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Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence debate -
Thursday, 9 Feb 2017

Defence Forces Reserve: Reserve Defence Force Representative Association

In the first part of today's meeting we will meet with representatives of the Reserve Defence Force Representative Association, including Mr. Neil Richardson, general secretary, Mr. Eugene Gargan, chairperson, and Mr. John Leahy, member of the national executive committee. I welcome the witnesses to this morning's meeting. The format of the meeting is that we will hear the witness's opening statement before going into a question and answer session with the members of the committee. Before we begin may I remind members, witnesses and those in the Public Gallery to ensure that their mobile phones are switched off completely for the duration of the meeting as they cause interference with the recording and broadcast equipment in the committee room even on silent mode.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses, or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the joint committee. If, however, they are directed by the Chairman to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or an entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Mr. Neil Richardson

I thank the Chairman, Deputies and Senators. During the last appearance of the Reserve Defence Force Representative Association, RDFRA, in November 2015 before the then Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality, we spoke about various issues facing the Reserve Defence Force at that time. The association was keen to work openly, supportively and closely with the military authorities and the Department of Defence towards the resolution of all issues. At the time, the 2015 White Paper on Defence had just been published. It was RDFRA’s intention to fully support the implementation of this document, and so we actively endorsed and promoted the White Paper to our members. All in all, we expected 2016 to be a positive and growth-filled year for the Reserve. Sadly, the result was exactly the opposite.

In terms of recruitment, generally the main concern on the lips of every reservist, there were 341 new recruits who joined the organisation in 2015, a welcome increase of 184 on the previous year’s figure of 157. However, by the end of October 2016, only 47 new recruits had been trained by the Reserve since the start of the year. The military authorities hoped that the figure might reach between 80 and 100 by the end of the year. It ended up being somewhere in the region of 60.

Recruitment is the life blood of the Reserve and without a steady flow of new recruits the organisation is doomed to erode away to nothing. During our November 2015 opening address to the joint committee, I personally stated that:

This year, recruitment competitions yielded an increase of just over 300 new members, but retirements due to natural wastage resulted in a loss of over 200 other personnel. Overall, this produced a net gain of approximately 100 new members. If this rate of increase were to continue year on year into the future, it will be 2030 before the Reserve will have recruited up to its establishment.

Within weeks of saying this, we could have revised this statement to point out that retirements were now outstripping recruitment. While the Reserve had 2,280 effective members at the end of 2015, this had reduced to 2,049 by the end of 2016.

Most tellingly, application figures actually increased from 2014 onwards. In 2014, the Reserve received 4,870 applications to join while between September 2015 and December 2016, a period during which there was an administrative pause on Reserve recruitment for several months to allow for a Permanent Defence Force recruitment competition, the Reserve received 5,891 applications to join. Somehow, while the 4,870 applications received in 2014 resulted in 341 new recruits in 2015, the 5,891 applications from the next round of recruiting resulted in approximately only 60 recruits. For some reason in 2016, the ability of the Defence Forces to induct new reservists plummeted.

The problem partially stems from the overburdening of Permanent Defence Force staff in various offices that deal with recruitment. These offices are staffed by only a handful of personnel at best and are responsible for Permanent and Reserve recruitment, along with a host of other tasks. Anything to do with the Reserve is often given the lowest priority, meaning that vital Reserve administration is often attended to only months after a due date, resulting in endless delays that see some Reserve applicants waiting over 18 months to undergo the required tests to join the Reserve. The other half of the problem is the unwillingness of some Permanent Defence Force personnel to support Reserve recruitment endeavours. While many are genuinely seeking to do their jobs and support the Reserve but are completely snowed under, others simply view the Reserve as not a real part of the Defence Forces, and so therefore not really important in the grand scheme of things. It must be added that, when members of the Permanent Defence Force act in such a way towards the Reserve, they rarely, if ever, are reprimanded by higher military authority. In essence, an insidious culture of discrimination is allowed to go unchecked.

Either way, the negative handling of Reserve recruitment has the same effect. The goodwill and enthusiasm of many Reserve applicants is utterly destroyed, producing in them a lasting and unfairly negative opinion of the Reserve, while the Reserve itself gets smaller and smaller, despite the thousands of young Irish men and women looking to join each year. Based on current trends, our association’s previous prediction that the Reserve would not recruit up to establishment strength until 2030 has proved to be grossly optimistic.

If the net loss of 200 members that the Reserve experienced this year continues into the future, the Reserve will cease to exist by 2026. It is likely it will be seen as impractical to sustain long before that. We would like to strongly re-emphasise that this is not due to a lack of interest from people looking to join and improve both themselves and their communities via Reserve military service to the State but rather it is due to the lack of importance with which the Reserve is viewed by elements within the Defence Forces and Department of Defence.

Sadly, recruitment is not the only area in which the Reserve is mishandled and mistreated. The RDFRA has been fighting the case for improvements to the personal protective equipment, PPE, supplied to the Reserve for years. Unlike with members of the Permanent Defence Force, reservists do not obtain a personal issue of many items of PPE. Instead, Reserve units pool this equipment for use by various individuals when required. With regard to other items of PPE, most notably cold weather clothing, reservists do not receive any meaningful items of this type at all. In terms of the pooled items, this equipment is regularly returned to storerooms in a heavily soiled state, only to be stored in this condition for weeks or months before being handed out to a different reservist in the future. I invite the committee to imagine what a mould-covered, sweat-soaked helmet or a wetsuit covered in mud and sheep faeces look like when they are removed from a warm storeroom after several months of storage. Furthermore, we wish to point out that the reservists who assisted with flood relief efforts around the country during the winter of 2015-16 did so almost exclusively with items of warm clothing they had purchased themselves because the Defence Forces does not issue them with any such clothing beyond a thin Norwegian top that is hardly sufficient for minus temperatures. In order to combat this health and safety disaster waiting to happen in respect of the pooled equipment, the RDFRA had several meetings with senior military management and it was agreed that regulations on the correct cleaning of pooled PPE would be drafted and widely circulated to Defence Forces logistics personnel. Despite receiving multiple assurances that this would be done, logistics personnel in storerooms around the country are still unaware of this directive. In contrast, when an issue arose over whether Reserve officers would be permitted to continue wearing a peaked cap with their dress uniform, an item of clothing normally worn by Permanent Defence Force officers only, the relevant regulations were speedily amended to prohibit the wearing of this item of clothing by Reserve officers. This instruction was widely and effectively circulated to ensure compliance. This example only proves that certain echelons of the Defence Forces care less about the correct provision of PPE for reservists and more about trivialities such as making sure that Reserve officers cannot be mistaken for Permanent Defence Force officers when wearing their dress uniforms. This example also proves that the mechanisms to make changes clearly exist but are not being utilised for the benefit of reservists.

Similarly, the RDFRA has continually requested that necessary amendments be made to other Defence Forces regulations governing the Reserve, most notably R5 and S7, only to be informed month after month and year after year that these regulations are still currently in the process of being examined. However, as the peaked cap issue shows, it seems that when there is a will for Reserve regulatory reform, it can happen very quickly. In 2015, the RDFRA argued that the end-of-year gratuity, which was taken from members following the 2012 value-for-money report, should be reintroduced both to incentivise new members to join and to help offset the often substantial costs incurred by members during their annual service. It should be remembered that reservists undertake their duties in a predominantly voluntary unpaid capacity and due to past barracks closures must now travel considerable distances to reach their training centres. A returned gratuity would at least make serving in the Reserve more cost neutral than it is at present. Now, however, we find ourselves faced with an extremely blasé attitude emanating from the Defence Forces and the Department of Defence towards normal Reserve pay, that is, the pay reservists receive for undertaking short blocks of full-time training each year. One of the most frequent issues raised by reservists with the RDFRA pertains to late payments. One of the Defence Forces' own internal documents, Army Financial Circular 297, states that a reservist must be paid on the Friday of the week in which they have undertaken paid full-time training. Despite this clear instruction, reservists frequently only receive their pay after a delay of a number of weeks or sometimes several months. In early 2017, the RDFRA even dealt with one case where a member was still awaiting pay dating back to December 2015. Whenever these issues are raised by the RDFRA, the response is generally that maladministration in the reservist's unit is the cause, as if explaining the cause of the problem is somehow the same as fixing it.

Put simply, when reservists receive pay, it is regularly treated as though it were an income supplement or a bonus of some sort, that is, moneys that reservists are receiving on top of their civilian wage and therefore, moneys they do not really require as a matter of urgency. This is an outrageous and inaccurate view. In fact, many reservists take unpaid leave from work to attend periods of Reserve full-time training and so their Reserve pay is actually an income replacement for that period, not a supplement. Furthermore, there have been tragic cases of reservists in receipt of social welfare payments who have signed off from their welfare payments to undertake paid periods of Reserve full-time training, only to be told in the middle of the training week that the paperwork to pay them has not been processed and consequently they will receive their Reserve pay at some undefined time in the future. Subsequently, their attendance at that period of Reserve full-time training does not carry with it a social contribution as they received neither a welfare payment nor Reserve pay during that week. Worst of all, thanks to their decision to undertake military service to the State for that period, they are left without any source of income for that period. This was the situation in which several reservists found themselves in the weeks preceding Christmas last year. Furthermore, if late payments are finally paid to a reservist in a subsequent calendar year, this adversely impacts their annual tax credits. No matter how often these concerns are raised, there seems to be either an inability or an unwillingness to seriously address and remedy the problems. I invite the committee to imagine what might happen in any Department or private sector business if employees were informed that their pay each week would arrive at some point in the future but no one could say when for sure. We have no recourse to the industrial relations mechanisms of the State such as the Workplace Relations Commission to formally address this issue and without official reprimand or rebuke, there is little prospect of any meaningful changes or improvements to this issue.

Ultimately, the RDFRA believes that the constant river of obstacles faced by the Reserve stems from a culture within the Department of Defence and elements within the military authorities who simply could not care less about the Reserve Defence Force. This has been allowed to flourish, unchecked by Oireachtas or public scrutiny. In terms of the Department of Defence, its level of engagement with the RDFRA, particularly in respect of the implementation of the 2015 White Paper on Defence, has been deeply troubling. The RDFRA and the Reserve are considered only as an afterthought. Delegations from the RDFRA have arrived at White Paper joint implementation team briefings to be provided with documents that had been circulated among other key stakeholders well in advance of the meeting but which the RDFRA had not received. Queries raised and requests made by the RDFRA go unanswered while all attempts by the RDFRA to engage further in the White Paper implementation process are rejected or ignored. For example, when questioned about the number of reservists sitting on the 12 Reserve-relevant projects arising from the White Paper, a member of the White Paper joint implementation team had to think hard about how many reservists were actually sitting on these project teams. They knew of one and possibly of two. It is hard to imagine that key stakeholders would not be centrally and widely involved in the various White Paper project teams but when it comes to the 12 projects linked to the Reserve, there are only two reservists permitted to be involved. The RDFRA has continually recommended known subject matter experts within the Reserve, one of whom has conducted considerable academic research on the Reserve, to the Department of Defence in the hopes that these experts will be utilised as part of the White Paper project teams. Again, all recommendations made by the RDFRA have been ignored. This leads us to the inevitable conclusion that the Department of Defence has an agenda and a desired outcome for the Reserve and neither the RDFRA nor any qualified reservists will have the opportunity to influence that goal in any way. To be blunt, the effect of this latent policy is to run the remains of the Reserve into the ground for the Department's own reasons; reasons which we believe run counter to the stated policy of the current and previous Governments.

The level of engagement experienced by the RDFRA from the military authorities is, overall, somewhat more positive. Most issues arise from individuals who are not adhering to Defence Forces policy or from specific offices in which Reserve matters fall through the cracks either on purpose or due to overburdened staff. Meanwhile, on the whole, the general staff are positively disposed towards the Reserve. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said to be true with the Naval Service Reserve. Once, the Naval Service Reserve was the shining light of the Reserve. At points in the recent past, Naval Service vessels would not have been able to put to sea if it were not for members of the Naval Service Reserve going aboard as extra crew when needed. Now, the Naval Service Reserve is the basket case of the Reserve. The command element of the Naval Service responsible for the Reserve engages with it in what can only be described as an erratic, highly questionable manner. Recruitment, training, and the provision of necessary supports are areas of extreme concern. In terms of recruitment, the current batch of Naval Service Reserve applicants have recently been asked to complete Garda security vetting applications for the third time. They were first asked to complete this in January 2016, then again in June and July 2016, and now they have been asked to do so for a third time. These are applicants who applied to join the Naval Service Reserve in late 2015 and who still have not been inducted into the organisation. It would not be hard to reverse the situation in the Naval Service Reserve, given the high level of expertise and qualifications present within the Reserve members of the organisation, but if Naval Service management does not wish to repair and grow the Naval Service Reserve, then its fate is sealed.

Sadly, the RDFRA must also report that, even at the highest levels, meaningful engagement is lacking. Since the start of July 2016, the RDFRA has forwarded nine letters on matters of critical importance to the office of the Minister with responsibility for Defence. Aside from an acknowledgement of receipt reply received by the RDFRA in each instance, no letters of reply have been received to any of these communications. To sum up, the Reserve is a vital asset at the State's disposal. It is comprised of hardworking, enthusiastic and patriotic volunteers who undertake their Reserve duties in a predominantly unpaid capacity. Crucially, this makes the Reserve a very inexpensive force to maintain. To put it in context, the 2014 Reserve pay bill equated to only 75% of the annual cost of private cleaners to clean Defence Forces buildings that year, while the 2015 Reserve pay bill almost matched the Defence Forces 2015 natural gas bill. One would be very hard pressed to find an organisation that would not be excited at the prospect of having 4,000 willing and enthusiastic volunteers who will predominantly work for free in their service. However, the Reserve is not just a collection of patriotic Irish men and women. We are doctors, engineers, IT experts, legal professionals, academics, entrepreneurs, business owners, tradespersons, civil servants and students.

In essence, we come from all walks of life and provide the Defence Forces with a huge range of specialist skills. In fact, in 2016, six reservists – all with highly impressive IT backgrounds – revolutionised the communications systems that the Defence Forces were due to provide to the EU battle group then training in Germany. All that was required for the Defence Forces to be impressive on the international stage was for these six reservists to travel to Germany for a number of days to set up their equipment after transit, after which the Permanent Defence Forces element of the battle group could operate the equipment and the reservists could travel home. However, because of legislation which states that only members of the Permanent Defence Forces can serve overseas in operational roles, these reservists were prohibited from travelling to Germany and the Defence Forces were subsequently unable to deploy the equipment they had developed.

This ban on letting reservists travel overseas, no matter how briefly, was even extended to a group of reservists who were invited to view British Army reserve training procedures in Ballykinler, County Down, in 2016. The invitation had to be rejected after the Department of Defence deemed this to be operational service overseas. Arguments that there is no sea between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland fell on deaf ears. We see no benefit to the continued existence of this policy, as it hampers the Defence Forces in the delivery of their operational targets. It is perhaps ironic that in the year in which the State commemorated the memory of a group of volunteer, patriotic men and women who were not professional soldiers, the Irish Reserve Defence Forces should be so mishandled and mistreated, despite all of the added value that it provides to the State.

Those who should be ensuring that the Reserve Defence Force is maintained and grown as per the 2015 White Paper on Defence, seem to care very little about the future of the force. So we are here today in the hope of improving the fortunes of this great and proud asset to the State before it is too late.

I would now like to invite questions from members.

I thank Mr. Richardson very much. He clearly outlined many matters of concern to us, including poor administrative practices and a Reserve Defence Force which is declining in numbers. He even pointed out the threat to its very existence within the next ten years.

I have represented two of the southern Ulster counties, Cavan and Monaghan, for a considerable number of years. I grew up in a Border community. On a number of occasions in this committee, and also in the Dáil Chamber, I have outlined the importance and value I have always attached to the Reserve Defence Force. I have seen many young, vulnerable people whose lives were turned around by their participation in the Defence Forces. It allowed them to become top-class citizens working in the local community and in the national interest as well. I am talking about young people who could have been targeted by paramilitary organisations and other undesirables to bring them on the wrong path. I must re-emphasise the role the Reserve Defence Force has played in the lives of so many individuals and families.

On the occasion of our previous meeting, we discussed the Estimates with the Minister of State, Deputy Kehoe. I gathered from him that there was a difficulty in recruiting people. The Minister of State said that if we had ideas for recruitment he would welcome them. Many of our colleges of further education run courses in security nowadays, so I suggested that that cohort of young students could be targeted. They might be interested in enlisting. However, in light of the Minister of State's message to us that people are not, how does one generate interest? What Mr. Richardson has said contrasts sharply with what I gathered from the Minister of State's message to us.

As a representative of a Border community, I emphasised the important role the Reserve Defence Force has played and should continue to play. The committee will be disturbed by the contents of the presentation. When we had an opportunity to discuss defence issues at previous meetings, all my colleagues spoke clearly about the importance of the Reserve Defence Force. We must support the latter and encourage as great a level of recruitment and participation as possible.

I will take some other colleagues now and perhaps Mr. Richardson can respond to all of them after that.

The presentation was very interesting and those serious concerns made for grim reading. In my previous life as a secondary teacher in Dublin, Defence Forces representatives used to come in and speak to the girls. There was always great interest due to the way in which the benefits of getting involved were presented. I am glad to say that some of them subsequently did.

As I listened to the presentation, I thought there was obviously something wrong with the culture, but Mr. Richardson made that point himself. Can he elaborate on that a little bit? He said there is a more positive engagement with the military authorities, yet he does not see that with the Naval Service Reserve, so I would like to hear about that. On what basis did the very few numbers make it through, while others were rejected?

Does Mr. Richardson have examples of international best practice in similar reserve forces? We know their value and benefit, but are there procedural, funding or resource issues that other countries have and from which we could learn? From what Mr. Richardson is saying, there seems to be a dumbing down. I think it is something that we can pursue.

I think the Chairman's support for the Reserve Defence Force can be in no doubt. He has spoken on many occasions about its value in light of his own experience. I have agreed with him on all of those occasions.

As members of the committee will be aware, I served with the Reserve Defence Force for about 13 years. Mr. Richardson and I trained and served together over many years, so I have first-hand experience of what the organisation can bring to a community and an individual. There is no doubt that the RDF helped to shape the person I am today. It played a huge part in my development as a young person from when I joined, through college and into my 20s. Perhaps the Defence Forces and the Department do not fully appreciate the social value of the Reserve Defence Force, as well as the community value it brings. I attended the official closing of my barracks and the removal of the Permanent Defence Force unit there. We now retain a small outpost, which is only a shadow of the former facility in the centre of Castlebar. It represents a huge loss to the community. In addition, it highlights the disadvantages for people in that area because they do not have access to the military as much as they had previously.

The voluntary nature of the organisation and the spirit of volunteerism represented by the RDF is lost on many citizens. That was outlined very eloquently by Mr. Richardson, including the many hours of service given by reservists of their own free will without any remuneration. Very often it is undertaken at a big personal cost to themselves, not just in terms of foregoing wages or salaries for their training period, but also in having to purchase their own equipment. I have had personal experience of going on numerous training courses when I was not properly equipped by the Defence Forces to attend such courses. I was obliged, therefore, to purchase my own equipment, including a pair of tactical boots because I was not provided with any. I was expected to go on the ground for two or three nights in barrack boots, which are unsuitable and present a health and safety issue. They are not proper protective equipment for the individual going on such an exercise. Reservists will return from manoeuvres with foot problems as a result. The only option open to me was to purchase my own tactical boots. I was fortunate to be able to do so, but many reservists cannot afford it. That situation is totally unacceptable.

Similarly, the lack of warm clothing was also mentioned. The clothing provided to reservists is totally inadequate for colder temperatures. There is also a real issue concerning the pooling of personal equipment. I have put on a helmet which was worn God knows how many times and was probably never cleaned. We just got on with it, but it is not acceptable. It certainly presents a health issue for Reserve Defence Force members who have to don clothing that is neither clean nor fit for purpose. The Minister can certainly address all these issues in the immediate future, and he must answer for the relevant resourcing and funding.

If I am going on too long, I would have no difficulty in stepping out and coming back in at a later stage. I have a number of questions to ask, but before doing so I wish to reiterate my unwavering support for the Reserve Defence Force. I recognise the campaign under way to diminish the capacity of the reserves, and the Department's unwillingness to step up to the plate by adequately assisting with recruitment. I scoff at the idea that somehow we are having difficulties in recruiting people. That is not the problem. Thousands of people have applied to join our Reserve Defence Force but only a small fraction have been inducted.

Last year, fewer than 100 of more than 5,000 applicants were inducted. The problem lies not with the Reserve Defence Force but with the Department and senior ranking members in the organisation who are actively placing obstacles in the way of the induction and recruitment of new members. This issue has been ongoing for many years. I have raised it with the Minister in the Dáil several times through parliamentary questions and in this committee but nothing has been done. The Minister of State, Deputy Kehoe, suggested that the problem was somehow that the organisation was experiencing a difficulty in attracting talent. That is far from the case, as has been made clear to him on several occasions. He is failing miserably to address this issue properly.

I ask Mr. Richardson to discuss in greater detail the issue of Reserve Defence Force pay because many aspects of pay are not clear and it would be of benefit to the joint committee to learn more about it. The White Paper on Defence published in August 2015 included a commitment to seek the views and comments of the Reserve Defence Force Representative Association, RDFRA, on all matters concerning the implementation of the White Paper. Has the RDFRA been contacted to elicit its views or comments on any aspect of the implementation of the White Paper pertaining to the RDF? I am also interested in hearing the RDFRA's views on issues arising in implementing the White Paper and how the single force structure has been working since its introduction.

I would also appreciate if the witnesses would offer a view on the reasons for the under-utilisation of training man days last year. What difficulties are preventing those currently enlisted from taking up training man days? How could the joint committee better support and retain serving members of the Reserve Defence Force? While retention is also an issue for the Permanent Defence Force, the reasons for retention difficulties may be slightly different with the Reserve Defence Force.

What issues arise with regard to security clearance requirements? While I have a fairly good idea as to what they are, I ask the witnesses to outline what they know in this regard. I have submitted questions to the Departments of Justice and Equality and Defence on this matter. For the information of the committee, I was initially informed by the Department of Defence that problems with security clearance arose at the Garda stage. When I tabled a question to the Minister for Justice and Equality asking how long it took for security clearance applications to be processed by the Garda, I was informed that it took approximately six weeks, although it can take up to 12. Given that people have been waiting for more than a year for security clearance, it seems the problem lies with the Department of Defence rather than the Department of Department of Justice and Equality.

I am aware that RDFRA has requested additional funding from the Department. Will it provide an update on that matter? I wrote to the Minister in respect of it because I was aware that the RDFRA was experiencing difficulties obtaining a reply.

The issue of personal protective equipment, about which I intended to ask some questions, has been largely covered. I am interested in hearing the RDFRA's views on the establishment of a specialist reserve. I am pleased, therefore, that Mr. Richardson noted the vast experience, expertise and knowledge available within the Reserve Defence Force. We have slightly more than 2,000 Reserve Defence Force members. It is extraordinary that we are not using the wide range of skills this group of people, who come from a variety of professions and trades, has to offer. I ask Mr. Richardson to outline his views on the specialist reserve and the establishment of same.

I welcome the witnesses and thank them for their submission. The concerns they have outlined paint a damning picture. Will they provide some details on what type of funding the RDFRA receives? What roles should professionally qualified Reserve Defence Force members assume in the Defence Forces? What particular skills and professional qualifications are they seeking to acquire?

When we discussed this issue previously I asked a question about the Defence Forces plan to raise awareness and attract more recruits from counties where they are experiencing difficulties recruiting members. I asked what plans they had in this regard and whether social media were being used to attract recruits. My constituency of Sligo-Leitrim includes parts of counties Cavan and Donegal. I am aware, therefore, of the work being done by the Reserve Defence Force. I support the Chairman's comments and applaud the work the Reserve Defence Force has done over many years.

I ask the witnesses to respond before we take questions from three other members.

Mr. Eugene Gargan

The Chairman correctly referred to the social value of membership of the Reserve Defence Force. We have taken the view, in light of the response by the military authorities, that they do not see any value whatever to the social element and that we are viewed exclusively through the prism of military value. We recognise that a person who enlists in the Reserve Defence Force derives great benefit from membership. It gives members a sense of purpose and they learn how to operate in a military fashion, as soldiers and with discipline, all of which are very good features and something on which other jurisdictions capitalise. Reference was made to best practice elsewhere. As a representative association, the RDFRA has made countless submissions and numerous points regarding comparators between the RDF and reserve forces in other European countries where the utilisation of the reserve is more effective both militarily and financially.

Culture is a nebulous concept in very large organisations such as the Defence Forces. We come to the issue based on our experience, anecdotal evidence and formal evidence from dealing with issues as they are presented to us. We are limited in what we can do. Reference was made to some of the Defence Forces regulations. Regulation S7, for example, covers the RDFRA as a representative body. We are very constrained in what we can do and how we can assist our members. Regulation R5 effectively covers how the Reserve Defence Force is run at a very high level. Certain aspects of the regulations are in glaring need of update and amendment. We have been waiting for these changes for many years.

The culture issue has emerged slowly in recent years. It exists in a place somewhere in the middle management of the Defence Forces. Mr. Richardson mentioned that the reception we get when we deal with the General Staff - the top layer of management in the Defence Forces - is always polite, business-like and positive. We are told there is a value that is recognised in the Reserve Defence Force and, as far as the General Staff are concerned, they are doing all they can to try to facilitate and utilise it in a meaningful and effective way. Put simply, this does not happen on the ground. The only place where we can identify a breakdown in what we would describe as the commanders' intentions is somewhere in the middle echelons. It is here that they fall apart.

We can probably point to the absence of set targets for unit commanders which specifically call out utilisation or training of Reserve Defence Force elements under their control. This is a problem because if there are no targets set at that level, there is no sanction for failing to meet such targets. I should point out, however, that an effort was made to introduce what is known as key performance indicators, KPIs, in the Defence Forces. This was essentially a matter of counting the number of man days and how many people were in and out. It did not address or seek to implement improvements, which is what we are seeking with the utilisation of the Reserve Defence Force.

As to how the culture manifests itself, in such a broad organisation with such large numbers of members, one invariably finds that some areas will be hot spots and others will be cold spots, if I may use that terminology. It must be recognised that in some areas of the Defence Forces there are individuals who are very pro-reserve. We are very sympathetic to them because they recognise the value of the Reserve Defence Force. Frequently, these individuals are commanders or other Defence Forces employees who were once members of the reserve. While they are great advocates for us, they are swimming against the current because if the rest of the organisation does not support their attempts to utilise us properly, it is a major problem.

I have to call that out and recognise the fact that it is not a universal condemnation of culture within the Defence Forces. However, there are areas where we can see that we represent a risk to someone's career. The safest thing to do with the Reserve under one's command is to do nothing with them so that it cannot do any harm. There are no specific targets set for utilisation.

We are dismayed, obviously, that the Defence Forces has issues with the processing of items such as security clearances. We have brought this up several times before and asked what the solution is to it. It is a simple thing. People coming from a business background will understand how business processes work. Documentation must be tracked through various stages where it is approved, where it goes, who has responsibility and who is accountable for it. There seems to be an unwillingness or an inability to provide for these types of processes, despite the fact that we have a large number of experts within the Reserve who can do this and would be happy to do it. It is quite convenient to blame an Garda Síochána and the Garda vetting unit, but in my experience of other areas I can say that the Garda vetting unit, especially since the advent of e-vetting, is actually quite effective and quite efficient at making returns. One has to ask what is actually happening. Anecdotally we hear that all the applications come in, they might sit on someone's desk, but because there is no sanction for failing to deal with this there is no incentive for anyone to deal with it. There is the breakdown in procedure. There is where the culture manifests itself.

I could speak for the rest of the day about the culture. I do not want to condemn the entire Permanent Defence Force because that would be unfair. There are some people who bend over backwards to help us, and we are hugely appreciative of that, but sadly they are in the minority.

Regarding recruitment, I would have to refute the point made earlier that there is a failure to recruit because people do not want to join the Reserves. Literally thousands of people want to join. If any other organisation had a return rate of less than one per cent for a recruitment campaign, very serious questions would have to be asked at a high level about what went wrong. Does the organisation possess the intention or the will to address these issues? We can only deduce from that that there is no such will. We can come to that conclusion considering recruitment and how we are constantly fighting with bureaucracy in terms of wages and man day allowances and getting personal protective equipment, which are very standard things in industry or enterprise in civilian life. If it was in a civilian context we would have access to the Workplace Relations Commission, the WRC. There is no sanction and so these issues arise again and again.

The Specialist Reserve was mentioned as well. At the time of the production of the White Paper the former Minister did invite us to participate in part of the process, and we willingly did, and we made our submissions and engaged as fully as we could. Our view at the time was that we endorsed the White Paper. There were some areas in the White Paper which could be interpreted in a number of ways, but we chose as a representative organisation to embrace it as a good thing. We took any ambiguity which arose from that document at face value and took the verbal assurances we got from the Department, the Minister and the military authorities that it would work out in our favour. They recognised our value, and they would seek to use us as best they could, notwithstanding the challenges of employer engagement and the issues that arose from that. We welcomed that. We recognised that the White Paper was an unfinished process and that there were wrinkles that would have to be ironed out, but we were there to help. What we found was that we were invited to the project meetings almost as an afterthought, and that the rest of the participants and stakeholders have already spoken to each other. We are pushed to the back of the queue again, which is very disheartening as well as quite unfair. We have much to offer and much to contribute. It should be borne in mind that our only motivation here is to serve the State and to do so, for the most part, for free. We are a resource which is not being used, and it beggars belief that military authorities and the Department cannot recognise that and use us for what we can provide. Any other country would be crying out for people knocking on the door to try to join up.

I welcome the witnesses. I am delighted to hear first hand the situation they are in. I was one of only two Oireachtas members who attended the symposium in Farmleigh in 2015, and I was very enthusiastic about the White Paper myself, as everybody was. There was much discussion about talking up the Defence Forces over the next ten years, and that included, as far as I was concerned, the Reserve Defence Force, so I am very disappointed to hear how the witnesses' feel. At the time I considered the White Paper very much pro-Reserve.

I know, coming from Athlone where there is a barracks, the benefits that accrue to the community. We had difficulties with flooding last year, and the volunteerism that we had was very important to us. That is fantastic for a community, but the personal benefits that accrue to the Reserve members themselves are second to none. People who come out of the Reserve, and those who stay in it, have discipline and structure in their lives, and it is very beneficial. That in turn comes back into the community as a benefit.

Mr. Gargan spoke about the end of gratuity and the normal Reserve pay. I would like to hear more about those. Is there a possibility that that could be standardised as part of a payroll run with the Permanent Defence Forces so that it is dependable? A mortgage provider will not accept being told that someone might get paid in a couple of weeks time. Is there a way that pay can be standardised for the Reserve members and included in a payroll run with the Permanent Defence Force members?

Deputy McLoughlin asked what kind of funding the Reserve gets and what kind of administrative support exists. If there were three things that the committee could do to help the Reserve members today what would they be?

I thank Mr. Gargan and his members for their service to the State. It does not go unnoticed by us. We are all aware of the wonderful work the Reserve does, and we are grateful for it.

The national guard or the national reserves in most countries as far as I can see work hand in hand with the regular defence forces. This is a very damning report. It is very disturbing to think that our Reserve members would be treated with such contempt. I did not realise that this was going on at all in the Reserve Defence Force.

To follow on from what Senator Lawless has just said, it is 36 years since I was elected to this House and I have never received a more damning report. I am ashamed that I was once a Minister for Defence in the 1990s when the Reserve Defence Force was always a very important aspect of the overall structure. There is no point in condemning beyond what has already been said. What I propose is that we send the exact copy of Mr. Richardson's address to the Minister for Defence and to the Chief of Staff, ask for comments on the points raised and request that they attend before this committee to answer the charges contained in the report.

There is no point in having a meeting in which we can listen to people expressing their disappointment and concern. I am anxious to have the matter rectified and the only way we can do that at this committee is to suggest, as I have done and I hope the committee will support me, that it be brought into the open and that people attend to answer these charges. We could then take a decision on how we make a recommendation on changes should be made. Like Senator Billy Lawless, I am deeply disappointed that there is this feeling. Very serious allegations have been made and they should be fully investigated.

I fully concur with Deputy Seán Barrett's proposal and I am sure there will be unanimous agreement from the committee that we act according to it. We can assure our visitors of that. I ask them to respond to the last group of questions. They mentioned that persons in receipt of a social welfare payment come off it for the week or two they are training. By pure bad administration and lack of interest, they do not receive their payment for a week and there is a delay. The weekly cheques of the officials responsible for that maladministration are transferred electronically to their bank accounts. It is appalling that people on low incomes should be left in that situation in any week of the year, not just at Christmas. It is appalling that there is a delay in paying a person who comes off a low social welfare payment to engage in public service. It is not acceptable in any walk of life or at whatever level within the Department or the Defence Forces that it is allowed to happen. The officials responsible for others not receiving their weekly remuneration were paid. The Department told us in a briefing note that the allocation for paid training in 2016 was €2.15 million, of which only €1.568 million was drawn down, leaving a sum of €500,000. That gave us the impression that the funding allocated had not been drawn down. The Department also stated the delay in recruitment to the Reserve Defence Force might be attributable to the pause in recruitment caused by the emphasis on recruitment to the Permanent Defence Force, but that seems to be a very lame duck excuse. If there is an interest in recruiting, the necessary processes must be gone through, including security clearance. None of us would condone not following processes properly.

The report of the delegates is very disturbing. The Oireachtas does not want to see the Reserve Defence Force move into oblivion. We want to stand by and support it. We want numbers to grow again. It is very disheartening for members if they know that the people in their community do not attach the same high reputational status they had in the past. The least that can be done is restoring that well deserved and well earned reputation.

Mr. Neil Richardson

We have often been criticised and asked if there is an interest in joining the reserve. The figures speak for themselves. In 2014 there were 4,800 applicants and a year later, 5,000. The number of female applicants nearly doubled in that time. They represent two 12-month recruitment periods during which the number of applications made online increased by 1,000, yet the recruitment figures for those who were successful went from 341 to approximately 60. It is not due to lack of interest but to the failure of the Defence Forces to facilitate recruitment.

We used only 55% of our pay budget last year, but what is never spoken about is that when a reservist hits 28 paid days in a year, rigorous control measures are in place to ensure exceeding that number of paid days per year is very difficult and sometimes impossible. If there is a glass ceiling placed on the number of paid days of which a reservist can avail each year, it is not surprising that our ability to utilise the pay budget for training and service is kept artificially low. There is a budget allocation, but it is not provided for us. That glass ceiling needs to be investigated.

Deputy Seán Barrett's proposal that we invite the Minister and the Chief of Staff to appear before us has the unanimous agreement of the committee.

The reports should be sent to the Chief of Staff and the Minister in advance.

They will both be sent this afternoon.

I join Deputy Seán Barrett in his very sensible and reasonable suggestion the reports be forwarded, that comments be sought and that those responsible appear before us as an Oireachtas committee to answer the charges. I am heartened by the response around this table. We are all appalled and disgusted at the way the Reserve Defence Force has been treated and there is no doubt that there will be no organisation left in five to ten years if we continue on this trajectory. It needs to be made clear in the letter to the Minister that this is an immediate concern, not one to be kicked down the road, as it has been in the past few years. He needs to answer for this in the next few weeks, not the next few years.

The Official Report of today's proceedings, when it is available, will be forwarded to the Minister and the Chief of Staff for their attention.

Mr. Eugene Gargan

To follow up on Deputy Lisa Chambers' comment that the Reserve Defence Force will not exist in five or ten years, I argue, without criticism of her, that it is far more urgent and could be expressed in months. The capability intrinsic to reserve elements is withering. We are losing the ability to train personnel because we have not had a pipeline of new volunteers inducted into the Defence Forces and the Reserve Defence Force. Our focus was training and being ready and available to the Defence Forces. These are perishable skills and if we do not have the throughput, we will not have the elements established to train and utilise them. It is absolutely urgent; we are in peril and it is difficult to see us in existence in two years time if immediate action is not taken.

I assure Mr. Gargan and his colleagues in the Visitors Gallery and those in the organisation of the interest of committee members and that we will be proactive on the issue. We will do all we can to assist them. I thank the delegates sincerely for their important presentation which gives us real cause for concern.

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