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Joint Committee on Health debate -
Wednesday, 4 Oct 2023

HIQA Report 2022: Discussion

Apologies have been received from Senators Frances Black and Annie Hoey. Minutes of the committee meetings of September 26, 27 and 28 have been circulated to members for consideration. Are they agreed? Agreed.

The purpose of the meeting today is for the joint committee to consider the 2022 annual report published by HIQA as well as other reports published by the body. To assist the committee to consider this matter I am pleased to welcome from HIQA, Ms Angela Fitzgerald, CEO; Ms Carol Grogan, chief inspector of social services; Ms Máirín Ryan, deputy CEO and director of health technology assessment; Ms Rachel Flynn, director of health information and standards; Mr. Sean Egan, director of healthcare.

Witnesses are reminded of the longstanding parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name, or in such a way as to make him, her or it, identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if your statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity you will be directed to discontinue your remarks. It is imperative that you comply with any such direction.

Members are also reminded of the longstanding parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside of the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I will ask any member attending the meeting via MS Teams that prior to making their contribution to the meeting that they confirm that they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.

To commence our consideration of the HIQA 2022 annual report and other reports which might be of interest to the committee, I now invite Ms Angela Fitzgerald to make her opening statement.

Ms Angela Fitzgerald

I thank the committee for the opportunity to present the key features of our 2022 annual report. I am joined by my colleagues Ms Máirín Ryan, deputy CEO and director of health technology assessment; Ms Carol Grogan, chief inspector of social services; Ms Rachel Flynn, director of health information and standards; and Mr. Sean Egan, director of healthcare. I will invite them to address questions relevant to their areas of expertise, with the committee's agreement.

I would like to take the opportunity to acknowledge the work of this committee in proposing changes and improvements in the way that health and social care services are delivered in Ireland. I took up the position of CEO of HIQA last year. During that time, I have been pleased to see some progress in a number of areas, particularly in the aftermath of the pandemic as services sought to reinstate normal activities and as we sought to reinstate our own normal business with regulated entities.

Our remit is expanding rapidly into new sectors and service areas. Over the coming years, we will see a significant expansion in the areas and sectors in which we have responsibility for regulation. That will bring opportunity and challenge. Right now, we are working to prepare for the commencement of the Patient Safety (Notifiable Incidents and Open Disclosure) Act 2023, which has been signed into law by the President. We hope it will be commenced in the coming months. The legislation will bring new responsibilities for HIQA in respect of the private hospital sector, which is welcome, particularly relating to notifiable incidents for all hospitals. I know the committee has a particular interest in that area. Other key areas of focus for HIQA are the preparation for the Human Tissue (Transplantation, Post-Mortem, Anatomical Examination and Public Display) Bill 2022, the regulation and monitoring of home care services, and issues relating to international protection accommodation services, IPAS. A number of those issues have been considered by the committee.

One of the areas with which most people associate HIQA is the regulation of social services. The chief inspector within the authority is responsible under the Health Act 2007 for the regulation of designated centres for adults and children with disabilities, older persons and children's special care units. In 2022, more than 2,000 inspections were carried out across designated centres for people with disabilities, older persons' services and children's services. In our inspections over the course of the year, we were pleased to see the benefits for residents as Covid restrictions eased and normal activities were resumed. As outlined in our overview report on the regulation of disability centres, published on Monday, some providers used remote oversight arrangements during the pandemic, which we know had an adverse impact on overall compliance. We are working closely with providers to reinstate strong governance arrangements. We know from all the work we do that strong governance and management are a core requirement of safe service provision.

A key focus of our inspections is to ensure the rights of people living in residential services are respected and promoted. In the past year, since I took up this job, I have been asked to speak at a number of sessions. The message that has the greatest impact is around this particular responsibility of putting the rights of individuals who use our services at the centre of what we do. It is really important that we continue to promote that. We have seen from the data for 2022 that where centres have a good standard of care and support, it is underpinned by strong governance and management. While the majority of centres provide good care, there are some areas of concern. We continue to use the regulatory powers Ms Grogan has and the monitoring powers Mr. Egan has to drive improvements in the quality and care provided.

Members may be aware that in 2022, we commenced a new programme of inspections in acute and community healthcare settings against standards that have been available for a number of years, namely, the national standards for safer, better healthcare. In December, we published a report of our initial findings from the first seven emergency departments, EDs, we inspected. That report received considerable media and other focus. We sought to widen the debate around the core issues that impact on safe care in EDs. Specifically, we identified four areas as requiring immediate and longer-term focus. First is delivering on immediate and medium-term capacity requirements across the whole healthcare system. This committee has much to say about that. As members know, it is not just about acute beds; it is also about community provision. Another key point is the need for a more effective approach to strategic workforce planning to better anticipate and manage shortages or pressures on individual days. Our inspection process has sought to amplify that. As I mentioned, a key requirement is responsive leadership, governance and management arrangements at local, regional and national level that seek to address performance issues as they are identified and get upstream of and anticipate those issues. The fourth area, which is at the heart of what we do, is monitoring and managing patient safety risks.

As we moved into 2023, these themes remained central to our work. We have seen some good examples of improvements. However, a number of hospital EDs are failing to meet the requirements of the national standards because they remain overcrowded. The link between overcrowding and safety risk is well established. It must also be said that in those same hospitals, when we stepped beyond the emergency departments, we found examples of good practice in other areas. Tackling the factors that contribute to ED pressures is a core issue. In recent weeks, we published reports for Beaumont and Waterford hospitals, which are good examples of what good practice looks like. Throughout our work, we try to amplify what good practice looks like and what underpins it. From the work we have done, it is about three or four key things. It is about facilities having the appropriate capacity to do the work they are charged to do and having good systems and processes for managing demand and using that capacity effectively, particularly in the areas of managing elective and emergency patient flow. It is about the deployment of overall resources. Critically, it is about having good systems for measuring and evaluating performance. Through this work and the work in Ms Grogan's area, we continue to advocate on behalf of patients and the public with the aim of achieving a sustained improvement in these areas.

At the time I went for the job in HIQA, most people associated the authority with its regulatory role, which is very well understood. People probably understood a little less our role in health technology assessment, HTA. That has changed, which is welcome. The experience during the Covid period was that rapid HTAs were critical in informing decision-making and securing population understanding and buy-in. That particular role has been there from HIQA's inception and it is growing and becoming much more valuable in how we do our work. Ms Ryan is director of health technology assessment. We contribute to that area of work in a number of ways, of which we give more detail in the statement circulated to members. We contribute to the development of clinical guidelines and national clinical audit. We played a significant role in the work of the National Public Health Emergency Team, NPHET. In the past 12 months, we have contributed to HTAs that inform decision-making on childhood immunisation, the addition of severe combined immunodeficiency, SCID, to the newborn screening programme, metabolic surgery and the repatriation of paediatric stem cell transplant services. The scope of what we do is very wide. We recently published a number of evidence reports on long Covid. Some of that work has been the subject of discussion in the committee. We are contributing to a new public health strategy. We also contribute significantly on the international stage. Ms Ryan, in particular, is recognised as an international leader in Europe and beyond on evidence synthesis work, where we seek to learn from others about best practice and to embed that in the Irish health system. We are very proud that we are leading out in this area and we want to continue to do so.

Safe systems and effective healthcare are underpinned by standards. There is a lot of debate about where standards should be set, whether at the level at which they can be delivered or the level at which they should be. The view we generally hold is that we should seek to set the bar where it should be and support the system to get there. Ms Flynn and her team have a significant brief in the area of evidence-based standards. In the current year alone, we are seeking to finalise standards in the area of children's health and social services. That area is particularly interesting because we have taken an approach of following the child across all the settings. With the establishment of regional health areas, it is important that we look to make that join because children move between many different settings.

We are also charged with developing the standards for home support. One of the things we try to do in this regard is put in implementation tools. The phrase I use is that the game is played on grass, not on paper. It is really important that we work with providers to support them in implementing the standards.

HIQA has statutory responsibilities in the whole area of health information. We are very pleased to see the health information Bill is beginning to go through the various stages of development. We have been keen in calling for a standardising of the approach to health information. We have particular roles in the evaluation of the quality of information. We play a role in providing evidence to inform national policy. We are working closely at this time with the Department of Health on the health information Bill.

There has been much discussion about digital health. As a regulator, we in HIQA know the future of health regulation is data-driven, and technology is central to that.

We also know that digital health is central to being able to manage patients and users safely. We have a very important role, both nationally and internationally, in that space.

When we listen to when things go wrong, we learn that at the heart of it is how people experience the service. One of the important roles we have is listening and responding to service users. We have been part of a collaboration with the HSE, the Department of Health and advocacy groups through the care experience programme, which seeks to hear at first hand how patients and service users experience our services. The findings are very reassuring in the main - they show that the majority of people have a very good experience - but they also point to key areas of improvement, particularly as regards communication and supporting patients as they move through their journey. We have extended our remit. We did the first national patient bereavement survey, which required us to think differently about how we approach that. We also launched the national nursing home experience survey last year. That had very powerful findings for us as regards the experience of services. We are moving into end-of-life care, cancer and mental health.

Before I conclude, I will briefly touch on our values as an organisation. I have said already that a key theme in what we do is adopting a human rights-based approach. Members will see that right across the standards we develop, the guidance we produce and how we regulate health and social services. We also try to support the people who provide our services to understand this better. Almost 35,000 people went through our e-learning rights-based approaches, which is reassuring. An important part for us is to continue to engage with our stakeholders and to make sure that we are doing a good job and that those who use our services can continue to be heard. That is important for us because we have to sense-check everything we do with the people for whom we are responsible. We have learned a lot about our approach to that and we continue to change that. This process is part of that overall role as well. We see ourselves as having an important role in advocating for regulatory reform and a review of all the regulations relevant to our role. We are happy to talk about some of those here today.

We very much welcome the opportunity to be here and to share with the committee some of the experiences we have had in the past year and the work we are doing now. We thank Members for their time and look forward to taking any questions from them.

Thank you, Ms Fitzgerald. You might indicate who you think would be best placed to answer the questions as part of the process. That would be really helpful. I will start with Senator Conway.

I thank the senior management team from HIQA for coming here today and for their opening statement. The area of the statement I am particularly interested in relates to HIQA's inspections of emergency departments. I will be quite frank with the witnesses: people in my area believe that HIQA has let the people of the mid-west down because of the situation in the emergency department at University Hospital Limerick, UHL. I would like the witnesses to give us an overview as to what co-operation, if any, HIQA has got from the management team at UHL and, critically, what follow-up has happened following its inspections of the emergency department. I am sure the witnesses are well aware that more than 100 people are on trolleys in UHL daily at this stage. Many of them are from the constituency in which I live and some of them are my friends. They feel the whole system, including HIQA, has let them down. The witnesses might comment on specifically what HIQA has done as a regulatory inspection organisation to assist in resolving the serious situation that exists at UHL.

Ms Angela Fitzgerald

My background is in the hospital area and I agree that where people have to wait for excessive periods, the impact on their care, on their families and on their whole experience is far from ideal.

With specific reference to Limerick, I will make a couple of points and then hand over to Mr. Egan. We know, and we called out very clearly in the first report we did in respect of Limerick, the first site inspection, that the hospital failed to comply on all the standards we looked at. We were very strong on the impact the overcrowding was having on the people who were experiencing the service. We did seek to separate that from the hard work that was being done by the front-line staff on the ground.

I agree with Ms Fitzgerald. That is why I specifically mentioned the emergency department, and I want to stay focused on the emergency department specifically.

Ms Angela Fitzgerald

Staying with the emergency department, then, we called out three main things. First, it is one of the busiest emergency departments and has the smallest bed base of the model 4 hospitals relative to its size. The requirement for the 96 beds, which are now going in, is welcome, but it is very clear that this is not sufficient. We have been strong in advocating for the second group of beds to go in there.

Second, and as I said in my opening statement, having the beds is necessary but it is not sufficient. Managing the beds effectively is the second piece. In our first inspection and in our follow-up inspection we called out very clearly the nature of the changes we felt needed to take place. I will ask Mr. Egan to comment further on that.

Third, we tried to be fair and proportionate in our approach to what was within Limerick's gift, but we also engaged with the HSE more widely around the issues we felt were outside the hospital's remit. There are also challenges in the community as regards primary and community services that are central to resolving the issues in Limerick.

In summary, we saw in our second inspection some improvements, but we know that the capacity is the single biggest issue there. We also know there is more work to be done as regards internal capability, but I might-----

Maybe if Ms Fitzgerald could just-----

Sorry, Senator Conway. Will you-----

Before Mr. Egan comes in, if we could just develop the point, when did HIQA carry out its second inspection?

Mr. Sean Egan

The second inspection was in February of this year.

What engagement has happened since February until now?

Mr. Sean Egan

We have conducted two inspections in Limerick over the past 18 months. First, we echo completely the concerns that have been raised about the impact of overcrowding in that hospital. It is extreme. It is the worst performer in the country. One of the early inspections we conducted in our new programme of inspection was in Limerick, to shine a light on the conditions and seek improvement as regards the findings we raised. When we conduct inspections we expect that a compliance plan is formulated by the hospital and we follow up with the hospital at regular intervals, not necessarily always through inspection but through the review of documentation and other evidence, to confirm that it is moving in the correct direction in the implementation of the recommendations. There was a comprehensive compliance plan provided when we conducted our inspection in March of last year. The reinspection we conducted in February of this year was able to point to some improvement as regards the way the hospital was managing the situation. One of the key issues we found last year was that it was significantly understaffed in the context of nursing staff in the emergency department. That issue was remedied relatively quickly following our inspection but, as our CEO outlined, at the fundamental root of this is that in Limerick there is a deficit in capacity relative to demand. That capacity will be addressed with the addition of extra bed capacity, but that will take some time to actually implement, so-----

It is reasonable, then, for me to assume that the witnesses or their team has been engaging since February with UHL. Have they found the experience frustrating? Have they found the slow pace of change frustrating? Are they frustrated with University Limerick Hospitals Group? Are they frustrated with the HSE? I would like their view on this.

Mr. Sean Egan

We have been engaging with both the hospital and the hospital group and the HSE on this issue. It is one of our key priorities in terms of engagement at every level in the HSE because it is a serious patient issue. From our perspective, there has been no frustration in the engagement. Any information we have sought has been provided to us. We have also been provided with comprehensive plans. We can see a degree of movement on a number of the issues that are moveable in the short term, particularly around staffing levels, which is important from a safety perspective. Equally, there have been changes to the way they do their business. Those changes, by the HSE's own admission, are all a work in progress but, at the same time, one of the key issues here is capacity. There has been movement in building that additional capacity. We expect the first tranche of that to arrive in the next 18 months.

I thank Mr. Egan. I want to ask the CEO a further question. HIQA now has inspection powers in respect of direct provision centres. Has it inspected any centres yet?

Ms Angela Fitzgerald

We will have those powers; we are waiting for the regulatory framework to be completed. We understand that that is imminent and will happen in the coming weeks. We will have inspection powers for permanent centres once the commencement-----

Does the authority believe it should have powers to inspect temporary centres emergency accommodation?

Ms Angela Fitzgerald

We were asked to step into this space on an interim basis pending further decisions in respect of this space. We have not been asked to look at temporary accommodation, and I suppose the landscape is changing all the time. We work very closely with the Department and the Minister. We will be open to working in that space if we are required to do so.

I have no doubt that the authority has been doing preliminary work in this area given the fact that the powers are about to be transferred to the authority. From the preliminary work the authority has done, would Ms Fitzgerald be concerned about some of the permanent direct provision centres in the context of the standard of care on offer, overcrowding and so on? HIQA would have responsibility to share information in that regard with us if it has such concerns.

Ms Angela Fitzgerald

I will ask Mr. Egan to talk more generally about the preliminary work we have done and the engagement we have had with the sector.

Mr. Sean Egan

We have done significant preliminary work in preparation for a role which we believe will be imminent with the signing of legislation in the coming weeks. On the work we have done, extensive engagement has taken place with providers to further familiarise them with the standards. We conducted three pilot inspections at the beginning of this year to determine the appropriateness of our framework. That would be standard practice with a new programme such as this. We have also conducted on-site engagement with every other permanent provider in the country. Through the pilot inspections, we have identified that the accommodation is very overcrowded. That reflects the realities of the situation we find ourselves in with regard to the wider accommodation issues in the State. Equally, we found a number of issues that could be addressed relatively quickly as a result of the pilot inspections. We found room for improvement with regard to the application process-----

Was there any centre at which HIQA did a pilot or test inspection - whatever term one wishes to use - and in respect of which it came to the view that the centre should be closed down?

Mr. Sean Egan

Certainly, where there were any issues which needed to be improved were found, these were identified to the providers involved and addressed by them. We did not find any situation where there was an immediate requirement to shut those services down, nor would we have the power to do that under the intended role for us. However, we identified, through the preliminary work we have done, that there is a role for monitoring and for public scrutiny on the standards of care. Through all of our experience and the work we have done, we believe and can show evidence of the fact that when services are inspected and the findings are reported, it drives standards forward. We look forward to progressing that work as we assume the new role.

I thank Mr. Egan and the Chair.

Before we leave this issue, and I know that this seems an obvious question, but how does HIQA differentiate between the permanent and the temporary facilities?

Mr. Sean Egan

That is an assignation which is made by the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. There are services which are more established. As we understand it, the legislation will outline and define those legally. Currently, we believe that there are 48 or 49 services that will fall under the permanent designation.

I thank Mr. Egan. Deputy Cullinane is next.

I welcome Ms Fitzgerald and her team. I thank HIQA first for the work it does and I thank all of its team. It is very important that we have strong regulation because that ensures we have quality and safe care. I hold HIQA in high regard in the context of the work it does, which often receives criticism, but I recognise the value of that regulatory work.

My first question is on the issue of emergency departments. Perhaps I might address this question to Mr. Egan first because he is the person who oversees that work. It is good that HIQA has looked at those hospitals which are not performing well, but has also looked at those hospitals which are performing better. It is not perfect in any hospital but certainly University Hospital Waterford and other hospitals have been identified as doing better. It is very important to learn from that and to look at what is best practice and to mandate that best practice across all hospitals, as far as I would see it. Given that HIQA has looked at the good and the bad - when I say bad, it is not all bad in hospitals but may not be as good as other hospitals - and HIQA publishes its report, what level of engagement does HIQA then have at the highest level with the HSE in order that the latter can take learnings from the authority’s reports?

When it visits emergency departments and hospitals and gets an understanding of what is happening, does HIQA also meet with the chief officers of community services to get a glimpse of what is happening there? I want to get to the point which Ms Fitzgerald made, which is that what happens outside of hospitals can be as much a driver of long wait times as capacity problems. I would like to start with those questions, please.

Mr. Sean Egan

I thank the Deputy very much for his questions. I agree with him that it is important, through our work, to identify what we find - good and bad. There is certainly learning that can be applied. If we take, for example, the recent inspections we conducted at University Hospital Waterford and Beaumont Hospital in Dublin, reports on which we published recently, we can see that two hospitals which have had significant problems with overcrowding historically have definitely turned the ship around. There is a sustained improvement at both of those hospitals. There were very clear examples of measures they had introduced which are directly applicable to other services. They have changed much of the way they do their business when it comes to processes. They have streamlined the way they manage patients, they have ensured their staffing levels are correct, and, in both instances, they have increased the amount of capacity available, both with regard to inpatient services and in the community.

The Deputy asked about the level of engagement at senior level within the HSE. We regularly engage at all levels within the HSE. It is fair to say that improvement is often within the gift of local management. In some instances, it is not and requires a more concerted report at senior level. One of the key things we need to try to differentiate in our work is to discover where is the appropriate way and place to engage within the HSE in order to ensure that we have the maximum impact. We publish all of our work. All of our inspection reports are in the public domain which we believe is important with regard to public scrutiny but is also important with regard to driving learning across the system.

With regard to our experience-----

Is HIQA on or represented on the emergency department task force?

Mr. Sean Egan

We are not currently represented on the task force. As a regulator, it is important that we maintain an independent role as an entity that monitors from the side. We have the powers and abilities to intervene with regard to inspection in any service at any time. That is an important function which we serve in the public interest.

The Deputy mentioned the chief officer piece. I completely agree with him that it is important to look not just at acute services in the context of understanding and addressing the issues of overcrowding. Our Overview Report from last year highlighted the importance of having an end-to-end approach to the provision of services in order that patients who do not need to be treated in an acute setting can be treated in a more appropriate setting in the community and that there should be an ability to step down from acute services for patients who finish their acute period of care.

If we look at the follow-up inspection we did in University Hospital Limerick early this year, we took a very broad view of services in the regions to gain a full understanding. We met with the chief officer in that region together with management staff. Importantly, we also met with local GPs to gain an understanding from them with regard to where things are and the capacity challenges they have. There certainly was learning, and we have reflected that in the report. As we proceed further, the ability to look at things end to end can be enhanced through our inspection approach.

Just to follow up on that point, we have regular meetings with the officials from the Department of Health and the HSE who are establishing the regional health areas. The purpose of those areas is to better integrate acute, primary and community care to ensure that we do not have silos and that where we have blockages in communities which have an impact on hospitals, that, hopefully, we will have single tiers of management which can make decisions. There are many learnings from HIQA’s own reports.

Ms Fitzgerald spoke about managing beds. It is not all about more beds. We need more beds but we also need to manage the beds we have. Is that, in part, reflecting this issue that, at times, we do not have the step-down and recovery beds in the community or that sometimes people are in the wrong place at the wrong time because of a lack of alternative care pathways in the community? Is that partly the issue? I know there are other issues in terms of managing beds.

Ms Angela Fitzgerald

It is probably both. Mr. Egan described our experience very well.

It was probably a new approach to begin to extend the healthcare monitoring and inspection remit into the community. We did it for that very reason. It is about leveraging the capacity you have but also incentivising. People visit hospitals but they live in the community. We are trying to support responses that help people to move back into the community rather than be pushed out.

Has HIQA been asked formally to feed in its outputs from the reports into the regional health area, RHA, process?

Ms Angela Fitzgerald

I met Mr. Liam Woods, who is planning the design. I had a meeting with him last week to look at the options for integration. I had very strong views around the levels of integration and if we do not bring it right down. I have worked in both systems. I worked in a hospital-only role and in a regional role. You will get change where accountability lies. We are very strong on that. Some of the regulatory framework, which we have also spoken about, possibly does not enable the use of beds in the best possible way. We will seek how to support change so that it is less relevant and we move towards service rather than setting. For example, there are grey areas around step-down beds and where the accountability and oversight are.

My other questions relate to health technology assessments. They are a really useful part of HIQA's work. We all value those data because they are the gold dust. Clinicians can argue all day long but once the data are put in front of them, that is it, it is the end of the discussion. That is why it is so important. We met the chair of HIQA yesterday in private session. I mentioned that it can be very frustrating for me and other members of the committee when we table parliamentary questions to the Department of Health or the HSE and, in some cases, the answer is that they do not capture those data, the systems do not allow for the capture of those data or there is no integrated financial management system. It is well known that we have deficits in technology in healthcare and so on. While the work HIQA does is useful, what impact does not having the appropriate investment in digital technology have? There is still discussion about unique patient identifiers and electronic patient records. Some systems do not speak to each other. The children's disability services is one area which is really problematic and in which data cannot be captured. As the software is outdated and the company that provided the software went bust, a whole new system must be built. There is an issue in relation to digital transformation in healthcare. In the absence of moving in this space, how difficult does it make HIQA's job in terms of the health technology assessment tool?

Ms Angela Fitzgerald

There are some links but they are probably quite discrete. To take the core point, the limitations in technology and how they limit delivery of the services and work we do, Ms Flynn has a role in relation to health information standards. I will ask her to contribute on the point in a minute. We called out very clearly in a document published in 2021 the requirement for an integrated information system that allows for a couple of things, one of which is the ability for us to track patients and service users because they move within and across settings. The current systems do not always allow us to track that information. The Deputy will know that from some of the parliamentary questions he raised. The second thing is, if we have learned from Covid, we have learned that having a unique identifier is a core requirement to enable that. Thankfully, the health information Bill seeks to deliver that. In the interim, there is fragmentation in systems. I lived through the cyberattack and the hospital system was paralysed but, perversely, the community system, because it was so paper-based, experienced less of an impact. The challenges of that were amplified by Covid. The requirement for digital transformation and a digital strategy that enables safe movement of data, personal data particularly, within and across settings, are central. I will ask Ms Flynn and Ms Ryan to explain a little bit about whether it impacts health technology as it is a slightly different point.

Ms Rachel Flynn

In all of our national standards, we talk about the use of information and the need for information in order to deliver high-quality and safe services. As Ms Fitzgerald referenced, in 2021, we did a review of how other countries, which are probably more advanced than Ireland, have been successful in implementing digital solutions for high-quality and safe services and what they had in place that was different from Ireland. The first was having a clear strategy in terms of what was going to be delivered and that it was realistic. Previous strategies have been in place but they were very ambitious regarding implementing electronic health records, patient summary records and community health records. All of that is needed but it has to be prioritised relative to where we are coming from in Ireland. Concerning legislation, which Ms Fitzgerald also mentioned, there was no health information legislation in place. Thankfully, that has progressed as in April this year, the principles around the health information Bill 2023 were published, which outline what the next direction of travel will be around electronic health records, EHRs, and so on. Standards and interoperability are key features in this regard. We earlier referenced the RHAs. As we move to the regions, we must make sure that data are standardised and can be shared across sectors. We are definitely behind the curve in terms of national information systems. There is investment in the area. There has been increased investment made within the HSE to improve that. Projects such as e-prescribing, summary care records and shared care records have been advanced in the HSE as well. It is very important that there is a standardised approach. HIQA has a role in setting national standards for health information. We have done so in the areas of e-prescribing, summary care records and shared care records. The issue leads to on to an absence of information, which my colleague Dr. Ryan will speak about in terms of her conducting HTAs and where those deficits lie.

Dr. Máirín Ryan

The Deputy is absolutely right that it poses a serious challenge for us in terms of doing health technology assessments and the other types of evidence synthesis we perform to inform decision-making. One area concerns epidemiology, for example, how many patients in Ireland have a particular condition and the clinical outcomes with the system as it is currently structured, before we look to the new technology we want to implement to try to improve clinical outcomes. It depends on the area of practice. For example, in the cancer area, there is the National Cancer Registry, which is a rich source of data in terms of knowing how many people have a particular cancer and the clinical outcomes of the treatment we provide at the moment. It is rare that we have those kinds of data. In such circumstances, we end up looking to other countries with more sophisticated systems than we do, such as electronic health records, with populations or healthcare systems that are reasonably similar to ours. We have to take account of those uncertainties when using those kinds of data to make conclusions. Similarly, when looking at clinical effectiveness, the gold standard is randomised control trials, which is the international evidence base. If you had it, you would also look at real-world evidence. We really do not have real-world evidence here in terms of outcomes that countries like the Nordic countries do. They have really good observational databases and registries in which you can see the outcomes of particular interventions.

The other aspect of what we do is looking at value for money. In order to do that, we need to know what care costs. There are a lot of limitations in trying to estimate costs, what the cost of current standard of care is and what the cost of care will be when we implement the new programme. There are some databases such as the hospital in-patient enquiry, HIPE, system for the cost of hospital care, the primary care reimbursement service, PCRS for the cost of medicines and so on but there also are limitations to those databases, as I am sure the Deputy is well aware. If we had the electronic health record that captured all of the resource use along a patient's journey, that would make life much easier for us. We take different steps to mitigate the uncertainty that comes with the challenges with data.

I call Deputy Hourigan. Will she confirm that she is on the Leinster House campus?

I am. I am contributing from my office. I have a sick child on a couch, unfortunately. I thank the witnesses for their time today. I have several questions, some of which are quite short. We were expecting a workforce planning document from the Department this month.

Unfortunately that seems to have been delayed. In response to parliamentary questions the Minister had indicated that HIQA will have a role in the creation of that workforce planning document. When is the last time the HIQA met the Department on that issue?

Ms Angela Fitzgerald

I am not quite sure. We produce our own workforce document for ourselves but we are not part of the HSE's workforce planning document. We do not have a role or remit-----

Does HIQA not set the national standards for safer better healthcare?

Ms Angela Fitzgerald

I am not quite sure where-----

Ms Rachel Flynn

We set the national standards for safer better healthcare. We have a process in place and then they are approved by the Minister so they are seen as ministerial standards.

So HIQA has no role in the workforce planning document they are creating for the next ten years.

Mr. Sean Egan

We do not have a role with the plan the HSE may need to put in place for workforce planning. On inspection, we look at the level of staffing in particular areas that we inspect. One area on which we have had some engagement with the Department of Health is related to the safer staffing framework around nursing. This is a relatively new initiative that has been driven by the Government and is being implemented by the HSE. Through our inspections, and particularly in emergency departments, we have seen a progression in the implementation of that particular element of staffing. Obviously nursing staffing is a critical part of the workforce within healthcare. It is not the only part of the health service but we have a role in terms of monitoring and we have a role in setting standards at the principal base level but we would not have a direct role in the specifics of workforce planning down to the ground delivery.

Into the future - not in the current ten-year plan the Department is trying to create - I will take it from what the witnesses have said that HIQA has not met with them. No. Okay, thank you.

Would it be possible to get a quick update on the expansion of cancer screening programmes? HIQA is tasked with looking at the age range eligibility for bowel screening and BreastCheck.

Dr. Máirín Ryan

Yes. We have a current work plan and the next health technology assessment, HTA, we will look at is the bowel screen one. This is the next one on the agenda. Then there is the extension to the screening age, and the ages for BreastCheck would follow on after that.

Could we get a timeline for that?

Dr. Máirín Ryan

The bowel screen HTA should be starting around now. Including the public consultation to happen at the end of it, it will take about 15 months to complete.

Does it come to BreastCheck after that?

Dr. Máirín Ryan

We have another HTA that will start quite soon to look at AAA screening in men. Whichever HTA finishes first, the next one after that is the extension to the age range for BreastCheck. I imagine that BreastCheck would probably start within 12 to 15 months.

Is that also a 15-month process?

Dr. Máirín Ryan

Yes. It will be.

That puts us into at least 2026 before any changes in that age eligibility standard.

Dr. Máirín Ryan

Yes, anticipating that the process will depend on the result of the HTA and then the advice from the national screening advisory committee to the Minister. Yes I would believe so.

I thank Dr. Ryan.

I now want to move into a different area. I am trying to get an understanding of the nature of some of the inspections. I am trying to understand. I have been trawling through HIQA reports, and I have also done so in the past for different issues, but now I am trying to understand the quality assurance aspect as it relates to procurement within HIQA inspections, whether they be scheduled or unscheduled inspections. I am trying to get a sense of when HIQA goes on site. Will Mr. Egan take me through how HIQA interacts with quality assurance and procurement on site in a hospital, for example?

Mr. Sean Egan

The national standards for safer and better healthcare are very broad. There are 45 national standards. When we conduct an inspection, we have a number of different ways to do that. We have a standardised approach to inspection, which is outlined in the annual report launched last year. It takes a particular view of 11 of the national standards. That is a proactive standard approach to looking at a sample of the important standards and including governance. If we need to address specific issues, we also have the ability to conduct inspection in a more targeted way in response to risk issues should they emerge. Procurement is a part of governance and it is something we would touch on alongside all the other elements of governance within the service. If specific issues arise, it would be the kind of thing we might seek to probe more extensively. It is just one part of the broader evaluation of the many things we need to assess when we conduct an inspection.

As Mr. Egan has said, HIQA is tasked with governance and management arrangements in terms of its inspections. Could Mr. Egan outline for me, or characterise for me somehow, what he means by specific issues? That would imply that where issues are highlighted or raised already, HIQA undertakes a review of procurement or quality assurance. I have been through this in a previous life with other sectors. One is literally sitting down with files, seeing if they are they up to date, checking whether people have signed them, double checking that a person actually did sign, and then looking at the supply room. Am I to take it from the answer that unless specific issues are highlighted to HIQA, it is not doing those things?

Mr. Sean Egan

Like other regulators, we monitor and regulate on the basis of risk. Our information in relation to where risk issues may arise can come from many different sources. It can be generic risk that we know is an issue in any health care facility. The particular focus we take in our standard approach includes looking at the approach to the management of risk associated with medicines, and infection prevention and control. Within that clearly there is a procurement element around the governance of those particular issues. Equally, should risk issues arise through information that comes to our attention - we have a function around receipt of solicited or unsolicited information from staff members or from the public - that may form part of our assessment as we decide what to focus on within an inspection. It is important to realise that we need to prioritise on the basis of available information. Hospitals are extremely complex organisations and we need to focus on the issues that we are aware of and all of the sources of information that inform our intelligence as part of the monitoring process. We have the ability to probe as we need to through our inspection approach.

How is HIQA evaluating risk in relation to procurement?

Mr. Sean Egan

With procurement, our standard approach to inspection takes a particular focus on medicines and infection prevention and control. We are aware that those two areas are known internationally to be key areas of patient safety concern. The World Health Organization has identified medicines and infection control as a number of their patient safety goals. That is integrated into our assessment approach when we conduct an inspection.

Could Mr. Egan outline what that looks like for me? I am sorry to be a bit naive about it. Could Mr. Egan explain to me what that looks like on the ground when the inspector walks into a hospital and wants to look at procurement? I am presuming that even on things that are low risk - Mr. Egan has said that procurement is not low risk - just to understand or evaluate the risk level one would have to be doing fairly intermittent inspections that are a deeper dive essentially. I am just trying to understand, when HIQA walks into a hospital, what actions it is taking.

Mr. Sean Egan

We have a standard approach to inspection. It relies on the gathering and triangulation of evidence, whether it be gleaned through interview, review of documentation, talking with staff, understanding processes with people on the ground and asking them to walk through how we do things, looking at documentation, and looking at data. The approach we take with the general inspection is to assess similar information in all of the inspections we conduct so there is a degree of standardisation. If, however, there are specific risk issues that we seek to probe when planning an inspection, or if issues arise during the course of the inspection that we feel that we need to address, we have the ability to gather more information. This may include further follow-up with staff and it may include a request for further assurances or documentation to be provided after the inspection. We have the powers to assess any information on the basis of where we believe we need to gather the evidence to triangulate our findings.

I am sorry that I am almost at the end of my time. Will Mr. Egan outline for me in the context of what we have just discussed, the relationship between what HIQA inspects and what the Health Products Regulatory Authority, HPRA, does because it is my understanding it is tasked with market surveillance in this regard, not in general?

Mr. Sean Egan

Yes.

The HPRA is tasked with market surveillance and also seems to have a requirement to talk to patients and doctors to fill that requirement of market surveillance. HIQA has a requirement to oversee patient safety. What is the communication between HIQA and the HPRA and what are the interactions there? There seems to be an overlap in function and I am trying to understand where the lines are there.

Mr. Sean Egan

I think we have complementary functions. The HPRA is a product regulator so it has responsibility for the licensing of medicines and medical devices as they enter-----

I am sorry. I do not mean to cut across Mr. Egan but under the European legislation HPRA also has a vigilance requirement, so therefore it is in hospitals. I am just trying to understand where the two organisations meet.

Mr. Sean Egan

HPRA has a role around vigilance in the use of products and medicines in hospitals, and in community settings as well. From our perspective, a product arrives at a hospital and the organisation itself must create the safety systems for its use and practice. A lot of that relates to the governance of the various interventions that are brought into play. There is a requirement for the hospital itself to carefully manage the use of medicines or other products in practice, and to have systems around audit and training and making sure the appropriate people are using the products in the appropriate way. HIQA has a role in terms of overseeing that governance. Our specific focus is on medicines and infection prevention and control. As part of that, we look at the governance within the organisations to ensure that anything that may be product-related or that relates to ensuring safety is properly governed and assessed and that the appropriate controls are in place from the top-down of the organisation.

I hate to harp on about this but in terms of the communications. I thank Mr. Egan for that. It is really instructive because that would imply the auditing of that is really HIQA's area. Will Mr. Egan finish out the point as to whether the HPRA and HIQA have regular interactions? How do they communicate between the two organisations?

Mr. Sean Egan

We do talk to each other, clearly. It is mainly on an issues basis rather than there being a regular engagement. We work alongside HPRA in our complementary roles, so there is communication between both agencies and we have a complementary role.

When was the last time there was significant engagement?

Mr. Sean Egan

I met my counterpart in the context of medical device regulation approximately two months ago. That was a more general discussion around planning for challenges we would collectively need to manage in the context of artificial intelligence. Clearly, a lot of artificial intelligence products are products that will need to be regulated. As with any technology there is also a requirement to ensure it is applied safely in practice. It was a planning meeting to open up early discussions on how we will collectively address this issue that we know we will both need to manage in the future.

That was two months ago. Would that take place biannually?

Mr. Sean Egan

It is not a regular engagement in terms of being planned but if we need to have a discussion we will pick up the phone and if we need to meet on specific issues we will.

I thank Mr. Egan.

This is very informative and the work HIQA does on oversight and regulation is important. My first question is a very practical one. How many staff are in HIQA?

Ms Angela Fitzgerald

HIQA has an approved complement of 360 staff and at the moment it has just under 350 staff - around 344 staff. It varies. We have a vacancy factor of around 20 staff at the moment. In line with other sectors we see competition in the marketplace particularly in areas such as information technology, IT, and finance. We typically operate at approximately 360 staff and we now are just around 340 staff.

When was HIQA established?

Ms Angela Fitzgerald

HIQA was established in 2007.

In 2007. Regarding inspections, I will randomly select an emergency department, ED, when HIQA inspects does it come unannounced or announced?

Ms Angela Fitzgerald

We do both. In Ms Grogan's area, for example, more than 90% of those nursing homes are unannounced.

They are unannounced, so HIQA basically arrives on the day.

Ms Angela Fitzgerald

Yes. In Mr. Egan's area there are both, it depends. We do routine inspections and some of them are unannounced. We also do themed inspections that are typically more announced but I will ask Mr. Egan to comment on that.

Mr. Sean Egan

We do a mix of announced and unannounced inspections. The majority of our ED inspections are actually unannounced. There are benefits to either announced or unannounced inspections depending on what we seek to address. We reserve the right to do both and it is really around determining what the appropriate approach is related to known areas of risk.

If HIQA comes unannounced to an ED at, say, 10 o'clock in the morning, how many staff would HIQA have on its complement?

Mr. Sean Egan

It depends on the size of the facility. Normally, an inspection team is around three to four people.

What happens? Obviously Mr. Egan introduces himself and says the team are here to inspect. Does the team interview some of the staff, or even some of the people who are waiting in the ED?

Mr. Sean Egan

As explained during earlier questions, we take an approach that samples at various different levels of the organisation to gather the evidence we need. We meet front-line staff and senior management, and we also speak with patients. In all of our reports we take the time to try to introduce the patient voice as regards their experiences. Through the inspections we have conducted in emergency departments it has been quite powerful to outline the views of patients because clearly on those services that are very overcrowded it is really an assault on their privacy, their dignity and their rights. It is critically important that we do not just get carried away with systems, processes, and management structures but we actually speak to the people who are using the services. That is something that is central to our inspection approach.

Has Mr. Egan ever experienced resistance from, for instance, senior management regarding an announced, or unannounced inspection?

Mr. Sean Egan

We have been inspecting services now for a decade or more. Certainly, there is an understanding of what it is that we do. I would not say we are always the favourite person to walk in the door, particularly in an unannounced setting, but we have a job to do in the interest of the general public in terms of providing assurance. I have not experienced a situation where anyone has ever been obstructive or not complied with anything we have asked them to do. Our inspectors have a tough job to do. It is difficult to walk in the door, particularly unannounced, and to do the job they do but they always do it professionally. Our experience on the other side of the table is that there is a professionalism showing as well and there is co-operation.

When would the feedback as regards the medical setting be given back to management?

Mr. Sean Egan

Our standard approach to inspection is that at the end of the inspection, which may be a day or two days, we may provide high-level preliminary findings. If there are any immediate risk issues as well we would flag those to be remedied immediately as we find them. We would not leave the premises until we were satisfied any risk issues that were immediate had been addressed. We would confirm that before we go. Due to the nature of our inspections, and obviously hospitals in particular are very complex organisations, we need to take time to gather all of the evidence and assess it before we can make our final judgments. Preliminary feedback would be provided at the end of the inspection but with all of our inspections we produce an inspection report. It is very considered, it is triangulated evidence, and we go through a process with the provider to seek feedback from them in accordance with natural justice. We then publish all of our work. Within the report, as outlined previously, we also have a compliance plan we expect the provider to complete. What they are doing there is outlining how they will work to address any findings that we need to have addressed within a timebound fashion.

We hold them to account for the implementation of that plan.

The remit of HIQA is broad. It covers staff shortages and anything it observes on the day. I presume some inspections last more than a day.

Mr. Sean Egan

We have limited resources, as everyone does. Our standard approach to inspection is that it may be a one day or two day inspection with four people. That is an appropriate balance to gather the evidence we need to make the judgements we need to make against the standards we are looking at and to ensure we get around to all the hospitals we need to inspect. There is a balance to be struck between evidence gathered in one inspection and frequency of inspections across the board so we can maintain feet on the ground.

The Patient Safety (Notifiable Incidents and Open Disclosure) Act is a huge piece of work and other legislation will be coming through the Parliament in the coming months. How does HIQA envisage its capacity around the Act?

Ms Angela Fitzgerald

The Deputy is correct that the patient safety Act brings significant additional responsibilities for us in a few ways. One relates to private hospitals. For the first time we will have a role in monitoring activity of hospitals. We envisage we will conduct that role against standards in the way we do in public hospitals.

The second area relates to notifiable incidents. While by and large there is a well-developed system for serious notifiable incidents, it brings significant responsibilities for HIQA in healthcare settings but also in social care. The chief inspector, Ms Grogan, will have some additional responsibilities around individual events that she did not have before. The Deputy is correct to say it brings significant additional responsibility. At the moment, we are engaged with the Department in relation to planning for the commencement and part of that will be looking at the resources we require. Deputy Hourigan asked earlier about the workforce plan. While we are not contributing to the HSE's plan, we have developed a comprehensive workforce plan with the Department which envisages the expanded role in this and other areas. We have a good relationship with the Department. We are adequately resourced for what we do but we are stepping into, as the Deputy said-----

What powers will that give HIQA that it does not have already? The new legislation gives HIQA and the State more powers in relation to disclosure, but what does it give HIQA and where does its remit approach private hospitals?

Mr. Sean Egan

The patient safety Act is important legislation across a number of areas, specifically with regard to private hospitals. It extends our current monitoring role from publicly funded or provided services, into the private sector. We will have a remit for inspecting private hospitals in the same way we inspect public hospitals for the first time. We have a role in a defined area around radiation protection in the private sector which is well established at this stage, but with the commencement of the legislation we will have a role in conducting inspections in private healthcare. They will also be required under the legislation to notify us of serious patient safety incidents in the same way as public services will need to do so. It is quite a significant additional expansion of our remit.

My final question relates to the nursing home expert panel report. There was a significant number of recommendations about nursing home settings after the Covid-19 pandemic. Huge lessons were learned. Huge mistakes were made by the private and public sector in that environmental setting. What role and remit does HIQA have jurisdiction of as regards the report?

Ms Angela Fitzgerald

I will bring Ms Grogan in on some of this. The chief inspector has specific powers under the Health Act 2007, including powers of enforcement and powers to restrict the conditions of nursing homes and to cancel registration, so she has significant powers. Many of the lessons from the Covid-19 pandemic will be in the space around recognising that it was necessary to protect life during the early days of the pandemic but the effect of that was that we limited the experience of living for residents in nursing homes. That is already a focus of Ms Grogan's inspection. It was necessary to restrict a lot of the social model that nursing homes operate within - because they are homes - as regards people being able to come in but also people being able to experience normal living. We have tried to reflect that in our implementation. There are other specific recommendations from the nursing home expert panel that we are working to implement. I will ask Ms Grogan to comment on some of the lessons and approach.

Ms Carol Grogan

It was a powerful document and set of recommendations. We have been involved in working with the Department to advance some of those recommendations in regulatory changes, the first of which came into effect in March 2023. It enhanced the complaints regulation and the requirement for providers to support people to access advocacy services and also provided a clear direction to providers on how they should respond to and communicate around complaints. That is the first in a series of regulatory changes the Department intends to make. Coupled with that are some amendments that are proposed to the Act and specifically to my powers under the Health Act 2007, which I welcome. As Ms Fitzgerald outlined, there are quite blunt instruments in the Act at the moment. I can attach conditions to a registration. I can cancel the registration of a centre which is a blunt and disruptive-----

That means to close it down.

Ms Carol Grogan

Yes and that is hugely disruptive to residents and their families. I do not take that decision lightly. I have cancelled one registration this year. That means people have to move from their home.

That closes the place down.

Ms Carol Grogan

What happens in that case is that the providers are afforded an opportunity to make a representation. They have 28 days to respond to a proposed decision and then 28 days to appeal the decision to the District Court. In the event that they do not appeal or that the decision is upheld, the HSE takes over the centre pending alternative arrangements. In the case of that nursing home, the HSE is supporting residents to find alternative accommodation. There are still 21 residents in the centre. In the case of disability services, it sometimes works with a new provider to take over the running of a centre. That happened recently. One of the other areas in the amendment of the health Act, which will be useful, is shortening the timeframes. If I make a decision to put a condition on registration, the decision does not take effect during the 28 days and, if it is appealed to the District Court, while the case is ongoing, which can put residents at risk. It is proposed to shorten the timeframe to 14 days. In addition, it is proposed to give an additional power to me to issue a compliance notice to providers, which in effect would be a statutory warning. We use non-statutory warnings to good effect because the vast majority of providers in both disability and older persons services provide a very good, high-level of quality care. When we are in escalation we try to do it proportionately. We try to work with providers and we take that step when providers do not have the capacity to take action to address safety risks.

I presume it would be rare that HIQA has to go to court.

Ms Carol Grogan

It would be. We try everything because we know how disruptive it is. For example, I had been trying to work with the provider whose registration I cancelled recently for a year to address the deficits in its centre. It came down to the fitness of the provider and the non-compliance issues were putting residents at risk, so I had no option but to take the decision.

I am on the campus, in my usual location in my office in Leinster House.

I thank the witnesses for their opening statements and the information already given. I will ask questions on a couple of issues. Recently, I have raised the quality of care and attention provided at accident and emergency departments in various places in the eastern region, the area with which I am most familiar. To what extent does HIQA set the standards or inspect the lack of standards in these cases? By that, I refer to the care and safety of hospital staff in the first instance. I have witnessed cases where the most foul and obscene language was directed at doctors, nurses and other care staff. What can HIQA do to improve the standard and quality of the treatment of staff treatment? As a result of this treatment, ordinary patients are getting a less than perfect service. That is my first question.

Mr. Sean Egan

I thank the Deputy for that question. When we inspect emergency departments and hospitals more generally, among the things we look at is one of the standards around workforce. A key element of our assessment looks at the approach that is taken to support staff to work in a safe environment and also to ensure the level of staffing is at an appropriate level. It is obviously very important to make sure there are enough people to provide the care that is required because, in the absence of that, staff are put under a lot of pressure, and that should be avoided.

The abuse the Deputy mentioned is clearly unacceptable and creates very difficult working conditions. We have a role in ensuring each organisation puts in place all of the measures that might be reasonably be expected of it to try to minimise that risk. There may be a requirement to ensure appropriate security in certain situations and proactive measures to outline the zero tolerance approach that should be taken to abuse of staff. Equally, there is a responsibility on members of the public who engage with services to recognise that staff are doing their best and providing the best care they can in difficult circumstances. It is a very difficult situation. HIQA has a role but people who engage with services also have a personal responsibility to behave in the appropriate manner.

I agree with Mr Egan but unfortunately the people at the centre of this particular argument do not comply and do not care about staff. They only care about whatever it is they want to do at a particular time. They are not slow about forcing their views on everybody, including other patients. I do not think that is acceptable or that a hospital or an accident and emergency department can be run while that kind of culture prevails. What action can HIQA take to ensure all patients in waiting areas can be given reasonable access to attention and that those who are most aggressive, most reckless and use the most foul language do not dominate?

Mr. Sean Egan

Such an environment is clearly very difficult to manage for staff and people working at the front line. It is completely unacceptable and makes it very difficult for staff to provide the care they would like to provide. From HIQA's perspective, and as outlined in some of the answers to earlier questions, we have a specific role in ensuring the environment in which care is provided is as good a standard as it can be. What we have seen is that if you are providing an environment that is not overcrowded and is properly staffed, the potential for that type of behaviour to occur is reduced. It is not necessarily completely eliminated. That might be difficult to do given that ultimately these are public services and they are open to any member of the public to access. On the other side, it is important that hospitals have proper systems and processes in place to ensure a safe and secure environment and one in which staff feel is appropriate and safe to work. We have a role to ensure those measures are in place but there is a requirement for personal responsibility here as well and a recognition that staff are doing their best, often in very difficult circumstances.

I accept all that and I want to move on to something else. However, the point is that 75% of patients in accident and emergency units are people who would nowadays be called ordinary working citizens and they arrive in emergency units for a reason that is troublesome for them. It may or may not be an emergency, depending on triage and that kind of thing. The problem is that they are afraid. They become afraid of the activity they see going on, want to leave and are inevitably driven elsewhere as a result. I have no doubt about that. My request is simply that a review of all sorts of situations take place with a view to ensuring that all patients and staff are protected to the highest level possible. If that cannot be done, this committee and the public need to know.

My next question relates to full disclosure. We had an incident recently. Incidentally, I am not suggesting or attributing blame to anybody because every system has its challenges from time to time. The question I am raising is why the particular situation that arose in a children's hospital - one which has been under the scrutiny of and is repeatedly raised by this committee - was not subject to full or public disclosure. A period of seven, eight, or nine months appears to have elapsed before anybody in the committee knew about this matter. Members read about it in the newspapers at that stage. That is totally intolerable and it prevents the committee and the health services generally from being on top of the job to the extent they should be and members of the public expect them to be. Far from hearing and reading about it in the media, the committee should have been informed beforehand because we repeatedly raised the issue. There was total silence when we raised the issue and no indication was given as to what the problem was. The problem is a different issue and needs to be dealt with in any event, but there is no excuse for secrecy and suppressing the information until the time was appropriate.

Ms Angela Fitzgerald

The Deputy's points are very well made. The principle of open disclosure is at the heart of the Patient Safety (Notifiable Incidents and Open Disclosure) Act 2023. I know the Deputy made an active contribution to the discussions on that legislation. Things will go wrong in health settings, as they do in other settings. What is essential is that when things go wrong we acknowledge it, work with the people affected and seek to address the issue. Other members asked about the benefits of the patient safety Act. One of the envisaged benefits of the legislation is that it will require hospitals, both in the public and the private sector, to report on serious events. Typically, they do but the Act provides an additional burden. In Ms Grogan's area, as chief inspector of social services, she currently does not have a role to investigate individual events but she will now have additional responsibilities. That central principle is at the heart of the Deputy's question, and HIQA fully agrees with it. The work of Mr. Egan and Ms Grogan seeks to establish that. There are current requirements of people to report and when Mr. Egan goes on site, for example, he will always look at the reporting of incidents and live incidents so that he can understand for himself what is going on. The principle of reporting is an important one and it is at the heart of safety. We agree with the Deputy.

The problem as I see it is this. I do not know whether HIQA was informed and, if so, when it was informed regarding this particular incident and the extent to which it comes under HIQA's jurisdiction under the new patient safety Act and also regarding full disclosure. Full disclosure means full disclosure. If something goes wrong, the various agencies, including the Minister and the relevant committees, need to be informed.

Otherwise the general public have no confidence in the ability of the public representatives or the committee to deal with the thing adequately at the time an event is first discovered. In the future, does HIQA expect to be informed about any such incident when it takes place, not after it becomes public knowledge, which gives the appearance that HIQA does not know?

Ms Angela Fitzgerald

I think we do. I will ask Mr. Egan to explain how.

Mr. Sean Egan

On the Patient Safety (Notifiable Incidents and Open Disclosure) Act 2023, the Deputy will be familiar with the legislation in light of the discussions at this committee in respect of it. At the back of the legislation, there are a number of defined incidents that will need to be notified to HIQA under law within seven days of them occurring. The Act will require services across both the public and private sectors to notify us and it is an offence for that not to be notified. It will be a very significant additional improvement and development within the system in terms of ensuring candour in respect of making sure anything that needs to be put into the public domain is in the public domain, and that there is an appropriate follow-up in which everyone can have trust. The legislation that will be commenced relatively soon, following work from this committee and others to progress it to this point, will be an additional development in this regard and certainly as an organisation we welcome that.

With the benefits of modern technology it is possible to be in touch with relevant organisations such as outpatient, in-patient and emergency departments throughout the country to a great extent. To what extent can HIQA do that in the future in order to have a command-centre-type response from the system? Otherwise we do not go forward to the extent we want. We need to confirm patient safety and security and to do the best we can to achieve safe and secure outcomes. If we want to achieve all those things, we need to be in regular control and in touch. How quickly can HIQA be in control? Can it use modern technology to do that? I am not talking about breaching confidence or anything like that at all. Is it possible to still be in control and in a control-centre-type situation?

Ms Angela Fitzgerald

I will make some general comments and will then ask Mr. Egan to come in. In HIQA we are in the process of replacing our digital system. We have been funded to replace the digital system that we have, which allows us to report and track reported events. In the context of the patient safety Act, the requirements around that are much stronger. We are in the process of preparing our own internal systems to support smarter ways of getting information, as the Deputy said. Alongside that, with specific reference to the patient safety Act, there is an important relationship with the national incident management system, NIMS, which the HSE uses to report to the State Claims Agency in terms of making sure we can all talk to each other more easily, which is at the heart of the Deputy's question.

On the use of data, the Deputy referenced all of the different activities that can happen in a hospital. We can see from the work we do internationally that there is a need for us to become much more data-driven and that is the direction of travel in other jurisdictions. We are just doing our own review. One of the key requirements within that is to enable us to be much more agile around surveillance of data so we can be upstream of some of the events, but also to use data more effectively as part of our monitoring and regulatory roles. I might ask Mr. Egan to add to that.

Mr. Sean Egan

The Deputy has touched on an important point about the future of regulation, particularly in the healthcare setting. We already use data. There is lots of data that we can lean on to provide us with a very helpful lens in respect of what is happening in services. We have used that because it is available. One of the challenges is that technology is evolving at pace because society is digitising rapidly. There is huge opportunity in this area for improving the approach to regulation. As Ms Fitzgerald mentioned, we benchmark ourselves against our northern European peers in particular. All of us are having the same conversation around how we enhance our approach to the use of technology to inform monitoring and surveillance of services using available information in data to supplement the work we already do through inspection. It is going to be a critical development for us as we progress. It is something we are seeking to develop both in terms of the technology we are building and the specialist staffing that will be required. I do not think it will replace inspection. Ultimately, we need a presence on the ground and there are a lot of things that our inspectors can identify through inspection that will never be identifiable through data. It is an important additional supplementary area we have identified that we need to grow from where we are currently.

I welcome Ms Fitzgerald and the team from HIQA. I refer to the reporting of HIQA's work in local radio, local papers and indeed national media. In some ways this is as important as the reports HIQA does. Do our guests agree?

Ms Angela Fitzgerald

Absolutely. We have had a lot of discussion about the power of regulation. As we said earlier, the chief inspector has powers of enforcement but actually one of the strongest powers we have is the power of communication. For most providers, their reputation and brand, the quality of the service they provide and how it is perceived is really important to them. We have seen that when we publish reports, it matters. As some of the earlier Deputies and Senators have said, it matters to the local constituency but it also matters to providers. It is a very powerful instrument. It does bring with it obligations for us. We have to be fair in how we report. We have to be clear and we do have to call it out sometimes, which can be uncomfortable for us and for people around us. We have to have responsibility in terms of how we report that. I fully agree with the Senator in respect of publication.

As a society with full employment and difficulties recruiting, how much is that impacting on nursing homes? It should not be an excuse, of course, but is it an issue? Does HIQA have to tell a provider that they do not have the staff and therefore they have to leave beds vacant until such time as they have the staff?

Ms Angela Fitzgerald

I will ask Ms Grogan to come in. As a general comment, we are at full employment and there are real challenges the public and private nursing home sectors in terms of those jobs. They are difficult jobs and how they are perceived in terms of progression and wider opportunities are real structural challenges. I will as Ms Grogan to talk about the specific experience as chief inspector.

Ms Carol Grogan

As part of the regulation of nursing homes, the provider must set out their staffing and management structure in what is called a statement of purpose. That is reviewed as part of registration and is a condition of their registration.

On staffing, we can have the numbers but staff also need the proper training and competence to deliver safe, quality care. A fundamental review at every inspection concerns what staffing is available, how it compares to what they said they would have in place, and how those staff are delivering care. We observe the care practices. We have noticed over the last while that nursing homes are being bought as going concerns and, in some cases, it is the company that is being bought so the registered provider does not change but the directors change within that company. When we go back to do an inspection shortly after the takeover, in some cases we are finding that providers are reducing their staffing levels. We require them immediately to put them back in line with their statement of purpose. If they have difficulties, we will put a condition on their registration to reduce the number of beds they have or cease admissions until they are able to restabilise their resources. In some cases, providers have been quite innovative in looking at their skill mix and considering how they can shorten the gap in some areas. However, there is no substitute for having the clinical oversight of a nurse along with well trained and competent care staff.

We all remember the "Prime Time" exposé of a HSE facility in County Mayo in 2014. Gardaí cannot be everywhere and HIQA cannot be everywhere.

How does HIQA operate in terms of unannounced inspections? In this case there was undercover footage. The saying is that a picture paints a thousand words. Everyone was able to see what was going on. I believe there was an unannounced inspection prior to that. How does HIQA operate with unannounced inspections versus announced inspections?

Ms Angela Fitzgerald

I think Ms Grogan will be able to explain how we operate unannounced inspections but also what we look for in inspections as indicators of concern. As Senator Kyne says, we cannot be everywhere so we are trying to look at what we see on the day, but also at the wider operation and areas that might give rise to concern. Ms Grogan might want to take the question.

Ms Carol Grogan

We try to announce one inspection in every three years. The purpose of the announced inspection is to give notice to families, relatives or friends that the resident may wish to come in and meet with us. During Covid we had to flip that on its head and the majority of inspections were unannounced. As Mr. Egan says, there is a place for both. In some cases we need certain people to be on site, so therefore we might do what is called a short-notice announced inspection, which is about 72 hours in advance, requesting that certain people would be on site. The majority of inspections are unannounced. In disability services, just over 70% last year and this year were unannounced and approximately 96% of inspections in facilities for older persons were unannounced.

Similar to what Mr. Egan outlined, we announce who we are because there is a safety issue, especially in regard to disability services where the centres are much smaller. We carry photographic ID. We introduced a "meet your inspector" facility in disability services, so each centre has what is called a case holder, so we send out a little bit of information to disability centres in that regard. Centres for older persons are much bigger, but we change half the caseload for an inspector every year, so that the same inspector is not inspecting the same site all the time. Observation is key. We observe how people are living and their quality of life. We talk to people. Recently, we revised our inspection reports to put a greater emphasis on the lived experience of people, so members will see that this part of the report is now much larger than it would have been heretofore. How they experience the service tells us a lot about how the care is delivered.

Is HIQA confident that such situations as occurred back in 2014 in the facility in Mayo could not happen today?

Ms Carol Grogan

In disability services, in about one third of cases accommodation is still provided in congregated settings. Our overview report and annual report shows that people living in congregated settings do not experience the same quality of life or service as people living in community settings. There tend to be more institutionalised practices in congregated settings. There has been quite an emphasis on safeguarding. The absence of safeguarding legislation is a deficit. The current regulations in disability services have been in place for ten years and since then, as a country, we have ratified the UNCRPD and the capacity legislation has been enacted, so I think it is timely to review the situation, especially in regard to safeguarding. When we look at protection, we cannot look at it in isolation of rights, communication or the environment that people live in, and also then how knowledgeable staff are. Deputy Durkan spoke about how open staff are to report what they believe to be incorrect care practices. There needs to be more open discussion in both older persons services and in the disability sector and a reflection on practice to enable people not just to report where they see abuse but to be able to have a conversation about it if they think something is not quite right.

The other area that needs to be looked at is cultural differences. We have quite a mixed workforce in our services and there can be cultural differences in how people perceive things and we need to look at that, and specifically at safeguarding. This year, for both older persons and disability, I am going to do a targeted regulatory programme and then next year develop a thematic programme on safeguarding.

Does HIQA have a role in relation to protected disclosures, in terms of staff who are present? If I am correct, it does not apply to former staff. There have been some organisations where it would not apply. Perhaps the witnesses could give a bit of testimony on the role of protected disclosures.

Ms Angela Fitzgerald

As Senator Kyne knows, the new protected disclosures Act places significant additional responsibilities on us an agency where we might have protected disclosures within HIQA, against ourselves, but also in regard to the services we regulate. I might just ask Ms Grogan to address the specific question Senator Kyne raises and we can talk more generally about it then.

Ms Carol Grogan

We have the Protected Disclosures (Amendment) Act but we also receive unsolicited information from people. We receive what we call "concerns" and that can be from residents, relatives or members of the public. If we see something in a media article, we log it. Separately to that, people can contact us about protected disclosures.

As Ms Fitzgerald says, there are very stringent requirements now about how we deal with those protected disclosures in terms of being able to give a person a recording of the interaction with them or give them a record of the meeting. We must offer to meet people in person. We have done that. We also look at the safeguarding of that information. Because we also receive concerns, we take the essence of that information and create a concern, which is then followed up by our inspectors. We look at all concerns that come in. We risk rate them, we advise the provider that we have received a concern, and in some cases we might ask them to provide assurances in regard to the areas that have been identified. If we believe the concern is quite a high risk, we will go out and do an inspection. That is similar to what Mr. Egan does in the public sector as well.

Ms Angela Fitzgerald

We have very constructive dialogue with the HSE on a regular basis. One of the areas on which we have been in discussion with it is that we have a role to play and we monitor the situation. We do planned and unplanned inspections, but there is a separate piece around how it assures itself that all is well. One of the areas of discussion we are having with the HSE is about how we work together to support that in terms of earlier opportunities for intervention. The case referenced by Senator Kyne was a very extreme one but we come across cases that are not as extreme but are as upsetting for the families affected. The HSE is very open to working with us on how it does much more of that work for itself and the indicators it relies on. The HSE had very significant challenges during Covid in terms of being able to be on the ground to the extent that it needs to. There is no doubt that both from Mr. Egan's work and from Ms Grogan's work, apart from the power of communication, the power to be on site, to observe, to listen, to see and to engage is one of the biggest powers we have in how we do our work. It is one of the things we share quite a lot with the HSE when we talk to it.

I thank the witnesses.

I propose that we take a comfort break for ten minutes. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Sitting suspended at 11.18 a.m. and resumed at 11.27 a.m.

We will now resume in public session.

I want to raise the issue of nursing home inspections and the challenges being faced in this regard. There is a huge variation regarding funding for public nursing homes and private nursing homes. Do the witnesses see this in their visits to private nursing homes? Obviously, there are far more challenges in private nursing homes because of the fact that they are finding it more difficult to get and retain staff. Is this coming up as an issue in HIQA's dealings with the private nursing homes when it does inspections?

Ms Carol Grogan

The legislation is applied equally across the board between public and private.

Yes, I accept that.

Ms Carol Grogan

In some nursing homes we have found challenges with staffing. In some cases the nursing home management will choose to reduce the number of people they may have in the centre. If there are free beds they will not admit anyone else into the facility until they are able to recruit staff and have the necessary resources that they need to have in place. For the most part, it was probably a bigger issue last year then this year. Coming out of Covid some providers did have difficulties recruiting staff

In fairness, 41 private nursing homes have closed in the past four years. This is a loss of 1,200 beds, so obviously there are challenges there. Is it coming up as an issue when HIQA does inspections in the sense that corners are being cut because the same level of funding is not available?

Ms Carol Grogan

We assess to ensure that there is appropriate staffing to deliver the care, based on the assessed needs of the residents and the provider is required to set out their staffing levels in their statement of purpose.

They are registered against that. For the number of places, they are registered for that. If they are unable to provide the level of care and support, we will first identify that in the inspection report. If it is an immediate risk, we will require them to address it immediately. Many private nursing homes have agency staff who come in to help fill those gaps.

With regard to public nursing homes, for instance, I was speaking in County Kilkenny recently and one of the ratios I saw was that a public nursing home bed costs approximately €2,000 per week. A private nursing home was getting slightly over €1,000. There is a 98.5% differential. Because public nursing homes are getting, obviously, nearly double the money, is HIQA then still finding some challenges in public nursing homes in doing inspections? A lot of work had to be done as a result of Covid-19 when the number of beds per room had to be reduced in some cases. Is that still a challenge HIQA is finding in public nursing homes?

Ms Carol Grogan

We are not finding overly high non-compliance with staffing across the board. The majority of providers are providing a good quality of service. We are finding in some instances that as we have gone out and inspected post Covid, some of the resources have been reduced. In those cases, we have required the provider to put back in the resources as outlined in their statement of purpose, which is how they set out the necessary resources they need to deliver the care for the types of people they accept into the home. We observe that through the impact on residents and the risk to residents as a result. As I said earlier, it is not just about the number of staff; it is about the skill mix and training of staff.

The number of beds has been reduced in public nursing homes. As I understand it, the number of staff has not been reduced. How many public beds are there currently and how many were there four years ago?

Ms Carol Grogan

I have the figures for the number of beds that are there at the moment. As a provider, the HSE provides 20% of the centres and 16% of the beds, which accounts for 5,110 places. Private providers account for 76.9% of centres and 81.2% of beds. That is 25,941 places. Then, we have voluntary providers, which account for approximately 897 places.

With regard to the 5,110 places, is that a reduction on what was available four years ago?

Ms Carol Grogan

I would have to get the Deputy the figures from four years ago. I do not have those figures with me today.

Ms Grogan might get those for me.

Ms Carol Grogan

I will.

I would appreciate that. HIQA had a problem with discharges out of the hospital in Galway. There was a difficulty with discharges from the hospital because of the fact that contracted beds were not available from the HSE. Is that a problem in a number of other areas as regards getting people out of hospital because there is not sufficient step-down facilities? Is HIQA finding that a challenge in the hospitals? If a bed is occupied in the hospital, it means there is someone else in the accident and emergency department waiting for a bed or waiting for an admission. How is that occurring at this stage? What is happening in that regard?

Ms Carol Grogan

Mr. Egan monitors step-down facilities.

Ms Angela Fitzgerald

I might make some general comments and then we will invite Mr. Egan to come in. The Deputy is absolutely right. Delayed transfers of care used to be called delayed discharges. These are effectively people who have finished their acute episode of care and, ideally, should really be going home or to another facility. We might recall the earlier discussion we had around capacity. If there are 600 beds unavailable to the acute hospital system, that is a significant number of beds and, therefore, it is about tackling that in a sustained way. There are four approaches to tackling delayed discharges or delayed transfers of care. One is that we make sure we have proper long-term care facilities. By and large, that has been growing, but so is the ageing population.

One of the issues that occurred in the last week of December last year and in early January this year was that an awful lot of contracted beds in private nursing homes were not occupied. Accident and emergency departments were jammed but people were not being discharged, even though there were vacant contracted beds available.

Ms Angela Fitzgerald

That is a fair point. A number of responses are required. One is, obviously, what we talked about earlier in terms of home care and developing a model that is sustainable. That is one strand of it. The Deputy is right. A number of people may be fit to go home but may need transitional care or step-down care. By and large, Mr. Egan and his team have an oversight role in that space. However, there are a number of private providers in that space. One of the successful ways in which patients can be effectively discharged is if there is good clinical governance overseeing that discharge. The patient may not be quite ready to go home so overseeing his or her care as he or she leaves the hospital and goes into a sub-acute setting can be challenging. Sometimes hospitals are not satisfied that the care can be provided to allow for that transfer but it is a space that we are very keen to develop. Risks arise in transitions of care so our role in that space with public providers is very clear. The reform will give us the role with regard to other settings. I will ask Mr. Egan to comment on the specific aspects of what the Deputy asked about.

Mr. Sean Egan

The Deputy is quite right. There is a requirement for capacity in many settings other than acute hospitals for patients who are finished their episode of acute care. Some people need residential care and that falls to Ms Grogan in terms of regulation of nursing homes. However, many others just need a bit of extra support or rehabilitation before they are able to continue their lives in the community. Increasingly, we are seeing an investment in rehabilitation and community inpatient care. We have a role in monitoring those services against the national standards. We apply the same framework that we do in acute hospitals, albeit in a different context in the monitoring of those services. We are beginning to see an increase in these services actually being provided in the private sector as well. We do not-----

There is a challenge in all of this about home care at the moment. The big challenge is getting staff. The issue of the number of beds that are occupied by people who could have been discharged consistently comes up. For instance, I knew of three people at one stage in Cork University Hospital, CUH, who could have been discharged. In fact, one was in hospital for 12 months more than he should have been. It was just trying to get a facility that would accept him. Surely, a better structure can be put in place to deal with that.

The second issue I raised was about the Christmas period last year. The Minister has been talking about consultants working at weekends.. However, if a consultant discharges someone on a Saturday and that person needs to go into a step-down facility, are the people in place on the administrative side to get that person out of the hospital and into the appropriate step-down setting? Has there been engagement with the HSE on that issue?

Ms Angela Fitzgerald

When the overview report was published last December, Mr. Egan, Ms Grogan and I met with HSE officials on that exact issue. There was a perception that perhaps HIQA was a block to allowing patients to be discharged on a seven-day basis. In fact, with Ms Grogan and Mr. Egan, we worked through much of that with the HSE. In truth, if a patient is going home at the weekend, that discharge should be planned during the week.

Ms Angela Fitzgerald

It should not be planned at the weekend. That is where all the proper supports are available to allow for a safe discharge. To be fair to the nursing homes also, they should be given an opportunity to assess the patient where normal staffing arrangements are in place. One of the areas we worked on last Christmas was to try to facilitate better planning earlier to allow for seven-day discharges.

The second issue I mentioned earlier was clinical governance. I know from my own operational roles in various hospitals that where a doctor is following the patient and giving good oversight, there is a much better chance of a successful discharge. To be fair to private nursing homes that may be providing transitional care - we talked about the role of community and Deputy Cullinane in particular spoke about it - it is important that the community then steps in to allow for the patient to move on. There are a number of steps in it but fundamentally, the Deputy is correct that in periods of high surge, getting patients out of hospital, because they are at risk there anyway of infection if they are well, is a good thing. Having a good plan during working hours to facilitate that transfer is one of the things on which we have engaged with them.

Ms Grogan and her team have also looked at making sure that we as a regulator do not get in the way of allowing for that seven days’ discharge, but the key thing is that it is done safely. There is also the matter of facilitating, as Mr. Egan said, the onward movement of that patient. Mr. Egan in particular, given the role he has, is very keen to occupy that space, particularly with the establishment of the regional authorities.

Can I just raise one other issue? It is in relation to someone in a private nursing home or even a public nursing home who has gone downhill and where there is huge pressure being applied for that person to be admitted to hospital. I understand that a number of areas around the country now have teams that go out to visit the nursing home, do an assessment and give guidance on how to care for the patient, rather than transferring the patient. Is that now in place in all our health areas across the country? I know it is in place in the Cork-Kerry region. I know it is in St. Vincent’s, Dublin, which initially did it during Covid-19. Can we have it in place everywhere that a team will be available from the hospital, which will then cover the nursing home? If they are under pressure, then they can say they did consult with the hospital. They can outline the advice the hospital gave about the management of a certain patient and they can say that he or she does not need to be transferred to a hospital.

Ms Angela Fitzgerald

In the first instance, the HSE is seeking to advocate. I am familiar with the examples the Deputy has given. There are a couple of points from our perspective. I agree. I had a 95-year-old mother who was able to stay in her nursing home for her last days. That meant an awful lot to us as a family. That was facilitated because the nursing home had very good relationships with both the GP and the hospital. To be fair to the nursing homes, they can be concerned about us in that space. Therefore, one of the things we looked at when we were preparing for last winter was that we do not get in the way of that, to the extent that is there. Mainstreaming that as a part of a standard response fits with the objective of keeping people at home. We are very supportive of that in the work we do. Ms Grogan looks at that as part of her inspection process. Mr. Egan, through his engagement around winter planning, also tries to advocate for that.

I will raise one final issue about the electronic records. I have come across scenarios where someone is in hospital or care and there are full electronic records in the ward that is dealing with the person. Yet, another section of the hospital will not get involved with the electronic system. Therefore, on the one hand, there is an electronic file and, on the other, there is a manual file in another section of the hospital. How does one deal with that? There will be a changeover. It will have to happen if we want to make the system more efficient. I wonder how we can avoid a scenario happening where there is a need for key information, somebody checks the electronic records and the key information will not be on the file.

Ms Angela Fitzgerald

This relates to the role of standards.

Ms Rachel Flynn

Yes, it relates to the role of standards. It is essential that we have standards to allow for that interoperability and allow those systems to talk to each other. We have a role within HIQA to develop and improve national standards for health information. We have done so in the past, with something as simple as demographic data. This relates to how one records their name and address and how that can be shared with other systems. The HSE has a role when they procure these systems, which is that they should mandate the supplier to adhere to national standards and put those standards in place. The Deputy is correct that many of the systems within the current health system do not speak to one another and there is a need for a clear strategy around how we will overcome that.

Is there not a danger regarding key information when a doctor is on call or if there is a changeover of doctors or nurses? They will come on call, look at the electronic records and will not be aware that there is also a manual file that they are not familiar with. They will therefore rely on what is on the electronic system.

Ms Rachel Flynn

Yes. We have found that predominately within a hospital, people will rely on some systems, including paper-based systems. The problem arises when one tries to transfer data across transitions of care. If, for example, a patient is being discharged back to a nursing home or back to their home, that is where the issue will arise. These transitions require standards to be put in place to allow for the safe transmission of data. When the systems are being procured by the HSE, which is the provider of services, it must stipulate within the contracts that these standards need to be adhered to. Other countries have done this, but they have done it by nationally mandating standards around health information.

I have a series of questions and then I will bring in Deputy O'Dowd. Again, the witnesses are very welcome this morning.

It would be helpful for us if the witnesses could first address the complaints issue and expand on how they get those complaints. I am also conscious of the public role of this meeting; people might be listening at home and need to know how they can contact HIQA. First, can people contact HIQA by phone or email? What is the best way of doing it? Does HIQA take an unsigned or anonymous complaint? With what level of seriousness would HIQA treat? My question is on the process itself and how HIQA actually views them.

Ms Angela Fitzgerald

I will ask Ms Grogan to take this question. We have a very systematic and standardised process for how we do that and it would be helpful to explain it.

Ms Carol Grogan

We welcome feedback from people who use services, as well as their families, friends and members of the public, in relation to any of the services we regulate or monitor. They can contact us in a variety of ways; email and phone are the most preferred when we look back on our statistics. Some 189 concerns were received by email by the end of the first two quarters of this year, while 152 were received by phone.

We have a team. We talk to people and if they give us their number we will ring them back so that we can fully understand the nature of their concern. If people write to us, we will contact them as well. We will take anonymous feedback because we understand that some people will not want to give their name. In those cases, it is unverified information but we will then seek to verify that, either through an assurance report from the provider or through an inspection. In some cases, we may find that there is non-compliance in the areas that the person has identified to us. In other areas, it may be something about which we have already been notified. On my social care, there are certain notifications that must be notified to me. We can then look at whether it is has been notified and we can do a triangulation between the information that we have received from the provider.

Our information concerns team undertook a complete review of the information we give to people. We have provided and developed booklets for children's services, healthcare services, disability services and older person's services. They are available on our website, and we also issue them to people.

We also receive concerns about areas that are not within our remit. In those cases, we try to signpost the person to the organisation that might be best suited to deal with their issue. If not, we can try to do a bit of detective work ourselves and then ring the person back. Then, at least they will not be ringing around a number of public services trying to find where to direct their concern.

I have another easy question. Are there other European jurisdictions or other jurisdictions where there is an equivalent to HIQA? Does HIQA have contact with them? Is there an organisation? Does HIQA exchange experiences and-----

Ms Angela Fitzgerald

It is a very good question. One of the things we have to do all the time is challenge ourselves to change, adapt and learn. In that regard, there are two broad networks that we link with. I am part of a regulatory forum between Ireland and the UK. This is for health and social care regulators. That is really helpful, because we have pretty common systems and common problems to solve. It was stood up during Covid-19, but it has remained extant. Certainly, in terms of sharing learning, it is very powerful. Mr. Egan and Ms Grogan are both on an international network, where they contribute by sharing our learning and there is also a huge opportunity to learn from others about things that work and things that do not work. I will ask Mr. Egan or Ms Grogan to comment on a couple of the initiatives that have been part of that.

Mr. Sean Egan

We are a member and board member of a group called Supervision and Regulation Innovation Network for Care, SINC, which is a group of European regulators in the healthcare and social care systems regulation space. It is made up of similar organisations to ours in countries such as the Nordic countries, the UK, the Netherlands and Portugal.

We find that engagement with them allows us to identify common issues they may be grappling with and which we equally may be working to address. There is a lot of learning. Deputy Durkan mentioned the future of regulation and data-driven regulation. We have engaged as an equal partner with our colleagues internationally in that regard. We are all learning together and we are all at a similar stage in the development of that area. There is an awful lot to learn from our colleagues. Certainly we bring that back and try to implement it for the benefit of the general public. Ms Grogan is involved with a social care network as well.

Ms Carol Grogan

I am a member of the European social network as well, looking at quality and safety of care for social care services, which would be disability, older persons' and children's services.

Is there a particular country that would stand out? We always hear about the Scandinavian model and so on. Is it similar to this?

Mr. Sean Egan

If we look at different organisations, they all have their strengths. From our most recent engagement, I would say that we are possibly most similar to our Dutch colleagues, Inspectie Gezondheidszorg en Jeugd, IGZ. There is a lot to be learned from the Nordic countries as well. On the data side, the Care Quality Commission in the UK is probably leading the way. It is a network that we are keen to leverage more in terms of its use of technology and data. There is a lot that we contribute to and that we are able to put out there as good practice. Certainly our colleagues are happy to hear from our experiences as well. I would like to think that we put a forward a good showing for ourselves. Equally, there is a lot to learn from other colleagues.

On the annual report, I am impressed by the section relating to numbers, inspections of health and social care settings and so on. There were 34,622 completions of human rights-based approach modules and 13,774 completions of an online learning course on adult safeguarding. It gives a sense of the amount of work that is done. I am conscious that when we hear about HIQA, we are usually hearing of terrible things that are happening right in the system itself. It is helpful for us that we are looking at how the system is actually being used and the impact it is having on patients.

In the section on infections, again, we are given the amount of protection against infection and so on. For a long time, particularly within the health system and in hospitals but not exclusively so, there were outbreaks of diseases like MRSA and so on. There has also been criticism in recent times in respect of the amount of sepsis and the take-up in respect of that. We had a group in last week who referred to a 75% reinfection rate in respect of services. Some of that was put down to the length of time patients were waiting on access to services, but not exclusively so. Some of it was down to sterilisation and other issues as well. On the challenges around that, as part of HIQA's inspection process, does it highlight trends in respect of particular diseases and so on?

One of the things that struck me as a layperson was the use of copper to prevent the spread of infection. We do not seem to use those materials to a great extent. I asked our guests from the national children's hospital what materials are being used for door handles, some of which involve pressing a button and others are elbow operated. In its role in respect of standards, does HIQA make recommendations in this regard? Particularly in respect of learning from the past and materials we should be using, has it ever made a recommendation on that whole area?

Mr. Sean Egan

I mentioned earlier that we have a standard approach to inspection in healthcare facilities which samples a number of standards and looks at a number of specific thematic areas. One of those areas is infection prevention and control. It is always a key part of our assessment. We have a long history of inspecting in this area in the healthcare setting. In fact, we have specific standards around infection prevention and control, both in acute and community settings, that were developed by HIQA and mandated by the Minister. They would be part of our consideration as part of the approach to inspection. That approach to inspection looks at the various elements of infection prevention and control, both in and of itself and also as a wider proxy in terms of safety and governance within the organisation. We look at governance and the intervention measures that are put in place. We look at evidence-based care as well. We also assess data to inform our evaluation of the service in terms of how it is performing relative to its peers around infection rates and so on. It is one of the areas within Ireland that is actually more developed and allows us to benchmark services in terms of infection prevention and control.

Specifically on the Cathaoirleach's question about materials, we try to ensure that evidence-based practice is implemented. That is something we would seek to ensure is in place. The built environment is something we would look at. The physical environment is a key part not only of safety but also dignity for patients, which is included within our inspection. Infection control is a critical safety measure within organisations and I would think it will always be part of our assessment approach going forward.

The reduction in the number of beds for older people has been mentioned by other members. On page 31, in respect of registered designated centres, HIQA makes the point that by the end of 2022 the number of beds had been reduced and was going in the wrong direction. That point has been made by members. Assaults on staff have been raised by Deputy Durkan and others. I looked at some of the places HIQA visits for children. I am looking at Oberstown now. If there is a large increase in assaults on staff, would HIQA link that to anything in respect of its visit? Would it mean there is a problem in Oberstown, say? I am just giving that as an example, it could be anywhere. Would that trigger a visit to a nursing home, children's home or whatever?

Ms Carol Grogan

I might just come in on the registered beds. So far this year, we have registered four new nursing homes which has resulted in an increase of 274 beds. We now have 31,948 as of yesterday. That is at least some of the beds coming back to be available for older people if they wish to move into residential care. On what might prompt an inspection, for Oberstown we are mandated to carry out one inspection in a year. In Oberstown over the last years they have worked quite hard to look at the systems and processes they have in place to reduce incidents.

In other areas, I do not receive a notification in respect of staff who may be injured. We get notifications about residents who may be injured and of course that would prompt a follow-up. When we are out on inspection, we review the risk management regulation, which would then identify if there are occupational-type injuries. The Health and Safety Authority would definitely have a role in respect of the follow-up of providers regarding occupational injuries. We would look at it in terms of the processes and systems in place, if there were appropriate assessments and supports in place for the residents or children in the services to deal with behaviour that may be challenging. It is a well-known fact that behaviour that challenges is really a communication of a need that the person has. Therefore appropriate assessment, systems and a care plan or personal plan should be in place for those people. We will look at it and identify it on inspection. Providers might contact us to tell us that they have a difficulty with staff. I have a good relationship with the vast majority of providers so they would let us know if there was something going on in their home.

I was impressed with the national nursing home experience survey. As much as 90% of residents and 87% of friends stated they had a good or very good experience, which is really positive. It is probably not the result we expected because we, particularly as public representatives, hear the negatives rather than the positives.

I will now discuss the negatives. One of HIQA's reports show that fewer than half of the 48 nursing homes inspected by the authority between February 2022 and June of this year were fully or substantially compliant. How many nursing homes were fully compliant? Ms Grogan can come back to me with the information.

Ms Carol Grogan

Yes, I will.

We are talking about fire safety standards, the rights of residents and the quality of buildings. There were very serious failings and I am interested to learn how many nursing homes were fully compliant.

HIQA published some concerning reports at the start of September. They indicate that in some nursing homes the personal money of residents was, without their knowledge, being used to pay for the daily running costs of several residential homes. Some moneys are supposed to have been retained even after the death of a resident. Is this a common occurrence and what is being done to stamp out the practice?

Another issue is spurious charges and, again, I do not know if that comes across. We usually hear complaints from families of residents about having to pay for hairdressing services, entertainment and more. I know of an instance where the family of a resident in a nursing home was charged an horrendous price for an orthopaedic bed. I know of one case where the family of a resident had to take out an equity loan. I personally would not recommend anyone release equity in their home. In this case, when the two parents died, there was no home equity left because of the loan period. The spurious charges applied in some of those cases are horrific.

Ms Carol Grogan

I share the Cathaoirleach's concerns about the financial issues he raised. If any provider holds money belonging to a resident, then that money should be held in a separate account from that of the company accounts to safeguard the money that belongs to residents and ensures the money is available to the residents should they need it. Additionally, providers should have arrangements in place to provide residents with statements of the accounts and any invoices for moneys paid on behalf of the resident.

Regarding the reports identified by the Cathaoirleach, I have serious concerns about the management of the finances of residents by the provider. This provider is the individual provider of ten homes. Each of the ten homes is an individual legal entity and under the Act I must deal with them as separate legal entities.

I took the unusual step of using section 72 to request our CEO, Ms Fitzgerald, to bring in the expertise of a forensic accountant to inspect with me some of those centres so that I could get a full understanding of the financial practices concerning the accounts of residents. That process is ongoing and I will review their recommendations in terms of the next steps to take. I am in escalated regulatory action in relation to these centres. I have cancelled one of them. Another one is in the process and the provider can appeal the decision I have given to the District Court, which is in place at the moment. I am very concerned about this provider and taking regulatory action. Unfortunately, I met this provider, as has my deputy chief inspector, on a number of occasions. I took the unusual step of instructing him to put safeguards in place. The plans he gave back he did not follow through on and we have found that in our subsequent inspections. He had advised he was bringing in an accounting firm to ensure residents' finances were safeguarded. He did not follow through on that, which is why I am now in an escalated enforcement action with this provider. I am very conscious of the impact that has on the wider health and social care system. If you close between 30 and 60 or more beds in nursing homes, that has quite a significant impact on the rest of the health and social care services. I do take that into account but my first priority is to keep residents safe.

What about the spurious charges and a resident's family being charged for a specific type of mattress? Is HIQA aware of other instances?

Ms Carol Grogan

We have seen over the course of 2022 and 2023 that residents have faced either new charges or increases in the charges that were levied on them previously. We have also seen a tendency in some cases for providers to incorporate what we refer to as a blanket charge on all residents regardless of whether they avail of a service or not. I am concerned about this because residents may perceive they do not have a choice about paying the charges that are included in their contract of care and they would have very little disposable income to spend on what they wish. Unfortunately, the regulatory framework does not allow my inspectors to review the charges. We do review the contract of care to check whether it is transparent and provides choice. We have engaged with the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission to inform guidance for registered providers in the development and use of contracts of care. We have also raised this issue with the Department.

Again, this may be a matter for legislators. This week, Mr. Finbarr Colfer, deputy chief inspector in HIQA, said "that people with disabilities living in congregated settings are at higher risk of receiving a poorer quality support that does not uphold their rights". Is that due to the lack of monitoring inspections during Covid? We know conditions deteriorated in some centres. What lessons have been learned? That would be useful to know if we find ourselves in another pandemic or situation in the future and would ensure we have a different style of inspections. Have we learned anything from that period that we can adapt?

Ms Carol Grogan

We continued to inspect throughout Covid bar a couple of weeks in the beginning where we needed to upskill our own staff in terms of Covid, personal protective equipment, PPE, and the requirements for going out on inspection.

Mr. Colfer identified that providers implemented remote oversight, so providers remotely monitored their own services and relied on information gained through audits or telephone calls with the centres. We have learned from that that remote oversight does not work from a provider's perspective. No more than us going out and seeing first-hand the lived experience of how people are experiencing care, providers need to be out in their own services and this goes for both older persons and disability services. They need to be engaged with their staff. They need to support their persons in charge to deliver safe, quality care.

We are working with providers to re-establish proper governance approaches. Both the older persons and disability stakeholder events this year are focused on governance and management. We held webinars in disability services for persons in charge and persons participating in management. Just recently we had more than 1,700 attendees focusing on governance and management. We are developing a seminar with the umbrella bodies for disability to launch later this year and a main event next year which focuses on their responsibilities as a board and CEOs of these services in terms of accountability, responsibility and the governance management of services.

The July report by HIQA found services provided by Tusla in Dublin South-West, which coincidentally is my constituency, had to deal with a chronic shortfall of staff, and inadequate resources were in place to meet the demands of the service and the needs of the children.

Many of us who represent that area have said that the system appears to be broken. Some of the staff would even admit that privately. Has there been any improvement in this? Are a higher number of children being referred due to child protection issues, or are welfare needs being warehoused, because there are not enough social workers to take on their cases?

Ms Angela Fitzgerald

The Chair has raised an important issue. We engage very regularly with Tusla. In the past 18 months, we have observed continued challenges, through our inspection process, in a number of areas, where between 25% to 50% of areas have unallocated social workers. That contributes to real concerns for us. The Chair reflected one of those. We have had a lot of engagement with Tusla, which has a medium-term strategy around its structures at a regional level around the staffing model and whether there are other ways of staffing in the context of the regulatory framework they are operating within. In the very near time, we felt that if we kept doing what we were doing, we would keep getting more issues. To some extent, we were also mindful that when a light is continuously shone on a service, where there are already challenges in attracting and retaining staff, further challenges are created in that space.

Ms Grogan and her team - Ms Eva Boyle is the lead inspector - developed an alternative approach, which is a national framework and improvement plan aimed at trying to support consistent and standardised improvement. It is also about the opportunity to learn how that can be brought forward, where it has been successful in one area. We hope that has a number of benefits. It helps the local area away from constantly running to stand still. It looks at best practice and tries to share it. It also looks at things that might be outside the remit of the area itself, which might require a different solution either through Tusla, or Tusla and ourselves with the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. I have been talking quite regularly with the Secretary General around this whole issue. He is very supportive of this change in approach. We would be very happy to come back to the committee to report on progress in this area. It is a real concern for us.

I am conscious that a job is on offer going in and in hundreds of cases, or even more in some instances, there is a problem with speech and language and physiotherapists. There is a gap in children's services in that regard. That is a factor in recruiting people as well.

Ms Angela Fitzgerald

I think so. To the Cathaoirleach's question around the causes, Tusla has done its own assessment, which is multifactorial. Certainly, child protection due to a breakdown in family systems is a key part. The unexpected and sustained increase in children and families coming from Ukraine has resulted in some added burden. We already had international protection services but fundamentally we have a significant number of children and families who are in trouble. Tusla is trying to put its arms around it as regards the number of staff it receives. When we met with its staff recently, they said even if Tusla were to take the entire number of graduates that will come out of college this year, it will be insufficient to meet its needs. There are very real issues there, which is why we have tried to take a different approach. The Cathaoirleach's question is very well-placed.

I have a couple of questions on nursing homes, in particular the non-compliance with fire regulations. I have correspondence with HIQA going back to May of this year, where in response to my query it stated that fire safety concerns remain one of the highest areas of non-compliance in nursing homes. It is something that is highlighted in HIQA's inspection reports. One of the homes referenced in respect of fire safety was Aperee. As I understand it, and I am not absolutely clear, it appears the home that was mentioned is closing at the end of this month. Is that the correct position? That is what has been reported in the press. I am trying to understand what is actually going on there.

Ms Carol Grogan

I am in enforcement action with that provider, which has the right of appeal on the decision I have made. If it does not appeal that decision, the HSE will go in and take over that centre. There is no requirement for that centre to close at the end of this month.

That is a very important point.

Ms Carol Grogan

It is important that residents are supported and assisted to find appropriate alternative accommodation. I have not instructed this provider to close earlier.

That is very important because the information that is out there in the ether is that HIQA is closing it. I am very pleased to hear that HIQA will move in if it has to and that in due course, or at least when somebody is seriously ill and is in the final stages of life, they will not be suddenly taken out of the home or will die in that situation.

Ms Carol Grogan

My deputy chief inspector is meeting with the HSE today to discuss this matter. As the Deputy knows, when a registration is cancelled, the burden falls on the HSE to step in and assume the role of registered provider. It has done that in one of the other centres, which is Aperee Living Ballygunner. There are still 21 residents living there even though that cancellation came into effect.

It is very important to get that message out there. I am glad Ms Grogan made that clear to me.

The fire safety issues that are in a very significant number of homes also apply to homes that have closed in the recent past. I have looked at those homes. A number of them are older buildings, are more than one storey high, and have annexes, mezzanines and all sorts of historic construction. The problem seems to be, in the case of the one we are talking about in Cork, that the risks identified in the centre's own fire safety risk assessment carried out in November 2021 have not been mitigated. In other words, there have been serious fire safety issues with the home in Cork since at least November 2021. All of them have not been addressed, yet that home is a huge risk to those residents. Why has this not been dealt with before now? I know that HIQA has held a number of meetings with the home owners - the chief inspector pointed out what the internal process is - and this matter is at the highest level of engagement. However, the danger is still there in respect of a number of homes in the country. This issue seems to come up very frequently but has not been addressed. Where is HIQA's responsibility on that because ultimately it rests with it?

Ms Carol Grogan

We have three inspectors with fire and estates expertise. We had two inspectors and increased it to a third to try to respond proactively to these issues. I developed a fire safety handbook for providers because, in some cases, providers were looking at the fire safety issues-----

Local government-----

Ms Carol Grogan

-----in absence of looking at the care needs of people who live in centres. We have run a number of webinars and intend to do a refresher in relation to that. Many of the fire issues are structural in nature and require significant investment to put right. Interestingly, we are finding those are most prominent in centres that were built around the 1990s into 2000.

Our regulations are very specific about what we look at. If we identify fire safety issues, we also make a referral to the fire authority. We have established very good working relationships with the fire authority around the country and they will always-----

With respect, I hear what Ms Grogan is saying and I support her fully. However, these are red risks and are still red risks. They have to be dealt with immediately but they have not been.

Ms Carol Grogan

In some cases, it is slower to be able to deal with the risks because of the financial investment required, so we look at what mitigating actions can be put in place to reduce the risk to residents.

To take up that point, HIQA's most recent report stated that the serious fire risks have not been addressed and no plan is in place. There is no plan in place.

Ms Carol Grogan

The provider has failed to implement the plans that he has given us.

My point is that HIQA has failed to ensure that this happened since 2021.

Ms Carol Grogan

I do not believe that I have failed. I have followed up with a provider. I do not take the cancellation of a nursing home lightly because it closes a home for older people.

Ms Carol Grogan

It is a last resort. I do try all other methods by which to engage with a provider to address the deficits.

That has not worked.

Ms Carol Grogan

In this case, it has not worked, which is why I am in enforcement with the provider.

I accept the genuineness of Ms Grogan's intent and her professionalism and integrity in the context of what she is saying. However, it is still not working and the danger is still there. I am concerned that there will be awful events in some of these homes where there are risks and where those risks have not been addressed. I agree that one of the issues the Government must address is to find a way of funding, by way of low-interest loans or interest-free loans, genuine service providers so that they can make them safe.

My other question relates to the Emily case. I know we are not going to identify the home involved or any issue in respect of the individual in the home. It appears people were sexually assaulted and raped over a period of years and that more than one person in that home has suffered in the past as a result of such actions. The only people who can look inside homes are those in HIQA. They failed to identify the issue of the number of years those actions may have been going on. We do not know yet but it may have been going on for as long as 16 years. Why was HIQA unable to identify significant abuse such as that where it appears there were extant records that were either not looked at or were ignored?

Ms Carol Grogan

I take safeguarding very seriously. It is a feature of all inspections that are conducted in facilities for older persons and those with disabilities. At the very heart of any safeguarding concern is the person who is affected. It is hugely worrying not just for that person but for their family too. The nature of abuse is that it is covert and many people do not recognise the signs. The providers are required, under the regulations, to notify me of any suspicion, allegation or incident of abuse and we follow up on that.

I accept that but the point I am trying to get at is that the only body that can go in to invigilate what is going on in any nursing home is HIQA. It appears there were extant files in that home to show there were concerns about that abuse. It was written down and HIQA's inspectors did not see it or did not look to see it. Where is HIQA's accountability in that regard?

Ms Carol Grogan

When we conduct an inspection, we talk to people and review files but only a sample of files. We tend to review the files of people that we talk to so we follow their journey through the inspection. We do not review all the files on an inspection report.

HIQA can do that.

Ms Carol Grogan

We can but we do not.

Here is a fact. A very short period after that court case where the gentleman concerned got his 12 years in jail, which is far too little a sentence, HIQA inspected that home and gave it a clean bill of health.

Ms Carol Grogan

We inspected and prior to that case, we identified there were shortcomings in safeguarding.

HIQA inspected the facility after the event.

Ms Carol Grogan

After that, following the training in accordance with the requirements of the regulation around protection, we identified that the provider had provided additional training to staff in that centre. The staff we spoke with were knowledgeable.

The fact is that the person who the representatives of HIQA were to meet was not there on the day. Is that not a fact? The person in charge was not there.

Ms Carol Grogan

The majority of our inspections are unannounced so there will be occasions when the person in charge is not there because he or she does not know when we are coming.

To the best of my knowledge, this was an announced inspection. My point is that the HIQA report did not identify any of those abuses, notwithstanding the fact that a criminal case had taken place. I will not mention the time because that might allow people to identify the home in question but the criminal case had taken place shortly before. That is my concern. We rely on HIQA to find out about these things and what happens if it does not find out about them? After a serious court case, HIQA gave the home in question a clean bill of health. Those files are, as we know, being looked at again. That raises enormous questions.

Ms Carol Grogan

I share the Deputy's concern. It is important to note that my legal role is to assess compliance with the regulations and that is what I do.

Ms Carol Grogan

In respect of safeguarding, I have spoken previously about the need for adult safeguarding legislation.

There is such a need.

Ms Carol Grogan

The case to which the Deputy has referred and, as outlined by another committee member, the case in Mayo at the beginning of regulation, put to the forefront that we need adult safeguarding legislation.

We need change.

Ms Carol Grogan

We need change and more robust regulations.

HIQA needs more powers and staff.

Ms Carol Grogan

It does.

It also needs more accountability. I regularly read HIQA reports and understand how busy staff have to be just to do the organisation's statutory duty of care. I am sure inspectors are worn out with the travel required to do their jobs to the best of their ability. However, a lacuna remains, as do abuses that needed to be rooted out. I apologise for rushing but I have to ask the Taoiseach a question about all of these matters in a moment. The point is that, for example, each of the homes operated by Aperee Living has one director. Would that be correct?

Ms Carol Grogan

It would.

The law is an ass. One individual is a director of 11 nursing homes where there are serious concerns about fire safety, financial irregularities and the quality of care, and some concerns about food. For all of those matters, HIQA is hidebound by the law. The Garda needs to be notified.

Ms Carol Grogan

I have referred matters to the Garda.

Thank God. I do not know what happens in the case of a company that is malfunctioning. I know they are separate companies. We need to put somebody in straight away to take over that place. That is essential. What is happening there is unforgivable. I appreciate Ms Grogan is doing her best. However, accountability to HIQA is being avoided by the law. There have been issues around fire safety and the food for ages. There have been complaints for ages. I am shocked. I know Ms Grogan wants to do the work but HIQA is being held back by the law in this case.

I thank the Deputy. Ms Grogan may respond.

Ms Carol Grogan

I will make two comments. We have increased the number of inspections. Since 2019, we aim to try to get out to every nursing home ever year.

Ms Carol Grogan

We have increased our inspections by 32%. As we said before, there is no substitute for getting out there.

The problem with those inspections is-----

Deputy, please, I gave you a lot of time.

-----that they do not take place at night or at weekends. The vast majority, although not all of them, take place between 10 a.m. and 5 p.m. I accept that the vast majority of them are unannounced but how many inspections take place-----

The Deputy is asking more questions. I have asked Ms Grogan to respond. Will the Deputy please let me chair the meeting?

I will, of course.

I have to end the meeting. The staff are looking to go.

The staff might be looking to go-----

Hold on now, Deputy.

I have to go as well.

The Deputy also chairs meetings.

I am trying to do this to the best of my ability.

The Deputy asked to come in and I allowed him to come in.

I am entitled to come in.

I know. I have given the Deputy more than his fair chance in relation to-----

I am entitled to my questions.

The Deputy has asked his questions.

I am not finished.

He has asked his questions and we are entitled to hear the answers to his questions.

That is what I am trying to allow for.

What I am trying to explain-----

Every time the Deputy asks a question, he asks another question.

Well, that is not the way this is-----

Okay, fair enough.

Is the Deputy finished?

I am not. I will say one final thing and I accept what the Cathaoirleach has said and his criticism of me.

My problem is that I have a question to the Taoiseach on this issue, which is why I am watching the clock. I apologise for that.

Could I suggest-----

Could I meet-----

Respectfully, I suggest that the Deputy talk to Ms Grogan after the meeting.

That is what I am trying to say. If I can, that is exactly what I want to do. I was trying to get Mr. Whelan earlier but I realised he was here. I apologise; I am not being rude.

Ms Angela Fitzgerald

Through the Chair, if I may, the Deputy raised some wider issues which are very relevant. One is around regulatory reform. Ms Grogan has written and is working very closely with the Department around some of the limitations of the current regulatory process, which is important. The second question the Deputy raised is about the current model and market oversight when there is a model made up of private providers. He spoke about the legal limitations but there are others. That may not be for us but it is a discussion we are having with the Department. The last point is how we learn as a regulator. We had a very good discussion at our board about the learning from the Emily case. While we have been to the forefront around safeguarding in the absence of legislation, we also know that we can always do better. In fact, we had a really good discussion with our board about some of the additional measures we might take. The Deputy's questions were well directed in relation to that. We will be happy to come back and talk again.

I will meet the representatives if I can arrange it.

Ms Angela Fitzgerald

That would be fine.

I apologise that I have to go.

It is an appalling case. We need to learn from all these cases and put in a system that will work in the future for all our citizens. I have to end the meeting. I thank the representatives of HIQA for their engagement with the committee on its recently published annual reports and other reports. The committee will continue to monitor the activities of HIQA in the period ahead. I thank HIQA and its staff for the important work they carry out. The work they do is highly important. They need to be congratulated and we probably do not do that often enough.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.32 p.m. until 4 p.m. on Tuesday, 10 October 2023.
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