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JOINT COMMITTEE ON HEALTH AND CHILDREN debate -
Thursday, 15 May 2003

Vol. 1 No. 8

Drinks Industry: Presentation.

I welcome Mr. Pat Barry, head of corporate affairs, Diageo Ireland; Kieran Tobin, corporate affairs director of Irish Distillers Limited; John Pearson, managing director of Edward Dillon and Company; Mr. Patrick Conway, filling in for Declan Farmer, corporate affairs manager, Heineken Ireland; Alf Smiddy, managing director of Beamish & Crawford; and Fionnuala Sheehan, chief executive officer of Mature Enjoyment of Alcohol in Society Limited.

Members of the committee have absolute privilege. Unfortunately, the same privilege does not apply to those appearing before it. Members should note the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

We have agreed that there will be two speakers. They may now make their presentations.

Mr. Pat Barry

I thank the committee for affording us the opportunity to discuss this subject. I assure the committee that, as an industry, we fully recognise that the abuse of alcohol is now a most serious issue facing society. Not only does the industry have a very obvious role to play, which is the carrying out of its business in a responsible way, but it also has an important role to play in developing and implementing programmes and activities which will engage and encourage consumers to adopt a sensible approach to the consumption of the beers, wines and spirits it produces.

The companies represented here today all have a long and established presence in Ireland. As such, we believe we have conducted our business in a responsible and sensitive way and have always taken seriously the importance of our role in society. While we, as individual companies, have benefited from the business we have successfully conducted here, we have, in many different ways, contributed significantly to both the economic development of the country and also to the community as a whole through the very many activities in which we have been, and are, engaged.

We are proud of the strong portfolio of well known and premium brands, most of which have been on the Irish market for many years, and we intend they will remain so. Our focus is very much on the consumer as the primary reason for being in business and we pride ourselves in developing brands that satisfy consumer needs.

The abuse of alcohol products is the focus of attention today and has been a subject of attention and concern for some time. Alcohol products have been in existence for over 3,000 or 4,000 years and the vast majority of people consume products in a sensible and moderate way and enjoy the great pleasure and benefits which they bring. The issue of abuse is not a new phenomenon either. I recently came across a quotation from around 600 BC attributed to the Greek philosopher Plato, expressing views about that very topic. I will not read out his words.

There certainly have been very dramatic and frightening changes in the manner in which some people now abuse alcohol. We have seen a trend where people, particularly young people, drink just to get drunk. We hear of the cost to our health services or the impact on accident and emergency units in hospitals on a regular basis. We hear of and see the effects of serious binge drinking among the young and not so young, and are aware of the level street violence, the drastic effects of drink driving, family violence or the effects of careless sexual activity.

Rightful concerns are expressed also about excessive consumption in a more general sense, which may lead to health difficulties later in life. These are intolerable to us as a society and it is imperative that we all work together to secure a more balanced approach to the consumption of our products by those who engage in such abuse. Those of us present today, representing most of the major suppliers from the drinks industry, are prepared to play a full and proactive part in ensuring a responsible approach by all, young and old, to the consumption of alcohol. We have to ask why we are encountering the sort of abuse we are seeing in society, and I believe that an exploration of some of the factors may also be key to actually trying to find a way of reducing the level of abuse.

We are constantly told that the increase in the level of overall consumption over the past ten years has put us in the top three countries in terms of consumption in Europe. We should not have been terribly surprised that this occurred. After all, our demographics were moving us in that direction because of the population bulge in the age bracket where most consumption occurs. In the past ten years, our population in the 18 to 65 age bracket increased by approximately 28%. There were other factors too. Our tiger economy helped fuel the consumption pattern, with greater affluence particularly among young people. The disappearance of duty free products has changed the consumption pattern, as has the enormous growth in tourism and the increase in the number in the workplace.

Interestingly, if one looks at the levels of consumption in Europe, one finds that there are six or seven other countries, such as Spain, Germany and France, all within a few drinks per year of each other in terms of the overall levels of consumption. Therefore, we are not entirely unusual as a modern society in terms of the consumption of alcohol, as some commentators might suggest, although we are witnessing too many of the side effects of excess.

Why is this? This is a key question and has only recently started to be asked in the debate. I say this because it is too easy to attribute all the ills of society to alcohol abuse and, unfortunately, in adopting this approach we will not get at the underlying factors which are so relevant in trying to find solutions to the difficulties we are experiencing. Undoubtedly, a significant level of abuse is driven by the enormous changes which we have witnessed within our society over the past 20 years or so. We have to consider what might have been described as the traditional controlling influences, such as parents, who continually have to contend with enormous pressures within the family circle, and the huge changes in the levels of influence traditionally held by the likes of the church, the Garda, teachers and authority in general.

We also have to look at the enormous influence that commercial communication, particularly radio and television, has had on us over the past 20 or 30 years. Surely we have to accept that some of the images we see regularly on television screens and the values - or, rather, the lack thereof - presented to us are influencing young people on a regular basis. If one takes this further, one might question the role and influence technology has to play in influencing the thinking of young people in particular. I recently saw a description of a computer game which had liberal doses of physical and sexual violence, all part of the challenge to achieve the ultimate goal. We have to ask what influence this has on a young, impressionable person.

Furthermore, we have rapidly caught up with the trends and styles of other parts of the world in a very short period. This has been largely to our benefit but as a society we have not managed to be sufficiently selective in choosing the influences that impact on us for the better. With the effect of the so-called global village, it probably is naive to suggest that we could have been. Add this to the pressures which people encounter in their everyday lives within the family, the workplace and even getting to and from it, the influence of the consumer society which we have embraced and the constant anxiety for what might be described as instant gratification. The effect is that these can drive people, especially many younger people, up to and beyond the normal boundaries.

Based on this brief resumé, members will have gathered from this that our society is encountering enormous pressures, which suggests more than ever that alcohol abuse is more a symptom of some of the difficulties and pressures which people are facing today rather than a cause. I am not suggesting that this is always the case but it indicates that there is more need than ever before to try to tackle it on those terms. Added to this is the frightening impact of illicit drugs on our society and the dilemma faced by those trying to deal with such problems in differentiating between the two or indeed trying to cope with both.

In making these comments, I am not suggesting that stringent efforts should not be undertaken to deal with our major problems of alcohol abuse, but this effort must be undertaken on a concerted basis and it must be effective and be seen to be so. The noises we see and hear about alcohol abuse pitches different groups against each other. We have the health, legal and competition forces all apparently pulling in different directions. This was reflected in the recently published report of the Commission on Liquor Licensing which emphasised the need for the development of a new alcohol strategy with an overall Government approach, implemented under the Department of the Taoiseach and involving all relevant Departments.

We in the industry would heartily support such an approach. It would be fair to say that there are as many theories about how to tackle abuse as there are variants of drink products. In the first instance, there is a significant need to focus on and highlight the role of personal responsibility in the whole area of abuse as well as parental control directed towards solving the issue of under-age drinking. The industry is glad to see that the need to direct attention at the area of personal responsibility has been emphasised to a increasing extent in recent times. In this area, our belief is that there is particular scope to explore innovative and targeted educational approaches. We recognise that they can only form part of an overall approach and will not necessarily solve the problems of today. They will help, but most importantly they will set down the groundwork for the years ahead.

We have concerns that some of the proposals will not really get at the root of the problem but are more about being seen to be doing something. One theory regularly put forward is that availability of alcohol products should be reduced by pushing prices upwards through tax - mainly excise duty on beers, wines and spirits. This is based on the theory that the more alcohol which is drunk overall, the more problems there will be. Control total volume by price - it is argued - and there will be fewer problems of highly excessive drinking. However, we must bear in mind that we already have one of the highest tax regimes in Europe on beer, wine and spirits and, as an industry, we are already seeing the graph for total consumption move in the opposite direction as demographics and the individual economic pressures are beginning to kick in.

We also hear that the advertising and promotion of alcohol products has had a huge bearing on the increases in consumption, particularly among young people. We hear of the enormous amounts of money spent on advertising and sponsorship and, as a consequence, this is put forward as a reason for increased consumption and abuse. Our evidence is that the effect of advertising and promotion on overall consumption cannot be easily quantified because most of it is brand advertising and competitive by nature. Advertising or promotion generally involves one company competing against another for a market and for every winner there is also a loser. It certainly tries to make a consumer change his or her behaviour very slightly by just buying a different brand. There is strong evidence to substantiate this view. Advertising and promotion in Ireland are also highly regulated.

I assure members that the industry takes its social responsibilities seriously with regard to the consumption of alcohol and wants to play a full and active part in trying to deal with the issue. The industry is a highly regulated one and all of us involved must on the one hand abide by the laws under which we operate, and on the other if we do not, then the law must be effectively enforced. Apart from dealing with this problem on a concerted industry basis, individual companies too have their own corporate social responsibility programmes which focus on this key area. It is fair to say that all companies, for example, have their own comprehensive codes of practice dealing with how they market and promote their products. I know that within companies there are processes in place aimed at ensuring that products and the marketing approaches used do not encourage abuse. Many also either have programmes in place or in development aimed at discouraging abuse.

I must state quite emphatically that companies do not in any way target those who are under the legal drinking age through their marketing efforts. We recognise that young people can be exposed to these. This is the case with all forms of marketing communications, but the codes fully recognise this and insist that the images and activities should in no way encourage young people to consume or abuse their products. Overall, the industry has to play a proactive role in this whole area. This approach has been in place for many years and the intent is that it will do so in a more intensive way in the future. Interestingly, in the early 1980s the industry was heavily involved in developing a self-regulatory approach to advertising and promotion which in broad terms has served us well since then. In the late 1980s the drinks industry group established a social aspects of alcohol committee which developed and implemented programmes aimed at encouraging a more sensible approach to alcohol consumption. For example, it implemented a range of advertising campaigns aimed at drink driving. In addition, it was involved in the development of an educational video aimed particularly at young people, which highlighted the dangers of drinking and driving. It developed and implemented, in conjunction with the Department of Health and CERT, a responsible server of alcohol training programme. This has now been developed further and is being rolled out across the retail trade.

More recently, it accepted there were some shortcomings in the way the self-regulatory process surrounding alcohol advertising was applied. For example, an advertisement which might be in breach of the code of the Advertising Standards Authority of Ireland, ASAI, could have appeared for a period pending receipt of a complaint and its consideration and judgment by that body's complaints committee. In other words, the damage an advertisement might be perceived to be doing will be well and truly done while that process was in train. I am glad to say that, through the Association of Advertisers in Ireland and the Institute of Advertising Practitioners in Ireland, a new organisation called Central Copy Clearance Ireland, CCCI, has been established to vet all advertising materials prior to publication. This works with advertisers and their agents from concept stage through to finished product to ensure, as much as is feasible, that an advertisement complies with the ASAI code. All of the drinks companies have agreed to participate and fund this new organisation. Most importantly, all of the media owners - that is radio, television, cinema, posters and print media - have agreed not to accept an advertisement unless it has received the stamp of approval from Central Copy Clearance Ireland. This unique approach will go a long way towards reducing the incidence of complaints or concern about the content of alcohol advertisements in the future. The facility to complain to the ASAI still remains.

In the past two years, it became increasingly obvious to us in the industry that because of the increased level of abuse which we are seeing in our society, there was a need to establish a dedicated and independent resource to deal with these issues in a more intensive way. Consequently, the industry took the initiative in establishing the new social responsibility organisation, MEAS, which came into being last November. Although funded by the industry, it was agreed that this would operate most effectively at arm's length and I know that its chief executive,Fionnuala Sheehan, will amplify this most readily when she addresses the committee.

On behalf of the industry, we appreciate the opportunity to discuss this issue with members today. We trust that following this meeting they will conclude that we do approach our business in a highly responsible way and that we are anxious to work with all parties in trying to deal with this critical issue facing society today.

Ms Fionnuala Sheehan

I have prepared a submission which has been circulated. I do not plan to go through it verbatim, but I will highlight the salient points. I thank the committee for the opportunity to address members on the most important issue of alcohol and young people. Before I get into my submission, I will give members some of my background, which is broad based - I have worked in the civil, public and private sectors. For the past nine years, before joining MEAS, I worked as deputy registrar at NUI Limerick, where I had particular responsibility for student affairs. It was in my role at the university that I got involved in the issue of alcohol and developed and interest in it. I was convenor and chair of the working group that produced a document with which I think members are familiar, A Framework for a College Alcohol Policy, facilitated by the Department of Health and Children. I have prepared a document which will introduce members briefly to MEAS and go through its role, its aims and its specific initiatives to address alcohol consumption in young people.

MEAS is the working title of the organisation I represent. I am sure members are familiar with the word, which is the Irish word for respect. This encapsulates a core value of the organisation, that alcohol must be respected and that when we consume it, we must respect ourselves and respect others. MEAS was established in August 2002 by the principal sectoral stakeholders within the industry. The member companies of MEAS represent the full spectrum from distributors, producers and marketers to those involved in trade organisations. That is a particular strength of MEAS.

Against a backdrop of unprecedented economic and social change in this country in the recent past, the implications of which are not yet fully understood, there is evidence of patterns of alcohol consumption about which MEAS and, I believe, all present here share concern. Of particular concern is the growth in binge drinking and a culture of drinking to get drunk among young people. There is also the increasing consumption of alcohol among minors, much of which occurs in unsupervised settings. I acknowledge that there is widespread concern about drinks marketing and communication in Ireland, particularly regarding young people, and I will refer to this issue later. A final area of concern is what has been the cultural acceptance in Ireland of drink driving, although that appears now to be a greater issue among those in the older age bracket.

What is the role of MEAS? Its work has an internal, drinks industry focus on the one hand and a complementary Government and external agency focus on the other. This reflects our mission, which is to promote and support social responsibility within the drinks industry and, in co-operation with Government and other appropriate bodies, to promote the sensible consumption of alcohol. Both of these are intended to reduce alcohol abuse and related harm. Corporate social responsibility is not a new phenomenon. Today it is perhaps most evident in the area of environmental protection. I am satisfied that in establishing and supporting MEAS, its member companies have explicitly signed up to the belief that they have social obligations to the entire community as well as to customers. I have attached at appendix 1 the vision, mission and values statement of MEAS. MEAS will promote the highest ethical standards within the drinks industry; it will not condone any misuse or abuse of alcohol; and it will support and promote industry social responsibility through the initiatives and actions I will outline in a moment.

Three areas have been identified by MEAS in the context of its strategic plan and its action goals for 2003 and beyond - under-age drinking, the culture of drinking to get drunk and drink driving. MEAS does not see itself - and it is fully supported by its member companies in this - as taking on social responsibilities for the industry. It has been agreed that the individual member companies will continue to develop and expand the social responsibility initiatives they have under way and will do them in concert with and in support of what MEAS is doing at a more global, cross-industry and, it is to be hoped, cross-national level.

MEAS's work will be research-led and targeted. I would like to give members a flavour of the nine initiatives which we have identified and which are under way, some well under way, at present, in the context of a rigorous and comprehensive statutory and self-regulatory framework. MEAS has taken responsibility for the administration of the drinks industry's self-regulatory code, which is concerned with the individual alcoholic beverage and the way it is promoted, packaged and served. It is in the process of reviewing and strengthening that code, in consultation with the industry and other appropriate bodies, to make it as rigorous as possible and relevant to the changing norms and patterns of Irish society. Particular focus is being given to products appealing to young people. I foresee incorporation into the code of the following: relevant house rules being finalised by the trade organisations in consultation with the Garda - members should be familiar with those; and a linkage with the Framework for a College Alcohol Policy document. The revised code and the copy clearance company initiative mentioned by Mr. Barry, which is detailed in appendix 2, should be pillars on which a more effective and rigorous industry self-regulatory system will rest. It will sit within the broader regulatory framework which has both statutory and self-regulatory elements to it.

Industry sponsorship has attracted considerable attention in recent times. I do not advocate a banning of such sponsorship, but I feel it must always be responsible and appropriate. I have serious concerns, however, about the apparent dependence of clubs and societies around the country on industry sponsorship. I would like to see the industry fund a programme to train coaches and sporting mentors of young people in the communication of responsible alcohol consumption messages to the minors who hold them in high esteem.

A second initiative that is under way is the responsible serving and trading of alcohol. Work has been going on on the responsible serving of alcohol programme for some time. Assistance is being given by CERT as co-ordinator and guarantor of quality. The programme is being rolled out more fully to clubs, pubs and others in the hospitality industry. It has been agreed with CERT that the RSA will be incorporated into new hospitality programmes and existing programmes when they come up for review. This will ensure fuller delivery into the future. A recent development in the off-licence trade is the responsible trading in the community programme, which is available to help those in off-licences to be more responsible traders in the community.

Work was done on the designated driver programme in 2001 by the drinks industry group, but MEAS plans to expand that later this year in concert with and complementary to initiatives being taken by the Garda and the National Safety Council. It will include additional features such as the provision of non-alcoholic beverages to designated drivers.

A fourth initiative which has commenced, but which will be rolled out more fully this year and beyond, seeks to engage young people, especially those in positions of leadership, in the debate on alcohol. This is very important. MEAS has supported the Union of Students in Ireland in its delivery in April of this year to its student peers of the first phase of the Respect Alcohol, Respect Yourself messages on the risks they take when they drink excessively. Members can see in their packs some of the posters that were distributed throughout the country in April. Blunt wording warns of accidental injury, short and long-term health problems, violence, anti-social behaviour or becoming a victim of crime. A fifth initiative is the identification of messages, media and credible sources to communicate with minors on alcohol abuse. To the best of my knowledge, this is the first such exercise conducted in Ireland. The research will commence shortly and we are hoping to have some results later in the year.

A sixth initiative supports parental responsibility in the context of universal parenting. It is our belief, and it is acknowledged in most quarters, that parents have the greatest influence over the drinking habits of their children beginning long before the child uses alcohol. We hope to have a resource available for parents soon and we will be working in partnership with relevant groups to develop and locate this initiative within any broader universal parenting initiative that may emerge.

Our seventh initiative deals with the provision of information for the customer to support sensible drinking in the context of a public information campaign and I am discussing this issue with the industry. It involves the incorporation of responsibility messages on brand packaging and advertising media as well as the provision of alcohol unit information on beverage containers. For such an initiative to have value it must be located within a broader, Government-supported public information campaign on sensible drinking guidelines and drinking behaviour. There is no point having unit information on bottles unless there is a campaign to communicate its meaning in the context of safe drinking levels.

The eighth point states that MEAS believes that sensible drinking can fit into a strategy for healthy living generally and must be viewed within an overall strategy that views the individual as being responsible for his or her health and not only drinking behaviour. There is a danger in looking at issues in isolation and there is a need for a broader context. We require a new form of active partnership between the individual, the community in which he or she lives, studies or works, the range of Government Departments which should be involved in a joint way and the drinks industry. This approach is urgently needed if real solutions are to be found.

MEAS is looking at the area of best practice for active partnerships. Drawing from best practice in similar cultural settings, it is our intention to promote use of successful partnership models such as the Manchester City Centre Safe initiative, which I have researched and which is very promising. That initiative involves a clearly articulated medium-term strategic plan for delivery. A holistic, integrated approach has been adopted and it is supported by active partnerships involving the drinks industry, the police, the transport providers and the media. An interesting feature is the incorporation of the social norms approach to modify behaviour.

The need for an approach that balances personal responsibility, which is extremely important, industry self-regulation, Government regulation and enforcement is critical. Those three areas must complement each other if we are to have an environment conducive to the sensible drinking of alcohol.

I have outlined a number of initiatives with which MEAS is involved and where it will support the industry. I have included in the document ideas on areas that fall within the remit of Government. The first few relate to greater enforcement of existing laws. I will not go into these areas in detail but, broadly, they deal with: the need for additional enforcement; the condemnation of promotions; the need for the introduction of an identity card, such as the public services card, and I have attached a submission to the Reach unit on that front; improved caring facilities in child care and a suggestion on related incentives; life skills in third level to continue the work done at primary and second level on the SPHE front; better data and research to inform the measures to be undertaken to evaluate their effectiveness and any deficiencies; and the establishment of a representative body to develop a coherent national policy for alcohol that is representative of all stakeholders.

The solutions identified to tackle our problems must be informed by proper analysis of our changed society and supported by solid, reliable data. They must be part of a strategy for healthy living generally, involving a comprehensive policy mix, and be implemented in an integrated way via active partnerships between all of the bodies and people involved, particularly the individual.

I thank both delegations for their very comprehensive statements. Mr. Barry said that he believes he has conducted his business in a responsible and sensitive manner. Looking over all the presentations we have received, the direct opposite impression has been given to the committee by various sources in the health area, particularly those at the frontline in accident and emergency departments, where they said that self-regulation means no regulation. The industry has been accused of breaking its own code of practice in advertising on numerous occasions. It has been accused of placement in colleges by product or people and encouraging young people to drink excessively. Given the presentation today and the recognition that there is a major problem, does Mr. Barry think legislation is a necessary function regarding advertising? The survey carried out by the Department of Health and Children claims that there is a relationship between increased consumption and advertising but that is not admitted in the statement from Mr. Barry. There are contradictory statements that detail the influence and power of television in one part and then state later that advertising is one company trying to outdo another. The survey carried out by the Department of Health and Children states conclusively that advertising is a major influence.

Mr. Barry

I have reflected on the issues outlined in different ways in my presentation. The problems we see regularly in accident and emergency units and with street violence are driven by individuals. The companies do not encourage such a situation and our concern is that the focus on issues like advertising or greater regulation will miss the underlying problems and will not get at the problems that drive people to engage in such behaviour.

In broad terms, the industry has conducted its business in a responsible way. Our society has changed dramatically in many different ways. Communications have changed and I mentioned the influence of television and radio. They have influenced commercial communication, not just about alcohol but across society. The styles and methods used have varied to keep up with the society in which we live. Self-regulation has worked but we must remember that codes are about interpretation and there has been slippage in them because different people interpret things in different ways. When complaints have been upheld by the ASAI, the industry has responded by withdrawing those advertisements immediately. We did recognise, and I will say it again, that there is a gap in that process and we have moved to fill that gap. There is a great deal of research which suggests that advertising does not lead people to consume or abuse alcohol. It is very much about brand identity and awareness. That is where it is directed. There have been studies done in that regard.

We recognise that codes must be implemented. We do not believe that legislation in this area would be any more effective than the codes that are already in place. Everybody must abide by those codes. I know that within my own company, for example, we have our own international code that has been further developed in recent times and it is being intensively driven throughout our organisation on a global basis and within Ireland to make people who are producing advertisements more aware of the code and of their responsibilities in this area. Self-regulation has been proven to work. Even if one looks at some of the figures regarding the ASAI, for example, it received 1,200 complaints in 2002, and of those 54 related to alcohol. Alcohol ranked about seventh in terms of categories of complaints.

One of the dilemmas for us as a society is looking at ways of dealing with a much wider problem, and as an industry we are concerned that we will miss the kernel of the problem and will not get at the root of the problem, which we all have to tackle.

I thank both speakers for their presentations. I am not one of those people who believe that the drinks industry is responsible for all the ills of society and I do not blame it for making that case very strongly. It is true to say that alcohol has been around for a very long time, since the Garden of Eden I believe. It has also been abused down through the ages and the falls of many civilisations have been associated with abuse of alcohol. We are inclined at times to have a knee-jerk reaction and to lash out at a certain source, particularly when there are changes happening in society that we do not thoroughly understand.

It is right to say that we must look at what is different now. What is different is that younger people are drinking more and the purpose of their drinking is totally different from the kind of drinking that went on in the past. The purpose is to get drunk immediately. It is now regarded as not just cool to drink - that has always been a sort of right of passage - but to be mindlessly, vomiting drunk. That is considered cool for a certain age group.

What is different is the violence that is associated with drink. The notion of the harmless drunk has disappeared altogether. They are certainly more threatening than threatened——

What is the Deputy's point?

I am coming to it. Having said all that, the industry is not without blame and that blame lies entirely in the area of advertising. It is nonsense that the industry's advertising is only about brand advertising. It is brand advertising and companies want to guard their own bit of the cake, but their collective advertising ensures a bigger and bigger cake every year. Nothing that our witnesses will say will dissuade me of the reality that advertising encourages people to drink.

I do not blame the industry for trying to sell more drink but I do blame it for targeting young people. There is no doubt that the ASAI's guidelines are flouted. They are not supposed to target young people yet virtually all drinks advertisements feature younger people. All of them associate social, sexual or sporting success with the presence of drink. There is no doubt that almost every single advertisement does that and self-regulation has totally failed. Would our witnesses not agree it is time to look at a total ban on the advertising of alcohol as self-regulation has failed to protect young people?

I welcome the work of MEAS and the recognition that there is a need for that kind of organisation. I would not question the bona fides of the kind of research work that has been done and that is absolutely essential if we are to get a sensible response to the problem of drinking rather than just a knee-jerk reaction. Inevitably, however, we must be cynical when we go into the MEAS website and find links to the Guinness website, which encourages us to drink more. Do our guests not accept that, inevitably, people will question their bona fides and feel that this is just way to get around further regulation or bans on advertising of alcohol?

I thank our witnesses for their presentation. Would it not have been better for them to give the full picture in their presentation, including the fact that over the past ten years there has been a 41% increase in alcohol consumption? That is presumably reflected in profits. Is it not important too to note that pure alcohol consumption per person is now 11 litres per year in Ireland compared to the European average of 9.1 litres? Do they not think they should have explained to us why, even though they participated in the very important report of the strategic task force on alcohol, they essentially refused to endorse its findings and produced their own minority report within it? Do they not think they need to deal with that? Do they not need to acknowledge the fact that with such a high level of alcohol consumption, alcohol abuse has increased as part of the picture? I get the impression that they continually try to separate the two, as if alcohol abuse had nothing to do with the increased level of alcohol consumption. I do not see how they can make that argument stand up and it is important to pinpoint this.

Do they not think that they should be considering what works in terms of dealing with alcohol abuse instead of what they would like to think works? What works does interfere with overall levels of consumption, and these measures are clearly outlined in the strategic task force report. MEAS and Mr. Barry have concentrated to a significant degree on education, yet we know quite clearly from the extensive research that education is pretty ineffectual and that the key things that actually work are availability controls and dealing with drink driving. However, these are areas that the drinks industry feels should not be dealt with in its minority report.

The things that work are the things that industry representatives appear to reject. I also ask about advertising. The report clearly indicates that self-regulation or even content regulation does not work but that banning advertising does work. Whatever regulatory arrangements the industry has as regards advertising, the only thing the public see is a continual, ongoing and increasing bombardment of images and messages that young people should drink more and that if they do, they will be better sportsmen, able to pull the girls and will be all-round better human beings. That is what is being put out on an increasing level.

I also ask about the comment that companies in the industry do not in any way target those who are under the legal drinking age through their marketing efforts. They should talk to us about this whole targeting now not just through marketing but through the actual production of products that are clearly designed to trap very young people into the habit of drinking. Products with a high sugar content are deliberately designed for this purpose. We have dealt with alcopops but there is a deliberate attempt to ensure that people start to drink young. I did not expect the delegation to say these things. The idea behind MEAS - to set up an organisation to promote responsible behaviour in regard to alcohol - is interesting but one has to recognise that it is limited because of the arrangement that exists. The link between it and the industry, and the concentration on education and research, is flim-flam when one looks at the information already available in a substantial report from the strategic task force. The idea that the delegation should argue, for example, against reducing the blood alcohol level in drivers is hard to stomach when one looks at what happens in our community in terms of health and danger on the roads.

I must apologise. I have another meeting to attend.

Deputy Moloney took the Chair.

I welcome the delegation and thank its members for their presentation. I would like to come back to some of the apparent contradictions in Mr. Barry's presentation. He suggested that the increase in alcohol consumption was due to the increased affluence in our society in recent years. That is certainly the case. However, would he not agree that this implies a recognition that price plays a role? If people have more money they will consume more alcohol, and therefore, if we increase taxes on alcohol it will be more expensive and consumption would fall. In his presentation, he says that he would not welcome extra taxation. I see that as a contradiction. Could he comment on that?

He also says that the images and values presented on our TV screens are influencing young people. Other speakers referred to this. Surely, therefore, he accepts that advertising is there to show that alcohol is cool and that greater consumption is not only acceptable but also advisable. Would he have the courage to admit to the committee that the idea that advertising is only about brand awareness and not about encouraging consumption is not the case? Advertising exists to try and increase consumption of the product. It is not just about brand awareness.

I wish to return to the question of indirect advertising. From Mr. Barry's point of view, does indirect advertising occur when a politician brings a visiting Head of State to a pub and puts a pint of Guinness in his or her hand? Is this effective advertising from the delegation's point of view? It is unacceptable that we tell young people to consume less alcohol while leading politicians go into pubs and do their very best to glamorise alcohol consumption.

On the issue of sponsorship, to what extent has the delegation sponsored political parties by giving financial donations or by supplying drinks at conferences and so on?

Mr. Barry

Deputy McManus referred to the strategic task force and it is appropriate that I should speak of it because I was a member of the force. While we participated in the task force we felt that it was skewed and was not going to achieve a balanced output. We were concerned about a few areas. The point I made consistently there was that we had to reflect on the remit of the task force set by the Minister, namely, to identify effective measures for dealing with alcohol-related harm. I presented papers to the task force which took issue with a number of its recommendations but, given that I was a minority of one, it was difficult to convince some of the other people.

Drink driving, for example, came up for discussion. We did not suggest that the full force of the law should not be applied or that efforts should not be made to deal with the issue of drink driving. We certainly would not suggest that should be the case. We pointed out that there was a need for effective measures and we believed firmly that reducing the blood alcohol consumption level was not effective because we are not enforcing the law that exists. I am glad to hear the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government talking about greater enforcement and a form of enforcement which will help the situation. That was the difficulty we had with the task force.

We also had difficulty with regard to some of the proposed measures. Deputies Mitchell and McManus have referred to different points regarding advertising and a possible ban on advertising. The adviser to the task force suggested that was the least effective measure. There are countries where advertising is banned yet there are high levels of abuse. It is a scapegoat. Dealing with the issue in that fashion will not be effective. We live in a global society and we are exposed to images from outside the country, over which we have no control.

Self-regulation is a misnomer because our industry does not regulate advertising. The advertising industry does that. There are a number of independent people on the ASAI complaints committee so the industry is quite removed from the self-regulatory process. Similarly, we fund central copy clearance but we are not directly involved. The chairman of that body is Ms Mary Lambkin, professor of marketing at NUI Dublin. We set up that body and stepped back from it, even though we are providing funding to make it work.

It is true that consumption has increased. I mentioned in my introductory remarks that there are various factors driving that consumption, including demographics. They are working their way through and consumption is coming down. Focusing on consumption will not deal with the issue of abuse. It is important that we look for effective measures to deal with abuse and we want to participate in those. We do not target young people but they are exposed to advertising. They are exposed also to car advertising which is very impressive and stylish but they do not jump into a car and drive away in the morning, so advertising has a limited role. The images presented on television do have significant influence. If the codes work effectively they will deal with this issue. Legislation is not the route to take on this. We already have a very high level of taxation. Our belief is that the level of overall consumption is going to come down because of demographic factors, the level of affluence in society and the changes that are occurring in society. Our feeling on the area of abuse is we should encourage people to have alcohol as part of a normal balanced lifestyle - alcohol is reasonable and brings enjoyment to people - and discourage its abuse.

With regard to politicians coming into pubs, I do not bring those politicians into pubs. It happens that pubs are part of our lifestyle. They served us extremely well over many years and it is an acceptable form of relaxation and entertainment.

What about donations?

Mr. Barry

My company has a global policy which precludes political donations. We do not make donations to political parties anywhere. In regard to providing alcohol products for receptions, if a reception has a particular value in promoting the country we may consider it. We certainly do not engage in political donations.

Does Mr. Barry's company not contribute to the Conservative Party in Britain? When did this policy come in?

Mr. Barry

That policy has been in existence for many years. One of the principles of that policy is that we operate in some strange parts of the world where political donations might present us with serious difficulties.

I just want to point out that the report shows that advertising has some effect. What it does not effect is advertising labels warning people of the content of alcohol on bottles. It is ludicrous to put forward the proposition that advertising has no effect. If that is true, then the drinks industry is wasting hundreds of millions of euro.

I welcome the group. When the vintners were here, there was this spin——

There is a vote in the House. Could Deputy Cowley please repeat his question after the vote is taken?

The joint committee suspended at 10.40 a.m. and resumed at 11.00 a.m.

We had the vintners in, and they were trying to break the link between consumption and the problems of alcohol. They were saying it is about abuse and not consumption, but when one considers that our consumption has gone up by 41%, that soon we will soon be possibly the biggest alcohol consumer in Europe, and that in hospital casualty departments one of four people attending is there because of alcohol-related incidents, it is a major problem. I agree the vintners are not entirely to blame, but they are part of the problem and also part of the solution. I recognise the vintners have been proactive, but I put it to them that much more needs to be done. Would they be prepared to support, as something that would be very helpful, saving lives by reducing the permissible blood alcohol content for drivers from 80 to 50 milligrams? At 80 milligrams, a motor car collision is six times more likely. When I put this to Mr. TadghO'Sullivan, he agreed.

I understand that section 17 of the Intoxicating Liquor Act 2000 says that every outlet selling drink, whether an on-licence or off-licence, should have some type of labelling giving the origin of each drink. I know that with foot and mouth disease, it was extremely important that we could trace product, but in the case of someone selling drink to under-age people, would the vintners agree that, for example, a bar code could be attached to the product at source? That would be very much in the vintners' own bailiwick, and would make it possible for the person selling or passing on drink to an under-age person to be traced. That would certainly be one way of helping. I wonder what the views of the vintners would be on that matter, as it would have to be organised by them.

I support the vintners' stand on ID cards in relation to under-age drinking. If one buys a loaf of bread in a supermarket, it can be traced back, with the price on the bill, so surely a similar process could be applied when selling alcohol to trace its origin. The person attempting to buy drink could be identified with the ID card.

How much is spent on advertising alcohol? If the vintners say such advertising does not work, why is so much spent on it? The banning of cigarette advertising has been very effective, so how can the vintners say that banning alcohol advertising would not be effective?

There is also the question of passive and indirect drink advertising. How can the vintners reconcile the fact that if a brand is being promoted with a particular person buying that product, and consumption is increasing, that advertising does not work? I would like to hear the vintners' views on that matter, and whether they think alcohol differs from cigarettes in suggesting that the banning of drink advertising would not work. If it works for one it works for the other, so let us be straightforward.

In relation to drink driving, I again urge the vintners to support a reduction in the maximum blood alcohol level to 50 milligrams, which would be a much safer option for the vintners' customers.

I thank the delegation for attending. There is no doubt that advertising plays a part in the consumption of alcohol. Whether it has a role to play in excessive consumption by under-age people is open to debate. I would like more factual information from each of the companies represented here to help us draw up our report on the problems related to under-age alcohol consumption. I would be interested in figures in relation to the amount spent by each company on advertising in the last available year, which I presume is 2002, compared with, for example, ten years ago. I would also like to hear the comments of each company in relation to the well-known promotions that occur in most towns and cities which have third level institutions and which allow one to buy one drink and get another free. What is the opinion of each company in relation to these promotions? I will not name the particular beverages that spring to mind, but certainly they are widely used, and the companies definitely play a role in promoting those particular beverages. Do the companies condone or condemn such promotions? Will they stop them?

While I welcome the establishment of MEAS, I am somewhat sceptical about the statement that MEAS is a separate operational independent company with no commercial purpose. I would like to believe that, but as I think Deputy McManus said, the MEAS website has links to alcohol companies, and, obviously, since MEAS is funded by alcohol companies, it requires a slight leap of faith to believe it is totally independent, though it would be nice if it were.

Answers to those questions would be of help to us.

Ms Sheehan

In relation to MEAS, I agree with Deputy Mitchell and her perception of cynicism and scepticism in relation to the introduction of a company like MEAS at this time in Ireland, when we are giving consideration to this serious problem of alcohol abuse. I strongly hold the view that commercial success and corporate social responsibility are not necessarily mutually exclusive goals. In relation to that, it can scarcely serve the purpose of an industry like the drinks industry if there are growing problems in relation to drunken and disorderly behaviour, for example, on our streets. That impacts on society and on the images of the drinks companies. In signing up to MEAS and its mission and value statement, these companies signed up to the belief that they have obligations to the community in general as well as to their individual customers. In terms of commercial success the member companies of MEAS may have to endure some short-term pain which will be to their benefit in the medium term. I believe the companies will be open and willing to look at that.

MEAS can perform an effective role. It is a dedicated resource that was not available previously. It can form an effective bridge between the industry, the Government and other agencies in addressing alcohol abuse and related issues. It is operationally independent. I have a strategy agreed with the board which I will proceed to roll out. I see no issue with the incorporation on our website of linkages to our member companies. These are member companies of MEAS and we are being up front about that. I do not see any conflict or issue on that front.

To be clear, MEAS is there, as I said at the outset, to support the member companies in their delivery of their social responsibility and obligations. MEAS is not there to do it for the companies. It will assist them in doing that themselves. In doing so, it will provide a more effective bridge to Government and other agencies than has existed in the past.

I wish to comment on a point that was raised earlier on the focus in my presentation on education and the comment that it has proven to be a very ineffective measure. We need to look at education under a couple of different headings. There is the issue of information per se related to awareness raising. Another issue is the role it can play in the context of social development and development of the individual, and we know what is happening in schools on the social, personal and health education front. I drew attention, though very briefly, to my concern about the deficit of that type of development, and support for it in third level institutions. I say that knowing that we are addressing the issue of young people and alcohol. In the past 15 years, the number participating in higher education has grown threefold and those young people are concentrated in a number of our key towns and cities.

The final area that comes under the broad heading of education is training. I addressed the advancement of initiatives involving the training of those who serve alcohol or who are involved in the trading of alcohol. There have been significant moves forward on that front. I referred to the initiatives that MEAS is taking specifically in relation to parents. The reason we have done so is because in reviewing the research and discussing this issue with people in the trade and with the parents of young people, there is clearly a need to address this area. There is a gap there at present. MEAS sees itself as a prompt and we do not see ourselves taking on this role. There are other agencies in a far better position to do this. We can work initially to raise awareness on these fronts and help parents who are looking for assistance. We can work in partnership with others to support that initiative more fully as it moves forward.

One of the difficulties I have with the rating given to the various measures in the strategic task force on alcohol is that it does not say whether individually or in combination these particular measures proved to be effective or otherwise.

I wish to return to the question that was raised in relation to a reduction in the blood alcohol level. I have no problem with the reduction in the blood alcohol level, but I reviewed a report that came into my hands just yesterday by the Traffic Injury Research Foundation, a national, independent, charitable road safety institute in Canada, which undertook detailed research on whether Canada should lower the blood alcohol limit in its criminal code from 80 to 50 milligrams. The report was published in May 2002. Bear in mind that Canada is somewhat unique internationally in that all its provinces except Quebec have a lower blood alcohol limit of 50 milligrams, which authorises the police to issue 12 to 24 hour suspensions to drivers with a blood alcohol level above the 50 milligram limit. The findings are very interesting. The report looks at evaluations of change in the blood alcohol limit in the United States, Sweden and Australia. It says, however, that a critical review of these studies reveals that many are limited by weak research designs and a number of issues vis-à-vis methodology. In conclusion it states:

The review of the evaluation literature fails to provide strong, consistent and unqualified support for lowering the blood alcohol limit. At best the results are mixed and the methodological weaknesses in the studies raised questions about the robustness and veracity of the evidence.

One of the problems was that it was not clear in the various jurisdictions that were looked at whether the lowering of the blood alcohol limit was effective on its own or whether a combination of other initiatives taken in these jurisdictions at the same time contributed to the effectiveness of the lowering. I just mention that as an aside because I have considered this question in looking at the document and at what combinations of measures have proved to be effective and to what extent cultural and social issues are brought to bear here.

A person with a blood alcohol level of 80 milligrams is six times more likely to have a collision. It is a physiological fact that alcohol is a depressant. It depresses the nervous system so that responses are slower. I know that Ms Sheehan is very much in favour of helping her clients but would she not agree that if there is six times less chance of a collision then she should be anxious to see a reduction to a legal limit of 50 milligrams?

Ms Sheehan

Just to be clear, I said at the outset that I have no difficulty with a reduction in the blood alcohol limit——

Would Ms Sheehan support it?

Ms Sheehan

The point I made was that I have a little bit of difficulty in that it is not clear as to the combination in which measures have proved to be most effective and so on.

If the there is six times the chance of a collision and there is much more chance of an accident——

Ms Sheehan

I agree absolutely that——

I know what Ms Sheehan's organisation is doing is very useful, so would she not add that to her list of good things to do for her clients?

Ms Sheehan

I could do so, yes. Let us be clear that I do not have a problem with that.

I think we all recognise that alcohol is a mood altering drug. Even one milligram of alcohol will cause some degree of mood altering. I find it fascinating that MEAS is taking up the time of the committee to effectively defend the current limit of blood alcohol. I agree entirely with Deputy Cowley that if the level comes downs to 50, 30 or 20 milligrams, it is going to be much safer. The purpose of this meeting is to hear the views of the alcohol manufacturers and I have asked some pertinent questions and would like some replies, if our witnesses would not mind.

Ms Sheehan

I am not defending the present levels at all. I drew attention to the problem I have with trying to see what measures in what combination are effective. Let us be clear on that. I do not have an issue at all with a reduction. In fact, to be absolutely clear, my view is that people should not drink when they are driving, end of story.

I ask the group to respond to specific questions raised by Deputy Devins, particularly regarding the advertising figures for each company compared with ten years ago.

My questions were not answered either.

We shall come back to the Deputy. I ask our guests to hone in on the specific questions raised as we do not have much time left.

Mr. Barry

Certainly, Chairman. I know I have done a lot of talking and it is reasonable that some of my colleagues should——

We want to come back afterwards to try to see the benefit of this meeting and clearly, when we sit down afterwards and work out how many questions were asked we will have some difficulties with that, so we should spend the next 20 minutes specifically answering questions.

Mr. Barry

In relation to advertising I am afraid I cannot detail individual spending by companies. If one considers the total amount spent on alcohol advertising by the industry in the past 12 months, it amounts to something of the order of €35 million. There is no doubt it has increased. I do not have specific figures but if one looks at some of the figures available for advertising on television and radio where most of the spend occurs, between 1991 and 2001 the amount more or less doubled. There is no doubt about that.

I have not said advertising is not effective. If it was not effective, then people in the companies would not be doing their jobs. Of course it is effective, but the point we are making is that it is effective in promoting individual brands to people who have already decided to consume products. That is the purpose of advertising. As I said, the amount spent has approximately doubled in that period.

Perhaps we could get a written submission from our guests answering the specific question rather than just speculating today.

The Liquor Licensing Act 2000 is not enforceable because there is a difficulty putting labelling on products. With modern technology, one can buy a loaf of bread which is identifiable on one's bill. During the foot and mouth crisis, tracing the origin of products was important. If somebody under age got alcohol and if it was possible to trace the transaction back to the person who sold it, one would be on to a winner. As far as I know, it is a legal obligation under section 17 of the Act. It was supposed to be the watchdog clause in the legislation which extended pub opening hours. It was a way to ensure traceability in regard to those who sell alcohol. It would really require a bar code. That is something about which you need to think, otherwise how will it be done?

Mr. Barry

I agree it is on the Statute Book but it was not enacted. I think reference was made by the strategic task force to the fact that there are serious practical difficulties in relation to this. There was also a query in relation to its effectiveness. We all know there are dilemmas in relation to where people purchase alcohol for consumption other than in off-licenses. People who are of age may purchase a product and pass it on to others. The source of a product is difficult to identify. There are practical difficulties because of the sheer volume of product which is distributed and the range of outlets. However, we recognise it is an issue and we are prepared to look at it, but there are practical difficulties.

Mr. Patrick Conway

The objective is to prevent those under age purchasing alcohol. It is one method but in terms of mechanics it is complicated. The identity card could achieve the same aim in a far more practical manner, hence the reason we support that initiative.

Mr. Alf Smiddy

I agree with what Mr. Barry and Mr. Conway have said. The products we sell are labelled in the sense that the supply source is on each brand, although the off-licence, supermarket or pub in which it is sold is not. Practically, it would be virtually impossible to do that. We are certainly keen to look at it but I am not sure if it can be done in a practical way. All the brands we sell are labelled in the sense that the producer is stated on the label as is the alcohol content, the best before date, etc.

The identification card has been spoken about time and again and we would be very supportive of it.

As regards the identification card, a PIN is provided using modern technology. You deal with wholesalers, retailers and others and you visit premises and check taps, etc. Putting a barcode on a product stating in which pub it was sold would provide an invaluable service to the State given the terrible scourge of under-age drinking. Perhaps you could encourage those with whom you deal to include additional information such as the time of sale and so on. If a product was sold to a person who was over age, at least the transaction could be traced back to them and whoever bought the product could be identified as the person responsible for passing it on. Prosecutions could follow more easily. The difficulty is trying to bring prosecutions and traceability. It was possible to do it during the foot and mouth crisis in the case of animals, so let us do it for young people. This issue is costing us so much in terms of absenteeism, suicide and so on. Alcohol has caused so many problems at home and abroad. I suggest it is something our guests could address in a positive way with their vintner colleagues.

I come back to the question I put earlier about sponsorship, support or donations to political parties. I got a reply from Mr. Barry——

Mr. Smiddy

As a company, we do not sponsor or support political parties. That is a policy of our parent company, Scottish & Newcastle, which is based in the UK, and I say that categorically. A question was raised by a member about "buy one, get one free" promotions. I would not condone or support that type of promotion but that is a question more properly directed to the retail rather than the supplier side of the business. We do not engage in that type of activity.

Is Mr. Smiddy clear about that? I am sorry to interrupt but is he saying the specific company does not advocate that policy?

Mr. Smiddy

I do not even know of examples in this country. I have seen it quite extensively in the UK, particularly in the multiple trade, but I have not seen it in this country.

I come from Sligo and I have seen it there and in Dublin. It is very prevalent. The specific brand name impinged on my memory.

Mr. Smiddy

I have not seen it in this country but I have seen it extensively in the UK where the expression the company uses is "buy one, get one free". It is very prevalent, particularly in the multiple trade market in the UK. I have not seen it in this market and, largely, I would not be in favour of it.

Ms Sheehan

I am not sure whether the practice exists but it was brought to my attention as a possibility and I have condemned it quite unequivocally. That is the position of MEAS.

Mr. John Pearson

My company, as a matter of policy, does not make political donations. In relation to advertising history, to the extent we can get historic information I would be very happy to give it to MEAS, which can compile the information on an industry-wide basis, if that would satisfy the Deputy's question.

As regards "buy one, get one free", we do not support that. As a matter of policy we do not accept or promote any promotions which are likely to condone or promote excessive consumption.

As regards traceability, I am not an expert in the field. One of the big questions here is that it is not a matter of the will of industry to provide traceability but the ability of industry to do so. There are two issues here, one of which is technology. The majority of products we distribute have a barcode. Indeed, in the retail trade, supermarkets insist on having a barcode. A barcode tells those who scan a product what it is and where it was produced, but it cannot give information about where it was purchased. That is the current technological difficulty. In relation to the organisational and logistical difficulties, our industry supplies many outlets directly and indirectly through wholesalers and cash and carry merchants. As an industry and as a distributor, we are not in a position to ensure that the final outlet is supplied with a barcode specific to it, even if the technology permitted.

On a point of information, I referred to a barcode, but could a strip be provided? Mr. Pearson's company visits pubs to service and clean their pumps. Could a pub not be given a strip to indicate its name or could a facility be provided whereby additional information such as time of sale could be added? It could be attached to the cash register. This is an area in which the company could be proactive. It is a legal requirement and something extra that could be done as a service to clients and, ultimately, the customer.

Mr. Pearson

I reinforce the point that the problem is not with the willingness of the industry to supply traceability, it is with its ability to do so. There should be ongoing attempts to find ways of aiding traceability.

On a point of order, when I mention political donations I refer also to the supply of drink to political events. For example, when I was Lord Mayor of Dublin I received a free supply of drink from Guinness for which I was very thankful. However, this sort of thing goes on and I am trying to find out to what extent it happens among political parties.

Mr. Barry

The supply of Guinness to the Mansion House is a long-standing tradition. The Guinness is supplied to the Office of the Lord Mayor rather than to a political personality. Indeed, we supply Áras an Uachtaráin as well.

Mr. Kieran Tobin

In terms of political sponsorship, through Irish Distillers we have donated product to the office of the Lord Mayor rather than to a politician or party. The brand was Old Dublin. The Lord Mayor represents Dublin well. Irish Distillers has made political donations to a number of parties over the years, but while I do not have any details with me, I can certainly go through the public record and provide them. As regards sponsorship and the supply of alcohol to party political meetings and golf outings, there has been a modicum of that, though not very much over the years.

I turn to Deputy Devins's question on "buy one, get one free" promotions. Irish Distillers is engaged in the production and sale of spirit brands and in the importation of wine brands, particularly Irish whiskey and new world wines which are geared to more mature, adult drinkers. Our style of promotion involves providing people with samples of spirits, usually mixed. We do not target younger people, nor do we get involved in price promotion, happy hours or anything that would lead to excessive or binge drinking. We do not condone such activity and our parent company, Pernod Ricard, is also very strong in this area.

Mr. Conway

To my knowledge, Heineken Ireland does not make political donations. We might hold receptions at our hospitality suite in Cork to host local events which politicians attend, but that is as far it goes.

To pick up on the question regarding promotions, Heineken Ireland is part of an international company which prides itself on being a responsible producer. The parent company has been proactive in writing a code of practice for all of its companies throughout Europe. Regarding promotions, our code is very rigorous and similar to the one described by Mr. Tobin. There are specific guidelines involved which mean we do not partake in free beer promotions, happy hours or price-offs. The code is strictly communicated to our agencies and to trade associations and our sales representatives are fully briefed. The code is implemented as best we can.

I am delighted to hear those responses. If it were drawn to the attention of Mr. Conway that an outlet was in breach of the code, would Heineken Ireland be prepared to stop supplying its brand?

Mr. Conway

We would be prepared to bring it to the attention of the outlet and to bring pressure to bear to have the promotion withdrawn immediately. That course of action has been very successful. There was a recent instance which reached the media where an irresponsible promotion was run. Through the trade associations, pressure was brought to bear on the outlet and the promotion was withdrawn immediately.

When the delegation communicates to the committee the amount spent on advertising, I ask that the cost of passive or indirect advertising be included.

I ask the delegation to send details regarding donations and advertising as soon as possible.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.35 a.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 22 May 2003.
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