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JOINT COMMITTEE ON HEALTH AND CHILDREN debate -
Tuesday, 27 May 2008

NRB Superannuation Issues: Discussion.

I apologise because some committee members have had to leave the meeting. They will return shortly.

I welcome the following to the committee: Ms Sylda Langford, chair of the establishment group; Ms Patricia Curtin, establishment group member and assistant national director of FÁS; Ms Leonie Lunny, member of the implementation group and chief executive of Comhairle; Mr. Brian Flynn, Department of Social and Family Affairs; Ms Simonetta Ryan, principal officer, national human resources and workforce planning, Department of Health and Children; and Ms Patsy Carr, assistant principal, pension policy unit, Department of Health and Children. We also have in attendance representatives of the National Rehabilitation Board pensions group who have already made a presentation to the committee, Mr. Seán O'Brien, Mr. Rossa Ó Briain and Ms Nora Walls.

I draw attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I ask that mobile phones be switched off.

To clarify, we will first have a presentation from Ms Simonetta Ryan of the Department of Health and Children. The members of the other group are present in case members have questions for them but they will not be asked to make a presentation today as they have already done so. I call Ms Ryan.

Ms Simonetta Ryan

The Department of Health and Children received a copy of the presentation to the committee by the former National Rehabilitation Board, NRB, employees on 28 April. Not having sight of the appendices referred to, our submission is a factual account of how the dissolution of the NRB came about and the structures put in place by Government to facilitate the smooth transition to mainstreamed services for people with disability.

The NRB was set up under the Health (Corporate Bodies) Act 1961. The National Disability Authority Act 1999 provided for the NDA to be established and for the NRB to be dissolved. The Comhairle Act 2000 provided for reconstitution of the National Social Services Board, NSSB, into Comhairle. Statutory Instrument 170 of 2000 transferred certain properties, rights and liabilities of the National Rehabilitation Board to the National Disability Authority and three other existing bodies. SI 171 of 2000 dissolved the NRB and provided for the transfer of its 185 posts to the National Disability Authority — set up under SI 170 of 2000 — and three other existing bodies. SI 445 of 1998 — local government superannuation scheme — is the superannuation scheme former NRB employees were members of and from which any superannuation entitlements derive.

Following the report of the Commission on the Status of People with Disabilities, in November 1997 the Government decided to set up an establishment group for the National Disability Authority under the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. The establishment group was tasked with preparing detailed proposals for the establishment of the NDA and the future location of departmental responsibility for the functions of the NRB and the setting up of a disability support service.

The establishment group reported in June 1998 with proposals which included the following: the statutory functions of the NDA; merging the appropriate services of the NRB and the NSSB into a new support service under the remit of the Minister for Social, Community and Family Affairs; and transfer of responsibility for vocational training and sheltered and supported employment from the NRB and the Department of Health and Children to the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment.

The establishment group also recommended that NRB staff would be reallocated to the NDA, the new support service, Comhairle, FÁS, the Department of Health and Children and the health boards, in proportion to the needs identified in each case as a result of the relocation of the NRB's functions. The Government accepted those recommendations in July 1998 and called on the establishment group to implement them through the dissolution of the NRB and the transfer of its functions and resources, including staff, to the relevant mainstream service providers and the NDA. The NDA was also to be established as a statutory agency. That process was completed in June 2000 with the introduction of the policy of mainstreaming.

The establishment group was chaired by Ms Sylda Langford of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, which was the Department with responsibility for disability equality, including the new policy of mainstreaming. Representatives of other relevant Departments and State agencies, including the Departments of Finance, Social and Family Affairs, Enterprise, Trade and Employment and Health and Children and FÁS, the NSSB-Comhairle and the NRB participated in the group. In addition, a human resources expert group was set up to deal with any staffing issues arising from the transfer of NRB posts. With the agreement of all parties, a mediator was appointed to conclude negotiations with staff representatives before the final proposals for their transfer in the form of an industrial relations agreement were voted on and accepted.

The relocation of NRB staff in proportion to the needs identified in each case as a result of the relocation of NRB's functions, was a key principle underpinning the implementation process. That also meant that the question of abolition of posts did not arise in any case. The NRB undertook the initial consultation process with its employees in order to achieve an agreed approach to staff transfers and ensure the optimum matching of staff to the receiving employers. The two largest receiving employers were FÁS and Comhairle, followed by the NDA with technical staff transferring to audiology services within the Eastern Health Board and psychologists transferring to the National Educational Psychological Service, NEPS.

The National Disability Act 1999 was enacted in December 1999 and commenced in June 2000. As well as establishing the NDA, it provided for the dissolution of the NRB and the transfer of its functions, properties, rights and liabilities. It also provided for the transfer of its CEO and staff and the preservation of their existing terms and conditions including superannuation. That was followed by the Comhairle Act 2000, which reconstituted the NSSB into Comhairle and included advocacy among its functions.

With the acceptance by NRB staff of an IR agreement, which also protected their existing terms and conditions, including their superannuation benefits under the local government superannuation scheme, PRSI status and incremental dates, the arrangements for the dissolution of the NRB were completed in June 2000 and individual letters confirming that were issued.

The NDA and Comhairle Acts were commenced in June 2000, accompanied by Statutory Instruments 170 and 171 of 2000. SI 170 provided for the transfer of NRB properties, rights and liabilities. SI 171/2000 provided for the transfer of all 185 serving staff to a named receiving employer as set out in the schedule to the statutory instrument. The schedule attached to SI 171/2000 identified each office by grade and number of staff to be allocated to each of the receiving employers.

Employees of the former NRB were members of the local government superannuation scheme, LGSS, and on transfer had their superannuation benefits protected in the legislation or through IR agreements. The individual case raised concerns a claim for redundancy following the granting of early retirement on the grounds of "ill health" to an individual who did not transfer to a new employer. In this case, the employee had elected for one receiving employer, then another, before seeking to retire on grounds of ill health. This employee did not accept the IR agreement referred to above. The Employment Appeals Tribunal, EAT, made a finding of redundancy, within the special meaning of section 21 of the Redundancy Payments Act 1967, in his case. No other case was before the Employment Appeals Tribunal. The Employment Appeals Tribunal finding applied in the very particular circumstances of this individual alone who, it found, did not accept employment with any of the designated public bodies under the relevant statutory instruments. In the case of this individual, the HSE granted the pension increase on grounds of abolition of office for the purposes of the LGSS by reason of the finding of redundancy and for no other reason.

Other than in the case of the former employee referenced, all NRB employees accepted employments with the named bodies under SI 171/2000. That statutory instrument provided for the transfer of serving staff to a similar office under the relevant public body as set out in the schedule to the statutory instrument. The schedule identified each office by grade and number of staff to be allocated to each of the receiving employers. The post of the former employee referenced was included in that office identification. All terms and conditions of employment were preserved. Section 36 of the National Disability Authority Act 1999 confirmed this.

The Employment Appeals Tribunal made a finding of redundancy within the special meaning of section 21 of the Redundancy Payments Act 1967. Section 21 applies "where an alternative offer of employment has not been accepted in circumstances where it would not be unreasonable for the employee concerned to so refuse in the circumstances". The refusal of new employment by the former employee referenced appears to have been accepted by the Employment Appeals Tribunal as falling within the particular circumstances of section 21 of the 1967 Act. The Employment Appeals Tribunal decision applied only to the former employee referenced.

The High Court did not affirm that a redundancy situation applied in the NRB in June 2000. The High Court decision was narrow in scope. It stated, “there seems to be no provision in the statute or statutory instrument to provide for people in the position of the defendant in this case. However, it is not the function of the court to correct that omission. In my view the Tribunal was incorrect in attempting to attach responsibility to the Minister as representative of the NRB.” The claim by the Minister that the Employment Appeals Tribunal did not address the question as to whether the employee referenced was dismissed by reason of redundancy or whether he ended his employment by agreement was not sustained. The position of the employee referenced was that, as stated by the Employment Appeals Tribunal, “the claimant argued that this situation was forced on him when the NRB dissolved and no agreement was reached on his transfer to any of the other bodies.” This is not the situation in which all other employees of the NRB find themselves.

With regard to the present claim for abolition of office pension, there is no such thing as an "abolition of office pension". The letters of application for “abolition of post pension” which were submitted en masse in 2006, relied on and cite Article 66(1)(b) of the LGSS. This is merely a provision for the granting of added years in certain defined circumstances. [Ms Simonetta Ryan]Article 66(1) of the Local Government (Superannuation) (Consolidation) Scheme 1998 states:

66. (1) Where a registered officer of a local authority has not less than ten years of pensionable local service and-

(a) he or she is removed from office for a cause other than misconduct, unfitness or permanent infirmity of mind or body,

(b) his or her office is abolished, or

(c) his or her position has been materially altered to his or her detriment by changes in its conditions made without reasonable cause and he or she resigns his or her office,

the local authority may, if they so think fit, add to his or her pensionable local service a period not exceeding-

(i) if his or her pensionable local service is twenty years or more — ten years,

(ii) if his or her pensionable local service is less than twenty years — half that service.

In essence, it is considered that the circumstances under which a discretion under Article 66(1) falls to be exercised do not arise.

Under Article 66 there is no specific provision in place as suggested. The local government superannuation scheme makes provision for discretionary augmentation in certain defined circumstances. That any augmentation is discretionary in nature is emphasised by the terms of Article 66(3) which states that "a local authority may, if they so think fit, add less than the maximum period permitted in accordance with this article".

While all of these persons were transferred to alternative employment one of them took a case for abolition of office to the Labour Court. The court ruled on 8 November, in recommendation LCR 19047, that the claimant's post had not been abolished. There is no abolition as the offices transferred and no redundancy occurred as offices were taken up.

On unco-ordinated pensions, the protection of terms and conditions of employees provided for in section 28(8) of the National Disability Authority Act 1999 covers staff transferring to that organisation. Employees redeployed to other employments were given similar guarantees in industrial relations agreements. This protection covered immediate redeployment only. Existing pension rights of all former staff transferred to the receiving employer. If staff subsequently secured employment, through open recruitment, regardless of whether the posts advertised related to previous functions of the National Rehabilitation Board, NRB, they took on the employment terms and conditions associated with the new post.

On the exit package for employees, the mediator did not recommend the abolition of any posts in the dissolution process. She did, however, recommend that "where management are satisfied that exceptional personal circumstances do exist they should recommend that said individual be offered an exit package". As far as the Department of Health and Children is aware all employees transferred with the exception of the employee referenced above. In his case he was given an enhanced pension including added years based on Article 66(1) of the local government superannuation scheme. Therefore, there are no cases of exceptional circumstances where an exit package would be required.

There follows a summary of what is being sought by this group. First, an acknowledgement by the State that former NRB staff were denied their legal right to an abolition of office pension. In the case of this group of former employees no abolition of office occurred. As stated above, former NRB employees were not denied any legal rights and, in fact, had all their employment rights protected. Second, the legal lacuna as identified by the High Court must be addressed as a matter of urgency. There is no legal lacuna as there are no outstanding issues with which to deal. Third, a competent independent person to be appointed to deal with outstanding issues and to deal with staff on an individual basis. This does not arise as there are no outstanding issues. Fourth, that a legal process is established to finalise all outstanding issues. There are no outstanding issues that require a legal process.

I thank Ms Ryan. I ask committee members to bear in mind that we have heard previously from the NRB delegation and we are now hearing the response from the Department of Health and Children. I will begin with the spokespersons for the Opposition and then from the Government side. I call Deputy Andrew Doyle.

I thank the officials for the presentation. I am not quite sure where to start. However, I will begin with the Department's response to the third and fourth claims sought by the NRB group. The Department maintains there are no outstanding issues. We would not be here if there was no outstanding issue as identified by the former members of the NRB. The lacuna was not identified by anyone in the House or the staff of the NRB; it was identified by the High Court.

The Labour Court made its recommendation on 8 November of what year? I understand the Employment Appeals Tribunal recommended in 2003 that payment be authorised of the abolition of office pension, yet this was not paid until 2006. There may be a reason for that. When the determination was made by the tribunal, what was the Department's objective in appealing it to the High Court? It appears to have reluctantly accepted that each case was different.

As I understand the matter, 47% of the staff did not agree with this. It may have been signed subsequently but employees of the NRB were being transferred to positions identified by similar grades rather than job description. In 2001, similar jobs were advertised to those that had been abolished and the advertisements referred to the dissolution of the NRB. To contend that redundancy and abolition of office are somehow different is picking at phrases. In regard to identifying people by grade rather than job description, what process was followed in choosing alternative employers? I am aware of several cases in which the decision was based on geography rather than job description.

The statutory instrument allowed for the transfer of properties. To whom were these properties transferred and were they evaluated? Has an audit been carried out on the use of the buildings in terms of whether they should be repatriated to the HSE or the Department of Health and Children?

I would like the opportunity at the end of this discussion to determine how we should progress this matter.

We may decide to revisit the matter at a future meeting. Committee members will have an opportunity to decide what we should do once we have heard from both sides.

Were legal obstacles put in the way of the authorisation of pension payments? I refer to the court case and the Employment Appeals Tribunal recommendation. It seems odd that after it was awarded, it was contested and three years passed before a payment was made.

Having heard from former employees of the NRB, they are clearly dissatisfied with the entire process. I do not mean disrespect to the representatives of the Department when I say they are not in a position today to decide how we should progress the matter. They are simply here to state the Department's position. However, while there may be no issues outstanding from the perspective of the Department, one party to the dispute certainly believes certain issues remain to be addressed. This is a very determined group of people who believe they have been hard done by.

If we step outside the current issue, we are facing a round of discussions on exit packages. The term "exit packages" is new and is probably meant to replace that of "redundancies". The Department of Health and Children is moving into this area and I do not know why it cannot resolve the staffing issues relating to the HSE or reach an agreement on dealing with the difficulties relating to what appears to be a small number of people who, after all, are not seeking a great deal. We must find a way to resolve this matter. We can discuss it at length and the Department and the former employees of the NRB can put their cases. However, the main issue relates to how to find a solution.

People are aggrieved and annoyed. An argument to the effect that those involved took up alternative positions within the system has been put forward. However, they did so because they did not really have a choice. These individuals were not jumping up and down seeking alternative employment. They were put in the position in which they find themselves. What happened here is similar to what is occurring in respect of decentralisation. I am sure most of those present would love to come and live in Cork. There would not be any problems regarding grants to move location, disturbance money or whatever. If people did not want to come and live in Cork — I do not know why that would be the case——-

In fact, people should pay to go there.

I apologise for the bias of one member of the committee in respect of Cork.

——but were informed that this was the only option open to them, they would be extremely annoyed, and rightly so. As a society, we believe problems should be resolved through negotiation. In such circumstances, it cannot simply be a case of saying that these people can be dismissed, that they do not have a case or that their grievances can be overlooked.

I spent last weekend attending the Mitchell Conference in Belfast. If those in the North could resolve their differences by entering negotiations with a third party, listening to each other and coming up with innovative solutions, then the problems we are discussing should be easy to resolve. However, this matter cannot be resolved by the Department stating that there are not issues to be dealt with while those on the other side state that there are issues. The latter would be a dialogue in which those on one side are deaf to what those on the other are saying and vice versa. Such a dialogue will not help resolve the issue at hand. Regardless of whether it is done by employing an independent arbiter or whomever, a resolution must be found.

Precedents exist in respect of this matter. If a person is given no option but to move to a location to which he or she does not wish to go, he or she will be very annoyed. The people to whom this matter relates have a right to be annoyed, particularly because certain things were, and continue to be, done. The fact that legislation relating to employment rights, employment tribunals, and so on, has been updated does not mean these people should be cut out of the loop. A solution should be found. The committee should put forward a solution. I am not certain the Department is prepared to take it on board but we should insist that it does.

I also heard the presentation from the NRB. I cannot act as judge and jury but the positions put forward by both sides are polar opposites. The NRB made a 45-minute presentation, which we discussed at length. Having listened to the Department of Health and Children's presentation earlier, one would think that everything was above board.

There is something wrong when representations are made on behalf of 185 people. I accept that the NRB was dissolved and that people were moved to various Departments, offices, and so on, throughout the country. Offers were made to 184 of the people involved. Were they satisfied with these or were they forced to move to the various locations? From what I have taken from this meeting, everyone seemed to carry their credits and the money due, including pension funds, with them. Is that true? Is everything from the old NRB being carried forward and will the years of service with the NRB be reckonable on retirement?

There is something wrong, with one exception. The person concerned fought their case and obtained an exit package, as stated, which seems to have been accepted. Would such an exit package have been offered to the other 184 people affected if they had taken that route?

I will not deal with the properties issue, as it is up to the Departments involved to decide where they will relocate, including their costs and valuation. I am talking about the people affected. To say everything is hunky dory in the kitchen is incorrect. We received a presentation from a group representing 184 or 185 people and it was not satisfied. It is dismissed on the last page of the presentation made by the Department of Health and Children today, although I am not acting as judge and jury.

An acknowledgement is being sought from the State that former NRB staff members were denied their legal rights to an office pension. An acknowledgement that there is a lacuna is also being sought, although the Department has indicated that there is no such lacuna or outstanding issues to be dealt with. The people in question are looking for an independent person to be appointed to deal with outstanding issues and for them to be dealt with on an individual basis. The Department has indicated that because there are no outstanding issues, the matter does not arise. That is in complete conflict with what we have heard from former staff members of the NRB.

I do not know who is right or wrong in this matter. I ask that the committee meet in private session to discuss the presentations made. Unfortunately, not many members are present to hear the delegates but many were present for the presentation made by former staff members of the NRB. I would like us to have an opportunity, before we make recommendations or act in this matter, to discuss the presentation made today and that made by former staff members of the NRB. We must figure out who is right or wrong in this matter, although I am not acting as judge and jury. I would like the committee to discuss the issue to see if we can come up with an answer. I am not trying to criticise the Department but on the last page of its presentation it is dismissive. It implies everything is grand and that there is no legal lacuna or a need to appoint an independent assessor. If that is so, why did we listen to former staff members of the NRB? There must be something wrong.

To assimilate the information we have received today, I would like to refresh the information received from one former NRB staff member to outline the process with regard to the offers made during the dissolution of the NRB. When the Minister, Deputy Harney, commented on the reform of the HSE, she indicated that if staff were surplus to requirements in one area, they should be deployed to another. If that was considered inappropriate, the possibility of availing of a voluntary redundancy programme should be considered. It is clear that NRB staff were denied access to that pathway.

I seek clarification of the issue. Refreshing the information available would be helpful in terms of the discussion we will have. Perhaps one of the former staff members of the NRB would be kind enough to do this.

It seems the nub of the issue is whether the posts were abolished. As it is clear that there is a difference of opinion on the matter, perhaps each of the groups would indicate their interpretation. They may wish to respond to the suggestion that Mr. O'Briain sought to retire on grounds of ill health. I know we have heard from the delegates but it was my understanding that Mr. O'Briain did not feel he had retired on such grounds.

There is general agreement that the committee will decide on what can be done. The representatives of the Department of Health and Children have indicated that there is no lacuna, while the representatives of former NRB staff members believe there is nowhere they can go, as a number of bodies have assumed responsibility for the work done by the NRB. It is clear the witnesses believe there is a lacuna. There are issues that we, as a committee, have to address but we will not do that this afternoon. It is quite late — we have been here since 3 p.m. — but we will return to it at a later stage in committee.

We need to do it in committee.

Yes. We will go back first to the Department of Health and Children representative and then to the representative of the National Rehabilitation Board. I realise this is a complicated issue and accept both witnesses have gone into great detail, which we appreciate, but I ask them to respond to the questions of the committee. We will hear from Ms Ryan first.

Ms Simonetta Ryan

I thank the Vice Chairman. A number of the questions may be more easily answered by some of my colleagues here who are involved in, for example, the establishment group but I will cover one or two points briefly.

Deputy Doyle raised the question of the date of the Labour Court recommendation. That was in 2007. I said at the outset that our response is a factual one dealing with the legal position. We do not intend in any way to be harsh in our summary of the situation. When we say there are no outstanding issues to be dealt with, we mean that in a factual way in the context of the legal situation in which all of this matter was resolved. People may have personal or other issues but that is the context in which we were dealing with it.

On the question of ten added years, about which we would be talking when people refer to abolition of office, I emphasise again that there was no abolition of office but if we were to go down the road of ten added years, that is a significant enhancement for people. It is not a small concession. It is at least a quarter, if not more, of a person's pension entitlement.

If the Vice Chairman agrees I will ask Ms Sylda Langford to cover some of the issues that arose regarding the entire process.

Ms Sylda Langford

I will give members the background to my involvement in this area. At the time I worked in the equality division of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. The thinking at the time under equality legislation was that services for people with disabilities were isolated and that they were kept apart from mainstream. The Commission on the Status of People with Disabilities was set up and sat for quite a long time. People with disabilities, as well as the NRB, were very involved in that commission.

The recommendations from the commission were that people with disabilities were entitled to equality and that, therefore, services for people with disabilities should be provided in the mainstream. That meant that when a person with a disability sought a service, like everyone else they should be able to get services from the mainstream agencies such as FÁS, the National Social Services Board, the Department of Social and Family Affairs and the then health boards.

The thinking from an equality perspective was that the services the NRB were providing should be mainstreamed into the mainstream agencies providing similar services for the general population. That is the reason the employment service the NRB provided was mainstreamed to FÁS, the advisory service it provided was mainstreamed to Comhairle, the audiology services were mainstreamed to the then Eastern Health Board and the psychologists working in the NRB were mainstreamed into the Department of Education and Science.

There was to be a new national development authority which would be a voice for people with disabilities and ensure the mainstream services paid as much attention to people with disabilities as they did to others availing of mainstream services. It was accepted also that if people were simply landed into the mainstream without attention being paid to them over time, they may fall apart, so to speak. It was accepted, therefore, that it would take time to build up expertise in the mainstream.

NRB staff were the people with the expertise. They would bring their expertise to FÁS, Comhairle, the Eastern Health Board, etc. We were then set up by the Government, I was asked to chair the group, and we were called the establishment group. We were asked to take the report of the Commission on the Status of People with Disabilities, examine it and make recommendations to Government as to how services for people with disabilities could be mainstreamed. We produced this report in June 1998, which I will leave with the Chairman for the benefit of the committee.

We set out our analysis of the services provided by the NRB and our analysis of the mainstream services, and where the various parts would fit. We were then asked to oversee the dissolution of the NRB and the mainstreaming of its staff and resources. We were something of an overarching committee, but without responsibility for personnel and industrial relations issues. These were matters for the individual agencies.

Parallel to us a group of personnel officers within the various agencies was set up, chaired by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. We had the personnel divisions from FÁS, Comhairle, the Eastern Health Board and the Department of Education, which worked with the personnel division of the NRB and oversaw the staff negotiations.

The NRB was the personnel division that dealt with the staff of the NRB. We did not know people's names and our task was to ensure that every single person, piece of work and all the funding and resources of the NRB found their home in the mainstream. We were not allowed to dissolve until that was completed. It is quite a long time ago, as the Chairman will appreciate, but I recall that people were offered choices as regards to which agencies they saw their work and expertise as being relevant. They were allowed to opt for the agency they deemed to be appropriate for the work they did. I am not aware of all the details because once people opted for the agencies they were going to, they then dealt with those agencies. We reached a point where all staff members of the NRB were going to particular agencies in the mainstream.

There were two cases left to be resolved. We did not know the names of the individuals involved but we knew one was from Navan and other from Arklow. They were the two final cases which had to be resolved, and as chair of the establishment group, I was satisfied that they had employment and that their expertise was being transferred to an agency. When that was done, I sent a memo to Government. I attached a list of all the agencies and staff and informed the Government that the task the establishment group had been asked to undertake was now completed and the Government could now dissolve the establishment group.

Our task ended at that point. The agencies then took over and I know they held various sessions. At some point everybody in the NRB became a staff member of one of the agencies and carried all their entitlements with them — including their entitlement to a social welfare pension, which was specific to the staff of the NRB. As the committee knows, if someone has a State pension, he or she is not entitled to a social welfare pension. However, we ensured that there was no loss of rights to the staff of the NRB. As part of our task, we also had to ensure that there was no diminution of service for people with disabilities. We had to be satisfied that the mainstream services carried on, with the assistance of the staff from the NRB, to deliver the services which the latter had been delivering.

What was also happening at the time as a result of the equality agenda pertaining to people with disabilities was that the then health boards were being encouraged to take a greater interest in people with disabilities and provide greater services. Shortly after, the health boards began to advertise posts for people with disabilities. However, these were in addition to those already in existence and were not in place of the posts of the National Rehabilitation Board. When the process was complete, National Rehabilitation Board services, staff and resources were mainstreamed into the various agencies. In addition, FÁS and the Eastern Health Board were beginning to take more responsibility for providing services for people with disabilities. That is my memory of what we saw ourselves responsible for. It is a matter of fact and I have no judgment or views on it.

Ms Patsy Carr

Some pension queries arose and I would like to address them. Deputy Doyle referred to the High Court. The court's ruling was narrow in focus and stipulated that the Employment Appeals Tribunal, EAT, erred in law in attaching responsibility to the Minister for Health and Children. That was the matter over which the Department went to the High Court. Ms Langford stated those employed by the National Rehabilitation Board were actually entitled to an occupational pension and a State pension.

It was asked whether people were satisfied that all entitlements moved with them. Absolutely everything moved with them, including all their superannuation entitlements. On the question of whether others would have been entitled to such an exit package, they would not because the mediated agreement referred to an existing package excluding abolition of office. The EAT ruled that the person in question had been made redundant. Deputy Doyle raised the issue of the length of time it took to process the case. An amending judgment from the EAT dates from February 2004 and a redundancy payment of €5,718 was issued in December 2005. It would have been after this that the HSE would have been in a position to process the application to add years to the pension in payment. That happened shortly afterwards.

"Abolition of office" means one's post is gone and the work will not be carried out by anybody after its abolition. This is different from the circumstances outlined by Senator Prendergast and any circumstances that might be under consideration at present. In this case, all the posts were required for the future and every one of the staff transferred to another position.

Was a disturbance payment made to anyone because of their having to move?

Ms Patsy Carr

There was a small payment but I do not have the details.

Ms Leonie Lunny

I can answer that. A sum of £1,100 was agreed, in addition to two weeks' annual leave.

Was that for each individual?

Ms Leonie Lunny

It was for each individual. To put it in context, Comhairle was established on the day the National Rehabilitation Board and National Social Services Board were disestablished. Comhairle was a new organisation and involved a merger of 55 National Rehabilitation Board staff and 29 from the National Social Service Board. Those from the latter board received the same conditions, namely, £1,100 and two weeks' annual leave.

Deputy Doyle stated there were no job descriptions and that people did not even know the jobs they were to take up. This might refer to Comhairle, which was a brand new organisation and actually had a board to which five new members were appointed by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Minister for Social and Family Affairs. The decision of the board was that, because Comhairle involved a merger and a new organisation, the strategic vision for the organisation would only be developed when all the staff came together. I refer to the board designate of the new organisation. A new organisational structure was put in place and job descriptions were developed in consultation with all the staff who had come from the National Rehabilitation Board. Staff chose to take up positions because they knew broadly the work the new organisation would do.

Ms Patricia Curtin

As for transferring to FÁS, we took on board responsibility for labour market services. The staff that opted to come to FÁS are carrying out work that is highly similar to that which they carried out in the National Rehabilitation Board. I confirm that all PRSI and superannuation entitlements carried forward into FÁS for all the staff affected.

I will move to the National Rehabilitation Board pensions group as some specific questions were asked of them.

Mr. Seán O’Brien

Senator Prendergast asked two questions, the first of which related to the process while the other pertained to Mr. Ó Briain's case in particular. I will allow Mr. Ó Briain deal with that, as well as the issue of the lacuna and the abolition of office functions.

I will refer briefly to the process and Ms Walls also wishes to mention her experience in this regard. What happened in the process has been described by the various committees and the establishment group. As an individual, my manager came to me and asked me what I would like to happen. I told him I was aware of the provisions for abolition of office and aware of the functions of the local government superannuation scheme into which I had paid for 21 years. I was aware of the provisions in the Redundancy Payments Act. My request was to receive my severance in order that I could say goodbye and get on with my life. He replied I could not have that. When I asked the reason he replied the establishment group had stated I could not have it and the mediator had stated she would exclude the provisions for the abolition of office pension. While it has been stated at this meeting that an abolition of office pension does not exist, it is referred to in the mediator's report. Moreover, a letter from the HSE to Mr. Ó Briain in 2006 makes reference to him being paid an abolition of office pension.

That is what I sought as an individual, as did many others like me. While it was refused to me point blank, I still insisted that my request should be placed on the record. My manager was obliged to so do because he was obliged to record the options that I might seek. I asked him to record it as my first choice. He point blank refused to record it until I demanded that it be recorded. That was my first choice.

My second choice was another organisation and that request was refused. When I asked the reason the answer was it was because I was not getting it. In other words, it was not based on my talent, abilities or choice but on a predetermined notion of where people would go, based on geographical location and agreements that were made with the various receiving organisations behind the backs of staff.

I was told that I was going to FÁS and that I could either go to FÁS or the dole office. That was my choice and that of many others and Ms Walls also will address this point. Essentially, that was the process. The provisions that should have been available to us were not available. Subsequently, when the health boards were being dissolved and the HSE was being established, people there received the abolition of office pension. They received an exit package, an ex gratia payment and an allocation for retraining. That was the option put to them.

As for the process to which Senator Prendergast has referred regarding the current restructuring of the HSE, on 15 May the Minister stated that people will be re-allocated to other areas, with agreement, and if agreement cannot be found they will be offered a voluntary redundancy package. This is all we were asking for in 2000. We still are asking for it and it still is being denied to us. Meanwhile, staff from An Foras Forbartha got provisions, as did those from Córas Trachtála. Why is this still being denied to us even at this stage?

Ms Nora Walls

I am aware that a number of my colleagues have left the organisations to which they were transferred because, like me, they considered that the positions to which they were told they were obliged to go had been put upon them and were unsuitable. I was told that I had no choice but to go to FÁS because my position was being transferred to that organisation. I considered that this was put upon me. I was not in a financial position simply to leave and go on the dole. I only agreed to go to FÁS because I did not go on the dole and I was paid the following month by FÁS. Eventually, I was told by FÁS that I would be obliged to transfer to the FÁS office. There is no way I agreed to go to FÁS; the decision was foisted upon me. I left within one year in 2001 and went on the dole because I felt it was a more honest way of using my skills and pursuing my interests rather than use taxpayer's money in FÁS. I do not know what my job in FÁS was. FÁS accepted my position in good faith and I have no argument with it. However, I believe my skills were wasted.

I am now self-employed as a research consultant on disability and exclusion and inclusion issues. I expected to make pension contributions until I reached 65 years of age but have lost this entitlement. My work shows that people with disabilities believe there are huge barriers to access to services. I am in favour of mainstreaming. My job eventually went to the advocacy worker who is paid by FÁS but works with the local training centre for young people. She goes into schools, provides career guidance and helps students move from the school system to training and work. Many of my colleagues have moved to other organisations. Some have moved to the HSE to work with the disability support service, where they earn €7,000 less per annum, which affects their pensions. This was not advertised at the time but around nine months later the jobs were advertised as available "due to the dissolution of the National Rehabilitation Board". Some of my colleagues are happy in their jobs but many are in jobs because they cannot afford to leave due to family commitments and because they have mortgages to pay. Others are doing good work but have lost their pension entitlements. Many who retired lost the terms and conditions for which they had paid. For example, a person in the Visitors Gallery is in receipt of a pension of €12,000, €8,000 lower than the pension set out in the terms and conditions set down for the NRB.

I am here because there is unfinished business that I would like to see finished.

Mr. Rossa Ó Briain

We have absolute respect for the people who have spoken because they are eminent and were given a job to do. We have no gripe with them but, having listened to them, I have established that there was a significant disconnect between what they were doing and what was happening at Clyde Road.

Ms Langford has explained the brief of the establishment group. It is apparent that the group got things wrong legally as regards the superannuation regulations. There is no way a Minister, much less a mediator or even an assistant secretary in the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, could have avoided the application of the law on the dissolution of the NRB. There were clear provisions in the event that jobs would be abolished, as they were. This issue was examined ad nauseam for six days at the Employment Appeals Tribunal under the heading of redundancy, a legal status classified under redundancy legislation. Ultimately, this logically led to the implication relating to the superannuation regulations.

I think Ms Carr referred to redundancy and costs. There are major implications in this regard. We are the people who met the cost, which is fine with regard to the brief of the establishment group. However, on point number one, the abolition of office and superannuation regulations, it got it all wrong, as has been proved in law.

Obviously, there is a difference of opinion in that respect.

Mr. Rossa Ó Briain

We can ask the High Court judge to clarify what he has said. I do not know why it is still meandering around the issue — it does not seem to understand what the judge said. Not many of its members were present but I was and I heard what the judge said. He actually had to ask counsel representing the Minister for Health and Children to speak slowly because he was meandering all over the place. Even he could not understand him.

I am not sure whether Mr. Ó Briain was identifying somebody——

Mr. Rossa Ó Briain

No.

——but I ask him to remember my statement at the beginning of the discussion that witnesses should not identify persons.

Mr. Rossa Ó Briain

That is fair enough and I understand it. It is on the record of the High Court.

Since the establishment and emphatic statement of the fact that there was a disconnect between what was perceived by the establishment group and what was happening at Clyde Road, these issues have been examined ad nauseam. It started in 2001 when I went with my brother and a former colleague at the NRB, Mr. Tom Kavanagh, to a rights commissioner hearing. The rights commissioner sat at the top of the table and we sat at one side, but representatives of the State were absent on the other side. Thus, the rights commissioner found himself in difficulty. He did not know with whom he was dealing. There was no representation from the NRB. Effectively, his recommendation was unsatisfactory for him and everybody involved.

Because of the fact that the State did not present itself and, as the rights commissioner said, he did not know who the successor to the NRB was, I found I had to proceed to the Employment Appeals Tribunal, at which I represented myself, while the State sent five legal teams. All of the agencies involved had eminent legal teams. The hearing continued for six days and we examined the NRB and what the NRB advisers, in particular, did on a day-to-day basis. After those six days in 2001, the tribunal came to the view that I was redundant in accordance with redundancy legislation. The response I receive occasionally, when I receive one from the Department of Health and Children, is that this is a technicality. As far as I am concerned, all law is technical. The fact that I achieved this was not a fluke but something I knew had happened. The post I filled in the NRB was no longer available. When I was asked by the chairman, in the presence of all the legal teams, who did my job now, I answered that nobody did it. Nobody challenged that statement because it was absolutely correct and they had nothing further to say on the matter.

The tribunal gave its ruling on 29 November 2001 and written confirmation was received in April 2002. Within one month I had people coming to my house from the office of the Chief Justice telling me we were now off to the High Court. The Minister for Health and Children was bringing me to the High Court as the defendant having won a judgment of redundancy from the National Rehabilitation Board in June 2000. Despite what everybody says, I was redundant. I do not know whether the committee is in a position to obtain clarification on the difference between a job disappearing and being abolished. It is lost on me. Ultimately, I had to be awarded an abolition of office pension.

The High Court determined that in fact I was redundant, as had been decided by the Employment Appeals Tribunal. The one point of law in all of this is that the then Minister for Health and Children succeeded in proving that he was not responsible for the NRB, to which he had paid, through his office, €120 million in the 33 years of its existence. In subsequent Freedom of Information Act revelations we discovered that the Minister had not committed any act which caused me to be redundant and lose my office. I do not understand how this can happen. Nobody is responsible, as there is no employer.

I will explain the point about the Labour Court judgment, as it has a bearing on something else about which I want to talk. On 29 May 2007 — almost one year ago — the Labour Court heard an appeal on my case which was brought by the HSE. It was on a different but related matter. I found it most peculiar and hope nobody in this room would advocate such a course of action. What was happening at Clyde Road was absolutely outrageous.

Would Mr. Ó Briain stick to the facts, please?

Mr. Rossa Ó Briain

The facts are that medical evidence was created in the dying moments of the NRB to retire me on medical grounds because I had not supplied sufficient evidence. I did not know about it. Within one year of the NRB's dissolution, my job was on the market at the equivalent of €7,000 per year less than what I had been paid. When I got the job, I was not communicated with for another 3.5 years. When I discovered what was occurring, I brought a case under equality legislation in light of the fabricated evidence. I brought the case on the basis of my perception that the HSE was keeping me out of employment based on employment equality legislation.

Before I said "Good morning" on the day of the equality tribunal hearing in November 2006, the HSE's representatives entered the room, admitted that it had broken the law and offered me a profound apology. We shook hands and parted company. Within ten days, the equality tribunal, having accepted that the HSE had broken the law, awarded me what amounted to €74,000, the appeal of which was heard by the Labour Court in 2007. I was subsequently awarded approximately €142,000. The apology I received was thrown out the window and the HSE is trying to extract every penny from the €142,000 it can.

Regarding the overall picture of events, there are problems. Everyone present who was a member of the NRB has experienced individual problems. The eminent people in the establishment group may have believed that everything was fine, but individuals were not doing well. I fared badly, as did Ms Walls and another colleague who is working with me in my current job, which I competed for in 2001, got in 2005 and in which I am paid the annual equivalent of €7,000 less for doing the same job I did in the NRB. Another colleague present is employed by the HSE and a former NRB staff member. She did not receive an abolition of office pension and is being paid €7,000 per year less than what she received for her work in the NRB. She is due to retire in the next three or four years, to which Ms Walls referred. Despite doing the work from which she was removed by the abolition of her post in 2000, she will be retired on the basis of her lower salary in the HSE rather than her salary in the NRB.

I must ask Mr. Ó Briain to conclude, as we are under time constraints.

Mr. Rossa Ó Briain

My resources have been diminished six times by the State. While I do not have the time, I could detail each situation and my feelings on it ad nauseam. My resources are being attacked by the HSE. The final attack is due in 2016 when, at the age of 65 years, I will be told that I will not get the full lump sum to which I would have been due upon retirement based on my full service because I received some of it in 2000. I needed to use the money I received in 2000 to survive for the nine months following my unemployment brought about by the NRB. I did not have the choices referred to, such as being consulted and so on. My seniority allowed me to go to Comhairle. The provisions of section 29 of the Comhairle Act 2000 were removed in my case and I was told that no one wanted me, that I would go to FÁS despite it never having been mentioned and that I would work there for 16 years. This broke the camel’s back. If I retired on medical grounds, the strain and stress under which I was kept by the NRB was outrageous.

I hope everyone believes that an opportunity has been given to make presentations and to answer questions. No more than Deputy Aylward, I am not a judge or legal expert. This is clearly a complicated issue. We will do what has been recommended by the members of the committee, which is to address the issue——

I apologise for interrupting the Vice Chairman. If a person must take a €7,000 per annum reduction in the wages he or she received in the original employment, does that not constitute a change of status? We have been told that such persons lost no rights. Is this not a lost right?

Again, that opens up many questions.

It is one straightforward question.

Does one of the witnesses wish to address that?

Ms Patsy Carr

In the case of a break in employment, the legislation provides that in the case of a first move, for redeployment only, one's rights are protected. I reiterate, on the question of the difference between abolition of the office and when the new posts are taken up, no abolition of office occurs where a post is transferred and no redundancy occurs where offices are taken up. That is the factual position.

We have a difference of opinion on that which we will not resolve today. We are trying to understand it ourselves.

We understand the difference of opinion.

The emphasis used to be on mainstreaming. There are people who felt that they wanted to participate in that, in terms of motivation and from the perspective of their career. Some people felt strongly that where the job description to which they were moving, perhaps even in the same grade, did not have the same protection, it was more than they could bear for the remainder of their working life. That is where the issues remain. We must devise some type of mechanism where the outstanding issues can be dealt with independently and rationally. This may be a job for the committee. However, we are not a court and we cannot be seen to act as such. We have heard the contributions from both sides but, ultimately, people far better qualified than we will end up dealing with this. It is something we will have to discuss.

I do not accept the point that no legal lacuna exists. It was not a member of this committee or a member of the National Rehabilitation Board who decided that a legal lacuna existed. That was determined by the High Court. It was pointed out that the Oireachtas was the only arm of the State that could deal with this, by way of legislation. We should bear that in mind.

I probably know the answer to my question before I even ask it. In order to get this issue resolved, by whatever third party or independent mechanism is required, there must be co-operation on both sides. I do not know who will make a decision as to whether the Department will participate in this process. After listening to both sides, there is one key question. Was there or was there not an abolition? Were the posts abolished and was the office abolished? We have a difference of opinion on that. If we did not, we would not be here. Will the departmental officials come back to us to say whether they would be prepared to agree to the appointment of a mediator approved by both sides? Notwithstanding the myriad issues attached to it, if this one issue is resolved, a solution will probably also be found for the lesser issues.

I do not know whether anybody wants to answer that question today. It might be unfair to expect that.

Is the Department willing to allow an arbitrator to look again at both sides?

The officials may not feel they can answer that question but may do so if they wish.

Ms Simonetta Ryan

I am not sure I am in a position to answer. From our perspective, the posts were not abolished. We were in receipt of legal advice throughout the process, even on today's submissions by former NRB employees. It is very unlikely we would be prepared to become involved in a mediating process on something we do not accept is an issue.

If both sides were sent to a senior counsel with expertise in this area of law, would the National Rehabilitation Board be prepared to abide by what he or she said?

Ms Simonetta Ryan

The legal adviser to the Government is the Attorney General and we take our advice from him. I do not mean that in a rude way. I presume the joint committee takes its own advice.

It is difficult to expect people to answer such questions in the circumstances. The committee will meet again to discuss the issue and will make recommendations. I hope people are satisfied with this.

Can we do that sooner rather than later, while the presentations are fresh in our minds?

The next meeting will be held on 10 June; therefore, we could discuss the issue on that date. I thank everybody for giving of their time.

Mr. Rossa Ó Briain

The Attorney General and the Chief State Solicitor advised the Minister for Health and Children to pay me an abolition of office pension because my job had been abolished. I did the same job as 55 other people and we have the same legal adviser.

We understand.

The joint committee adjourned at 5.45 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 10 June 2008.
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