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Joint Committee on Health debate -
Wednesday, 28 Feb 2024

Health Services for People with Epidermolysis Bullosa: Discussion

The committee will now commence its consideration of health services for persons with epidermolysis bullosa, EB. From Debra Ireland, I am pleased to welcome: Dr. Sinéad Hickey, head of advocacy; Ms Deirdre Callis, family support services; and Dr. Rosemarie Watson, board member.

I will read the note on privilege. This is a standard thing we read out for witnesses. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory with regard to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Dr. Sinéad Hickey to make her opening remarks on behalf of Debra.

Dr. Sinéad Hickey

I thank the committee for the invitation to speak on health services for people with EB on the eve of Rare Disease Day. As the Chair said, I am head of advocacy, research and policy at Debra. I am joined by my Ms Callis and Dr. Watson, who is the former director of EB services in Ireland.

Debra is a charity that provides support for people living with this extremely painful, rare and incurable genetic skin condition called EB. People living with EB are missing proteins that bind the layers of their skin together, so any minor friction causes it to break and blister. In some cases, EB can also affect the internal organs, causing internal injuries. An average of 300 people in Ireland live with the condition.

Different forms of EB vary in severity. They all carry debilitating life-limiting symptoms and pain with implications for well-being and quality of life. It is an extremely complex condition that can require intensive specialised care. Wound management is of particular importance to prevent the development of secondary infections, cancer and loss of limbs. In some cases, people need three to four hours of extremely distressing, painful bandage changes every other day.

A 39-year-old woman living with one of the worst forms of EB is best placed to describe the impact of bandage changes. Her condition is so severe it has led to limb loss as a result of EB-related skin cancer. She said, “I [dread] my mother coming into the room because the pain you endure, there are actually no words in the dictionary.” These necessary bandage changes must often be undertaken by relatives, and this has a significant impact on the quality of life of the family and carers too. A mother who cares for her 20-year-old daughter, who also lives with one of the worst forms of EB, describes the condition as having a profound effect on the physical and mental health not only of the person living with it but also their family members.

These experiences are in line with the findings of our report, which we launched with the University of Limerick at the end of 2023. This report reviews the evidence related to the impact EB has on the quality of life for people living with this condition. It also examines access to services and supports across five countries, including Ireland. We identified a set of key recommendations based on the results of this research, some of which we will discuss today.

The research finds that people with EB in Ireland have access to excellent support in the specialist clinics in Children’s Health Ireland at Crumlin and St. James’s Hospital and community health teams. I wish to commend the work of those dedicated teams. However, many families continue to face significant challenges and unmet need for support while managing this difficult condition. Dr. Fiona Browne, lead dermatologist for the paediatric EB service in Ireland, said:

As physicians, it is incredibly frustrating to have nothing to offer patients other than supportive care. While there are treatments on the horizon, they are still some years away. We therefore need to ensure that the supportive care that we do offer is of the best standards, equitable and accessed without obstacles.

The report found that challenges remain in the context of the unreliable provision of home nursing care for people with EB, including the lack of a contingency plan for when nursing staff are unavailable or move on. As a result, family members often have to step in and perform bandage changes, inflicting tremendous pain and damaging fragile relationships, often between mother and child. To try to address this urgent need, Debra currently supplements nursing care at home for people who are in most need. However, we are seeking ring-fenced funding and a commitment to recruit for these hours and establish a sustainable service to ensure that people with severe EB can access this essential service in line with their growing needs.

The report also highlights the significant impact of EB on the mental health and quality of life of those with EB and their families. This condition can lead to a loss of mobility, impact on daily tasks and lead to social isolation or loss of work opportunities. This can have a significant impact on mental health. In fact, our findings show that people with EB have far higher rates of anxiety and depression compared with the general population.

As a key feature of this condition is living with the ongoing pain and distressing wound management practices, we advocate for specialist supports to help cope with this debilitating condition. A key recommendation based on the research was that extra funding should be provided to help appoint a clinical psychologist dedicated to supporting adults with EB.

The findings of the report clearly outline the burden of disease and emotional and social costs of this debilitating condition as well as informs our asks for ring-fenced funding and a commitment to recruit for a sustainable service and dedicated specialist support to meet the particular needs of those living with EB and the people who care for them.

We hope the findings of the report can inform the implementation of the recently published HSE document entitled National Rare Disease Office Inherited Epidermolysis Bullosa (EB) Paediatric and Adult Care Pathway, which is crucial in outlining the breadth of support needed by people with EB across acute and community settings, as well as the HSE rare disease plan currently being developed. To further support this goal, we are currently developing a second project aimed solely at generating in-depth evidence on access to EB services and supports in the Irish context to identify strengths, challenges and gaps in provision. We would welcome the opportunity to return to the Joint Committee on Health next year to present our findings and to outline any developments that may occur in the interim.

EB does not wait. It continues to wreak havoc on people and their families living with the condition in Ireland daily. We hope these people can be granted the much-needed services I mentioned while waiting for the HSE care pathway to be implemented. We are grateful to the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, for her support, which has led to the nomination of Debra as an organisation to receive some supports in the current health service plan that will go some way to relieve the pressures to deliver care for children with EB. We still need significantly more support for specialist health services in order that we do not leave anyone suffering with this rare and complex condition with unmet needs.

We thank the health committee for inviting us to talk about our report findings and its implications for the needs of people with EB and their families. We welcome the opportunity to discuss this topic further and answer any questions members may have.

I thank Dr. Hickey for her presentation. I fully understand that it is a challenging area for parents to deal with but also for the people who have the medical condition.

Regarding the issue of mental health, it is not only the person who has the condition but also I presume the immediate family needs that mental health support.

Dr. Rosemarie Watson

The Deputy is absolutely right. Sometimes, even the care providers, that is, the healthcare professionals, need support at times. This is where a psychologist comes in. Carers have a huge job. The burden of EB is enormous. They do not even get respite in sleep because there is pain in the night and itch. When the carers and parents come in to me, I can see the worry, stress and fear etched on their faces. We have seen how the introduction of 0.5 of a psychologist to the paediatric service has made an enormous difference.

Other international Debras have cited that one of the pivotal things you can do to improve quality of life in these patients and their families is to appoint a psychologist. We have one-----

Is Dr. Watson saying that where families are dealing with the issue that local is key? First, not all of these people are based in one area. We are talking about people right across the entire country from Kerry to Donegal. The problem then is that if you focus on one person, people are at a disadvantage if they are in another part of the country.

Dr. Rosemarie Watson

It will be shown that this person will link with the community. At the moment, Debra Ireland pays for 12 counselling sessions for people with EB. It is mainly the adults who need it because we have a psychologist in place in paediatrics. People very much want care close to home and we are very attuned to that but we need a psychologist who has an understanding of the whole world of EB who can link with the community. They support each other.

On the smaller issues, I remember when this first came to my attention back in 2014, there was a scenario where, for instance, the cost of bandages was not covered by the medical card scheme. I set up a meeting at the time with the medical card people and they are agreed to include it. It was a very big issue at the time for parents but are there smaller issues that could be dealt with immediately where the support that should be there is not there?

Dr. Sinéad Hickey

From the bandaging point of view, there are. People living with severe forms of EB have the cost of their bandages covered under the medical card however people living with less severe forms such as the EB simplex still pay out a lot of money on bandages though not as much as those with the severe forms. However, they may not qualify for the hardship scheme or the medial card but also these bandages are not covered under the drugs payment scheme, so they just have to buy them in their pharmacy. A small tube of Cavilon costs €20. When you are putting Mepilex and Tubifast on top of that then, the costs do add up therefore we are looking into putting these onto the drugs payment scheme.

Has Debra Ireland made a submission to the Department on that?

Dr. Sinéad Hickey

No, we have not yet made a submission.

Okay. It might be helpful if Dr. Hickey came back to us as well with that submission. Are there other areas in which small changes could make a big difference regarding support for parents and for the people who have the medical condition?

Ms Deirdre Callis

I will add to that as well regarding the psychologist. I take the Deputy's point about the community but St. James's Hospital runs multidisciplinary clinics as well a number of times a year where families are brought in. They would have the opportunity there to meet the multidisciplinary team and that psychologist would form an integral part of that team. Therefore, the support is there as well in the acute setting and as Dr. Hickey said, this person would be the link to the community.

Finally, on the research into ongoing care, given that EB is there for life. Is there much research being done into trying to establish better care plans at the moment or where are we with that?

Ms Deirdre Callis

The only management of it now is the medical management. There is a lot of research done on the biomedical management of EB, so we follow those care pathways. Regarding a cure, Dr. Hickey is probably best to talk about that. There are gene therapies available. Right now, they are just available in America but we are hopeful that they will be available in Ireland in the next few years. Right now, it is psychology support and the medical management of it that is needed.

Dr. Sinéad Hickey

There is no cure or treatments for EB, so it is very much a management of the condition at the moment. We have a submission from a company with the NCP at the moment to reimburse a drug to help with wound healing. We hope that will be successful. There is a gene therapy that has been approved by the FDA over in the US. It is a topical treatment to help with wound healing externally and it is showing very positive results. The company has just submitted to the EMA as well, so we hope to see that. Again, however, it will be a few years off and in the meantime we need to-----

Is there co-ordination at European level as regards advancing and approving the care?

Ms Deirdre Callis

Yes.

Dr. Rosemarie Watson

Yes, there is, through Debra International. There are research projects that are shared and Debra Ireland contributes significantly to the international research. Debra International is also promoting research in Ireland by linking with Government agencies. That is going very well. I am 30 years in the area of EB and I never though I would see a chance of cure in my lifetime. The gene therapy available now in the US and approved by the FDA has been in clinical trials and in clinical use for four years now. It can be used in children from as young as six months. It is healing wounds and also preventing the wounds from breaking down again because it is replacing the missing protein in the skin. This is very exciting. We are not there yet in Europe. The company has not yet applied to the European Medicines Agency for it but it will come because it is a complete game-changer in the management of this devastating condition.

The witnesses are very welcome to the committee. I commend Debra as a charity because I know the wonderful work it does for people with EB and their families. It is tremendous.

I have a follow-on question from what Deputy Burke asked about the bandage scheme. There have been requests and I know one of Debra's asks is the national bandage scheme that is operated in other countries. I think Australia has one. Are we getting anywhere closer to seeing that being realised? I know from talking to people with EB that sometimes the bandages they receive are not the right size, are not in sufficient quantity, or they are late coming to them and it can cause severe problems. If the correct bandages are not available, there is a risk of infection. Is that being considered?

Dr. Sinéad Hickey

There are a number of issues there. There is one around the covering of the bandage financially and then the whole process of issuing the bandages. The Deputy is correct. The bandages of people with severe forms of EB should be ready to collect at the public health centre monthly or whenever they collect them. I do not think there is the awareness of the importance of the sizing. They might get sizes too small. The suppliers might think they are fine without understanding the condition when in fact the people cannot use them so have to go back and look for more. This is a lot of pressure on parents who are already struggling trying to co-ordinate all the care in the home and then having to try to go back with issues with bandages as well. It is about fixing the system and building awareness there as well as making sure there is a bandage scheme for all people with EB in Ireland. Australia has a fantastic scheme where the bandages are delivered to the house every month for all types of EB, whether severe or not severe. Spain and the UK have similar. The UK has one particular supplier through pharmacies. Again, once people have a note from their clinician explaining what bandage types they need, this is all organised for them and they get that all going.

Ms Deirdre Callis

This is for all types of EB as well.

Dr. Sinéad Hickey

It is for all types of EB as well. It would be lovely to see something like that in Ireland as well.

EB is not included in the long-term illness scheme.

Ms Deirdre Callis

No.

I do not understand why that is. What benefits would that bring if EB was included?

Ms Deirdre Callis

If it was included in the long-term illness scheme, it would allow all families living with all types of EB to be able to access the medication, the dressings and the equipment specific to their type of EB. Currently, as Dr. Hickey and Dr. Watson said, a whole cohort of people are missing out. They earn too much to get the medical card and they are falling between the cracks. The long-term illness scheme would absolutely align with what we think is the right direction for people living with EB.

Why is EB not included? It is not curable and is a long-term illness. What is the reason given and what criteria does it not meet?

Ms Deirdre Callis

It is something we have to consider. I hate using the word "mild" because there is nothing mild about EB but the different severities cause complications. It is something we have to consider and really advocating and lobbying for that is on our agenda going forward.

The witnesses identified the fact that there are insufficient carers in the community and we know that. Do we not need to see specially-trained carers with EB? If there is a changeover between carers at all, it means somebody starting from scratch not knowing the extent of the situation. We hear from the Department all the time that the money is available but the carers just are not. Is there a possibility of looking at specially-trained carers for people with EB?

Dr. Sinéad Hickey

That is the biggest challenge that parents and carers of EB have at the moment. It is a huge stress. The home care nursing is subcontracted to agency nursing.

It is not an easy job. It involves doing a four-hour bandage change and inflicting pain on a child. It is horrendous, so it is a very niche area for a nurse to stay in and there is a real struggle around that. We have much experience of nurses being trained - and it is specialist training they need - and then moving on. With the agency care there is a lot of turnover so we get a lot of nurses moving on. I think one of the parents said in the audiovisual room last October that she had 39 nurses in one year. I think it could even have been one season. There is a huge struggle here. There is an issue with the supply of nurses in general, but then we are asking them to go into this niche area. We are asking for the implementation of a sustainable service where we can have a care co-ordinator who can co-ordinate all these nurses so the parents do not have the stress of having to do that. They will not have to worry about which nurse is going to cover next week when their nurse is on annual leave or if a nurse moves on and that training must start all over again. Then there is having the outreach nurse in place as well for the adult services. We have a fantastic system in place for the youth services at the moment, so it is about putting that into the adult services. We would then have nurses coming from the acute setting to the community to train these nurses and giving them support to help them stay as well. We need to do something around the price point of nursing to make it more attractive for nurses to stay in this setting, because that is the biggest challenge for people with EB at the moment.

Ms Deirdre Callis

I agree with Dr. Hickey. There is a real problem with retention as well as with recruitment. On retention, if we can get the moneys for an adult outreach nurse, they will support the nurses who are leaving now. That would make a big difference. From the retention point of view, the nurses find the hours difficult. They are approved for three to four hours three times a week and most nurses want more time than that, so if we could try to find a solution for that it would be great. We suggest increased remuneration because these are complex care nurses. This is a special niche. They are very special people who will make a huge difference in people's lives. There probably are nurses out there who would like to take it on but do not feel they have the flexibility to take on just the three hours three days a week. Increased remuneration would go a long way to help retain them.

My time is up, but I quickly mention the economic burden on people with EB is massive. I assume it means having to purchase all the services.

Dr. Sinéad Hickey

It includes bandages, hospital visits and everything. Debra supports people with grants as much as we can, but there is a huge financial burden. If you have a new baby born with EB, you have lost the life you knew before. Most of them are inherited recessively, so they have no idea before the child is born that they have EB. A parent usually has to give up their life, their work to care for the child, so there is a loss of earnings for the parent from having to give up work. There is no contribution from the child because when they grow up, they will not work either. There are hospital stays, bandaging costs, costs for PAs and home nursing care. It all adds up.

I thank the Chair.

I wish everyone a good morning. I thank the witnesses for they work they do in advocating for and supporting families dealing with this issue. I have a number of questions. The witnesses have told us there are about 300 people living with EB in the country. What kind of prevalence is that? Is it standard at, say, European level?

Dr. Rosemarie Watson

Yes. Numbers usually increase a little bit with immigration. There are increased numbers where there is intermarriage among cousins, etc., but our numbers have been fairly steady and are comparable with other countries. About one in 16,000 births will be affected by EB.

Okay, and that does not vary much depending on the country.

Dr. Rosemarie Watson

No. As I said, immigration may change that over time, but at the moment that number has been fairly steady.

All right. The information the witnesses gave us on progress with gene therapy is very encouraging.

Dr. Rosemarie Watson

It is just amazing. They will need nurses in the home to be able to access that therapy because the healthcare professional has to apply the therapy on the wounds. It is a gel that is applied. This is another reason for our ask for nurses. We want it all in place when the time comes.

Sure. Have the witnesses any indication of when the application may be made at European level for the new treatment?

Dr. Sinéad Hickey

It is happening at the moment. They are just getting their submission together, so it should be any day now, we hope. I presume that will take 18 months to come through and then it will be accessible in countries like Germany and Austria. We will have to go through the NCPE process after that.

Okay. That is very hopeful for the future. Will the witnesses explain how the system of supports operates at the moment? Is it a question of people qualifying on income grounds for a medical card or not? Are there other supports given the nature of the condition?

Ms Deirdre Callis

Right now, if it is paediatrics, the main support is us or Crumlin Hospital. Adults link in with St. James's Hospital and again us. In the community the more severe types of EB have access to all the bandaging and equipment they need as well. The milder - I use that term very lightly - the diagnosis, the less is available to a person. A huge cohort of our families living with simplex work, so that would max them out of applying for a medical card. With the drugs payment scheme, if the dressing are on it, which a lot of them are not, people still have to pay €80 per month to access a certain amount of dressings. As my colleagues said earlier, it is not even a case of swapping those out for cheaper ones, because you cannot. Only these really specific dressings can be used and the price point is incredibly expensive.

Are those dressings and the treatment on prescription?

Ms Deirdre Callis

Some of them, but not all of them. The more severe cases will get them because of the severity of their EB, but not all of them are available on prescription.

That seems like a fairly straightforward decision that could be taken that would be a huge help to people.

Ms Deirdre Callis

Yes, absolutely.

Ms Callis referred to severe and simplex cases and I do not think there is anything simple about the simplex cases.

Ms Deirdre Callis

I agree.

What is the split within that cohort of 300?

Ms Deirdre Callis

It is about 70:30. Would that not be right, Dr. Watson?

Dr. Rosemarie Watson

Yes, 70% of people have the milder forms and 30% the more severe forms. Thus, the majority of the people have a problem with accessing the right bandages.

Ms Deirdre Callis

I apologise for cutting across, but I had better say before I forget that mobility is an issue. If people living with simplex had access to bus travel that would keep them in employment, if they had a blue badge. We have had huge problems with people not being able to park near their place of employment and having to walk there. Their feet are blistered by the time they get to work, but they have nothing to demonstrate they have this condition. That might be another thing we could consider.

Okay. Will the witnesses talk about the role of pain relief and the support available for it.

Dr. Rosemarie Watson

Obviously, this is a very painful condition and 30% of people with severe EB will have open wounds over 30% of their body, which is an awful lot, so right from birth we give pain relief. Paracetamol is not going to do it. A number of them require opiates, but in paediatrics we use play therapy to help with procedures to reduce pain. Psychology is another very useful, holistic look at helping with pain. The majority of the severe patients are probably on opiates. Lots of other things have been considered, even the cannabinoids are beginning to be looked at in international studies.

I take it all those are either available on the medical card or drug payment scheme.

Dr. Rosemarie Watson

We do well with medications. They are usually available. I do not have a problem with that.

Moving to the specialist nurses and the dressings, clearly it is a very challenging and difficult role. Is it essential that service is provided by nurses?

Dr. Rosemarie Watson

That is a good point.

Ms Callis may be able to add to this. Some families have a healthcare assistant. The problem there is that healthcare assistants cannot work independently if the nurse is on holidays or sick, for example. They can just hand bandages to the nurses, in essence. If the healthcare assistant rule is changed, we might be able to access more help there. The ideal standard would be nursing, however.

It is shocking that Debra has to provide so much financial support to people. Given the nature of the condition, it is shocking that the support is not available from the State. Has Debra met the Minister recently regarding its budget asks? How is Debra funded?

Dr. Sinéad Hickey

We have requested meetings with the Minister on several occasions in the past two years but have not been successful thus far. We will keep asking.

Dr. Rosemarie Watson

I have met with several Ministers in the past 30 years. The HSE has come through for us over the years. The service is unrecognisable compared with what it was 30 years ago. We had patients who were using J Cloths with ointments on them for bandages. To its credit, the HSE has listened over time and given us funding for the adult and paediatric hospital services. We are deeply grateful for that. From that point of view, we compare very well with other countries in Europe. I will relate a story where we were very proud of what we had received. An American microbiologist lab technician came to St. James's Hospital. She was on holidays and got an illness that required surgery. She was in the emergency room, telling them about EB and was very worried because once you go into an operating room, you are asleep and have no control. People can damage you unwittingly with tape, blood pressure monitors and so on. She was telling them about the condition and the emergency room doctor told her she needed to see the EB specialist nurse. She said, "Oh my God, in all my years in America I have never met an EB nurse."

That is good to hear. I ask Dr. Watson to address the issue of community services.

Dr. Rosemarie Watson

The place we have gaps is the community services. There is no doubt about that. The Deputy asked about funding in that regard. Again, the HSE has listened and given us a funding package. All newborns with severe EB get that package, which is wonderful. The package has some problems, however. A newborn gets the same package as a person who is 18 years of age, for example. Nursing requirements and so on change through that time. We need more flexible packages. We will have to go back for that battle.

I thank Dr. Watson.

I will stay on the community support side and some of the subsidiary supports. I thank the witnesses for their opening statement, but also the detailed report that was provided. It is great to see a report that focuses specifically on well-being as a result of a condition. We do not always get to look at it in a holistic way. Some of the issues I picked out relate to mental health and dental care. That longer report referred to an issue around dental care and accessing dental care. The report states the centrality of Dublin alleviates some of that but that in Austria, for example, training of specialists in dental support was undertaken. I ask the witnesses to expand on where we are in Ireland with regard to the accessibility of dental services for people experiencing EB.

Dr. Sinéad Hickey

At the moment, those under the acute setting care can access dentistry through that care. It is far more difficult for those with less severe forms of EB, however. We are trying to do a piece of research on that with a dental nurse in Crumlin and with University College Cork, but we have been unable to get funding for it. We hope to do that-----

Debra has been unable to get funding for the research.

Dr. Sinéad Hickey

We need research on access to dentistry and to get an understanding of what the barriers are. We have a dentist in Crumlin who is specialised in EB but there is no knowledge for other dentists out in the community.

Ms Deirdre Callis

We often find they are nervous.

Dr. Sinéad Hickey

Yes, they do not want to-----

I can understand that.

Ms Deirdre Callis

The community dentists are afraid to go near these-----

Dr. Rosemarie Watson

They can cause a lot of damage. As patients with EB get more blistering when they go to even the best-trained dentist, dentists in the community are nervous to treat them. The problem is in community services. Patients cannot be going back and forth to hospitals for frequent visits. That is something on which we can improve.

Anecdotally, do the witnesses believe people are travelling long distances to come to Dublin, for example, from down the country for dentistry?

Dr. Rosemarie Watson

Yes.

A section of the report deals with physiotherapy. There has been reference to physiotherapy in the community. Is that home care or is it in a primary care setting?

Dr. Rosemarie Watson

It is in a primary care setting.

I presume that is a specialist requirement, given that it involves manipulating limbs and so on.

Dr. Rosemarie Watson

Local physiotherapists would need to have basic EB training from the mother ship, so to speak, because their role is to help to strengthen and stretch the limbs and there may also be a role in splinting of the hands. They would need support. At the moment, it is difficult. There are some local physiotherapists helping out and our physiotherapy department in the hospitals always tries to make a link in the community because patients may have to make frequent visits.

Do primary care physiotherapists seeking to access training in EB go to Debra or can they access it through their own training?

Ms Deirdre Callis

They would have to link in with St. James's or Crumlin.

Dr. Rosemarie Watson

Apologies for interrupting. The outreach nurse would play a big role in education and probably attend some of the early visits with the physiotherapist in order that they become familiar and comfortable with what they are doing.

I know the witnesses do not run the primary care centres but, anecdotally, is there access to that kind of training regionally in communities?

Dr. Rosemarie Watson

Is the Deputy referring to training in EB?

Training in EB specifically, yes.

Dr. Rosemarie Watson

They would have to be taught it. I had to be taught it when I went into it.

Are there staff in primary care who have that training in place?

Ms Deirdre Callis

Not in the community, no.

Dr. Rosemarie Watson

No.

I ask the witnesses to expand on the issue of mental health supports. The significant burden in terms of mental health comes up throughout the report. The committee has previously discussed the specific needs of people with medical conditions and the types of support they require. Is that accessible? Is it being provided through primary care? Are people going to private providers? What is the situation in that regard?

Ms Deirdre Callis

Debra currently funds counselling for people who are linked in with Debra. We fund a minimum of 12 sessions and that can be extended to 24, depending on the need. Right now, we are funding that privately with families. We need 0.5 WTE psychologists in St. James's Hospital. That would allow families to access psychology when they attend their multi-disciplinary team, MDT, which happens a couple of times a year. More funding is needed. We are currently funding-----

Debra is funding-----

Ms Deirdre Callis

Debra is funding-----

The HSE, through primary care, is not------

Ms Deirdre Callis

No. There are long waiting lists. It is very specialised. We fund counselling for families that are-----

Is that similar across paediatric and adult services?

Ms Deirdre Callis

There is a fantastic 0.5 WTE post in Crumlin at the moment and we are seeing the benefits of that already. The majority of those who currently access their funding from Debra are adults. We funded some play therapy sessions but the majority are adults. There are also carers.

We have started a discussion and we are all delighted to hear that work is being done in the US and there is research or treatment on the horizon. Dr. Watson stated that is a genetic-based treatment.

Dr. Rosemarie Watson

It is a genetic treatment. There are other treatments in the pipeline. In the next ten years, people with EB will find there are several treatments they are facing. The gene therapy is for a specific form of EB. It is one of the most severe forms. In addition, drugs are being repurposed from other areas and may benefit EB patients. There are also the other wound healing agents that are coming on board. They are showing a significant difference as well.

I am out of time but to follow up on that point as it is in the realm of gene therapy, do sufferers currently get access to genetic counselling?

Dr. Rosemarie Watson

They do. We have a good relationship-----

Particularly for families who are making a decision around-----

Dr. Rosemarie Watson

-----with the department of genetics.

I thank Dr. Watson.

Dr. Rosemarie Watson

I will just add, from the psychologists' point of view, that the importance of having a psychologist in the hospitals as well as in the community is that many people do not want to go to a psychologist. There is a barrier there. In Austria, nobody wants to see a psychologist. Here, if there is a psychologist available from day one to meet the family with the team, they do not see it as abnormal.

Dr. Sinéad Hickey

The idea is that the psychologist, by meeting patients in their clinic appointment in the acute setting, builds a relationship with them so that when a crisis hits, they have built that relationship and can feel comfortable approaching that psychologist.

I welcome Ms Rachel Connors and Casey Connors to the Public Gallery. We will have a chat with them later on.

I thank the witnesses for attending. It has been a very enlightening meeting, and fair play to them for all of the great work they do.

I will ask questions that the other members have not had answered because I am the fifth or sixth member to speak in a row. On environmental conditions for somebody with epidermolysis bullosa, direct sunlight would obviously be detrimental, although perhaps I am wrong about that. With regard to environmental factors, what role does they play? Does exposure to sunlight play a role for the sufferer?

Dr. Rosemarie Watson

It limits people, particular those with more severe EB. As regards sunlight, their skin is much thinner than ours in areas, so that is something they would have to protect against. Heat vastly increases the blistering, especially when someone is under heavy bandages. That can be extremely uncomfortable. Extreme cold or wind can cause burning sensations on the skin. I am trying to think if there are any other environmental-----

Ms Deirdre Callis

Infections.

Dr. Rosemarie Watson

Yes, bugs.

Ms Deirdre Callis

Even being out in the air can cause problems if Casey does not have her dressings on or if the bandages are off her skin. If they are not there, she is absolutely-----

Dr. Rosemarie Watson

-----more prone to infection.

Ms Deirdre Callis

Yes.

The Irish climate is not too hot and not too cold.

Dr. Rosemarie Watson

It is not the worst. I have been in Australia and I have seen the sufferers come into their clinics in their flip-flops, and whatever, and I was amazed they are able to wear flip-flops with their feet. They had acclimatised. We are not the worst country as we have a more temperate climate.

On new treatments, gene therapy and so forth, medical cannabis and cannabinoids were mentioned.

Dr. Rosemarie Watson

Yes.

I was looking up the research and the results are actually quite good.

Dr. Rosemarie Watson

Yes.

Ms Deirdre Callis

Yes.

Has medical cannabis been used in the treatment of EB?

Dr. Rosemarie Watson

Yes. There is research. Does Ms Callis wish to add to that?

Ms Deirdre Callis

It has been used for adults and it makes an impact.

Would that be in an ointment or a medication for pain relief?

Dr. Sinéad Hickey

There are two therapies being developed at the moment and they are in clinical trial phase. One is an ointment or cream which can be put on the skin and the second one is in the form of a drop which is placed underneath the tongue. They are in clinical trial phase at the moment.

I was just reading about that in Britain. It is very interesting. Do the witnesses know anybody who has been prescribed medical cannabis for EB in Britain or Ireland?

Ms Deirdre Callis

We have some adults who are accessing that at the moment.

Is that in Ireland?

Ms Deirdre Callis

Yes.

Dr. Rosemarie Watson

It will not replace other pain medications but we believe it will be a useful adjunct.

Are they getting this medication under a licence?

Ms Deirdre Callis

It is through a prescription from their hospital.

Is it through the medical cannabis access programme?

Ms Deirdre Callis

I do not know.

Dr. Rosemarie Watson

I am retired and I was not doing it in my time.

I will have to do a little research. It is interesting.

Dr. Sinéad Hickey

We can come back to the Deputy on that question.

It is a field that I am very interested in. Others members asked many of the questions I had intended asking. I do not want to be repetitive so I will hand over to whichever of my esteemed colleagues is next.

Our next esteemed colleague is Senator Hoey who will join us online. Is the Senator on the premises of Leinster House?

Yes, I am. Can the Cathaoirleach not tell given that I am floating out on the plinth in front of everyone? I thank the witnesses who have covered so much. What is the training pathway for specialists in this area? We have all heard the figures on consultant posts not being filled. I am interested in finding out about the training pathway. What is the specialty and what is the uptake among people coming up through the system? Is there any concern about having enough of those specialists? Is there a shortage? What is the position around that?

I have another question on the carer’s allowance. If someone is caring for a person with EB who is aged under 16 and meets the income threshold and other requirements, will he or she be able to claim the carer’s allowance or domiciliary allowance? Is it a qualifying illness? How does that work for carers whose income is under the threshold?

Dr. Rosemarie Watson

Those are very good questions. In the past, there were about 17 consultant specialists in the hospitals that EB patients attend but the lead specialist in most countries is usually a dermatologist. That is because of the large amount of wound care involved.

How are we trained? My training was on the job but that is a long time ago. Nowadays, we are trying to attract people in because we had a long gap during which we did not have an adult consultant. Debra Ireland is teaching in the universities to try to attract medical students early. Some of the EB patients have actually gone to the universities to talk to the students. That has been a very positive experience which we are very grateful to Debra Ireland for.

One of the problems in paediatrics is that by the time the dermatology trainees get to us, it is usually year three and while they are more experienced at that time, the downside is that they tend to have made up their minds to stay in adult dermatology or not to go into EB. As such, we have a little problem to work on in that area.

We get our training through the international conferences. We have gone individually. Great Ormond Street Hospital for Children trained us. When we opened our first EB clinics in 1996, I think, it sent over a team comprising a physiotherapist, dietician and nurse. They were with us for about two years as we did our clinics. That was absolutely amazing and it was courtesy of DEBRA UK and the people in Great Ormond Street Hospital for Children. That is generally how the training occurs.

I will ask Ms Callis to respond on the carer’s allowance.

Ms Deirdre Callis

Most parents with children who have severe types of EB will qualify for a carer’s allowance. As my colleague, Dr. Hickey, said, one parent will also have to give up employment to become the full-time carer. A household that may have had two strong incomes prior will see one income fall to €200-odd a week. That creates a huge discrepancy between the parents’ current and previous earning capacity. I hope that answers the Senator’s question.

It does. That is great.

I thank the witnesses for giving us the benefit of their advice this morning. On the condition itself, and in an attempt to alleviate the pain, suffering and distress to the patients and their families, to what extent has it been deemed appropriate to have a full medical card in each case because of the ongoing nature of the treatment and the requirement above and beyond what would be regarded as normal, keeping in mind that patients with cancer or life-threatening illnesses have always been deemed to be entitled to avail of a full medical card?

Ms Deirdre Callis

That is where we are going and what we want. We want people living with EB to have full access to a medical card regardless of means. That is one of our hopes and, right now, those who are not living with the more severe type of EB and are working and whose household income is over a certain amount are disqualified from accessing a medical card. That is the current position. Our hope is that we will move in to the long-term illness category, which would give access to a medical card, equipment and medication, or that we get discretionary access for people who are living with EB, which is a long-term illness. The condition does not go away and our hope is that people will receive a letter stating that because they have EB, they can have discretionary access to medication and the bandages that are available on the medical card.

To what extent has there been access to pain alleviation clinics, given the nature of the illness and the treatment required? Is there access to pain alleviation and does it work?

Dr. Rosemarie Watson

There are pain specialists in both Crumlin and St. James hospitals and we have leaned on them a lot over the years. The pain specialist in Crumlin left but I do not know if a replacement has been appointed yet. When a pain specialist has not been available, the anaesthetists in the hospital have helped us. Patients are often on very strong doses of medication so we need their input and advice and that is available for those who need it.

To what extent is access to rare or orphan medicines required? Are such medicines available and is access to them ongoing? What are the expectations of the witnesses in that area in the short term?

Dr. Rosemarie Watson

We have not had a problem accessing most of the medications, except the ones that are not covered on the medical card, but patients can apply to the hardship scheme for those. In terms of treatment, we do not know what is going to happen with the birch tree pollen-----

Dr. Sinéad Hickey

There is a product that is with the NCPE at the moment and a number of people in Ireland are using it on a compassionate use basis. If it is approved for reimbursement by the NCPE we hope that it will be rolled out to all patients with severe forms of EB.

When the witnesses reached out to Great Ormond Street hospital and it responded, was there a noticeable improvement in the availability of services and medicines for this particular illness?

Dr. Rosemarie Watson

When Great Ormond Street staff came back in the 1990s, they brought with them the specialties that make a big difference to the day-to-day lives of people with EB, namely dieticians, physiotherapists, doctors and, most importantly, nurses. Everybody in our hospital learned from their experience and they stayed with us for two years to embed that information. We felt we got great training.

For our families, it was night and day. Crumlin was the only place they were coming to then. We actually saw a 33-year-old in Crumlin hospital. We must be the only specialty that ever did that. There was no adult service then so the patient came to Crumlin and it worked out fine. Obviously we do not have to do that now, which is good.

Is there a standard approach or treatment regime from childhood into adulthood? Is there an organised programme of care?

Dr. Rosemarie Watson

We have submitted the care pathway to the National Rare Diseases Office. That is with the office and it has been published and the hope is that the HSE will back all of the services that are required. Debra International has internationally-agreed guidelines for care in several areas. There must be ten or more sets of guidelines now including psychosocial management, emergency management, operating room management and dental management among others. Those guidelines are available at the click of a button now. Anyone can get those which is a huge improvement over my time.

Dr. Sinéad Hickey

EB is a rare disease so it is important that the international rare disease EB community works together. Crumlin is an expert centre that is part of the European reference network for skin. A group of European dermatologists work together to troubleshoot for EB. Debra International brings a lot of the experts together to publish clinical practice guidelines that can be used not only in developed countries but also in those countries that do not have clinical services for EB.

I commend the witnesses on the very constructive work they have done and the manner in which they have gone about it. They have worked to deal with the situation and to provide as much relief from discomfort, pain and suffering as possible. As a committee, we should pursue their cause further with the Minister with a view to determining if further help can be made available.

I concur with what my colleagues have said. I welcome the witnesses and thank them for being here. I first came across this issue five or six years ago and have always taken an interest in it. It is great that there have been some developments in the US, although they will probably take some time to reach us here, which is always an issue.

Are any supports being provided to the siblings of children with EB? As is often the case when somebody in a family has a disability or an illness, siblings can be affected in ways that are not known or understood. Given the nature of EB and the obvious pain it causes, it must surely have an effect on siblings.

Ms Deirdre Callis

Our counselling grant is available to any family member. When patients are accessing the acute setting, that is extended to families as well. A couple of years ago, Debra introduced the sibling appreciation grant whereby the person living with EB would nominate his or her sibling, creating the space to acknowledge what it is to be the sibling of somebody with a chronic illness. It is really important and is one of the little things that we do every couple of years that is really embraced by families. It highlights the role that siblings play in a family living with EB. As I said, we extend our counselling grants to all family members.

Do many siblings within families take up that option?

Ms Deirdre Callis

No, the take-up is low. We have had some children do play therapy but the take-up is low. There is a gap there.

Dr. Rosemarie Watson

Debra continues to work on that and is to be commended on all the work it does to bring joy to the families of people with EB. It runs so many programmes, including at Barretstown, and is just wonderful. We would not have the services we have today without Debra. It really got us on the road and has raised the awareness of EB so that people, including my friends who know nothing about medicine, have heard about the butterfly children. It is a credit to Debra. Thanks must also go to the HSE for funding the programmes for us, which has made a huge difference.

It is rare that people come in here and actually have good things to say about the HSE, even though it does lots of good work.

Dr. Rosemarie Watson

It does not get advertised.

It is a great organisation but that does not get acknowledged. The committee's role is to stress-test and deal with issues to which the HSE is not responding but it is good to hear the other side as well. I thank our the witnesses and congratulate them on all their great work.

As Senator was saying, the first time he came across EB was a number of years ago. The first time I actually heard of it was a long time ago. A cousin of mine was having a significant birthday and he decided that we would all donate or pay in to his party. It was a fundraiser for Debra and he outlined to us that night the nature of this genetic disorder. We all came away having not only enjoyed the night but also feeling that we had done something positive for a really good cause. I urge anyone who wants to mark a significant birthday to think about doing the same thing.

I have a couple of questions. The witnesses referred to the impact of the disorder and mentioned diet in particular. I ask them to expand on that. Are there certain foods that can be eaten or not eaten?

Dr. Rosemarie Watson

Yes, that is one part of it but there are also huge calorific needs for people with EB because they are wound healing and that is extra work that the body has to do. They need to have a big increase in calories but, at the same time, they have blisters in their mouths and throats so they cannot eat certain foods. They cannot eat anything that will aggravate that blistering.

They need a lot of protein in their diet because they are making protein to heal their wounds. The dietician is there to increase the calorie intake for these children and adults, and they take in a lot more than the Cathaoirleach or I would. They sometimes cannot take in enough calories through their mouth and we offer them feeding tubes to get the extra calories in. It is complex and it needs a specialist dietician.

I am conscious there are little ears in the audience. With regard to the disorder itself, Dr. Watson referred to the challenge if people do not have a specialist nurse to change the bandage. The last thing any parent wants to do is hurt their own child but that is what is happening. Will Dr. Watson explain what is involved?

Dr. Rosemarie Watson

The patient referred to by Dr. Hickey addressed this very well when she said that she just dreads her mother coming into the room. People know it is bandage day and that is a big fear because they are inflicting pain and everybody is upset; the child is upset, the parent is upset and the siblings are upset. It is about having an extra person who can take the time to make sure the pain medications are in there before they start with the bandage. There are tricks to help not pulling off sticky bandages by soaking them for X amount of time. An objective person like the nurse can look at the environment, put on music and do anything that will lessen the discomfort and pain during that time. Unfortunately, it is there, and they have to go through those dressing changes or, otherwise, they face infection and the complications of that. It has to be done, unfortunately.

Dr. Sinéad Hickey

The relationship between the mother and child is very important. It puts such pressure on that when the parent has to inflict pain, whereas somebody coming in is more objective and can control it better but it also removes that stress on the relationship of the parent inflicting the pain on the child, especially at a young age.

The witnesses said there are approximately 300 people with the condition. Is that on the island of Ireland or just the South? Is there a similar organisation or does Debra operate across the island?

Dr. Rosemarie Watson

It is the South that we are talking about but we do take care of some others and about 10% of the patients going to Crumlin are from the North. They do not have their own service and in the past, they had to travel to the UK for the service, so a number of them come to our service in Dublin.

Ms Deirdre Callis

We support them as well. We have a partnership with Debra UK. Logistically, as it is easier for us to get to the North of Ireland, we support a number of families in the North as well.

We are conscious that there is a specialist area for cancers, although that is a bigger proportion of the population. Would there be any benefit to having something like that? Let us say that a number of people are based in Dublin. Will the development of the national children’s hospital help? I am listening to what the witnesses are saying in regard to specialist nurses and the three hours issue clearly needs to be looked at. Is there space within the development of the national children's hospital or will it continue at Crumlin? I do not know.

Dr. Rosemarie Watson

It will be in the national children's hospital. The beauty of it is that it is close to St. James's, which is the adult centre. Cross-communication is vital and it will also mean that cross-training is easier.

With regard to specialist nurses, is there an advantage to getting the bandages changed at home, given people have an independent life or would it be beneficial to have it done centrally?

Dr. Rosemarie Watson

As it is three times a week, that is not practical.

Dr. Sinéad Hickey

Exactly. We have patients in Cork, Galway and everywhere else, so it is not feasible for them to come up every second day. We have a patient who gets bandages changed every day so it is not feasible for her to travel to the site.

Ms Deirdre Callis

It is also less stressful. We find that when people come to the hospital, stress is induced even on the way into the car park. At least if people are at home, we are doing everything we can to alleviate that unnecessary stress in an already stressful situation.

Dr. Rosemarie Watson

We want to minimise the number of visits to the hospital because even travel to the hospital from, say, Donegal causes damage to the skin just from being in a car for that length of time. We want, and our families and patients want, to have the care as close to home as possible. That is the objective of Sláintecare and we are all for that.

I am just trying to tease out what would be the best model. It does not make sense that people have to travel long distances. Again, to take the comparison of the cancer model, we were recently in Altnagelvin Area Hospital and we saw that people from Donegal can go there as the nearest specialist area. If there are clusters in a particular area-----

Dr. Rosemarie Watson

There are dermatology departments around the country and we have worked with those. They can manage a certain amount of the complications and issues. We have that relationship with dermatology departments.

Dr. Watson referred to the medical card and both the physical cost and the mental cost. I presume the financial cost ranges depending on whether the condition is more or less severe. Can the witnesses outline the rough financial cost of this?

Dr. Rosemarie Watson

Research has been done in that area but it has been somewhat hampered by the sample sizes being too small to look at costings or it has bunched everything together, with the simplex and all the other subtypes bunched together, as opposed to being costed individually. It works out that the direct cost for a patient with the more severe form of recessive dystrophic EB is about €79,000 a year, which equates pretty well with the UK figures, although we are not sure that these studies are accurate for the reasons I mentioned. If we count direct and indirect costs, some research has been done on that in Ireland by Dr. Darragh Flannery, who estimated that direct and indirect costs are about €130,000 a year. However, that is spread over everybody.

Dr. Sinéad Hickey

They were very small sample sizes.

Dr. Rosemarie Watson

There were only about 14 in the sample.

Dr. Sinéad Hickey

It was actually only six. We would like to do more research on that but it is obviously time-consuming and we do not want to add an extra burden for parents who are already co-ordinating all the care for their children. Nonetheless, we would like to do more research into that in the future.

Dr. Rosemarie Watson

It is in the strategy plan.

I apologise for focusing on the financial element of this. Has Debra worked out how much it would cost the Exchequer to give everyone a medical card or a long-term payment?

Ms Deirdre Callis

No, but we need to. We can work on that.

As it is such a small sample, it would be quite small in the overall health budget but as the witnesses have explained, it would be significant for those families and individuals. I again give a commitment that we will try to follow up on many of these issues.

I understand Deputy Lahart wishes to come in.

I thank the Chair. I was not present for all of the meeting but I was listening to much of it. I am struck that it is three women who are representing Debra. Does that reflect a breakdown in those who experience the condition?

Dr. Sinéad Hickey

No. About 87% of the people we engage with are female but they would generally be mothers of people with EB, as the carers tend to be mothers.

Dr. Rosemarie Watson

The mothers do the immediate caring and the fathers do all the bureaucracy. Sometimes in a family, they both help. In fact, it has become a problem for one of our patients. The father was doing the dressings but when the girl reached puberty, he had to back off and the mother was left just by herself, so that was an issue.

Debra is paying for nurse hours to the tune of €82,000 a year. That is because when the child turns 18, he or she goes from the public health nurses to the disability services. They have found that the disability services do not have the resources to fund these nurses, or that is what we have been told. Ms Callis may know more.

Ms Deirdre Callis

Exactly. As somebody gets older, the condition progresses and a lot more care is required.

We are good at getting the six-week-old babies' care package in place. That is for 18 hours a week. As the child gets older, it is a real fight to get those packages expanded. When a child ages out at 18 years, he or she moves into disability services and there is no funding. We had funding for hours for an adult rejected last year. We needed ten extra hours for her care and it was rejected. That means we have been funding her care since 2019. We also have a case in Dublin where a ten-year-old who requested an additional home-care assistant for nine hours per week had that request rejected. There seems to be a lack of understanding that this is a vital requirement. We get them over the line eventually, or the parents do, but it requires a huge battle, on occasion, to get that.

I chair an ad hoc cross-party committee on rare diseases. It is not an official Oireachtas committee such as this one. I thank Ms Callis for alerting us to this issue. There is a conference on rare diseases tomorrow in Farmleigh. I do not know whether Debra Ireland is represented. I hope to be there for an hour or two in the morning. I have no doubt I speak for my colleagues when I say this meeting has been an education. If there is list of issues, please do not be shy in raising them. I took a note of the last point raised. Members, including the Cathaoirleach, would welcome it if the witnesses wrote parliamentary questions for us. We will then ask the questions. We can shake the tree that way and see what the formal answer is.

Ms Callis mentioned there are treatments on the horizon. Can she say how far away that horizon is and what those treatments might be?

Dr. Sinéad Hickey

Unfortunately, technology development takes time. A number of treatments are going through clinical trials at the moment. There are four subtypes of EB but many different subtypes under those as well. A gene therapy will not be a one-type-fits-all treatment. It will be specific to certain types of EB. Hopefully, in the future, each person who is living with EB will have a combination of different treatments to control his or her condition, similar to cystic fibrosis. We spend a great deal of money and put much effort into funding research. We partner with the Irish Research Council and the Health Research Board to fund researchers in Ireland developing treatments and also with the Debra organisations internationally on funding international research. We hope these will all go through that process, which takes years. However, some treatments are coming through the pipeline in phases 1, 2 and 3 of clinical trials. They need to go through those clinical trials, which take years, and then move on through the European Medicines Agency and the National Centre for Pharmacoeconomics. Realistically, we have one treatment, which we discussed earlier, that has been submitted to the NCPE. We hope to get a decision on that in the next few months. The first gene therapy is in the process of being submitted to the EMA. It is already available in the United States where the Food and Drug Administration approved it last year. That is having a significant affect on people with recessive dystrophic EB, a certain type of severe EB. The horizon is looking good but it will be a long time before we see really significant differences.

In their first term, very often, Deputies are hit with everything and if they are lucky and privileged enough to be elected for a second term, certainly in my case, they realise they cannot solve every problem so they try to advocate for some key issues. Rare disease became an area of interest for me. For Huntington's disease for example, we went through a process. The advocates came before us and presented to Members of the Oireachtas in the audiovisual room. While we have not got a pathway of care for them, there have been some pronounced improvements there. Through the Cathaoirleach, that facility is open to Debra Ireland to seek to come in to address Members. They may be coming and going because there are many things going on. However, it would give the organisation about 45 minutes to raise its profile. The profile piece-----

Dr. Sinéad Hickey

We have done that.

Was that in this term?

Ms Deirdre Callis

Yes, in November 2023 we launched this report.

Great. That was here.

Dr. Rosemarie Watson

Yes, we did it in previous years as well.

I am sorry for teaching my grannies how to suck eggs, metaphorically speaking. If there are parliamentary questions we can help with, we will be happy to do that.

It is positive that Debra Ireland has praised the work of the HSE. It is always good to hear that things are working within the system. We hear a great deal of negativity about our health service. Given that so many people rely on it, that is really positive. We will try to follow up with the HSE on where the care pathway is at and ask some of the other questions in regard to the medical card, the long-term illness scheme and the other points made this morning about-----

Dr. Sinéad Hickey

The point about the bus passes is important.

-----he parking disc and all those issues. I was also struck by the idea of bandages being delivered in another jurisdiction. It will be useful to get a sense of how much that would cost the Exchequer. These are all issues that the committee can certainly follow up.

If there is anything else the witnesses feel they missed this morning, they can treat this meeting as the start of a conversation with the committee. It was very useful, certainly for anyone listening at home, to know that these families have not been forgotten. We are concerned about what families and loved ones are going through.

It is positive news for all the families in question that there are possible research outcomes down the road. There is much we can still do while waiting for that. We heard about specialist nurses and particular attention needs to be paid to that. I hope the committee, in its report on today's meeting, will make positive recommendations in that regard.

I thank the witnesses for their time and engagement with the committee this morning. This has been a useful session. I hope we will be able to follow up with some positive news for the families who are in this situation. I again thank the representatives of Debra Ireland for their engagement with the committee on this important matter.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.27 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 20 March 2024.
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