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Joint Committee on Health debate -
Wednesday, 21 Sep 2022

Issues at the Emergency Department of University Hospital Limerick Raised in the HIQA Report: Discussion

Apologies have been received from Deputy Colm Burke and Senator Frances Black. Before we get into the main item on today’s agenda, minutes of the committee meetings of 21 June 2022; 12 and 13 July 2022; and 16 September 2022 are being circulated by members for consideration. Are they agreed? Agreed.

The purpose of today’s meeting is for the joint committee to consider the serious issues raised in a recent HIQA report in relation to the emergency department at University Hospital Limerick, UHL. This meeting was originally scheduled to take place before the summer recess. To enable the committee to consider the matter, I am pleased to welcome, from the HSE and UHL, Ms Mary Day, national director, acute operations; Dr. Mike O’Connor, national clinical advisor, acute operations; Professor Colette Cowan, chief executive officer, UL Hospitals Group; Professor Brian Lenehan, chief clinical director, UL Hospitals Group; and Ms Maria Bridgeman, chief officer, Mid West Community Healthcare. They are all very welcome to our meeting.

I will read a note on privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such directions. Members again are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses of the Oireachtas or an official either by name or in a such a way as to him or her identifiable.

I would like to invite Professor Cowan to make her opening remarks on behalf of the HSE.

Professor Colette Cowan

I thank the committee for the invitation to meet with it. I am joined by colleagues today, as outlined, Ms Mary Day, national director of acute operations; Dr. Mike O'Connor, national clinical advisor, acute operations; Professor Brian Lenehan, chief clinical director, UL Hospitals Group; and Ms Maria Bridgeman, chief officer, Mid West Community Healthcare.

I am sorry we were unable to attend this hearing in July, as Professor Lenehan and I were on sick leave. We thank members for their understanding, as we both felt it was important that we should make ourselves personally available to the committee.

At the outset, I wish to acknowledge the main findings of the HIQA report. I apologise for the distress and the lack of dignity and privacy experienced by far too many patients seeking to access care in UHL over several years and, in particular, over the past 18 months, when we have seen further growth in demand for healthcare following the Covid-19 pandemic. This is not the kind of care environment we wish to provide for the people of the mid-west. It is not for want of effort on the part of the management team or commitment on the part of our staff. This is not the kind of report any hospital manager wishes to read, but we must respond to it and are responding to it.

A detailed compliance plan developed in the wake of the HIQA report includes actions to be taken in the short, medium and long term. The success of this plan hinges on the efforts of all stakeholders - locally and nationally and inside and outside of the hospital system. We are working with the HSE national support team and with Mid West Community Healthcare to do just that - build on existing work and find new ways to meet growing demand. We are improving internal processes and implementing new hospital avoidance initiatives. The solutions also require closer integration with community services as set out in Sláintecare and, more fundamentally, resourcing the heath service in the mid-west in line with the size and the health needs of the population it serves.

We can discuss the way forward in greater detail with members this morning, but it is important we acknowledge the recent past and the local and national factors behind the extraordinary growth in demand on UHL. The mid-west was an early mover on the reconfiguration of acute hospital services from 2009 on.

The Teamwork report on which that reorganisation was based recommended that UHL have 642 inpatient beds to manage the additional acute and emergency medical and surgical patients arising from the changes in Ennis, Nenagh and St. John's hospitals. This did not happen, chiefly because of the global financial crisis and the collapse of our public finances. Today, our inpatient bed capacity is 530, far short of the recommendation and making no allowance for the increase in and rapid ageing of our population in the intervening 13 years.

It is important that I acknowledge the support we have received in developing services, expanding our workforce and strengthening diagnostic capacity - for example, through the addition of a second MRI scanner. I want to acknowledge, in particular, the support of the Government, colleagues who are present and the HSE in increasing our bed capacity in UHL by 98 since the start of the pandemic. We are moving ahead with our next 96-bed block but remain far short of where we need to be. We are still playing catch-up. Until our under-capacity is addressed, we will not eliminate hospital overcrowding in Limerick.

There has been extraordinary demand on our health services over the course of the pandemic and an extraordinary response to that demand. In 2021, the emergency department, ED, at UHL saw a record 76,473 attendances. In the first eight months of this year, we have seen a further increase in ED attendance of 7% and a further increase in ED admissions of 25%. The number of over-75s attending our ED has risen by an even greater proportion. Hospitals around the country are seeing an increase in demand for unscheduled care but the numbers for UHL are exceptional. Between 2019 and 2021, we saw an increase of 20% in inpatient admissions at UHL and an increase of 15% in bed nights.

In 2021 we recruited more than 1,200 staff across UL Hospitals Group, increasing our headcount by 12%. We have hired over 900 additional staff to date this year.

Since the start of the pandemic, we have opened 98 new single-room inpatient beds and ten new critical care beds. We have opened new theatres and a new 24-bed block at Croom orthopaedic hospital. We have run three Covid-19 mass-vaccination centres and the country's only operating field hospital during the course of the pandemic - the intermediate care facility at UL Sport Arena.

We hope the publication of the HIQA report will be the catalyst to address the fundamental mismatch between demand and resources that is particular to the mid-west. We have communicated this in parliamentary replies to committee members over the years. The mismatch is underlined in the findings of an external review on UHL that I commissioned Deloitte to undertake prior to the recent ministerial intervention and which we will shortly publish. Nothing in this review alters the arithmetic, and we estimate that we are currently short of inpatient beds to meet demand.

Next month, the construction of a much-anticipated 96-bed block will commence in UHL, and this will go some way towards alleviating existing bed pressures. This will include 48 new beds and 48 replacement beds. Based on HSE guidance on hospital occupancy of between 80% and 85% and antimicrobial resistance and infection control recommendations on multi-occupancy rooms, UHL will continue to have a shortfall of 87 beds. This does not take into account current unmet demand or projected future healthcare needs. Based on our benchmarking with comparable hospitals, we have a shortage of non-consultant hospital doctors, with at least an additional 68 required.

We recognise that with any increase in resources must come a capacity to adapt and reform. Our region has not been found wanting in this regard. The decision to reconfigure how care was delivered in our hospitals was difficult for our community and staff but was taken in line with national policy and in response to another HIQA report which raised questions of patient safety.

Today, our model-2 hospitals - Ennis, Nenagh and St. John's - are seeing significant increases in activity at their injury units and at their medical assessment units. There has been an increase of 63% in attendances at Ennis medical assessment unit since 2019 and a 47% increase at St. John's medical assessment unit. These alternatives to emergency departments provide safe and efficient services that are highly valued by our community and our GP colleagues. We are also working closely with colleagues in the community to provide alternatives to the emergency department.

The integrated care programme for older persons, ICPOP, is a community-based specialist service that provides rapid access to a multidisciplinarily-delivered comprehensive geriatric assessment for older adults living with frailty or at risk of developing frailty. To date this year, ICPOP teams in Clare, Limerick and north Tipperary have received over 600 referrals. There is currently no waiting list for this service, and service users are typically seen within seven days of a referral.

Almost 10,000 radiology tests were completed up to the end of August 2022 under the direct GP access community diagnostics programme. Community intervention teams based in Clare, Limerick and north Tipperary focus on hospital avoidance and early supported discharge to the person's home. Across Clare, Limerick and north Tipperary, these teams are currently supporting an average of 760 people each month.

Working with the HSE support team, we have refocused on internal processes and on closer integration with the community in recent weeks, resulting in a reduction in the number of admitted patients waiting for a bed and the removal of patients on trolleys on our wards.

This has been achieved through the appointment of additional staff, including a head of operational services for UHL and ten patient flow co-ordinators, of whom six are now in post. In preparation for a challenging winter, we are working with the support team to put in additional medical and allied health professionals in the coming weeks, focused on our emergency departments and on an older persons assessment centre. All of these initiatives reduce demand on acute services and mitigate the risks cited in the HIQA report and which we ourselves have identified and escalated.

Since the HIQA report has caused such concern in our region, I would like to address patient safety and outcomes more generally. The annual audits of hospital mortality published by the National Office of Clinical Audit demonstrate that UHL continues to provide safe, quality services for its patients. Similarly, national audits on stroke, heart attack and so on confirm that outcomes for patients in UHL are in line with those in hospitals around the country and are on par with, if not better than, those in other OECD countries. These audits are published and available for all to read. The outcomes show that, for all the challenges we face in UHL, we provide safe specialist care and that our staff are deeply committed to their patients and quality improvement.

I again apologise to each and every patient who has experienced excessive waiting times or a poor care environment in UHL. We will do all in our power to address the shortcomings identified in the HIQA report. We welcome the support of the national team and the wider recognition that significant resources are required to meet the exceptional health demands in the mid-west.

I thank Professor Cowan. We will now take questions from the members. Senator Conway is leading off.

The witnesses are all very welcome. I thank them for attending in such numbers. This is an extremely important engagement from a mid-western perspective. I acknowledge Professor Cowan's apology to the people who have suffered the indignity of being on a trolley. It is important that the apology was made here today.

We have to be fair in acknowledging the good work being done in Limerick. Nobody would question anybody's commitment, the hard work done or the effort made. We are fully aware of the fact that nobody sitting opposite us wanted to see the circumstances that have existed in the hospital in Limerick for the past several years. Nobody wanted them and nobody wants them to continue.

On the HIQA report and the Deloitte report that Professor Cowan has commissioned, is it fair to say there should have been engagement with the performance management and improvement unit in the Department ahead of a HIQA report? The delegates have been on the ground and know how bad the situation has been. It did not really require HIQA to tell them. Why were they not proactive? Why did it take the Minister to express concerns and send down an expert group for there to be a change to the structures, flows and so on that has resulted in the incremental improvements we are now seeing?

Was it not an issue of concern prior to that and should the hospital group not have reached out and looked for help before the Minister or the HSE sent in the expert group? I am just curious.

Professor Colette Cowan

I thank the Senator for his question and his acknowledgement of the people here who are committed to the service. Regarding the HIQA inspection, HIQA can inspect any facility. Its visit on the day was unannounced, which is correct and right. It chose to visit our emergency department because of the numerous instances of overcrowding figures cited in the media at the time. HIQA did so in the run up to a bank holiday weekend. Its visit was unexpected and we took the report.

We have been proactive for years and have raised repeatedly the issues regarding the growing demand in the region and attendances at our emergency department. The flow is directed there. Extensive work has been done and there has been funding from the Government for community healthcare and the development of those services, which is in its infancy. The Minister took the decision to send in the performance management unit. We have worked closely with the special delivery unit. During my eight years of tenure in UHL, a lot of developments and new staff were put in place and it is a progressive development. What I will do is hand over to-----

But Professor Cowan would acknowledge that as a result of the Minister's intervention and sending down of the specialised team, there are further improvements? Did the hospital group not think a number of years ago that such outside engagement by the HSE at national level would have gleaned benefits before this? Why did it take until now because all of us as elected representatives have been looking for it? The Irish Nurses and Midwives Organisation, INMO, has been calling for it for a long time. Why did the hospital group not reach out and look for that type of assistance earlier?

Professor Colette Cowan

We certainly did reach out for assistance on funding and resources, which we got when the performance management unit came to the hospital.

What I am talking about is the review of the management structure down there and of the patient flow. This is not down to resources; it is down to management.

Professor Colette Cowan

If the Senator allowed me to speak for a moment, that would be helpful.

There is plenty of time.

Professor Colette Cowan

The Senator is asking me now about management and the performance monitoring and improvement unit, PMIU, coming in. I will hand over to Dr. Mike O'Connor, who is the manager from the PMIU, who can speak to that.

Dr. Mike O'Connor

To set the context, the health service has been through an unprecedented challenge over the past couple of years with Covid. To call it an eye of the storm would be fair.

I would agree with that.

Dr. Mike O'Connor

I was a member of the HSE support team that was a collaboration between the PMIU, the community and acute operations who I represent today. As soon as we arrived, it was clear that there was an improvement programme. The hospital recognised it had significant challenges, most of which have been outlined by Professor Cowan, when we arrived on site. We were there for July. Sometimes a fresh pair of eyes helps when it comes what additional things can be done. It was clear as crystal that it was a collaborative effort between the University Limerick Hospitals Group and the community and that they welcomed that support. There is a bit of subjectivity in what I am saying, which is that eye of the storm of piece, in that hospitals were and are recovering from that Covid period. Professor Cowan is very clear about the resource requirements the hospital group has sought successfully on an ongoing basis. The Senator's question is valid. It is about the timing of it. Was it appropriate for the summer? Could it have been earlier? It possibly could have but it depends on us-----

When I talk about it being done earlier, I am talking about a number of years ago. For the past number of years, the hospital in Limerick has had the highest number of trolleys. As the trolley counts in Limerick are among the highest in the country, clearly there was a problem there. Dr. O'Connor is quite right. A fresh pair of eyes is always a good thing but I put it to him that Limerick is the eye in the eye of the storm. That is the perception. I will move on. I want details on weekend cover in the hospital in Limerick. What is the consultant cover in Limerick? Could the witnesses go through it and tell us how it compares with other emergency departments in other parts of the country?

Professor Colette Cowan

I will hand the Senator over to Professor Brian Lenehan, chief clinical director.

Professor Brian Lenehan

If the Senator is referring specifically to the emergency department, as with all emergency departments, the consultant cover in the emergency department is dependent on the current consultant contract. A consultant is on site from 8 a.m. to 1.p.m. He or she does five hours, which would be the same in all emergency departments around the country. Historically, University Hospital Limerick had a very low number of non-consultant hospital doctors, NCHDs, in its emergency department. We have the busiest emergency department in the country with 76,000 presentations. The next highest emergency department when it comes to presentations is the Mater, which has 100% more non-consultant hospital doctors providing a service across the 365 days of the year. That has been highlighted to the-----

Is the consultant cover in the emergency department so low at the weekend that it is putting patient safety at risk?

Professor Brian Lenehan

There are senior decision makers on site. The consultants are on call and available at all times should there be a requirement for their attendance. The number of NCHDs on site at the weekend was something of concern with regard to the number of attendances. It is something we have addressed with the PMIU and we now have approval for an additional 11 registrars and ten senior house officers, SHOs, to staff our emergency department-----

That is great news but how is the recruitment process going?

Professor Brian Lenehan

The PMIU was in with us in recent months, recruitment has commenced and we have commenced interviews so we will increase the number of non-consultant hospital doctors. Those who are at registrar and specialist registrar grade are senior decision makers. We also have approval for two additional emergency department consultants. All of that will benefit.

Is Professor Lenehan worried about the winter? Is he worried about what is going to happen in October, November, December and January?

Professor Brian Lenehan

Winter is challenging for all of us in the health sector; all hospital groups. We have a winter plan in place and have worked with acute operations and the PMIU, as have all hospital groups, to develop our winter plan so we can try to meet the challenges we will face over the winter but trolleys will not disappear overnight.

I accept that. There is a campaign in the mid-west for Ennis to be upgraded to a tier 3 hospital. What is Professor Lenehan's view on that?

Professor Brian Lenehan

That would be a matter for the HSE.

I am asking Professor Lenehan for his view.

Professor Brian Lenehan

I do not believe that our existing model 2 hospitals are in a position to be upgraded to model 3 hospitals. There are a significant infrastructure and staffing requirements and significant capital and resourcing costs. What we need to do is develop our model 2 hospitals, as we have been doing and as Professor Cowan outlined in her opening statement. We need to deliver the capacity and resources needed in UHL. That is how our hospital group operates.

Lastly, in terms of an elective hospital in Limerick, does Professor Lenehan think there should be-----

Senator Conway asked a series of questions. If he is asking questions, he needs to give time for the witnesses to respond.

It is just about an elective hospital.

I will move on to Deputy Quinlivan.

I welcome the witnesses from UHL. It is good to see such a good crowd here. I know most of them and have tried to deal constructively with them over the past number of years. I put on record my thanks to the staff who work in the hospital from hospital porters to cleaners, those in the kitchens, doctors, non-consultant doctors, management and those who work in administration - everybody who works in that hospital. It is a very difficult environment and I want to put that on record. The hospital has been given a task that is really difficult. I have problems with some of the management and some of the way it works but I believe the hospital has been dealt a hard deck to deal with because the sums do not add up. It must be put on record that we closed three emergency departments. This is the core of what happened. We closed the departments in St John's Hospital, Nenagh and Ennis and tried to integrate everybody into UHL, in what we were told at the time would be a centre of excellence.

Unfortunately, the funding to do that was never delivered. My understanding, from the latest figures I have been given by the HSE and the Minister for Health, is that we are short 200 beds and 68 non-consultant doctors, which is the core of the problem we are looking at. UHL, as Senator Conway has just said, has the highest level of overcrowding by far of any hospital in the State. We are looking at a figure of 13,136 people on trolleys this year to date. We still have three very difficult months to go until the end of the year, so we will potentially hit 16,000 or 17,000, if not more, and I am concerned that the winter will be very difficult for us.

Professor Cowan in her opening statement said that "UHL will continue to have a shortfall of 87 beds" if the HSE delivers the 96-bed unit, which will not be delivered for two years. She also put a line into her statement about the shortage based on comparable hospitals, which should frighten all of us. She is basically saying healthcare need is benchmarked against comparable hospitals. She is actually saying, therefore, that the 96 beds will bring us only to where we are at the minute and will not take account of other stuff coming down the line. We are looking at delivering 48 additional beds in the coming years and we have a trolley crisis now.

What is the Government's plan and what is the HSE's plan? What has the HSE asked the Government to do? I am not too bothered about what has happened - well, I am bothered about what has happened in the past, but it is the past. I want to look at where we are now and where we can get to. I deal with people, as the witnesses all do, every single day in that hospital. I deal with the families in distress. There are incredible waiting times for people. We have had stories of people with dementia exiting the hospital and going missing for a while. I have dealt recently with three families who have had family members with dementia leave the hospital. It is very traumatic for their families and, in fairness, for the staff as well. In Limerick - and I would not be the only person to say this - people are not going to the ED. They are afraid to do so. Older people, especially, do not want to go there because they know they will be there for hours and hours.

What immediate steps are being taken to address the overcrowding in the here and now? The 48 beds, or the 96 beds which, as I said, will deliver 48 beds, while very welcome, will take a couple of years to come, so I want to know what is happening in the here and now. What support does the HSE need from the Government to make an immediate impact on this issue? Do the witnesses think the appropriate level of care can consistently be delivered to those being treated in such conditions?

Professor Colette Cowan

I thank Deputy Quinlivan. We will extend his thanks to the staff, who are fantastic and who do a very difficult job every day.

Once again, we are very clear that we do not support or feel comfortable about patients having to wait in the emergency department, but it is a capacity issue for us. What are our plans? The Deputy is quite right that the 96-bed block will take two years to build, which is quite fast but still too long for us. It will be 48 replacement beds because, as the Deputy will know, we have Nightingale wards, which are not safe, and our outbreaks in the hospital around infection control are, in the main, in those large wards. They are no longer SARI-compliant. The replacement beds are exceptionally important for us. What is the plan? We have looked at our capital development plan. We have also looked at the developments in the community because, heretofore, the societal view has been that everybody comes to the emergency department for treatment and care. The Deputy is quite right that we would all stop and think about whether we should go to an emergency department and whether we want to wait long hours for treatment. However, we are only in the infancy of developing services in the enhanced community care programme, which my colleague, Ms Bridgeman, will speak to. That will create alternatives for older people especially to go elsewhere other than into our emergency department for treatment. It is important to be aware of that. We have to balance that significant budget, and funding has come from the Government into the enhanced community care programme. That is a number of years of project work that will go ahead. UHL, in particular, is a very busy hospital, and all our patients tell us that once they get in, the care is good and they get through the system. It is a matter of getting through the emergency department doors. With the bed capacity issues, we are working towards that. We have done a lot of work in developing the services. It is our view, however, that we need a second 96-bed block. We have started working on that and talking to the system about what that would look like but, again, that would be five to ten years away. What we have to measure under the health population needs, on which a significant work is about to commence, is how many patients will divert from the ED to the enhanced community care programme and how many patients will be in our hospitals getting emergency care. UHL is an emergency care hospital, a complex surgery hospital and a designated cancer centre. Other work will have to be diverted to other areas. It is our view as-----

Sorry. Will Professor Cowan clarify what she is talking about when she talks about other work directed to other areas?

Professor Colette Cowan

I will come to that. It is our view that there should be an elective hospital in the mid-west region. That is the Government's decision. Government policy is for-----

That would be very welcome in the mid-west region, obviously, but, again, it will not solve the problem tomorrow and for the three critical months we are facing into. I want to know what we are going to do. We need exceptional measures for the next three months because the figures we have seen this year already are simply not acceptable. In June, 1,800 people were waiting on trolleys. The witnesses know it will be worse in October, November and December.

Professor Colette Cowan

Yes, of course.

What are we going to do in the here and now? I know there are other things we are looking at like the escalation team around mental health and a pathfinder service being brought in and trialled in UHL, which would be very important. I would do that as fast as possible. That should be an emergency. The Government needs to treat it as an emergency because it is simply not acceptable that people in Limerick and the mid-west region have such long wait times at the hospital. The figure the HSE gave me recently was that 8,000 people were waiting more than 24 hours. What is happening is absolutely criminally negligent. It is not exactly all the HSE's fault, but there is no plan from the Government apart from 48 beds to be delivered in two years' time. Even here Professor Cowan says 87 beds will still be needed, and then with demographic changes the number of older people will have increased as well. Currently, therefore, we will need more than 87 beds.

Professor Colette Cowan

I was answering the Deputy's first question as to what the broad plan is. That is what I was outlining. I will defer to Professor Lenehan to talk to the Deputy about the here and now. As for the elective hospital for the region, the Deputy will know, as do all my colleagues, that when the emergency department is busy the first thing we have to cancel is elective surgery, so then we are looking at waiting lists. There are patients other than the emergency department patients who are at home worried about their surgery, so we invade, for want of a better word, the surgical space with medical patients. We believe we have an opportunity here to allow patients to get their surgery on another site such that we do not have to cancel their appointments. I will defer to Professor Lenehan.

Professor Brian Lenehan

To speak to the here and now, capacity will not come on stream, as Deputy Quinlivan said, for 24 months. What, then, are we doing now to improve the situation with trolleys and overcrowding in our ED? There has been incremental improvement in recent weeks, which has been sustained. That is being achieved in a number of ways. The appointment of a head of service is key because the focus there is on patient flow, on decompressing the ED and on ensuring that all potential discharges are facilitated. We have put in the patient flow co-ordinators, who are working on the ground at ward level identifying patients who can be discharged because once a patient is discharged, that bed has to be cleaned and turned around for a patient to come from the ED. We have enhanced triage in the ED now, with additional nurses in triage and consultant-assisted triage, so the triage times are coming down. Our patient experience times, PETs, are coming down. The number of patients discharged daily has increased, the utilisation of our community beds and contracted beds has increased, the referral rate to rehab has increased, and the number of patients experiencing a delayed transfer of care has come down significantly.

All those small pieces, incrementally, speak to patient flow. They generate capacity within the system, and that is why we see today the number of trolleys that are there compared with the number this day last year. We need to build on that, use the funding we have been provided with to sustain that, use the additional consultants and NCHDs in the emergency department to improve the time it takes to see a doctor and the time it takes to get a test, and look at building on the work that has been done with frailty to the fore and OPTI-MEND, which are two areas that focus on the over-75s and admit fewer patients because there is an alternative whereby they have access to the OPTI-MEND team and the frailty team and can be referred to the ICPOP services in the community. It is therefore a joined-up effort and it is probably ten or 15 small things that will lead to the incremental change.

We need to sustain and drive that. We are doing that with the support of the HSE, its performance management and improvement unit and the staff on the ground supported by the executive management team. We will have people on trolleys but I hope the number will be far less than heretofore. Winter is coming and I do not know what will happen with Covid or flu. All we can do is respond and redouble our efforts. As with Professor Cowan, as chief clinical director, I too want to apologise to patients who have a negative experience in our emergency department. It is not the standard of care we aspire to provide and we will do everything in our power to improve that situation, as we are resourced and facilitated to do.

I welcome everyone from UL Hospitals Group. Given the time constraints, I would be very grateful if the witnesses could move quickly through my questions. What sets the UL Hospitals Group apart from others? Why do we have this HIQA report? Why are we incessantly hearing about the UL Hospitals Group and not Saolta or other groups, whose representative have appeared before this committee?

Professor Brian Lenehan

It comes down to demand capacity. We have a population of 400,000 patients, a singular ED and a hospital that only has 530 beds, which includes 49 paediatric beds. It is a matter of arithmetic. There is a higher demand that we are able to service. Without additional resources and bed capacity, that issue will persist despite all efforts on the part of everybody working hard on the ground. We need to address this matter with short-, medium- and long-term measures, which is what we have done.

Is there another regional hospitals group in the country with a similar population base and similar hospital infrastructure that we in the mid-west could emulate?

Professor Brian Lenehan

University Limerick Hospitals Group is the smallest hospitals group. We have the smallest population and the lowest number of non-consultant hospital doctors, NCHDs, and consultants. These facts conspire to create the current situation. What we have done, as an executive management team with the performance management and improvement unit and the HSE, is look inward at our processes to see how we can perform better with what we have. That is what we are doing.

The UHL emergency department had a record attendance of 76,473 in 2021. Why such high attendance? Repeatedly, we hear management correctly state on radio programmes that there are different pathways for patients to be seen and people do not always have to attend at an emergency department. Will Professor Lenehan explain the reason for the record attendance?

Professor Brian Lenehan

It is down to a lack of alternatives. Other hospital groups have model 3 hospitals and some have model 4 hospitals. They also have private healthcare facilities that have accident and emergency units open. We have an ED and three local injuries units that treat 33,000 patients each year. One in three patients who seek unscheduled care in our hospitals group attend one of our local injuries units. One in four patients, or 100,000 patients out of our total patient population of 400,000, attend either our local injuries units or EDs. It is a volume effect. We are looking at alternatives and what further care primary care, the fledgling private sector, community health networks, pharmacies and out-of-hours GP services deliver. It is a combined effect and all of these factors combined are what deal with the burden. We have one large ED department, which was opened in 2017, and that is where the sickest patients are seen.

Five weeks ago, I accompanied a relative who was attending the UHL accident and emergency unit. People go to reception, are triaged and must then wait for a long time, which I think they have come to expect. Eventually, they are seen in the accident and emergency unit. There is not enough follow-up done in the corridors while people are waiting. Deputies hear this repeatedly from constituents. Charts and sensitive data can be seen by anyone passing by on their way to the loo or shop. Visitors can see people using bedpans. There is no privacy in that environment. There are few people to check on those who are waiting or offer them a cup of tea and slice of toast, something that will perk them up and tide them over. People endure pain as they wait on a trolley to be treated. Very little happens after triage while people wait to be seen. They are left to wallow.

Professor Brian Lenehan

Privacy and dignity are extremely important and we have a focus on them now following the HIQA report. Patients are seen based on the critical nature of their illness using the Manchester triage categorisation. Patients who are triaged category 1 or 2 go straight into the resus area and there is no waiting time. Patients who are triaged category 3 or 4 are deemed to be less urgent cases. Unfortunately, there are always patients presenting who are triaged category 1 or 2. That is what leads to the waits but, as I said, our patient waiting times are reducing.

The way to deal with the issues of privacy and dignity is to not have trolleys. Our ED has 40 designated single assessment bays. If we had attendances that matched our capacity and capacity in the hospital that matched our ability to admit patients and avoided having them boarded in the emergency department, that issue would not exist. It is an area we are focusing on with our nursing and healthcare assistants. We have put a patient advocacy and liaison service in the ED so there are people available to support that element of patient care needs.

The patient advocacy and liaison service needs improvement and we need more of that service.

I compliment all the staff, as have others. We want to hammer home the message that we appreciate the great work done by staff. I know that morale can often be low in the hospitals group when staff hear incessantly on the airwaves about failures or services that do not work. The staff are incredible. Certainly, the staff who cared for my family member recently were incredible.

Where are the staff shortages and what areas need to be built up? The Neurological Alliance of Ireland told the committee that more neurological nurses are needed. We heard about different areas. One of the issues I want to home in on is discharge co-ordinators and the inability to send people home at weekends when they are ready to go home. This happens too often. Two years ago, when a different member of my family was in hospital and ready to go home at 5 o'clock one Friday evening, as the nurses and everyone else on the ward could see, a discharge co-ordinator or consultant could not be found to sign off the discharge until the following Monday or Tuesday. My family member was, therefore, a bed blocker who prevented somebody else on a corridor in the accident and emergency department in need of a bed from being moved to the ward. This is an ongoing problem. How is the out-of-hours discharge of patients dealt with?

The witnesses should not take my critique personally but how can the management group have oversight of what happens in the hospital environment when it is based in an office block located 1.5 km from the hospital? I was a schoolteacher before I became a Deputy and my principal had an office down the corridor. In Garda stations, the superintendent has an office down the corridor. There is no way a management team can manage and oversee an acute hospital environment when based a distance away in an industrial estate. The office must be in the acute environment. I know the UL Hospitals Group has several hospitals. Management cannot be based in an office block located a distance away from where everything is happening. I do not expect management to walk every single ward and check every bed every day but surely managers must be on site, as the HIQA report identified. I am not being personal but management staff must be located in the hospital.

Professor Colette Cowan

I will answer the Deputy's question first before handing over to Professor Lenehan. The Deputy raised this issue previously in a parliamentary question and at another meeting that I did not attend. We were on site in University Hospital Limerick when I first started eight years ago and we were there for four years. We moved out because clinical teams had no space to work out of and we took up an entire floor of an administration block while clinicians and consultants had no space. That is why we made the move.

I remind the Deputy that I am the CEO of the UL Hospitals Group and I run six hospitals, not just University Hospital Limerick. We are on site all of the time. All of my team go up and down to University Hospital Limerick three or four times a day. We hold our meetings there in the boardroom. All of the staff know me personally by name and we walk through the system. With all due respect, it is unfair to compare us with a principal in a school because we are responsible for six hospitals. I am equally required at hospitals in Nenagh and Ennis, the maternity hospital, Croom and St. John's hospitals.

We have operational directorate structures in our UHL site. Management teams at the most senior level run that site. We also have a head of service in there now. HIQA did not say in its report that the CEO and the hospitals group were off site.

They did not, but they found deficiencies in management. The captain of any ship should be on the ship, not based remotely from it.

I will move on to the elective hospital, where things are going in the future. Ward 8D, where I recently visited someone, is incredible. It is the future, and it is where we all want to get to. We are supportive of this. The ward is what we hope the new block will look like. In terms of the elective hospital, the University of Pittsburgh Medical Centre, UPMC, has planned a private medical centre in Coonagh, right on the Clare-Limerick border. What engagement has the HSE had with the latter? Paul Reid and Robert Watt informed the committee a few weeks ago that there is no need for an elective hospital in the mid-west region. The witnesses are telling us that there is a need for one. Can the HSE categorically state that such a facility is needed, indicate where it should be located and inform us how it is making that happen?

Professor Colette Cowan

I thank the Deputy for that important question. It is our view that we need an elective hospital. We are asking the Government to review its policy on that. There is a health planning department that looks, in the context of population health, at where these elective hospitals should go. It is beyond my brief to make the decision in that regard. It is a decision for Government.

Are Paul Reid and Robert Watt with the UL Hospitals Group on this?

Will the Deputy please let Professor Cowan give an answer. We are running out of time.

Professor Colette Cowan

Representatives from UPMC have visited to the mid-west region. They have engaged with us on health data as to whether they should build it. They are working, in the main, with Limerick City and County Council because it is a regeneration programme and a development of housing, as well as a hospital system. They have also engaged with the board of St. John's Hospital on how that would work. St. John's is also a very important hospital in our region. We, as a team in the public sector, are interested in an elective hospital. We are not interested in who builds it or where it is. Equally, an elective hospital could be put at St. John's. We are interested in patients getting access to care and that the model would be developed in the region. UPMC has its own business. We are not involved in that.

I thank Professor Cowan for all her engagement today. It is really appreciated.

Before we move on to Deputy Kenny, I have a question on the population issue. Professor Cowan referred to figures for beds and so on. Has the population expanded much since those figures were published? Perhaps Professor Cowan could give us a sense of the challenge facing us.

Professor Colette Cowan

I will defer to my colleague. From population planning, we know that we have an ageing population in the mid-west region. We have some of the highest numbers of people over the age of 85, which is a great thing. We also have issues regarding social deprivation and the care of people living in our city area. We have a very affluent society too. There are demands on the health service for that. We also have a GP service with very good GPs who are working very long hours. They can see the demand. We see it in our emergency department every day. It is wonderful to see people in their 90s and older coming into hospital for treatment. It is also wonderful that they are living longer, but there really is a huge surge in persons over 75 and those over 85 requiring our services. They are quite frail. Perhaps Professor Lenehan will add to that.

Professor Brian Lenehan

The demographic growth will be in line with demographic growth across the country, but what we have and what we face is an unmet need that is currently there. We face a delay in care. This has been there for the past number of years as a result of Covid. Based on the HSE's planning, we know that we are going to have a deficit of another number of beds going forward even when we get to where we need to be. At some stage, we need to try to future-proof the service in order that we do not find ourselves back to square one in ten or 15 years' time. The longer we live, the frailer we get. There are more healthcare needs for that population. It is the same population but they have multiple morbidities. They are living longer. They are living well for longer because of the interventions they are having with hospitals, GPs and community health networks. It is about funding that and putting the capital infrastructure in place to be able to serve that into the future. This is what we will need after the next bed block that Professor Cowan alluded to.

I thank all of our guests for attending this morning. My first question relates to the HIQA visit that took place on 15 March. Will the witnesses paint a picture of what HIQA saw that day? I understand that the witnesses said it was a very busy day. Obviously, emergency departments have become stretched to capacity, particularly in the past couple of years. Will the witnesses paint a picture of what the HIQA inspectors saw on that day?

Professor Colette Cowan

Perhaps Professor Lenehan will take that.

Professor Brian Lenehan

HIQA saw pictures that none of us would want to see. They came to the emergency department with a significant number of patients in the waiting area who had waited some time for triage. Our emergency department is split into zones. Zone A is for ambulatory patients who are managed as category three or four. Zones B and C are still Covid pathways. Patients who have any symptoms or signs of Covid, or who have any risk of infectious disease, be that CPE, C. diff, or MRSA, are all in zones B and C. When the inspectors entered, they saw 49 or 50 trolleys, as well as the cubicles at capacity. Those patients who required isolation were in the cubicles and the remainder of the patients were on trolleys in the emergency department. The inspectors came in and looked at the number of nurses that were there. Through vacancies and short-term illness and last-minute sickness, there was a deficit in the number of nurses available to look after those patients. We had redeployed additional nurses, and we do have healthcare attendants who also support our nurses in the care of our patients. This all challenged the emergency department. It is something we have been working tirelessly to try to address. As I said earlier, with the incremental changes we have been making in the past two to three months we have seen a reduction in the number of trolleys. It is not our aspiration to treat patients on trolleys. The inspectors also saw trolleys on our wards. The challenge in our emergency department was such that we had patients on trolleys on our wards. We have not had a patient on a trolley on our wards for the past six weeks. That was one of the first steps we took. We are in a better position than we were, and we will continue to work to improve that for the care of our patients and for the health and well-being of our staff.

Was that day the exception?

Professor Brian Lenehan

That was an exceptionally challenging day.

Obviously, the hospital has addressed the outstanding issues. What happened would not be acceptable in any kind of medical setting. The HSE representatives do not want to be here to explain the historical issues in relation to resources in those hospitals and so on.

With regard to retention of staff, especially in the past four years, how many staff has the HSE retained? Is retention a major issue in the context of the emergency department in Limerick?

Professor Colette Cowan

In the emergency department, we have 120 nursing whole-time equivalent staff working there and we have 29 healthcare assistants. During the pandemic we were in a good buyers' market in the sense that people were not emigrating. They were cocooning and working in the health service. In recent weeks, however, we have noticed that more of the younger staff are leaving to travel the world or to emigrate. Equally, 38 staff left the emergency department last year. From exit interviews, we know that 17 of those resigned to work elsewhere, for family reasons and for travel, and 29 were promoted. Based on their good skill base, they applied for jobs, were promoted internally and across the community to other jobs, which is within the gift. We see this happening, and especially as we try to build up the service in the mid-west region. Staff can choose to move across the community to work with my colleagues, for example, because it suits their lifestyle or it is a promotion. Retention was not an issue during the pandemic, which was probably the only bonus out of it. We are very glad to say that in the University of Limerick, where our students are trained, each year our student nurses take up permanent posts with us. That is a real positive. We offer them permanent jobs but they are a mobile workforce.

We also offer them career breaks so they can go and travel and come back to us eventually to work and stay in the mid-west. Each year, 52 student nurses qualify and come to work in the services across the group. We have seen a surge, as I said, in people planning to do other things with their lives, and some retirements as well, after the pandemic. We have seen some senior consultant colleagues taking a decision to bow out and have a better life.

The impact of the shortage of junior doctors has been flagged in the past number of years. That is not isolated to any ED or medical setting. At the moment I think there are 900 vacant consultant posts in the Irish health service. That is a huge void that will have a detrimental effect on our health service. On junior doctors in UHL, it cannot be done overnight but what effect is the shortage having on day-to-day services?

Professor Colette Cowan

Our non-consultant hospital doctors, NCHDs, or junior doctors, are one of the busiest workforces in UL Hospitals group. They do sterling work and work extensive hours to provide care to patients. We are clear we are underresourced to allow them to do their job. I will hand over to Professor Lenehan to speak about our numbers and our plans to assist our wonderful workforce.

Professor Brian Lenehan

Like Professor Cowan I compliment our NCHD workforce whose members do Trojan work on a daily basis. We have grown the number of NCHDs significantly in the past four years. We came from a very low base because of how we were funded heretofore. At the moment we have 421 NCHDs and 71 interns, which makes 492. As of yesterday we have 32.5 vacancies, which is 8%. There are a number of reasons for that. There are issues with work visas, onboarding and having applicants go through clearance and checks. This time of the year would normally have the highest number of vacancies because we changed over a significant workforce in July. We know where the problems are, including onerous rotas, the European working time directive, etc. We are working with the HSE and the performance management and improvement unit, PMIU, to bid for additional resources because you want an energetic, enthusiastic workforce of people who want to come to work rather than having them dreading coming in because they are facing into something they do not want to. We are working hard to improve the working conditions, terms and conditions and hours of work for our NCHDs because in the medical model they are the boots on the ground every day, together with their consultants who are the backbone. We need to do everything we can to improve their working conditions and terms and conditions. We need to encourage them to work in UHL and provide an environment they will be proud of and something they want to contribute to in the future.

My final question is on planning. When you see the HIQA report it is stark about the hospital and the ED. As professionals who work in that environment it is quite embarrassing in some ways. These issues can sometimes be outside the remit of a particular hospital and as I said this goes back to historical cutbacks and so forth. If there was a message our UHL guests wanted to convey to the HSE about the mid-west area generally and addressing the issues there, what would they say to ensure people seeking medical treatment not being treated as well as they should be never happens again?

Professor Brian Lenehan

We need to continue in the direction we are going. We need to highlight to our colleagues in the acute hospital division in the HSE what we need to justify those needs and to have it at all times focused on patient care and the health and well-being of our staff. It is for us to advocate for our patients and our staff. We are doing that and are being heard. Things will improve the more we are heard.

I welcome our guests. I thank the entire hospital group and the community care team lead by Ms Bridgeman for the great work they do. I put my thanks to staff and management alike on record.

We are here because of the HIQA report. At the time the report came out it was stark. In my role as a public representative for Limerick I felt the hospital required assistance. It was not a criticism but we have been battling this for years. I have been at this since 2007 so I am aware of the detail. My questions are directed to Dr. O'Connor. Does he head up the PMIU?

Dr. Mike O'Connor

No, I work with HSE acute operations. The piece we did in Limerick was collaborative between the performance improvement unit and also HSE operations and the community. It was a team that was looking at performance improvement, our own experience and maybe my own personal experience of being a-----

In the limited time I have, I want to put particular questions. What did the PMIU find?

Dr. Mike O'Connor

That there was a problem, which we have already described. It was a mismatch between demand and capacity. In addition to that there was a very enthusiastic management team and also a very motivated workforce. There was a congestion issue. At any one time there were probably plus 90 patients in hospital and we entered into a four-week plan of decongestion.

What does Dr. O'Connor mean by "plus 90"?

Dr. Mike O'Connor

There is a bed capacity in the hospital of 530 so at any one time there were probably an additional 90 patients on the hospital site in various locations.

These were patients who required beds, which were not available.

Dr. Mike O'Connor

Correct.

The PMIU went in on 22 June. Is it still in there?

Dr. Mike O'Connor

No. It went in on 22 June initially for a three-day visit and then we went from July for a four-week period. That was our primary engagement, so we were onsite for four solid weeks and working collaboratively with acute hospitals and the community. What is happening now is there is a secondary engagement, a site visit planned and we have had a number of calls.

When is the site visit planned for?

Dr. Mike O'Connor

It was due to be tomorrow but this has taken over.

Will it take place tomorrow?

Dr. Mike O'Connor

No, because of this meeting.

When will it take place?

Dr. Mike O'Connor

Next week.

What will be the purpose of that site visit?

Dr. Mike O'Connor

There was a suite of actions the performance team had recommended for the site and it is to support and assist in the implementation of those-----

When were they recommended?

Dr. Mike O'Connor

They were recommended all the way through. With the visit we had a close-out on the fourth week and there was a defined suite of actions that I am aware-----

That was at the end of July.

Dr. Mike O'Connor

Yes.

The PMIU is visiting UHL for a site inspection next week.

Dr. Mike O'Connor

I hope so, yes.

It is to check the improvements have taken place.

Dr. Mike O'Connor

Check and support might be a better way of saying it.

Is Dr. O'Connor confident the required improvements have taken place?

Dr. Mike O'Connor

On the evidence on the unscheduled care performance we can see already the situation in UHL this morning is significantly different from what we found in July. We are also confident that combined with a focus on UHL and the community, there is a refocusing happening around-----

Has the PMIU looked at a winter plan?

Dr. Mike O'Connor

Yes.

Have the resources for that been defined?

Dr. Mike O'Connor

Yes. I should say that must be submitted to the Department.

When must UHL submit that, Professor Cowan?

Dr. Mike O'Connor

UHL and the CHO have submitted their plans already.

So the HSE is waiting.

The public in Limerick and the mid-west look at one key statistic, which we all do and that is the trolley count. The HSE may disagree with the INMO figures but that is what we follow. When I perused the INMO figures, I discovered that since 22 June the figures have improved although not initially. The figures were quite good up to the end of August but since then, UHL has consistently had the highest trolley count. There have been, on average, 64 beds and trolleys since 29 August. Of the 17 days on which there was a trolley count, UHL had the highest trolley count for 15 of those days and yesterday, 20 September, there were 62 patients on trolleys. I looked at the comparable figures for last year and discovered that the trolley counts were lower this time last year so I have a question for Dr. O'Connor, Professor Cowan and Professor Lenehan. How does the HSE propose to deal with the fact that the figures are higher now than at the same time last year as we go into the winter period?

Dr. Mike O'Connor

We have to be careful about misinterpreting that a four-week intervention is going to improve the situation for the mid-west, the South-Southwest Hospital Group, Saolta or any other hospital group. This is a wicked problem that has been in our health service for 15 years or more. It is an incremental series of improvements that obviously are programmed and well worked out-----

The PMIU team are the experts. If the PMIU goes in and says everything is being done, then I expect whatever winter plan submitted by UHL would be funded. There must be a reason that UHL's numbers are so high all of the time. Even with the PMIU on site, the trolley counts are still high, which fundamentally tells me that there is a problem with resources whatever way one wants to look at the issue.

Dr. Mike O'Connor

I would agree with the Deputy.

Can Professor Cowan or Professor Lenehan tell me what the HSE has requested for the winter plan? The figures show that the UHL trolley count is growing and is higher than last year. We are facing into a really difficult winter in Limerick and the mid-west. As we do not want to consistently be the highest, what is required in the short term?.

Professor Brian Lenehan

In the short term, we require additional resources to address the capacity in the ED.

That is an abstract answer so please define what is meant by "additional resources".

Professor Brian Lenehan

Part of our plan is to open a specific unit in the ED that will deal with the over-75s as an admission avoidance pathway.

How quickly can that be done?

Professor Brian Lenehan

The unit is due to open, we hope, in mid-October.

Professor Colette Cowan

In mid-October.

Professor Brian Lenehan

So what we know from that is if one enters that workstream as an over-75-year-old person, then there is a 60% chance of being sent home. Additional NCHDs and nurses are all focused on treating the patient.

What about capacity?

Dr. Mike O'Connor

Capacity is infrastructure so capacity takes time to build.

Are there vacant beds in any of the hospitals in the UL Hospitals Group at this moment in time?

Dr. Mike O'Connor

We do not run vacant beds.

Are there any wards closed at the moment?

Professor Colette Cowan

St. John's has a ward closed due to an outbreak but that issue will be resolved.

Dr. Mike O'Connor

Yes.

Professor Colette Cowan

That happens. The situation waxes and wanes since Covid-19.

How many beds are involved?

Professor Colette Cowan

St. John's surgical floor is closed so that means 24 beds.

How long will that last?

Professor Brian Lenehan

Until the outbreak is closed out by the infection prevention and control team, IPCT.

That is a lot of beds.

Professor Brian Lenehan

Yes.

How high is the rate of absenteeism in the UL Hospitals Group at present?

Professor Brian Lenehan

I cannot give the Deputy a figure off the top of my head.

I have a very open mind about elective services. We need elective beds. St. John's is in the middle of the city, has a 90-bed Nightingale ward and the hospital has the capacity to possibly increase that number to 150 beds, which would mean 60 additional new beds. The UPMC is an other option. Has the HSE had discussions about the UPMC and St. John's? Is the HSE open to St. John's playing a role in delivering additional elective beds?

Professor Colette Cowan

I have met the board of St. John's on the matter and will meet it again in October.

Professor Colette Cowan

We did a plan initially with St. John's for 90 beds. The then Minister for Health, Deputy Harris, visited the hospital and increased the number of beds to 120. Now the number is 150 beds in the latest strategy for the hospital. The issue has to be resolved. If funding does come for St. John's, then it is how one builds on that historical site because the walls of Limerick go through it.

Is the HSE open to the proposal?

Professor Colette Cowan

Yes.

The HSE's submission is littered with references to reconfiguration. While that was Government policy, it was not Government policy to close three EDs and leave only one. There were 35 ED beds between the hospitals of UHL, Ennis, Nenagh and St. John's and overnight, the number was reduced to 17 ED beds. That was not policy. There were to be 136 co-location beds on the grounds of UHL. It was not policy to close the other EDs before the co-location beds were built. We have played catch-up ever since, so let me put the record straight. Reconfiguration in health is fine but we went from four EDs to one ED, so capacity reduced from 35 ED beds to 17 ED beds. These were local decisions that were made at the time so I want to see the following.

In terms of whatever submission that the HSE has submitted seeking resources, we deal with people on the ground so we know that the trolley count and the number of people on trolleys must be reduced to a manageable level. The trolley counts are growing at the moment. Whatever resources are required, and if the PMIU has been in and is saying that everything that can be done is being done, then the HSE must pony up with the money for UHL and the group to ensure that we can get the services, including community care in terms of stepdown. We, as public representatives, must ring the hospitals too much because people are approaching us. Last night, I was rung about an elderly man who had been left on a trolley for two days although he was looked after. I accept there are capacity issues but if resources are required I would expect, Dr. O'Connor, that the PMIU and the HSE will provide those resources. Yes, we need extra elective capacity. Can Professor Cowan tell me how many Nightingale beds are still in UHL?

Professor Colette Cowan

There are 96 Nightingale beds still in use.

If the HSE builds a 96-bed block then thereafter, does every new block that is built contain new beds?

Professor Colette Cowan

New beds in single-room facilities. The second 96-bed block would be comprised of new beds.

So there will be 48 beds but one is still short 87 beds. Will building a second 96-bed block bring the number up to the 642 that is sought?

Professor Colette Cowan

We are up to the numbers we need but we still have to profile out for the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform.

Therefore, every bed after the new 96-bed block is built will be a new bed.

Professor Colette Cowan

Yes.

I thank Professor Cowan and thank her for all of the work.

My apologies for being obliged to opt out and I welcome our witnesses.

There has been a clear request for resources and I believe that forward planning is part of what I, as a member of this committee, view to be necessary. The HSE has received a memorable budget in terms of what it proposes to spend in the current year. What more is required? Has the HSE managed to quantify that? Is what the HSE requires now in addition to the existing budget or is it a specific request from the existing budget, which can be accommodated?

Professor Colette Cowan

Regarding the funding model, we go into the Estimates process each year around what funding is required. The Deputy is quite right that significant funding has been invested in the health service over the last two years. However, if one drills into that one will note that the funding was mainly spent on revenue, the development of State services, personal protective equipment, PPE, for staff to keep them safe during the pandemic and a lot of funding went into the Covid-19 pandemic funding, so it did not have cause and effect on other developments in the service.

I am accompanied by Ms Mary Day, who is the new national director of acute hospitals in the HSE. She is looking at the whole capital process at the moment. She can talk to how we pitch in for the development of capital capacity builds and what we need there from a budget perspective.

As a hospital group, it is our brief to inform the acute hospitals and offer estimates, and they then take it to the Government, where it is decided what funding is assigned. I ask Ms Day to comment.

Ms Mary Day

In regard to the resources that have gone in, the winter plan is at its finalisation stage, so additional resources have gone into that winter plan which we know we require. In regard to capital and infrastructure, Ms Cowan has highlighted during the meeting that there is a mismatch of demand and capacity, which I would argue there is across the health system when we look at other groups and hospitals. What bears looking at is the whole health planning piece of work, looking at demographics, profiling, increased demand and where we need to develop additional capacity. That is all work in progress.

In regard to immediate additional resources, I have been in the service for a number of years, like Professor Cowan, and I am just coming into this role. I can tell the committee that the summer we have experienced has been as bad as any winter when we look at the increased activity numbers. Attendances are up 5.2% when compared to 2019 and we look especially at the increase for those aged over 75, where that mismatch of demand and capacity becomes more stark each year.

What is the cause of that? Why is there a mismatch of demand and capacity if the demand is known or anticipated and there is an unprecedented budget in terms of the funding available? Why can those two not be matched more carefully?

Ms Mary Day

As Professor Cowan mentioned earlier, what we have gone through in the last two years with Covid has been a huge disrupter. What we are seeing now in the system is that there is huge pent-up demand coming through, given populations may have waited longer to attend and there is a higher acuity level. It is an exercise that we need to do on a yearly basis in regard to recalibrating our demand and capacity modelling. We know the population is getting older and we are seeing increases of population in different areas.

How often has demand and capacity been matched previously? How often is it reviewed?

Ms Mary Day

A bed capacity review was done in 2018 by the Department of Health. Coming out of Covid, that probably needs an additional review. At group level, being a group chief executive myself, and even at the level of hospital chief executive, I know that would be done in regard to looking at one's own demographics, population and system. That will be continuously done, as Professor Cowan has done, and it would then be fed into the system.

Is adequate recognition for the region being granted from the HSE, given it is not exactly in the Pale in so far as management is concerned? How is that working out? On the provision of Sláintecare and its anticipated impact on the regions, is Ms Day satisfied with the degree to which her region is going to receive instant consideration at all times, whether or not that is successful?

Ms Mary Day

Is the Deputy referring to the new regional health grouping?

Ms Mary Day

There is a separate piece of work ongoing in that regard. We are collaborating through acute operations and through the groups, but it is being facilitated with separate streams in regard to looking at the regions, the demographic and the population. That is a whole stream of work that is ongoing in parallel with our job, which is running the service and delivering the services. We do feed into it, however.

Ms Day referred to those two strains running together in parallel without impacting negatively or otherwise on each other. Some of us, by the way, put a lot of time and effort into ensuring that the regions received fairer consideration in terms of reallocation of funding. Not everybody was in support of that but a number of us on this committee were strongly supportive of it. The opposition seemed to come from unseen sources. To what extent has the group been able to avail of the allocation of moneys on an ongoing basis in line with its requirements without having to go to extraordinary ends to achieve that? Does it work?

Ms Mary Day

In terms of the regional piece, whole-population health and the funding model, that is a piece of work that I have not personally been involved in, certainly with regard to acute operations. As Professor Cowan mentioned, we are going through the estimates process and we are finalising the winter plan to secure the funding that we require to continue the existing level of services and also for new services as they are required.

A few years ago, there were severe and acute problems with waiting lists in that area and emergency measures were taken. It was assumed that they had been resolved to some extent and then along came Covid. During that period, were capital funds used for current expenditure purposes and if so, to what extent?

Ms Mary Day

I might refer that to Professor Cowan.

Professor Colette Cowan

I will hand over to Professor Lenehan to talk about our waiting lists and to answer the Deputy’s question.

Professor Brian Lenehan

With regard to waiting lists, funding has been provided for waiting list initiatives, be that the advanced clinical prioritisation process, Safety Net 1, 2, 3 and 4, or the National Treatment Purchase Fund. A significant volume of patients has been seen through these initiatives, which has led to a reduction in the overall waiting lists for UL hospitals. Our waiting list today is better than it was 12 months ago.

Professor Brian Lenehan

It is better by 7%, I believe. We have 42,000 patients waiting in UL hospitals for their first appointments. We have targets from the acute hospitals division in the HSE that are targeting those waiting more than 12 months and those waiting more than 18 months, and we are working very hard to reach those targets. They are challenging but we have a scheduled care department whose focus is the outpatient waiting list and, indeed, the inpatient and day case waiting list. There is a concerted effort to address these and funding has been provided.

Sufficient funding has been provided, I am informed.

Professor Brian Lenehan

Sufficient funding has to date been provided for us to do what we are tasked with doing.

I ask the witnesses to identify a single issue apart from the need to add additional beds and so on. I remember that we were told some years ago there were 5,000 beds too many in the country and they had to be removed as a matter of urgency in order to concentrate on the specialist work that was to be done. We then heard in recent times there were 5,000 too few beds in the country and they needed to be increased and enhanced. I accept that, as I am a student of the latter theory. The question is whether the witnesses are satisfied that sufficient urgency is being applied to the provision of those extra beds now required.

Professor Colette Cowan

The 96-bed block is starting and the sod turning will be some time in October. That is a two-year plan so we cannot rush that any further with the construction teams building it. On capital, we have submitted for a second 96-bed block. That will go to the board of the HSE and will be discussed at Government level under the new planning and capital development heading. At that point, we will have our work done and that will be submitted, but we cannot go any faster with any of that, unfortunately.

We are the second busiest emergency department in the country. What is of significance is that we are the receiver of more emergency ambulances than the next-busiest hospital in the country, on average 400 a month more, which is a lot of emergency ambulances. This indicates that patients are coming to the right place for their emergency treatment, into the resuscitation unit for emergency care. Unfortunately, this leads to other people having to wait long periods in the ED for less urgent care. What we try to do is promote other options for them, such as our local injuries units or medical assessment units, the GP service or pharmacist expertise in respect of keeping them out of the ED. Many people wait who are not as high acuity as the high numbers that are brought in by the ambulance service.

We have the best turnaround time in the country for the ambulance service. We have to be positive about certain things.

We have the best emergency department facility in the country from an infrastructural point of view as well as the best critical care block.

I thank Professor Cowan.

I welcome the witnesses. I take it that Professor Cowan is the most senior manager present.

Professor Colette Cowan

Indeed.

Then I will put my questions to her, if she does not mind. If I need a response from someone else, I will ask for it.

I visited the hospital some time ago and we had a meeting, which Professor Lenehan attended as well, where we touched on some of these issues. Will Professor Cowan speak to us about any differential in the profile of the patients passing through the hospital's doors? Has the hospital more patients with a higher acute need or more older patients compared with other regions? If so, how can the hospital quantify that?

Professor Colette Cowan

Regarding our emergency department, there are differentials. I have mentioned the high level of emergency conveyancing of ambulances bringing emergency admissions - it is the highest in the country - to the emergency department in Limerick. Equally, we are seeing a higher acuity level in older persons, particularly over-75s. They are quite frail, and we have put in place an OPTI-MEND team to look after them. We have frailty at the front door, which is why we are opening a specific unit for older persons.

It is a new emergency department access route for over-75s.

Professor Colette Cowan

Yes.

Professor Colette Cowan

It will be an assessment area.

There is a quantifiable difference in the types of patient, the needs, the age demographics and so on that places an additional burden on the hospital's capacity.

When submitting parliamentary questions to a hospital or hospital group, it is unusual for it to reply saying that it needs more capacity. I do not believe that any other hospital group does it. I imagine that the University Limerick Hospitals Group does it because of the difficulties and challenges it faces, not just within University Hospital Limerick, although we cannot divorce what is happening there from the wider mid-west that it services. What is the overall group's request for bed capacity? What is the established deficit of acute inpatient beds across the group?

Professor Colette Cowan

The Deputy will see the figure in my opening statement. It is 87.

Is that across the group?

Professor Colette Cowan

At the UHL site.

Consultants have been mentioned. What is the deficit in the number of consultants across the group?

Professor Colette Cowan

It stands at 38.

Is there a deficit in surgical theatre capacity?

Professor Colette Cowan

We are looking at the efficiency of theatres in UHL. As we hire consultants, which will be great, there will be a knock-on effect of them needing additional staff and theatre suites from which to operate. As the Deputy will see from our waiting list information, we use five initiatives and outsource a great deal of work. We have 13 old theatre suites, which are at maximum capacity all of the time. As we hire more consultants, especially surgeons, I imagine-----

More suites will be needed.

Professor Colette Cowan

Yes, especially in our-----

That will be in the future. As the group hires more consultants, there will be an obvious increase in demand for surgical capacity.

Is there a deficit in diagnostics?

Professor Colette Cowan

In recent years, diagnostics have developed well. We were fortunate to put new specialist registrars who are senior registrars, on a training programme. There are nine of them, with that number increasing to 13. They do a great deal of work in the diagnostics realm. A large amount of diagnostics is done in the region. We have installed a second MRI machine, which also serves GPs in terms of access to CAT scans and other diagnostics. These registrars do a great deal of work every day and their numbers have increased. In the past month, three of them have retired at consultant level, which has left us needing to replace those posts.

We know that there is a need for an additional 87 beds and 38 additional consultants and we may need to start planning for more surgical theatre capacity. Diagnostics are okay, but I imagine that, as in any hospital, an increase in capacity in that regard would benefit the increased bed capacity. If all of that were put in place, is Professor Cowan confident that the group could turn around the waiting times in emergency departments as well as the overall waiting times? I am looking at the inpatient and outpatient waiting lists across the group. It stands at just over 50,000, which is high compared with other groups. Is the management team confident that, if the requested capacity that Professor Cowan spoke about was put in place, it would address the problems and reduce waiting times? I will address other issues in a moment.

Professor Colette Cowan

The straight answer is "Yes". It would make a significant difference.

I will turn to what may be a more difficult question for our witnesses, but we need to have an honest conversation about the management of the hospital. I wish to pay tribute to the staff in the hospital and the entire management team. The witnesses would be as disappointed as anyone else in the long waiting times and some of the stories coming out of UHL, particularly about older people staying on trolleys for more than 24 hours. Our job is to ensure that patients are fairly represented and to put honest questions to the witnesses. There are obvious questions for the HSE and the Minister as regards capacity. It is our job as politicians to ensure that hospitals have capacity.

I am looking at some of the failings outlined in the HIQA report. The witnesses might be able to assist me and say what changes they believe they can make and whether they believe that management is responsible in part for some of the failures. There was partial compliance with management arrangements to support the delivery of safe and reliable healthcare. Who was responsible for that in the first instance? From my reading of the report, that is management. Are there failings in management that have led to HIQA saying that the hospital is only partially compliant in that regard?

Professor Colette Cowan

The Deputy asked whether I was the senior person. I am the accountable officer for the UL Hospitals Group. I do not believe that there are failings of management in UL Hospitals Group. "Management" is a broad-stroke name and there are many staff who work in management roles within the hospital system. On the day that HIQA arrived to conduct its unannounced inspection, the emergency department was exceptionally busy, we had Covid circulating and a number of staff went out quickly that morning, even in the half hour that HIQA was in the emergency department, which left-----

I must interject. The HIQA inspection happened on a particular day and Professor Cowan's response is about how challenging that particular day was for the hospital, but we know that many days are challenging for UHL. We can see that from the trolley count and the waiting figures.

I will move on to a second finding. The group was non-compliant in terms of planning, organising and managing the workforce to achieve high-quality and safe healthcare. This is a management issue. If the group is lacking resources, that would make compliance more difficult, but planning, organising and managing the workforce rests with management.

The dignity, privacy and autonomy of patients should be promoted, but I heard one elderly lady, whose husband unfortunately passed away in the hospital, speaking on RTÉ about how long he had stayed on a hospital trolley and the lack of dignity. Basic measures should be put in place in any hospital to ensure that there is proper dignity and respect for patients, but the hospital was non-compliant in this regard once again. I will reinforce what "non-compliant" means in terms of the grading system. It means that "the relevant national standard has not been met, and that this deficiency is such that it represents a significant risk to people using the service". The hospital was also non-compliant in its protection of users from risk of harm associated with the design and delivery of healthcare services.

Given that HIQA was clearly pointing to failures in management, planning and delivery, I would hope that the management of the hospital group would at least take some responsibility for some of those failures. I know that there are capacity problems and I am supportive of new capacity being put in place, but people listening in Limerick and the wider mid-west who use these services would like to hear from the management that it accepts some responsibility for some of the failures outlined by HIQA. If the witnesses do not believe that they are responsible for any of these failures, that is their view and they might articulate it. I will give the final word to Professor Cowan because this is important to the people who use the hospital's services.

Professor Colette Cowan

To be clear, I did not say that I did not feel responsible or accountable. As the CEO, I am the accountable officer.

There are certain areas I can control and others I cannot. I cannot control capacity. I cannot close the doors of the emergency department. My aim and drive every day is to ensure that patients who walk into the emergency department and who may have to wait are treated when they arrive, are seen and that they get care in the system. We work on this all day every day. I spent two hours with HIQA the day it was on site. We spoke at length about all of the issues we have discussed here today. HIQA is a very supportive regulator and works with us.

We do feel responsible and accountable. We have come through a pandemic after two years. We have a fatigued workforce. We know that. We are trying to work with them and put in all sorts of improvements to help them. It is a continuous cycle of improvement. At the end of the day, if the ambulance service brings us on average 400 additional patients a month for care and people attend our emergency department instead of going to other areas, we have to deal with that. It is difficult and we are sorely sorry for patients who have to wait in an emergency department. Believe me, we have all experienced it with our families. The wait time is very difficult. We ensure patients are looked after. We monitor our mortality statistics to ensure patients get care. We apologise every day for it.

I am responsible. I am accountable. This is why since I arrived at UL Hospitals Group eight years ago, I have worked very hard to put in the additional 98-bed capacity, the ten critical care beds that we opened within a month and the vascular suite. We were the first public hospital in Ireland to have robotics. We have put in place a hybrid vascular theatre. There has been the expansion of our medical assessment units in Nenagh and Ennis. There is a gynaecological ambulatory clinic for women in Nenagh, a fertility hub in Nenagh, a new injury unit in Ennis and a new state-of-the-art theatre in Croom. Waiting lists in ambulatory trauma have been slashed in the area if members want to look at orthopaedics. We have done a lot as a management team during our short tenure. We will continue to work very hard on the unscheduled care aspect. I totally respect that Oireachtas Members get calls mainly about the trolley waits in the emergency department and not about the other fantastic services our staff provide.

I wish the management well. There is a lot of work to be done. If they get answers to their asks with regard to capacity, subsequent HIQA reports may tell a different story.

Professor Colette Cowan

I thank Deputy Cullinane.

The most important issue to come out of these questions is the fact that there is a belief that the system can be fixed and resolved. That is a very important message to send out to the people in the region. Despite all of the challenges in the hospital, it is within our wherewithal to resolve them.

I thank Professor Cowan and the management team for their opening statement and for coming before the committee in such numbers. None of us wants to be giving out about the hospital. We are all here to try to resolve the issues for the greater good. From the responses of the witnesses, I know they and the team are committed to resolving the issues. What stood out for me in the report was the fact the hospital was non-compliant on high-quality, safe and reliable healthcare and dignity, privacy and autonomy. That is alarming. I understand the staff are in difficult circumstances and I acknowledge how hard everybody works. I have been there a few times with a family member and I have witnessed that.

A number of issues have been raised with me and I would like to go through some of them. I acknowledge Professor Cowan's apology earlier. Professor Lenehan apologised during the summer about some of the issues. There is an issue with neurological nurses. Many people are admitted to the hospital because they do not have access to a neurological nurse. They are in pain and they are not able to get advice on how to be treated. They are sent by their GP to the hospital where they present. They take up a bed over a weekend. Are there plans to increase the number of neurological nurses? It is an issue I have raised previously. The number was increased but there is still a deficit.

Professor Colette Cowan

I thank the Senator for her comments to the staff. We will pass them back and acknowledge their good work. I also thank the Senator for flying the flag for neurology in the region. UL Hospitals Group came from a very low base in neurology. There is a good service now. We now have five consultant neurologists working in the region. This is an increase from the two who were working in the service. We are delighted with that. We did an analysis of the services based on the various questions put to us about it. We have been looked after by the charitable partner, the Parkinson's Association of Ireland, with the Leben Building. We have very good relationship with it.

In our gap analysis we looked at nursing. We identified that we needed five additional neurology consultants, seven advanced nurse practitioners and five additional clinical nurse specialists to deliver the service requirements of the region. We have pitched for these numbers to be put into the neurology services. At present we have two specialist nurses. They are supported by other nursing specialists in Parkinson's, epilepsy, MS and the stroke service. We have a number of specialist and advanced nurse practitioners. It is a core focus. We have just done a strategy for neurology for the mid-west region because we can see high numbers of patients coming in who need this service. It is a work in progress. We are going in the right direction for it and we know what we need.

Another concern I have is that the HIQA inspection was conducted midweek. The high numbers are at weekends. Has the HSE looked at the cause of the high numbers at weekends? There is not enough patient flow. People tell me they feel they are there unnecessarily. The blood clinic used to finish earlier on Fridays. After 5 p.m. on Fridays, people who present to a GP are sent to the hospital if there are concerns. If blood tests could be read, they could be sent home if they are not at risk. Doctors send people to the hospital if they think they are at risk of a stroke, for instance. Is there a proposal to extend the hours over the weekend?

Professor Colette Cowan

I will defer to Professor Lenehan on this clinical matter.

Professor Brian Lenehan

The Senator is referring to GPs' access to blood tests. It is Monday to Friday access, which is standard throughout the country. It would require significant funding to provide access to out-of-hours GP services or weekend services. Our highest attendances are early in the week, on Monday and Tuesday. We see the numbers tail off on Wednesday, Thursday and Friday. We have lower attendance on Saturdays and Sundays. As one of the committee members referred to earlier, discharges tend to dip a little which can lead to something of a backlog. We are doing work on this to support patient flow over the seven days of the week so we do not get peaks and troughs. I hope to see this come to fruition in due course.

I thank Professor Lenehan. I spoke to two people who spent a weekend in the hospital who felt there was nobody there to discharge them. I am glad to see it is being worked on. They felt they were unnecessarily taking up a bed because there was no one to discharge them. One person had to wait 14 hours until discharge was signed off. I know people are being pulled and dragged to other areas. If this could be looked at, it would help. An elective hospital was mentioned. For quite some time, there has been a proposal from St. John's Hospital for a 150-bed unit. St. John's Hospital is part of UL Hospitals Group. Is the HSE in support of this proposal? What is its status at present?

Professor Colette Cowan

St. John's Hospital is a voluntary hospital with its own board. We have a service level agreement with it. It developed a strategy. We funded the feasibility study for its bed block. HSE estates is part of that process. We have supported it and funded it. We have the documentation. There is a view that we are not supporting it but we have no issue as to where the hospital would go if it is funded by the Government. I will defer to Dr. O'Connor as he wishes to comment.

Dr. Mike O'Connor

My comment is on weekend discharge, which is a national issue. A total of 16% of all discharges from our hospitals occur on Saturdays and Sundays. This is for complex reasons.

Additionally, there is a focus, which Professor Lenehan alluded to, around weekend discharge. Flow co-ordinators have been put in that will identify the patients for discharge. This system is a work in progress. Access to diagnostics is a challenge. Our colleagues in the community have stepped up their response at the weekend as well. All those things have been improved. I would not like this aspect to be characterised as a UHL–specific issue or on weekend discharges. A reluctance to discharge at the weekend is a national phenomenon, and a significant one.

I thank Dr. O'Connor for that answer. Professor Cowan mentioned that several people had retired, including consultants, nurses and others. Nurses have said they could not continue to work because of exhaustion and have retired. Is there planning to account for proposed retirements in respect of consultants and nurses? I am aware it is not possible to foresee people resigning before their time, but I would like to know if there is planning in this regard and, if so, what that is.

Professor Colette Cowan

We undertake planning all the time around retirements. We know when they are coming. Our HR teams work consistently on this aspect. We interview for nurses every week, for example. There is a continuous development of panels. Consultants will indicate to me when they are planning to retire. We usually bring in locum cover straightaway and then we quickly put out the advertisements. Members of our HR team are travelling all over, and doing fairs in London, Birmingham and Manchester now, to recruit staff to come back to Ireland. We believe they probably will return to Ireland now because of Brexit, etc. That work is under way all the time. We also work in Europe, with many doctors coming from there as well to work in our system. Therefore, we have a plan.

Great. A matter was raised with me recently concerning a person in unit 5B in hospital who required an electrocardiogram, ECG, scan. There was an eight-to-ten week waiting time to have the results read. The person who contacted me was concerned with the health of their loved one. Is it the norm that it would take this long for a scan to be read? The patient in this case ended up having a fall and had to go into the main hospital. As a result of a shortage of staff, however, personnel had to be brought in from St. Camillus Hospital to sit with that person. Is this the norm?

The hospital also has quite a few agency nurses, who have the same qualifications as everyone else. The question in this regard, however, concerns whether there is a higher cost with having to bring in all these agency nurses? If it was possible to have more full-time nurses, would that not keep down costs?

Professor Colette Cowan

I will pass this question to Ms Maria Bridgeman, chief officer of Mid West Community Healthcare, as unit 5B is under its auspices.

Ms Maria Bridgeman

I thank the Senator for her question. This type of situation really depends on the resources. It would not be the norm to have to wait that long. I can talk to the Senator separately and look up the specific data for that client, if this would be helpful.

Turning to the question on agency nurses, the Senator is correct. It would be far better if we could get enough nurses to work in our services. We are highly dependent now on international recruitment, as Professor Cowan said. This is especially the case in our older persons units. We have similar problems across our mental health services to our colleagues in the acute hospitals, with people retiring or resigning, or, in the case of younger staff, leaving to travel. We are certainly being challenged. Equally, it is somewhat of a lifestyle choice for some people to work with the agencies. This is why we are dependent in this regard. We do, however, have ongoing recruitment all the time.

To give an example, we received significant funding across the community healthcare area in the last year and a half for development posts. Approval was given for approximately 980 whole-time equivalents of which we have 645 people recruited. Additionally, however, we have approximately 1,200 replacement posts to fill, of which we have 738 completed. Therefore, there is this constant ebb and flow of staff and it is challenging. At a local level, we are all looking at the same pool of staff. As was mentioned earlier as well, people are getting promotions now too because of the funding given to community services and special services in that context. We are recruiting very expert staff.

Reference was made earlier to the other services. I refer to the different clinics, such as on Lord Edward Street, and the pharmacies. Is there an educational aspect to this endeavour? I ask because I see people going not into the small injuries units but into the accident and emergency department instead. How do we get this message across? Is more funding required to educate people around the small injuries units being open at certain times or that people with given types of injuries need to go to their local units rather than to the accident and emergency departments?

Professor Colette Cowan

With our local and national communications teams, we are consistently referring to the local injuries units on our Twitter feed. When I speak to members of the public about this, they tell me they do not read those things until they need them and that when they do suffer an injury, they forget they could go to units in Nenagh, Ennis or wherever. We find that sportspeople do use the local injury units a great deal. They wait until the next morning. There is, however, a consistent message in this regard. This winter, we are putting a focus on it with the national communications team to tell people more about this option. Some roadshows may be needed to inform the public what it is we do in this regard and why, and to explain in more detail why the system is the way it is and what is available to them beyond a busy accident and emergency department.

I thank the witnesses.

I call Deputy Carey next.

I thank the witnesses for coming and for their presentations and opening statements. I acknowledge the work of Professor Cowan and her management team in UHL. It is challenging. I also recognise the work of Ms Bridgeman and her team on the community side of things. There have been many advancements, even if we look at community healthcare. I refer to investments in all our community hospitals, including those in Kilrush and Raheen, or the new community hospital planned for Ennis, which will be state-of-the-art. There has also been investment in primary care centres. A fabulous facility will be opened on the Station Road in Ennis and another is planned for the Tulla Road. It is the same with Sixmilebridge and Killaloe. These are positive developments from a community care point of view.

The glaring problem, however, is with our accident and emergency departments and the waiting times. Like every public representative in this room, on this committee and in this Dáil, I get calls concerning this problem and the hardship families go through. Patients end up lying on trolleys for extended periods of time. This issue came to a head with the HIQA report. We also had the performance improvement unit going into the hospital. I would like to understand how that process works. I understand there was an initial visit in June, which was followed by a month-long stay in July, and that a further visit is planned. When is it expected it will be possible to report back with recommendations following the visit to the hospital?

Dr. Mike O'Connor: As the Deputy mentioned, the visit was for one month. In the first week, a deep dive was started to consider what might be the near-term opportunities to improve patient flow. Additionally, the process was absolutely collaborative. Therefore, this suite of actions is owned by the people in UHL. It is not a case of us prescribing actions, even though we did lean into some prescription items. We focused on several areas, especially concerning optimising the integration between community and acute hospitals. Equally, and has been mentioned several times, we have specifically and strongly suggested having a specific area for patients aged over 75, because the second highest attendance comes from people in that cohort. This is a significant issue. As we heard, that initiative will be operational in October. The third aspect, which is technical, is that at any one time about 10% to 12% of patients admitted to any hospital will stay for longer than 14 days, and they use about 60% of bed days. A small percentage of people admitted, therefore, about one-tenth of the patients, will stay for an extended time. There are multiple reasons for those outcomes.

We have brought a collaborative focus with UHL on digging down into those pages to see where the delays and blocks lie. In addition, there are a number of other areas around redesign of rotas and rosters. The piece is not so much a report - even though we will likely generate a report at the end - is actually owned by UHL, which is a better place to be. There are enough reports, such as the HIQA report. We are working alongside UHL and CHO to look at the short to medium term plan. We have heard clearly about the medium to long term plan, which nestles into capacity elective bed capacity. We clearly support that also. Our brief was to look at what we could do in the short term and bricks and mortar were not part of that.

There is a proposal of which Professor Cowan will be aware regarding a bed bureau for the UL Hospitals Group. It has come from clinicians within that hospital. It would help, on the bare face of it, because we could deal with non-urgent care in a more efficient way. It would improve patient flow and it would get more out of Ennis, Nenagh and St. John's in a collaborative way, using GPs. Have the witnesses looked at that proposal? Is it a runner? Could it happen?

Professor Brian Lenehan

We operate a bed bureau, and all of our patient flow takes place through that. What the Deputy is alluding to goes back to the fact that over the past two years we lost capacity in our medical assessment and surgical assessment units. These were appointed through the bed bureau, to which our GPs had direct access. The medical assessment units in Nenagh, Ennis and St. John's were operated through the bed bureau in collaboration with the GPs. As we evolve and as we sustain the work that we have been doing with the PMIU, it will be our intention to go back to our acute floor model, where we will have our emergency department, our surgical assessment unit and our medical assessment unit operating in UHL. The first piece of work we need to do is to decongest the site. We are just about there now so that we can get that bed bureau operating again.

It has been put to me older persons are referred by their GPs through the bed bureau, and are brought to UHL. There, they will end up on trolleys. They will eventually get beds. They will then be discharged to go to Ennis. This process is instead of going to directly to Ennis, having been referred by their GPs through the bed bureau. Instead of putting that older person through all that hardship, they could be looked after in Ennis, which is fully capable of doing that.

Professor Brian Lenehan

I agree. Where possible, we try to do that with the bed bureau. We do try to-----

When do the witnesses intend to start that?

Professor Brian Lenehan

That system operates currently.

Is that happening at the moment?

Professor Brian Lenehan

The system operates currently. We operate the bed bureau system.

Does Professor Lenehan have information on the number of patients who have been referred using that system?

Professor Brian Lenehan

We can get those numbers and reply to the Deputy on that. I do not have them with me.

Are the numbers large?

Professor Brian Lenehan

The numbers depend on the acuity of the patients. While we have great facilities in Ennis, we have limited capacity to treat patients who are acutely unwell. We are talking about the more chronic illnesses. That is where the medical assessment unit comes in. That is where they are referred to. If they require admission, they are admitted from the medical assessment unit to Ennis where they receive continual care. Many patients have their whole episode of care in Ennis, Nenagh and St. John's.

That works well. We can see from figures that have been shared that attendances at the minor injuries unit in Ennis are up by 26% this year. They are up for 40% in Nenagh. Can the Professor see a greater role for those smaller hospitals for Ennis and for Nenagh? Can they maybe extend the medical assessment unit's opening hours for minor injuries. There was a major investment in Ennis for a new minor injuries unit and there are plans to build new theatres there as well. It was a very welcome development. There needs to be a collaborative approach throughout the region to sweat all the assets and people that are there to provide a better patient experience.

Professor Brian Lenehan

That would be part of our vision.

Dr. Mike O'Connor

On the national perspective, we engaged with the model 2 hospitals, which also feel that they have a bigger role to play in that emergency presentation. The National Ambulance Service is working collaboratively with one of the model 2 hospitals to allow for direct ambulance transfer to it as part of a pilot project. That will be successful. It will give great confidence to the other model 2 hospitals. It will clearly be patient friendly as an ambulance whizzes by Ennis on the way to UHL and then back out the following day for a low-acuity problem.

When does Dr. O'Connor envisage that will happen?

Dr. Mike O'Connor

That is happening at one of the model 2 hospitals. In addition, safety is a priority from the point of view that we want to get the right patient to the right hospital. In many cases, the model 2 hospital is the right hospital. We have engaged with all the other model 2 hospitals and their appetite and enthusiasm to adopt this as a way of working is massive.

In terms of an elective-only hospital for the mid-west region, I am big supporter of the idea. Some 17% of the patients within the UL Hospitals Group are there for elective procedures. All of that space could be freed up, and the hospital could deal with emergency care. Is UHL in a position to finalise what proposal it is going to support? Our guests have spoken about 150 units at St. John's, which would be fantastic. There is also the UPMC proposal. Obviously, I would like to see a publicly owned, elective-only hospital for the mid-west region. There is a need for a Government decision around that, because it does not include Limerick. In Dr. O'Connor's opinion, would it be advantageous for the mid-west region to have such a facility to deal with elective-only procedures?

Dr. Mike O'Connor

The views on capacity are very clear regarding what is required. It is a Government policy decision. Is there is a requirement for an elective space that is publicly owned? I would be entirely supportive of that, but, again, it is for the Government to decide. It is required that we go through a number of proposals that we need to bottom out which direction they are going to go in, because otherwise it will just go around in circles. The Deputy asked a direct question as to whether I would support an elective hospital for the people of the mid-west. Why would I not?

I have a question to Professor Cowan. Where are talks between the HSE and the Minister for Health, Deputy Donnelly? I understand he has met with Professor Cowan on a number of occasions to discuss this issue. I sought answers through parliamentary questions and I have met with the Minister personally as part of a group of Government Deputies and representatives within the region. Obviously, we were trying to change his mind, to change policy and to get an elective-only hospital in the mid-west. Where do Professor Cowan's discussions with the Minister in respect of that matter stand?

Professor Colette Cowan

I met the Minister once when he came to Limerick and visited the emergency department for the evening. He spent a long time with our staff, he spoke to our nurses and to our doctors privately. I was not in attendance at those meetings, which was right. He met the management team and we had long discussions with the chief clinical directors, who set out what the mid-west region needed. An elective hospital came up in those discussions. We have had no further discussion on that because, as I understand it, it is under review by the Government. That review will be advised accordingly through the HSE on the decisions, but we would like to be considered in the review process.

My final question is on the winter plan that is being formulated. When will the HSE be in a position to publish that? The HSE needs to speak to public representatives in the region and to present that plan to us. We will support it 100% in trying to get the resources. It has been a whole year of a winter.

Professor Colette Cowan

Yes.

I say this because we have had those figures all year round. It is the worst ever. It is a frightening prospect, as we head into the winter, that those figures will actually get worse. We all need to work together to get behind that plan.

Professor Colette Cowan

I thank the Deputy for his support for the plan. We have submitted our bids for funding. The winter plan is now subject to discussion with the Government. I understand that it will be launched shortly by the Minister for Health. We have a series of engagements that we are lining up with each talk team about both the winter plan and the Deloitte report. We will brief the representatives on all of that locally. We will then be able to tell them more but at the moment we await the Government plan around it and around the funding.

Before I bring in the next member, I ask Professor Cowan to forward to that winter plan to the committee. We intend to a session on the work plans for the different regions, so the winter plan would be helpful to have. Going by her remarks, I think that there is an open invitation to the Minister for Health to the region.

Professor Colette Cowan

Absolutely, yes. He is always welcome.

That is great. I now call Deputy O'Donoghue.

I welcome the management of UHL to the committee.

I would love to see UHL being the top hospital in the country. I have had family who trained in the hospital in earlier years and are near retirement age now. It was - and I emphasise "was" - the best training hospital in the country at that time. Student nurses wanted to go there to be trained because of what it meant to be trained in UHL. My biggest concerns with the hospital are, one, the HIQA inspection and, two, my concern since I have been a Teachta Dála and before about morale of the staff.

I spent time in the hospital in February when I overturned my car. I hate saying this but UHL was not my first choice. I went to St. John's Hospital first and was sent back to UHL. I asked if they could send me somewhere else and they said no. For me to say that, who wants UHL to be the top hospital in the country, is not only a concern for me but should be a massive concern for the witnesses.

The biggest issue I saw in UHL was the lack of reporting of minor and major incidents. I spoke to a lot of staff in the hospital, ranging from porters right up to the top. I am not taking a picture from one sector only. They felt it was like being bullied in the hospital if they reported something. That is not right. Huge money has been spent in UHL on legal fees in challenges to different things that have happened in the hospital. If that funding was put towards extra resources, training and induction, it would help our hospital.

Morale within the hospital has to be right for people to get back in there. The structure within the hospital has to be right for people to get back in there and want to nurse there. Consider the amount of nursing staff who have left the hospital. I talked to people as I went from every part of the hospital to where I had to go to. They said the biggest problem was emergency services. When they got to other sections of the hospital, they could become nurses again, but they felt it was like wartime every time they went to work in the emergency services. They went in to do their job and do their best and left stressed, saying they could not help somebody because of the overcrowding in the hospital. I was on a trolley when I was there and was moved from one section to another. In one section, there was a machine alongside me. They had to move three trolleys to get that machine out and get it to somebody who needed it. There was a line of people along the corridors. There were papers put on doors to block me seeing trolleys lined out on other corridors, in a hospital I want to see being the best in the country.

There have been fatalities in that hospital because of non-reporting of minor and major incidents. I will not mention the case because the Chair outlined the situation. A case has been going on for three years where a young girl died in that hospital and, if the major incident had been reported, that person would not have been allowed to do that surgery. The case has been held up and stonewalled for three years. It is a legal thing that is being covered up because it will show up the hospital for its inadequate-----

Be careful where you are going.

I will not mention any names.

You are making suggestions that something illegal or whatever-----

I have already put this on the record of the Dáil so am quoting what I have already quoted.

I am just asking you to be careful where you are going.

Okay. Other incidents have happened in the hospital and it takes so long for legal to find out what happens. There is a cost to that, when that money could be used otherwise if somebody says we got it wrong and should put our hands up, that it should have been identified and reported, that we could have helped faster and used the money being used on legal - which is rising in UHL in the last number of years of challenges - rather than going into the healthcare and staffing that is needed to build the hospital back to the number one hospital in Ireland. That is all I want.

I am not here to have a go directly at Professor Cowan, but she is the manager, boss and CEO. It is frustrating from the outside looking in. The management is in the firing line because they should have it structured in such a way that this happens. That is my major concern for UHL. I want it to grow and be the best training hospital. I want nurses and staff lining up outside the door saying they want to get in, but look at the statistics for nurse placements this year in colleges. They had to drop points all over to try to get people we need back into nursing and the caring system. That is something I want to build.

I have been in the hospital on numerous occasions. I was recently in the Mater hospital with a son of mine who had a spinal operation. I was looking at the different structures, backups and teams they had. They probably have more space and facilities than UHL.

What will the witnesses do about minor and major incidents and making sure a person who wants to report one will not be told they cannot report this or that person? It is for the betterment of the hospital and to make sure the hospital runs efficiently. It will bring down the number of legal challenges it will have. Will they look into that incident with the 18-year-old - we all know who we are talking about - to see can we get to a conclusion for that family?

Professor Colette Cowan

I thank the Deputy. We concur that we want to be the best hospital and region in the country. I look forward to meeting the Deputy. I believe we are meeting soon and he can show me the facts of what he is asserting. Professor Lenehan will talk about risks and incidents because he is the lead for quality in the mid-west, looks at all that data all of the time and will address that.

Professor Brian Lenehan

An important part of my role is quality of patient safety. Incident management is integral to that. For the investigation of incidents that are raised we have a robust system in place. All staff are encouraged to raise incidents, both minor and major. All staff are offered training on Q-Pulse, which is the system on which incidents are raised. I assure the Deputy that once an incident is raised, it is investigated in line with the incident management framework. It is categorised. It has a preliminary assessment done and can be closed out if it is minor, and there are learnings from that. If it requires a more substantial investigation it goes on to a systems analysis, which can be an internal or external review. I have commissioned many of them in my two years and am the commissioner of some that were commissioned by my predecessors.

This is extremely important and I am disappointed for anyone to suggest there is an ethos of bullying whereby people are discouraged from raising incidents. In my role, I encourage it to be absolutely open and transparent. If minor incidents are not raised, my office cannot know about them, investigate them or, as the Deputy said, prevent them becoming something more major. I am proud of the system we have. We have built a robust system and anything that is logged is escalated onto the national incident management system. If it is not raised in the beginning, I do not know about it. I cannot investigate it, escalate it or close it out.

I will finish with one question because my time is up.

Professor Brian Lenehan

People are openly encouraged to report-----

What did HIQA bring up on its report when it looked at minor and major incidents and the ones that went to national? How many went to national reporting and how many were dealt with, according to the HIQA report?

Professor Brian Lenehan

In what HIQA report?

In the HIQA inspection UHL got, was that highlighted-----

Professor Brian Lenehan

It was not a subject matter of it.

The review was of four standards as part of the national standards for safer, better healthcare. It was a very specific review. I review our incident management reporting. It forms part of our monthly performance meetings and our meetings with national incident management system personnel. It is discussed openly and transparently. I can assure the Deputy of that.

I look forward to meeting the officials at the upcoming meeting.

I thank Professor Cowan and all her team for attending. There has been a lot of talk about an elective hospital. It has been suggested by some that St. John's would be the appropriate place. St. John's is part of UL Hospitals Group but has a very different ownership structure. I understand it has its own board. To what degree can UHL direct St. John's to do something or not do something to address capacity or the lack of capacity at Dooradoyle, the main UL Hospitals Group hospital in Limerick?

Professor Colette Cowan

St. John's is a voluntary hospital. The Deputy is quite right that it has a legislative board but it has a service-level agreement with me. I fund it annually with over €24 million. We have a service level agreement whereby there are certain key performance indicators that it has to meet, including in respect of occupancy levels within the hospital system, to assist the group.

The difficulty for St. John's is that it is constrained by its infrastructure. Consequently, it is prone to outbreaks, meaning it has to close wards to keep patients safe. Therefore, occupancy can drop there. That this happens is not the fault of any of the staff; it happens for safety reasons. Those concerned attend a monthly performance meeting on their finances, quality and safety. The meeting is similar to all the other performance meetings we hold under our directorate structure. We work with the CEO of St. John's. I meet the chairman, the bishop, as required. He sends me an invite when he wants me to attend a meeting with the board. I am meeting the board in October. In effect, we have a service level agreement with the hospital.

Before the HIQA report was published after the visit to the hospital, a number of letters were sent by senior consultants in UHL, one to Professor Cowan and one to members of her team. The letters called for two things: first, for the non-Covid pathway to be dropped and to go back to the older system and, second, for much more consultation. Nothing really happened immediately. The letters went into the public domain and the request regarding the Covid pathway was met.

My question may not be for Professor Cowan specifically as it may be for her management team, who are here with her. How many meetings have there been with the group of consultants since the letter was received in early June? I cannot remember whether it was sent on 12 June or 15 June. In any event, we all know the letter I am talking about. What degree of consultation has there been with the consultants since the letter was received, which was over three months ago?

Professor Colette Cowan

The question is to me. I thank the Deputy. I believe the letter he is alluding to was from some of the medical consultants. There were a number of letters that I know they admitted they leaked to the media and also sent to the local politicians.

They would not be the first to do that.

Professor Colette Cowan

That is fine.

Professor Colette Cowan

It is a democratic republic, so I have no issue with that at all.

Unfortunately, it has now become the standard across the spectrum.

Particularly if people feel they are being ignored, they go to politicians.

Professor Colette Cowan

They are not being ignored.

Professor Cowan may say they are not, but that is-----

Professor Colette Cowan

I do not mind at all if they do what I have just described. I can assure the Deputy they are not ignored. I have an executive management team. We meet every Wednesday morning on the hospital campus. Clinicians account for 50% of my executive management team. There are clinical directors who run the directorates to whom all the consultants report. There is an open-door system for them. There is a board where they can meet. They can raise their issues. All issues are brought to the executive management team meeting through the clinical director if a consultant is worried. The letter would have been discussed at the executive management team meeting. Professor Lenehan then dealt with the concerns. Real concerns were being raised. I would never block people from raising concerns like those because the authors of the letter are the people on the front line. We addressed the pathways for them but we were under a strict policy on Covid pathways, and we are not out of Covid yet. The consultants are under immense pressure. These people have worked tirelessly over the past two years and are quite fatigued. They did raise issues with regard to meeting. I met one of the consultants one on one. He is well known to me for a long time. We discussed many things and tried to address the issues he had.

Professor Brian Lenehan

People ask about access to the executive management team. We operate a very robust directorate management structure. The directorate management team has a clinical director, a general manager and a director of nursing. They meet all the individual heads of departments, individual consultants and consultants as a group regularly. It is part of their daily business. Concerns are escalated through the directorate management structure.

Professor Cowan said Professor Lenehan addressed the letter with the consultants. Has Professor Lenehan met each of the signatories? Professor Cowan said there is an open door and that people can approach different bodies. I presume their doors are also open. Sometimes doors can be opened from either side. Has Professor Lenehan met each of the consultants since the letter was sent?

Professor Brian Lenehan

Have I met each one? I do not believe so. I meet some of them weekly because they are associate clinical directors. Some are former clinical directors who have worked with or under me. The majority of the others ring me regularly. Have I contact with them? Yes. Have their concerns been addressed? They have. They have been addressed through the structures we operate within the hospital.

Meeting is one matter but has Professor Lenehan had contact with each of them since the letter was written?

Professor Brian Lenehan

Yes.

It was said that the letter was raised at management board level. Was it raised before or after it entered the public domain?

Professor Colette Cowan

It would have been before that. The letter was sent to me. The consultants wrote to me first.

Professor Colette Cowan

Any correspondence that we get from any clinician is discussed at the executive management meeting. It would be circulated immediately by my office among the members of the executive management team.

What happened after the meeting and before the letter went into the public domain?

Professor Colette Cowan

The consultants were worried about the pathway, junior doctors and the work burden. We did not disagree with any of that, so we had to look at the pathway because it was a national pathway concerning both Covid and non-Covid pathways through the emergency department. There had to be engagement with the emergency medicine consultants, who have different views. One has to manage all the different views and come up with a solution, and that is what happened.

The writers of the letter may want a lot more engagement with people, but there are hundreds of consultants. If we were to meet every day, we would get no work done at all. They all have their own requests on developing services, as the Deputy can imagine. They are high-standing individuals who work very hard in the area.

Let me move on to Ennis. The Joint Committee on Public Petitions received a petition on the issue. It would be wrong to say that the cause of the overcrowding was stated to be the fact that Limerick was the only model 4 hospital in the area and that there were no model 3 hospitals at Ennis, Nenagh and St. John's, or model 2 hospitals. However, it was referred to, which I believe is as far as could be gone given the remit. There is a growth in population in the mid-west, as there is elsewhere. In this regard, I understand a certain age cohort was discussed earlier at the committee meeting. Is there a need to revisit this issue? Is there a need for a model 3 hospital somewhere in the catchment area of UL Hospitals Group?

Professor Colette Cowan

It is a difficult question because model 3 hospitals require specific resourcing. They need high-dependency care and specialist teams. There are several model 3 hospitals around the country that one could examine in terms of staffing. It can be quite difficult, which can lead to adverse events. One has to balance according to the potential impact in the region. Our view is that the elective hospital would assist the model 4 hospitals, but reopening emergency departments at other sites would require significant investment, and there would be safety issues concerning care. For example, if as a member of the public I went to Nenagh hospital clasping my chest with a heart attack, I would like to know I was going to a cardiologist who stents every day of the week. That would not be the case in Nenagh hospital. We have to regionalise some very specialist disciplines, such as cardiology, in UHL.

I accept that there are huge resourcing issues but the issue I am raising concerns the needs of the area in respect of the population, the acuity of patients presenting at UHL and the numbers presenting. It seems there is money for everything now and that, regardless of the problem, the Government says it will just write a cheque.

I was surprised that approach, unfortunately, was not taken to University Hospital Limerick, UHL, because it is taken to almost every other problem the Government faces. If money were no object, and in this time of inflationary cycles it is increasingly becoming no object, do the needs of the region point to the requirement of a properly equipped, properly resourced and properly staffed model 3 hospital in the region in addition to UHL campus in Dooradoyle?

Professor Colette Cowan

Both men beside me want to answer the Deputy's question and then I will come in.

Professor Brian Lenehan

We may have differing opinions. A model 3 hospital is a significant hospital. It needs a significant number of hospital beds for it to be an effective model 3 hospital. Personally, I believe University Hospital Limerick has to be adequately resourced as a model 4 hospital. Then we need a scheduled care facility so that scheduled care is not interrupted by unscheduled care. They are both different to the need for a model 3 hospital or a model 3S hospital. We need to have all of our specialist services and all of our high-acuity services on one site. If we look at other jurisdictions, they have one large hospital for a massive population of millions. What we do not want to do is dilute the expertise across the region.

Dr. Mike O'Connor

I actually do not differ from Professor Lenehan's view but obviously inpatient capacity is clearly required in UHL. There is clearly elective capacity in whatever way but we have overlooked one other piece that has not been mentioned, which is that many patients in our model 4 and model 3 hospitals should go to a lower level of care to enable them to get better. That is with rehabilitation and enablement units and by investing in supporting enablement units. There is a bed stock of 392 in the region of community units. Looking in that direction, however, at any one time there are a large number of patients in model 4, model 3 hospitals and even model 2 hospitals who actually would need to be in an enablement unit. There is a need for a model 4 hospital, certainly, and as we might have described earlier, enhancing of the model 2 hospitals. In addition, we need to expand the elective capacity and support our excellent colleagues in the community by building their capacity.

I thank the witnesses for their answers and the Chairman for the opportunity.

I thank the Deputy. I will go back to Deputy Crowe.

I want to come in with a few additional questions arising from earlier. Just before the Dáil rose for the summer, Mr. Robert Watt and Mr. Paul Reid sat directly across from the witnesses in this same room. Both Senator Conway and I extensively probed the idea of an elective hospital in the mid-west. It was very obvious it is not something they support. As they have advised Government, they support having elective hospitals in counties Dublin, Cork and Galway. Is it frustrating to the witnesses that the chain of command right up to Mr. Watt and Mr. Reid does not believe it should happen? That is very evident. They kept saying it is for Government to decide. However, their recommendation is for counties Dublin, Cork and Galway. That is the recommendation Sláintecare and the Department of Health gave to the Minister and Cabinet by way of memo. That is what the advice has been. Therefore, somewhere in that vertical chain of command there is somebody who does not believe in an elective hospital. Does that frustrate the witnesses? They should please use the liberty of this room to criticise their senior management team in the HSE.

Professor Colette Cowan

I most certainly will not. I have no liberty with Government. I can only influence what I believe the region needs. It is a Government decision. We have not heard what the review of the elective hospitals is yet. I have not read that briefing note from the meeting to which the Deputy alluded but I may look at it. I do not know if my national colleagues want to comment on it but I actually have no influence over Government decision on it. I can only pitch.

Ms Mary Day

With regard to the elective hospitals, it has gone into the policy and it is Government decision regarding those units. However, I will go back to how we reorganise capacity in the region. Dr. O'Connor made a good point in his last comment regarding having the right capacity to meet the need. There is an element of looking at scheduled care facilities, repurposing, looking at additional theatres and how we repurpose bed stocks or create the surgical care hubs we require. That is an area we would be responsible for planning.

Since the inception of this State - and this is in all countries - there is the so-called permanent government; the Civil Service is there to provide advice and memos are given to Government. The advice given to this Government is that there should be only three elective hospitals and Limerick is not there. People prepared that advice for better or worse. For all his positives and flaws, the Minister, Deputy Donnelly, and whoever becomes the next Minister after him and so on will follow the advice of his or her chief advisers. The Sláintecare all-party advisory group buys into that. It does not recommend an elective hospital in Limerick, Clare or anywhere in the mid-west. There is a flaw here. I say this in support of all the witnesses. They know and live this every day. They know what is required but their senior management do not, and that is not the advice they are giving to Government. Therefore, for this Government and the Government that will come after, this will perpetuate itself because we have somebody there who does not believe in it.

I will move on. I would really like the HSE to do some capacity mapping. This became a buzz word during the Ukrainian war. The Department of Education was able to very quickly capacity map where it had schools, resources and everything. I would love to see the HSE do some capacity mapping in the mid-west in terms of GP and dental care. Just yesterday, a report was launched across the street in Buswell's Hotel on poverty in County Clare. It identified that comparative to the Irish average, County Clare is 33% behind in terms of GP care. We are 50% behind in terms of dental care, something to which I can attest. I have had a broken tooth for five weeks. This is something each member here can tell the witnesses anecdotally. We know it on the ground. We would love the HSE to capacity map to identify where those grey areas are in west Clare and north Clare. Can the HSE please map it out for us at some point and tell us where the deficiencies are? We cannot get personnel back there to provide community-level healthcare. Maybe that is the reason they are going into accident and emergency medicine.

Professor Colette Cowan

I will hand the Deputy over to Ms Bridgeman who is the chief officer over that area.

Ms Maria Bridgeman

I thank Deputy Crowe very much. I am aware of that report that came out yesterday evening.

I am not looking to get my tooth fast-tracked.

Ms Maria Bridgeman

I was just about to come to that in a second for the Deputy. In the meantime, I have not had a chance to read the report but I am actually aware of some of the content within it. In respect of GPs, it is widely known across the Irish health system that we are going to be challenged in respect of recruiting GPs. In the mid-west, and we will specifically speak about County Clare, getting resources and staffing to rural areas is a challenge for us. We have some good news in respect of the GP practice out in Kilmihil, however, where a GP has taken up the post there after it being advertised. That is good news. We have a GP in charge practice in Kilmihil because of a particular issue there.

Does Ms Bridgeman think the HSE could map it?

Ms Maria Bridgeman

Yes, we will map it for the Deputy. I am just giving him an overview. Absolutely.

We would love to see it. It would be a very important tool in here for us to argue and leverage for more. I will keep going if Ms Bridgeman does not mind because there are a few other issues.

Ms Maria Bridgeman

Does the Deputy want me to deal with the dentists?

Ms Maria Bridgeman

We are very much aware of the dental treatment services scheme, DTSS, and the dentists. At a national level, there was an incentivised initiative put in place but dentists did not apply in numbers for that. We are aware of the issue and we are without question challenged in respect of dental provision for medical card holders.

I thank Ms Bridgeman very much. Inis Gile is a 17-bed facility in Parteen in my home parish that was last used by mental health services in the mid-west approximately three years ago. It was fully kitted out and fully upgraded. It was used for a few weeks as a vaccination centre during Covid-19 but has lain idle since. I have suggested to Government and everyone that it should perhaps be used for Ukrainian refugees. It is perfectly kitted out as individual accommodation units. At this time of looming crisis coming into the winter, maybe some acute capacity of some sort could be put there for the winter period. Has the HSE plans for it? Having it lie idle with ferns growing up through the tarmacadam is not what we want to see in the community.

Ms Maria Bridgeman

Yes, we have plans for it. I am surprised to hear the ferns are growing up through the tarmacadam because the last day I was out there they certainly were not. We have looked at that facility in respect of a number of services. The issue really is its location. However, the good news is that we now have the new development of a dual diagnosis mental health illness addiction team for which we are a pilot site. The model of care has actually been agreed. There are eight whole-time equivalents, WTE, allocated to that team and they will be based in Inis Gile.

I have a few quick fire questions I might get in. Ms Bridgeman might update us on where the new maternity hospital is at.

Information-sharing systems are very poor and not just in UHL group collectively. I know somebody who on the day of discharge muttered something like, "Sure didn't I get over prostate cancer two years ago". The blood ran out of the care team's faces because hospital staff did not know this. They discharged this person after some weeks. Not every person in their 80s will disclose their full medical history. They presume it will be on a screen somewhere in the hospitals. Information systems in Ireland seem to be chronic. If someone moves from another part of the country, his or her file does not transfer with that person. More is known about my car going for the national car test than there is about my healthcare and that of everyone in the mid-west. I ask for comment on where that is at.

The day Mr. Paul Reid and Mr. Robert Watt last appeared before the committee, I got a series of emails from colleagues at management level in the mid-west who have retired. They said that staff morale is low, which is very easy to imagine, as was management morale. Perhaps the representatives cannot comment on this but those who contacted me cited the fact that financial emergency measures in the public interest, FEMPI, came in 14 years ago, but pay grades that were approved to management have not been implemented. They said it is very galling for management to try to lead initiative after initiative, and pick themselves up every single week to try to drive on UHL group, while people above them have had €81,000 pay-grade pay rises and they have had nothing. They said to me - they had the liberty of being able to say this because they had retired from UHL - that it is galling and demoralising. They said they try to pick themselves up every day but how can they when the chiefs above them have had pay increase after pay increase, while they have not had pay restoration, morale is low and how can they lead on something? It resonated with me. That is something that has never really been out there in the ether. It has to be a factor. When morale is low, how can people drive on a ship? I ask for comment on some of that. Maybe the witnesses cannot comment on the last part, but their retired colleagues have certainly been brave in citing that.

Professor Colette Cowan

I will start with the last point first and work back towards the maternity hospital issue. I have said consistently to my team and all the staff over the past few months that after the pandemic people in the health service have no reserve left. They worked consistently and very hard. FEMPI came before that and we have no say over reversing it. Again, that is a Government decision but pay awards have lifted morale slightly. There is balloting going on at present and staff can see some level of increase in pay coming, but I do not set staff salaries and I cannot influence them either. I just follow the consolidated pay scales under public service.

Morale is low for everybody because people are tired and fatigued. They continue to come to work and now see a service surging again and delayed access to care for patients. People stayed at home because of Covid and we see more people coming in sick. It is an area we have to work hard on to help staff, which we have. We built a health and well-being centre for staff in UHL last year during the pandemic. They have access to free mindfulness and exercise classes, and they absolutely love it. The feedback on it has been immense. That has helped staff. They are coming in early to do yoga classes. We are trying to rebuild them; we also have psychology teams involved with them. We are trying to build morale. Of course, we have to work on our own morale and build our own reserves as well as that of teams across the national system.

The Deputy is so right about the informatics system. We concur that an electronic patient record is the answer to a lot of things. High cost-----

Is one being developed within the group?

Professor Colette Cowan

It is a national system that will be put in. A paperless system is being tested first with the Children's Health Ireland model. It has to be legislated for in respect of other hospital groups. We have pockets of good practice but we do not have an overall system in the country. Covid vaccination was a case in point. Everyone's PPS number is now loaded with information on the Covid vaccine so it might make it a little easier. Every time we meet staff, it is the one thing that people need. I concur with the Deputy on that.

It would greatly speed up triage.

Professor Colette Cowan

Yes, and so many other things. The maternity hospital is in the Ireland 2040 plan launched by Leo Varadkar. It is up there, in between plans for Holles Street and the Rotunda. It is well recognised that we have fantastic maternity services in the mid-west but they are off-campus, which is a risk in itself. We have developed large plans. We are just working up the feasibility study but it will be an extensive piece of work. We will have to do enabling works to bring it on-campus. It will be a ten-year plan to bring maternity services across to UHL.

I thank all the witnesses.

I am conscious we are running out of time.

The engagement today has been very informative. I thank the witnesses very much for that. I very much acknowledge the work Ms Bridgeman is doing. The work she is doing since she commenced her role will make a big difference to accident and emergency services at the end of the day.

When does the HSE expect to commission the primary care centre on Station Road, Ennis? When will it be up and running and open to the public?

Ms Maria Bridgeman

I thank the Senator. Certainly, the support I have from the team working with me and others drives everything on. I acknowledge the significant funding the community has received over the past year and a half because that will make a significant difference to patients and people in the mid-west. There will be no doubt about that. It is really going to bed down now. We have been very fortunate in community services over the past two to three years in respect of the capital funding we have received. We have developed a significant number of primary care centres. I am not sure if the Senator was part of the visit of elected Members in August. For those committee members who were not able to attend, we will organise that again. That will become operational by the end of this quarter but really next month. It had to be handed over and we then had to fit it out. That will become operational in the next number of weeks, probably by the end of October.

Does Ms Bridgeman have a date in mind?

Ms Maria Bridgeman

I will say the end of October or November, but it will be operational and it will be a fantastic centre.

On the proposed primary care centre for Ennistymon, how advanced is the HSE on plans for that facility?

Ms Maria Bridgeman

At present, we have secured the capital for the current centre in Ennis. We have secured a centre for Thurles, which has opened, and we have secured one for Newcastle West. We are working on the other plans. The centre in Ennistymon will not be anything as big as that in Ennis because it would not be required, but we will certainly be working on the feasibility and the requirement for what is needed out there. As the Deputy is aware, since he visited the centre in Kilrush with me, we will certainly be looking at the requirements of the Ennistymon area, the population there and the resources we have to accommodate in the centre.

I will ask Professor Cowan about the HSE's relationship with the Irish Nurses and Midwives Organisation, INMO. I imagine it has not been easy. INMO members have been fantastic, as have all the staff, which we can never acknowledge enough. On HSE engagement with the INMO, has the HSE taken some of its proposals and suggestions on board? In the response to Deputy Carey, I was quite taken aback that it was said the only meeting that was had with the Minister, Deputy Stephen Donnelly, was when he visited the hospital in Limerick. I would have thought, as CEO, that the Minister would have wanted to engage, especially given the media attention that UHL receives on a regular basis as a result of the trolley numbers. I would have thought the Minister would have wanted to engage and get updates from the HSE directly on a more regular basis than that. Maybe I picked it up wrong, but the witnesses might confirm how often they have met the Minister since his appointment.

Professor Colette Cowan

I will again answer back to front and start with my engagement with the Minister. He engages with the acute hospital system nationally. Staff get multiple phone calls and they then contact me. We operate in a hierarchical system. We go through the line so if there is query regarding UL Hospitals Group, the national acute director will contact me and I will do up briefing notes. We are in touch with the Department every two weeks in drawing up briefing notes for the Minister on what is happening. He has visited the hospital, and as I said earlier, he met us. He also visited the Covid vaccination centres. I understand he will visit again shortly to launch the winter plan. That is how the engagement works for us.

I have no issue with the INMO. I am a nurse myself. I have worked with the area lead, Ms Mary Fogarty, for years and years. We always had a very good working relationship. We have a joint union-management forum that meets every month; the directors of nursing meet with it every month.

The representatives are very good. They bring ideas to the table, but sometimes we cannot deliver everything they want.

Just to clarify, regarding the trolley numbers, we are not in dispute with the INMO on its trolley numbers. One of its representatives rings us every morning and we give them the numbers.

Lastly, it is a tough job and we all acknowledge it is not easy. We are all in this for the benefit of the people to try to ensure we get a better health service. I think we are all committed to that, so I just wanted to acknowledge that as well.

I have one last question. I thank our witnesses for their information. In terms of matching capacity to demand, is there anything other than what our witnesses told us already that comes to their mind that would make an urgent response to the needs that present now? I refer to, for instance, theatre capacity and availability, use of theatres, closing down of theatres at different times, what might cause them and so and so forth, and the same in relation to beds. I know the witnesses said this before, but I would like to hear it again for the record.

Professor Brian Lenehan

I would be delighted to answer that. We have outlined as best we can the current capacity challenges we have. Once we get agreement on the delivery of them, the next thing we need to do is look at the future capacity challenges. We do not want to caught behind the curve again. We need to plan strategically and develop our strategy collaboratively with all the stakeholders. We should not forget we are moving into a more integrated system and all of the capacity cannot just be about UHL. It is also about our community capacity, our rehab facilities, our model 1 hospitals and our community nursing homes. It is the total capacity in the region we need to look at and take a strategic view on. We have clearly outlined what we need now and in the short to medium-term future to deliver for the healthcare needs of the patients of the region.

I thank our witnesses for summing up the situation. I listened to the opening statement and Professor Cowan talked about the reconfiguration that occurred back in 2009. They were looking for 642 beds at that stage and they got 530. There was a shortfall of 112 beds. Even with the new unit that would propose beds, they would still be short of them. We also heard this morning the fact the population has risen since then. Further to some of the focus this morning, we cannot manufacture these beds, but what can we do in relation to the capacity within the system?

We have had representatives of other hospital groups and hospitals in and they have been quite innovative in some of the responses. There is one hospital in the Dublin area that has experts going out in the ambulance service, particularly for dealing with older people. We have heard tales of the errors in beds. That is one example. We have not touched on the issue of step-down beds this morning. Is there an issue there? The relationship with the local authority, again, in some areas is better than others, especially for the whole area of independent living, housing adaptation and so on. Again, we have not looked at the wider picture of that.

I have another question in the couple of minutes that are left. I outlined some areas, but I refer to looking at best practice in other areas. For example, this committee met in relation to some of the regionalisation that will be going on. One of the concerns we had was there would not be that interaction within the system and learning from other areas where clearly systems are working and innovative, are not costing a huge amount, but that work and deliver for people. Are our witnesses confident that, moving forward, collaboration will still continue? What plans do they have for tweaking the system? The minor injuries clinic and other areas were mentioned. Are there still shortfalls they could make up in relation to the fact that they will always be in a difficult situation regarding a shortage of beds within UHL?

Professor Colette Cowan

I will defer to Professor Lenehan presently. Regarding local authority engagement, Ms Bridgeman and I set up public services working together and we engage regularly with the city council and local authorities and, indeed, with the Garda chief superintendent and public health medicine. We are a team that works together. That works well for us and had been up until the pandemic, when we had to split away from each other. It is about reinvigorating that. We have looked at smart cities and innovative working for elderly in the home. There is a quite an interesting document from Limerick City and County Council on how that would work. It just recently invited us to its upcoming launch of an age-friendly strategy. We will work with it on that.

On the innovation of other hospital groups and colleagues, we are always trying to find out and speak to our colleagues. We have an association – a CEO forum – where we discuss all of these matters. What the Chair is describing is Pathfinder, and I will let Professor Lenehan talk because we are about to launch that.

Professor Brian Lenehan

Pathfinder, as the Chair alluded to, was piloted in Beaumont. The results have been optimistic with reducing bed days and conveyances to hospitals. Recruitment is at an advanced stage in that in both the allied health and the paramedic side of it. It is hoped it will be live in the near future. It will be, again, one of those small things that will build on incremental positive change for us. If there are fewer patients being conveyed to the hospital, we will have fewer attendances. It is to be hoped that translates to fewer admissions and fewer trolleys.

The more we learn from what has worked well in other groups, the better we will do. These challenges are not unique to University Limerick Hospitals Group. It could be representatives of any of the model 4 hospitals sitting here discussing these challenges. They are nearly universal in healthcare here, in the UK and in Europe at the moment. We will try to drive anything that is positive that we can implement with the appropriate resources.

Ms Maria Bridgeman

Certainly, we are quite innovative in our approach in the mid-west as well. From the community perspective, we work very closely in collaboration with our colleagues in the hospital. We have a bed capacity across the community services of 492 beds, which Dr. O’Connor referenced earlier, 342 of which are for long-stay or nursing home support scheme, NHSS, capacity. We have a total rehab complement of 88 beds, of which 25 of those have come on stream over the past year or year and a half. In addition to that, we have 75 transitional short-stay contracted beds with private providers across the system. We have quite a number of beds available for that transitional care.

In addition to what Professor Cowan said, I am now currently the chair of the mid-west interagency group. Therefore, I chair the group with the Garda and county councils of the three counties and my colleague, Professor Cowan, is on that group with us. We have quite a lot of different initiatives ongoing with the county council, for example, healthy communities and age friendly initiatives. Our health and well-being department, particularly, works very closely with them. We sit on their local community development committees, LCDCs, and we are also involved in developing LCPs with them. There is quite a lot of active work going on there.

We are also currently working with the Garda in respect of developing a new project, for which we have put in a bid to the Estimates. It will have HSE clinicians working closely with the Garda in dealing with vulnerable people who are in crisis at that particular time. That is a project we hope will get funded and come on stream. Again, that will certainly help patients go to the right care and place and avoid either ending up in a jail cell or in the emergency department.

We hope that this will be funded. In addition to helping people avoid coming to the hospital., we have seen a significant increase in funding and in access to diagnostics. As Professor Cowan noted in her opening statement, GPs now have direct access to a number of diagnostics and since this has been introduced, there have been over 10,000 referrals. In addition, last week we commenced a mobile diagnostic service in the mid-west. As an example, up to yesterday, 12 people have used this mobile diagnostic system and as a result, ten people avoided hospital because they had their results and therefore did not have to go. There is a huge amount of innovative work and a lot of initiatives happening across the community services that will have an impact on emergency departments and on hospital avoidance but most importantly, will help benefit the people of the mid-west and the patients by providing care, as per Sláintecare, nearer to home where they want it and getting the right care in the right place. The financial impact of what we have been given in the community will really be very beneficial going forward.

Can I ask two additional questions? I am replacing Senator Kyne today.

On mental health services and children, there is no children's unit in UHL at present. Are there any plans around that?

The second question relates to shortages. While the hospital is openly recruiting, there is also the increased capacity coming down the line with the 98 additional beds. Are there plans in place to find staff for that, including nurses, clinicians and consultants?

Professor Colette Cowan

On the staffing side of it, we have a reputation for building new facilities and opening them and delivering on time. The committee has already been stood up for the 96-bed block and the HR teams are already going to recruitment fairs to recruit staff for it. We know what the staffing requirements are and a significant bid for those has been approved and we will work on that over the next 18 months.

Regarding plans for a child and adolescent mental health services, CAMHS, unit on site, there is no plan. There is a CAMHS unit in Merlin Park University Hospital in Galway and that is the region but I will defer to my colleague, Ms Bridgeman, who knows best how to answer that.

Ms Maria Bridgeman

I thank Senator Maria Byrne for raising this. Our long-term plan and vision is that we are looking forward to developing the St. Joseph's Hospital health campus on Mulgrave Street. One of the bits we have proposed as part of that is a CAMHS residential unit. However, that is very much in the longer term. Currently, we have secured moneys for a new project for a CAMHS hub in Limerick city and we plan to base that in the St. Joseph's Hospital complex at the moment. In addition to that, it will provide telehealth medicine and will be a support for children as they step up and step down from the CAMHS unit in Galway, for example. We have secured 4.5 whole-time equivalents, WTEs, for that and the 0.5 equivalent is a consultant. This is just a newly developed project so that is very good.

In respect of mental health for children with intellectual disability, a consultant is being recruited and processed at the moment. This will be based in Limerick and will also be a regional service.

We also have a youth advocate programme in place for children and this is a six-month intensive outreach programme for children attending CAMHS. It gives them some personal assistance support hours to help them to engage with society and with their families. It has commenced as a pilot in east Limerick this September and we are hoping, based on evaluation of this pilot, to expand it further.

I thank the representatives of the HSE and University Hospital Limerick for assisting the committee on this important matter. The committee will continue to keep this under consideration given the need for a big improvement in the experience of members of the public relying on the services of the hospital. We mentioned the hospital's winter plan. If the witnesses forward that on to the committee we can take it as part of the session we will have on the winter plan itself.

Ms Mary Day

If I might add a final point, as the new national director in acute operations, which both Professor O'Connor and I are representing, we wish to assure the committee of our ongoing commitment to University Hospital Limerick, to CHO 3 and to the citizens. I have worked with Professor Cowan and the team in a different role over the years and I can assure members that there is a huge amount of innovation and ongoing hard work and there is complete competence in the management team delivering it.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.36 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 28 September 2022.
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