Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade debate -
Wednesday, 3 Dec 2014

Human Rights and Access to Justice in Guatemala: Former Attorney General of Guatemala

Chairman

I welcome Dr. Paz y Paz Bailey, Mr Niall O'Keeffe of Trócaire and Ms Blanca Blanco, who is accompanying Dr. Bailey.

We are privileged to have Dr. Bailey, a human rights defender and former Attorney General of Guatemala. Her impressive CV speaks for itself. Members will be aware of the work she has undertaken in her home country and her international reputation. At one stage she was regarded as one of the most powerful women in the world. That is a very good CV to have. It is important to highlight how much she has done in her country. In her term as Attorney General the level of crime fell. Obviously there were other issues as well. As her country still suffers from poverty and corruption, it must be very difficult for her as a lecturer in Georgetown University to see what is happening in her country at the moment. We can see what can be done when a person such as her gets that job and does her job. Unfortunately, she was sacked for doing her job, which is very difficult for us to comprehend. We are delighted to have her here this afternoon. I am sure she will be able to address the committee first and then answer questions from the committee members.

I ask members and those in the public gallery to ensure that their mobile phones are switched off completely for the duration of the meeting as, even in silent mode, they cause interference with the recording equipment in the committee rooms.

I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses, or any official by name in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the joint committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Dr. Bailey is very welcome. She is a lawyer, academic, human rights defender, social activist and former Attorney General of Guatemala. It is a great CV to have. We are delighted and privileged to have her appear before the committee this afternoon. I thank Trócaire for organising this visit. I ask Dr. Bailey to make her presentation.

Dr. Claudia Paz y Paz Bailey

I thank the Chairman for his words. I thank all the members for attending to hear about our work in Guatemala. As members may know, Guatemala had a conflict that lasted for more than three decades. We signed peace accords in 1996 and we have some of the worst gross human rights violations. The truth commission documented more than 200,000 killings, and torture, rape and genocide. Even in the peace accords there was a commitment against impunity by the government and by the guerrilla forces. Ten years after the signing of the peace accords the situation in the country about security, justice and violence was really bad. We have a really bad situation regarding homicides and gender violence as in Honduras and El Salvador - the three countries called the "Northern Triangle" in Central America.

The answer of the state to all this violence really was impunity.

Because of this crisis and insecurity, and because we understood that organised crime has infiltrated the institutions in the justice system, the Guatemalan Government asked the United Nations for help and in 2007 a commission against impunity was established in the country. This is a unique commission because it has the power to investigate crimes and to present charges. With the commission in place changes began to take place. We have new authorities in the Supreme Court, new authorities in the police and a new general prosecutor. We started working as a team with the other institutions in the judicial system and changes began to appear. We were able to investigate, arrest and sanction drug traffickers. We were able also to investigate gangs - there is a problem also in Honduras and Guatemala - involved in murder and extortion. We were able to give a better response to gender violence. For the first time we were able to bring to justice a former Head of State who has been charged for crimes against humanity and genocide. We have a sentence, a conviction, the first one in Latin America, in a national court for genocide and crimes against humanity. The sentence lasted only ten years. It was then annulled by the constitutional court. The trial and the conviction were really important for the expansion of the rule of law in the country because it sent out a message that this type of crime should not happen and that the voice of the victims is heard by the justice system. Given that we have these advances there are some challenges because we have new authorities, a new general prosecutor, and a new magistrate to the supreme court. We need to ensure there are no setbacks in what we have achieved. I will leave it there. I do not know if Ms Blanco wishes to add anything.

Ms Blanca Blanco

Speaking as a Trócaire spokesperson, and Dr. Paz y Paz Bailey, as a former Attorney General, we are worried at the current situation faced by human rights defenders. This year alone 799 human rights defenders have received threats or been attacked, an increased from previous years. The people who are mostly attacked are human rights defenders who work on truth and justice, so this is a backlash from the genocide trial. Environmentalists are also attacked. Although Guatemala is a signatory of the ILO Convention on the right of indigenous peoples to be consulted about any extractive industry or any enterprise to be set up in their territory, there is no legal framework in Guatemalan law to implement it. Therefore, the efforts on consultations have mainly taken place on behalf of civil society. As Dr. Claudia Paz y Paz Bailey mentioned, Guatemala is one of the most violent countries that is not currently in a conflict situation, particularly in respect of violence against women. On average, two women are killed every day.

Chairman

Are they human rights defenders who are killed every day?

Ms Blanca Blanco

No. It is ordinary women.

Chairman

Are they the result of robberies, murders or domestic issues?

Dr. Claudia Paz y Paz Bailey

We have a really bad situation in the area of gender violence. Some 700 women are killed every year on grounds of domestic violence or ordinary crime but related to our situation as women.

Ms Blanca Blanco

We are also worried that the term of the international commission against impunity might not be renewed next year. As Dr. Claudia Paz y Paz Bailey mentioned it is the only independent body that can investigate. There will also be elections next year which is normally a turbulent time in Guatemala when there is a transition in Government. It is a pretty-----

Chairman

Deputy Eric Byrne has a question but perhaps Dr. Claudia Paz y Paz Bailey might talk about the political situation. Is there an opposition party and, if so, how strong and effective is it in the event of elections next year?

Dr. Claudia Paz y Paz Bailey

There are three parties that could go to the second round because in Guatemala we have to have a majority so the President could be elected. There are three major parties.

Chairman

I call Deputy Eric Byrne. I ask members to ask questions rather than make statements.

Deputy Eric Byrne

I will be brief.

Chairman

The Deputy may ask a couple of questions. I will come back to him.

Deputy Eric Byrne

I welcome the witnesses. I have read the detailed documentation provided. It would make the hair on one's head stand on edge, especially if one is a woman in that society, or one of the indigenous people. It is horrendous. I congratulate the witnesses on their work. Obviously, without the rule of law any society is destined to be a failed state. The United Nations is playing a role. I note it was happy that the former head of the prison service was arrested and sentenced to 88 years in jail. With the political interference that the witnesses allege is happening in the composition of the Judiciary, does the United Nations play a role in trying to counteract that?

Chairman

I ask the Deputy to wait for a moment while I ask one of the witnesses to answer that question.

Deputy Eric Byrne

I will not be a second.

Chairman

I will invite her to answer that question. I will come back to the Deputy for the other question. It is difficult for her to answer two or three questions.

Dr. Claudia Paz y Paz Bailey

The role of the United Nations in Guatemala is crucial because the commission against impunity is part of the United Nations. That is why it is so important that its mandate is renewed. It may end in September but the Government could ask the United Nations if it could continue for two further years. Ireland has supported this. That is one of the most important things because it has proved to be an independent body that could investigate corruption, organised crime and the infiltration of organised crime into the Judiciary. That is one of its most important roles. The international community also has an important role in monitoring the advances not only in ordinary justice but also given that there may be another trial in January against Efraín Ríos Montt, the former Head of State. The possibility that this person could be sanctioned again would be strengthened if there is an observer process in place from the international community.

Deputy Eric Byrne

That is very interesting. I visited Colombia. We are always reading about the horrors of Mexico and the problems of indigenous people in Guatemala. We have a letter from the Ambassador of Colombia dealing with the problems of mob law in the port city of Buenaventura. Is there something that we in the West do not understand about the region? There is a level of violence, not just against women but internal violence.

Our trade links are very weak. Only for Trócaire we might not hear a great deal except what we hear about Guatemala in the national media.

It strikes me as strange for a right-wing government to recognise Taiwan, state its opposition to the US embargo on Cuba and recognise the Palestinian state. How does one square those three facts with a right-wing interpretation of world politics?

Dr. Claudia Paz y Paz Bailey

Not all but most of the violence in the region is related to organised crime, to drug trafficking and narcotics because of the amount of money involved in these crimes. Even if we have a stranger in the institution, it is still weak. Murders take place in border areas where the drugs go from Honduras to Guatemala through the north and the money and armaments come back. It is drug-related because organised crime has the power to pay so that they can kill with impunity. The prosecutors, police officers or judges are faced with this choice, that is why an independent institution is so important. I would not say the Government is on the left or the right, I think what is important is to see what is happening inside Guatemala. There is the issue of debt.

Ms Blanca Blanco

Guatemala has one of the lowest tax revenues. During the peace accords it was encouraged to raise taxation to 16%, but it is currently at 12%. There is no political will to introduce tax reform measures in the country so that revenue cannot be reinvested in strengthening education and-or health.

Chairman

Before I hand over to Deputy Mitchell, I will ask Mr. Niall O'Keeffe from Trócaire to say a few words about Trócaire's involvement in Guatemala. It would be important to hear that. I know that Trócaire's regional director for Latin America, Sally O'Neill, who is based in Honduras, is a trojan worker for Trócaire and has done great work. She rang me to tell me Mr. O'Keeffe was coming before the joint committee. I thank her for the work she is doing on behalf of Trócaire. It is great for an NGO such as Trócaire to be working in the Latin American region.

Mr. Niall O'Keeffe

In general, Trócaire has been working on human rights issues in Guatemala for more than 20 years in response to the conflict which existed in the mid-1980s. It is similar to other countries, where we have been working on human rights issues, such as Rwanda, and the past few years in Kenya and Palestine. Human rights issues and engaging in supporting local activists, human rights defenders, is an important part of what we do. My colleague, Ms Blanco, can speak about our programme in detail.

Ms Blanca Blanco

The Guatemala office was set up in 2001 and for the past 13 years we have been supporting transitional justice after the peace accords and working with human rights defenders. The transitional justice work would be a comprehensive approach to justice not only in terms of legal access for victims of the conflict but also psychosocial support, for example, with regard to exhumations. The exhumations help people to bring the grieving cycle to a close but are also helpful as a testimony for the trial on genocide and other trials that have taken place. We work with women who were sexually assaulted during the conflict providing psychosocial and legal supports.

In terms of human rights defenders we are working with some international bodies, such as Peace Brigade International and some national organisations that provide training on security and help design security measures for organisations.

Deputy Byrne made the point about the weak trade links between Ireland and Guatemala. There is a signed EU association agreement with Central America. The commercial pillar has already been rolled out in Guatemala but one of our requests is that the democratic clauses, which have not been implemented yet, would be put in place. That would be our way of being able to monitor human rights abuses. We would encourage the European Union to move that forward.

Chairman

We will follow up on that.

Deputy Olivia Mitchell

I thank the witnesses for their presentation. My questions reflect the questions that have already been asked. The figures for gender-based violence are appalling. I was aware that there was a high level of violence against women in Guatemala because my daughter spent some time there and found it a beautiful country with beautiful people. I was quite happy when she left because I was aware of the violence, but I was not aware that it was so appalling. One only sees that level of gender violence in war situations where there is conflict.

It states that 97% of crimes go completely unpunished. That can happen only when there is political support for that to happen. Does the Government lack the will or the ability to enforce the law? Is the Government that weak? Does the Government accept it? Is it a legacy of the war that violence just becomes acceptable? Is there anything we can do as a country or as a member of the European Community to help the women in particular?

Dr. Claudia Paz y Paz Bailey

Steps have been taken to address the situation. A few years ago, violence against women was not a crime in Guatemala. It was sanctioned in 2008. We did not have the specialisation to address the issue. The steps are now in place and are working in certain areas but not throughout the country. They need to be applied throughout the country. Deputy Mitchell asked if it was a matter of political will. I think the political will is there to address these issues, not just gender-based violence, but to strengthen the judicial system and to give access to justice to all the population.

What should be observed is whether there is enough respect for the independence of all of the powers in the republic and enough support for judges, prosecutors and human rights defenders to do their job. The European Union has a role to play, as does Ireland, in supporting the job done by human rights defenders and the International Commission against Impunity, and in asking our government whether it is doing enough to address gender violence.

Chairman

During her time as attorney general in Guatemala, Ms Paz y Paz Bailey's work resulted in a drop of 9% in the crime rate and a 23% drop in impunity. Were serious threats made to her life, particularly from drug barons and other groups in Guatemala?

Dr. Claudia Paz y Paz Bailey

There are always risks to being a prosecutor or a police officer and they come with the job when one accepts it. What happened to me, victims, human rights defenders and judges working on genocide cases was a dirty campaign against us whereby it was stated we were not pursuing justice but committing acts of revenge. This was difficult because it made the discussion about something it was not. We had a duty to investigate crime, and if someone has committed a crime he or she should be sanctioned.

Deputy Dan Neville

Dr. Paz y Paz Bailey was unhappy with the position - or lethargy - of the European Union, and rightly so from what I read, with regard to the human rights situation in Guatemala. Will she expand on this? I am surprised the European Union is not more assertive in exposing what is happening or influencing the situation. The human rights situation in Guatemala does not have a high profile in Europe.

Dr. Claudia Paz y Paz Bailey

I wish the Deputy spoke Spanish; perhaps Ms Blanco will help me with my reply. Perhaps I did not emphasise the role of the European Union, which has been very supportive. It has provided €20 million to strengthen the judicial system, and I ask for this to continue. I also ask the European Union to monitor abuses of human rights defenders, to monitor the independence of the judiciary, and to support politically and financially the International Commission against Impunity.

Senator Michael Mullins

I welcome our visitors. Dr. Paz y Paz Bailey spoke about 700 women per year being killed. Is this the figure for this year? What was the level of deaths of women prior to the peace accord? The documentation we received states the Guatemalan president campaigned on a policy of zero tolerance in his election campaign in 2011. Is he likely to be returned? What is the position of opposition parties, or the alternative government, on the level of crime in the country? Would a change of government improve the situation? In the event of a change of government, does Dr. Paz y Paz Bailey sees herself returning as attorney general, given the good work she did prior to removal in May 2014?

Dr. Claudia Paz y Paz Bailey

Steps have been taken to fight organised crime, but it needs to continue. We have new authorities in the judiciary system and a new general prosecutor, and we shall see whether they continue in this way or whether they take a step back. We should wait and see. I have been in the United States and I hope to return to Guatemala soon, perhaps not as general prosecutor but as a professor, which was my previous job.

Ms Blanca Blanco

A total of 758 women were killed last year and 532 have been killed so far this year. The figures we gave were an average. These occurred after the peace agreement.

Dr. Claudia Paz y Paz Bailey

During the worst years of the war genocide was committed, but then the amount of violence decreased. After the signing of the peace accords the amount of violence increased again. We have higher levels of violence now than we did when the peace agreement was signed. This is linked to organised crime, gender violence and trafficking.

Senator Michael Mullins

Since the dip in the worldwide economy in 2009, Guatemala's economy has begun to improve considerably. What has been the main contributor to this?

Dr. Claudia Paz y Paz Bailey

It is a paradox that while Guatemala has the highest income in Central America, it is not well distributed. We also have the highest inequality rates in the region. This issue is linked to taxes.

Chairman

To return to the forthcoming elections in Guatemala, which will take place next year, I want to focus on the opposition parties. Deputy Byrne referred to Colombia, where recently matters have improved very much as a result of the commitment by the president to give rights to the people.

Is there any opposition leader who stands out in Guatemala who can give leadership and persuade the people he will get rid of the violence and corruption under a new government? How strong are the opposition parties? There is now an opportunity for the Guatemalan people to decide their future, and particularly who they will vote for in the forthcoming elections. Have the elections been fair or corrupt? Has there been vote-rigging? Have the elections been monitored by international bodies?

Dr. Claudia Paz y Paz Bailey

The elections processes before this one have been fair.

Chairman

They have been fair.

Dr. Claudia Paz y Paz Bailey

Since I come from the judiciary system, it is very hard for me to express my opinion on the political parties in the country now. However, what I can say is that they are very weak. They live for one election and after that they change, dissolve or form another party. The whole system of political parties is weak. For example, the two parties that signed the peace accords now have only one representative out of 150. One of our biggest worries is that along the borders, organised criminals linked to narcotics trafficking have a lot of money and they influence and finance the campaigns. That is another part of the problem.

Chairman

Is there corruption in the police and army?

Dr. Claudia Paz y Paz Bailey

Yes, there is corruption. We fight that by criminal investigations. That is why the process I mentioned is present in the country. Even the government recognises that organised crime has infiltrated the army, police, prosecutor’s office and offices of the judges.

Deputy Brendan Smith

I apologise for being late but I had two committee meetings at the same time. I apologise for not having heard the contributions but I will have a chance to read the written record of these proceedings.

The Chairman asked about the level of corruption. Obviously, the prevalence of violence has to be a source of concern to the international community. According to one of the documents I read, greater visibility is required in respect of the relationship between the European Union and Guatemala. I refer in particular to highlighting the difficulties that face human rights defenders and those concerned with the administration of justice and judicial independence. Apart from raising this with our Government and Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, what effective measures can we implement through the European Union to help in dealing with those very serious issues?

Ms Blanca Blanco

Dr. Pas y Paz Bailey identifies three ways of contributing and strengthening the European Union's contribution to Guatemala. One is the implementation of the human rights clause on the association agreement between the European Union and Central America. Dr. Pas y Paz Bailey did not mention that there will be a summit next June in Brussels, the EU-CLAC summit. The Heads of State from Latin America should be taking part in that. It will be a way of entering into dialogue. The European Union Guidelines on Human Rights Defenders have been in place for the past ten years but Dr. Paz y Paz Bailey encourages the European Union to continue monitoring and implementing the recommendations in the guidelines in Guatemala in terms of socialisation. The European Union should continue offering political and financial support to the International Commission against Impunity in Guatemala, which is a United Nations body.

Deputy Brendan Smith

With regard to next year's summit, I presume a limited number of EU representatives will attend. I presume they will include the President of the Commission, representatives of whatever country holds the Presidency and the European Commissioner for External Relations. I presume this committee could ask our Minister to seek, in advance of the summit, that these issues be discussed at an EU Foreign Affairs Council meeting. I presume each member state will not be participating at the summit, but if our Minister raised the relevant issues at a meeting of the Council of Ministers in advance, it might be of some help.

Deputy Eric Byrne

The European Union has trade agreements with Colombia and Peru that are awaiting ratification by Ireland. Some 18 countries in Europe have ratified them. I understand the European Union has an ambassador in Colombia. Does the European Union have an ambassador in Guatemala? Having one would help us put pressure on our Minister, who is to attend the Council of Ministers meeting on the agreements. There was a commitment to have a debate here on the Colombian ambassador. Is there an ambassador in Guatemala? If so, we are in a more powerful position to use this committee to impress upon the Minister the need to highlight at his next Council of Ministers meeting all these issues, not only those pertaining to Guatemala. Many of the issues the delegates are talking about seem to be replicated in parts of Colombia.

Mr. Niall O'Keeffe

Could the Deputy clarify whether he was talking about an EU ambassador or an Irish ambassador?

Deputy Eric Byrne

An EU ambassador.

Mr. Niall O'Keeffe

There is an EU ambassador.

Ms Blanca Blanco

Her name is Ms Stella Zervoudaki.

Mr. Niall O'Keeffe

In advance of the summit meeting next year, the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade in Ireland will be engaging with all the other EU members. The Latin America desks in each member state will be preparing, over a number of months, the various matters that need to be addressed at the summit.

Chairman

What is the process in regard to the meeting?

Mr. Niall O'Keeffe

Normally, it is a matter for the Commission and the rotating chairperson of the Council at that stage. The agenda is discussed well in advance, usually four five months in advance. There is an opportunity for each country to feed into the process at Commission level to raise issues and make recommendations. It is a really good opportunity for Ireland to contribute to the debate at that stage.

Chairman

We will certainly keep a close eye on the meeting scheduled for early 2015. We will take note of the delegates' comments today and contact the Minister and Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade to highlight the very serious issues facing Guatemala.

It is important that the EU takes an interest. The ambassador in Guatemala is well aware of these issues. We will ask our Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade to highlight this issue at the highest level.

In this committee's capacity as the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, we intend to highlight this issue at our meetings with our colleagues from the 28 member states who serve on foreign affairs committees. Yesterday, a member of this committee attended a meeting on my behalf - I was unable to attend - to discuss the Balkans. It is hoped that the new high representative and the EU committee would hold a meeting to discuss human rights issues in Latin America.

I thank the delegates most sincerely for their attendance today. I thank Niall O'Keeffe who is in charge of human rights issues with Trócaire and Ms Blanca Blanco, Trócaire country director for Guatemala. We appreciate very much the work of Trócaire in Colombia which I saw for myself when I visited that country a number of years ago with our now President of Ireland, Michael D. Higgins, who was a member of the committee at the time. That meeting was organised by Sally O'Neill and she travelled with us to Colombia. It was a very valuable visit because as a result we are still dealing with issues relating to Colombia because the members who travelled there were well aware of the human rights situation. I am pleased to report that the situation has improved in Colombia and we would like a similar situation to come about in Guatemala where there is a real issue with human rights. It is up to us as parliamentarians and to the Government to highlight these issues and to ensure that the people of Guatemala are not subject to killings and other punishments which they are forced to endure as a consequence of corruption and the drugs trade.

I thank our special witness, Dr. Claudia Paz y Paz Bailey for coming before the committee and highlighting this issue for us. I thank her for her work when she was the Attorney General of Guatemala. I wish her well in her career as a lecturer in Georgetown University and I hope she will make a return visit to this country very soon. I thank her for the written submission and presentation. Members of the committee who are unavoidably absent from this meeting will have read the written submission and presentation. I am sure the committee will return to considering the very serious human rights situation in Guatemala.

Dr. Claudia Paz y Paz Bailey

I thank the Chairman and the members of the committee for allowing me to share what happened in Guatemala.

The joint committee went into private session at 3.35 p.m. and adjourned at 3.37 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 10 December 2014.