative? Tens of thousands of people have lost their lives due to political instability and political failure as opposed to drought. Does the external action service consider that all European Union member states have stepped up to the plate in terms of per capita contributions to the crisis fund for the Horn of Africa? The international community set a target of €1.8 billion for the fund which has since been increased to more than €2 billion. I understand that we can hold our heads up high because Ireland, like Britain, stepped up to the plate. Will Mr. O’Sullivan provide an analysis of how European states contributed towards the fund?

According to the note circulated to us, the external action service is disappointed that a UN Security Council resolution on Syria was not passed. Numerous UN Security Council resolutions have been passed on ongoing settlement activity in the occupied territories in Palestine. Has the European Union done everything in its power to enforce the resolutions in question? One day after a resolution on Libya was passed, NATO moved into the country to enforce the resolution and it continues to operate in the country. The Russian Parliament and Foreign Minister believe NATO countries have gone too far and have become a belligerent party to the war in Libya. Is this an example of inconsistency, particularly when one considers the approach taken to Bahrain? I read this morning of a shameful experience of a doctor who trained in the Royal College of Surgeons. He has endured criminal, gut-wrenching brutality for months and was recently jailed. Where are the UN resolutions on Bahrain? Why have there not been European interventions in Bahrain where doctors who saved lives are being imprisoned? Has Europe shown consistency in this regard? We have not forced a UN resolution on the issue of ongoing settlements. Hundreds of homes in Palestine are being torn down as we speak. Settlements continue, provocation continues and failure to enforce UN resolutions continues without any intervention. All we hear is that the Palestinian Authority must engage in negotiations. Where is the consistency? If we are to be serious about the European external action service and speaking as one voice, we need consistency in respect of these matters.

My final point is on the Balkans. Mr. O'Sullivan referred to progress being made in regard to Serbia and the stability agreements. He will also be aware of criticism of the High Commissioner, Paddy Ashdown, who has played an important role in that region. He is very angry at the interventions by Serbia in regard to Bosnia, for example, the endorsement by the Serbian Government of a senior figure, a Bosnian Serb, who denies the occurrence in Srebrenica was genocide. That issue continues to cause instability in Bosnia. There are ongoing issues in regard to the northern part of Kosovo. Recently a gay pride parade was banned. The EU cannot solve every problem in the world. If we had a magic wand we would solve every problem, but the question is whether there is consistency in how international law - the UN resolutions - is applied. What is our plan for showing consistency and demonstrating fair play?

Europe has the potential to be a beacon of hope and a true consistent defender of human rights across the world. I fervently believe we have that potential. The European external action service has the potential to be an immense force for good and a counterbalance to all those difficult regions around us, but there is a need for consistency in how we apply ourselves.

I will try to be brief, as usual.

I have three or four more speakers.

I thank Mr. O'Sullivan for appearing before the committee. I congratulate him on his appointment, and I also congratulate Ms Ruth Deasy. Both of them have influential and important roles as we proceed into the future. I avoid that awful expression "going forward".

As Deputy Mac Lochlainn has said, the European external action service has great potential. It is in its infancy and has to be built up, to evolve and develop. Its development will hinge in particular on the degree to which each European constituent body is able to communicate through the European external action service. We have experienced situations where the EU is represented by one body on one day, one country on another day, and a different country on economic and political issues and so on. That does not work. That has undermined the credibility of the EU. The one thing that impresses everyone is confidence, and that is instilled in people by virtue of what they see. When they see a solid co-ordinated performance, togetherness and inclusiveness speaking as near as possible with one voice, the response will be hugely beneficial, not only to the EU but to all the countries within the EU.

This issue cannot be overstated. It is very important in terms of the Europe into which we are proceeding. For the past 50 years the EU worked very well, right up to the past five years. It had a mission and it proceeded on course and remained steadfastly on course regardless of the distractions. Unfortunately, things have changed and the kind of indecision and the vulnerability that prevails throughout Europe is based on a lack of international confidence in the ability of the EU to speak as a unit. I am sure Mr. O'Sullivan knows this from his involvement for many years throughout Europe. How does it happen? Does it mean that Darwin's theorywill come to the fore and that only the powerful will be heard? That is not true. The EU should be able to integrate and speak with one voice through the appropriate person. I emphasise the words "appropriate person" because otherwise the appropriate person's position and office will be undermined.

I congratulate Catherine Ashton on the work she is doing. There is no doubt she is on the right track but there is a huge job to be done. If the European external action service progresses properly, it will not favour the pursuit of individual country's objectives. We have been through all that in this country the first and second referendums on the Lisbon treaty. If each country exerts the maximum influence, what country's influence prevails at the end of the day? We now see that.

How the European external action service proceeds will be hugely important for the Europe of the future during the next 50 years. The action taken or the actions not taken now will have a lasting impact on the Europe that emerges.

There was a reference to looking at bureaucracy from the outside as opposed to from the inside. We all have experience of that. We call it bureaucracy while everyone else calls it administration. I have studied carefully the degree to which bureaucracy or administration has become overwhelming. Every department in every European country requires voluminous pages, downloads and documents to resolve or address an issue that used to be resolved in a page or two. There is a story behind that. The more people there are, the more questions that are raised, the more boxes there are to be ticked, the more people who have to be employed, and the more man and woman hours that are involved in getting a response to something that should require a simple and quick answer. I do not think people have studied the incidence of red tape but it is getting worse. We even have it in the committees. The amount of downloading we do in the course of a day when we get 600 or 700 e-mails, in the middle of which there are five to ten important items that must be dealt with as a matter of urgency, is unbelievable. Physically it cannot be done.

Yulia Tymoshenko was referred to by a number of speakers. It is time the EU established a fair position in respect of all such matters. There is no use commenting on something unless we know something about it. If a person is innocent, we have to press the issue further. If a person prevaricates or is guilty, that is a different issue.

In regard to the Libyan issue and the Arab spring, I was a loss to figure out which side this country could be on because I remember a time when we supported the establishment. While I do know what side we should be on, none the less I am confused, as I am sure is the Chairman and the public. The kernel of the issue is that we need to evaluate in so far as we can the issues presented to us. Rather than comment on and wade in with both arms swinging, as it were, we need clear knowledge of where we are going and which side we are on.

I wish to turn to the western Balkans and the Middle East which we have discussed many times. The strength and growth of the European external action service will depend largely on how it can interact with all the constituent bodies involved and how it can evaluate the situation well in advance and in a way that will stand up to the test of time. We do not wish to see a situation where we wade in behind the Americans in cases such as Iraq, where super intelligence was available from someone who got it from someone else and which was obviously faulty. That was hugely embarrassing to many people. That is not to say that the administration there was full of saints and scholars, because it was not. Atrocities took place regularly that people seem to want to forget now.

Regime change is a very dangerous thing in which to become involved at any time. It means that outside forces come to determine what should prevail within the country. On humanitarian grounds, we can and should intervene and we should provide whatever moral force is required. To decide to intervene arbitrarily in the internal affairs of another country is something about which we in Ireland should be very careful.

I welcome Mr. O'Sullivan and Ms Deasy and thank them for their excellent presentation. They spoke at the outset about the recruitment of staff, applications within the Department and the internal sourcing of staff. There has been a good history of quality people in the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade who have served us well, especially in the EU and other international bodies. Is there any movement towards recruiting people from the private sector as well? We would benefit in our public governance by having people from the private sector with the appropriate expertise, but positions are often shut off from them.

Can the delegates comment on the fundamentalism which seems to be rising in Egypt following the Arab spring? Perhaps it is coming from the Muslim Brotherhood and other organisations. There has also been a persecution of Christians across the Middle East. Quite a number of Christians were murdered in Egypt in recent days. What is the EU doing about this?

I was at an OSCE conference over the weekend, and the Israeli ambassador made an intervention which got no reaction. He felt that as the only democracy in the region, Israel could be a positive influence in co-operating with other Arab states. This is very unlikely to happen, but it struck me that if something like this could be assisted, then not only could it help those countries, it might also change the mindset within Israel to try to resolve the Palestinian issue. What effective action is being taken to try to prevent the continuation of the settlements in Gaza, which are only exacerbating a bad situation?

The Balkans issue has been well covered. Croatia will join the EU in 2013. There seems to be an anticipation, given the current economic difficulties in the EU, that it will be some time before other Balkan states are brought into that process. To what extent can we deal with the issues in Serbia, Kosovo and Bosnia which have been recently highlighted?

Deputy Eric Byrne asked a question about Yulia Tymoshenko. The manner in which he put the question probably raises the other side of the coin, but I would like the witnesses to deal with the question as he put it. The other side is the political influence which was often to brought to bear on the legal systems within countries that are only embracing democracy. That influence can skew the proper administration of justice, which I am sure is where the witnesses are coming from. Deputy Byrne possibly forgot to mention that our tribunals were exorbitant in their cost and in their length, which totally compromised the objectivity of those bodies, which is sad. I remind Deputy Byrne that he is of a generation, like myself, that will remember the printing machines his own party had. To the best of my knowledge, no one was brought through the courts system as a consequence of that.

I am interested in the future vision the witnesses set out for the rolling out of the embassies of the EU. It strikes me that there needs to be some co-ordination with member states to ensure we are speaking with a reasonably common voice and with some degree of harmony in those countries containing EU embassies. There are 27 member states, and I reckon the larger nations will probably continue to hold on to their embassies, while smaller nations may well rationalise due to cost implications. It is important that those individual states that rationalise have some additional accessibility. The EU embassies might be able to represent the national views of these smaller member states, apart from the views of the Union. Have any papers been written on that?

The witnesses spoke about developing strategic partnerships with countries like China, Russia and America and developing links with Brazil and India. All of those countries have serious human rights issues. Are these part of the discussion when the EU looks at them as strategic partners?

One of the forgotten peoples in Europe has been the Kurds. Is any work being done on their plight? I know they are scattered throughout various countries. Alarm bells go off with me when I read phrases like "single coherent EU message" and "common foreign policy". This does not sit easy with someone who believes in our neutrality and the neutrality of other countries in Europe.

My next concern is in respect of Libya. We have been told that the EU supported the wider international effort and the use of sanctions against the Gaddafi regime. We know that some of those countries were only too happy to get into bed - metaphorically speaking, I presume - with Colonel Gaddafi to secure oil deals. It is very difficult to believe that there is a sincerity attached to some of these countries and their efforts in places like Libya and other countries involved in the Arab spring.

The title, European external action service, sounds rather militaristic. It certainly is not inclusive or humanitarian, and this brings me to the security section tagged on to this debate. There could be questions for Irish Aid, because 50% of our multilateral aid goes to the EU and I would be very concerned about any kind of security or military aspect to what we are talking about.

I am concerned about this attempt to have a single policy on many issues and that as a neutral country, Ireland would be tied into EU actions and tagged with the objectives of Britain, France and Germany, which would then be seen as EU objectives. What mechanisms are available to Ireland to say we do not agree with a particular policy of the service? I would like to hear the witnesses' views on that.

We are conducting trade agreements with countries such as Colombia but we do not insist on having human rights clauses. We raised the issue with the European Commission when we were out there. Ireland was very insistent that the trade agreement in Colombia would have a human rights clause, but in fact it ended up having no trigger mechanism. It is the same with Israel. There is a human rights clause within the trade agreement, yet there is no trigger mechanism. How is it reviewed? Can a country such as Israel, which is breaking trade agreements with the EU, forfeit the benefits of these trade agreements because it is breaking human rights laws and UN resolutions, as we are well aware?

Mr. O'Sullivan spoke about the UN General Assembly vote as a success for the EU. He might have to correct me on this - I know Ireland's position on it - but did all 27 countries say they would support the recognition of the Palestinian state, against the wishes of the Americans and a few others? I am not sure all 27 were in favour of the Palestinian objective of which Ireland was in favour. Even the statement made in one paragraph of the speech, that this was a success for the EU, is not strictly true. It was not a success for Ireland because we wanted to recognise Palestinian statehood. Is that not a contradiction? Did all 27 countries agree on the same position as Ireland?

I join in welcoming the witnesses. I am speaking in the House in about five minutes, so I will ask for a copy of the witnesses' response. I hope they do not take my running off to be rude.

Many of the speakers have identified specific areas of concern in foreign policy. To some extent, we are all looking for a similar answer how various policy decisions are arrived at. I do not share many of the concerns that have been expressed about Europe moving forward with one voice, so to speak. I have great faith in the European political system. One of the great failings of international foreign policy is that the European Union, which that was established for reasons we all know after the Second World War through the European Coal and Steel Community, has been inward looking in terms of foreign policy. The Lisbon treaty, to which all 27 member states have signed up, says - in a particularly vague way - that we will move forward with respect to diplomatic services.

There is a specific area in which I am interested. This committee has been broadly in agreement on more or less all issues to do with Ireland's foreign policy, but we also have the policies of the Department of Foreign Affairs and the Government. It is probable that over the course of our deliberations, members of this committee will not agree on everything. We are also feeding into the European Parliament and the Commission, and then there is the European external action service. In future, what will be the roles for individual parliamentary groups such as our own, national parliaments, the Commission and the European Parliament in arriving at policy decisions? If this is to work, and I hope it will, the structures of decision making need to be clear. I would like to know what role the EEAS would suggest for this committee. Even here in the committee structure, there is also the Joint Committee on European Union Affairs, so there are two committees and a parliament dealing with foreign policy decisions in this very small country.

It is probably unreasonable to suggest that the groups I have mentioned - the committees, national parliaments, the Commission and the European Parliament - will have to agree on all aspects of foreign policy, because in that case we will be dealing with a body that cannot possibly function. What role do the witnesses see specifically for the committees of the Oireachtas? Is it their intention that there would be regular meetings or a type of conduit to feed through views and Government policies?

I welcome the potential to develop diplomatic services, especially in smaller countries. What stamp could each individual government put upon those embassies? Would they be EU offices that are open to groups involved in promoting trade, culture and so on? Would each embassy be established not just as an EU office but as a home for the diplomatic services of the smaller member states - or indeed all member states - within that country?

I have two short questions that have not yet been raised. This morning's news mentioned the alleged involvement of the Iranian Revolutionary Guards in a plot to assassinate the Saudi Arabian ambassador to Washington. Could the witnesses comment on the EU's relations with Iran at the moment and what effect this type of involvement, if the allegation is true, would have on these relations?

My final question is about aid policy. Some of the members referred to what is happening in the Horn of Africa at the moment, but there are other areas of importance. Ireland is a major donor country and plays a large role in the area of development aid. Is development aid a priority within the EEAS? There are many questions for the witnesses to answer, but some of them overlap, so they should be able to answer them all.

Mr. David O’Sullivan

How long should we speak for?

You are fine. Do as much as you can.

I hope the Chairman has left time for Deputy Durkan's right to reply.

Mr. David O’Sullivan

The questions were very interesting, and a wealth of issues were mentioned. On any one of them I could probably take up more of the committee's time than its members would wish.

I will start with Deputy Dara Murphy's question about how this all works. What does it mean when we talk about a common European foreign policy and how does this relate to the position of member states and the process by which they decide on their foreign policy? For me, it is very simple. For all our member states, including the biggest, there is a trade-off between being able to say exactly what one wants and having an influence. All our member states are perfectly free to say whatever they want on any issue. When I worked in the Department of Foreign Affairs, and I agree entirely that this country is very well served by that Department, we used to have big arguments about how Ireland would vote on one UN resolution or another, but I do not think anyone particularly noticed, and it hardly influenced the outcome. The challenge for Europe in the 21st century is relevance.

Will we actually be relevant? The only way we can be relevant is to work together. As President Barroso constantly says, in the 21st century, scale will count. To be frank, China, India, the United States and even Brazil and South Africa - the latter is not the biggest country in the world but is representative of the African continent - want to deal with a Europe that has an influence. This is the trade-off. It is clear that in seeking a common position which we can present as a European position with the aim of influencing major world events and the world around us, we will all have to make some compromises. If every country says "It's a common position as long as it's my position", then we will not have a common position. I do not believe sincerely for one moment that this is all about the big countries getting their way; the contrary is the case. There is considerable diversity of views. One may believe that the Germans, the British and the French always agree but they do not. By the way, when they do agree, one finds that most of the other people find themselves in that commonality, because it represents the centre of gravity of what most people can live with. There will always be an element of countries sacrificing some of their sovereignty, independence or their ability to speak separately so that they can be part of something which can have an influence and an outcome. This remains the challenge for us. I accept fully that this raises issues of the role of national parliaments and Governments and the way in which decisions are taken to Brussels. The challenge is to make this system work but I believe it is remarkably transparent. In fact, all decisions on foreign policy are taken by unanimity. Other arrangements apply for trade decisions and other European Union competency decisions but foreign policy is all about unanimity. Ultimately, every country has the capacity, if it believes strongly, to say "No" to something and then there is no European Union position.

As a practitioner I question whether we will continue to have influence in the 21st century if we insist on complete unanimity on every issue. Nevertheless, that is the fact today and that is how we operate. We are unable to make statements or take positions unless there is agreement among all 27 member states.

Naturally, every member state must decide how strongly it feels about an issue and whether it wishes to block any European Union position and the number of times it is prepared to do so because this involves the use of certain political capital and one may not wish to use all of one's political capital all the time. There are choices to be made and certainly countries swallow sometimes and take the view that it is not the preferred position but it can go along with a common position. For me, this is the difference between sovereignty and relevance. On our own we are all sovereign but we are mostly irrelevant. If we wish to be relevant we must work together and this requires a certain compromise of our capacity to act independently. However, it is something to which we should willingly submit because ultimately we can be a better force for good in the world, as Deputy Mac Lochlainn suggested.

That is my general view. We need maximum information on the question of national parliaments. That is the most important thing. It would be useful if I or some of my colleagues could come to this committee more often. We would be happy to try to do so and we are happy to go to other national parliaments and try to explain our position and to get answers. This dialogue is very important. Naturally, we are all overworked and people do not have time but the Chairman met Catherine Ashton in Warsaw at the group of chairs of foreign affairs committees. We are trying to feed more into national democratic structures to give them access to the European level to enable them to understand what is going on, the way we are doing things, how it is working and to get feedback. Clearly, this is perfectible but it is important.

I will try to deal with the many around-the-world issues raised. Deputy Eric Byrne raised the issue of NATO and Libya. Let us be clear. As such the European Union has no offensive military capacity. We can carry out peacekeeping and provide military aid but we do not engage in military activity; that is for NATO. The difference between Iraq and Libya was simple; there was a UN resolution. There was also a common European position supportive of the UN resolution. Then it was up to the countries which believed in and which were willing to undertake military action in support of the UN resolution to do so. Many European countries did not wish to do so but they would not stand in the way of those countries who sought, through NATO, to take that step.

Naturally, military intervention is always challenging. We are all well aware of how this could go wrong, even with the best of intentions. On the other hand, to paraphrase Jack Lynch, standing idly by is not always easy in the face of gross attacks on civilian populations. This is the tension in international diplomacy. Deputy Durkan raised the question of the point at which one believes one should intervene, even if it is within a sovereign country, because one simply cannot permit something to happen. This is a delicate choice and in the case of Libya it was taken at the United Nations and there was military intervention to stop what was happening. Europe was supportive of the resolution and therefore supportive of the events undertaken.

I am aware that there was controversy surrounding the interpretation of the resolution. My honest opinion is that it played into some of the positions then taken on the Syria resolution because people took the view that a green light was provided once before and some people were not satisfied with the way in which it was done and, therefore, they were unwilling to provide a second green light. I fully accept that. I do not intend to enter that judgment myself but I am aware of the criticisms. However, many of the populations would not have understood had we allowed Colonel Gadaffi to use military force to crush the revolution, the protests or the objection to his regime that took place.

Ireland is a neutral country and Austria and Finland are neutral as well. As people are aware there are different kinds of neutrality. In Austria there is constitutional neutrality. The is also military and political neutrality. Everyone is respectful of Ireland's view. However, since we need unanimity, Ireland must either agree or not. Ireland is also a member of Partnership for Peace in the NATO context. To the great credit of this country we have been sending troops since the time of the Congo conflict, which I remember well because my father was in the military in the 1960s. The Congo was not exactly a peacekeeping operation if we recall the matter in detail. It involved intervening in a civil war. We have participated in many UN operations and we have participated very successfully in many EU operations without any compromise of our neutrality. There is no inconsistency or tension between our position of military neutrality with a willingness and ability to contribute to European positions and occasionally to commit troops to the pursuit of those objectives.

The world has been rather shocked by what it has seen in the Ukraine. It is seen by many people familiar with the facts of the case as a politically motivated legal prosecution. Let us consider the widespread condemnation. There appears to be a remarkable degree of opinion that this is a political prosecution and it does no credit to Ukrainian democracy or the justice system. I fear that it will have consequences for our relationship with the Ukraine. There is talk that the law under which this was based may be under revision and ultimately it may be adjusted so that a resolution to this problem may ultimately be found. However, we cannot fail to comment or criticise when there is such a common view of the misuse of the legal system for political purposes, as Deputy Murphy put it. This is not a simple trial of an individual on corruption charges. It involves a former prime minister and the leader of the current opposition. This view is widely held.

We have a difficulty with the United Kingdom at the moment. This is about the way in which we express our common positions, especially in multilateral organisations. Normally, we speak on behalf of the EU and occasionally we speak on behalf of the EU and member states when shared competence is involved. The UK has become remarkably vigilant about this issue and it has insisted on inserting a reference to "member states" even in situations where in the past we had spoken only of "the EU". In turn, this has provoked a reaction from other member states which take the view that in the past we have spoken exclusively on behalf of the EU and they have no wish to go backwards. The result is that we are blocked because when we try to make a statement, the UK insists on us referring to "the EU and member states" whereas others take a few that since we always use only "the EU" the measure is in effect going backwards. We are trying to find a way forward. The problem has meant that in several situations we have been blocked from making statements on behalf of the EU. We understand there are sensitivities on both sides of the argument and we have been trying to find a compromised way forward. Ultimately, it is something of an arcane debate but I understand that for many people it is important. That is the origin of the problem.

The Organization for Security and Co-Operation in Europe, OSCE, does an excellent job on election monitoring but it does not do so on a worldwide basis. It is perfectly legitimate for Europe or the EU to seek to have a presence during controversial elections to be able to form a view and this is done mainly through the European Parliament with observers from various member states. This process has been very successful and it is important that when we are asked to make comments on the legitimacy of an electoral outcome we can do so on the basis of our presence there. Where there are election observers from different sources, they try to work together to find a common view. One cannot have one organisation having a monopoly on it; we need a balanced group of people to form a view on the legitimacy of an election process.

Regarding Deputy Mac Lochlainn's comments about Somalia, the general point about consistency is that no one is ever perfectly consistent. Deputy Mac Lochlainn contrasted Syria and the settlements in Palestine. The EU has been one of the strongest supporters of the Palestinian cause and of building the institutions of a Palestinian state. We have invested large sums of money in state building in Palestine precisely so that when a Palestinian state is agreed, it will have the capacity and institutions to take the state forward. It is widely recognised that that is what we have been doing. The settlements issue is hugely controversial and unhelpful but we must look at the bigger picture. If we only want to have a discussion about settlements and do not try to engage in peace talks, ultimately, we will not solve the problem. This is always the case. One must always make a judgment and, if one wants to get involved in a particular human rights issue, one risks losing sight of the bigger picture. These are not easy choices and they cannot be made casually but someone must make them. The judgment we have made is that we condemn the settlements and we are supportive of UN resolutions. We constantly remind Israel of this point but we must keep dialogue open with Israel if we are ultimately to get the two sides of this dispute around a table to negotiate a settlement. That is what Cathy Ashton is earnestly working towards and it is our number one priority. It is not fair to say that Europe is inconsistent when it has shown such commitment. We are strong supporters of Israel's right to a safe and secure existence but we also believe firmly in the future and in a state for the Palestinians. We have been one of the major underpinners of their attempts to build a viable state.

The UN resolution on Libya was enforced by a number of EU member states within a day yet we have had four or five UN Security Council resolutions on settlements. I accept the constructive role the EU continues to play in supporting the Palestinian Authority and contributing financially in defending human rights. However, the issue of settlements is a key issue in terms of negotiations. Freezing the number of settlements would allow peace negotiations to continue. I accept the point being made but I wish to highlight that inconsistency. In the context of the Arab spring, there will be a crisis or an opportunity for the US. Considering what is developing in Tunisia, Egypt, Libya and what will develop in Syria, Bahrain and Yemen, sorting out what Mr. O'Sullivan refers to as the tectonic conflict in Israel and Palestine has the potential to build relations in the wider Arab world.

A few more committee members wish to contribute but I want to let Mr. O'Sullivan finish.

Mr. David O’Sullivan

There is a difference between the settlement issues and the UN resolution on Libya, which was about protecting the civil population under immediate attack. The settlement issue is a difficult political issue but no one is suggesting that someone should go in and start dismantling settlements. There is no UN resolution suggesting that, whereas in Libya the issue was the extent to which the international community would take some action to prevent the massacre of civilians, which was imminent. Consistency is fine but these are not the same situations.

Regarding Bahrain, we are well aware of the concern in this country about certain individuals, particularly doctors, who have strong links with this country and who were badly treated. We intervened strongly at the time of the initial trials and when the sentences were confirmed. Last week, it was announced that these initial military tribunal sentences would be annulled and that the cases would go through a civilian trial process. We will see how this works out but it indicates that the strong position taken on behalf of the European Union by Cathy Ashton was not without influence. It was helped by others in the international community and the other member states. When we can speak with a single voice, backed up by an echo from our member states saying the same things, it gives Europe huge influence and we have the capacity to change things in the world.

On the subject of Somalia, the issue in the Horn of Africa demonstrated the point made by Kofi Annan that one cannot have development without security or security without development. We will never be able to benefit the lives of the poorest people in these countries unless we can create a stable and peaceful environment so that development policies can work. Equally, simply having a security solution without accompanying it with development, money and investment will not work either. Unfortunately, this is the situation in Somalia and the absence of a political settlement and the unrest makes it difficult for any kind of development policy to succeed even though we have not been intervening on humanitarian grounds. We are very clear that development aid is part of our external relations but it has its own logic. We are committed to the millennium development goals and to the principles of the Development Assistance Committee in the OECD in terms of the nature of foreign assistance. Europe is the largest donor of development assistance in the world. Somewhere between 55% and 60% of global development assistance comes from Europe, either directly from the EU or from member states. That is a staggering figure that we should never forget. There is no attempt to politicise it or introduce a security dimension. We give this money under a certain conditionality, which is linked to the normal good practice of development assistance but we do so in full co-operation with the UN and other international agencies. The money is used for the benefit of the countries, mainly through the millennium development goals.

Obviously, we do not want complete inconsistency between what we do with development aid and issues of politics and human rights. Part of the challenge of this new service, which exists at both EU and national level, is to reconcile these aspects. At what point does one discontinue aid because one is unhappy with the security situation, recognising that the poorest of the population will suffer? At what point does one continue to give aid to a country of whose regime one disapproves, because one still wants to help the weakest part of the population? These are difficult choices and this business is about slightly difficult, and sometimes slightly messy, choices and there are no simple answers. One must consider this on a case-by-case basis and take decisions. Europe's strong commitments to development assistance is very evident and I hope it will continue in spite of the financial crisis. In all other member states where there are austerity measures, the efforts of most Governments to try to protect their commitment to development assistance, even in this difficult context, shows the strong collective European commitment to development assistance.

I thank Deputy Durkan for his comments on the potential of the service. Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn said the same thing. I always get nervous when someone tells me that the service has great potential, as if we have a great future behind us. In responding to Deputy Dara Murphy, I replied to the point about one voice. It is clear that we are stronger when we speak with one voice. On the other hand, there are divergent and differing views within Ireland, between Ireland and the UK and between Germany, France and Italy. It is about the extent to which we want to have an influence. Having an impact requires us to continue to try to speak with a single voice. Sometimes it will not be possible and I referred to taking three steps forward and two steps back. That is life. On the question of Libya, the EU members of the Security Council split and Germany abstained. It is damaging for our unity but that is life. We pick ourselves up and move on. We try to learn from the experience.

In response to Senator Daly who raised issues on the trade agreements and human rights, a subject with which I am very familiar, it is down to a difficult choice. When one talks to developing countries about wanting strong human rights clauses in trade agreements, they do not see this as us wanting to help them or to contribute to their development; they see it as neocolonial.

In the case of Colombia, we met the Vice President. What the IEA is dealing with there is the regimes that are inflicting the human rights abuses. It is, of course, the case that they do not want to have those clauses in the trade agreements.

Mr. Paul O’Sullivan

I was going to come to Colombia. I recognise and understand that these are subjects that people feel strongly about. When I was in Geneva for the Commission, as trade negotiator, nobody said to me, "Well, Mr. O'Sullivan, I wish the EU would be tougher with us on human rights laws". They are worried we will use these laws as pretexts for protectionism. They are afraid that it is a tap one can turn on and off very easily. We in the EU could say we do not like the human rights situation, they are also exporting things that give us a problem, and we switch it off. That is their side of the story.

From our side, it is very simple, let us be clear. If we want to suspend any international trade agreement, we have the right to do so under the Vienna Convention if we believe that the situation in the country in question has deteriorated and we are not happy to continue with the contractual relationship. We have the right to do that, but will we find the necessary consensus between us to do that? Probably not, because there are very few cases where it is absolutely black and white. There are differing views.

In the case of Colombia, members will be well aware that the trade agreement will go to the European Parliament for ratification. This will be an issue. There is democratic accountability, a democratic decision will be taken by the Europe Union as to whether or not it ratifies this agreement. However, members will be aware of the two sides to the argument. One side of the argument is that we should not ratify it because the Colombian Government has taken actions, particularly in relation to trade unions, which we abhor and which we do not wish in any way to condone by having a trade agreement. On the other side there are those who argree the Government has done some nasty things, but that progress is being made and the people who will lose out if we do not ratify the trade agreement and give Colombia the opportunity to increase its exports will be people working in factories, in the textiles and agriculture sectors who could potentially benefit from the trade agreement.

I am not saying how the debate should play out. I was responsible for negotiating the trade agreement because I was told to go away and negotiate a trade agreement. I negotiated a trade agreement, but that agreement may or may not be ratified by politicians who have to make the judgment I have just described. That decision is not to ratify it to demonstrate dissatisfaction with the human rights situation, or to say one is not happy about the human rights situation but will give it a try because one feels if we go ahead with this trade agreement, poor people might benefit from it. That is a political judgment and I fully respect that should be taken by politicians and not by trade negotiators.

We have produced a trade agreement that works for the Colombians and works for us in trade terms. It will be for the politicians to decide whether the human rights issue becomes something which ultimately means we should not conclude the agreement or whether, on balance, it should go ahead for the other reasons. This is the judgment and these are political choices which have to be made by politicians in the fullness of time, as they will be by the European Parliament in due course.

There may be a misunderstanding on the Senator's part regarding the UN resolution. The Senator may be looking at my IEA speech for which I thank him. The resolution of 3 May was not the resolution. In the bullet point on the last page of my speech, I was talking about the resolution that gave the EU the right to speak in the General Assembly. Paradoxically, the creation of the Lisbon treaty created an unusual situation in the UN because traditionally the voice of the EU was expressed by the Presidency, which is a country which can be a member of the UN. The EU is not a member. When it came into effect that only the EU could express the EU position, we did not have anyone who could speak and we needed to make a change to the rules of procedure of the UN in order that President Van Rompuy could speak in the General Assembly and that Ms Catherine Ashton could speak on behalf of the EU, even though we have observer status only and we cannot as the EU be a member of the UN. That is what I meant by success.

The Senator is absolutely correct that a possible vote on Palestinian statehood would be extremely complex for us to manage. It is one of the reasons we have been trying to work closely with the Palestinians and others to try to avoid this issue becoming a confrontational vote prematurely and trying to ensure that we get, if at all possible, the peace talks restarted in a way that might enable that issue to be set aside until such time as we could see whether the peace talks will succeed. The peace talks ultimately are the real prize, even for the Palestinians. One might gain some benefit from a vote in the UN but ultimately we all know this will be solved only if there is a successful outcome to the peace talks.

I would not like to comment on the press reports this morning. If true, they would create a very difficult situation, but I do not want to be drawn into commenting on something that is still media speculation. If this were to be true, it would complicate our relations with Iran. We are investing heavily in the talks with Iran in trying to find a way forward on the nuclear issue, which is hugely important. Europe is very active and Ms Catherine Ashton speaks on behalf of the EU. It is an example of where we operate with a single voice.

Will Mr. O'Sullivan comment on trade with Iran?

Mr. Paul O’Sullivan

The issue of sanctions and trade barriers is always difficult. We have increasingly tried to move on the basis of smart sanctions rather than trade sanctions because blanket trade sanctions frequently have counterproductive effects for the weakest sections of the population. We are trying to introduce visa bans for members of the Government and to freeze assets. We are also trying to stop companies that are clearly profiting from the situation. We are trying these approaches rather than introducing blanket trade bans which are a very blunt instrument and which frequently produce counterproductive results for many people.

I have found this meeting very useful. I would be happy to come before the committee again. I am at your disposal. Obviously this is a busy committee and has things it wants to do. I am happy to stay in touch. If the committee would like to discuss matters with someone from the service who has a particular specialty, for example in the Arab spring, the Middle East peace process or whatever, we would be happy to put such people at the disposal of the committee. These people could speak with a greater depth of knowledge on some of the specific issues in order to try to ensure we give members the opportunity to be as well informed as possible on what we are doing and why, and the tensions and choices in trying to take forward an European foreign policy.

I thank Mr. O'Sullivan for that gesture, which is important for the committee. Did Senator Daly wish to comment?

Yes, I wish to ask about the trade agreements. The fact that Mr. O'Sullivan was involved in the trade negotiations is fortuitous. We have had many discussions on the Euromed trade agreement between ourselves and the Israelis, which has a human rights clause. As far as we could figure out there is no trigger mechanism. There is no way that Ireland can say:

We believe the Israelis have breached the human rights clause and here is our evidence. We would like an arbitrator to judge that and if the arbitrator judges that Ireland is correct that there has been a breach of the trade agreement we suspend the EU-Israeli trade agreement.

What came up when we met the Vice President, was that he was anxious there would be some element of a human rights clause. The Israelis do not want a human rights clause in any trade agreement with Europe. We can be sure that in the case of most countries with which we deal in Africa, South America or Central America, their governments want a trade agreement but do not want any human rights clause. That is not a case of Ireland wanting to prevent a trade agreement with anybody. The facts of the matter are that governments do not like scrutiny, or somebody telling them they have a human rights issue. Of course, the government has a right of reply when an issue is raised by a member state. The idea that we are inserting human rights clauses in trade agreements that have no mechanism to be reviewed makes a joke of the human rights clauses in those trade agreements.

Does Deputy Durkan want to make a brief intervention?

I will not go over the same territory again. I agree that there is a need to observe best human rights practices, for which we have to strive at every opportunity. In some cases, human rights abuses are rife on both sides. In the Middle East, for example, we can identify a series of major abuses of human rights for a number of years. These abuses are continuing, albeit not to the same extent. Five or six years ago there was massive bloodshed and retaliation was taking place on a daily basis. It was appalling. We should not forget this. It was a fact of life.

Mr. O'Sullivan has referred to what is missing in the Middle East. There is an absence of a structure or framework within which to address all of the issues that are constituent bodies of the problem. There is not much use singling out one issue as offering the solution to the entire problem. That cannot be said of any single issue. Many issues are preventing a resolution of the problem. We had a structure in Northern Ireland where an office was set up under the Anglo-Irish Agreement and that structure remained in place. Grievances could be aired at that forum. The problem is that there is no such place in the case of the Middle East conflict. I have been glad to see a little movement in that respect in the last few weeks. It is hugely important.

When we went to the Middle East last year, we discovered massive abuses of prisoners in detention. That is happening on all sides; there are no exceptions. It is appalling. The treatment being meted out to encourage people to tell all is interesting, to say the least. A film shown on television recently depicted some of this activity. We could go on forever on this hugely important subject which needs to be carefully addressed and it is hugely timely that the External Action Service is engaging with it. Cathy Ashton is doing a great job. She knows the full extent of the problem. It is difficult to bring together the support of the European Union without one country or another opting out on a menu basis. It is not an àla carte agenda.

Reference has been made to the uniqueness of the Irish position on neutrality, but this is utter nonsense. Traditionally, Ireland has not been a neutral country. We adopted a policy of neutrality in 1939 for a very good reason, with which I agree. The adoption of a neutral stance would not necessarily have prevented the things that happened to other neutral countries throughout Europe. It should be known that far from being neutral, Irish people have participated in battles from one end of Europe to the other and from one end of the globe to the other for over 500 years.

I do not think it was Government policy.

In so far as it was a policy, it was initiated freely by Irish people who were mercenaries. Far from being put off by the Senator's remark, I remind him that many things happened in this country that were not Government policy. Traditionally, Ireland has not been neutral. We adopted a policy of neutrality for very good and valid reasons in 1939, but it is not a traditional policy.

The final matter about which I want to talk is limited conditionality in providing aid. Some agree that military support should be made available in order to dispense aid, particularly food, in cases of immediate need. It cannot generally be done when there is a famine. When starvation needs to be alleviated, it should be possible to deploy peacekeeping forces to assist and protect those dispensing aid. This issue needs to be addressed.

I ask Mr. O'Sullivan to make a brief comment before we conclude.

I would like to point out that Austria, Finland and pretty much every other country in Europe did not always have a policy of being neutral.

We are not discussing that issue this afternoon.

I just wanted to make that point.

I will entertain Deputy Mac Lochlainn on the issue of neutrality at any time.

I have called Mr. O'Sullivan.

Mr. David O’Sullivan

I have been told that as I am at risk of missing my flight, I should not say much more. I have listened carefully and taken on board what has been said. I hope we will continue this dialogue.

I hope members will not be the cause of Mr. O'Sullivan missing his flight. I thank him and Ms Deasy for attending and making an interesting and informative presentation. I am glad to hear the External Action Service has started to have an impact on the ground and is being sensitive to the views of individual member states as it tries to formulate a single coherent EU message. I look forward to seeing the service go from strength to strength in the coming years. I hope there will be enhanced, meaningful and substantial Irish participation in its continued work. I have met Cathy Ashton who has huge knowledge of her brief. I was very impressed by her and look forward to her visit to this country in the near future. I again thank Mr. O'Sullivan. I hope he does not miss his flight as a result of some of the lengthy comments made. We will not blame anyone, in particular.

The joint committee went into private session at 4.15 p.m. and adjourned at 4.50 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Thursday, 20 October 2011.
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