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JOINT COMMITTEE ON HEALTH AND CHILDREN debate -
Tuesday, 16 Jun 2009

Medical Devices: Discussion with Irish Medical and Surgical Trade Association.

I welcome from the Irish Medical and Surgical Trade Association, Mr. Justin Carty, executive director, Ms Sarah-Jane Larkin, vice-chairman, and Mr. Richard Devereaux-Phillips, head of government and industry affairs. Before I begin I would like to draw their attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege the same privilege does not extend to witnesses and they are advised against making any comment or criticism against a named official or a person outside of the House in any manner as to make him or her identifiable.

We will hear a brief presentation from the delegation, go to the members for questions and then back to the delegation for concluding remarks.

Mr. Justin Carty

I thank the committee for accepting our request to present on medical devices, reducing costs and improving the quality of life for Irish patients. We appreciate that the committee has a very full agenda and its meeting with us is especially welcome. The Irish Medical and Surgical Trade Association, IMSTA, represents companies that provide medical devices to all sections of the Irish health care system. We do not represent pharmaceutical companies. Although IMSTA was formed in 1982, an executive was only put in place in 2008. We are in a new phase in our development and, as such, we are only now reaching out to engage with key stakeholders.

Our wide range of products is used in every part of the health care system and include, for example, protective gloves for surgery, beds for intensive care units, stents and remote pacemaker monitoring systems, among many thousands of devices supplied every day. We wish to brief the committee on the contribution that the medical device supply industry makes to the Irish health care system and how we can assist and support the delivery of more cost-effective health care and reduce the pressure on accident and emergency units and in-patient care throughout the country.

Every day of the week our products help patients through earlier diagnosis, less invasive procedures and more effective treatments. I ask members to take a moment to consider what our hospitals would be like if we did not have defibrillators, pacemakers, insulin pumps, surgical gloves or CT and MRI scanning equipment. More patients could die prematurely, in-patient stays could be weeks rather than days and total health care costs would be even greater.

At present approximately 2,000 representatives and support personnel from our companies liaise with supporting clinicians and nurses in every hospital in the country. We also liaise with the HSE, hospitals and health and community care centres. The flexibility of our member companies ensures that cash-stretched hospitals continue to get vital medical devices. We have a deep knowledge of the health care system in Ireland and access to the experience and knowledge of our colleagues working throughout the world. Therefore, we find it extremely frustrating when the procurement arm of the HSE and the Department of Health and Children make vital budget planning decisions without involving the industry.

As a result we are faced with ultimatums to freeze prices, reductions in the number of medical devices contracted for, cancellation of capital contracts already awarded and even a recent call for a 10% price reduction on all business transacted with hospitals. While appreciating the constraints imposed by the economic downturn, these ultimatums are very frustrating for us, especially when one considers that the devices we supply and provide cover for 24 hours a day seven days a week, reduce procedure times, improve healing rates, prevent health care associated infections and in all cases reduce the length of stay in hospital.

By working with the HSE and the Department of Health and Children we can share our international experience and find ways to ensure patients get the care they are entitled to within the constraints of the current economic climate. We are baffled that the health services would opt to cut back on purchasing medical technology. Such actions do not contribute to cost reductions; they effectively increase the costs and let me explain. If one stops purchasing insulin pumps for those with type 1 diabetes they will require increased monitoring, more in-patient care and increased demands on accident and emergency facilities.

Advances in both CT and MRI scanning technologies have provided practitioners with minute diagnostic detail which can result in minimally invasive surgery being employed reducing the risk to the patient and the length of his or her stay in hospital and ultimately it reduces the cost to the health authority. Prevention is better than cure and costs much less in the long run. We believe that if the HSE and the Department of Health and Children include our industry early in the planning process we can contribute to improving services and reducing costs.

The other issue we wish to raise with the committee is the Government's commitment to paying invoices received by Departments and State agencies within the 45-day timeframe as set out in the Prompt Payment of Accounts Act 1997. Medical device companies contribute billions of euro to the Irish economy every year and medical devices account for €6.2 billion in exports. More than 28,000 people are employed by medical device companies in Ireland. Our industry provides sustainable long-term high value-added employment. However, our industry continues to struggle to receive payment for products supplied within the legal timeframe. IMSTA estimates that the medical device supply industry alone is owed more than €25 million for invoices over 45 days. We welcome the Taoiseach's commitment to ensure that all Government invoices will be paid within 15 days and we ask that this is implemented as soon as possible. Any further delays on payment could have a significant impact on the sustainability of jobs in the industry.

Irish people are working on the research, development, manufacturing and marketing of the latest technology in medical devices. This new technology is available in health care systems throughout the world. We believe that our own population should benefit from early access to the best medical advances available. Modern treatments and medical devices are crucial to the success of public health service providers in Ireland. The procurement process must be focused on delivering the best value for money in terms of patient outcomes and total cost of care. This approach will reduce health care costs and have a positive impact on Government finances.

The Department of Health and Children and the HSE must embrace medical technology as a critical enabler in the delivery of cost-effective high-quality care. They must ensure that there is a clear and rapid pathway for new technologies to be purchased. IMSTA members are concerned that further blunt cost cutting will lead to reduced patient access to cost-effective medical devices, have an overall negative impact on health care expenditure and create further job losses in the industry. We want to ensure that service levels are maintained and therefore we are calling for formal engagement between Government and industry to identify opportunities for co-operation that bring benefits for patients and service users, health and social care services and industry. We would very much appreciate the support of the committee in seeking a meeting with the Minister, Deputy Harney, and Professor Drumm and in addressing the late payment issue so our members can get paid for medical devices which have already been used to treat patients.

I thank Mr. Carty. That was very succinct.

I am trying to understand the finances of this. Is Mr. Carty speaking about a budget empire building situation whereby somebody is watching his or her own specific narrow budget which is for buying medical devices and that if a broader approach to budgeting was taken that money might be saved in terms of the length of time patients are in hospital? Is that the case Mr. Carty is making or is he making the case for spending more money within the budget of specific acute hospitals?

I presume this is an association of private companies. Is every company supplying medical and surgical products part of the group? Does the group represent all of Ireland or are there companies outside of the group?

I refer to monopolisation. Does the association control the supply of all the equipment and can it dictate the price? We are all looking for value for money, particularly during the recession. That is the name of the game at present. I presume the association is not requesting more money but asking that the committee approach Professor Drumm and the Minister to put a better system in place to supply medical devices. We are trying to determine exactly what the association is looking for. What is the association's aim and what can the committee do to help?

I agree with the concept of paying within 15 days; that is a good method by which to run any business. How long do suppliers wait at present for bills to be paid after invoices are sent out?

Could the delegation expand on the research element of the industry?

I welcome the delegation. I share Deputy Aylward's concern over competitiveness. What is the mark-up on the devices being sold? I am from Monaghan, which is very close to the Border. What is the price differential between the Republic and the North? On the issue of value for money, if prices are more competitive elsewhere, the laws of economics state customers will buy elsewhere.

I appreciate Deputy Aylward's remark that everybody is considering costs at present and trying to obtain better value for money. We must become more competitive. During the good times, we became uncompetitive and lost our edge. We need to reverse this.

I, too, welcome the commitment that invoices sent to Government and State agencies will be paid within 15 days. This is long enough for suppliers to wait. We would certainly not want to do anything that would have a negative impact on jobs in the industry. If having to wait for invoices to be paid is a considerable factor, it can be addressed quite quickly.

I welcome the delegation. I apologise for my having had to watch the presentation on the monitor in my office but I had a little crisis in Tallaght to deal with. I listened very carefully and was struck by the by-line on the association's document, "Reducing costs and improving the quality of life for Irish patients". It certainly attracted my attention and it is important that we consider it.

What relationship has the association with the HSE? With regard to the proposals it is making, what can it say to the HSE in respect of saving money? Colleagues have put this in a different way. I presume an issue arises for the HSE with regard to reducing costs. How is this dealt with? I suspect that if the delegates were to approach the HSE as it has approached us and talk about reducing costs and improving the quality of life for Irish patients, attention would be attracted, although one can never tell with the HSE. I wish the delegates well in this regard.

This committee will always say it is under pressure dealing with groups and inviting organisations before it. The one before us is a different kind of group and we are engaged in a useful exercise that allows us to see what is being talked about in the marketplace. On that basis, I am happy to participate and welcome the group.

I thank the delegation for its presentation. Is the IMSTA saying the HSE is being penny wise but pound foolish and failing to use technologies and medical appliances and devices that could expedite patient discharge? It is being quite critical of the HSE in that there are people at the cutting edge who are creating products that might be of benefit but which are not being availed of. Could the delegates comment on this in addition to the other members' questions?

Ms Sarah-Jane Larkin

I will respond to some of those questions and my colleagues might answer any I do not cover. With regard to the value of medical devices, we are here today to discuss patient access to the most cost-effective medical devices. Clearly, obtaining the best value for money through procurement is entirely the role of the HSE. We support it in this regard. We are here because, from working in many hospitals, we see examples of where the best value for money is not always obtained. Where the focus is on a limited budget and seeking reduced costs in one area, it may not have a positive impact on the overall health care budget. If, for example, one cuts back on the budget for heart stents by a percentage, necessitating the purchase of fewer, one may save on the up-front cost but it should be borne in mind that if a patient needs a coronary bypass as a consequence, it will cost €20,000. We are talking about being a resource to the HSE rather than a cost and trying to work with it to deliver the best access and value for patients in the health care system.

Mr. Justin Carty

Medical devices are not commodities and cannot be procured, as such. In these straitened times, while it may appear a good idea on the surface to reduce expenditure on medical devices, it is imperative that one be able to determine their proper value in the delivery of health care. It is not always appreciated that the up-front capital cost might, in the longer term, result in a substantial benefit, not only to the budget controller in a particular department but to the public at large and the public health system.

There are several examples of devices that reduce substantially the length for which one stays in hospital. In intensive care units, patients are put on life-support systems, commonly known as ventilators. The typical stay for somebody on a ventilator could be from four to five days. If the right technology is procured, this time could be reduced by one to three days. Granted that the cost of an intensive care unit bed is between €1,800 and €2,000 per day, one could save €4,500 on the bed alone, never mind the saving on the consumables used. By procuring medical devices that could offer the best outcomes in the longer term, a net reduction in the health care cost could be achieved.

Is the problem that there is nobody in the HSE willing to engage with the IMSTA in a discussion on the checks and balances associated with saving money as opposed to a discussion on somebody's narrow ring-fenced budget?

Ms Sarah-Jane Larkin

That is certainly an issue. Budgeting is devolved such that somebody who makes a saving in respect of his or her own budget does not necessarily make a saving for the system overall.

Mr. Justin Carty

We are in a new stage of development ourselves although we have been in operation for 27 years. We have been trying very hard to engage with the HSE, particularly in respect of procurement. While we hope to make progress in the near future, we felt we should appear before the committee and ask for direction.

Are the suppliers in the IMSTA in competition?

Mr. Justin Carty

One of our principal goals is to encourage competition in the market. Our association is one of medical devices supply companies. Some of the members are also manufacturers of the devices while many others are SMEs or owner-managed businesses. The association represents 60% to 70% of the industry. Businesses subscribe voluntarily to become members of the association.

If one is not the manufacturer or producer, is one simply the retailer?

Ms Sarah-Jane Larkin

In many cases, it is the servicer of a piece of equipment that requires support within the hospital setting. For example, sterilisation equipment requires local servicing personnel although the manufacturer may not be based here.

Mr. Justin Carty

A typical member company would resource the latest medical technology, train nursing staff, clinical engineers and other health care professionals and, critically, assist clinicians in the use of medical technology. They add a substantial value to the medical devices acquired.

The delegation has two requests to make of the committee. First, it wants us to raise the matter with the Minister, Deputy Harney, and Professor Drumm. We will discuss this request after the delegates have left. Second, it wants to refer to the issue of prompt payments. The HSE should adhere to the prompt payments Act.

Ms Sarah-Jane Larkin

We have not answered the question on research. While many medical devices are manufactured in Ireland, their life cycles and the way in which they are researched differ from the situation obtaining in the field of pharmaceuticals, where research is conducted in a clinical laboratory over several years. A medical device is improved on in an iterative way in respect of the clinician using it. Many clinicians who are using medical devices researched and manufactured in Ireland contribute to the process of further development.

Is the HSE abiding by the new regulations on prompt payment or is it still in breach? I assume they have been enacted.

Mr. Justin Carty

A substantial number of our member companies have invoices that have been outstanding for more than 60 or 90 days. The figure cited today of €25 million relates to the amount outstanding over 45 days. We quoted that period because it is the legally required time within which to pay under the Act.

I will give a brief example. One of the largest costs in health care is the hospital stay. Many new technologies — minimal invasive or "keyhole" surgery — reduce procedure and recovery times and get patients out. Members may remember that, not too long ago, "The Late Late Show" previewed the da Vinci robot. A lady had a hysterectomy on Thursday, yet was sitting in the audience on Friday. Ordinarily, it would have taken——

I could not see a man doing that.

A man probably would not have had the surgery.

Is there a considerable difference between private and public patients in terms of for how long they await these devices?

Mr. Justin Carty

No. Some of the minimal invasive surgery can be used for removing kidneys through single incisions in, for example, belly buttons. Single incision laparoscopic surgery requires a single hole, but it can be used for several other procedures.

The medical technology in question, much of which is developed in Ireland, should be more readily available. There should be a system, a clear and rapid pathway, for accessing the market. If technology reduces the length of hospital stays or the incidence of infection, further investments in it would be a cost saving.

Does Mr. Devereaux-Phillips wish to conclude?

Mr. Richard Devereaux-Phillips

As members will immediately gather from my accent, I am not a native of this fine country, but I hope the committee will quickly grapple with the issue of silo budgeting. Deputy Charlie O'Connor's point on what the HSE could do for us reverts to our request for ongoing dialogue. I can contribute some international experience. In the UK, there is a formal dialogue between the Government, industry and the Department of Health through various bodies, one of which is the Ministerial Medical Technologies Strategy Group, MMTSG. This is a forum for the discussion of important, high-level issues. If there are issues with procurement, manufacturers will not be written to and be told to cut prices across the board. Rather, the forum acts as a formal mechanism through which manufacturers and the Government can be brought together. Views on evidence-based purchasing and a single evaluation pathway have resulted from the process. Jointly, industry and the Department of Health have devised a way of ensuring that the health service accesses cost effective technologies as appropriately and as soon as possible, those being technologies that deliver benefits for patients.

Are members happy? If they could remain for a few minutes, we will have a brief chat. I thank the delegates for their presentation and we will assist them in any way that we can.

Mr. Justin Carty

I thank the Chairman.

Ms Sarah-Jane Larkin

I thank the committee for its time.

The joint committee went into private session at 5.35 p.m. and adjourned at 5.40 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 30 June 2009.
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