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JOINT COMMITTEE ON HEALTH AND CHILDREN debate -
Thursday, 22 Nov 2007

Health Issues: Discussion with Minister for Health and Children and CEO of HSE.

I welcome the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Mary Harney, the chief executive officer of the Health Service Executive, Professor Brendan Drumm, and their officials to the meeting to discuss important health issues.

I will shortly invite the Minister to make her opening remarks. I will then call on Professor Drumm, after which members may ask questions. Before I do so, I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official, by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I am pleased to be here for my first meeting with the new committee. I last addressed the Joint Committee on Health and Children around Easter and I look forward to engaging with the new committee on many matters of importance in the health area. Health accounts for a quarter of all the money we spend running the country and a third of all public servants work in the health system. It has an enormous impact on all our lives.

I refer to your opening advice to members that they should not comment on persons who are not Members of the Oireachtas and are not in a position to defend themselves. Comments were made yesterday and this morning about Dr. Ann O'Doherty, who is carrying out a review of more than 3,000 mammograms from Portlaoise hospital. Dr. Ann O'Doherty is the most qualified and most eminent breast radiologist in Ireland. She established the breast screening programme in Northern Ireland and was involved in the establishment of the quality assurance programme there. She was a consultant in Northern Ireland for several years before she took up a post in Dublin. She is clinical director of the Merrion unit for breast screening and is a member of the standards setting committee of the Royal College of Radiologists. She and her team reviewed more than 3,000 mammograms. She has reassured more than 3,000 women and has diagnosed nine cases of cancer.

In the first instance, we must ensure that none of the women who have been reassured by Dr. O'Doherty have any need to worry. She is a woman of the highest possible standing in breast radiology and I regret very much that in the course of political dialogue she has been drawn into matters which are more appropriately dealt with by the Minister. She is not in a position to defend herself and we must all be very careful when commenting on this matter. I ask members from all parties to reiterate their confidence in her as an outstanding clinician and as the one most capable of carrying out this review.

When the Health Service Executive appointed Dr. Ann O'Doherty they sought legal advice on the appointment. The representatives of the HSE may deal with that matter later this morning.

Policy is a matter for the Minister and operational issues a matter for the HSE. However, there are many areas where policy and operational issues cannot be easily separated because many operational issues have policy implications and vice versa. However, cancer policy is a good place to start. We have agreed a sea-change and a major step forward. We will no longer be involved in incremental change. We are establishing a cancer control programme to be delivered in four cancer control networks and eight specialist cancer centres around the country. We have appointed Professor Tom Keane to oversee the delivery of that programme on an interim basis over the next two years. He has been seconded from the cancer agency in British Columbia, where a programme like ours was put into operation many years ago. He is eminently qualified. He has my full support and that of the Government in the task that lies ahead of him, which is to implement the agreed programme. We have agreed the programme. There is no question of revisiting the policy decisions which have been set. It is now a matter of getting on with the implementation of the programme.

One in three people will develop invasive cancer. The purpose of implementing the programme is to reassure cancer patients, whether in west Kerry, Dublin 4, Sligo or Donegal that they will have access to the same quality assured service in terms of seeing the right person in the right place and at the right time, and receiving the correct treatment.

Strong international evidence, which includes more than 250 different papers, points to the very significant correlation between volume and quality. This is not an issue of the specialist nature of an individual surgeon as we have outstanding surgeons working in places where there is a small volume of activity. It is an issue of ensuring that excellent surgeons work as part of a team of specialists including, surgical specialists, radiologists, pathologists and medical oncologists to deliver multidisciplinary care in areas with a high volume of activity.

There is an onus on all of us to support Professor Keane. There is an onus on clinicians to provide clinical leadership and I have no doubt this will be forthcoming in abundance because most of the oncologists with whom I have had an opportunity to speak are enthusiastic about the programme. There is also an onus on politicians to provide political leadership. In particular, there is an onus on the Minister for Health and Children to stand by the right decision as far as quality is concerned. We cannot allow, as we may have done in the past, institutional, professional or political factors to come before quality and patient care. I appeal to everybody to support the programme. While I believe people from all parties are supportive of the programme, as a well known commentator said, it is support for the programme with a very large "BUT". I hope we can remove this and can reassure people we have the capacity in Ireland to work together and to do what has been done in many other countries during the past number of years.

We are not starting from a greenfield site. We have made major changes in cancer care in Ireland during the past number of years. We have invested more than €1 billion in the provision of cancer services between 1996 and 2007. According to a report published last week, with a 7% improvement in terms of breast cancer survival, Ireland is one of the fastest improving countries in the OECD. While this is encouraging, we must not be complacent; there is room for substantial improvement. We want the outcomes from cancer in Ireland to be on a par with the best in the world. This happens already in respect of cancer treatment for children which is planned at a central facility in Our Lady's Hospital For Sick Children, Crumlin, even though it is delivered in 15 or 16 hospitals throughout the country. We are top of the class as far as outcomes are concerned in respect of the treatment of cancer in children. I want the same across all cancer treatment services. The challenge for us is to ensure we organise the service in a manner which delivers that higher quality.

I want now to deal with patient safety issues which have been uppermost in my mind as Minister for Health and Children. Patient safety must be at the heart of everything we do not alone in the area of cancer care. The Commission on Patient Safety and Quality Assurance, chaired by Dr. Deirdre Madden, will report next June. Membership of that commission includes people with clinical expertise, experience in the service delivery area, the Department of Health and Children, and people with a medical background. The issue of customer or consumer safety has been foremost in the minds of many other industries. We must learn from how they addressed these issues.

Following publication of the commission's report, which I hope to receive next year, issues such as licensing, accreditation and regulation will need to be addressed. The current situation in this regard is unsatisfactory in that virtually anybody can open a hospital or health facility without accreditation or licensing. This is, in my view, unsatisfactory. We cannot guarantee high standards of patient safety and quality assurance if we are not in a position to accredit, supervise or license the providers of health facilities and, in particular, hospitals. We will have to move into this new era fairly rapidly. In advance of this, we have introduced legislation in respect of the regulation of the medical profession. The Medical Practitioners Bill was recently debated in the Oireachtas. This provides for a lay majority in relation to the regulation of the medical profession. There is much discussion these days about the legal profession. We are ahead as far as medical regulation is concerned in that we have a lay majority on the Medical Council.

Much stronger than that, we have introduced competence assurance for the first time. If doctors want to remain on the register, they will have to satisfy competence assurance criteria. This has been in operation in many other countries for a considerable length of time. Given that we are entitled to expect those who trained in a different era to maintain their skills, as the vast majority of clinicians do, we will include such a requirement in legislation. We will provide for a pharmacy society that will be governed by a lay majority. We have provided for a lay majority in the health and social care professions. We will do likewise with nurses, midwives and dentists. We are doing that to inspire public confidence in the regulation of those professions. It is good for professions to have an outside input. The initiatives I introduced for the accounting profession in 1998 have been well received by accountants, even if there was some reluctance to accept them at the time. An accountant told me recently that his colleagues would not go back to the old system. I hope the same will be the case with medical regulation.

Equality of access to health services has been one of the issues of concern to members of this committee over recent years. It is a major issue for me too. Our public health system is funded by taxpayers - they pay the wages of our hospital workers and provide all our hospital beds, for example. I acknowledge that philanthropic contributions are occasionally made. Equality of access, which has been a major issue in the current negotiations with the consultants, is a fundamental issue as far as I am concerned. It is not acceptable that preferential access is being given to a group of citizens because they have medical insurance, or are in a position to pay to get themselves into publicly-funded facilities. We do not want any more cases like that of Mrs. Susie Long, who was told in an Irish hospital funded by the taxpayer that she could be diagnosed within a week if she had private health insurance. She had to wait a number of months because she did not have private health insurance, which was not acceptable to me.

Matters of this nature are at the heart of the new consultant contract of employment. The contract also relates to the issue of who makes appointments in our public hospitals. A number of weeks ago, the Government and the HSE accepted the recommendations of the independent chairman, Mr. Mark Connaughton, SC, regarding the negotiations. Time is running out for agreement on a new contract. The Irish health care system needs to employ a substantially increased number of consultants across a host of specialties, including cancer. The sooner we can employ more consultants under a new contract, the better. We will not revisit the various areas of negotiation which have been delayed for far too long. Time is running out. We want additional consultants to be recruited as early as possible in 2008 on the basis of a new contract of employment that better meets the future needs of the public health care system.

I will conclude my opening comments by speaking about the development of paediatric services, which is another subject in which members have a great interest. The establishment of the HSE has made it possible to do things, like the cancer control programme, which would have been impossible under the old health board regime. We are able to organise cancer and paediatric services on a national basis in a manner that delivers the best possible outcomes for patients throughout the country.

On foot of research carried out by the HSE, which was endorsed by the board of the HSE and the Government, we decided some time ago to establish a single paediatric hospital at a tertiary level for very sick children from all parts of the country. Following an independent process, it was decided to co-locate the hospital with the Mater Hospital. The development board of the hospital was recently appointed. The completion of that hospital project as quickly as possible is a priority under the capital funding programme. It is hoped that it will be done by 2012. The hospital will also provide secondary care for the Dublin area, as well as tertiary care for the whole country. As I said in the Dáil yesterday, an ambulatory care centre will be built at Tallaght Hospital in conjunction with the new national children's hospital. The centre at Tallaght will be part of the children's hospital; it will be a satellite of the national children's hospital. For many years those with an interest in paediatrics have longed for the day when that specialty could be brought into a single facility. It is not a question of a building but rather about bringing all the clinicians and the expertise together in a single place. Notwithstanding some of the criticism - which has been considerable - in so far as sick children are concerned and based on the advice available to us, the right decision has been made and the right decision will be supported. As with the cancer control programme, it is now a matter of proceeding with its implementation.

I will be delighted to answer the specific questions of members when they have an opportunity to ask them.

Professor Brendan Drumm

I am accompanied by national directors, John O'Brien from the National Hospitals Office, Laverne McGuinness from primary and continuing community care, and Liam Woods, national director for finance.

This is my first opportunity to address the committee since the commencement of the 30th Dáil and I wish to comment on several issues.

The transformation programme is a five-year programme which began just over two years ago. It is making progress and we will continue to drive it forward. We are continuing to provide more and better quality services to more people than ever before. Everyone is well aware of the progressive and dramatic increase in the population of the country which has occurred.

The Minister has referred to some of the issues, not least being the HSE involvement in bringing about savings in the area of expenditure on drugs. We expect savings of a minimum of €100 million a year based on current prices as a result of the agreed deal reached with the manufacturers of drugs and the change in the application of the wholesale margin for the distribution of drugs.

The Minister mentioned the development of the children's hospital. I emphasise that this will be a network for paediatric care at a national level and not simply a Dublin service. It is extremely important that it is closely and comprehensively linked up and down the country.

I acknowledge the tremendous commitment of the general practitioners in north Dublin to the roll-out of the out-of-hours service in that area, which has been another significant step for the people of Dublin. There is now a GP out-of-hours service serving 500,000 people in north Dublin. This service is a great success, due largely to the commitment of the general practitioners who serve the area during daytime hours.

In the north-east region, the services in five hospitals have been brought together to provide a comprehensive service. There are plans for the development of a new regional hospital which we hope will result in a change from the current situation whereby significant numbers of people from the north-east region must make their way to Dublin to access services which in other geographical areas are fully available.

During the period ending last September the HSE has provided more services across a wide range of areas than it was contracted to provide and we are happy to do so. These services include home help and home care services, in-patient and day case procedures and outpatient services. We are caring for more expectant mothers than had been envisaged and we are dealing with that challenge.

The number of people being cared for in accident and emergency departments is ahead of target. Every day, the HSE services treat approximately 3,000 people in the accident and emergency departments and approximately 1,000 patients a day are admitted to hospitals. It is not often acknowledged that approximately 90% of these are admitted immediately. It remains a challenge that the balance of approximately 100 patients must wait for admission. However, many patients wait for less than six hours. Last year the target was to have no patients waiting for admission for more than 24 hours and our target for this winter is to have no patient waiting for admission for more than 12 hours and this goal is being achieved in the majority of cases. In time it is hoped to reduce this waiting time further. However, we must accept also that given the nature of accident and emergency departments and their work, there will always be times when people have to wait for care and admission, appropriately so at times, because of the tremendous amount of work patients require from accident and emergency clinicians prior to admission.

Much of this improvement has come about through the work of the winter initiative, which we introduced last year. This mainly revolves around better hospital processes and interaction between hospital services and community services. We said at the time that simply building more of the same structures and operating through the same processes would not resolve, and never had resolved, the accident and emergency issue in previous years. Essentially, processes have been streamlined and service improvements are being targeted where they will have the greatest impact. Staff are 100% focused on the issue. The commitment of staff to resolving the problems of accident and emergency services must be acknowledged. The achievements to date have been made by staff focusing on processes, rather than adding more of what was already there.

How we use hospital beds is closely related to this issue. During the year we carried out a major study on bed dependency which found that, on average, approximately 40% of people in acute hospital beds on the day these beds were surveyed did not need to be there. They could have received their treatment at home or in an alternative setting. I cannot over-emphasise the importance of that finding. Nobody should be in a hospital bed unnecessarily and it is unfair to put people in that position.

When we examined why people were admitted in the first place, we found that 13% did not need admission. To this we can add a further 12% who were admitted for intravenous treatments alone, which is normally provided outside the acute hospital setting in other countries. We cannot continue with a situation where elderly people have to be transferred from a care of the elderly facility to an acute facility, totally discommoding them, simply because they need intravenous therapy. We have to change these types of practices. Up to 25% of people did not need admission in the first place.

These figures clearly tell us a lot about how we are using our hospital infrastructure and, in particular, that the solution to improving access to hospital services is to use the acute beds we have more efficiently and to build up a wider range and volume of community-based services. We can improve access by concentrating on getting people out of hospital and either into a facility closer to their home or directly home where they can receive further treatment if required. Over the previous winter months we had a hospital-in-the-home facility running in the Dublin area which made provision for a doctor to come to the home when necessary and which also allowed for the provision of 24-hour nursing in the home.

Compared with what is being achieved in other countries, this is a realistic expectation. In the longer term, given our ageing population we have to change how we do things. We will need more rehabilitation beds, long-term care beds and, most importantly, more community-based facilities.

The idea of keeping people in acute beds for longer than is needed is not fair on patients and their families. Indeed, for older people the evidence is that the longer they stay in acute facilities, the more detrimental the effect it can have on their overall well-being. It also greatly diminishes their chance of returning to an independent life, which they may well have had prior to admission to an acute facility.

Many hospitals are operating practices and processes which enable patients to move in and out of their hospitals more effectively and we need to build on what has been achieved. For example, the Mater Hospital now delivers 64% of all its surgery on a day-case basis. In St. James's Hospital, 82% of surgery patients are admitted on the day they receive the surgery. This is in marked contrast to what goes on in other parts of the country. At Cork University Hospital the number of surgical patients that are discharged at the weekend is twice the rate of other hospitals. If we could spread that practice across the country, we would free up a significant amount of resources.

These three practices alone; more day cases, more admissions on the day of surgery and improved discharge planning, can have a very significant impact on the availability of acute hospital beds and reduce our average length of stays in line with what happens in other countries.

A recent study of one of the major Dublin hospitals showed that by improving the internal practices and processes alone by 50% of what would be considered achievable, without the addition of any new resources, 60 beds could be freed up and the waiting times in accident and emergency departments could be addressed. As a result of the hospital's commitment to change and improvements made to date, a cross-hospital project is under way at this hospital and the benefits are being realised thanks to the commitment of staff to engage in process change, which is always challenging.

Performance measurement is an area to which we are paying particular attention. We will shortly introduce a system allowing us to easily compare, hospital by hospital, community facility by community facility, how facilities are functioning in three performance areas, namely, access, integration and resources. It is now clear that the application of resources in the Irish health system is inequitable when comparing one area with another. In the area of access we will measure how long it takes to access particular services in one part of the country as opposed to another and share the learning from the best with those that are experiencing difficulties.

We will look to see how well services are integrated between the hospital and the community. We will compare day case rates in one versus another, day of surgery admission rates and average length of stays, which vary significantly throughout the country. Patients being admitted with the same condition can stay in hospital for totally different periods of time. This will enable us, based on facts, to identify if and why some facilities are achieving better results in these areas than in others.

This will, in turn, support the third area which is how well each facility is using its resources, including staff ratios, the number of staff a facility has per bed, the ratios of junior doctors to consultants, comparison of absenteeism rates between institutions and across grades, etc. In an environment with a continual stream of demands for more resources this approach will enable us to identify where our resources are having the greatest impact and where remedial work is needed. For example, we will be able to ascertain whether the waiting lists in a particular facility are justified when considered against the resources provided to the facility.

Waiting lists have been the subject of much comment. At the end of September there were almost 39,000 people waiting to have elective inpatient or day case treatment. In isolation this seems like a high number, but relative to our workload it is not necessarily so. It represents a little over 3% of the number of inpatient and day case procedures we will carry out this year. It represents approximately two weeks' work in the system. However, the important point is not how many people are waiting, but how long people are waiting. Just under half of those waiting are waiting less than three months and two thirds are waiting less than six months. These waiting times have come down significantly in recent years. In the past they were years long. Now, in the majority of cases they are months. I believe we will be able to bring them down further.

When looking at these figures it must be kept in mind that sometimes patients do not take the first available slot as it may not suit them or they may not be ready to have their procedures for a variety of reasons and may wish to defer. While some patients may not choose to avail of the National Treatment Purchase Fund after they have been waiting for three months or more, it is a service that is available for people and there is an onus on local hospitals - and for us to put that onus there - to refer patients to the National Treatment Purchase Fund.

The Minister referred to the national cancer control programme, which took a major step forward this week when Professor Tom Keane joined the HSE as interim director. The development of the eight specialist cancer centres will reduce the likelihood of the types of errors which have been reported in the past and will improve survival rates. This is not to say that error will no longer occur, but we need to minimise the risk of it occurring. Quality cannot be maintained where there are low activity levels. We therefore are failing the public if we insist on maintaining facilities that do not provide the best possible outcomes. I sincerely urge all community leaders, communities and clinicians to recognise and accept that quality cannot and must not be compromised ahead of convenience.

I refer to the financial situation. Earlier this year, we advised service units and agencies around the country that due to the increase in the level of services we are providing and other supports such as the drugs repayment scheme, we were experiencing increased pressure on our annual budget, which amounts to approximately 1% to 1.5% of our total budget. We operate within a very strict budgetary environment and are legally required to balance our budget. All managers and agencies, in turn, have a clear responsibility to operate within their designated budgets and deliver on their service targets. Delivering contract levels of services can only be achieved where funds are available through substantial value for money initiatives. We are fully delivering services in line with our commitment and in some instances, as I outlined earlier, over and above our commitment.

National and local initiatives required to address the potential end of year budget overrun are in place. These included the following: cost containment measures in non-direct costs such as travel, hotel hire and training; reductions in non-frontline expenditure and non-frontline pay such as, value for money initiatives; efficiencies in energy use; and patient debt collection.

At the beginning of September, we introduced a recruitment pause to apply to all posts - except in certain circumstances which are considered weekly by a derogation committee, which approves a range of frontline posts. More than 450 posts have been approved by this derogation process since the recruitment pause began. We continue to monitor carefully the impact these initiatives are having to ensure that everyone who requires urgent and essential care receives it.

There are a number of significant reasons for the current heightened financial pressure including, in particular, demand-led schemes. The cost of demand-led schemes, in the main drug demand schemes, is likely to be over €150 million in excess of the budget provided for 2007. This year we received a capital budget of €545.95 million and we have put a strong focus on ensuring that it is fully invested as it is critically important that we develop and upgrade our infrastructure.

There is much commentary about employee numbers in the HSE and I would now like to address this issue. The health service employs almost 130,000 full and part-time personnel. There is often confusion between whole-time equivalents, WTEs, and the number of personnel, because clearly all these people do not work full time. A key HR policy of the HSE, since its establishment, is that priority be given to frontline staff. This is what has been done and will continue to be done.

Since the establishment of the HSE, the number of medical and dental personnel has increased by 15.5%, and nursing personnel by 13.6%. The number of health and social care professionals increased by 23% with a 32% increase in dieticians, a 35% increase in occupational therapists, a 24% increase in physiotherapists and a 30% increase in speech and language therapists. Those are very substantial increases in frontline staff and we must ensure the public is getting a better service.

Contrary to much recent commentary, the vast majority of clerical, administrative and management staff work in hospitals and community-based services, and perform key functions in regard to patients and service planning, without which the health service could not function. The suggestion that the health service can function without a significant administrative support is totally unreasonable and it is impossible to know how a service of this size could be seen to work without very significant administrative support across the system.

The recent Health Information and Quality Authority, HIQA, national hygiene services review is welcomed, particularly its findings on service delivery which are a validation of the focus the HSE has placed on hospital hygiene in the last two years. The HSE has recently put in place a significant number of strategic, structural and governance initiatives which, unfortunately, have been too late for consideration in this year's HIQA report.

The HIQA review emphasises that a lot of good work has been undertaken and positive assessments were made in hospital hygiene and, in particular, to service delivery areas such as hand hygiene, equipment, medical and cleaning devices. The review notes good hand washing practices, the commitment and attitude of staff, their adherence to mandatory staff training and a good standard of management of hazardous waste. HIQA states, "It is clear from the report that work to drive improvements on the front line has paid dividends." We believe that the review reflects the significant improvements in hospital hygiene that have been driven forward by two national hygiene audits and a range of HSE initiatives.

The HSE's previous two hygiene audits in 2005 and 2006 focussed exclusively on how clean our hospitals were. The HIQA review differs from previous hygiene audits in placing a much greater emphasis and weighting on governance issues, including management structures, monitoring systems and processes.

The HSE has been addressing these issues and in March of this year established a national health care associated infection, HCAI, governance group to develop and implement a strategy to reduce hospital and health care acquired infection. The "say no to infection" programme has produced and identified actions that will reduce the potential for infection to pass between people in the health care setting and to reduce antibiotic use and antimicrobial resistance. A reduction in the use of antibiotics is without doubt the single most important issue in terms of reducing these infections.

The plan's five year objectives are to reduce health care acquired infections by 20%, MRSA infections by 30% and antibiotic consumption by 20%. Through a range of measures now being put in place, such as training and education, standards for health care facilities and specific targets for hospitals and governance structures, we strongly expect to see our "say no to infection" strategy reflected positively in the next HIQA review.

These are some of the key areas I wanted to cover. Together with my colleagues we will do our best to respond to members' questions.

I welcome the Minister and her team, the Secretary General of the Department of Health and Children, and Professor Drumm and his team from the HSE. How long will the Minister, the Secretary General and Professor Drumm be with us this morning?

Professor Drumm must leave at 12 noon and the Minister at 1 p.m., at the latest.

May I address questions to the Minister and Professor Drumm separately, Vice Chairman? I understand you wish members to put questions to Professor Drumm before the Minister answers her questions.

That is correct.

I will put my questions individually and sequentially. I would like the Minister and Professor Drumm to answer their own questions unless they feel there is benefit in passing questions to each other.

In the news last evening, I said Dr. Ann O'Doherty is an excellent clinical radiologist. I have no concerns about her ability as a clinician or radiologist, or her ability to review mammograms. Indeed, I believe others may have been involved in reviewing the mammograms in question.

My concern is that she has been placed in an invidious situation by being put in charge of an internal inquiry. Did the Minister know when Dr. O'Doherty was placed in charge of the inquiry, that she had been a member of the interview board? Regardless of any legal advice the Minister may have, the fact that Dr. O'Doherty was on the board which approved the appointment of this lady will be seen as a potential conflict of interest.

I am given to understand that she was one of the people who expressed concerns about the doctor's mammography experience. If that is the case and she finds against her, the doctor will have a right in law to appeal that finding on the grounds of bias. The Minister has placed Dr. O'Doherty in an invidious situation. I lay no blame at the foot of Dr. O'Doherty. I lay it at the feet of the Minister and the HSE. Did the Minister know Dr. O'Doherty had been on the interview board? Who appointed Dr. O'Doherty to head the inquiry?

In the Dáil yesterday, the Minister took exception to my asking her if she was aware of other letters languishing in the Department of Health and Children. The Minister replied that she was not in a position to answer my question. Did her predecessor, Deputy Micheál Martin, receive a letter from Mr. Peter Naughton regarding services at Portlaoise hospital?

I also asked the Minister yesterday if she was prepared to appoint an arbitrator in the dispute with the Irish Pharmaceutical Union. Can the Minister assure the public of continuity of service on 1 December? This is the concern of the 1.5 million people who use this service.

With regard to cancer services, I have a degree of sympathy with Professor Drumm. He was presented with a structure when he was appointed to head the HSE. The regional and national directors had already been appointed and he was left to manage a situation instead of being allowed to build his own team and process. Like Professor Keane, he arrived in Ireland with an excellent record and is a fellow Dubliner. However, he was presented with a fait accompli. The number of sites and their locations were determined. Many in this room and throughout the country wonder at the lack of service north of a line from Dublin to Galway. Will Professor Drumm have the power to alter the number and location of sites? Will he be given a proper budget in addition to the existing budget? No one believes that what is planned can be achieved with the existing budget. What the people find objectionable is the ongoing stripping of current service on the promise of another to be provided in the future. This is not good enough.

I alluded earlier to the long delay from August until yesterday in our receiving from the Minister confirmation that nine women have been confirmed as having breast cancer. Our thoughts are with them today. That is an inordinately long time to be left waiting for a final diagnosis. The State did these women a disservice. It should have turned every stone and jumped every fence to ensure they received immediate treatment. It does not take that long to perform a biopsy and provide pathology results.

What hope have the thousands of women in the midlands that might require cancer treatment services when services in their area have been closed? Why not try to remedy the service by putting in another radiologist and a digital mammographer machine which could be read in Dublin, Cork or Galway and allow the service to continue until the new service is up and running in whatever location is decided? Why not do this rather than close down the service?

Why did the Minister allow the Taoiseach to mislead the Dáil and tell the House that he first learned of the problems at Portlaoise in August 2007? That is an important question.

The Deputy has taken up nearly five minutes of the time allowed.

The Taoiseach was asked when he was first alerted to the difficulties at Portlaoise. The Minister received a letter in July 2005.

Has the public private partnership process been discontinued? Clearly there are issues that need to be addressed in this regard. I would like to address a few questions to Professor Drumm. I have before me a memorandum on his concern that the transformation programme would not meet its schedule. Can Professor Drumm outline his concern to the committee?

Professor Drumm stated that we do not need more beds. I agree with him that primary care is the way forward. However, we will need more beds in the short term until primary care is sufficiently robust to handle matters. On PPARS, what is the status of the Astron and McDonagh reports and how much has been spent on this so far this year? Will Professor Drumm comment on the Comptroller and Auditor General's report in respect of the gaps and errors in information and the overspending on IT of approximately €4.5 million?

On Professor Drumm's comments regarding beds and discharges, 22,000 bed days were lost last year in Beaumont Hospital alone. These beds were not lost as a result of discharges not taking place at weekends; they were lost because beds were not made available in the community for the patients even though, as I understand it, they could have been made available. Will Professor Drumm comment on the situation whereby the cost within the hospital system for a patient whose treatment is complete yet he or she remains in the hospital bed awaiting transfer is in the region of €1,300 per day whereas such bed if occupied by an acutely ill person would cost €5,000 to €7,000 per day? He might tell us whether this influences decisions to discharge patients and the making available of beds in the community.

Dr. O'Doherty was appointed by the HSE to carry out the review. As I stated in my opening comments, she established BreastCheck and the quality assurance programme in Northern Ireland where she worked as a consultant for many years prior to taking up her position as head of the Merrion Centre at St. Vincent's Hospital. She is the only Irish member of the Royal College of Radiologists standards committee. Dr. O'Doherty was invited by the HSE to conduct this review.

I became aware approximately two weeks ago that she had been on the interview board. It was a public appointments interview board. Women in the midlands of Ireland have had their mammograms reviewed by Dr. O'Doherty and I do not want them thinking they were not reviewed by a competent, expert person.

Nobody is saying that.

Dr. O'Doherty is not in a position to defend herself. Legal advice was sought on this by the HSE and I will, therefore, allow the HSE to deal with the matter.

That is not the question. The question I asked has nothing to do with Dr. O'Doherty's capability. It relates to the decision to place her in a position of potential conflict in terms of her ability to head up an inquiry and not to review mammograms. The Minister should not mislead the committee.

Deputy Reilly has put question marks over Dr. O'Doherty.

I have not. I have put them over the Minister and the HSE. The Minister is misinterpreting what has been said and she well knows that.

Dr. O'Doherty is not in a position to defend herself as she is heading up an inquiry.

She does not need to defend herself.

The Deputy has suggested that she is conflicted.

No. Her clinical ability is not in question at all and never has been.

What is the issue then?

She has been asked to head up an internal inquiry into what happened and who was at fault. That is different to just reviewing the mammograms. The Minister has placed Dr. O'Doherty in an invidious situation, given that she was a member of the board. One way or the other, people will think Dr. O'Doherty has a potential conflict of interest. That is what is wrong. The only way this can be resolved is by instituting an independent inquiry, outside the HSE, so the people can have some faith in the authority of the Minister and the HSE over our health services.

I know I am in the Chair, but I would like to comment on this matter because I am involved in it in some way, which is difficult. I want to make it clear that I have no doubts about Dr. O'Doherty's clinical ability and have never had any such doubts. However, I question her suitability for this position given that she was on the interview board. That is the issue being raised.

Dr. O'Doherty was asked to review more than 3,000 mammograms and she did so in her spare time. She has reassured more than 3,000 women. She has diagnosed nine cases of cancer. In the terms of reference of the inquiry, she was asked by the HSE to make whatever recommendations she thought appropriate. The HSE has my full support in seeking somebody to--

There will never be any inquiry, even though the Minister told Deputy Charles Flanagan that there was to be an internal inquiry.

I ask Deputy Reilly to allow the Minister to answer the questions he has asked.

The Deputy either wants me to answer the questions, or he does not.

I would like the Minister to answer them properly.

I am answering the questions.

I ask Deputy Reilly not to interrupt again.

The Deputy asked another question about letters languishing in the Department. When he asked yesterday about a letter that was sent to my office in the Department in July 2005, I told him I did not become aware of the existence of the letter until a couple of weeks ago. The letter was thoroughly and appropriately handled in the Department's cancer unit. The unit communicated with the HSE and Dr. Hollywood, who was responsible for these matters as the medical director in the midlands at that time, and they engaged in discussions with Mr. Naughton. I have met Mr. Naughton on many occasions in recent times, but he has not mentioned anything about being unhappy with the treatment of correspondence. If Deputy Reilly has a letter that goes back further than that, I would like to see it and investigate it.

When Professor O'Higgins made his recommendations in 2001, he said that the decision on whether the midlands area might support a breast cancer care unit was a marginal one. The then Midlands Health Board decided to concentrate its activities in this area in three locations, with a little bit in Mullingar, Tullamore and Portlaoise. When the Department of Health and Children made more than €7 million available to the health board to implement Professor O'Higgins's recommendations, the money was spread around three places, which was never going to lead to the delivery of the kind of service expected by the people of the region.

The Minister had no responsibility.

Many members of Deputy Reilly's party were involved in the decision to divide the €7 million among three hospitals. It was the subject of High Court litigation. The medical director sought to convince the health board that one facility should be developed in the midlands. It strongly recommended that such a decision be taken. Professor O'Higgins said in his report that the volumes in the midlands area meant that it was a marginal call. However, the then Midlands Health Board decided that the facility should be spread across three sites. That is a good example of the difficulties we experienced under the old health board regime. Deputy Reilly asked me when I became aware of issues relating to the suspension of the service in Portlaoise. I learned about them around the end of August, which was also when the problems at Barringtons Hospital came into the public domain. The HSE informed the deputy medical officer in the Department of Health and Children about these issues and that official then informed me. The Taoiseach did not mislead the Dáil - that is a fact.

The letter was addressed to the Minister.

As I said yesterday in the Dáil, the Department receives 6,000 letters each year, for example complaining about doctors.

It cannot receive very many from senior surgeons.

No. The Department gets letters complaining about doctors' rotations, for example. It is not uncommon to get letters from doctors complaining about a lack of resources. We get letters from other health care professionals. Such letters are dealt with robustly and thoroughly in the Department. The matter could not have been handled any better even if I had been given Mr. Naughton's letter - that is a fact. These issues are constantly being reviewed in the Department. The medical team in the Department, which is involved in patient safety issues, also deals with correspondence received by the Department or the Minister.

Professor Keane sat in on the last meeting at which the centres were identified. He was fully aware of the identification of the centres. He has told me that he fully endorses the decision made. If Professor Keane, who has a great deal of expertise, or Professor Drumm decide that an error was made in identifying the eight centres, that would not be an issue. However, nobody has ever suggested that we have not done the right thing. Deputy O'Reilly is a doctor and I remind him that volume equals quality and 250 different publications back up this view. This is the reason this approach has been adopted in many other countries.

Professor Drumm will deal with the issues of continuity of service for pharmaceutical supplies because this is an operational issue. As Professor Keane himself has acknowledged and as I have stated, much of what is involved is the redirection of resources. We have invested an extra €1 billion in cancer care in the past decade. The budget will be announced in less than two weeks' time. When the Minister for Finance makes his announcement about additional funding for the health service, we will be in a position to allocate funds to areas of priority. It is a certainty that more money will be available but the big issue is the reorganisation of the service. More than 70 surgeons across the country undertake breast surgery while what is required is somewhere between 20 and 30 surgeons. As was the case in British Columbia, much of the challenge is to do with the redirection of resources and not just about the allocation of new resources.

Professor Drumm referred to bed utilisation in his opening presentation. Much of the health reform agenda is about a more effective and efficient use of the resources that can be made available by the taxpayers.

As I stated recently in the Dáil, I understand that the area of digital radiography and in particular, digital mammography, was not as developed as digital radiology in other sectors. I await the report fromAnn O’Doherty with respect to these issues. It is clear that if a different set of consultants reading the same mammograms came to a different decision, the issue was not the equipment. If there could have been nine diagnoses on the basis of the same data being read by different people, then the issue is clear. The PPP process has not been suspended. A total of almost €500 million is contained in the national development plan health capital programme for public private partnerships and this fund will be used to develop the radiotherapy facility.

Professor Drumm

I will try to cover all the issues raised by Deputy O'Reilly.

John O'Brien used innovative methods to progress the cancer strategy. I will ask him to comment on Ann O'Doherty's ongoing investigation.

Mr. John O’Brien

I wish to clarify that when Dr. O'Doherty was asked to undertake this exercise it was not to review an individual but rather to review services in the area. The terms of reference are quite clear in that they state she is to review symptomatic breast services at the Midland Regional Hospital with particular emphasis on mammography and ultrasound. This is exactly what she is undertaking. I am advised the mammography element of the report is virtually complete and the report is likely to be available to us towards the end of this month. The ultrasound review is still under way and has not been completed yet. It involves a review of 568 ultrasounds of which 294 have been completed at this stage and 177 remain to be reviewed. The review of ultrasound was included for absolute completeness. While the issue that gave rise to the HSE undertaking the review in the first instance related to mammography, we wished to ensure that every facet of the service was investigated. The review of the 294 cases to date has identified a requirement to recall 97 patients for surgical review - not for ultrasound or mammography review. That is being organised to take place in the next week. To the extent that there is a need, following that particular surgical review, to provide further mammography or ultrasound testing, that will be arranged as quickly as possible. We have already started the process of working with some of the Dublin hospitals to identify capacity to do that as a matter of urgency. That is the up-to-date position on the review of breast radiology services in the hospital.

Professor Drumm

I have been clear about the pharmacy issue being one where we have had negotiations with two of the three groups involved. Subsequently we were precluded due to a legal opinion that was stimulated from the wholesalers themselves from concluding a deal with them in a negotiated settlement because it was confirmed to be contrary to competition law. We have engaged with the Irish Pharmaceutical Union, IPU, through the independent office of a counsel in Dublin and we are reasonably hopeful that we are close to an agreement with it on moving forward.

Two issues remain to be dealt with, namely, non-fee issues which are extremely important in terms of how drugs are dispensed and how we manage that area, and the wider services that can be provided through pharmacies and fees for services. We can discuss with the IPU the non-fee issues and it now accepts we cannot discuss the fee issues. What we have to do is find a process with which we believe everybody is reasonably happy that is fair and above board in terms of dealing with the fee issues. As of the past couple of days, I am reasonably confident we are close to achieving that in facilitated negotiations with the IPU through an independent counsel. I hope in the coming week we will be in a position to clarify that. I am hopeful of a resolution.

Professor Keane has undertaken a significant task in regard to cancer services. He has moved back here from Canada and joined up with the Health Service Executive after spending much of his life there. He has clearly taken up the position because of the challenge to improve things rather than anything else. As far as we are concerned, he has the power to do what he considers achievable in terms of cancer services. He operates in a reporting relationship with me and we operate in response to policy set down by the Government and the Department of Health and Children. Within those constraints I see him as having absolute authority. I do not see myself as challenging his expertise.

Professor Keane will examine the issue of equipment and where film or digital work can be done and transferred elsewhere. He will be central to how the system operates. The issue of mammography and equipment was raised on the radio. It is accepted practically everywhere that film is probably the most accurate way of doing mammography and that digital has struggled to reach the accuracy levels provided by film. This confirms what the Minister stated. It is not a surprise that people reading the films found them to be of an excellent standard because film is known to be, if anything, superior to digital. I accept the point that digital mammography might allow for images to be transferred. The challenge in mammography will be in the technical carrying out of the mammogram as much as in the equipment. All of these issues will have to be defined in terms of what is reasonable and safe to do. This will be part of Professor Keane's remit and I will not lay down the rules and regulations for it.

Mr. O’Brien

If I can add to what Professor Drumm said about the issue raised with the Minister by Deputy Reilly about Professor Keane walking into a done-deal type position. In effect, Professor Keane participated in that process. He was present at the final meeting at which the document to back up the eight cancer centres was signed off. He was in full accord with the determination that was made in that area.

Professor Drumm

On the memo written by me regarding the transformation programme that appeared in yesterday's Irish Independent, I have no difficulty with that memo appearing anywhere. The transformation is often spoken about, but perhaps people are not aware that it is run on the same basis as any transformation in a major corporate business. I want people to be clear on that. The term “transformation” is not just thrown out there. We have identified the priorities and more than 100 projects are mapped to deliver that transformation. It goes across everything from HR issues, including how people work and how their working day is, right through to how long primary care is open for and the workings of processes in hospitals in terms of access to diagnostics, etc. Those would all be individual projects. Approximately 25 to 27 of those would be considered--

May I ask the Chair to ask for order?

As some comments are being picked up on the microphones, I ask for order please.

Professor Drumm

There are 25 to 27 priority projects, each of which is mapped with a project director and has very specific time-based achievements. There is a traffic light system, which is reviewed every month, to identify whether people are reaching their targets. It is an extremely tightly mapped organisational process. While I accept we will miss targets at several times in that process, we will identify them instantly when they occur. I suggest that this is an extremely tightly managed process compared with many transformation programmes. I am told that up to 80% of transformation programmes in the wider business world fail because of the lack of attention to detail. We are determined that this one will not fail and we are determined that we will be very clear within our own organisation when we come across any sign of stalling. We have identified times when we get concerned that we are not hitting our targets and I hope that my memo indicates our absolute commitment to driving the matter forward rather than anything else. That remains our commitment. Significant progress has been made. We would like to make quicker progress and we are determined to reach our deadlines. That was the purpose of the memo, which is a good thing and not a bad thing.

I will need to come back to Deputy Reilly on the specific amount spent on PPARS this year. Let me be clear about PPARS. We stopped the further roll out of PPARS when I took up my position in the HSE because of concerns at the amount being spent on consultancy, etc., on delivery of the PPARS programme. However, there is sometimes confusion that PPARS as a system was a failure. In the many areas in which it is operational, PPARS is for the first time ever providing the health services with accurate data regarding HR functioning. For the first time ever we can give accurate absenteeism rates not only across different institutions, but also across different sectors, such as nursing, medics and other services. That is quite striking information.

PPARS or a similar structure is essential to the running of any organisation of this size. We need to separate the cost of establishing PPARS - we may disagree on what that cost was - from the fact that it functions extremely well where it is operating. For example, an institution like St. James's Hospital has been able to drive down its absenteeism rate in comparison with the rest of the country because of the information made available through PPARS. PPARS is running in numerous areas at the moment and we will give members the figure for how much has been spent on it. I point out that this money would be spent anyway through payroll systems and other HR systems. However, I will supply the exact breakdown.

The beds issue is clearly always challenging. I want to try to move the argument beyond beds. I accept what Deputy Reilly said. He has considerable knowledge of the central role primary care can play and the expanded role of primary care. I remain convinced the biggest loss to Irish medicine has been what I would call the downgrading of the role of primary care in the past 20 or 30 years. There has been significant emphasis on the fact that patients were not seeing a proper doctor unless they actually got to a hospital, even though they might have passed by the door of an individual with ten times the experience of the person they met in the hospital. I will not go on about that, but that is the situation. The thinking now is moving to using that expertise.

Having said that, we must introduce a model of care involving the provision of far more support in the community. Members know as well as me, that this represents a major challenge. The challenge is often not about the extra support that needs to be put into the community, but the reorientation of hospital services to start operating in the community so that the people are aware that the hospital psychotherapist and occupational therapist know the local GPs and have a responsibility to respond to the GP's patients rather having them come into hospital. In regard to beds, if we achieve that model of care, then the bed numbers required should be lower than at present. However, if we do not, the bed numbers will increase significantly.

On the question of access to long-term beds, there is no doubt that hospital patients, particularly in Dublin, are in beds that are inappropriate to their needs. That is unfair to them and is by no means the ideal solution. We have identified in one Dublin hospital - again I acknowledge this was done with the co-operation of staff - processes of change not relating to long-stay beds that could free up to 60 beds, even if we could only implement 50% of those process improvements. The issue of long-term beds is a challenge in Dublin because of the availability of long-term beds in the community. The Deputy stated that beds were available in the community, but the HSE has had great difficulty in accessing beds in the community and we believe that will be a bigger challenge in terms of how the private sector responds to the necessary increased regulation of the nursing home system.

We need to be extremely careful that we do not blame long-term stay beds for all problems. If we do that, the system would abdicate its responsibility to improve its processes for all the other beds that are not being used in the most efficient way by international standards. We are trying to deal with both scenarios. Is there an economic advantage to having somebody in a long stay bed in a major hospital? The answer is yes, because a long-stay patient should not cost as much as an acutely ill patient going through that system. The Deputy is right in that assumption.

Two of my questions were not answered. On the continuity of supply to ensure that with IPU, it is fine and well to accept that the HSE is making progress--

No comments please.

Professor Drumm did not identify the problems in the memo to which he alluded, which are delaying the transformation.

Professor Drumm

We have detailed project plans of all our memos. We get an indication each month as to whether we are reaching our targets in terms of time in our 25 priority projects and across the 100 projects in the system. Once we see a red light that indicates that we have slipped behind time, and that can happen on several projects, we will immediately take action.

Could members get a report on the problems that have been identified rather than going through it here.

Professor Drumm

This is going on month in, month out and is the day-to-day business of the HSE. It would be exceptional to start to comment month on month on more than 100 projects up and down the country.

With respect, this is a unique memo.

Deputy Reilly has asked his question.

Sorry, other members wish to come in.

Many other members need to come in.

Professor Drumm

It is not at all unique. It may be unique in that it got into the newspapers, but I have many examples of similar memos.

Will Professor Drumm comment on the question of pharmacists and continuity.

Professor Drumm

I am hopeful that we are very close to an agreement with the pharmacists.

To allow other members a reasonable time, I will not repeat my question on pharmacists, which has been covered. Some €20.5 million was identified to implement the new cancer strategy. What has been the total spend to date on that? When will BreastCheck be rolled out in the next nine counties? I am aware that 22 new radiographers have been interviewed. How many radiographers do we have now and is it enough to provide the service?

I am aware also of the 23 working oncologists on the cancer programme. Is this number sufficient to provide for the new cancer strategy? I am aware of a vaccine for cervical cancer. Are there plans to introduce an immunization programme? It would be very beneficial if that were introduced. On digital mammography, I take the point that the preference is to have a piece of paper in one's hand. I am nervous of e-voting again. Where will the patients be accommodated when the centres of excellence are up and running? I have before me figures from a surgeon who deals with many cancers. Of the 2,700 cancers diagnosed and treated here, there were 14,000 cancer episodes including, outpatient visits and tests, scans, radiological, GP and ancillary services such as meeting people to discuss wigs and so on. Will the clinical encounters take place in the centres or local hospitals? I raised the other day the question of whether a surgeon from Kilkenny who is treating a patient in that area be required to travel with the patient to Waterford? I do not believe this will be a healthy use of the consultant's or patient's time.

The applied behavioural analysis service has proven beneficial to those diagnosed with autism. Will this service be available to all those who need it? There is no ambulance service in Carrick-on-Suir despite the many promises in respect of this service by members of the Government parties prior to the election. When will Carrick-on-Suir be provided with an ambulance service?

While developmental check-ups for children should take place at nine months many children are not receiving them until they are two years old. I would like if Professor Drumm, who is aware that the optimum time for developmental checks is nine months, could comment on this. What are the long term plans for small maternity hospitals with approximately 1,000 deliveries per annum?

Most of the Senator's questions were directed to the HSE. However, I will deal with some of them. BreastCheck is not yet part of the HSE though obviously it will be merged with the cancer control programme in due course. I am not up to date in regard to the interviews that took place yesterday. They were conducted by teleconference in places as far away as New Zealand and some 28 radiographers were interviewed. I have not yet been informed of the outcome.

Some €5 million of the moneys to which Senator Prendergast referred was spent on the roll-out of cervical cancer screening which will be undertaken next year and on recruitment of staff and so on. Money was also provided for the development of the facilities in Cork and Galway. In May of this year, the service was rolled out in Roscommon and more recently in Galway and Cork. Women in the relevant age group and living in those areas have been written to regarding an appointment for screening. There are four mobile units in the south and three mobile units in the west. Much of the screening will be done by way of mobile facilities to ensure women do not have to travel for screening to the centres in Galway and Cork. The roll-out period is approximately 24 to 27 months from the time a programme begins to when it completes its work. This involves screening some 78,000 people in the south and 58,000 people in the west. Screening in the west will commence in May.

We discussed the other day the issue of extending BreastCheck to women aged over 65. As the spokesperson on older people, I believe they should not be excluded given 11% of our population is over 65 years of age. While men can get breast cancer, it is a rare occurrence. Women aged over 65 will account for approximately 6% of those who will get cancer. Extending BreastCheck to include those over 65 years of age would not have enormous cost implications. We should not operate this ageist-type policy.

The programme will be extended. Following its roll-out to the initial group, the programme will be rolled out to people up to 69 years of age. The expert forum has not recommended that it be rolled out to people under 50 years of age. It has recommended that following the initial roll-out to those in the 50 to 64 age group, it will then be rolled out to women up to the age of 70. That will happen after the initial roll-out.

The Senator also asked about immunisation, which was discussed on Question Time in the Dáil yesterday. It is clear that the vaccine she mentioned is a preventive one. I want it to be rolled out with the cervical screening programme, but that will depend on the budgetary allocation for the health sector. It is obvious that it will not be rolled out at the same time. As I said yesterday, the vaccine is the cheaper aspect of the roll-out. The more expensive aspect of the process is the paying of fees to general practitioners. We want to facilitate the roll-out of a vaccination programme as quickly as possible. We are awaiting a technology assessment from the Health Information and Quality Authority, to be concluded in January. I have no reason to believe the authority will not find that our plans are in order, although I do not know what is in its report. If the authority endorses the administration of the vaccine to girls aged 11 and 12, who comprise the relevant age group, we will have to consider other issues. We will have to decide whether to administer it through schools, which would be my personal preference. I would like to take advice on the matter.

Professor Drumm

I ask my colleague, Mr. John O'Brien, to respond to Senator Prendergast's first question, which was about the HSE's expenditure on cancer services.

Mr. O’Brien

I do not have all the details sought by Senator Prendergast, but I will arrange for them to be sent to her. Most of the €20.5 million to which she referred was allocated to BreastCheck, rather than to the HSE. To the best of my recollection, approximately €12 million of it was spent by BreastCheck. I will have to check with my officials to get the full details.

I understand that some of the €20.5 million was spent on the roll-out of the national radiation oncology programme, including the appointment of additional radiation oncologists. That process has been somewhat stymied by the process of negotiating the new consultant contract. The funds in question were also used to establish the cancer programme. There has been a significant overspend on oncology drugs this year. Perhaps "overspend" is not the correct term, but more money than anticipated was spent. Moneys had to be diverted from the €20.5 million to deal with that problem and to help the health sector to break even.

Professor Drumm

The HSE wholeheartedly supports the point made by Senator Prendergast about surgical and other services needed by oncology patients. I agree that there are many more episodes of care than there are patients. Practically all such forms of care should be provided very close to people or in their homes. I agree that 20 people should not have to travel to see a single surgeon. The HSE would like a substantial proportion of chemotherapy to be offered in local centres, as long as it is planned after diagnoses have been made. There is no reason the provision of cancer services and many other services will not benefit from these changes. We believe that the reorganisation that is planned in the north east, for example, will improve services for people locally. It will mean that clinics will start to come to people, rather than people always having to come to clinics. We all agree that is a good idea. I ask my colleague, Ms McGuinness, to comment on autism services.

Ms Laverne McGuinness

Autism services, which are organised quite differently in various parts of the country, are being reviewed to determine the best mode of practice. The Beechpark Services facility, for example, is in the eastern area. The review relates to how autism services operate in counties Dublin, Wicklow and Kildare, which are on the eastern seaboard. The Beechpark Services facility, which was established in 1998, provides a specialist service for children who have been diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder but do not have a significant intellectual disability. The facility offers multidisciplinary clinical services to children who attend outreach classes, designated as such by the Department of Education and Science, and their families. There are designated schools in places like Ballyroan and Stillorgan. A number of children from the designated schools and outreach classes who meet the criteria for Beechpark Services also attend applied behaviour analysis schools in the region.

The HSE's role is to assess the health needs of the children which need to be met in order to support their education. The actual provision of that education is the responsibility of the Department of Education and Science. The remit of the HSE is to assess whether additional health supports are needed and to produce reports to that end for the Department of Education and Science.

One could question whether that is the right route to take. Perhaps the health service should not be involved in such assessments. We have been in discussions with the Department of Education and Science about whether it should have sole responsibility for all aspects of this issue. A local health manager has been identified to carry out a national review. Other models of best practice such as multidisciplinary teams and dedicated services are in existence throughout the country. This review will be completed by 2008.

Professor Drumm

I missed Senator Prendergast's question about developmental check-ups.

I asked about the optimum age which is nine months. However, I believe staffing difficultiesmay be the reason children are not being giventhese check-ups until they are two years old. This seems to be happening all around the country. I acknowledge Professor Drumm’s expertise in this area.

Professor Drumm

It is a significant challenge to ensure these developmental checks are undertaken within primary health care as opposed to setting up a separate system. I will return to the Senator with the statistics as to where these checks are falling behind because I suspect it varies in different parts of the country. A waiting time of two years for these checks is a concern, especially if this involves hearing tests. We are beginning to expand the pilot sites for neonatal hearing screening. This will remove many of the important developmental tests out of the primary care area. However, the question raised by the Senator requires investigation. I do not accept that we are unable to deal with the issue of a wait of two years.

That system has almost ceased.

Professor Drumm

I will return to the Senator with a specific response as to how we might improve on it.

I will ask John O'Brien to deal with the questions about the ambulance service, Carrick-on-Suir and the smaller maternity hospitals.

Mr. O’Brien

One of the big issues for the national ambulance strategy concerns a spatial study analysis designed to investigate the adequacy of ambulance service response times to emergency call-outs. We anticipate the spatial analysis study dealing with Carrick-on-Suir will be completed early next year. Based on the completion of that study, we will then look at how and in what manner we need to redirect existing resources to enable improved response times.

The present arrangement is that ambulance services for Carrick-on-Suir operate from the ambulance stations in Clonmel and Waterford. These towns are approximately 15 and 23 miles, respectively, from Carrick-on-Suir. When a call is received, the nearest available ambulance is dispatched to respond immediately. A continuous review is taken of the adequacy of emergency ambulance service demand and response times. We measure response times continuously and it is one of our big performance metrics. Our corporate performance metric aims to reduce response times to levels commensurate with international benchmark provisions and some good work is being done in this area.

The chief ambulance officer in the south east is in the process of reviewing particular needs in south Tipperary and in the Carrick-on-Suir area, in line with recent changes in hospital services there. Any realignment of resources required will be undertaken to achieve greater efficiency in these response times.

We are currently undertaking a review of maternity hospitals in Dublin. The expectation is that this review will make some comment on delivery units of under 1,000 births and that it will take a broader view of the national situation. We expect that review to be completed over the next month or so.

The Dublin maternity hospitals have high volumes of deliveries. The expected rate of deliveries this year is quite significantly increased on other years. I do not understand how the analogy could be drawn between smaller hospitals in the country, unless we are going to make an entire doughnut out of the centre of the country.

Mr. O'Brien might return to Senator Prendergast on the specific question of the smaller hospitals.

Mr. O’Brien

I will do that.

I thank the Minister, Professor Drumm and Mr. O'Brien for a very good overview of where we are at and where we are going. While it is important for us to raise the issues that are of concern to us, it is also important in the interests of patients, who are and must remain the priority that we recognise the good work being done, that has always been done and the improvements that have taken place since the Health Service Executive came into existence. Professor Drumm referred to some of the improvements such as the increased levels of activity, for example, in day surgery. We should recognise this in passing.

In the interests of time, I do not wish to go back over the questions raised, important though they are. Professor Drumm raised the issue of comparative analysis between the different hospitals in terms of productivity and outcome. Perhaps he can elaborate on these findings and on how it is intended to implement best practice in the hospitals that do not measure up and give a timeframe for that?

My other question relates to co-location. It appears there is still much confusion about co-location. My understanding is that it involves locating a private facility on the same campus as a public facility. I do not see any difficulty with that. It is important that we try to keep consultants on the same campus for as long as possible during the day. I do not think anybody would want to be a public patient in Beaumont Hospital, for example, if an emergency were to arise in the afternoon and the consultant was in the Blackrock Clinic, as used to be the case. What is the difference between co-location and what currently exists in the Mater Hospital, St. Vincent's Hospital and Beaumont Hospital, among others?

My other question relates to the provision of a new hospital in the north east. Is there a timeframe for the project and how is it likely to progress?

Most of those questions were addressed to Professor Drumm but I wish to comment on co-location. It is essential for the future that our key clinicians are on-site in public hospitals. It is not satisfactory that some key clinicians in this city work in several different facilities as it presents difficulties for planning and management in hospitals. Issues arise also regarding junior doctors and when they are covered and available to do the rounds with the clinician. All of these issues arise and it is extraordinarily difficult.

A large percentage of consultants in the Dublin area have category two contracts which allow them to work in several different sites. At the centre of the negotiations on the new contract with consultants is to have in place for the future a contract of employment that meets the needs of the public health care system. In future, the private health care system and its stand-alone facilities will have to be capable of employing its own key clinicians and not be as dependent as it is currently on the State's key employees. These are all important matters.

The reality is that a large percentage of our activity in public hospitals relates to private patients. The statistics vary from hospital to hospital, but in the past, of the elective work done on patients, up to 46% of them were private patients. From the hospital's perspective, approximately 20% of beds are ring-fenced for private activity. Clinicians get a fee if there is a private patient in any bed in a hospital other than in an accident and emergency department. These are issues that were the subject of the negotiations. The chairman of the talks made recommendations which have been accepted by the Health Service Executive and were supported by the Government. The key now is to proceed with the recruitment of new consultants on the basis of a new contract of employment. The whole purpose of co-location is to provide increased public capacity in public hospitals.

When we have the preferred health model mentioned by Professor Drumm with more happening at community and primary level and more effective use of our current acute beds, clearly there will be issues around capacity. We need more single rooms and more isolation facilities in our public hospitals. All of these matters will be important in how we organise the acute system in the future. I see co-location as the speediest and most cost effective way of providing increased capacity on the big public hospital sites over the next five years.

Professor Drumm

I thank Deputy O'Hanlon for his comments. He raised the issue of productivity and we can also give him a formal response on the matter. We have our high-level corporate performance indicators of how we provide services across the country. In the past three to four months we have begun to bring together detailed metrics of employment and output levels across individual hospital units and we will next move to community-based units in more detail. As of the beginning of January 2008 those will be available to people.

Initially the plan is that apart from individual facilities' own figures they will be anonymised for up to a year so that people have a chance to understand where they rate and to make any improvements needed. We have done that on the advice of those operating other systems where it has been found that if they are rolled out in public with everybody highlighted, people get quite demoralised and beaten up. Rather than trying to sort out the problem it can have the opposite effect. They show major differences in staffing numbers, for examples nurses per bed, new patients seen per consultant or per physiotherapist varying significantly throughout the system. As we are now involved in and analyse the community services those differences are even greater.

The Deputy suggests there is no point in measuring something unless we use the figures. We have a performance management unit - a decisions support unit - in the organisation. We are working with our managers across the system from the directors down to introduce a culture of performance management into the system so that everybody will have their targets set. Those targets will range from average length of stay to day of surgery admission rates in one hospital versus another. In the future funding will be applied in response to them.

There is a major challenge because we cannot move the system instantaneously. Even though we know that to do the same work up to 20% more nurses are required in one place than another and we know of one accident and emergency unit with twice the number of people as another accident and emergency unit doing the same amount of work, the problem remains that we cannot move people up and down the country on the basis of those types of findings. We need to work with people to bring about the necessary changes. At least the figures will be there and people will be able to see which will bring about change in itself.

The Deputy asked about the difference between the Mater and St. Vincent's. The difference is that we would see the new consultants' contract sorting the issue from our perspective. At the moment consultants can move between the private and public sector without any measure of their activity across the systems. We are perfectly happy once we absolutely know what a consultant does on the public and private side. The chairman of the talks has put out the heads of agreement, if we can call them that, and we have said that we want to see 80% activity on the public side versus 20% on the private side. We do not mind how high that 20% is. They can drive it as high as they want so long as they are driving the 80%. The critical issue is how that is to be measured, which is a challenge we believe can be taken up. If I am asked whether it is a new system that is very different from what people have practised in the past, I would say it is. I ask Mr. O'Brien whether he has any further comment on the matter.

Mr. O’Brien

To avoid any confusion, the Mater and St. Vincent's hospitals, while they co-locate physically adjacent to or on sites very close to public hospitals, they do not fit the co-location model we require for the sorts of reasons Professor Drumm has just set out. We are talking about arrangements between the co-located private and the public hospitals being predicated on project agreements that share significant information and a series of other parameters which do not exist with those hospitals at this stage.

Professor Drumm

We have no way of knowing what the activity is for consultants in those systems at the moment.

We are close to identifying the site for a new hospital in the north east. It has been held in abeyance because of necessary work with our northern brethren to see if would it affect them. We hope to announce the choice of site soon but are waiting for the North-South political interaction to be completed. The build-time will be dependent on capital availability. Once the site is identified, the issue will be the financing of the project.

I welcome the Minister for Health and Children, Professor Drumm and his supporting team.

Last year a "Prime Time" programme on child and adolescent psychiatric services was broadcast. A month ago, a follow-up investigation was broadcast, showing no improvement in the service. We have been conscious for a long time of the need to develop the service. Are there any developments in this area?

How many beds are available for treating people with eating disorders? Many young people and children who have eating disorders are inappropriately placed in adult psychiatric units.

Why did the Health Information and Quality Authority, HIQA, ignore psychiatric hospitals when it was investigating hygiene levels? If it is an issue for the Mental Health Commission, then there is a level of duplication. There are concerns about the state of older psychiatric hospitals, many of which were built during the Famine.

It has been identified that elderly psychiatric patients should not remain in psychiatric hospitals but be moved to continuing care units.

I am sorry to interrupt but Senator White, the Minister needs to listen to the question.

It was determined that many people in psychiatric hospitals would be more appropriately placed in continuing care in public nursing homes.

The home care package is excellent and provides an opportunity to keep the elderly out of long-stay care and hospitals, making savings in the health budget. In Limerick, however, a ceiling has been put on the scheme due to financial constraints. It is bad financial management of public funds if the elderly continue to go into continuing care when the home care package could be used. Files marked high priority are sitting on desks in Limerick but due to the financial constraints, nothing can be done.

In June last, the Minister replied to a parliamentary question on renal facilities in Limerick. At that stage, it was recommended by the Irish Kidney Association that the mobile dialysis unit in Tullamore, County Offaly, could become available at the end of July. Have there been any developments on this issue?

Most of the questions on mental health services are for the HSE. The Mental Health Commission has responsibility for the inspection of mental health facilities. HIQA has responsibility in areas where there used to be no checks. We do not know how it will evolve over time.

On Monday last, I had a meeting with the Irish Kidney Association, which the HSE attended. The renal facility for Limerick will be operational from next September. There are issues which the HSE might like to deal with regarding the mobile dialysis unit in Tullamore. I understand it is no longer suitable for transfer to Limerick. My memory of the meeting on Monday was that it is no longer intended to move the mobile facility. It is not yet fully operational but 11 of the 18 bays for dialysis machinery are operational. The HSE will recruit staff early next year to open the remaining facility in Tullamore. I am also advised that planning permission will be required. By the time that happens the unit in Limerick will be available.

Planning permission has been refused. It looks as if the HSE did not discuss--

Planning permission for the permanent unit has been refused because it was in an industrial environment.

Surely discussions took place with Limerick County Council before that application.

A private provider and the HSE are involved in this case. I am not involved with the planning authority. Perhaps Mr. O'Brien can comment on that but, as I understand it, the private sector unit from which the HSE will procure services for people from the catchment area will be available next September.

Professor Drumm

I will ask Ms McGuinness to speak about child and adolescent psychiatry and some other issues.

Ms McGuinness

We cannot deal here with the cases shown in the "Prime Time" programme a few weeks ago but they were not properly represented. There is a full programme in place to provide 12 additional beds for child and adolescent psychiatry services for 2008, making a total of 30 by the end of the year. There will be four additional beds in St. Ann's in Galway and six in St. Vincent's in Fairview, with a capital timeframe for delivery in March 2008. There are six beds in Warrenstown where the service will move from five to seven days a week. Eight additional beds will be provided at St. Stephen's in Cork, by September-October 2008. In tandem with that we will put in place a fast-tracking mechanism to ensure that the staff will be available as soon as possible to cover these beds and that appropriate training has been provided.

Construction will commence in January 2008 of a new 20-bed inpatient unit with a completion date of spring 2009. That will replace the eight interim beds in St. Stephen's in Cork. In Galway, planning permission is pending for a unit with 20 additional beds. We hope to commence construction of that in spring 2008 with a completion date in 2009. These are capital completion dates which may move out if adjustments are required.

In addition to the 30 beds for child and adolescent psychiatry, we have prioritised the addition of eight teams for 2008, two for each area - south, west, Dublin mid-Leinster and Dublin north east. That includes a prioritised element for eating disorders. Child and adolescent psychiatry is one of our priorities for the end of 2007 and 2008. A consultant psychiatrist is working with us to ensure that we roll out best practice. There are some centres of excellence with advanced nurse practitioners and that is the model we hope to roll out in 2008 with targets.

We have identified nine key priorities for 2008 in respect of the inappropriate placement of elderly psychiatric services and the move to the community. Some services have already been moved out. The holistic framework showing where the moves have been made for each area and what is appropriate is not available. However, significant inroads have been made in that plan. We will have a full comprehensive programme for the roll-out of that service in 2008.

Home care packages are more financially efficient and elderly people prefer to be at home. At present 4.6% of elderly people are in long-term care beds. Currently 4.6% of elderly people are in long-term care beds and our wish, which is reflected by the Minister and the Health Service Executive is for people to be appropriately cared for in their homes through home care packages. To date some 5,300 new people have benefitted from home care packages in 2007 and by the end of the year a total of 10,000 additional home care packages will be in place.

The cost factor is an issue but the main problem is the complexity of home care packages required. Some people who are occupying beds need more than nursing care and may require occupational therapy and so on. We have a plan in place to see that over 2008, 250 additional therapists are made available to enhance home care packages.

Professor Drumm

The issue of eating disorders will not be resolved entirely by the provision of these children's beds. I have a lot of experience in treating eating disorders in young people and they often must be kept in an acute facility because they have been damaged by wasting. This is a hard balance to strike and it must be seen in the context of the development of the children's hospital structure and its links up and down the country. We must, finally, try to ensure that these young people are treated in their communities as much as possible because the medical model of treating eating disorders has not been a great success. We must be careful not to impose a model that we have simply decided is right. We must work with people to decide on the right model because, while these beds will be helpful, they will not completely resolve the issue.

Mr. O'Brien may wish to comment on renal dialysis and Limerick.

Mr. O’Brien

I do not have much more to say than the Minister has already said. I will add that the HSE sees renal dialysis as one of the demand-led requirements we must respond to in an immediate and effective way. We have worked closely with the Irish Kidney Association in moving this forward, as the Minister suggested, and the tendering process for the satellite unit in Limerick is now complete. A company has been selected and, as the Minister said, it is anticipated that the service will be in position in the third quarter of 2008.

There were complications relating to moving the unit from Tullamore but I do not have the details to hand. I will pass them on to the committee later and will supply a rationale as to why it could not move. There were complexities that prohibited us from doing so.

I welcome the Minister, Deputy Harney, Professor Drumm and their teams and thank them for the presentation.

I support Deputy Neville's comments on eating disorders and acknowledge Professor Drumm's insight on the subject given his professional background. I take it that a dedicated unit in the new children's hospital may be considered because eating disorders are becoming a greater problem, particularly among young boys who have never displayed eating disorders before but are now presenting as young as seven, eight and nine years of age.

Great work is being done in St. George's Hospital in London where a young professor heads a dedicated unit and I have information on it that I will pass on to the Minister. She might examine this information because the unit in London is working very well.

Many of my questions have already been asked so the witnesses will be glad to hear that I will be brief. The north west will probably have a mobile BreastCheck unit, and we will be grateful for that, but can the Minister indicate as clearly as possible when it can be expected? Regarding the common contract for consultants, where do the talks with the Irish Medical Organisation and the Irish Hospital Consultants Association stand? Where are we with regard to the recruitment of the new consultants that are so badly needed?

Subjects under discussion this morning have been very topical and urgent. When the Minister attended a meeting of the last committee in December 2005, I spoke to her about a particular delegation we had met. All of the groups that came before the committee during the last term were impressive, but I was particularly affected by the Post-Polio Support Group. This organisation has some 750 members and another 200 to 300 members outside the group. These are middle aged to elderly people who are suffering from post-polio syndrome. I asked the Minister to consider including such persons in the long-term illness scheme. The Minister told me this scheme had not been reviewed for 30 years and I understand that remains the case.

Only 40% of the 750 members of this group have medical cards and the remainder find it difficult to make ends meet, given their age and the demands of coping with medical and living expenses. Will the Minister consider a special arrangement to accommodate their needs? The numbers involved will decline rather than increase in the future. There should be a special allowance for people suffering from polio from an early age and those diagnosed with post-polio syndrome.

I would be delighted to receive any information the Senator has on facilities in the United Kingdom. However, it would be more appropriate for Professor Drumm and his team to deal with that, particularly in the context of the planning of the new children's hospital.

The BreastCheck mobile units have been acquired. I have informed the national screening service that it must make the decision as to where they should initially be deployed. It is not appropriate that I should decide which county comes first. The service started in the west, in Roscommon, and has now extended into Galway. Staff are being recruited to man the units. I have told the management of the screening service to bear in mind the most peripheral regions when the scheme is being rolled out.

I am familiar with the Post-Polio Support Group. There have been no additions to the illnesses covered under the long-term illness scheme since 1975. I was not even a Member of the Oireachtas then and I have been here for 30 years. The reason for this is cost. The Department is currently undertaking a review of eligibility for the various health benefits. This is a major legislative undertaking. As part of this process, I intend to discuss with the HSE how we can best support those in greatest need. The long-term illness card covers the cost of medication but no one, irrespective of circumstances, pays more than €85 per month for medicine. There is a case to be made that this review of eligibility should incorporate a rebalancing between those who require medication only occasionally, perhaps once or twice a year, and those who need it every month.

We are also reviewing the medical card scheme and trying to obtain data on who is currently in receipt of a medical card. Some 200,000 additional people in the last two years have secured access to their general practitioner free of charge. Of these, some 75,000 are in receipt of the doctor-only card, while the remaining 120,000 received full medical cards. This is not inconsiderable given our increased prosperity and the associated rise in incomes. All of this must be subject to the analysis we are conducting in conjunction with the HSE.

I understand there are between 3,000 and 4,000 people with post-polio symptoms, which can be quite severe. I do not say this lightly, because I speak to so many groups and it is difficult to distinguish one from another, but this is a group that should receive particular consideration in the context of the eligibility review.

Professor Drumm

Services for people with eating disorders must be considered in the context of acute hospital development. A superb service is in place under a psychologist, Dr. Doherty, in Crumlin hospital. There is also a good service at the hospital in Tallaght. These services are part of the acute wards. The service is not only for eating disorders but also for other demanding kids and child psychiatry issues. That will be a central development in the new hospital which will provide much outreach for protocols across the country. The type of unit being spoken about in St. George's Hospital must be replicated. We have some very good personnel but we do not have the unit and some very skilled personnel. We fully accept that.

The issue of consultant contracts was also raised. It is fair to say they have progressed fairly slowly but we are hoping to bring them towards a conclusion over the next few weeks. My colleague, Mr. John O'Brien, attended the talks each day.

Mr. O’Brien

The report produced by the chairman of the talks, Mark Connaughton, is one which we have adopted and accepted fully. It forms the basis on which we are trying to bring the talks to a conclusion at this stage. There are still a number of issues that need to be resolved, with quite a number unlikely to create a difficulty in finalising a contract. There are also four or five very significant matters that still need to be resolved and we are working with them on a continuous basis through weekly meetings to try to reach a conclusion.

Will the HSE go ahead with advertising while awaiting the outcome of the talks or does that have to be held back? It is a shame the way the issues have been dragged out as we are waiting for new consultants but cannot get them in.

We are not going to wait forever. These talks have been given a considerable amount of time by the HSE, the Department and others involved in the negotiations. They even precede my appointment as Minister for Health and Children in some form.

The health system badly needs new consultants on a new contract as the current contract is unsatisfactory. No objective person in Ireland or overseas would subscribe to the current contract as a way of employing more consultants. We are now depending in many cases on locums where consultants are retiring. Christmas will be over for two days five weeks from now, and that is the kind of timeframe the HSE and Department are discussing in terms of bringing finality to the talks.

There have been stumbling blocks and I have mentioned in the Dáil that one is the access to private practice. I spoke earlier about equity of access and all those issues are very important. We have accepted the basis on which the independent chairman has made recommendations in good faith, as did the HSE. A number of issues required further dialogue and clarification but we have put much time into the issue. I compliment our team and the team from the representative bodies on the considerable amount of time put into the process.

There comes a time in every set of negotiations for them to end. That time is certainly dawning.

I tabled two questions and I will stick specifically to those matters as many of my colleagues still have questions. My first question is for the Minister and Professor Drumm and concerns the centres of excellence for cancer care. My question on outreach facilities has been answered in part and I should mention that the centre of excellence at UCHG and Portiuncula Hospital in Ballinasloe did 1,000 mammogram X-rays last year.

With the significant problems of accommodation, traffic and issues associated with the other centres of excellence, is it technologically possible for women to have X-rays taken at Portiuncula Hospital in Ballinasloe and have the image transmitted to the centre of excellence 25 miles away to be read by appropriate consultants, as if the women were in that hospital? I cannot make that any clearer. Is that possible and will it happen?

Today we have listened to a wide-ranging debate about the proposals that will be implemented and for all our sakes we hope the Minister and the HSE will succeed.

Why do so many people tell me they are afraid to get sick because their condition may worsen in hospital? I am talking about cleanliness in hospitals. Why, with all the technology and performance related programmes, is it not possible for hospitals to be clean? What is the problem? Many people want to know the answer to those questions.

I am familiar with Portiuncula, I was born there more years ago than I care to remember.

They are still talking about it.

Was I causing trouble even then? I had the pleasure of visiting the old labour ward a year ago and it is now a consultant's consulting room. It was a very small place 50 years ago.

Clearly some things can be done through outreach facilities. Diagnosis is crucial in cancer treatment, particularly breast cancer. It will be a matter for Professor Keane to decide what happens on an outreach basis and what will happen at the centre, I am not qualified to make that decision. Where services can be provided safely at local hospitals, that will be the preference.

I am not talking about treatment.

The word "specialist" is more appropriate than "excellence" because there are excellent clinicians providing excellent services in small places. Every hospital and GP facility should be a centre of excellence, it is associated with more than large centres. We are talking about specialist centres where specialists work together as a team. A service dependent on a single individual for its quality raises issues because quality and volume are connected. Surgery will take place in the specialist centre but the appropriate diagnosis is important. This will be a matter for Professor Keane to resolve as he rolls out the programme starting in January.

Professor Drumm

That is the case. The problem with mammograms is the technique. The way the mammogram is done and the patient is positioned is as important as the machine. That is why BreastCheck was rolled out the way it was, with absolute focus on the same people doing the same thing every day. It remains to be seen if confidence is established that doing that number of mammograms is acceptable to the programme locally but it will be worked out.

On the issue of whether people must come for mammograms to Galway and the overrun on services, there was a similar challenge in the north east. We want to move work from Galway to Portiuncula if it does not need to be done in Galway. A considerable amount of the work being done on patients from Ballinasloe in Galway could be done on a day case basis in Portiuncula. We are doing a lot of day surgery in Dr. O'Hanlon's area in Monaghan General Hospital that would not have happened historically. Dundalk hospital, which was doing very good work historically, is now a tremendous centre. It has wiped out its waiting lists for elective surgery in the north east by bringing the work to it.

We must look at that rebalancing of work because there is great potential for work to be done in places like Portiuncula. We should not only question whether mammograms can be done there, but also look at the overloading of work that does not need to be done for patients in Galway when it could be done in Ballinasloe. That is a major component of our approach to the transformation programme.

As to people being afraid to get sick, I was criticised for saying it when I first came here, but there are very significant risks in hospitals. I may have mentioned at that stage that I believed clostridium difficile, although it was not well known at the time, to be a much greater challenge to our hospital systems than MRSA . Such challenges are present across most central European countries, the British Isles and Ireland. They are massive and essentially have been driven by antibiotic use. We now have an extremely high rate of resistance. While we talk about how well the northern European countries perform in controlling MRSA, I reiterate they do not have MRSA because of their use of antibiotics. Consequently they will never have a major problem provided they maintain that control.

We must now prevent it from spreading and the Deputy is correct to highlight the importance of the issue of hygiene. The critical issue in this regard pertains to hand washing. While we must aspire to keeping hospitals clean for many reasons and must get this right, there is some evidence that it will not necessarily have a huge effect on MRSA. However, I refer to how hospital workers perform when moving between patients. For instance, I want to see notices displayed that encourage patients to ask hospital workers whether the latter have washed their hands before examining the former. Patients would be empowered to protect themselves as well because it is absolutely critical to get this right.

On the hygiene audit, while we are absolutely delighted that the Health Information and Quality Authority, HIQA, is performing it, I must clarify that the authority is using a different method to do so than was used before. For instance, in Portiuncula Hospital, the hospital manager, Mrs. Brigetta McHugh and her staff whom I met in recent days, were extremely unhappy about the fact that they had slipped suddenly. Their score for hand washing and hygiene is very good, However, they fell down on the paperwork end, that is, the corporate measurement and structures they have in place to ensure delivery of optimal hygiene. They felt somewhat demoralised when at a practical level, they had done all the right things.

They had done so well.

Professor Drumm

They did really well. These people were almost in tears when I met them in the west last week. They had done many things well. While I do not mean to be critical as we must live with it, the scoring system did not identify the practical things they were doing very well. It identified what is perhaps more my responsibility, namely, the corporate matters in terms of ticking the boxes and filling the forms that are required to back up the entire structure.

The hospital is clean.

Professor Drumm

Absolutely. I take this opportunity to emphasise to the people on the ground in the hospital system, that as one can see when one breaks out the figures from the HIQA report, they have clearly shown dramatic improvements in recent years. I would hate them to become demoralised by a matter that essentially is for the HSE to get right at the hospital corporate level locally. While we will focus on this issue, they have done many things correctly and I reassure them that we acknowledge this. To be fair, while HIQA also identified this, it did not necessarily come out in the press statements.

I welcome both the Minister and Professor Drumm before the joint committee and thank them for their time. Many of the issues raised are similar to those I had wished to raise. I second the proposal by Senator Feeney regarding post-polio syndrome and welcome the Minister's comments regarding its addition to the long-term illness scheme. This would be very welcome.

In respect of the pharmacies, I am particularly concerned about my constituency, which is rural in nature. It contains a distribution outlet for United Drug that employs 100 people. Many of its rural pharmacies have ratios between General Medical Service and private patients of 90:10 or, in some areas, 80:20. The implementation of the decision on 1 December would have extremely serious consequences. People have lost their jobs already. This is factual and I have written proof of it. I have also seen copies of some of the pharmacies' accounts. In the presentation made last week, the officials from the HSE and the Department stated they had seen no concrete evidence that any pharmacy would close down as a result of this decision. Such concrete evidence is available in my constituency. Professor Drumm stated this morning that he has come close to a solution on independent negotiations, which I welcome. Would it be possible to defer the implementation of the decision on 1 December, pending such negotiations taking place?

My second question relates to BreastCheck. I have spoken to officials with responsibility for the national cancer strategy in respect of the two mobile units that I am informed is due to be rolled out early next year. What does early next year mean? Obviously, BreastCheck has not yet been rolled out to County Mayo so this is a topical matter in the county. When exactly will it happen next year? I welcome the extension of the service to women aged 69. It brings Ireland into line with other European countries. I understand the decision was made to comply with EU guidelines on the service being made available to women of that age group.

The most important question I wish to ask relates to the national cancer strategy and the work of Professor Tom Keane. I am delighted Professor Keane is in Ireland and has started his work. We wish him good luck in his job, and I hope we will be equally happy when he leaves.

The Minister made the point that we must focus on excellence and, in particular, the issue of volume and excellence running in tandem. I wholeheartedly agree. At no stage would I endorse or promote a service to the people of Mayo or of the west that I would not be happy to use myself or that would be substandard to a service that was available in, for example, Galway or any other centre of excellence. To that end I have always maintained, even to the consultants in Mayo, that it all depends on whether the service reaches the level of excellence that is required.

Professor Keane is meeting with the consultants in Galway today. I keep a close eye on his movements because I am particularly anxious that he would visit all the hospitals that currently offer breast cancer services and that he speaks with all the stakeholders, including the consultants working in these hospitals. While he may have been party to the decision to approve eight centres of excellence, the key issue is how one defines a centre of excellence. I am quite happy that Galway should be the centre of excellence in the west but the service at Mayo General Hospital could be part of that centre of excellence. I explored this idea last week at the meeting about a managed cancer network for the west. The cancer experts in the west of Ireland, including those in the centre of excellence in Galway, believe that the best way to roll out a service in the west is through a managed cancer network which Professor Keane would be in a position to endorse. We would be happy if Professor Keane considered that and the service in existence at present.

The service has improved in leaps and bounds since Professor Niall O'Higgins's report in 2001 - an excellent report that I read in detail - particularly in Mayo General Hospital. In fact, if the service was the same as it was in 2000, I probably would not put forward this argument. It has improved greatly in seven years, with a very significant amount of connectivity between the hospitals in Mayo and Galway, and with consultants even participating--

Deputy Flynn has only half a minute left.

That is fine. I am concerned about the accuracy of the information. Two weeks ago in the Dáil, the Minister referred to figures for the number of new cancer cases in Mayo and I queried them. I am concerned that the information and figures from the cancer registry, which I am quoting, are accurate. That is very relevant in terms of whether the service works in Mayo. I am seeking reassurance, first, that Professor Keane will meet the stakeholders in Mayo General Hospital and visit the hospital in Castlebar and, second, that a proper audit is carried out of the service that currently exists as to whether it measures up in terms of excellence.

Professor Drumm is leaving at 12 noon but I presume other representatives will stay to answer questions. Written questions were submitted as well, so if members do not get an opportunity to speak, I assume they will receive answers to those questions.

With regard to the mobile units, the service has been rolled out in the west. Mammograms have been taken by a mobile unit in Roscommon. They were dealt with in Dublin because the centre in Galway was not functioning at that point. Letters have been sent to Galway patients and they will be screened over the next few weeks. The treatments will be provided in January. It is a matter for the national screening board to decide what counties will be next but I have asked it to bear peripheral regions in mind when making its decisions, particularly regarding mobile units.

I prefer to use the phrase "specialist centres" rather than "centres of excellence". Deputy Flynn is correct in stating that things have evolved since the first report from Professor Niall O'Higgins and the evidence has evolved as well. In his first report, he suggested that a unit should have 100 new cases a year to qualify as a specialist unit. That has now changed to 150 cases a year. In the 200 report, Professor O'Higgins also states: "Grouping a number of hospitals together into a "virtual Breast Unit" would not achieve a functioning multidisciplinary team." That would seem to rule out Deputy Flynn's idea. I am impressed--

That is actually from the 2000 report.

I have that report here and I also read that line, but the point is that things have evolved since then.

The Minister should come back to the questions.

The Deputy is obviously keeping herself informed of Professor Keane's movements. He will meet consultants from Galway but he will actually meet them in Dublin. Over the course of several meetings I have had with Professor Keane I have found that he likes to engage with and talk to people. He wants to have discussions with the clinical community in Ireland, not just in the specialist centres but in the centres in which services are already being provided. We have excellent clinicians, including in Mayo General Hospital in Castlebar and Mr. O'Hanrahan at Sligo General Hospital. There are excellent people working in places that have not been chosen as centres and Professor Keane wants to enter into dialogue with those clinicians concerning the manner in which he intends to implement the cancer control programme.

Professor Drumm

The challenges for pharmacies in some rural areas are certainly different. The challenge for wholesalers is a separate issue. I am not even clear on why we were ever involved in the wholesale issue. I am not sure why manufacturers and retailers did not sort this out. I am constantly perplexed as to what we ever had to do with wholesaling. We are perfectly entitled to derive the best value for money that we can from that cost. In reality, one could claim that we should go to tender for wholesaling if necessary. However, I suggest it is important that we reach an agreement with the retailers, especially in these areas. What is currently funded by GMS on medical cards is a loss leader for them. That must be dealt with. They agree with us that there must be a different method of remuneration. We must come up with a reasonable way of doing that.

In the matter of a deferral, it will be challenging because we have outlined a saving of approximately €100 million - about €8 million a month - due to this agreement. That is written into our budgets and into the money forwarded to us by the Department of Finance. Any deferral will therefore end up coming out of patient services. It will be an €8 million charge against patient services each month.

I appreciate that, but one could argue that patient services will also be jeopardised as a result of pharmacies' closing down.

Professor Drumm

With regard to the number that will close down, the Deputy says she can identify some and perhaps that is true, but we have seen extraordinary amounts of money change hands for pharmacies and extraordinary amounts paid for pharmacies to access units in general practices. The funds are quite astronomical. The issue of pharmacies' closing down is a challenge. We will have to deal with it, if it arises.

I am not saying any of this is off. I will go no further than to say that we would prefer to reach an agreement and that we are close to an agreement at this point. This would deal with the issues that have been raised. However, if we agree to anything with an associated cost, it will definitely be a charge against patient services.

Perhaps Mr. O'Brien would give a further comment to the Minister on surgical services in Castlebar.

Mr. O’Brien

To pick up on one of the Minister's points to do with centres of excellence, I agree that it creates a sense that certain services are not excellent, although they can be, and they may be delivered by excellent people. Professor Donal Hollywood described the centres in a better way when he called them "comprehensive cancer centres" although, again, not all of them will be comprehensive.

As Professor Drumm indicated, the issue is one of getting a critical mass of capability built around patient services in these areas. This is not just a matter of doctors and nurses, but would include professions such as medical physics scientists, who contribute significantly and who can contribute probably as much to cancer care as doctors and nurses. It really is a matter of trying to create that critical mass.

I referred previously to the fact that my understanding of Professor Keane's position is that cancer networks are what he is talking about doing. The big issue is what is appropriate locally and what is appropriate centrally. He will take the committee down that road. As the Minister stated, it would be Professor Keane's intention to engage broadly and widely. He sees communications in the broadest sense of engaging with all the workforce in health who are involved in cancer services right across the spectrum, and I would expect he will do that.

Professor Drumm

I apologise for having to leave. There is nothing I can do about it. I ask that Mr. Liam Woods, who is our financial director, might sit in for me and co-ordinate how we respond to further questions.

I was not present for most of the contributions from the Minister and Professor Drumm because I was chairing the Committee of Public Accounts. I did not hear some of the previous questions posed and if I duplicate, I ask the Chairman to tell me.

On the comments made about co-location, it is puzzling that some of the justification for the co-location policy centres around the presence of consultants on campus. It is hard to understand why we are pressing ahead so quickly with the co-location policy while at the same time there is uncertainty about the common contract negotiations.

Mention was made at this meeting on a number of occasions of the private-public ratio of 20:80. It is my understanding that this ratio exists in the present contract but has never been implemented. As a member of a health board down through the years, my efforts to get information on the level of public and private practice on a consultant by consultant basis was opposed by management of the health board. What is the level of public and private activity and is it monitored on a consultant by consultant basis? Are those figures available? When I sought them, I was refused by senior health board management. I sought them under the Freedom of Information Act and was refused. We do not really know on what we are basing our arguments. If that information could be made available, it would help us see the problem and how it can be dealt with.

The Minister spoke about the principle of equity of access to service and to the utilisation of beds in acute hospitals. How can the Minister state that she is striving towards and achieving equity of access when there is still the attitude that there is a quick fix solution for private patients in public hospitals but not for public patients? My most recent evidence relates to cancer services, where a lady was referred for a mammogram by her general practitioner three weeks ago and was told by the South Infirmary Victoria University Hospital in Cork that she would have to wait until May 2009. It was not an urgent request, although we will not know how urgent it is until the mammogram is taken. The general practitioner did not request it for fun. How can there be equity of access if a person who can pay €120 for a mammogram can get it done tomorrow? How can we stand over the principle of equity of access when that continues to happen in our cancer services?

On the use of acute beds, at the plenary session with Professor Drumm in the Dáil restaurant I asked about the rehabilitation centre promised for Cork and was told, quite blatantly, that a commitment had not been given by anyone or any Department and that it was not in any programme. I did not imagine that, and it is one of the questions I put. To where did the regional rehabilitation centre earmarked for Cork disappear? I was told there was a 100-bed development in Dún Laoghaire and that there would be further developments in Beaumont but I did not imagine the promise made by the former Minister, Deputy Martin, prior to the 2002 election about a regional centre to be located at St. Mary's Orthopaedic Hospital in Cork.

Another issue I raised on the previous occasion is the multi-million euro unit at the Mercy University Hospital in Cork. It is all about the principle of parallel planning between capital development and current spending. The unit was built but has been idle for almost 12 months. We are told problems have arisen to do with manpower requirements. Why were those issues not thrashed out before the building was built? It is a scandal that such units lie idle. When it comes to them being opened we are told problems have arisen.

My last point concerns the National Treatment Purchase Fund. As a former member of a health board I believe part of the National Treatment Purchase Fund is a scam because people are doing work under the National Treatment Purchase Fund who should do it under their common contract. What controls are in place in those situations?

Deputy Allen seems to believe the current contract of employment for consultants is appropriate and so what about the 80:20% mix. In some hospitals it is almost a 50:50 public private mix. I mentioned one hospital earlier where last year 46% of its elective work was for private patients even though it bears no relationship with the catchment or with activity in accident and emergency and so on. The current contract is very unsatisfactory.

The purpose of the co-location model was to decant from the public hospital funded by taxpayers, with all the staff paid by for by taxpayers, into a privately provided facility and to have it co-located with the public hospital to keep the consultants on-site. I am aware many people favour the concept of private provision and tax breaks for private provision but they do not favour them being close to the public hospital. They favour them being a few miles away; I do not understand that. The purpose of co-location is to get more capacity into our large public hospitals. This was a policy initiative we initiated at the Department of Health and Children. Hospitals were free to either apply or not apply for co-location. They were not forced to go down the co-location route. As the Deputy is aware, a large number of hospitals expressed an interest and a determination was made regarding six of them.

Among the issues with the current contract is that we do not have doctors working as part of teams with clinical directors. That happens in many hospitals but this is not part of the contract, and 80:20 is not explicit in the current contract. What we are trying to move to, in the context of the negotiations, is an 80:20 model by volume rather than by beds. I agree 20% of beds in our public hospitals are designated private beds but the consultant gets a fee for every patient who occupies any bed if he or she has private health insurance. Other than in accident and emergency, a consultant gets a fee for a patient once the patient has private health insurance, regardless of which bed the patient occupies.

Central to the new contract is the question of how outpatient services in public hospitals are managed. Those appointments must be made by hospitals on a non-preferential basis. There can be no question of private practice in public outpatient clinics. Services associated with accident and emergency departments cannot have private fees connected to them. Even if one has health insurance, those services must be accessed on the basis of equality. It is an emergency service, after all.

As Professor Drumm stated, we are not trying to stop the 80:20 contract. There will be a full-time public contract offering an 80:20 mix. We are not trying to reduce the number of private patients seen. Rather, if a consultant wants to see one private patient, he or she must see four public patients. It is a good model which will deliver greater equity of access to public patients than is currently the case.

I will allow the delegates from the HSE to deal with the delay in respect of mammograms. That people are told by clinicians or people acting on behalf of clinicians that they can have mammograms next week in public hospitals funded by taxpayers if they can afford to pay, whereas those who cannot afford to pay--

I did not say patients could have them in public hospitals. I stated that they could have them next week. I did not mention public hospitals.

In many cases, it is through public hospitals. The late Susie Long attended a public hospital and was told that, had she had private health insurance, she could have been seen the next week. As she did not have private health insurance, she went on a list. The issue of how patients access hospitals is central to the new consultants' contract of employment.

The purpose of the establishment of the National Treatment Purchase Fund was to buy capacity in the private sector for those longest on the waiting list. Some 90% of bought capacity is in our private sector while approximately 10% of procedures are carried out abroad, mainly in Northern Ireland and some in the UK. Some 75,000 patients have been treated to date and there is considerable satisfaction with the system. It is a universal insurer. Sometimes, people opt to stay with their clinicians of choice and to remain on waiting lists wherever the specialties or hospitals are. However, the majority of the people contacted - they are entitled to initiate contact after three months - are availing of the NTPF's services. Consultant commitment is for 11 sessions. Instead of making patients wait longer, I would prefer to get consultants who have time to do work through the NTPF, but it is not part of their commitment under the contract.

The Deputy stated that there is no certainty of a new contract. While there is no certainty that the representative organisations will agree, it has always been our desire to have an agreed contract. For this reason, we entered into discussions. However, there will be a new contract of employment for new consultants. I hope that it can be on the basis of an agreement. The weeks leading up to Christmas will determine whether we can reach agreement on the new contract. We cannot delay the recruitment process any longer.

I made no commitment to rehabilitation facilities at Cork.

The Minister's predecessor did.

There is a proposal in respect of Cork, but it has never been part of any capital plan of which I am aware. Perhaps the delegates from the HSE will comment.

Mr. Liam Woods

As the Minister stated, the public-private mix varies, but the average is 25:75. I will ask Mr. John O'Brien to address a number of hospital-related points and Ms Laverne McGuinness to address the rehabilitation issue.

Mr. O’Brien

Regarding the co-location and 80:20 issues, we are including measurable validation, which is fundamental to our negotiations, in the new consultants' contract. In terms of the public-private mix, we consider measurable validation to be essential and we would not move from that position. We are working on getting visibility and transparency and clear metrics on that issue as part of the consultant contract negotiations.

On the issue of equity of access, so that there is no confusion around the matter of mammography in the South Infirmary Hospital, I am advised that a patient who is presenting with a clinical suspicion of breast malignancy is normally seen on the same working day in effect, or at most within five working days, regardless of ability to pay.

I have a letter from the South Infirmary Hospital from May 2005, which states--

Mr. O’Brien

As I said they stratify and decide which cases are urgent and which are not.

I am sorry to interrupt, but surely if a GP refers a woman--

The Deputy has made the point that if a GP refers a patient, is that not because he or she has a clinical concern?

Mr. O’Brien

It is emphasised again that much more information is provided, and should be provided, in the letter of referral from the GP. As a GP, Deputy Reilly would be familiar with this situation. That is an issue we emphasise with general practitioners.

Is it acceptable that a woman who has been referred for a mammogram has to endure that anxiety for 17 or 18 months?

The Deputy has made that point very well.

Mr. O’Brien

In terms of prioritising public or private patients coming to radiology departments on an outpatient basis in the public system, as part of the consultant contract negotiations we are talking about a common waiting list - access on the basis solely of need - with need being the only criterion used. We are putting in place checks and balances around checking waiting lists to validate that position.

In response to the Deputy's point on accident and emergency services in the Mercy Hospital, Professor Drumm addressed that point in the most recent information session with Members of the Oireachtas. It has been indicated to me that the unit is ready to open, and can open with existing staffing levels. The issue is that every time we produce a new facility, there is some sort of notion that it must come with a plethora of additional people. In this instance, we are saying that it is just not acceptable that we do not open this spanking new facility, given the conditions under which people are held in the old Mercy Hospital. When they move, it will not increase the number of patients they will see. It is expected they will see the same number of patients. They have been working with my network manager in the south to come up with means of doing that and making sure that the facility opens as readily as is possible.

I have other members who have to go, and I have to facilitate them.

I have waited for two hours. Why were all the difficulties not thrashed out? In other words why was there no correlation between capital spending and revenue spending?

Mr. O’Brien

There is again a notion that if we build something, this generates a big demand for additional staff and an extensive uplift in staffing numbers does not necessarily correlate. That is the point I have been trying to make and there is no reason this unit should not open with existing staffing levels.

On rehabilitation centres, the Deputy is correct that the former Southern Health Board produced proposals for an acute unit on the site of St. Mary's, the orthopaedic unit. The board also produced a document dealing with pathways to independence, mapping the direction for future services in the south. Both those documents were submitted to the Department of Health and Children as part of the inputs to the development of an action plan for the development of rehabilitation services in Ireland.

The primary decision in this area has been to develop the rehabilitation hospital in Dún Laoghaire. The next level of this, as we understand it, would be an examination of the WinGEMS in terms of what would be required to support it in the regions. We believe that the documentation and work done in Cork in respect of this would put them in a good position when that arises.

When the Minister announces a project, is it a valid project or a political announcement?

Deputy Allen has made his point.

I will do my best not to be awkward. I compliment the Vice Chairman on the manner in which she has conducted the meeting. I wish to be associated with the welcome extended to the Minister, her staff and the team from the HSE.

I would have told Professor Drumm had he been here that I believe these type of meetings are worthwhile. Listening to the discussion this morning it is clear many of us have local issues to raise. I would have stressed to Professor Drumm, as I have done previously, that while I have no real complaint in respect of contact with local staff, I believe many of the issues raised here could be addressed at local meetings. Perhaps Professor Drumm's colleagues will pass on to him the message that the HSE needs to examine this possibility. I hope however that Adrian Charles in Tallaght will not be told that I was complaining about him because I am not doing so.

He obviously speaks to the Deputy regularly.

He does. The Minister has been kind enough on a number of occasions to support my call for GP services in Fettercairn, Tallaght, an area she knows well. While work is progressing on the health centre in Millbrook Lawns I would welcome if the development was expedited. Issues such as the provision of maternity services and an out-of-hours GP service for Tallaght need to be addressed. I support what my colleagues had to say about home help packages.

I wish to outline to the HSE that I was concerned to discover yesterday that despite assurances I received, a suicide nurse has not yet been appointed to Tallaght Hospital, an issue identified by me some time ago. While I do not wish to be emotive on this issue, a recent suicide in Tallaght Hospital upset the community. A commitment was given that such a service, which exists in other hospitals in Dublin, would be put in place but this has not happened. I would be grateful if a member of the HSE could explain the position in this regard. Teen-Line Ireland, based in Tallaght, was anxious that I raise this issue today.

I have written down questions in respect of many issues that I hoped to raise but they have been raised by some of my colleagues. Perhaps I could receive written replies to some of my questions. I wish to raise, as I always do at meetings such as this, the issue of children's services in Tallaght Hospital which are often inaccessible. The Minister is aware of my concerns about the provision of cancer services in Tallaght.

Many of my colleagues have raised issues in respect of pharmacy services in their local areas. I live in Tallaght. The Minister, who also represented the area effectively, will know that pharmacists have set up businesses against the odds in areas such as Fettercairn, Jobstown and Killinarden. While this has been good for the community, the pharmacists are under very significant pressure. I do not wish to upset the HSE or Mr. Woods, but I received a letter this morning from a pharmacist stating that the HSE is an out of control, ill-thought out quango which will damage the country irreversibly. I read in the Tallaght Echo the other day that a nurse from Tallaght Hospital had attended a socialist meeting and had stated that the public should pick on the political system and the Government rather than the HSE. I am not a sensitive politician but we need to know the nature of the relationship between public representatives and the HSE.

The impression being created, not only in Tallaght but also in other districts, is that people are wasting their time when they contact their local Deputy to get him or her to raise an issue with the HSE. Four busloads of people from Sligo came to Leinster House yesterday to make a point about cancer services. I went outside to meet them. If they had come from Tallaght, cars on the streets of Dublin would be backed up to the Naas Road. The HSE needs to tell us what its role is. How seriously does it take what we say? It is an important matter. I hope somebody will take a note of all the points I have raised. I will continue to raise such issues of concern to me.

I am well aware of Deputy O'Connor's keen interest in the Tallaght area. When I represented that area as a Deputy, I noted his keen interest in representing the people of Tallaght.

And supporting them.

As a result of the redrawing of the constituency boundaries, I was able to facilitate his desire to be elected to serve Tallaght. I am familiar with the issues at Millbrook Lawns health centre. I understand that capital provision has been made for the centre. Perhaps the officials from the HSE will deal with that matter. It is clear that good primary and community care facilities are needed in areas of huge disadvantage in west Tallaght such as Fettercairn, Jobstown and Brookfield. I will let my colleagues from the HSE comment on the fact that the accident and emergency department at Tallaght Hospital has become a substitute for out-of-hours general practitioner provision.

I will move on to the wider issue of the new contract of employment for pharmacists. It is intended to pay pharmacists a dispensing fee to separate the price of pharmaceutical commodities from the professional services provided by pharmacists. My strong opinion is that pharmacists in disadvantaged areas with large general medical service practices will do much better under the new arrangements. Professor Drumm said earlier that he thinks both sides are close to agreement under the Shipsey process and I welcome that.

Deputy O'Connor also spoke about children's services in Tallaght Hospital. As I said in the Dáil yesterday, a new ambulatory care facility is to be provided in Tallaght to deal with substantially higher volumes of activity than is the case at the existing children's hospital there. The children's hospital in Tallaght currently deals with approximately 3,500 day cases a year, but that will increase to 9,000. It treats approximately 30,000 outpatients, a figure that will increase to 58,000. It deals with approximately 31,000 accident and emergency attendances, but that will increase to 48,000. The level of activity in the ambulatory care centre will be substantially greater than the current level of activity at the existing centre. The new care centre will be a satellite of the National Children's Hospital - it will be connected to it. Perhaps the HSE representatives will comment on that.

I would like to respond to the suggestion that the HSE is a quango that will damage us all, or bring us all into disrepute. It sounds like a hospital will be needed if people are being harmed. We would not be able to do what we are doing in cancer care, paediatrics and several other areas if it were not for the existence of a single entity like the HSE. I mentioned earlier what happened in the former Midlands Health Board when the time came to implement the report produced by Professor O'Higgins. The then health board decided that three hospitals would each get a bit of the action. In such circumstances, we were never going to get the quality of service needed in the region. Similarly, the cancer control strategy, the paediatric initiative and many other developments would not have happened without the establishment of the HSE.

Politicians have an important role in the provision of health services. Ireland is a democracy. Health is a big issue in democracies throughout the world, including Canada, the United States and European countries, because it affects everyone. Many of us may have left the education system behind when we finished our formal education, but we cannot say we have left the health service behind. All our citizens have a keen interest in the provision of health services. I want this country to have a health care system that is the envy of the world for the manner in which it is delivered, administered and organised. That is possible, but it will not happen without the input of the recently established HSE and the development of the ambitious reform programme that is under way. When an individual or an entity is undertaking a process of reform, those responsible for the reform process make many enemies. That inevitably happens when changes are made to service provision systems in areas like transport and health in Ireland and other countries. Reformers are not popular because most people are happy with the status quo- they do not like change. People can be fearful of change because they think it threatens them. According so some of the letters I receive from different professions, one would think we were planning to close down their businesses and take away their livelihoods.

Nobody is more supportive of enterprise than me. I support pharmacists who are entrepreneurs providing a community service. Equally, I want to ensure the taxpayer is given the best possible value in the case of the cost of drugs. The State pays 80% of the cost of drugs. We want to get the best possible value, the most efficient service and a fair return for pharmacists and for companies which produce and innovate pharmaceutical and other therapeutical products. It is all about fairness and equity and not about putting anybody out of business. Above all else, it is about providing an improved service for patients across the country.

I probably know the pharmacist who sent the letter and I probably received one myself. I accept that pharmacists have borrowed heavily and I have met a number of them. We are not seeking to put anyone out of business but rather we are seeking to put in place a fair system of reimbursement and to distinguish between the cost of the commodity. The idea that a pharmacist receives a mark-up of up to 50% on a particular product is not a good way of supporting the professional pharmacy which dispenses medication. Mark-ups on this scale are not a good idea.

Mr. Woods

On the point of public accountability, we take seriously the comments made by the Deputy about public accountability and the points made by Oireachtas Members at a recent meeting with us. They raised the issues of the timely response to parliamentary questions or to their representations or the quality of the response. We are putting a lot of energy into getting this right. We know we have not achieved this yet and we know we need to improve further. We have made a significant investment in the parliamentary affairs division as a means of assisting this improvement. We will continue this work.

Professor Drumm has made it clear to us as directors and to our organisation that our public accountability is our top priority. I will advise Adrian Charles in terms of connection. I know that Deputy O'Connor is well connected to that piece of the service and to Tallaght hospital. I suggest that John O'Brien deals with some of the issues raised by the Deputy about hospitals and Millbrook Lawns.

Mr. O’Brien

On the issue of maternity services in Tallaght, a review of maternity services in Dublin is under way which will recommend how these should be organised, located and delivered. On the question of the cramped site at the Mater Hospital, the RKW report is very clear that there is no question of the Mater site being cramped in its ability or capacity to accommodate a comprehensive and complete children's and maternity hospital, with a scope for expansion of more than 20%.

On the question of cancer services, I have no doubt that Professor Keane will talk to the clinicians in Tallaght on this matter. Consideration will also be given to discussions with people in St. James's Hospital about how cancer services might be developed.

I will respond to the Deputy on the question of the nurse specialising in dealing with suicide.

The Minister will know that everybody wants a world-class health service. The disappointment is that we have had ten years of the Celtic tiger and ten years of Deputies Micheál Martin and Brian Cowen as Ministers for Health and Children and the current Minister but still the problems remain.

Did I hear the Minister correctly when she said that 97 patients also need a surgical review?

I did not comment on that.

Did the Minister say that 97 of the women whose mammograms are being reviewed need a surgical review?

Mr. O’Brien

Not mammograms. As I indicated earlier, the terms of reference of the review are to review the breast radiology services in Portlaoise and this extends primarily to mammography and to ultrasound. The reason the ultrasound review is taking longer is because ultrasound is not a film and the only way to process and check outcomes of ultrasound would be to go back over charts and come to some conclusions as to whether or not there is an indication that a further review by a surgeon is required.

What I said earlier is that 568 charts from ultrasound had been reviewed, based on a protocol developed by Dr. O'Doherty. Of those, 391 have been completed at this stage and, of these, 97 cases will be called back for surgical review by the surgeon, not to have another mammogram or ultrasound but a review first by the consultant. That is being organised and will, I hope, be undertaken and completed in the next week. If there is a requirement then to have a mammography or repeat an ultrasound, arrangements will be made to do that.

Is Mr. O'Brien saying that if this review had not been undertaken that these 97 women might never have been called back for a surgical review, and that as a result of the review they are now being called which suggests that the assessment made in the first place was somehow faulty or incomplete?

Mr. O’Brien

No.

Mr. O'Brien can respond when Senator Fitzgerald has completed her questions.

This raises the issue of how much confidence women can have in breast care services currently, as does the saga in regard to the Midland Regional Hospital in Portlaoise and Barrington's Hospital. Clearly, it is very disturbing for the nine women who thought they were clear and who have now been told they have breast cancer.

Moreover, what confidence can women have in the services they have received in private hospitals and in other public hospitals? Following on from the information we received about the Midland Regional Hospital in Portlaoise, the review being carried out there, and based on the information Mr. O'Brien has just given, would it be advisable to conduct a review of the services in other hospitals, either public or private? Does Mr. O'Brien have any information or has he had any discussions with the Department of Health and Children or the Health Service Executive as to whether this might be necessary in view of the information that is emerging? One does not want to scaremonger in any way, but given the scale of the information that is emerging, will it be necessary to do this? I direct the question to both the Minister and the Health Service Executive.

I also wish to ask about cutbacks. It is easy to forget that on a daily basis home care packages are being cut. I have heard of more this week. Independent living, for example, is being hugely compromised by cuts in home help and home care packages. What reassurance can we give to the public that home care packages will develop and expand rather than be cut back in the coming weeks and months? What is the status of the cutbacks in regard to home care packages? People who had serious accidents want to discharge themselves from hospitals to families who are willing to look after them but they cannot receive home care packages currently.

My third question relates to co-location and, as the Minister said, the provision of 1,200 more beds in co-located hospitals. What are the financial implications of co-location for the public hospital system? What studies have been done in this regard and how will the shortfall be met? Is a budget available for public hospitals which are receiving funding by other means currently? How will co-location be dealt with and is a budgetary allowance being built into the system at present?

Will the cervical screening programme begin in January? Will an attempt be made to upgrade laboratories here, as opposed to sending the tests to the United States? The Irish Medical Times and other media outlets have raised concerns about some of the results that have come back from the United States, where it is said a different methodology in regard to screening is used there. In addition, the reading of some of those results creates difficulties for Irish hospital and specialist personnel. Furthermore, it is not by any means the ideal method to send thousands of tests to a system that operates in a different way to be read and that calls women back on a different basis for screening.

I remind the Minister that last year, 154 young people aged between 13 and 17 were admitted to adult services in psychiatric facilities. The representatives of the HSE state that 30 new beds in patient units would be available in 2008. This programme is already considerably behind schedule considering the promises made last year and the previous year. I ask the Minister and representatives of the HSE whether they are confident that young children as young as 13 will no longer need to use inpatient adult psychiatric wards for their treatment for mental difficulties if they need inpatient help.

On the new children's hospital, what will happen to secondary care services in the Dublin area? Is it intended that all secondary care for children will now be provided in the Mater? What liaison has taken place with the transport authorities in terms of dealing with the major transport and parking issues that arise regarding the Mater Hospital? Is it intended that the urgent care centre in Tallaght will operate from 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. or will it be a 24-hour service? Is it intended to have inpatient beds or simply outpatient beds? Has the Minister or the HSE any concerns that the golden hour, the critical hour in which a child needs to be treated if a life is at risk - there are at least two such children each week in the Tallaght area - will be compounded by the difficulties that parents will face in driving their children or having them transported by ambulance to the Mater, given the traffic problems in such a centre-city location?

I will deal with the last question first. It will be an 18-hour service from, as I understand it, 8 a.m. until midnight. Perhaps Mr. O'Brien might deal with the issues. On secondary care, it is estimated that Tallaght will have 9,000 day cases per year, compared with approximately 3,500 at present. It will have 58,000 outpatients which, I believe, represents a doubling of what happens at present. The accident and emergency unit will deal with approximately 48,000 cases, up from approximately 31,000 at the moment. There will be considerable activity and the Tallaght facility will be a satellite of the national hospital.

We want to roll out the cervical screening programme to ensure we can incorporate some of the developments taking place in other countries. While I am not a medic, I understand other countries are facilitating HPV screening components. We want to do it in a way whereby we are not stuck with a model that is not able to quickly accommodate new developments. Having discussed the matter with Professor Keane, it will not take place in January, but will happen next year. The national screening board will make an announcement in that regard. It is awaiting a determination regarding resources, which will be decided following the budget in two weeks. The manner in which the Estimates are handled this year is different from before. A number of weeks ago we compiled the existing level of service provision, made public by the Minister for Finance. The new developments will form part of the budget day announcement. I want to make clear that it will not be rolled out like BreastCheck. The aim is to roll it out to 240,000 people in a full year. It will not be done county by county or by different age groups. It will be rolled out in a completely different way in what has been described to me as the big bang approach, if that is not an inappropriate way to describe it.

The health service in general and in particular the HSE received more than €1 billion in additional resources in 2007 compared with 2006. That is not a cutback. The home care packages increased from €2,000 to €4,000. Ms Laverne McGuinness will comment on the matter. I completely agree with Senator Fitzgerald. We need to continue to roll out the homecare packages. Many older people in institutional care could have remained at home if we had more home supports when the decision was made that they needed support and there was no support other than residential care. As Ms McGuineess has said, it is the preference of older people and their families. All the international research of which I have been made aware proves that older people enjoy a higher quality of life. There is some research in the US to suggest that older people can live up to two years longer if they stay in their home environment.

I was asked if we need to review mammography and other services. I discussed this with the deputy chief medical officer, sitting on my left, and other clinicians and the advice is "No". Clearly if a clinician or a patient has an issue, we recommend that they go to their general practitioner. We do not want a review for the sake of a review, nor do we want to undermine confidence in what is essentially an excellent service notwithstanding, unfortunately, the difficulties that arose in Portlaoise, for which I have already apologised. People are entitled to have confidence in the review that is taking place.

Mr. Woods

I ask my colleague Ms Laverne McGuinness to address the home care packages and child psychiatry.

Ms McGuinness

We agree fully that home care packages is the way to go, because older people in particular want to remain at home and when they are in hospital, they want to go home rather than end up in long-term care. In response to the comment on cutbacks, we have been ahead of delivery targets in 2007. We are 12% ahead of last year's figure for delivery of home care packages, and by the end of the year, we will have delivered more than 8,500 home care packages and 10,000 will avail of home care packages. In terms of what we were contracted to deliver, we are 3% ahead of that at this stage. Even at this point, there is a requirement for additional allied health professionals as part of the home care packages.

Currently, a great many nursing staff provide home care packages but there is a requirement for occupational therapists and physiotherapists. There has been a recruitment embargo but we have gone through a derogation to secure an additional 250 therapist posts and they will be in place in 2008 as it is our intention to grow the home care packages and not restrict them. Home help hours also augment and supplement the home care package services. There will be 11.1 million home help hours delivered by the end of 2007, which is well ahead of where we were in 2006. The intention is to ensure that people can avail of home help.

The reason it may appear there are cutbacks is that in some areas the home care packages were advanced very quickly and ran ahead of the budget provision targets for 2007. It seems there is a curtailment in some areas but that is not prevalent in all areas. Our requirement is to come in within the Vote, but that will not be the case in 2008 when we will have a full budget allocation.

In some extremely urgent cases people are not receiving home care packages and people are not being discharged from hospital because their home care packages are not in place. Whatever about targets being met, that is the reality on the ground.

Ms McGuinness

In regard to child psychiatry, 30 beds have been assigned specifically for child and adolescent psychiatry by the end of 2008. That is a major improvement and I fully accept that we have not been as quick in putting these facilities in place as was originally intended. That is not to say there may not be some situation where a child who is almost an adult under 18 years may have to use an inpatient bed in the interim period.

On the 97 surgical reviews--

To clarify, is the figure 97 or 98?

Mr. Woods

The figure I have is 97. There are still 177 cases to be reviewed, which I am informed will be completed by tomorrow. The total number will be known at that point. Again the intention is to address those cases immediately. The Senator asked if the ultrasound scans were badly read. The answer is that one cannot detect that because there is nothing to go on an ultra sound, it is just an image.

My question is why 97 scans are being sent back now for review. These were not deemed to be necessary for surgical review in the first instance however, because the review is happening, another 97 cases will be reviewed. Do these women know they are to be referred back for surgical review?

Mr. O’Brien

No, it is our intention to contact them over the next day or two with a view to their coming in immediately to the clinics for treatment over the coming weeks. Some of the women may have to undergo another ultrasound or mammogram.

This is devastating news.

I appreciate the concern expressed by members. I, too, would like to comment on this issue but we must continue.

Mr. O’Brien

It is an indicated part of the review. The initial factor that gave rise to the review was significant concern about mammograms. We included ultrasounds primarily for completeness and comprehensiveness. One cannot look at ultrasounds, so we use charts as proxies in that case. The protocols set to determine whether a woman should be recalled to be seen by a surgeon are conservative. Where any doubt exists, a woman is recalled. That is the position.

I will stick to the written questions I submitted though many of them overlap with questions already asked. I, too, would like to receive a written response to my questions. I am the Fianna Fáil spokesperson on older people and children and I am on a mission in respect of these two issues.

My first question was addressed to Professor Drumm who will know that currently, children and teenagers with psychiatric illness are being treated in adult psychiatric wards. When and where will the HSE provide dedicated, accessible beds for children and teenagers? My second question relates to BreastCheck. BreastCheck offers free mammograms to women between the ages of 50 and 65. There is an aspiration that the service will be extended to older women who, according to medical evidence, are at a greater risk of cancer. When does the Minister intend to extend this service to women over 65 years of age?

The Minister will be aware of my document, A new Approach to Ageing and Ageism. Medical evidence suggests that women between 55 years and 75 years of age are more likely to get breast cancer. I do not believe there should be an age cap in respect of this service. People are living longer and as a result the risk of their getting cancer is greater. I have a problem with caps on age. As I have said in the Seanad many times this is partly due to the fact that the Department of Finance is male dominated. There should be no cap in terms of age in respect of cancer screening services. I have studied this issue in depth.

My next question relates to an issue on which I tabled an Adjournment matter in the Seanad last year and to which I did not get an answer. Is it not age discrimination to prohibit GPs from treating medical card patients once they reach 70 years of age while they can continue to treat private patients? I am an advocate for an improvement in services for children and older people. I have added suicide prevention to my portfolio.

The Senator should put the question.

I will not take criticism now. The meeting has not been the way we expected it to be.

I disagree with the Senator on that point.

Is there a telephone helpline available 24/7 for people thinking of suicide? We had a meeting in the Oireachtas with a group from Wexford to consider two families, where a wife and child committed suicide and a whole family committed suicide. I am not an authority on suicide, but there should be a dedicated help line available 24/7 so that people can ring someone if they need help,

I did not mean to curtail the Senator, but there was a general agreement that members would be able to ask questions. The Minister may be gone before I will get a chance to say something, but let me reiterate that my only issue with Dr. O'Doherty is that she was on the interview panel. It was nothing else to do with her competence. The idea that 97 women will be told again that there may be an issue for them, is as Senator Fitzgerald stated, truly devastating and a cause for serious concern. I understand there may be some more out of the 117 that may also get news. I want to make that point before the Minister leaves. I will take the opportunity to ask a couple of questions at the very end. Obviously as Chairman, I could not ask them any sooner.

We thank the Minister for coming and we understand that she must go.

In response to Senator White's questions, can I say in defence of the two gentlemen who have accompanied me, that notwithstanding their gender they give me outstanding advice. There are excellent public servant of both genders. We are advised on an objective basis. Much of the criticism we got from political figures, including some of the Senator's Seanad colleagues last week was around male cancers. There was a feeling that we took women's issues more seriously. Senator Norris spoke very passionately on this matter.

We are rolling out screening programmes on the basis of the best scientific advice. The scientific advice is to target in the first instance, those aged from 50 to 64 and then 64 to 69. I hope to see that happen when the full roll out of the first group is completed.

I am still not clear about when it will happen.

The roll-out takes from 24 to 27 months. We have begun the roll out in the west and the south. Nine counties still remain and the roll out must take place over a period of 24 to 27 months from now. The next phase will begin after that period. The national screening service will be amalgamated with the HSE very quickly. It will come under the remit of Professor Keane. I will discuss with him the speed at which we can make this happen.

Senator White referred to a 24/7 telephone help service for people thinking of suicide. I totally agree that there is a need for an emergency out of hours service and perhaps the HSE, which is very concerned about this matter, will comment on it.

In regard to what the Vice Chairman said about Dr. Ann O'Doherty, I reiterate what I said earlier, she is an extraordinarily competent clinician. She is the only person from Ireland on the standards body of the Royal College of Radiology in the UK. She is a person of integrity, her job was to review mammograms and some ultrasound scans. Dr. O'Doherty has reassured more than 3,000 women that they have nothing to worry about and she has diagnosed nine cancers. This is the job she was asked to do. She was appointed by the Health Service Executive. Lest there is any doubt about it, I fully endorse her appointment. I cannot think of anyone more qualified to do the job. Much of the work done by her including, writing the report, was done during her spare time. Perhaps the HSE which has taken advice on the matter will address those issues.

As I said at the outset, in respect of the issues which arose in Portlaoise, the priority was to identify the women in respect of whom a cancer diagnosis arose and to ensure they received speedy treatment and counselling. This remains our priority. We must learn from what happened in Portlaoise in terms of how we organise cancer services. The learning curve is important for the national cancer control programme, the Department, the HSE and all those involved in this matter.

On the matter raised by me on the Adjournment in the Seanad 18 months ago, the then Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children, Deputy Seán Power, said that the review in respect of contracts for doctors was ongoing.

Senator White has raised an interesting issue in the context of the new contracts of employment and the treatment by GPs of GMS patients as opposed to private patients. I know of a number of clinicians who, while permitted to work as a locum, can no longer operate under the current contract. There is a hang-over in this area in terms of past experience. This issue will be addressed by the HSE in the context of the new contract. In my opinion, we have shortages of key manpower in our health system. Clearly, a person's competence and ability to provide a service should determine the age at which he or she ceases provision of the service.

When can we expect this provision to be in place?

The issue will be discussed in the context of the new contract. The HSE is taking advice on the matter.

The Minister is saying that the matter will be considered in the context of the new contract.

While I do not wish to be provocative, I have been asked by specific doctors to clarify this question.

It will not be the subject of any new contract as the current contract provides for an expiry date of 70 years of age for GMS. Obviously, it would be my desire that a doctor competent and available to do the job should be permitted to do so. A friend of mine who is a doctor and no longer has a GMS practice because he is 71 years old acts as a locum in a practice that has a large GMS population. He also does some private work. We should be in a position to avail of the services of people such as this. It is an issue for the HSE in the context of the contract discussions.

What has happened in one of the controversial cases--

The Senator cannot elaborate as the Minister must leave.

I want to get a response from the HSE to my question regarding the provision of psychiatric services 24/7.

Senator White will get the reply.

On the issue of GMS doctors, the HSE has not been able to fill a particular position thus leaving the doctor concerned to operate the system. This is a farcical situation. As I understand it, the Minister is saying that there will be a change in this area.

I cannot be certain. As I stated earlier a person competent to do the job should be allowed to do it.

Mr. Woods

We intend to include the GMS issue in the contract discussions with GPs. I will ask Ms McGuinness to address the child psychiatry issue.

I thank the Minister and her officials for attending.

Ms McGuinness

I will deal first with the issues relating to child and adolescent psychiatric beds. There are two arrangements in place, including interim arrangements and longer-term arrangements for interim beds. There are six beds in St. Anne's in Galway. It is proposed to provide four additional beds at this facility. The beds will be delivered from a capital perspective in March 2008. It is proposed to provide six additional beds in St. Vincent's in Fairview. The timescale in this regard, from a capital perspective, is March 2008.

I am not an authority on this subject but I have been asked to raise the issue today. The problem of which I have been advised is that children are being admitted to adult psychiatric hospitals. The idea should be that they would be in a paediatric hospital if they have a psychiatric illness. The term I was given was "dedicated accessible beds". When will the HSE provide these?

Ms McGuinness

The Senator is right that children with psychiatric problems have been admitted to inpatient beds in adult facilities. This is against best practice and why we are moving to dedicated beds, specifically for children.

In what kind of hospital?

Ms McGuinness

In St. Anne's in Galway.

This question was answered while Senator White was out of the room. I am concerned the question was asked already.

I do not understand what type of hospital St. Anne's is but the Vice Chairman does.

Ms McGuinness

It is a psychiatric hospital.

Is it a psychiatric hospital for adults?

Ms McGuinness

A dedicated bed for children means it is not a bed that an adult could use today and a child would be put into tomorrow.

However, it is in an adult psychiatric hospital.

Ms McGuinness

The same would apply at St. Vincent's Hospital in Fairview, Dublin. Six beds will be provided there in March 2008. It is an extension of a new wing. There will be no new beds in Warrenstown in Galway in 2008. However, from the end of 2007, it moved from a five-day service to a seven-day one, meaning more bed days are available for children.

There will eight additional beds in St. Stephen's Hospital in Cork for children and adolescents with psychiatric illnesses in September and October 2008.

In 2009, there will be 20 new beds available in Cork. The commissioning date for those will be spring 2009. There will also be 20 additional beds in Galway. Ten are already part of an interim arrangement which will be replaced with 20 new beds, subject to planning permission. The completion date will also be in spring 2009.

Running in parallel to these capital plans, staffing will be made available. As soon as the equipment is in place, the staff will be available to provide the services to children.

Would Ms McGuinness mind putting that in writing?

The Senator will get it in writing. I have not allowed other members to have a supplementary question.

Ms McGuinness

I have no problem in providing that information in writing. On the 24/7 and out-of-hours service, several examples were raised, including the Wexford case. I do not want to get into the specifics of that particular family but the case involved out-of-hours social care at a weekend rather than access to mental health services. The HSE put a group together to examine this and its work has concluded. If there are difficulties, a social worker can be called out at a weekend. The service has been submitted to the Estimates process and we are in discussions with the Department of Health and Children on this.

Regarding the questions about a 24-hour telephone helpline for suicide, some services are available. A person presenting with suicidal tendencies can access a GP in an out-of-hours service from which he or she can be referred to acute psychiatric services. This work has shown that there is a need for more extensive social services in the area of mental health and other areas. There is a group examining that but we must deal first with the social workers.

If one rings the doctors--

The witnesses must simply answer questions. I have not allowed anyone else to come in and out.

There is a serious problem in Wexford and a group has been formed.

I understand that but the format of the meeting is that members ask questions and the witnesses reply.

We have all day but I am not going to go into that again. The families of the people in Wexford came to Leinster House to meet the Members and the consensus in the group is that they want a 24 hour a day, seven day a week telephone service available, not just for the doctor because one might wait three hours for the doctor on call to arrive.

Will Ms McGuinness please answer Senator White's questions in full?

Ms McGuinness

An out-of-hours suicide prevention service would not have assisted in the case the Senator mentions. It was a 24 hour a day, seven days a week social work service. We have concluded our work on those proposals and have submitted to the Department of Health and Children as part of the budgetary process an estimate for the additional funding required to provide the services with dedicated professionals.

The Senator is speaking about a different 24 hour a day suicide prevention service which the Samaritans provide in some areas. In many cases it depends on voluntary providers. We are doing work with a wider team for other such services.

That is fantastic. Would Ms McGuinness please put that in writing for me?

Ms McGuinness

That is no problem.

I had to save my questions till the end of the meeting. Some were intended for the Minister so I will not take up too much of the witnesses' time but will ask a question of Mr. O'Brien. Will the 97 women to be recalled by the Midlands Hospital Portlaoise be notified today and how soon will they have the surgical review? How quickly will the women from the group of 177 know they have to be recalled? I am expressing the concerns of the committee on hearing that more women must go through this trauma having believed themselves to be in the clear. We sincerely hope that they will all be found to be clear. Will the embargo on recruitment will continue through December?

Mr. O’Brien

We share the concerns of the committee about the women to whom the Deputy refers and hope the outcome for them is positive. We have done this to be comprehensive. We will commence the recall of the 97 today and the review of the outstanding 177 will be completed by tomorrow when we will have the full number of those who need to return for surgical review. We expect that process to be completed by next week. If it is necessary for any of those women to have further ultrasound or mammography tests, we have started the process of arranging with hospitals to do that and it will be done pretty well immediately.

Mr. Woods

While there is no embargo on recruitment, the present arrangements will remain in place until the end of the year. There is a derogation process and essential posts to be refilled are being refilled, with 450 having been processed to date.

On behalf of the committee I thank the witnesses for attending the meeting.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.15 p.m. sine die.
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