Skip to main content
Normal View

JOINT COMMITTEE ON HEALTH AND CHILDREN debate -
Thursday, 3 May 2012

Breast Implants: Discussion (Resumed)

Apologies have been received from Senators Imelda Henry, John Gilroy and Marc MacSharry.

I welcome the witnesses to the public session of our meeting. I remind members and those in the Gallery that all mobile phones should be switched off completely for the duration of this meeting as they interfere with the recording equipment in the committee room, which is unfair to both members of the public and the members of staff who operate the sound system.

I welcome Dr. Tony Holohan, chief medical officer, Department of Health, Ms Susan Reilly, patient safety and quality unit, and Ms Eithne Barron, patient safety and quality unit, to our meeting. As members will recall, we had an earlier meeting on this matter and we have invited Dr. Holohan to update us on PIP silicone breast implants and the use of non-medical grade silicone.

I remind everyone that witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice and rulings of the Chair to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Dr. Tony Holohan

I am joined by Ms Susan Reilly and Ms Eithne Byrne from the patient safety and quality unit. I thank the Chairman and the committee for the opportunity to speak with them on this subject. I will keep my introductory statement as brief as possible and I will be happy to reply to any questions and comments as best I can.

I am aware that my colleagues in the Irish Medicines Board, IMB, met with the committee on 29 March last and provided it with a comprehensive assessment of the current position on the regulation of medical devices and the Irish Medicines Board's role in regard to that. I am here to discuss the way the Department is working to ensure follow-up health care for the concerned women who received poly-implant prostheses, PIP, breast implants. Our priority at all times has been to ensure the safety and quality of services for the women concerned and we fully appreciate the anxiety and the concern this has generated. The Minister has requested that better information be put in place for people who in good faith use non-State service providers, especially for cosmetic surgery. He is also anxious to ascertain if anything more can be done in the short to medium term to alleviate the concerns of the women who received PIP implants, and both of those matters are being progressed, as I will detail.

By way of background brief to this issue, in March 2010 the Irish Medicines Board was informed by the French medical device regulatory authority, the Agency for the Safety of Health Products, that it had suspended the manufacture, marketing, distribution and export of PIP products. As members are aware, that company is now in receivership. Recall of these implants was taken following an inspection of its manufacturing plant when it was found that most implants manufactured were filled with an unauthorised industrial grade silicone gel which differs in composition from the originally approved material.

The IMB immediately instructed the three clinics in Ireland which received these devices to cease the use of the products, and they identified those by tracking the devices through the distribution chain, in this case a company called Cloverleaf. The board does not have information on individual patients. That is how they identified the distribution of these services.

In November 2010 the IMB instructed the clinics to identify and contact women who had been implanted with PIP silicone gel implants after 1 January 2001 to advise them of the issue and to provide reassurance that there is no current evidence of health risks associated with those implants. Hospital C did not write to its clients in Ireland in November 2010 when instructed to do so by the Irish Medicines Board, having stated in writing that it did do so. In the meantime it has written to all of its clients and has apologised to me and to the Irish Medicines Board for its misleading information.

After confirmation in April 2011 that there was no evidence of genotoxicity or chemical toxicity associated with the filler material in these implants, the French authorities confirmed that there may still be an increased risk of rupture.

In December 2011 the French media highlighted reports of cancer associated with PIP implants and the suggested association. The French authorities set up an expert committee to examine the issue.

On 23 December last year, the French ministry of health issued a statement indicating that there was no evidence to date of increased risk of cancer for women with this brand of implant and, as a preventive measure, suggested consideration of removal of the implants having regard to the risk of ruptures and inflammatory reactions.

The Irish Medicines Board tracks the number of implants and their dispersal to treating clinics via the product's United Kingdom distributors. As members are aware, approximately 1,500 Irish women were implanted with these devices through the different providers in Ireland. On 15 March of this year the IMB received further information from the French competent authority for medical devices suggesting that PIP silicone gel implants manufactured before 2001 may also have contained the unapproved non-medical grade silicone. Current information suggests that in the region of an additional 50 Irish recipients could be affected and as further information becomes available, the IMB has given an undertaken to make that available in public and to any potential women concerned.

Our current advice to women, which is based on the available scientific evidence, is that there is no evidence of increased risk of cancer for women with this implant; that the risk of rupture, at least in terms of reported rates to date, is within expected norms; that routine explantation without any other clinical considerations is not currently recommended; and that anyone with a concern about their breast implants should discuss those matters in the first instance with their general practitioner or their surgeon and be guided by that clinical assessment.

The Irish Medicines Board has advised that as of mid-April of this year, 138 ruptures of PIP breast implants have been reported. Reports received indicate that ruptures have occurred at or between one month to eight years following implantation. Factors that can contribute to the rupture rate seen include the fact that there is recent intensive patient follow-up, as members are aware, use of additional diagnostic scans, the length of time since implantation, which is lengthy in the case of some patients, and more active reporting by individual surgeons given the heightened awareness.

I refer to the European Scientific Committee on Emerging and Newly Identified Health Risks report of 1 February 2012, which is a scientific report. The report stated that all silicone breast implants can fail, regardless of the manufacturer, and the probability of failure increases with time since implantation. It is a matter of record that our general advice to surgeons is that this should be a matter of information provided to people in terms of informed consent when they are being provided with these procedures.

The committee also stated that estimates of breast implant rupture prevalence range widely, in part because of the methods of estimating rupture prevalence rates which differ among studies. On average, it is estimated that there is approximately a 10% to 15% rupture risk within ten years of the original implantation.

The European Union Commission is currently reviewing the regulatory framework for medical devices deriving from three EU directives. The Commission expects to publish its proposal for new medical devices later this year. The IMB has continued to liaise with European and international authorities on this issue and receives ongoing up-to-date information on testing conducted to date.

Referring back to the Irish situation and the women concerned, on the basis of the information we had received directly from individual patients through direct representations and representations with public representatives, we became concerned that women were finding it difficult to receive appropriate follow-up care through the various service providers. For that reason I sought to meet with each of the individual providers, which I have done. The response to the patients who received PIP implants in hospital A has been comprehensive and commenced at the time of notification in 2010, in other words, not when this became a matter of public concern in late 2011 but in 2010 when first alerted by the regulatory authorities. The service it has provided meets with the expectations I would have for women who find themselves in a situation through no fault of their own.

Hospital B, which did not respond as early as hospital A, also appears now to have largely dealt with the concerned women. The responses of both hospitals A and B, which together account for approximately 400 of the women involved, show that our expectations of the service they should receive are reasonable in that they have been met by those providers without incurring additional cost to the State and without involving any excessive delay for the women concerned. Those centres account for very few of the many concerns and complaints raised with the Department directly. That view would also echo the experience of the PIP Action Group. However, I have been much more concerned about the response by hospital C, both in terms of its delay in responding to the initial IMB correspondence and difficulties experienced by patients in accessing their clinical information and appropriate clinical follow-up. Over recent weeks, I have had very serious discussions and intense negotiations with hospital C to broker a better response and clinical care for the women concerned. During these negotiations, I continually emphasised the Department's belief that the company has an obligation to discharge its duties to its clients as the other providers have done.

I have been advised by the relevant provider in recent days that it recognises the shortfall in service it has provided to date. It is now developing a new care plan to provide for an early surgical consultation for all the women concerned who have received PIP breast implants, specifically at my request. All the women concerned will be offered an early face-to-face consultation with the surgeon and will have the option of breast implant removal. The removal of implants will be prioritised according to whether a rupture has been identified.

While the proposed care plan is to be welcomed as an improvement in the services offered by the company to date, I must stress that significant detail remains to be clarified with the Department. We are liaising continually with the company and the relevant provider on this matter. As late as early this morning, I received assurances from the company that it acknowledges and accepts that it has a duty of care to the women concerned and that it is fully dedicated to helping its PIP implant patients as much as it can. I intend to follow up with the provider to ensure it follows through on its commitment to me and, more important, its commitment to the woman who are its patients. I am happy to keep the committee advised on progress regarding that. Our first concern is that the women receive the service they require and, second, that the provider, not the taxpayer, will meet the cost of that provision.

Along with my colleagues from the IMB, I met the PIP action group on 23 March last and discussed its very reasonable concerns. The meeting was very constructive and the focus was almost exclusively on one provider, hospital C. The meeting identified a number of follow-on activities that the Department has subsequently engaged in to help the women in their unsatisfactory dealings with the provider. I have arranged to meet the group again and will be doing so tomorrow morning. I will discuss in more detail the provider's proposed care plan. Tomorrow morning's meeting was arranged before I was invited to attend this meeting this morning.

Members of the committee are concerned about the current lack of regulation of private cosmetic surgery providers in Ireland. Officials at the Department are currently working on licensing of health care facilities legislation which will provide for a mandatory system of licensing of both public and private health care service providers. The legislative proposals are being prepared broadly in line with the recommendations made by the Madden commission in 2008 and are designed to improve patient safety by ensuring health care providers do not operate below core standards that are applied consistently and systematically.

The intention is to have a proportionate system that has the confidence of the public. Standards and other requirements will be enforceable through inspection and the imposition of sanctions, as necessary. Licensing will be targeted at areas that are not currently subject to regulation. It is expected that outline proposals for the new system of licensing will be finalised by the end of the current year.

I cannot emphasise strongly enough the need for individuals planning to undergo cosmetic surgery, at home or abroad, to bear in mind some important guidelines before they undertake any procedure. These guidelines were first placed on the Department's website in November 2010 and are worth repeating today. Individuals considering cosmetic surgery should initially discuss the issue with their general practitioner to ensure they are suitable candidates for the procedure in question. The general practitioner will have knowledge of specialist doctors in the area and would help to choose the one most appropriate for the individual. Furthermore, the general practitioner would be able to help to interpret any claims made in advertisements about cosmetic surgery.

A service should not be chosen on the basis of price alone and people should always check that the procedure will be carried out by a person who is registered for the conduct of such a procedure. In Ireland, this can easily be checked through the Medical Council and its website. Many countries have professional regulatory authorities similar to the Medical Council. If an individual is considering surgery outside Ireland, it is highly recommended that he or she check with the regulatory authority in the state in question. Prior to any surgery, individuals should identify what follow-up care and medical support will or may be needed after surgery has been completed, by whom and how it will be provided. This is where the difficulty arises with regard to the women in question. In recent weeks, I have been in discussions with the Irish Association of Plastic Surgeons with a view to updating our recommendations and placing a public joint revised statement on the Department's website. We will be meeting the association again in the coming days.

As chief medical officer, my primary focus is on obtaining the best care for the women who received PIP breast implants. I will continue to work with my colleagues in the IMB and the treating clinics to ensure the best outcome for the women concerned. I will be happy to appear before the committee at a later stage to discuss how matters have progressed. I thank the members for the opportunity to address them. I will be happy to deal with questions they may have.

I thank Dr. Holohan for his comprehensive report and probing and thought-provoking presentation. He will note the members agree it is important that the women receive the service, care and support they require, and the provider, rather than the taxpayer, meet the cost. I commend Dr. Holohan on his views on those who are responsible and who must be held to account. I welcome Dr. Honohan's meeting with the PIP action group tomorrow. I would very much welcome his comments on cosmetic surgery.

I thank the Chairman. I thank Dr. Holohan for his presentation and welcome the witnesses.

This issue came about because low-grade or industrial-grade silicone was being used. There are 1,500 Irish women affected and some of them have concerns about the potential health risks. Has the Department established proper contact with other countries where the breast implants were inserted? It is difficult to identify potential risks in Ireland given the small number of people affected. The more who are included in observations, the better. Further data would be of benefit to us in making a final assessment as to whether there is a potential risk. To date, the view of the Department and the IMB has been that there are no health risks for women. However, while there may be no physical risks, there could be psychological risks and damage. We have met some of the women who are advocating that assistance and support be given to them. While we claim there are no physical health risks, we should acknowledge there could be psychological damage, upset and trauma in some cases.

Even if women are satisfied that there is no evidence of an increased risk of cancer among women with the implants, they are still struggling to deal with the issue. Is removal an option? If so, who would carry out the procedure? Does the State regard itself as having any obligation to help women who believe their breast implants should be removed? In the first instance, the service provider should offer the option of removal to the women. If this cannot be done and if the service provider is no longer in existence, the State should have some obligation in view of the fact that the providers in question were operating in the State without regulation. In 2008, the Madden report stated clearly there should be some regulation of the service providers.

Is the Department satisfied that there is sufficient co-operation from other countries, particularly France and Australia, where the breast implants were used quite widely? Will we be automatically informed if there is a risk in these countries, and will we inform them if a risk is identified here? Is the Department satisfied that the rupture rate is normal for silicone breast implants? What action, if any, can be taken against service providers with which the Department is not satisfied?

I thank Dr. Holohan and his team. I have a few questions for them. Within the plastic and breast surgery community, there is a feeling that the rate of rupture is probably higher with the products in question than with standard, acceptable products. The entire product was substandard. There is a sense the actual capsule was not of high quality, as well as the non-approved grade of silicone used. It is not entirely correct that there is a consensus that the rate of rupture is the same and within acceptable limits as the rate of rupture for approved products.

I support what Deputy Billy Kelleher said. I feel very strongly that the State is not a corporate entity but the embodiment of the wishes of a community. I am not pointing fingers at the Irish Medicines Board's approval process. There were lacunae in the way this was regulated and I know they will be addressed. However, the reality is that we have several women who, for whatever reason, have a substance within their bodies for which they never gave permission to put it there. No one ever gave informed consent to have industrial grade silicon placed in her body. People had a right to expect a duty of care on the part of the doctors and the institutions that anything given to them would be in accordance with medically proven standards.

On whether there is an increased cancer risk, I do not know if there is but, on balance, it is likely there is not. Silicone in breast implants that have leaked has not particularly been a cancer-causing substance. It is, however, entirely understandable that people have a right to the integrity of their bodies. If there is an item that should not be there and if it can be removed, it should be. That is why the State, with the full vigour of the law, must pursue those entities which are still in existence. We must say there is no discretion. We must mandate that if an individual who has gone through counselling and understands the risks and benefits of a second operation with the possible cosmetic implications wishes to have these things removed, that right should be absolute and that the entities in question must pay for it.

The problem arises with the entities which no longer exist. The State should provide the service. If a woman who has been appropriately counselled by an expert breast or plastic surgeon feels she is not happy with something placed in her body and wishes to have it removed, she must be regarded as a patient the same as any other with a medical problem that needs to be addressed. Many will make that choice. If someone involuntarily had a bullet placed in his or her body because he or she went into an area to which he or she should not go late at night, the State would not ask questions as to whether it was wise to take that risk in the first place. It would state the individual has a medical need, is entitled to medical care and has the right to have the bullet removed.

Will the delegation identify hospitals A, B and C? I cannot think of a reason we should not know that information.

Identifying the hospitals may be unfair.

I beg to differ with the Chairman. With great respect, this is a public committee and all members present are publically elected representatives. We have an obligation to ask the names of the hospitals in question. There has been an admission of a failure to act in accordance with the statutory request on the part of one of the institutions and one of them no longer exists. The people have a right to know which institutions did this.

No matter how much I feel as aggrieved, as the Senator does, as Chairman, I must point out representatives of the hospitals in question are not here to defend them.

I will gladly extend an invitation to them on the Chairman's behalf to address the committee. When we held preliminary discussions on this matter, we stated we might receive some specialist expert testimony from breast surgeons.

We can discuss that matter in private session afterwards. There is no problem with that.

Has the committee invited the Harley Medical Group and other service providers to attend the committee?

We have not yet done so. We have had two meetings so far. The third will be a follow-up meeting.

I call Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin and congratulate him on arranging a coffee morning for the Alzheimer Society of Ireland.

Thank you, Chairman. The congratulations are deservedly shared by members of our all-party mental health group. I acknowledge the work of Deputies Simon Harris, Maureen O' Sullivan, Dara Calleary and Senator Susan O'Keeffe in hosting the coffee morning and thank everyone for their support. It exceeded our expectations and we cleared €1,000 in donations for the Alzheimer Society of Ireland.

I apologise for missing the presentation by Dr. Holohan and his colleagues. If they have addressed any of the points I am prepared to put to them, I apologise once more.

I am glad we are addressing this issue again. On the last occasion we had the opportunity to have the issue aired for the first time. I know how much that was appreciated by the women concerned and the representatives we have met individually. Many members of the committee and Members across all shades of political opinion have had the opportunity to meet the PIP, poly-implant prostheses, campaigners, a very courageous group of women. This cannot be an easy issue for women on which to openly campaign and as such, I endorse their courageous efforts.

Clearly, what has been absent heretofore has been proper regulation. I understand a process of regulation and its enforcement for the various clinics is under way. In framing regulations and preparing for this clear requirement, it is important we engage with those who have been service users who have a critical and important contribution to make. Is this the case? If not, is there an intention to properly engage with the PIP voices? They have an important experience to share in the preparation of regulations.

It was not just the Harley Medical Group but also the others which were named at the last committee meeting. I remember there was no end to vexation with the conduct of some of the clinics and clinicians, their unpreparedness to properly co-operate with and their difficult and negative disposition towards the women concerned. This has to be addressed. As the elected voices of the people, we have a bounden responsibility to confront the issue.

While the introduction of regulations is a requirement, the most immediate issue is properly and humanely addressing the concerns of the women involved. It is not often that I can point to the health system north of the Border and in Britain as having done something to which we should aspire. The National Health Service, however, has indicated that where women affected by PIP are not receiving the co-operation of the clinics in question or the clinics have closed, which is also the case in this jurisdiction, and cannot access referrals, it will provide that service guaranteed. The National Health Service and the British Government, not the Northern Ireland Assembly per se, are pursuing the network of clinics which have failed the women in question. It ultimately goes back to the manufacturer of the less than acceptable and imperfect implantations. Are we willing to match this endeavour and effort to give peace of mind and comfort to the women concerned enduring such a serious trauma? There is not only the physical risk but also the considerable mental strain. Invariably, it is a cohort of young women who have young families and are coping with all of the stresses and strains that life presents at this time. This is not something they need. As a society, politically, across all shades of opinion, we should ensure their problems are not compounded by our inaction or unwillingness to be generous. My appeal is that we be generous in our response to their need.

I thank each of the officials for coming. I also thank them for their contributions and the work they have done to date on this issue. The questions I will ask may seem critical, but they are meant to be inquisitive because I appreciate they have put a great deal of time into this issue.

It is an appalling thing to have happened to anybody. When Senator John Crown speaks of women - I have met the women concerned - talking about having this alien thing that is affecting them psychologically more so than medically at this point, I cannot even begin to understand or appreciate their distress. It is incumbent on us all to ensure we alleviate it to the best of our abilities.

The first of my questions is on the European standard. The officials may know whether this has happened and if not, they can point me in the right direction. The particular company was given the CE stamp of approval, presumably on the basis that its manufacturing plant had been inspected beforehand. How long was it before it was uncovered that there was a different grade of silicon being used in the company's manufacturing facility which caused the other series of events that have led us to where we are today? What is the normal inspection process? Is it stringent enough? Do we inspect rigidly enough? What sanctions, if any, are imposed on organisations which break the rules to ensure this type of thing does not happen again?

My second question relates to the response of the medical practitioners and that of the Department of Health. I agree with my colleagues that hospitals A, B and C should be named. If they have a problem with how we feel about how they have treated their patients or what we have said, they are welcome to come back to defend themselves.

We will invite them.

My difficulty is that their defence has been in public, but no amount of talk or waffle from them at this stage will excuse their actions in the past few years, from blackmail clauses to lying directly to the patients they were proposing to help, which beggars belief. They were backpedalling and making an attempt to protect their own bottom line - their profits. When the Department meets the people concerned to express its outrage at their activities and actions, what teeth does it have? I appreciate that the licensing of health facilities Bill is being drafted, but what teeth does the Department have today to impose sanctions or penalties on these practitioners when they act in such a manner? I note Dr. Holohan has stated that when he spoke to hospital B, it offered him an apology. While I appreciate that is a start, it is not worth a hoot to the 400 women who were mistreated by hospitals A and B.

I picture myself in the category of potential customer of these organisations. What is the Department's responsibility to women like me who are at home? With respect, while I hear what the officials are saying and appreciate that it is on the Department's website, if I was sitting at home flicking through my glossy magazines in which all of these wonderful improvements are advertised indicating what they would do to my life, I would not think about picking up the telephone to speak to my doctor or to go and have a chat with him or her or logging onto the Department's website. How is the Department communicating with me in a real and meaningful way to tell me how I should act? I am not avoiding the responsibility of the patron or women at home who are potential customers, but sometimes we make these decisions for reasons that are not medical. If I was sitting at home making this decision, it is not my doctor with whom I would discuss the issue but my pals and husband. That is the environment in which we make such decisions and, unfortunately, we are led by the glossy magazines and the promise of A, B, C or D happening. I wonder what responsibility does the Department have to proactively talk to women such as me at home about the guidelines they should be considering as opposed to the promises they may be viewing.

If Dr. Holohan could answer these questions, I would be grateful.

I thank Dr. Holohan for his comprehensive presentation. If someone decides to seek alternative advice or care, who covers the cost?

My other question is about the need for adequate insurance. Particularly in the case of hospital C, what is in place to ensure what happened will not be repeated? For instance, is there adequate insurance? If there are difficulties down the line - we have identified some difficulties in this area - who will pick up the tab for the care the women concerned will require? My understanding is that there is not adequate legislation in place to prevent a recurrence.

May I make one further brief point?

To follow-up on Deputy Regina Doherty's question about the sanctions that can be applied, it must be remembered that virtually every private health facility in the country derives approximately 80% of its income from VHI in which the Minister for Health is the sole shareholder.

Dr. Tony Holohan

If I happen to miss any of the questions asked, it is not intentional and I will be happy to respond, if prompted.

To reply to Deputy Kelleher, I agree that in many cases the major component is psychological. In that context, removal is clearly an option. The best means of progressing the matter is for the woman concerned to have face-to-face engagement with the clinician and come to a decision on what is best for her. Something we must keep in mind is the fact that a further procedure will involve general anaesthesia which is not risk free. In a given situation that involves surgery, it must be a balanced judgment between the benefits and the risks in the context of the woman's individual circumstances. If that is the view to which the clinician comes in conjunction with the woman conccerned, our belief is that the provider should make provision for that service to be provided.

On the question of whether we are satisfied that other countries are co-operating appropriately with us, the Irish Medicines Board has extensive engagement with its counterpart organisations in every other European country. It is also connected to similar organisations in other parts of the world, for example, in North America and Australia. It has extensive and ongoing access to information on cases, experience of rupture rates and the testing done on the integrity of individual samples. My understanding is that the chief executive of the Irish Medicines Board which is the responsible authority in this country gave the committee a comprehensive briefing on the details of this.

At a European level, the Health Security Committee also got involved in this issue. This is part of the process which led to the report to which I referred in my statement setting out the science that should inform a common platform in respect of what must be a scientifically driven response to the issue in European states.

With regard to the rupture rates we are seeing, the figure I gave was of the order of 1,500, although that is an approximation and not a precise figure of the number of women involved, given the way the figure is generated. Certainly, when one puts the figures together and having met the individual hospitals, there is no disputing that sort of broad assessment of the figures. We have 138 reported cases, which is in the region of 10%. Some of these implants would have been in place for the women concerned for periods of up to ten years, broadly speaking. We must take into account the factors I mentioned - for example, the heightened awareness both among women and practitioners of the possibility of rupture. The extent to which that makes a contribution, apparent or real, has to be considered.

Senator Crown referred to unco-operative providers. While I do not have a general difficulty and I am not trying to hide the names of individual hospitals, there is a particular reason which I will come back to as to why I have done this in the way I have. Three providers are involved in this jurisdiction and none of them is out of business, so to speak, and we have met each one of them. The response from one of them has been impressive in the sense that by the time we came to its door, and by the time this became a matter of public concern in the latter part of 2011, it had already proactively contacted the women involved and had provided services at its cost to the individual women. That is what is reflected in what we are hearing in terms of public concern and it is also reflected in the views the PIP action group shares with us.

The response of the second hospital was a little slower but it began to be proactive, from its point of view - in other words, we did not have to go chasing it - when this became a matter of public concern in late 2011, such that by the end of the first quarter of this year, it had effectively dealt with most of the women concerned. In broad terms, given we do not have an absolutely up-to-date figure, a one-month old figure from the major hospital - hospital A - suggests to us that in its service approximately 10% of the women who had been provided with implantation had come back for consultation which had led to a decision to re-implant, or rather to remove or explant. While that seems to be the burden from its point of view, I am not saying that 10% figure will not creep to a higher level.

I take the point that nobody gave informed consent. The women involved in this situation were the victims, first and foremost. To be fair to the surgeons and the providers involved, they would not have known fraud was committed by the French manufacturing company, and it is very difficult in any process of regulation to fully insulate oneself from the conduct of fraud. However, there is a clear duty of care, notwithstanding the fact the hospitals or surgeons, with the best will in the world, could not have known at the time of implantation that they were implanting something that was made in a fraudulent way. Nevertheless, they are still obliged to accept their duty of care to provide appropriate follow-up for these women and there should be no doubt their primary duty is to those women.

Our concern is in regard to hospital C, where the response has been much slower than would meet what I would be satisfied with as an acceptance of a duty of care and an appropriate follow-up. The reasonableness of the standard of expectation we have set for each of the hospitals is demonstrated by the fact two of the providers have already met that standard.

I have covered the question about entities that no longer exist. I know some entities that have provided services in the UK no longer exist but, to date, that has not proven to be an issue from our point of view. We have exhaustively established that these services were only provided through a modest number of private providers and not at all through the public services, unlike in the UK, where I understand there was some provision in the public services as part of reconstructive surgery for women who had breast cancer and so on.

In my opinion, and I am sure members will not disagree with me, the first basic standard that should be provided for women who have these concerns is that they should be able to make contact with their provider and receive a personal response in the sense of being able to talk to somebody who is in a position to intelligently answer their questions and offer them an early consultation at a clinical level with a consultant who is in a position to answer their reasonable questions. My interaction with hospital C has been very much about trying to secure a commitment in that regard, which is what I have now secured from it in the past couple of days, although that had not been forthcoming. One of the significant concerns I detected from meeting the PIP action group, who are a most impressive group of people in the way in which they put across their concerns, was that they were not able to get anything beyond a telephone discussion with somebody who was essentially answering the same questions and answers as were set out on the website.

Is Dr. Holohan confident it will deliver on that commitment?

Dr. Tony Holohan

I cannot say. What I am saying is that it has given a commitment. I am confident that we will follow this very closely to ensure it does deliver on that commitment. If we do not find it is delivering on that commitment satisfactorily, the State will then have to consider what we do next. I do not want to get too much into the specifics of that.

Dr. Tony Holohan

I am having an ongoing and difficult discussion in regard to the costs of all of this with that particular institution.

It is important the taxpayer does not have to fund the bill.

Dr. Tony Holohan

Absolutely. The first principle behind what we have been doing is that the individuals concerned, both medically and organisationally, have to fulfil their duties of care to the people concerned. The second principle is that the taxpayer's interest has to be protected, which is what has guided our response to date. However, we want to ensure that in pursuing the second objective, the first is also being met.

I have partly answered Deputy Ó Caoláin's question as to whether we have met the PIP action group. I am meeting it again tomorrow morning to give a further briefing, a meeting which had already been arranged before I was invited to appear at this committee meeting. As I said, they are a very impressive group of people. The stories they have told are quite different, certainly in regard to the circumstances of some of the women who had to take out loans to be able to afford the individual procedures and, as a consequence, were not in a position to deal with the financial impact at a personal level. This has very much informed our response and our sense of the need to pursue, if one likes, justice on their part with the individual provider.

On the question of the State stepping in and providing a response, in broad terms, every person who wishes to receive or who is referred for receipt of hospital services in this country has an entitlement under the existing framework of entitlements to hospital-based services, so people have that entitlement. What I would prefer to see is a situation whereby our primary efforts are focused on trying to ensure the three centres concerned, two of which have substantially delivered already, do not step back from what are their basic responsibilities, and this is what we are doing. In a sense, if we were to come forward with a very clear offer of what the State is going to do as a first step, my fear is that the provider concerned in this situation would simply step away from its obligations, which would not be in the interests of the women or the State. It is to get that balance right we have been working-----

It is outrageous and shows the audacity of people who call themselves medical professionals that they would not respond in a humane way to what is obviously a crisis. While I totally appreciate they did not cause it or enter into it knowingly, even those who have acted admirably have not acted without a little bit of a push to do so. However, for the people Dr. Holohan is talking about now, if he has to say he feels he could not push them to do what is right because they might skip town or close their suitcase-----

Dr. Tony Holohan

I do not disagree with that in any way. I point out that one hospital had already dealt with many of its patients before this became a matter of public concern, and it did not require us to make the telephone call and have the difficult conversation.

Then we should be naming it as well as the other ones.

Dr. Tony Holohan

I will come to naming them. As I said, I do not have a difficulty with that. Any of the pieces of information I have set out in regard to hospitals A, B and C are already matters of public knowledge and public information. I do not have difficulty about identifying them and I will do that.

With regard to European standards and the CE inspection, there is already acceptance at a European level that our system of monitoring and regulation for medical devices is not robust enough. That is the basis of the current work, which I understand is to be brought to some degree of finality during the Cypriot Presidency in the second half of this year. I am not an expert in the regulation of medical devices. That is the responsibility of the Irish Medicines Board. There is an acceptance that the same standard applying to regulation of medicines may not apply to medical devices. That is the basis of the work going on at European level to strengthen those systems. I stress again the difficulty of creating a regulatory environment where fraud of this nature can be eliminated. We can all understand this would be very difficult and challenging for regulatory authorities.

From meeting the women concerned, I heard they were being asked to sign consents from some organisations that would, in effect, waive the right of the individual to further action, etc. I pointed out to those women and representatives from the hospitals that such a process is not informed consent, as informed consent would be arrived at on the basis of free information and without duress being applied to individuals. Any medical practitioner pursuing informed consent in the manner outlined would have a problem with the Irish Medical Council and the existing guidelines. In terms of regulation in this area, there is regulation in that every provider of medical services in this country must be a registered medical practitioner with the Irish Medical Council. Every person who was provided a service in the State or had the PIP implants inserted in this State would have had the work done by practitioners registered with the Irish Medical Council. There is a mechanism of sanction with regard to those individuals, and I have pointed that out to the women concerned. I have also had discussions on their behalf with people on the Irish Medical Council.

There was a broader question from a Government perspective of the type of teeth we have, as it were. In dealing with this I have not confined myself to the set of formal regulatory powers available but have written to representatives of the hospitals and asked them to answer difficult questions. I do not have formal authority to do so but I have found that people are responding to questions. The concern of hospitals to protect their reputation has helped me in bringing them to the table and getting a response. I am not saying for a second that we do not need to do more in the regulation of health care services generally, especially the services in this area which give rise to concern. We are already working on legislation in that regard. However, we are not limited in responding to issues. In the past there have been issues with which I have been personally involved, with concerns about standards of care regarding services in the private sector. That has not stopped us from getting into a position where we have intervened, leading to the discontinuation of services. Barringtons Hospital is a case in point.

Senator Burke asked who bears the cost. The original providers should do so as it should not be the women concerned or the taxpayer. I cannot say with confidence that this will ultimately happen, and as it stands, not all the providers are underwriting all the cost and providing all of the service. We are pursuing them to ensure that happens. The question of adequate insurance will be dealt with through licensing legislation, and it is a clear point. Nevertheless, I am no expert on legislation and my understanding, for example, with the travel insurance industry, is that there are requirements on providers of travel to be appropriately insured and protect against certain eventualities. Similar standards could be seen in that context. Legislation is being worked on with regard to the question of indemnity and level of the individual practitioner, as well as requirements that may fall on individuals to be appropriately indemnified for the procedures they carry out.

Senator Crown's point referred to sanctions and the VHI, which is fair. I have no sense of the distribution. I believe a number of these women procured these services without any insurance, simply saving up and taking out loans. That is not necessarily in answer to the point.

There was a point in the presentation about the level of service, care and support given to the women. In the UK, the National Health Service has set up a dedicated helpline. Is there any proposal in our jurisdiction to follow that example?

Dr. Tony Holohan

There is none currently. I do not have any particular objection to doing so but we have met the representatives of the PIP action group and offered to hear any concerns at any time. We have had a number of direct representations to the Department and dealt with them as responsibly as we can. If I thought it would help, I would have no difficulty in doing what the Chairman mentioned. The front-line service response by the individual providers, and one in particular, which should have allowed people to pick up a telephone and have a discussion with somebody who could answer reasonable concerns arising from the public coverage of this issue, was not in place. I was keen to point this out as an area of concern from our perspective.

The answers have prompted other questions. I asked how the Department was engaging with the issue. I am not asking for millions of euro to be spent, with leaflets being sent to houses telling a buyer to beware. What small changes could be made to advertising standards or codes so that everybody who is advertising wares should include a smokers' warning, as it were, or advisory message? We are assuming, as purchasers of these services, that the people providing the services are at the same level as if patients were going to the Mater Hospital. If the people in these hospitals decide, for some strange reason, that they are done speaking to Dr. Tony Holohan and are moving to the Swahili coast, the witness has described a scenario where nothing can be done. There are no sanctions other than removing the registration of the doctor or practitioner from the Irish Medical Organisation. If the doctor is gone, what difference will that make?

Is the witness satisfied that the new licensing of health facilities Bill will address this issue? How many health facilities in the country, apart from the three involved in this issue, are practising in a way where the Department has no teeth, so to speak, if they act inappropriately?

My questions are broadly in the same realm as Deputy Doherty's remarks. There must be serious concern about the regulatory arrangements, as there is a continuation of service provision not only in these clinics but perhaps in other settings that are not regulated within this jurisdiction. These are services directly affecting the health and well-being of people, which is intolerable. We do not need a long process of consideration, although I ask for an elaboration on the response detailing the engagement with the women involved with the PIP issue. There was indication of a meeting tomorrow but I want clarification that they will be met not only in the context of their immediate need but also with regard to the preparation of regulation to apply in the clinic settings of which they have direct experience.

I made a point detailing comparisons between the response in this jurisdiction and on the neighbouring island. A similar cohort of women, with regard to their experiences and stress, would be involved. I asked that we be generous but there was no generosity in the response given by Dr. Holohan. It indicates that it would be almost akin to a police pursuit of those who were quite correctly responsible. I refer particularly to the service provider and the manufacturer of the inappropriate implants. That will not answer the immediate need and concerns of these women. In Britain, where the women concerned got no response or an inadequate response, the direction from the National Health Service is to proceed to get what service they need and the state will ultimately follow the responsible or offending practices, all the way to the provider of the faulty devise. I believe we should do exactly the same. We should give women the comfort of immediate access to a service, and give them that certainty now. This is an issue that will run on and Dr. Holohan cannot give us a timeframe when it will be brought to a conclusion or say when the State will step in when the women will be unable to access the services they require. We need to be more generous as the women require the certainty now. I appeal to the chief medical officer to take my point and deliver that message tomorrow.

Would it be beneficial or would it complicate the process to invite the hospitals to appear before the committee?

Dr. Tony Holohan

May I consider that and come back to the Chairman later?

Dr. Tony Holohan

I will deal with Deputy Doherty's question, as I did not respond adequately to it in my reply. Part of the difficulty is that we do not know how many cases are involved, because there is no requirement on providers to register. We have a general sense and we all know about the large private hospitals that are outside the direct State provision. Some of the providers of this service are smaller and less formal clinics and provide other non-cosmetic surgery services. It is hard to be absolutely precise about the number. We would be confident in terms of the provisions we seek to put in place in legislation, that it would be the activity that somebody engages in and the risk that relates to the activity that would determine whether they would be captured by our framework of regulation. If somebody is in the business of providing general anaesthesia as part of a set of clinical services, he or she simply must be regulated in this country, and that would provide the State with the means of ensuring that all of these different providers can be captured.

I take the point absolutely that we can and should do more on making information available to people, as some people when making these decisions are not always sensitised to the actual risks involved. They regard them as cosmetic procedures and do not think of them in the same way as general surgical procedures. In terms of risk, these cosmetic procedures are no different from a very broad swathe of general surgical services. People do not always see it in those terms. I mentioned to members that we are working with the Irish Association of Plastic Surgeons to try to update and put in place more comprehensive guidance and information. I accept the point that people do not always seek it, and the Deputy's suggestion as to what the Department might be able to do in relation to advertising and advertising codes is a good one. We will take it away and pursue it further and consider whether we can do other things to try to close the gap. There will always be a situation of caveat emptor, and getting the balance right. We empower people by giving them information, but ultimately we do not make decisions for them. As things stand, people will wish to make the decision but they must have an assurance that the appropriate systems are in place. My point is that they are not all in place at this point in time. We are working on regulation to try to close those gaps.

Deputy Ó Caoláin suggested that we meet the women. I have no difficulty with his suggestion as it is a good suggestion that the specific experience of these women be sought to inform us. I have no difficulty in putting that question in front of them tomorrow and asking them to give me their perspectives on that question, not just tomorrow but on an ongoing basis. I think the extent that we can inform what we seek to do by way of regulation with the actual experiences that people are having, can only make for a better regulatory response from our point of view.

In relation to how the UK has responded to this crisis, the UK is in a different situation, in that I understand some providers have left the jurisdiction and no longer operate in the UK. That is not the situation in this country at present. We must reach a balanced judgment. We want to ensure that by responding in a particular way, we do not allow others to step away from their primary obligations. That is not to say that we will be slow in responding. Deputy Ó Caoláin asked the State to be generous. The challenge for us in a resource constrained environment, which we all know and understand in the Department of Health, is to extent to which we are in a position to provide services and what services must we forgo in order to provide this set of services. That is a challenge for us. Is it right and proper for the State to step in, forgo services for other people who have clearly established clinical needs in order to pick up the obligations of a private provider? That is the balance we wish to strike.

It is not that I am suggesting in any way that those primarily responsible be excused from facing their responsibilities, they should be pursued relentlessly, but the women require redress. We should give them a choice, which some will opt to take up, which will mean so much to them in terms of peace of mind and certainty going into the future. We should do that and then pursue the clinics. It is not that we are looking to take money from one area of the health services. Those primarily responsible for this must ultimately pay. In the meantime we should give the women concerned, those who need that help, assistance now.

Dr. Tony Holohan

I may have overlooked a point raised in the Deputy's question on people's ability to move from one jurisdiction to another, and people operating in this jurisdiction. As things currently stand, people can establish a business with ease and move that business. This is one of the challenges, but our framework of licensing will make that more difficult and more challenging. We will ensure that in order to establish a particular service, a standard of registration will have to be met by people in the first instance, which is informed by the HIQA standards, which the Minister is about to approve. I wish to point out that we are looking at and seeking legal advice on two issues. First, are there potential powers that could be used by us? I am not prejudging that, but I am not optimistic of what might be possible. We are thinking as creatively as we can to try to identify possibilities. We are looking at the possibility of extending the existing provisions of the Health Act 2007, which concerns HIQA, and essentially looking at its powers to see if it has the power to bring providers of some of these services into the existing framework of HIQA registration and legislation. I do not have a clear legal opinion on whether that is doable but the Minister is keen that we explore it and come to an early determination on it. That might allow us some latitude in the shorter term.

I feel I am sitting here and turning into a drama queen. Dr. Holohan said earlier that the number of clinics engaged in surgical procedures, where somebody has to physically cut into another's body, is unknown. There are premises up and down the road, where botox injections and homoeopathic remedies are available. Are they regulated and controlled by anybody?

Dr. Tony Holohan

No.

That is really scary. Dr. Holohan spoke about the heads of the licensing Bill. How quickly will we see it?

Dr. Tony Holohan

The intention is that it will be ready by the end of this year.

Will those people be included under the provisions of that Bill?

Dr. Tony Holohan

To whom is the Deputy referring?

People providing botox injections, people on the high street, offering services that very loosely will be called "medical services".

Dr. Tony Holohan

On the general question of the activities to be governed by the legislation, we have not yet made final determinations on that. I cannot give the Deputy a clear answer on the position of those providing botox injections, but my sense is that they are outside of what would ordinarily be regarded as medical practice. However, they are involved in using medically active devices. There are various different means of regulating that. The fact that it would not be regulated through the proposed licensing Bill does not necessarily mean that it would not be possible to regulate and license them by some means or other. We are aware of the concerns in relation to that.

I know that Dr. Holohan will not be able to answer this question here. Are the Department's legal advisers checking on the obligations of the company that issued the CE mark? My understanding is that one of the licensing bodies in Europe that can issue CE marks gave such a mark to this product. Surely the body in question, which is based in Germany, has some statutory obligations under its charter as a CE-granting body. We should check whether it was obliged to provide for a certain frequency of inspections and, if so, whether it met that requirement. Did it comply with the detail and rigour of the inspections that were supposed to be taking place? How long had the problem been going on?

I ask Dr. Holohan again to name the hospitals. I reiterate that it might be worthwhile if HIQA, which has been brought on board, were to redeploy some of the funds it uses for its army of public relations consultations to inspect the private health sector.

The remarks about Barringtons Hospital cannot go unchallenged. Approximately two years before the story about Barringtons Hospital broke, a cancer specialist in the Limerick region notified the Department of Health that he had grave concerns about what was going on in the institution. That happened before it became a major public cause célèbre. There is a general feeling that the reaction of the Department was not appropriate. I will leave it at that.

Dr. Tony Holohan

I take the point that we need to get to the bottom of the CE certification process. The European regulatory authorities and the Irish Medicines Board, which is this country's regulatory authority, are working on that at present.

If the whole process that was mentioned by Senator Crown actually happened, it makes a mockery of the whole thing.

Dr. Tony Holohan

Yes. It is difficult for an inspection process to be effective if somebody is intent on fraud. I am not an expert on the regulation of devices, etc. This case is different from the DePuy hips case, which involved a manufacturing process and did not result from a wilful act on anybody's part. People "fessed" up, in a sense, when problems were identified. In this case, there was a determination to hide information from the regulatory authorities. That makes it very difficult. It shows the limitations of regulation. Regulation can never be a guarantee of safety. There is an understanding that people have to be as informed as they can. We have an obligation to ensure we can empower people as far as is possible by giving them information. I fear I have overlooked one of Senator Crown's questions.

I also asked about the hospital issue.

Dr. Tony Holohan

Is that the only outstanding question?

That is the only one I am looking for information on.

Dr. Tony Holohan

I will give the names of the hospitals.

Can Dr. Holohan match them to the titles of hospitals A, B and C?

Dr. Tony Holohan

Yes. Hospital A in this case is Clane General Hospital in County Kildare. Hospital B in this case is not a hospital, as such. It is important for people to understand the process that pertains here. Either an individual hospital offers a service or someone commissions the provision of a service through a hospital by entering into an arrangement. Such a person is essentially a commissioner on behalf of patients who then pay the institution in question. Hospital A - Clane General Hospital - is a fixed hospital. Hospital B is an organisation called the Hospital Group, which provides its services through the Shandon Clinic in Cork. Hospital C is the Harley Medical Group.

Would it assist the Department if we were to invite representatives of the hospitals to address the committee?

Dr. Tony Holohan

Yes, I think so.

In no way do we want to complicate Dr. Holohan's job. There is a consensus among the members of the committee that there must be accountability and that those held to account must be held responsible. If Dr. Holohan does not want to answer, he can get back to us at a later date. I do not want to put him on the spot.

Dr. Tony Holohan

I would have no difficulty with that.

With respect, I think the question the Chairman has asked Dr. Holohan is an unfair one.

It is. I accept that.

I think the wish of the members, which reflects the cases we have been made aware of, is that this is what we should do.

Deputy Kelleher proposed at a previous meeting that we should do that. I am asking whether that proposal would complicate, assist, enhance or augment Dr. Holohan's work and the process he is undertaking.

That is an issue for the committee, rather than for Dr. Holohan. I do not know whether Dr. Holohan is aware of the commentary and discussion this committee has had on this matter prior to his attendance at today's meeting. Clearly, the Harley Medical Group has been the subject of strong criticism from members of this committee. Some of its commentary in the UK has been downright distasteful, to say the least. In the interests of fairness, we should invite representatives of that group to come to this forum so we can put our case to them. In the meantime, Dr. Holohan and his colleagues in the Department must continue to work in every way possible to ensure people get adequate treatment.

I have a further question. I know this meeting has been going on a long time. It has been mentioned that 10% of those who opted for explantation received other implants. Did the hospitals fund all of the necessary treatment in those cases?

Dr. Tony Holohan

According to the information given to us by Clane General Hospital and the Hospital Group, any service provided to the patients who required explantation and reimplantation was provided entirely at full cost to the provider.

I would also like to ask about the consultation.

Dr. Tony Holohan

We also understand, on the basis of what Clane General Hospital has told us, that one of other providers - the Harley Medical Group - contracted Clane General Hospital as one of the centres where it provided services to its patients. That complicates things somewhat. Although such individuals were not strictly required to go back to Clane, that is where they went in some cases. Clane General Hospital underwrote the cost of providing these services to people in that category.

It is obvious that the 10% of women who opted for explantation and re-implantation got adequate consultation with the surgeon and the service provider. My only concern relates to the fact that the service provider is accepting liability, in terms of the cost of explantation and re-implantation. I am concerned that the nature of business means that people might be encouraged to take a certain route, which they might not want to take. I am talking about the costs. It is easier for the service provider to offer a woman a consultation, tell her she is fine and send her out the door. That would save service providers money. The consultation should be open, honest and transparent. Perhaps it should be slightly removed from the actual facility itself. Any hospital employee will know full well what will cost the hospital money. I accept the integrity of the medical professionals but all things being equal-----

Dr. Tony Holohan

I understand the point the Deputy is making. I cannot give him an assurance that it has not happened. Any individual medical practitioner who acts in that way by allowing his or her clinical determinations to be influenced by financial matters would have a difficulty under the ethical code of the Irish Medical Council, as things stand. I am not saying that prevents such circumstances from coming to pass. We have received substantial numbers of pages of complaints from women. They relate almost exclusively to a single provider. We have not received a similar volume of complaints about the other providers.

Dr. Tony Holohan

I am not saying that guarantees anything, but it gives us some degree of a general indication.

I would like to say something to Deputy Kelleher through the Chair. Dr. Holohan has just said that of the three providers, some 400 patients are being cared for by providers A and B. He said earlier that the only tool he has in dealing with provider C during these sensitive negotiations, in order to care for the other 900 women we know of, is the protection of their reputation. I would not like to be blackmailed. I would relish the opportunity for representatives of that provider to answer questions at this forum. However, I am very conscious of the 900 women. If all they are concerned about is the damage we might do to their reputation, we could probably wait until the 900 women have been-----

Dr. Tony Holohan

I wish to be fair to the group. I want to factually set out what it has said to me. I have received commitments in writing. It accepts its duty of care in this regard. It is determined to provide these services to the individuals concerned. It has already dealt with between 70 and 80 women in surgical terms. It has a schedule for approximately further 30 women on its books. We have focused on the concern that large numbers of women are finding it difficult to get answers to their questions or even to meet a doctor with whom they can interact. They have taken that on board and given a commitment to put these services in place as an in-country response as quickly as they can. I intend to continue to meet with them to ensure that commitment is realised.

I propose that we invite them to appear before the joint committee.

Is that agreed?

I do not believe engagement will in any way curtail the prospect of them living up to the commitment of which Dr. Holohan just advised. If anything it will act as a spur.

That is agreed.

The primary concern of all members is for the women affected and the level of care and treatment they receive. A further motivation, however, is to ensure that those who were involved in this matter are held to account. The joint committee will write to the three hospitals in question.

I thank Ms Susan Reilly and Ms Eithne Barron for appearing before the joint committee. I also thank Dr. Tony Holohan for his thorough presentation and in-depth contributions to the question and answer session. We appreciate his candour and wish him well at tomorrow's meeting.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.20 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 8 May 2012.
Top
Share