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Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade debate -
Wednesday, 27 Feb 2013

The Case of Mr. Sergei Magnitsky: Discussion

I welcome Mr. William Browder, who is present regarding the case of Mr. Sergei Magnitsky. As members know, Mr. Magnitsky died in police custody in Moscow in November, 2009. This was alarming and gave rise to many disturbing questions over the circumstances of his death that have not been properly answered. On the contrary, subsequent investigations by Russian authorities and their decision to prosecute Mr. Magnitsky on tax evasion charges, even after his death, call into question whether fundamental human rights are being respected in this case.

Mr. William Browder has been present from early today raising issues with other Members of Parliament, including the Council of Europe and the OSCE. He is raising awareness of the case and seeking justice for Mr. Magnitsky, who as a lawyer advised Mr. Browder’s company, Hermitage Capital Management.

Before he makes his presentation I advise Mr. Browder that he is protected by absolute privilege in respect of utterances at the committee. However, if he is directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and he continues to so do, he is entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of his remarks. He is directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of the meeting is to be given and he is asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, he should not criticise or make charges against a Member of either House of the Oireachtas, a person outside the Houses, or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I again thank Mr. Browder for coming before the committee and invite him to address us on Mr. Magnitsky’s case.

Mr. William Browder

I thank the committee for the invitation today to tell the story of what happened to Sergei Magnitsky. As the Chairman said, he was my lawyer in Moscow who was murdered in police custody on 16 November 2009. It is my duty to his memory and his family to make sure that justice is done. I have been working to that end for the past three and a half years. In order to inform the committee about the campaign and what I hope can be done in this country, I will outline the background to the story, first about myself and then about Sergei Magnitsky.

In 1996 I set up a business to invest in the Russian stock market in Moscow. My company, Hermitage Capital Management, became the largest investment fund in Russia. We discovered that a number of the companies in which we had bought shares were run in a highly corrupt fashion. We decided that in order to stop the corruption, we would expose it by doing what we called forensic research and ensuring it would be made available to the international media. The public naming and shaming campaigns were quite successful but the more successful we became in exposing corruption, the more angry those who were corrupt became. On 13 November 2005, as I was flying back to Russia, having lived there for ten years and become the largest foreign investor in the country, I was stopped at the border and detained for 15 hours and then deported back to the UK where I had begun my trip. After that it became clear that I was being persecuted by the Russian Government and I quickly got my employees out of the country and liquidated our holdings there in the hope that it would be the end of the story. It turned out that it was not the end but the beginning of the worst nightmare anyone could ever experience under pretty much any circumstances.

About 18 months after I was expelled, 25 police officers from the Moscow interior ministry raided my Moscow office, and 25 more officers raided the office of my American law firm, Firestone Duncan. One of the young lawyers there looked at the search warrant and said it did not give entitlement to take the documents they wanted to take. They pulled the young man into a conference room and beat him viciously. He was hospitalised for three weeks. The documents that were seized during the raid were used three months later to fraudulently re-register our investment holding companies out of our name into the name of a man named Viktor Markelov who had been convicted of murder several years previously and let out of jail early by the interior ministry. At that point we became extremely disturbed by the pattern of events and we hired another lawyer named Sergei Magnitsky. He was 36 years old. He worked for the law firm, Firestone Duncan. He was one of the smartest lawyers we knew in Russia. We sent Sergei out to investigate what was going on, why the raid was carried out and what the objective was.

Sergei investigated and came up with pretty unbelievable conclusions. He concluded that the officials that had taken the documents had used them first of all to try to steal all of our assets, but did not succeed because they had already been liquidated and taken out of the country. As a second step the group of corrupt officials used the documents to steal not our assets but $230 million dollars of taxes that we paid in the previous year. They had gone through a complicated scheme whereby they applied for an illegal tax refund using the documents seized in our offices. They applied on 23 December 2007 and the tax refund was approved and paid out the very next day. It was the largest refund in tax history.

We believed that this must have been a rogue operation. It could have been acceptable and even authorised by the Government to steal a foreign investor’s assets but it is hardly imaginable that they could have been allowed to steal €230 million of taxes that were paid to the state. Sergei testified against the police officers who were involved in the raid in June 2008 and again in October 2008. Shortly after his testimony two subordinates of one of the officers who was named in his testimony came to his house on 24 November 2008 at 8 a.m. and arrested him. He was put in pre-trial detention and they began to torture him to withdraw his testimony. They put him in a cell with 14 inmates and eight beds, and left the lights on twenty four hours a day to sleep deprive him in the hope that after a week of it he would recant his testimony against the police officers. They then presented him with a confession to sign in which they asked him to confess to the theft of the stolen tax money that he had discovered and exposed. Sergei refused. They then put him in a cell with no heat and no window panes in December in Moscow, and he nearly froze to death. They put him in a cell with no toilet, just a hole in the floor, where sewage would bubble up. They did a number of other terrible things and after approximately six months he became sick. He developed severe stomach pains, lost 20 kg and was diagnosed with pancreatitis and gallstones. He needed an operation which was scheduled for 1 August 2009.

One week before the scheduled operation, he was abruptly moved from a prison with medical facilities to a maximum security prison called Butyrka, which is considered to be one of the toughest prisons in Russia, and most significantly for Sergei, there were no medical facilities there. At Butryka, his health completely broke down and he went into a downward spiral of pain and ill health. He and his lawyers made more than 20 desperate requests for medical attention to various branches of the Russian penal system. Every single one of them was either ignored or rejected. We have written copies of some of the rejections to his desperate pleas for medical attention. On the night of 16 November 2009, Sergei fell into a critical condition. Only then did they agree to move him to a prison with medical facilities. When Sergei arrived at the prison with medical facilities, instead of treating him, they put him into an isolation cell and allowed eight riot guards with rubber batons to beat him for one hour and 18 minutes until he died at the age of 37.

One could ask how we know all of this. Up until the last night of his life Sergei wrote it all down. He wrote 450 complaints about his mistreatment and the misuse of the justice system to torture him. Those complaints document who did what, when, how and where. Since he died we have been able to corroborate all of his testimony with documents from the Russian penal system.

They are not very good at covering up their crimes and, for example, we have documents showing the signature of the head of the prison authorising the use of rubber batons on him in the last night of his life. We have the signatures of people in the penal system that denied him medical attention. We have the signatures of the police officers who fabricated evidence, which we can prove to be fabricated, to arrest him. Given all of this evidence and at this point this truly is the most well-documented human rights abuse case to have come out of Russia in the past 35 years, we assumed that given the profile of this case, given the level of evidence and most importantly, given that President Medvedev or now ex-President Medvedev, had called for an investigation one week after he died, the people who committed this crime would be prosecuted. Three and a half years later, not a single Russian official has been prosecuted for the false arrest, torture and murder of Sergei Magnitsky. They all have been exonerated. Some of them have been given big promotions and some have been given state honours. In fact, on the first anniversary of Sergei's death, six people who were involved in this case were given special Interior Ministry honours, which is the highest honour one can get in the Interior Ministry. Most shockingly, the only prosecution that has happened is the prosecution of Sergei Magnitsky himself. On 4 March, they intend to resume the case against Sergei Magnitsky and against me in court. They are prosecuting Sergei Magnitsky in the first-ever posthumous trial in the history of Russia and one of the very few posthumous trials anywhere in the world in the past 1,000 years. To make matters worse, since Sergei is not there to defend himself in this trial, they have summoned his mother and widow to be the representatives of the defendant in this unprecedented legal procedure. Moreover, just today Sergei's brother-in-law has been summoned for interrogation at the Interior Ministry in Moscow.

The conclusion one can draw is there is absolutely no chance of getting any kind of justice for Sergei Magnitsky under the current regime in Russia. From that conclusion, we decided that if we could not get justice for Sergei in Russia, we should try to get justice for him outside Russia. How does one get justice outside Russia? There is no jurisdiction in Ireland, the United Kingdom or anywhere else for the murder in Russia of Sergei Magnitsky. We cannot prosecute them for murder or various other crimes. However, the one thing we do know about this crime is it was not a crime of ideology or religion but was a crime of money. This was a crime of money concerning $230 million. The people who committed this crime and who commit crimes just like it - there are many other crimes just like it in Russia - like to keep their money outside of Russia. They do not want to keep their money in Russia because it is not safe there. Consequently, they keep their money in France by buying villas, or in America and the United Kingdom. There probably is some of their money in Ireland. They like to keep their families out of Russia and like to travel and to vacation abroad. Basically, they like to have the freedom, the security and the rule of law in the West. They like to commit their crimes in Russia and then have all this great stuff in the West. We thought that if we could take that away from them, it may not be justice in the true sense of the word but it is at least a small step towards pricking this bubble of impunity that exists in Russia.

Consequently, I went to the Congress of the United States in April 2010 and suggested this to a bipartisan group of Senators. They liked the idea and as a result, we ended up with Senator Benjamin Cardin, who is a very liberal Democrat, and Senator John McCain, who is a very conservative Republican, teaming up and proposing what has become known as the Magnitsky Act, which would impose visa sanctions and asset freezes on the people who killed Sergei Magnitsky. It went through the process of various committees and in November 2012, the Senate voted on the law with a 93% approval. The House of Representatives also voted on the law and on 14 December, Barack Obama signed the Magnitsky Act into law. It is now a federal statute in the United States. As I stated, this would name names, ban visas and freeze the assets of the people who killed Sergei Magnitsky. In parallel, the European Parliament considered the same law and in November, shortly before President Obama signed the law in America, passed its own version of the Magnitsky Act calling on the European Council to impose EU-wide visa sanctions and asset freezes on the people who killed Magnitsky. I should point out that the law in America and the law in Europe do not simply apply to Magnitsky. While Magnitsky is the name on the law, it also applies to other gross human rights abusers in Russia.

I will turn to what I am doing here and what I hope to achieve in Ireland. It is a great pleasure to be in Ireland because of all the countries to which I have travelled, and I have travelled to about 13 countries, this is one of the countries in which I am speaking the same language in terms of both language and values. This is a place where people understand right and wrong and what should be done. I have got a very warm reaction in all the one-on-one meetings I have had today before coming to testify here. What I hope will happen here in Ireland is something we also have done in a number of other European Union member states, which is that I would like this joint committee to put forth a resolution calling on the Irish Government to impose visa sanctions and asset freezes for the people who killed Sergei Magnitsky and the people who perpetrate other gross human rights abuses in Russia. The joint committee should ask the Government to do the same thing here. In addition, Ireland is punching well above its weight at present by holding the Presidency of the European Union and it could use that opportunity to further what already has happened in the European Parliament. There is an opportunity to have the Government call on the European Council to discuss and to pass the EU-wide Magnitsky sanctions that were proposed at the European Parliament. I learned about the story of Veronica Guerin and the Criminal Assets Bureau here, which essentially has the same objectives as the Magnitsky Act. The final thing I would ask Members of the Oireachtas to do is to amend the Criminal Assets Bureau legislation to include the people who killed Sergei Magnitsky and similar crimes of that nature.

I wish to finish my thoughts there but will share one last observation, which is that when I propose these things, this is not the West beating up on Russia. The people in Russia, albeit not the regime in Russia, are all in favour of this. They have no tool available to them at present to deal with the impunity, the criminality and the kleptocracy of their regime. Civil society, all the opposition and everyone outside the Putin regime is cheering for this. One can see it in anecdotal terms but one can also see it in quantitative terms. A poll was conducted in Russia asking how many people supported the foreign Magnitsky Act-type of legislation and only about 40% of the population had heard of it and approximately 60% had not. However, of that 40%, two thirds of Russians support Magnitsky-style legislation and only one third are opposed to it. I thank members for this opportunity and of course will be glad to answer any questions from any one.

I thank Mr. Browder for his very powerful remarks and contribution in respect of the Magnitsky case and the circumstances surrounding it. It is very disturbing to hear these circumstances. I will now ask members to ask questions but because many members are present today, including Members representing the Council of Europe and the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, OSCE, I ask them to confine themselves to asking questions rather than making lengthy remarks, because Mr. Browder has gone through the background to the case itself.

I welcome Mr. Browder. Deputy John Paul Phelan and I, as well as others, have heard this presentation previously at the OSCE and it had a powerful influence on us, as I believe it has had on the joint committee here. As for the parallel with the case of Veronica Guerin, who had the courage to tackle organised crime, lawyers often are front-line defenders for human rights and, therefore, when they are attacked and murdered it cries out for people of goodwill to take up their cases.

'What is the intention or purpose of the the trial of Mr. Magnitsky? Is it to discredit him? It is extraordinary if that is the case. Mr. Browder referred to his interaction with the US Congress. I understand he has also met with representatives of other Parliaments and has their support. Perhaps he would elaborate on this and also on his interaction with the European Parliament and Council of Europe.

Mr. William Browder

It is hard to imagine what they must be thinking in Russia to prosecute a dead man. This has never been done before and is ghoulish beyond belief. It is hard to get inside the minds of criminals. My theory is that the Russian Government is apoplectically mad about the passage of the Magnitsky Act. It touches it in such a way it is in a state of raw panic in terms of how to deal with it. One of the ways in which that panic is manifesting itself is in this posthumous trial. What it might be trying to do is obtain a conviction against Mr. Magnitsky. As I stated previously, I am a codefendant. The Russian Government is trying to secure a conviction against me and is trying me in absentia. In this regard, it is visiting Parliaments throughout Europe, which is where they are afraid the Magnitsky Act will come into force, saying that it has been proven in court that Mr. Magnitsky and I are criminals. I do not believe what they are doing will have the desired effect. Most people react in the same manner as Members have today. I do not believe those involved are emotionally intelligent enough to understand how people will react to this.

On my interaction with other Parliaments, we have visited 12 Parliaments throughout Europe seeking to have resolutions passed. Approximately 18 months ago the Dutch Parliament unanimously passed a resolution calling on the Dutch Government to impose Magnitsky sanctions. The British Parliament backbench committee passed a cross-party resolution calling for Magnitsky sanctions. Some 59 members of seven of the eight parties in the Swedish Parliament called on their Prime Minister to impose Magnitsky sanctions. The Polish, Italian, Canadian and other Parliaments have also passed resolutions. The OSCE resolution calling on all member states of the OSCE to impose Magnitsky sanctions was supported by approximately 90% of members. The European Parliament also passed a resolution in November. We are not treading new ground here. Ireland is an important place because of its position as President of the European Council. I would not normally push for swift action but to the extent that Ireland is interested in taking some action, it has only a six month window within to do so. I ask that it do so quickly.

How many officials are involved? Mr. Browder mentioned an attempt has been made to freeze assets. How successful has that been? Mr. Browder also mentioned forensic research and said that the only avenue open to him was to publicly name and shame those involved. We are all aware of the show trials in Russia a number of years ago but trial of a dead man seems bizarre.

Mr. Browder mentioned the countries who have passed resolutions and the reaction in Russia in terms of enacting legislation preventing US adoptions, imports of pork and so on. Have other countries responded similarly, including the UK, Holland and so on?

Mr. William Browder

In April 2010, together with the US Helsinki Commission, which is a human rights commission in the US Congress, we came up with an original Magnitsky list, which consisted of 60 people whose names were on documents in the false arrest, torture and death of Mr. Magnitsky or involved in crimes which he had uncovered. We are now in the final stages of concluding the updated list based on information we have gathered over two years. While I cannot be definitive, I believe the list will include more than the original 60 persons. This is not speculation. This is based on evidence in terms of signatures on documents which come within the US sanctions. All of this information will be released in the course of the next few weeks when the Americans have completed their list. The Americans had 120 days from December to 15 April to release a list of who should be on the Magnitsky list.

Does the list include the judge and prosecutor involved or only those involved in the fraud leading up to the death of Mr. Magnitsky?

Mr. William Browder

Under US law, any person involved in the false arrest, torture, death or financial crimes uncovered by Mr. Magnitsky or in the cover up of the legal liability of those involved will be listed. As such, the list includes judges, police officers, prison officers and so on. The Deputy General Prosecutor of Russia, Mr. Grin, is on the original list.

I must ask Mr. Browder not to name individuals.

Mr. William Browder

I apologise and withdraw it. The Deputy Interior Minister and others are also on that list. While the original list includes persons up to Deputy Minister level I expect the new list will include persons at a higher level.

On asset tracing, there are two issues involved. First, assets held in America or in Europe by any person on the list and second, where the money has gone. Through working with a number of investigators, investigative journalists and whistleblowers we have been able to locate €135 million of the €230 million stolen. That money was located in eight jurisdictions, including Cyprus, Moldova, Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia, Switzerland, Finland and Austria. The Swiss have frozen millions of dollars, as have the Austrians and Lithuanians. Our hope is that all this money will be frozen so that the people who perpetrated this crime will not benefit from it.

I should also point out that the €230 million stolen was only the tip of the iceberg. We have discovered that in addition to that amount, the same group in Government and the criminals, using the same scheme and tax office and people, stole at least another €800 million. On retaliation in other countries, the Russian Government has retaliated against the US in the form of banning US adoptions, pork and cutting off law enforcement co-operation, with a specific purpose. The Russians are not overly concerned about the US in that the damage has already been done in the US. They are, however, worried about what happens in Europe, which is where all of their interests are. They wanted to send out the message loud and clear that Russia proposes to retaliate. The best way of dealing with this type of threat is to do this on a concerted basis with every other country. Gazprom has done a lot of bad stuff, in respect of which the European Commission, as opposed to individual countries, is engaged in an investigation. Acting in numbers is safer.

There appears to have been major abuse of human rights in this particular case. To what extent has the international community been alerted and encouraged to bring pressure in respect of this matter on the authorities in Russia?

In respect of the European Union, to what degree has the violation of human rights been used as a means of requiring the authorities in Russia to respond in a meaningful way? Third, it might be opportune for the Chairman and a delegation of the committee to meet the Russian ambassador to bring to his attention the situation as reported to us for the important reason of the trade between Russia and European Union and the need to recognise that this is an ongoing issue that needs to be addressed. Where there is failure to address the situation, in respect of countries that have committed themselves to international human rights standards and those which do not, there is a need to investigate the matter further.

I will bring in Deputy Eric Byrne as well. There are six more members who wish to contribute.

Unfortunately, I must leave to chair the House. I am sorry.

That is fine.

I thank Mr. Browder for coming here. I read up on the case and I am very interested. In a sense, it is historical or coincidental that Mr. Browder happens to be here just after the debate we have had on human rights with Amnesty International and the role of Ireland's Presidency of the Council of the European Union. I congratulate Mr. Browder for acting far beyond the call of duty to a former employee who, tragically, was killed.

Mr. Browder listed the countries which he visited and the decisions of those parliamentarians. This is the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade. Invariably, we deal with the BRIC, Brazil, Russia, India and China, axis as to where-----

May we have a question, if the Deputy does not mind?

I am coming to the question.

The United States of America, which has brought in the law, has had retaliation already by way of the adoptees. Could Mr. Browder explain why, in all of those countries Mr. Browder listed that he visited and where the parliamentarians apparently acted, the governments seem not to have acted?

Mr. Browder was in Russia in the same period of the debate about the oligarchs and Mr. Mikhail Khodorkovsky. I do not want to mix Mr. Browder's case up with his except to state that it seems there is a climate in Russia and Mr. Browder's partner may not be the only victim of President Putin's policy.

Mr. Browder mentioned many countries and parliamentarians. He stated he brought in the legislation in the United States. Has any other country followed suit? Can he tell us whether, in this period, there has been a attack or orchestration against the oligarchs or investors such as Mr. Browder, including the Khodorkovsky case?

Mr. Browder can take those two questions now.

Mr. William Browder

When I showed up at the US State Department in April 2010 and asked it to impose sanctions on the people who killed Mr. Sergei Magnitsky because it had it in its law to do so, they basically threw me out of the office. The US State Department stated that it was resetting its relations with Russia and it had no interest in doing something like that. It was only after enlisting legislative pressure from elected law makers that I was heard.

What one has is realpolitik versus doing right. Law makers are elected by their constituents to do right. Persons who sit in the executive positions must weigh up doing right with all other considerations. What I was able to do was to leverage the way the US system is organised to have doing right ultimately trump realpolitik.

In Europe, I have been to a number of different parliaments. Essentially, I have had the will of the people, as expressed through their members of parliament, call on their governments to do something and so far the governments have not acted. The reason I believe that is the case is because everybody is afraid to act. Nobody wants to upset Russia because it is a highly vindictive and aggressive country. Having said that, among the people in Europe, and the people in Ireland and the members' constituents, there is not a person who would say Parliament has done wrong by banning Russian torturers and murderers from coming into Ireland.

A poll came out today in France because President François Hollande is visiting Russia. It asked French people whether they would support a French version of the Magnitsky Act, and 85% of the French population stated they would support it. This is one of those issues where the only ones who are against it are the Putin regime.

We are in a situation right now that is like the anti-Apartheid movement. There were many who said, "Listen, let us not get involved with that. They are doing what they are doing in South Africa but we just have to live with that. We need to trade with them." but, eventually, people said "This is outrageous. We just cannot allow Apartheid to carry on." That is what we are talking about here.

We are talking about a kleptocracy, which, basically, is stealing all the resources from its country, where 141 million are being stolen from for the benefit of a few; they commit murders and do terrible things, and we have a tool to fight them. It is not going to be easy. Doing right is sometimes not easy. Doing right in concert makes it less painful because it is in their economic interest as well. What really touched me when I went around talking to people here in Ireland is that they are saying, "Of course, we should do something because this is about basic human rights." I do not have that conversation in all countries I go to, but here I did.

In terms of the oligarchs and the Putin regime, President Putin wanted to crush anybody who was not reporting to him when he came into power and he crushed Mr. Mikhail Khodorkovsky as an example of what he would do to anybody else who did not report to him. As a result, everybody either reported to him or got crushed or was sent into exile.

I was not a big fan of the oligarchs in Russia when they were doing their oligarch stuff, but I am now a big sympathiser with Mr. Mikhail Khodorkovsky, who was actually one of the people I was least a fan of back in his business days. In fact, his son was there lobbying for the US Magnitsky Act. Khodorkovsky's son and his other people gave us names of persons to contact here in Ireland with whom they had been in touch. We all are working towards a common goal which is to stop this terrible stuff going on in Russia for many people because Mr. Sergei Magnitsky and his father are merely the tip of an iceberg. This stuff is going on everywhere in Russia.

I call Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan, followed by Senator Clune.

First, I acknowledge Mr. Browder's loyalty and perseverance in this matter of getting justice for his friend. I was appalled by the Russian reaction, which was to punish children who were up for adoption. I think of the trauma and pain for those families who are ready to take those children. That was a further example of an abuse of human rights.

Mine is a simple question. Are Mr. Sergei Magnitsky's family in danger? Mr. Browder mentioned a brother-in-law and I note, from what Mr. Browder was writing, the situation of his mother. I wonder what protection have other members of his family in Russia, if they are there.

I thank Mr. Browder for coming here today. I was impressed with his delivery and the telling of his story. I would be interested to hear whether he himself is ploughing a lonely furrow or whether he has support with him.

On the Act that was signed into law in the United States by President Obama in December last, Mr. Browder stated he identified a number of officials - I think he mentioned 300 - and a list. I am sure that law is being implemented. It is an eye-opener to me. The effect it could have is that there would be persons such as this who would have accumulated such an amount of wealth, investing it abroad and keeping it bank accounts in the United States and elsewhere.

I, too, welcome Mr. Browder. Like everybody here, I am horrified by this case. As parliamentarians, we certainly want to do everything we possibly can to get justice for Mr. Magnitsky.

I have one question. I am really intrigued as to how Mr. Browder succeeded in getting documentation from inside the prison to prove that Mr. Sergei Magnitsky was so badly ill-treated and denied access to medical treatment during his very serious illness. I am really curious about that.

There were three questions.

Mr. William Browder

First, let us talk about the Magnitsky family. If I had my druthers, every close relative would be outside the country. Some are; many are not.

His mother in particular is fighting really hard for justice and putting herself at great personal risk for her only son. She lost everything in her own mind and she has no interest in leaving but has every interest in fighting. What can we do to protect her? We can ensure everybody knows everything she is doing so the eyes of the world are on her. We have done that. I was truly shocked to hear that Mr. Magnitsky's brother-in-law was summoned for questioning today but that is what they do, and they want to terrify everybody. I can only hope that they are feeling restrained by the eyes of world being on them.

I was asked whether I am doing this alone and the answer is "No". I am the leader of this campaign but when one works on a righteous cause, many people will join from everywhere. People say I must have spent much money on this; I have spent much money on plane tickets but I have not spent much on everything else. People want to be part of something that is right and something which can be effective in having greater significance. This is not just touching Sergei's case but all the cases in Russia, and the entire Russian opposition has joined me in this campaign. If any member of the Russian opposition comes here, this is a guaranteed topic about which he or she will talk. There is a real movement around the world of people supporting us in different ways in the political and legal processes. They are helping us tell the story, and it is heartwarming to see that there are many good people out there.

Senator Clune's second question was about the US.

Yes. What the implications so far of the Magnitsky Act? It has only been in place for two months.

Mr. William Browder

The Act has been in place since 14 December and the US Administration, according to the law, has 120 days to implement it. It is an open-ended story, as this would also address all gross human rights abusers. We do not know if the US State Department will put one name or 300 names on the list or how it will defend the names on the list. The Russians are really terrified of this. Not only have they retaliated against the Americans, but they have also passed a number of laws in Russia because of their terror.

For example, they passed a law earlier this week banning officials from owning foreign property because they are so afraid of having officials' assets frozen. The ban on adoption is tremendously heart-breaking, and it led to anger among many Russians, even within the elite. The Russians are children-loving people if there ever were children-loving people. Taking children as hostages in order to protect an ability to travel was not acceptable to anybody inside Russia. Some 50,000 people came out on the street after the adoption ban, and it was called the "law of scoundrels". Officials have had to allocate significant sums of money to try to justify that adoption ban. There have been all sorts of unintended consequences and nobody had an idea that they would come about.

The question was asked about how we got the documents from prison. Russia is a place with no rule of law but there is incredible adherence to procedure that would not be seen in any other place. If there is a rule about having a detention hearing every three months, it will happen, and if there is a rule that one can file a complaint, that will also happen. Mr. Magnitsky writes handwritten complaints - sometimes more than once a day - and every month or so he is allowed to meet his lawyer. He hands the lawyer a stack of complaints to be filed and they would be ignored. Nevertheless, the lawyer would make a copy when filing the complaints, with the result being our incredible record of what happened to him. It is like Solzhenitsyn's Gulag Archipelago for a modern time.

The psychology of allowing these documents to leave is interesting. Russia has essentially been operating in what is essentially a closed system, and there was never a thought that any of this would have any impact. It controls the entire criminal justice system so it does not matter what the documents state. Russia had no idea that these documents could be used in an international forum to create some type of consequence outside Russia, which is terrifying for those in power. These people believed they could ask people to do really terrible things and guarantee immunity but although we may not be punishing them the way they should be, we are nonetheless taking away absolute immunity. President Putin cannot promise his people that nothing will happen if they commit a terrible human rights abuse. That is the beauty of this policy and why it is so important. I hope Ireland will join me in doing what we have done elsewhere in the world.

The next members to contribute will be Deputies Joe O'Reilly, Ann Phelan and John Paul Phelan.

I thank the Chairman for welcoming those of us who are not regular committee members. We have come out of interest from a Council of Europe perspective in the case of me and Deputy John Paul Phelan. Deputy Ann Phelan's interests come from the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe. I join in welcoming Mr. Browder, and I share the admiration of others for his loyalty to a colleague and his almost single-handed pursuit of the matter.

What precisely does Mr. Browder want from the committee? Does he want a motion to go from the committee to the Government? Does he want us to suggest to the Government that it freezes the assets of people on the Magnitsky list and that it withdraw visas?

Mr. William Browder

I will be very clear because it is very important.

I have a supplementary question, which I will ask now. As the Magnitsky list grows, the question arises of whether there is risk of a Star Chamber dimension being added. As the list grows, how sure could we be that the list is being expanded appropriately? I am very interested in what Mr. Browder wants us to do and the risks arising as the list grows.

Mr. William Browder

These are important questions. In a perfect world, I would like the committee to draft a motion calling on the Irish Government to implement Magnitsky sanctions in Ireland. I will describe those sanctions in a moment. I would also like the motion to call on the Government to use its position as Presidency of the EU to initiate a process at the Council of Ministers for EU-wide implementation of Magnitsky sanctions. The Magnitsky sanctions specifically proposed would be the publication of names, banning of visas and freezing assets of people involved in the false arrest, torture and death of Mr. Magnitsky and the crimes he uncovered, as well as other comparable gross human rights abuses that take place in Russia.

There is currently no list other than what the US Government will ultimately produce. We can suggest names and it will decide what to do. The US Government list does not have to be used and other parties can form their own lists. The list should include people for which there is credible evidence of being involved with these crimes. I am just an advocate and I am not trying to create extra-judicial processes. I want a scenario where there is no judicial process. A visa is not a right but rather it is a privilege. There are far lower thresholds for denying a visa than evidence that somebody has been involved in a terrible crime.

Ireland has its own experience with the Criminal Assets Bureau in deciding the threshold of evidence required to freeze a person's assets. I would leave this to the Government, as it is not for me to say how this could be done in Ireland. I would like Ireland to help in creating a process with which we can prick a bubble of impunity.

I welcome Mr. Browder. This is the third time we have met and I am a great supporter of his case. I was really struck by the commonalities in this case and that of Ms Veronica Guerin.

This is the right thing to do. Everybody has to uphold human rights if we are about democracy at all. This is not only about Sergei Magnitsky; it is also about the others in Russia who will look to this case to have their human rights vindicated in what is supposedly an emerging democracy. Human rights are the cornerstone of all democracies and they can only develop where people can live freely and enjoy all the benefits of an open democracy. There are many human rights abuses in Russia. I am a big supporter of the case. There are many similarities between the CAB legislation and the sanctions to which Mr. Browder referred. However, I will be guided by the Chair as to we proceed with this. I support this case and I appeal to the committee to also support it.

I also commend Mr. Browder on a powerful presentation. I am familiar with the facts through the Council of Europe but I have a number of questions that have not been asked through which I seek clarification. Does the US legislation cover asset freezing or is it only concerned with visas and access to America? If so, will Mr. Browder give a brief explanation? He also mentioned that there has been analysis of part of the $230 million involved in Sergei Magnitsky's case and that he had uncovered fraud in addition to other irregularities. I presume the analysis was conducted by a private individual or company. How did Mr. Browder gather the information? Does the April deadline concern only the list of people who will be affected by the legislation signed by President Obama last December?

Mr. William Browder

The US legislation has three basic components - the publication of the names, the banning of the visas and the freezing of the assets. There is a different threshold of proof for freezing assets than for banning visas. With regard to the deadline, the legislation says there is 120 days from the date of the president's signature, which was on 14 December, for the law to be implemented. In theory - and things never work in practice as well as they work in theory - 13 April is the date on which the US State Department will publish a list. That is a Saturday and, therefore, 15 April is the first business day after that. I was in Washington and I have been in touch with the State Department. They are actively working on not just the Magnitsky case because this includes all other cases. That is important and I want to stress that. Magnitsky is the touchstone that surrounds this issue and the sanctions will apply to all gross human rights abuses in Russia. That is the first date on which there will be a list. The State Department was specific with me and they said this is an ongoing process. There will be, perhaps, on 16 April another human rights abuse that will lead to someone being added to the list. The reason the Russian regime is so terrified is this is open-ended. This is a process, which, hopefully, after all this push back will start working automatically in a law enforcement manner as opposed to a political manner. People will just start getting used to the fact that if they engage in human rights abuse, they will lose their visa.

With regard to the forensic investigation, this comes back to the question whether I am doing this alone. All sorts of people have come forward at all sorts of times with all sorts of different types of things. A journalist from Nezavisimaya Gazeta, one of the main opposition newspapers, gathered a great deal of data in Russia. An NGO, the Organised Crime and Corruption Reporting Project, found information in Moldova. A whistleblower, who had been a member of the criminal group but fell out with the other members, came forward and gave us a bunch of information about assets in Switzerland. We went to the New York courts and got a subpoena, which allowed us to get banking information on dollar transfers through US banks and various other things. We put this all together and that allowed us to come with $135 million of the $230 million. It allowed us to write these criminal complaints, which led to different asset freezing orders and will lead to many more. This is just the beginning of the process.

I thank Mr. Browder There have been suggestions by him and some committee members that the committee draft a resolution. Do members have suggestions on this?

We have had a valuable engagement on a fundamental topic under our remit. I am of a mind based on what I have heard today and previously during our hearings that it would be prudent to follow the template elsewhere. I am inclined to go with the suggestion that we seek to have the Government implement the Magnitsky sanctions in Ireland and utilise the opportunity of the EU Presidency to seek to achieve their implementation on an EU-wide basis. We should do the same as the US regarding the publication of names, the freezing of assets and the withdrawal of assets. I do not know whether we can do this now or whether legislation needs to be prepared. We probably need to do this as soon as possible in the context of utilising the final four months of our Presidency. It would be an important marker regarding where we stand on such fundamental human rights and it would be a courageous move by us. Perhaps we might consider extending the CAB legislation to include this. It seems tailor made for the implementation of these sanctions. We probably need to be advised on which is the best course to take in this regard.

I broadly support the proposition. We, as a committee, should support the proposition that we do something and should ask, in turn, the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, to use the platform of the Presidency. I would like to caution that this is more about legislation to affect human rights abusers internationally and there is danger in just adopting the American proposal given this is a Russia-America conflict and the sanctions only affect abusers coming out of Russia and their investment. We must extend the concept of human rights abuses and allow the Government to use whatever legislation is required in Ireland to apply theses sanctions to countries other than Russia. I do not know long that would take but we should convey something to the Russian ambassador. We should also seek a briefing from the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade on this. I do not how well briefed it is on this issue and how sensitive officials might feel this is because there could be retaliation from a country with which we are building trade relations. Delegations are going to Russia and there will be sensitivities before we arrive at a conclusion.

I would be more comfortable if the sanctions dealt only with this case because legislation will cover other cases.

If we follow this through it will be every tin-pot dictator and his henchmen throughout the world. So what we are being asked to do is significant.

I cannot get my head around how any government would allow this asset stripping. Perhaps the amount of money mentioned is not big relative to the Russian economy, but it is a huge amount. I do not know how a government could cover up its officials becoming multimillionaires. I would like to hear what the Russian ambassador has to say on the case. Mr. Browder may not be too happy with me suggesting that, but we should reflect on it. I was very moved by what he had to say today. While I have heard of the case, this is the first time I have actually looked at it in detail and today's session was very informative. We should invite the Russian ambassador to appear before the committee to discuss the case and consider the broader implications because it is not just this case - there are others. I would be comfortable enough with regard to tin-pot dictators and some of the other torturers, but many people are on that list.

We normally require four days' notice for members to table motions. If any member wants to produce a motion on this case, we can put it on the agenda for next week's meeting. It is up to the individual member to raise the motion and see if the committee is happy with such a motion. I do not want to agree on anything today because some members are absent and it would not be fair from that point of view. Is everybody happy with that?

Presumably there are many precedents. If all these other parliamentarians are pushing motions, perhaps we can mimic them.

I believe a particular motion was articulated.

If there is a motion agreeable to all the members, we can get some member to move that motion next week and we can have it on the agenda. Is that agreed? Agreed.

On behalf of the committee I thank Mr. Browder sincerely for his contribution this afternoon. The case clearly raises very disturbing questions and we will certainly need to monitor it. We would appreciate it if Mr. Browder would keep us informed on developments.

The joint committee went into private session 4.55 p.m. and adjourned at 5.05 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 6 March 2013.
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