Joint Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage debate -
Tuesday, 25 Oct 2022

Implementation of Housing for All: Discussion (Resumed)

Chairman

This is the third in a series of meetings we are holding with local authorities from across the country. We started with Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown Council and Dublin City Council. We met with Galway and Cork County Councils last week. Today we are joined by Mr. Daniel McLoughlin and Mr. Colm Ward from South Dublin County Council and by Ms AnnMarie Farrelly, Mr. Robert Burns and Ms Mary Egan from Fingal County Council. You are all welcome. I thank you all for the opening statements which have been circulated to the members. You also submitted your housing delivery action plans. The purpose of these meetings is to look at the historical delivery of housing and the different types of housing that have been delivered over the last couple of years. It is also to look at the projected delivery in line with Housing for All. We agreed this morning that we will have a couple more meetings after which the committee will put a report together, and submit it with our recommendations and observations from engagement with local authorities.

I will read a brief note on privilege before I ask for opening statements. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the place where Parliament has chosen to sit, namely, Leinster House, in order to participate in public meetings. For witnesses attending in the committee room, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their contributions to today's meeting. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. Both members and witnesses are expected not to abuse the privilege they enjoy. It is my duty as Chair to ensure this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction. Members and witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Before we hear opening statements, I want to explain to our witnesses that we take it in seven minute segments. That means members have seven minutes to ask questions and receive answers. If we stick to those seven minutes we can sometimes get in a second round of questions. I will start with South Dublin County Council followed by Fingal County Council. I invite Mr. McLoughlin to make his opening statement on behalf of South Dublin County Council.

Mr. Daniel McLoughlin

Is it okay if I go briefly over the opening statement? I will paraphrase it rather than go line by line as members have seen it.

Chairman

Absolutely. Please do.

Mr. Daniel McLoughlin

I thank the committee for the invitation. The housing delivery shown in our opening statement is for the period 2017-2021. The committee asked for three years but we included five to give a better feel for the comparison between that five year period and the current one. We delivered 2,392 units, and 5,300 housing assistance payment, HAP, households also benefitted from housing accommodation policy. The leap going forward in terms of step change is very significant where we are looking to provide 3,699 social homes and 1,566 affordable homes. The significant step change is largely associated with the introduction of Housing for All and the introduction of the affordable sale and cost-rental streams. In our case that is assisted by two significant issues. One issue is the substantial block of funding of approximately €186 million of the urban regeneration and development fund, URDF, for the Clonburris strategic development zone, SDZ, which will allow for the advance development of all enabling common infrastructure. Clonburris SDZ is a housing project for 8,500 homes, and South Dublin County Council has 2,500 homes within that. That is really important, as is the additional financing of resources and the fact that we have, in the last five years, gone from developing smallish sites ranging from ten homes, to the biggest one, which I think was 90 homes. That is a lot of firefighting, planning permission and contracting and site management. We are going from that into managing about a half dozen sites, the smallest of which will comprise maybe 300 to 400 units at a time. Those three issues are facilitating that step change, and that represents our ambition for the next five years.

We have considerably increased our activity with regard to right-sizing. There is a confluence of issues for us, one of which is ageing demographics that is common across Ireland, and particularly in parts of south Dublin inside the M50, one of the older suburbs in Dublin city and county. There is also a degree of analysis by Tallaght University Hospital around this. Our age friendly committee through my colleague, Mr. Ward's team have also done work around it. The numbers going forward are fantastic in terms of life expectancy and so forth but demanding in terms of the State.

Alongside that we have significant issues around under-occupation of social homes, which comes to about 1,100 or 11%. People obviously have the right to reside in those homes. What we are trying to do through our right-sizing policy is encourage people voluntarily to move within their own locality to a right-sized home, providing they are comfortable with that and it fulfils their life expectations moving forward. There will be no obligation on anyone to move. We also have one site under construction, three sites at the tender stage, and four sites at the planning stage. That is eight sites all together, ranging in size from about 12 to 16 in terms of small clusters of housing within existing communities. We also have two or three larger developments, including one for 80 apartments. That is it on right-sizing. We also have a right-sizing policy that allows people to buy into it from private housing on the surrender of their homes.

On Part V, the statistics speak for themselves. On vacancy and dereliction, as a local authority administrative area, we have the lowest vacancy rate in Ireland over the last two census periods. That is reflected in the lack of activity on repair and renew and on the various Government initiatives. For our part, we have brought derelict properties back into use, including three for social housing and two for lease. There are also four derelict properties in one location going through the compulsory purchase order, CPO, process under the derelict sites Act.

Broadly speaking, that is a synopsis of the opening statement.

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

I thank the Chair and members for the invitation to address them today. We have a good track record in Fingal of delivering social homes for the county. Since 2019, we have delivered in excess of 5,000 units. Of those, 847 were direct build and the figures for other forms of social housing can be seen in the paper we submitted. Looking ahead then in terms of Housing for All we are committed to increasing our social housing delivery. We work with all delivery partners to ensure that housing is available for everybody in society.

As part of the Housing for All plan, we have developed a housing action plan 2022 to 2026. It sets out the details of all social housing delivery for the next five years. It summarises the current and projected housing delivery which will be delivered to meet the targets set for the council by the Department. The table provided outlines the delivery targets for 2022 to 2026. That is a total of 3,640 units over those years and 3,286 of those are to be direct build.

The council plans to deliver a total of 361 new build social homes this year and that is against a target of 360. It is committed to delivering the target of 690 new builds for 2023 and targets of more than 700 new build social homes for the subsequent years up to 2026. Fingal County Council has been proactive in the delivery of social housing and over the past three years the council has provided housing solutions for more than 5,000 families. This has been through a range of delivery mechanisms, including new build, leasing and the housing assistance payment, HAP.

Having said that, the last few years have challenging. Covid-19 has hampered the building of new houses. It has caused disruption to the construction sector and hindered supply chains. The high construction price inflation and market uncertainty have also impacted housing delivery. However, Fingal County Council is committed to delivering good quality social and affordable homes for our citizens and to achieving all the targets set out.

To meet the significant challenges of delivery set out in the Housing for All plan, the council has an ambitious housing construction programme delivering both social and affordable housing on its own land banks. The table provided sets out the projected pipeline to 2026. In the period 2015 to 2021, 536 social housing units were built on council land. Moving ahead, the pipeline is 1,933. That includes a combination of construction on site and those that are in the planning stage and in the pre-planning stage.

Part V delivery continues to be an important delivery mechanism. A total of 405 new social homes were delivered under Part V in the period 2019 to 2021. A further 116 dwellings are in the pipeline to be delivered in 2022. There are currently a total of 609 active construction sites across the county with a total of 2,932 units under construction. New Part V social homes will be coming from those private sites. The future social housing provision of Part V is dependent on delivery by the private construction sector.

In advance of the introduction of the Affordable Housing Act 2021 and the regulations, Fingal devised a pilot affordable scheme at Dun Emer in Lusk, delivering 39 affordable and 12 social homes. These homes are scheduled to be delivered by year end. The next development will be on site in Hayestown, Rush, in the coming weeks delivering 52 affordable and ten social homes. The first phase of delivery on our major land bank at Church Fields, Mulhuddart, Dublin 15, is currently at procurement stage. This phase will deliver 108 affordable purchase and 80 cost-rental homes.

There are four cost rental schemes approved under the cost rental equity loan, CREL, scheme being delivered by our affordable housing body, AHB, partners. These schemes are scheduled to deliver 14 cost-rental homes this year and 170 in 2023. Working with our partners in the Land Development Agency and the approved housing bodies, it is expected that more than 3,000 affordable homes will be delivered in Fingal in the period 2022 to 2026. The table provided outlines this projected delivery by each partner. That is a total of 3,079 units.

The delivery of accommodation for older persons is a priority for the council. A scheme of 30 apartments specifically designed for older people was delivered last year in partnership with Fold Housing. A further 31 homes will be under construction by Tuath Housing on the council owned land bank in Lusk this year. The council is currently drafting a pilot right-sizing scheme which will accommodate both social and private homeowners.

The preliminary census 2022 data indicates that Fingal has the second lowest vacancy rate in the country at 4.28%. It is likely that many of these properties will not be vacant when the data is further analysed. Since 2019, a total of 70 privately-owned properties have been brought back into occupancy. That is through the repair and lease scheme, the buy and renew scheme, compulsory purchase orders, CPOs, and through the private market.

The council also recognises the Croí Cónaithe scheme, particularly the refurbishment grant scheme of a maximum of €50,000 which will bring some of those properties back into use. The council has a full-time vacant homes officer in place since April 2022. The officer and the team will deal with the 85 vacant or potentially vacant, private dwellings that are at the various states of investigation, engagement or action. Some of the properties are in the process of going through probate or conveyancing or may be subject to repair or form part of a planning application. The council is actively tracking the progress with these properties and expects they will return to occupancy as the various processes reach conclusion. The council’s vacant homes officer will also be participating in a pilot project with the Department and five other local authorities around the data on potential vacant properties across the country.

Fingal County Council assesses dereliction in accordance with the Derelict Sites Act 1990. There are currently six sites with 17 properties on the derelict sites register. The council continues to pursue dereliction by way of engagement with owners and occupiers, the issuing of statutory notices and the placement of sites on the register. As a result, the council has engagement with the owners of all these sites. The council hopes to be in a position to remove three of the six sites from the register in the near future. The use of the register will continue as a means to engage with owners and occupiers to deal with matters around dereliction and the return of properties to use.

Fingal County Council continues to build on its good track record of delivering both social and affordable housing. As outlined above, there is a significant pipeline already in place and together with our delivery partners we are committed to delivering the target 6,532 social and affordable homes as set out in the housing action plan.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I thank both local authorities for being with us today. We want to try to capture how Housing for All is being implemented and what some of the roadblocks might be at a practical level that we can feed back to the Department. I am conscious that much of the legislation is very new. The Affordable Housing Act, for example, is just over 12 months old so I accept some of this is planning for the future.

From an overall perspective, Dublin City Council is quite constrained in terms of land and it talked about a figure of 10,000 between now and 2026. Both local authorities here today do not have that same land constraint but their numbers are lower. Are the two local authorities being ambitious enough with the targets they have been agreed with the Department? Is there far more scope for development on some of those greenfield sites in what are two local authorities with a lot of land?

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

We do not see it as a limit. The target is there and we would hope to overachieve and we have overachieved over many years in Fingal. Although land is not necessarily a constraint overall, not all of it is public land. We have constraints in the public land area. Currently, all of the land in our ownership is in play for those sites that are either on site in construction or whatever stage of project development they might be in. The Deputy is probably aware we have just come through the draft stage of our development plan. The council has been looking at the public lands and what might be appropriate for further housing delivery. For example, a new project in the future will be the Dunsink lands Deputy McAuliffe will be familiar with. The council hopes to bring significant public lands into play through that potential zoning should it go through in confirmation of the plan for next year.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Ms Farrelly pre-empted my next question. Has the council outlined that yet because there was funding from the European Regional Development Fund for potential housing on the Dunsink lands. Has the council any idea of what quantity could be delivered there and at what point is the council at in terms of that project?

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

It is definitely early stages but it is an example of how the council is future-proofing its plans.

It could deliver up to 7,000 units but that depends on the delivery of infrastructure to the site. It is a good strategic location inside the M50 so there is magnificent potential there with private and public lands. The regional park adjacent to it could be developed as a significant amenity. It is at the early stages but it is important that we have a pipeline of lands in play for development and lands that can be our future.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

A similar expansion on the Dublin city map was the Meakstown area. As Ms Farrelly knows, it took quite a while for Fingal County Council to catch up with delivering some of the community services needed in that area. It was a largely private development but Fingal County Council is only now trying to retrofit some of those community facilities. I would hope that with the Dunsink development those types of services would be in place as part of a master plan or a broader, more coherent strategy.

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

It is going to need a strategic planning framework to sit within and that will include delivering those community amenities. The Deputy will be glad to hear that we will be on-site delivering Meakstown community centre early next year, I hope. I accept there has been a slowness in delivery of community facilities. We have learned from that and we will be future-proofing any future development lands, including Dunsink. The important thing is we have the potential amenities there.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Does Mr. McLoughlin have any comments on capacity?

Mr. Daniel McLoughlin

The Deputy will be aware that the overall housing supply framework is set out in the county development plan context and that the Department and the Minister provide an annual allocation of private and public housing for delivery through the county development plan framework, handed down in terms of national demographic projections and the eastern regional authority and so on. That is in play in terms of the numbers, as are land capacity and realistic ambition. In those confines, we have struck a good number. Resilience is built into that regarding potential delays and other opportunities. We have been treading a kind of middle line regarding Part V and there is likely to be more in that. The plan is ambitious and challenging, not just in the context of the last 12 months. It was challenging before that with the step change in delivery and managing that output.

On the land issue, even though I talked up the large site, it is a big issue for us being able to deliver at scale. It has a limitation in the number of contracts one can work onto a particular parcel of land. The social integration model and how many houses one wants to put in a certain area is also a consideration. In overall land bank terms, we are good for this five-year plan period. Beyond that, we have issues with land capacity, which is something we are looking at both as a local authority and with the Department.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Mr. McLoughlin is right to broaden it out beyond land alone. That raises the question of resources, both budgetary, available through the Housing for All multi-annual budget, and staffing. Do the witnesses think both local authorities have the numbers of people and finances needed, using Ms Farrelly's phrase, " to exceed those targets"?

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

Resourcing has been provided to us by the Department in recent times. As it stands, it is quite solid. There is a difficulty in recruiting professional staff particularly and in keeping them when they join us. Private sector resources are also fairly limited at the moment as regards bringing in that expertise. It is challenging and it is not without problems. The financial resources as construction costs increase are a worry for us all. It is particularly worrying regarding affordable delivery for cost rental and private purchase. That is something we have under review. We are conscious that we need to end up with an affordable price for rent and purchase when we deliver units-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I might come back on the affordability issue as there a lot of questions on that area. What is the opinion on the broader issue of staffing and resources?

Mr. Daniel McLoughlin

Staffing and resources are not an issue. We have had success in those areas. We got the financial allocation and went to the employment market and hired good people in the last 12 months. We have been fortunate in that regard. Ms Farrelly alluded to something that is really important. All of these cases require extensive environmental analysis and extensive ground ecological and archaeological analysis. It could be something as simple as a bat survey that must be carried out in summertime. If you cannot get someone to do that, you lose a year. That is how significant it is. Winter birding is another area. The amount of construction work ongoing across the country and the scope for engaging ecologists and specialists in these areas is limited, to a degree. It is more a case of watching that than what is in-house. That is important in terms of the need to supplement in-house resources with external consultants and how the lack of availability of one or all of those particular disciplines could trip you up in the completion of an environmental analysis or strategic environmental assessment.

Chairman

I call Deputy Ó Broin.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

I thank the witnesses for the presentations and documentation. I acknowledge the considerable volume of work that the witnesses and the teams in the housing departments do. I pay tribute to them and if the witnesses could convey that after the meeting, I would be grateful. To both council representatives, I would like to pick up on Deputy McAuliffe's point, specifically in relation to land and the five-year programme for delivery of new-build social and affordable homes. Without getting into a precise figure, of the programmes laid out to the committee, how much is on council land versus how much of the new builds will require Part Vs, turnkeys or other private sector land developments? Do the witnesses have any worries that if there is a slowdown in, for example, private sector commencements next year or the year after, as some industry commentators are saying, that acquiring those turnkeys or Part Vs might be challenging? Perhaps Mr. McLoughlin could go first.

Mr. Daniel McLoughlin

All of our pipeline is on our own land, with the exception of Part V. That answers the Deputy's question. We do not have an issue with having to buy land over the five years or an issue of being in collaboration for a turnkey development. It is all our own land.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Does that include the approved housing body, AHB, portion of the overall social housing targets and affordable housing targets for the next five years?

Mr. Daniel McLoughlin

Yes. Much of what the AHB is doing is on our land. I mentioned earlier that there have been challenges regarding the land bank going forward. That equally applies to AHBs; in fact, even more so.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Will Ms Farrelly comment?

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

Similarly, with Part V, we have a line of sight for the next two years based on the number of units under construction and recently commenced in the county. It will be a challenge to deliver the Part V units if private commencements do not increase. That said, there are about 1,200 of those units that we expect to be Part V units. The rest is delivered on public land so it should be fine for social housing. Affordable housing needs more work in that space.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Both local authorities are starting to work with larger, more complex and mixed-tenure projects, which is a good thing. That can often lead to an extended period of time between when planning is approved and construction starts. Will the witnesses outline to the committee in brief what that process looks like? The witnesses could take a specific project, for example, the recent planning approval in south Dublin for a Part 8 development in Kishoge with 250 units or a comparable one in Fingal, to give the committee a sense of how long that takes and if there are ways of improving or streamlining that. I am thinking about whether there has been progress on the single point of approval in the Department for mixed-tenure developments, which was referred to in the Minister's review earlier this year. Perhaps Ms Farrelly will go first.

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

A mixed-tenure site is more difficult to deliver than direct delivery. It is slower. Some of that delay is caused by public procurement. The Part 8 planning process is particularly efficient, so that works well. In getting from site following a Part 8, I estimate it takes a year to 15 months. That is quite efficient compared to a private development. It is easier to go in and build social units directly without the mixed tenure part, but it is not necessarily the right thing to do. Mr. McLoughlin mentioned some big areas of land. Similarly, in Fingal, we have sites that can take about 1,000 units. One example is Donabate, which is 1,000 units on public lands and a combination private, social and some cost-rental units. That is financed by private finance, which adds additional complexity.

It is in the planning system at present. We anticipate it will go to site soon thereafter but it can take up to three or four years for that scheme to be brought through development. Much of the work is hidden and not understood. In the case of Church Fields we have moved to another site of 1,000 units. We will get on site with 300 of those by the end of next year. The Part 8 process is a two to three year process. That is why we keep all our sites in play and try to move different sites at different stages of development.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Before I move on to Mr. McLoughlin, has the suggestion of a single point of approval in the Department for mixed tenure developments on the council's own land, as opposed to the joint venture in Donabate, happened yet or does Ms Farrelly have any update on where it is at?

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

It has happened and is bedding down at the moment. That will bring significant improvements for us.

Mr. Daniel McLoughlin

I am a strong advocate of mixed tenure development at scale because, as I said earlier, it involves one planning conversation and one contract for the mixed tenure to be approved. I will not use the term "take care of" but we are dealing with a situation where the approved housing bodies, AHBs, require land and we are anxious to progress mixed tenure communities across all of the various Government schemes; that gives us the best opportunity to do it, all as part of one conversation. It is therefore worth quite a bit of pain.

When we get to Part 8 we keep talking about the public spending code and the four stage process. Since our troubles in 2008 and 2011 we have a public spending code and all approval processes including housing, the Urban Regeneration and Development Fund, URDF or major capital spending projects mirror that process. In considering adjustments to that we need to reflect on the need for a public spending code and how we might deal with that or provide more agility within it.

Working against that framework, when we come through come planning we are effectively through two stages of the process. We must then take a planning consent, which is an outline design proposal, to detailed design stage. We have two choices. We can design it in-house, get architects to design it or go to the market for a design and build solution. I said two, but it is really two and a half options. That takes 12 months either way. During that 12 month window, we also need to carry out all of the environmental assessments, ground, archeological and heritage surveys and so on. That is a lot of moving parts and, as I said earlier, the management of all the sub-consultants within the timeframe, some of whom are season dependent, is quite tricky.

We then get to the detailed design stage where approval is needed again. Then we go to tender which is a two stage process when developing at scale. Stage 1 is to ask interested parties to put their names forward to adjudicate on their capacity and competency to undertake a project at scale. At that point we move to stage 2. Unfortunately there is currently a degree of hesitancy between stage 1 and stage 2. People who enter stage 1 do not necessarily stay in the race for stage 2. The two stage process is another timing issue. Then we get the final tender and that has to be approved. Then we go to site. As regards the timescale outlined to the committee - if we assume there is a conversation in a council chamber or an area committee about a greenfield site without any development or infrastructure constraints - from concept and from broad understanding at council level to handing over a key, four years is good.

Deputy Emer Higgins

I thank the witnesses for attending the committee and ask them to thank their teams because they are at the coal face of the housing crisis. We appreciate everything their teams do, especially the team in South Dublin County Council which helps me and my constituents on a daily basis but also Fingal County Council which provides a similar service in its community.

It is great to welcome two councils that are the national leaders on tackling vacancy and to say well done on that. I hope more will be done to drive it down even further.

I have two questions for each local authority which I have asked of all local authorities that come before the committee. I will then focus this contribution on South Dublin County Council and come back to Fingal County Council in subsequent contributions.

My first question for both councils is whether their homeless counters are open and how many full-time equivalent posts were sanctioned and hired under the Housing for All plans.

Mr. Robert Burns

Our homeless counters are open and our services are available but of course we work through the Dublin Regional Homeless Executive so the overall system provides extra assurance. As regards our staffing, we have been provided an additional 11 full-time staff members under Housing for All for our social housing programme. All but two of those posts are filled and we are coming close to the end of the recruitment process for two national positions. An additional six staff members have been sanctioned for affordable housing delivery. We are awaiting for that to go through the approval stages in the Department and hope to get news of that shortly.

Mr. Colm Ward

In South Dublin County Council our homeless counter is absolutely open for business. We requested 15 staff members across social and affordable housing delivery. We received initial approval for nine social housing staff members. Recruitment is ongoing for those and 50% of them have been recruited at this stage. We only received the sanction for the six affordable housing posts recently but recruitment processes are in train.

Deputy Emer Higgins

I will comment on south Dublin this time and as I said, I will return to Fingal.

I will start by acknowledging the positives because they are not necessarily always aired. South Dublin County Council residents have not been shy about coming forward for the first-home shared equity scheme and I understand a number of them have already received their certificates of eligibility. As of June 2022, construction of 4,000 homes had started in the previous 12 months and 1,000 new homes were completed in that time. All of us on the ground in the constituency see that every day. We see hoardings up, boots on sites and cranes in the skyline in Liffey Valley, Clondalkin, Lucan, the N4 and in the villages. All of those sites represent families, couples and single people who will end up in those homes and that is welcome.

As the witnesses know, housing is a massive issue in our area. It is a particularly big issue in my constituency of Dublin Mid-West and South Dublin County Council's housing delivery plans focus more heavily on Dublin-Midwest than Dublin South-West. We are home to two strategic development zones, Adamstown and Clonburris, and nearly 70% of social homes in the council's pipeline are due to be delivered in Dublin Mid-West rather than Dublin South-West. That is welcome and I want to ensure we get it right. What I mean by that is that we deliver homes hand-in-hand with infrastructure and the URDF funding that Mr. McLoughlin mentioned means that the likes of the Celbridge link road will open in the coming weeks. That will provide much anticipated traffic congestion relief in Lucan. Funding like that is being and must be used to build roads, schools and amenities that need to come hand-in-hand with those quite large-scale projects.

Second, I reiterate it is important that we deliver the right tenure and mix of homes. In September 2019 South Dublin County Council sought expressions of interest in affordable homes. I was a councillor at the time and it was something I was keen to do because even then when no national affordable housing scheme was in place, we had an affordability issue in Dublin and especially in Dublin Mid-West. Now as a Deputy one of the biggest concerns I hear from young people and their parents is that they will not be able to afford to buy their own homes. Some 2,000 people applied for that back then and the council's housing needs demand assessment, HNDA, estimates 2,500 more people have affordability problems. The national target is 1,200 affordable purchase homes over the five or seven years since 2019. Is that enough and is the right balance being struck?

Mr. Daniel McLoughlin

There is a lot in that. On the Deputy's first point, I thank her for acknowledging the work of the team and the councillors in south Dublin. Good work is being done.

I can reassure the Deputy on the accompanying infrastructure piece. Apart from the Celbridge link road the Deputy mentioned, she will be aware that in Adamstown we are developing two parks at scale. One at Tandy's Lane opened last year at the cost of €5 million and one at Airlie Park will open in January 2023 at a cost of €5 million. Lucan leisure centre that cost €14 million will hopefully open next year. There is much advance and retrospective provision of playing grounds and team spaces.

In fairness, the Department of Education has stepped up with us on site acquisition from us and other sites regarding the development of schools. There are five crèches within the Adamstown strategic development zone, SDZ, where there are currently 3,500 homes. We have our arms around that. I appreciate that there was a hiatus in the Deputy's backyard. There was an expansive growth area in Lucan in the Celtic tiger era that hit a brick wall in 2008 and then there was a delay. We are retrofitting a lot of stuff there in the past five years and that is going pretty well.

On the mixed tenure piece, we have about 50:50 social and affordable housing in Kilcarbery, which has 1,000 homes. The Deputy will be well familiar that when we first tendered, the affordable housing schemes were not in place. Since they have come in we have been able to bring on board though CREL and other schemes some affordable initiatives to rebalance that into a 50:50 situation. Clonburris is 40% social, 30% affordable and 30% cost-rental across 2,500 homes. We are getting the mix pretty right.

I will now answer on the expressions of interest piece on affordable housing and whether the numbers are high enough. Apart from the 10% ordinarily in play, as part of the URDF, which does not get spoken about often, we got €20 million in funding in Adamstown. Part of that proposition was an agreement for the sale of 2,000 homes, 1,100 of which had to be below a certain price point. That has been achieved in the past three years. As part of the Kilcarbery proposition, in the absence of an affordable scheme, we built in 50 homes discounted to the market. As part of the URDF proposition in Clonburris we are factoring in an additional 10% affordable on top of the statutory requirement, which is an additional 600 affordable homes. In those initiatives alone, the over and above proposition beyond the statutory 10% is quite significant.

We are still exploring options and we are waiting to see whether we will have an affordable cost-rental development ourselves that has just come through tender in Belgard, Tallaght. That will be important to us in assessing where that opportunity is at going forward and how we might make that work with assistance from the Department and if we can make it work, how it might be replicated in other locations. I thank the Deputy,

Chairman

I have to end that session now but Deputy Higgins can come in again in the second round of questions. We will move on to Deputy Duffy.

Deputy Francis Noel Duffy

I thank the officials from South Dublin County Council and Fingal County Council for joining us to discuss the delivery of Housing for All. Their opening statements were insightful and welcome and like other committee members I would like to acknowledge the work they do to deliver homes in difficult circumstances. I was a councillor on South Dublin County Council and I know the great work it has done across the county. I witnessed and appreciated the ongoing continuous work staff did to build homes.

I have four short questions for both councils. Regarding tenants in situ, are the councils actively buying properties from landlords and have the councils made landlords aware this option is available?

Mr. Colm Ward

We are actively pursuing situations where tenants have notices to quit and engaging with landlords to purchase. It is not something we have advertised but it has gained enough traction in the media for people to be aware that where people are in those situations we are interested in purchasing the property to prevent homelessness.

Deputy Francis Noel Duffy

That is great. I thank Mr. Ward.

Mr. Robert Burns

We are in a similar situation in Fingal. We are open to it and take expressions of interest from landlords where notice to quits have been issued. We have a flexible policy on that. There are a lot of extenuating factors in the situation, such as the number of people in the home, so we assess this on a case-by-case basis but we are taking a very careful look at those when they come into us.

Deputy Francis Noel Duffy

Have vacant unit officers been in a position to assess vacancy? Have they been able to project numbers that are possible to bring to the social and rental market?

Mr. Colm Ward

We have a vacant homes officer post in place. That was always supplemented by staff on the ground doing inspections. As the chief executive outlined earlier there is a imited number of potentially vacant properties. I think there are 73 at the moment that we are engaging with on an ongoing basis, doing inspections, engaging with the registered owner, and so on. However it is yielding very little traction in terms of bringing them back into stock for us because a lot of them are tied up in litigation, mortgage default and the fair deal scheme.

Deputy Francis Noel Duffy

That is fair enough.

Mr. Robert Burns

While the vacancy rate in Fingal is quite low we take the view that there is not really an acceptable rate. We are looking at approximately 17 properties per 1,000 based on the 2016 census. The vacancy rate is just over 4%. Even over the past three years we have brought 70 private vacant properties back into use. We use the various tools available to us, such as buy and renew and repair and lease. The real skill of the team is being able to engage on the ground with the property owners, walking the streets, and finding out what is happening. A lot of our successes come from informal engagement as much as formal engagement. As the chief executive mentioned in his opening statement we are looking at a data project that will reconcile the three main sets of data that are out there nationally. We are looking at that to see if we can get one considered overall system to try to assess and record vacancy where it arises, and Fingal is part of that pilot project.

Deputy Francis Noel Duffy

I thank Mr. Burns. How many cost-rental homes, if any, have been delivered at this stage? Do the witnesses have an estimated delivery for 2023 and 2024?

Mr. Colm Ward

There were 74 cost-rental units in the Kilcarbery mixed tenure development on council-owned land. There are a further 44 in total due for delivery this year through AHBs. They will pick up on delivery next year as well. Our first projected delivery of cost rental is in 2024 with 133 units in Belgard, as the chief executive referenced earlier.

Mr. Robert Burns

Given that it is a relatively new tenure, we are just ramping up to that. We will probably have our first cost rental in late 2023 but more likely in 2024. We plan to have 80 cost-rental units on the Churchfield site, which is at tender stage at the moment. We are working with our other partners, the AHBs and LDA. The LDA have two large sites in the Fingal area in Skerries and Balbriggan and there is a significant proportion of cost rental there. The housing delivery action plan is a combination of the efforts of the delivery partners and not just on the local authorities but we are delivering social, cost-rental and affordable purchases on our own lands as well.

Deputy Francis Noel Duffy

Who oversees that? Is it the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage? Would its officials have the figures or is it the LDA, AHBs and the councils? Is there one person with that number?

Mr. Robert Burns

As regards our targets, the housing delivery action plan is set with the local authorities. The Department also has relationships with the AHBs and the LDA. From a housing authority point of view, we have close relationship with AHBs, the LDA and one could even say with private developers because they are responsible for delivering Part V. Four main actors are, therefore, involved in housing and all have to do their part. From a local authority point of view we would see ourselves as a facilitator and a builder of homes as well within the county.

Deputy Francis Noel Duffy

My last question is about the issues witnesses are facing on the delivery side. I was watching in my office and I know they discussed some of them earlier Is there anything this side of the table can do in pushing the issues they are facing?

Mr. Daniel McLoughlin

It is a difficult period for public works contracts generally. I am pretty certain that, while I am obviously not in tune with the workings of government, it is pretty clear that there is a resolve around seeing this through. That behoves us all to keep going in that direction. It will be a difficult and quite costly period. The prospects on the easing of inflationary pressures and an easing of supply chain issues are positive, the latter of which is already easing. Given where we are at as regards housing demand and housing issues we have no choice in pushing through. That has got to be our resolve collectively.

Deputy Francis Noel Duffy

Okay, I thank Mr. McLoughlin.

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

I think it is important to understand that as a local authority we are both a planning and a housing authority. We need to monitor what is happening on the private sites as well as planning on our own public lands, and making sure that we remove all obstacles. Deputy McAuliffe mentioned URDF earlier which is infrastructural funding. We need to make sure that all those delivering infrastructure are delivering on the right sites at the right time to get those activated. We are keeping the lands that are not activating despite having planning permission under review and trying to unlock the problems there. As everyone knows, cost of units is a problem right now, so we are trying to deal with those costs and to come up with new ways of delivery. We are also making sure that State intervention in terms of funds for social units works well, and leverages the activation of sites where private funds might also deliver units.

Chairman

I call Senator Boyhan, who has seven minutes.

Senator Victor Boyhan

I thank the chief executives and to echo the comments of all members in acknowledging the enormous work that they do, along with their teams, in what is a very difficult time. I also point out that I am particularly glad to see Ms Egan and Mr. Burns, both of whom would have been in Dun Laoghaire when I was there. Ms Farrelly has clearly taken a lot of talent from there because I know she has other staff from my former council working with her as well. I hope that is assisting her in rolling out and delivering the exemplary targets that were mentioned earlier.

I want to raise two or three issues and to deal with Fingal first. It is a unique, very exciting and dynamic council. I acknowledge that on a range of fronts, particularly in housing. It also has enormous potential and undeveloped land. There are demographics peculiar to Fingal as opposed to the other three Dublin local authorities. There is clearly potential. Ms Farrelly, in engagement with her elected members in the process of a county development plan, flagged the lack of suitably zoned lands in Fingal ownership to enable future construction programmes. That is within the ownership of Fingal post-2026. We are now in 2022. That is an alarming issue, and one I presume there is a strategy in place to deal with, and I would like to hear that. There is also a lack of suitably zoned land available for sale in Fingal. We know that and Ms Farrelly pointed it out. She also said that Fingal was a housing authority and a planning authority, which is. The council has its eye on all aspects of land transactions. However, I would like her to touch on that and tell us what the plan is and how she will navigate that challenge.

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

I will reassure the Senator that there are almost 1,000 ha of zoned land for housing in Fingal. That has the potential for 32,000 units. That is above our targets in the national planning framework and the regional strategies. We are working that through during the development plan process. We need to keep at least a ten year horizon in terms of land in our ownership that is suitable for our own development. That is the point I made earlier. All of our sites are currently in play, but we have a good strategy. We know the lands that are likely to come into play next.

In terms of land for sale in Fingal, that is continually under review. It is a dynamic situation that can change rapidly. We have good self-sustaining communities in Fingal, like the towns of north County Dublin, and the Dublin 15 area, which is more urban. The Senator is right when he said there are opportunities. We work through that as a public authority and we also try to activate land in private ownership. It is about using all the leverage available to us to activate that land. I mentioned a large land bank we are hopeful will be the next strategic land bank in Fingal. That is in Dunsink. There are a number of similar things in play, where we have a longer term horizon.

Senator Victor Boyhan

That is great. I thank Ms Farrelly. The other issue is this Irish Water infrastructure deficit, which is preventing the council from developing some of the smaller sites for social housing. Is there anything Government can do there? What is the block?

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

In relation to infrastructure generally, I have operated a plan of knowing our sites, and knowing what infrastructure is needed and where. Some of our villages in north County Dublin would need some Irish Water infrastructure. They are aware of that and they have plans under way, but it can take time. However, for the big sites Irish Water has worked well with us to make sure the infrastructure is in place. I can give the example of Ballymastone in Donabate, where the Irish Water infrastructure was delivered on time to suit the opening up of those lands by some other road infrastructure.

Senator Victor Boyhan

Okay. There is one other thing I want to touch on, which is the Local Government Audit Service and the fact the local government auditor has expressed serious concern about the maintenance of the property asset registers in all of our Dublin authorities. Clearly, the more we have on that property asset register the more we can see if there is potential, in terms of our ownership, for the development of housing in what is a housing crisis. Is the council up to speed in terms of its property asset register or is that happening? Is there potential within that property portfolio to bring additional houses, or additional development for houses into play?

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

I want to reassure the Senator that we know all of the land we own, so there is no doubt about that. I think the auditor has mentioned the issue of reconciliation between the property register and the asset register. There is some work to be done there, but in terms of housing land to be brought to development we have a complete list of that and know exactly what is happening.

Senator Victor Boyhan

Is there any additional potential there that could be brought into play?

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

There is potential in the longer term horizon and in terms of the right zonings in the right places for housing delivery. That is something we are live to in the development plan process, just making sure that the right locations are zoned for the right uses.

Senator Victor Boyhan

Okay. In terms of the number of derelict sites on the derelict site register, be they sites or properties, how many, if any, would be in the ownership of Fingal County Council?

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

There is only one I am aware of. It had been on the derelict sites register, but it came off because we put it under a CPO. None is in our ownership at present.

Senator Victor Boyhan

Can I just touch on one point in terms of south Dublin, and that is Clonburris and the issue around the appropriate mix of tenure types? I will come back on the second round if I need more time. Can Mr. McLoughlin take us through the tenure mix that is being proposed?

Mr. Daniel McLoughlin

We have 29% of the Clonburris SDZ. That gives capacity for 2,600 houses. We have broken that down into six phases. Each of those phases has a 40:30:30 mix. That is 40 social, 30 cost rental, and 30 affordable sale. That is where things are at right now. We have planning permission Part 8 approval for phases one and two. Phases three, four and five were going out for a collective tender for an overarching design team plus three sub teams to develop those as one block application to An Bord Pleanála. However, they will be designed in tandem by three different teams of three phases with one planning application. That is where that is at.

Senator Victor Boyhan

That is great.

Chairman

I call Deputy Cian O'Callaghan.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

I thank both the local authorities for their opening statements, and as has already been said, for all of the work that has been done by the witnesses and their teams at local authority level. It is very much appreciated. I want to ask both local authorities a general question. What is the biggest challenge in terms of maximising delivery of social, affordable and cost-rental homes, exceeding their targets and delivering more than they are currently setting out to do? What could be done to support and help in terms of meeting those challenges, and exceeding those targets or providing more homes that are needed? Maybe South Dublin could answer first.

Mr. Daniel McLoughlin

There is a bunch of related challenges now around tender hesitancy, which we believe will pass. The other to relate to that is in terms of price inflation and the capacity of the construction sector which has taken a bit of a step back. In terms of tender hesitancy, I mentioned the two stage process to Deputy Ó Broin. You have stage one where people who come through and are nominated to stage two. People fall off. That is one piece of hesitancy. The second piece is where people go forward for the final tender, and they are finding it difficult to get their main subcontractors to price stuff. That slows down the tenders so you are getting one, two, or perhaps three requests to extend the tender period. The third issue is having gotten the tender and you ask them to confirm their price, sometimes they are taking a step back and saying they need to check something. That could take a month or two longer than normal. That is a package of issues with us for the here and now and we have to work through those. They are what they are. We will work through them, and I think we will get there.

Beyond that, the issues will tend to be around the planning and judicial review scenarios in terms of that level of uncertainty. I mentioned earlier the issue around the need to get a particular consultant in a particular discipline at a point in time. They are the two things I would identify in terms of ramped-up capacity in the environmental sciences, ecology, bat surveys and winter bird surveys. This whole area is so dynamic and so difficult in terms of the current litigious environment we operate in. That is the best answer I can give you the Deputy in terms of an honest assessment of the here and now and the likely challenges.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

In terms of the expertise needed, it is very much on the environmental side?

Mr. Daniel McLoughlin

It is very much on the environmental side, yes.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

There are just not enough people with the skills available.

Mr. Daniel McLoughlin

I do not have a number but the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage would have a number for how many sites are on the go on both the private and public sides. That is on housing alone. Add in to that the broader layer of public works contracts. Having consultants to do environmental surveys, ecology surveys and bats and bird surveys across all those sites is clearly a challenge. I do not mean to be unfair but some of it is bitty work. Some of it is very substantial work so that skill set is in high demand right now as the economy is flourishing.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

I thank Mr. McLoughlin. I address the same question to Fingal County Council.

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

Not to repeat anything Mr. McLoughlin said, all of the means of housing delivery, whether it is private, social or affordable, is inter-dependent. Making sure everything moves at the same time is important. There is an issue of viability and the higher densities in Fingal, particularly in the north county area, are difficult to make viable. We need to look at more innovative forms of delivering high densities, so that they are more viable. This uncertain period, which hopefully will pass, has the potential to delay some of these schemes as we move through the tender process.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

Can Ms Farrelly expand on the higher densities and making them viable? It seems to be an issue across the country that some of the higher density planning permissions are not getting built out.

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

It is worth a review to see how different methodologies might work for delivering higher densities. They are needed and we have good public transport corridors in Fingal that require, and where there should only be, high density. I am suggesting that it might be worth looking at how that higher density might be delivered, particularly to deliver that own-door unit demand which remains the case in many of our areas.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

The pipeline of land was very much highlighted as an issue in the comments here today and in the Dublin task force delivery report. Can the witness tell us a bit about increasing the land bank? How is it funded? Is it primarily focused on land that is zoned for residential development or is it focused on land that is not currently zoned for residential?

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

It is true to say that every local authority requires some forward funding for land purchase so that they are in a position to react when the land becomes available. At present, it is funded with the housing delivery. Bearing in mind the time scale involved, this can be difficult for any of the councils to fund. Some forward funding of land purchase, which I understand the Department is open to, would be a good idea.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

Okay, so there has not been a funding stream for that forward funding to date to ensure there is a sufficient pipeline so that land can be purchased at good value as well.

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

We got some land at good value ten years ago through the land aggregation scheme. That worked quite well. Some of that land remained in our ownership and more of it was transferred to the Housing Agency. I did not answer the Deputy's point about zoned or unzoned land. We are in a good position to know where land is suitably located for housing so we should consider unzoned land as well. In our case, we have been able to avail of any opportunity that has arisen up to now in terms of land purchase.

I want to mention our town centres where there is considerable opportunity for in-fill and brownfield sites. For example, in Balbriggan, we have assembled some sites that will deliver housing in the centre of the town. It would be ideal if some of those funds were forward funded in order to assist us.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

It is fair to say that forward funding for land assembly and land pipeline is very important for the medium and long term.

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

Indeed, absolutely.

Senator Rebecca Moynihan

I am going to fly through some of the questions. The witnesses might not have all the information with them now but it would be good if they could get back to me. I am trying to get a handle from local authorities on a follow-up question in relation to the tenant in situ scheme.

I want to get a sense of it because it is always really difficult when one looks at the numbers of planned housing delivery when it comes to actual need. With a growing population we have an expanding need, so I want to get a sense of the need in each local authority and how long the lists are taking to clear, even with the planned expansion of some of the direct delivery. Can I get a sense from each of the local authorities of how big the social housing lists are in terms of numbers and on average, how long is it taking for somebody to be allocated a home? Is there any indication of how many people have been turned down in terms of the social housing lists in 2021 and 2022 on the basis of not satisfying the income limits? As I am sure everyone is aware, income limits have not been revised since 2011. There is a report with the Minister at the moment but I want to get a sense of how many people are applying and being turned down. If the social housing income limits were increased by 10%, how many more people would then be coming on to the list?

Cost rental is 306 for South Dublin County Council but I would also like to get a sense of what the demand for those planned cost-rental units is? Then I want to come back to figures the witnesses might not have. This is the number of people in 2022 presenting to homeless action who are coming from the private rented sector. Do the witnesses have an idea of how many people with an eviction ban put in place would be presenting to the councils from homelessness from the private rented sector? If the witnesses have that information would they also have a breakdown of those who would be in receipt of social support and those who would not be? In this way, we could get an idea of what the numbers for the tenant in situ scheme could potentially be. That is an awful lot questions and I understand if the witnesses do not have the information with them.

I would like to ask both local authorities about the operation of the tenant in situ scheme. What blockages are being encountered and what issues are the local authorities facing where acquisitions cannot be made? I understand that there are reasons that housing might not be appropriate and about buying for somebody who might have a greater housing need and it would be considered to be over crowding. I want to get a sense of what the main blockages are in the case of a house not being bought when somebody is on the tenant in situ scheme and what is coming up there. If the witnesses come back to me afterwards, I would appreciate that. I understand that some of those figures may be available and that some of them are not available. They are difficult to get, so that is why I am asking the witnesses for them when I have them here.

Mr. Colm Ward

The social housing list in south Dublin is approximately 6,600 households. The majority of those are single person households. The net need, once people who have applied to other local authorities as their local authority of preference, have been factored out, is just over 5,000 households. The average time for people to be accommodated is approximately seven years when all the priorities people get, including medical priority, to accelerate their time to be accommodated, are taken into account. We do not have the statistics to hand regarding how many do not qualify based on the income limits but cost rental will come into play for those households once we start delivering. We are seeing delivery in south Dublin already. We projected 306 cost-rental units in our delivery action plan but that is exclusive of the approved housing bodies delivery.

We anticipate in the region of 500 units of cost-rental for our housing bodies, particularly with the changes in the cost-rental equity loan, CREL, scheme that have been mentioned recently.

Regarding the momentum of people presenting as homeless, 600 new households have engaged with our homeless services this year to either seek prevention advice or to say that they potentially may become homeless. That has not translated. We have had a net increase, I think, of about 40 households from the start of the year to now when one takes into account the households that have come on and others that have been accommodated or provided with HAP support. Out of those 600 households, I think 170 or so presented with a notice to quit from a private rented situation. That will give the committee an indication of the potential of that situation. We are working through all of the tenant in situ applications we are getting from landlords. We are not seeing that many applications - I think around 30 HAP tenants' landlords have presented to us offering the opportunity to purchase those properties.

Senator Rebecca Moynihan

Does South Dublin County Council ever go to them?

Mr. Colm Ward

We wait and see. We have not been seeking out or soliciting solutions like that. If it is available to us to purchase we then engage and assess the suitability of that property for the household's needs. That is on a case-by-case basis.

Mr. Robert Burns

We will have to come back to the Senator about some of the data. There is quite a lot of detail. On our overall housing list numbers, there are almost 14,000 - 13,811 to be precise. The Fingal approved applicant figure on that list is 6,292. It is growing. I will come back to the Senator about the time on the list. I do not want to give an incorrect figure. The Senator asked what the impact of the social housing 10% limit increase would be. We can come back to the Senator about that to see what the impact might be.

On the cost-rental demand, in Fingal we have projected affordable housing delivery of over 3,000 during that timeframe, which is a mix of purchase and cost-rental. We are looking at around 2,000 cost-rental, I think, over that timeline. It is hard to put a measure on demand. The criteria may be slightly different for the approved housing bodies. There is no local authority in this space delivering cost-rental yet. It remains to be seen how soon this may operate in practice. On the number of families presenting as homeless, there were 568 as of 18 October this year. We have 180 families overholding on notice to quit, that we are aware of. I referred in my earlier answer to how we are assessing or dealing with those expressions of interest. Generally speaking, people selling the property will approach us. They contact us and we provide the information. We also get that information from tenants or through our HAP processes. We would also consider it where a tenant may be at risk of homelessness but we have not gotten direct contact from the landlord. Everything is on a case-by-case basis. We are conscious that by not dealing with it we may be dealing with a homeless situation that impacts our services elsewhere. It is something we are giving careful consideration to. There are vulnerable families in need. It is getting high priority from us, particularly over the winter months.

Senator John Cummins

I thank the council representatives for appearing before the committee today. We appreciate them telling the committee what is and is not working well and how we can try to improve delivery across all streams. I will start, as I have with other local authorities, by focusing on the issue of vacancy and dereliction. Notwithstanding what was said in the opening statement by South Dublin County Council about having low vacancy, my own county, Waterford, also has a low vacancy rate, yet it has been able to use schemes like the repair and leasing scheme to activate units. I note that Fingal County Council has delivered 28 units under the repair and leasing scheme, 16 under compulsory purchase orders, and seven under the buy and renew scheme. South Dublin County Council has not delivered a single unit under the repair and leasing scheme. How many have been delivered under the buy and renew scheme? Has South Dublin County Council used CPOs to date?

Mr. Daniel McLoughlin

On the vacancy rate, obviously, there is a significant different between County Waterford and south County Dublin.

Senator John Cummins

There are similarities with Fingal-----

Mr. Daniel McLoughlin

I understand that. The facts outlined in the opening statement are as they are. There has been no uptake despite repeated requests and repeated advertising of the repair and renew scheme.

Senator John Cummins

Of the 72 units South Dublin County Council has identified as derelict, what has it actively done to get them into play or-----

Mr. Daniel McLoughlin

I did not say they were derelict. They are vacant. They were not derelict.

Senator John Cummins

Those were the words used.

Mr. Daniel McLoughlin

They were vacant.

Senator John Cummins

There were 72 vacant.

Mr. Daniel McLoughlin

That is technically correct; they are potentially vacant. We have had a vacant homes officer in place for the last three or four years. We have engaged with all of those parties. As the Senator knows, the vacancy definition does not force people to engage on these worthwhile Government schemes.

On the Senator's last question about CPOs, we acquired three. There are four currently under process in CPOs.

Senator John Cummins

One of the points raised by Cork and Dublin city council specifically on the repair and leasing scheme was that the €60,000 figure was possibly too low, yet Fingal County Council has delivered 28 units under the scheme in County Dublin, which is more challenging in delivery costs. Has Fingal County Council found that €60,000 threshold a barrier? Would it be in favour of a higher threshold in that respect?

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

It is a challenge, there is no doubt. In Fingal, there are low density approaches in some of our towns and villages, particularly in north County Dublin. The €60,000 may go further in that type of environment. Certainly, for some of the properties we are looking at, if they need significant refurbishment, €60,000 will not go anywhere near dealing with it. For those that have successfully gone through that process, it is probably a combination of the €60,000 and additional funds from private owners.

Senator John Cummins

Is it delivery of multiple units within the same building? Has that helped, because it is €60,000 per unit as opposed to per property?

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

I am not aware of that being used successfully in Fingal. Perhaps Mr. Burns wishes to comment.

Mr. Robert Burns

Our figures show that it is largely single properties being activated in this way. It has been used with multiple units and in estates. It is something we are looking at more and more. Our housing stock in the Fingal area is relatively new, so it is one-off. The view is that one house in an estate can start to have a knock-on impact so we have tended to get involved early on. The repair and leasing scheme was useful, but looking at the tools we have, there are further tools available. The Croí Cónaithe towns scheme is a good scheme. It is only at the early stages. There is a significant level of interest in the refurbishment scheme as opposed to the site scheme - that is a maximum of €50,000 for a principal private residence. We hope that in the next few weeks we will have our first successful grant going through on that scheme. That is positive. It could be added to the suite of tools.

Senator John Cummins

Has there been interest in the Croí Cónaithe scheme in south County Dublin?

Mr. Daniel McLoughlin

The bids are being taken in through the housing agency and the Land Development Agency, LDA, is working with them. I have not seen the expressions of interest so I am not sure. The most recent-----

Senator John Cummins

Why would Mr. McLoughlin not have seen them? The application is made to the local authority.

Chairman

It is for towns and villages now.

Senator John Cummins

It is being expanded to towns and cities.

Mr. Daniel McLoughlin

I think the city one is different.

Chairman

They are two separate schemes. Croí Cónaithe towns and Croí Cónaithe cities.

Senator John Cummins

The intention is that the €50,000 in the Croí Cónaithe scheme being referred to is to be extended to towns and rural one-off houses. Has there been any interest in that to date?

Mr. Colm Ward

We have not seen any under the Croí Cónaithe towns scheme.

Senator John Cummins

There is a significant joint venture development with Glenveagh in Donabate in Fingal. Is inflation a particular challenge to its delivery or is everything already locked in for the 1,200 homes? It is a significant development in the council’s area.

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

It is not an issue under our contract and we hope it does not become one. That scheme is going through the planning process at the moment, so I will not jeopardise it in discussing whether it might become an issue or be fixed into the costs at this stage. We hope it will be possible for it to be delivered on that basis.

Senator John Cummins

That is more than enough. Is Swords part of the 981 affordable housing units to be delivered by 2026 or is the council focusing on newer areas such as Donabate for delivery of cost rental and affordable purchase homes?

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

Significant numbers of houses have been delivered in Swords in recent years. Construction continued in parts of Swords throughout the more challenging times, and affordability has been delivered well. That is changing to some extent now but many transactions between ourselves and the approved housing bodies are taking place to deliver under the new schemes, so I see it playing a strong part into the future. Significant housing land is available in Swords.

Deputy Thomas Gould

I thank the witnesses for coming before the committee and providing information. We have a lot of work to do. We will pick their brains to understand what they are doing well and what we can improve on. We all need to work together for housing so I thank the witnesses.

My first question is slightly different from the other questions that were asked. I have asked and will ask it of every local authority before the committee. When people go into rehabilitation or recovery and spend three months, six months or longer there, does the council remove them from the housing list or suspend their claim while they are in rehabilitation?

Mr. Colm Ward

No, we do not. We support them in transitional accommodation and we have recently provided a transitional property outside Tallaght to help them with their progression back to taking a standard social housing tenancy, but we keep them on the list throughout.

Deputy Thomas Gould

Great stuff.

Mr. Robert Burns

Similarly we support people through recovery.

Deputy Thomas Gould

I thank the witnesses. It is just that I know of one or two local authorities that had that policy. It is great to hear that all six that have come before the committee so far have a progressive way of dealing with the issue.

My next point relates to the derelict sites levy. Fingal County Council has only 17 properties on the derelict sites register and South Dublin County Council did not have a figure but in 2020 it had ten. Why are so few properties on the register and why are levies not being collected?

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

In our case there is very little dereliction and we are thankful for that. Most of it relates to site assembly for future development. We try to work with private owners to try to address potential dereliction early.

Mr. Colm Ward

We are engaging with the owners of 12 properties about collection of levies. I do not have the exact collection rate here but I can follow up with it.

Deputy Thomas Gould

The derelict sites legislation is 32 years old. It is important that every local authority enforces legislation that was passed by the State. Some of the main issues in housing are vacancy and dereliction, especially dereliction, and the onus is on the councils to ensure every cent of the levy is collected and every site is on the derelict sites register. Only 29 sites between two large local authorities seems like a small number, but perhaps I do not know the areas well enough. Certainly, 29 sites seems very low. Is that a fair comment?

Mr. Robert Burns

I will add that what the Deputy sees on the list is the current number and what is subject to ongoing investigation. We have taken 35 sites or dwellings off the list. They have gone through a process and come out the other end. They either form part of a planning permission or have become productive sites of some kind.

Deputy Thomas Gould

Were their levies paid while they were on the derelict sites register?

Mr. Robert Burns

I will come back to the Deputy on that. As regards taking action, our purpose is to get those sites off the register and into productive use. For the 35 we moved off the register, I will come back to the Deputy on the nature of the levies and what was paid.

Mr. Daniel McLoughlin

In our case, I agree the number is small but south Dublin is a relatively new area. The vast majority of the land around the M50 and west of it was developed in the past 20 years. It is correct that the numbers are low but they should be in a relatively new suburban area.

Deputy Thomas Gould

My next question relates to affordable purchase homes. How much do the councils deliver a two or three bedroom home for in their areas?

Mr. Colm Ward

The only affordable purchase units we are delivering this year are being sold for between €245,000 and €285,000 to eligible applicants based on their household income. They are three bedroom duplex properties.

Deputy Thomas Gould

Two and three.

Mr. Colm Ward

Just three bedroom properties.

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

I mentioned the Dun Emer site in Lusk earlier. Those properties start at €166,000 and go up to €252,000 for a three bedroom semi-detached house. We will go on site in Rush shortly. Those properties will cost from €265,000 to €285,000 for a two bedroom apartment up to a three bedroom terraced house. They are particularly good value. We will need to work through the new schemes to see where they end up.

Deputy Thomas Gould

The €166,000 of the first scheme seems like great value. How was the council able to deliver that kind of affordability?

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

I acknowledge the serviced sites fund that delivered the infrastructure to the site and helped to contribute to the ultimate unit cost. That was the most significant factor.

Deputy Thomas Gould

The other figures are €100,000 or €120,000 more. Why has there been such an increase? From €166,000 to €285,000 is a huge disparity.

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

One site cannot be compared with another. They have different designs and many other factors that might contribute. Timing and the current levels of inflation are factors. The site in Rush for which I gave the latest figures was recently tendered. It is a factor of the circumstances we are in right now.

Deputy Thomas Gould

How much does the council hope to deliver cost rental properties for?

Mr. Daniel McLoughlin

We are in the process of assessing a tender on a 133-apartment scheme. The rents of €1,000, €1,100 and €1,200 often referred to in the general narrative that prevailed around cost rental at the start of the conversation three years ago are challenging to achieve in the current environment. The Minister has increased the serviced sites fund supports to €150,000 per unit. Once we apply that, we will see where it takes us. We have ambition around it. A general expectation that all cost rental units can be delivered for approximately €1,000 per month is probably a little ambitious in today's environment, although we certainly consider it to be a big part of our housing delivery. We will know more in about a month.

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

A number of approved housing bodies are delivering cost rental units in Fingal this year and they are translating into rents of €1,300 per month which, to reiterate Mr. McLoughlin's point, is challenging. We aim to deliver an affordable rent.

Deputy Thomas Gould

Are those one, two or three-bedroom properties for €1,300?

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

That is a two bedroom unit.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

I thank the witnesses for coming in and I thank everyone who works in both of the county councils. They are challenging environments. They are to be commended on their great achievements over recent years.

It is welcome to see that, combined between both councils, between social and affordable homes, we are up around 12,000 homes. That is ambitious and welcome, and it will go a long way to meeting the need. The fact witnesses have demonstrated how local authorities can deliver quantum, high quality and can use State-owned lands to address the cost and affordability issues is to be commended.

The witnesses mentioned affordable pricing starting at €166,000. I welcome Deputy Gould's welcoming of the strong Government policy that has enabled delivery on that affordable price. He should consider supporting us a bit more because you never know what we could achieve together. On a serious note, the changed circumstances and the double digit construction inflation the witnesses mentioned is very real and anybody who is trying to do any work in their own home will know that. Delivery of affordability into the future and affordable cost rental will be critical. I appreciate witnesses cannot give us an actual rental price, but the fact they are working to deliver at a minimum of 25% below market rents is what people need to know they are actually doing.

In terms of increasing the output, I believe Mr. McLoughlin said it was four years from start to finish for a project. I agree with him, and if it was four years, we would all be able at least to work with that certainty. From my experience from a city perspective it can actually take a decade and sometimes longer, which is a big challenge for the city. One of the big challenges in the city is the planning process, which was mentioned, and the delays the process can cause, specifically when planning permissions are objected to and are caught up in the process. Will witnesses speak to how that is impacting or will impact on their pipelines going forward?

I would also like to ask about the homeless services. Dublin City Council operates the Dublin Region Homeless Executive. Between the two local authorities I believe there are around 1,200 applicants identified as homeless or at risk of homelessness. How many emergency homeless accommodations are they providing in their local authority areas? How many of those who are on their homeless lists or identified as being homeless are actually being accommodated in emergency accommodation in the city? If the witnesses do not have that number to hand, they can come back to me with it. I would like to understand that.

The costs are very challenging, but the last estimate I had of the cost of emergency accommodation for a family for a year is €80,000. Is that a charge the witnesses would identify as being the cost? It is important that, if that is the case, we keep that in mind when we talk about the cost of new builds. No emergency accommodation is a substitute for an actual home.

As for the tenants in situ process, have witnesses instructed their housing officers to ask, when someone who is on the housing list comes to them with a notice to quit, if the landlord is selling and if he or she will sell to the local authority? If not, would the witnesses consider doing that?

The Croí Cónaithe scheme is being extended to the cities, something my party colleagues and I have pushed hard for. I am concerned about the value of €50,000 for a vacant and derelict property or €30,000 for a vacant property in the city. Do the witnesses think that will be sufficient to trigger a renovation and regeneration of vacant and derelict properties in their local authorities?

I appreciate there are a lot of questions, but perhaps we could start with Fingal County Council and then move to South Dublin County Council.

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

I thank Senator Fitzpatrick and I might ask Mr. Burns to come in on some of those questions. On the planning process we estimate about a year for the planning process.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

It adds?

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

No. A year is what we would provide for in our programme. Once it goes beyond that, it does delay overall delivery. The more efficient the process, the better. I mentioned Part 8 being quite efficient, but certainly when we are into the permission and appeals situation, anything above a year will significantly delay the project.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

Does Ms Farrelly have any idea of how much of a delay is added? If a year is being allowed for planning in the project plan, but when there are objections, it is appealed to An Bord Pleanála and it is then pushed to a judicial review, how much extra time has to be added beyond the year that has already been built in to the project plan?

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

It could be a year or two-----

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

An additional year or two.

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

-----if judicial review is included. I would say a year or two additional to the year we planned for.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

Okay, so we could actually talking about three years just in planning?

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

Indeed, and we mentioned earlier the need for good baseline reports and site assessments to make sure there is robust planning, and that is the approach we would take to make sure that, if it is challenged, it can stand. That would be our hope and ambition anyway.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

Is that the same experience, time-wise, when it comes to planning in south County Dublin?

Mr. Daniel McLoughlin

Pretty much. The four years I mentioned earlier related to a large site. A smaller site would not take four years, but on average four years would be what we would need to be planning for. Whether it is housing or something else, if somebody has it in their mind to challenge something the whole way through An Bord Pleanála, through the High Court, and the Supreme Court, four years would not-----

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

You would not notice it passing.

Mr. Daniel McLoughlin

Exactly.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

Yes, and all the time people are in emergency accommodation. I come back to Fingal on my questions on homelessness. How many emergency homeless accommodations are provided for within Fingal County Council?

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

I will ask Mr. Burns to come in on some of the detail but I agree with Senator Fitzpatrick's point that it is the most costly form of housing supply, so that is why we work so hard to deliver everything else.

Chairman

It is coming up to eight minutes on the slot, so perhaps Mr. Burns could be as brief as possible, please.

Mr. Robert Burns

In headline terms, we have 150 families in commercial hotels and bed and breakfast accommodation as part of the accommodation offering there-----

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

In Fingal?

Mr. Robert Burns

Yes. There are also family hubs in place and we have 61 families in all the range of family hubs - six- in the area. We have other supported accommodation for people with particular needs. Then there is sharing of accommodation and our needs across the city and the other local authority areas within Dublin.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

So Fingal is providing about a third of the accommodation for those on its homeless list, roughly speaking.

Mr. Robert Burns

That can change because-----

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

Of course.

Mr. Robert Burns

-----of what temporary accommodation is available in the county, and it is quite stretched at the moment.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

Okay, go raibh maith agat.

Mr. Colm Ward

There is a similar situation in south Dublin. We have just over 500 homeless households. Many of those would be in single emergency accommodation in the city centre. We have 61 families in self-accommodate. We have more than 100 specific homeless places in south Dublin. We are on the cusp of opening a new scheme which is a family hub in Clondalkin and we have others planned in the county.

Chairman

We are up to nine minutes, Mr. Ward. There is a further Fianna Fáil slot during which Senator Fitzpatrick can contribute. I will take the next slot, and I thank Senator Boyhan for offering it to me, because I have to speak shortly. I will set the timer and keep myself to the same time.

First, there is a common theme when we bring in local authorities. We are aware of the staff constraints, the recruitment and retention of staff, and the difficulties with the existing inflationary costs, and it is common across the board. One the environmental surveys Mr. McLoughlin mentioned which are necessary, is there scope for some environmental surveys to be carried out at an earlier stage than the planning permission stage? The council owns this land and will put residential or mixed use units on it. Is there a scoping baseline of environmental survey that could be done so there is not that difficulty when the planning permission stage is reached?

Mr. Daniel McLoughlin

That is a good point and one that will be very important to examine in more detail. The situation is that a baseline survey is done prior to planning, but once we get into the permission and detailed design stage, we have do the detailed environmental impact analysis.

To the Chair's point, take the Clonburris strategic development zone, SDZ, for example. It was developed as an SDZ and would have had a complete environmental analysis done at the stage of developing the planning scheme that is called an SDZ. Two years later, following approval of the SDZ, you have to go back and do an environmental analysis. Environmental reports do not hold up for an extended period of time because of the fluid nature of our natural environment because growth patterns, habitation patterns, winter birding and the different seasonal patterns of fauna and flora vary over time and-----

Chairman

Does it take some of the leg work out if you have done the baseline stuff at SDZ stage and then you come along to detail?

Mr. Daniel McLoughlin

The baseline survey indicates clearly that there is no problem at face value or at desktop level. Otherwise, you should not proceed, in terms of a desktop analysis. Once you get into the detailed design, you have to look at the fine grain. You have to get really into it. There is no avoiding it. If there was an understood timeframe within which environmental analysis was verifiable or had a shelf-life, for want of a better expression, that would be worthwhile. I am not sure if that is possible. I have never heard a consensus around it.

Chairman

We brought in planning exemptions last year where planning permission is not required to bring town centre buildings back into use. Have either of the local authorities been notified of such cases at this stage?

Mr. Daniel McLoughlin

Not that I am aware of, no.

Chairman

I wonder about awareness of some of these things. The figures from Fingal, I think, on cost-rental are promising. I think it is up to 1,900 between Fingal cost-rental, LDA cost-rental and AHB cost-rental between 2022-26. I am conscious that we only delivered cost-rental into the legislation just over a year ago. It is a new concept. Where the local authority has a cost-rental scheme, is the local authority the agent or rent collector?

Mr. Daniel McLoughlin

It can be, or it could be assigned to an AHB.

Chairman

That is your understanding. It would be a local authority cost-rental but it would be signed over to an AHB at the end?

Mr. Daniel McLoughlin

Either-or. There may be collaboration at the point of construction regarding who builds, but the most likely current scenario is that an AHB develops and retains ownership and have the AHB as an operating partner, perhaps.

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

We are reviewing options as to what the management model might be. We have to make sure that the asset is secured. We are looking at various options.

Chairman

I am interested in the data set analysis pilot project Mr. Burns spoke about. The committee did a comprehensive report on vacancy, dereliction and urban regeneration. There is a narrative that there are 160,000 vacant houses and we should be able to get people into them straight away. It is not as simple as that. If it was, we would be doing it and the county councils would be doing it as well. One thing that became apparent in the research we did was that there is a varying level of collection of data sources and then a score condition is attached to those buildings as well, based on criteria such as whether they are habitable or in need of a bit of work or a full refurbishment. Will Mr. Burns tell the committee about the pilot project? It would be very helpful.

Mr. Robert Burns

It is at an early stage. We are just putting together the terms of reference. The purpose is essentially to reconcile the three key data sets around the census figures, the GeoDirectory and the local property tax, LPT, figures collected by Revenue. All three are different, so one may not be comparing like with like and there may be a need for a common basis for assessment. The most robust data is the data around the GeoDirectory. It is easier to identify that geographically because we are looking at Eircode postcodes as well.

There is also a piece of work around data associated with use or lack of use, for example, connections to ESB and broadband and transactions on the property register. We want to do a deeper dive into that data to try to understand it. Ultimately, like everything else, you can only look so much at the desktop study. It is then going to require a check on-site, so part of this project will involve looking at handheld devices, for example, doing inspections on-site, checking to see what is happening. Every vacant home has a story. That is the difficulty. Things may not be immediately apparent when you look at it. A lot of investigation is required around the circumstances, be it conveyancing, probate or a dispute that may be ongoing. There is quite a bit of work on that. We are looking at the pilot and I think very likely it will entail looking at additional staff in local authorities - that is what is being signalled - to do the inspection or checking work on the ground. We are hoping that it will give us a consistent set of figures and possibly a system that could be replicated across local authorities to allow them to compare like with like.

Chairman

That is really positive. That was one of the top recommendations from this committee in the report about the gathering of data and - I cannot remember who made the suggestion at the time - the use of geographic information system, GIS, data and mapping systems and the condition of the buildings and how much work is needed.

I call Senator Boyhan.

Deputy Emer Higgins took the chair.

Senator Victor Boyhan

We all know that the delivery of a significant proportion of social and affordable houses is dependent on the delivery of the private construction sector and the knock-on of the Part Vs, which I think Mr. McLoughlin mentioned earlier. It is hard to quantify that. Any slowdown in delivery of housing is going to have an impact on our Part Vs.

Looking at Clonburris, it has huge potential as an SDZ. There is a similar SDZ is Cherrywood but it is nothing like this. Will Mr. McLoughlin speak about the maximum capacity in terms of houses for an SDZ? There are varying numbers from 7,500 up to 11,000 houses maximum. What is the potential for housing across all delivery models? Mr. McLoughlin mentioned the appropriate mix of tenure earlier. He explained the 40:30:30 model. That is good. Will he comment on affordable price points in Clonburris?

Mr. Daniel McLoughlin

The planning scheme allows for potential development of up to 11,000 units. There are four landowners involved who have done an assessment of delivery across the next eight years as part of an urban regeneration and development fund, URDF, application, for which we received business-case approval for €186 million. We add on 25% to that. That approval is predicated on acceleration of delivery; that is the reason the funding was given. The delivery model over the next seven years is for about 7,500 homes. On the overall delivery, 2,500 of those are local authority homes; that is a 40:30:30 model. The balance, about 5,000 homes, will be subject to the standard 10% social housing Part V provision and will be subject the 10% affordable housing provision. That is how that will pan out.

Senator Victor Boyhan

What does Mr. McLoughlin expect out of that? He has already said that 2,500 houses are part of South Dublin County Council's own programme.

Mr. Daniel McLoughlin

The figure is 7,500 overall. Our 2,500 units are entirely social and affordable housing. Some 20% of the balance will be 10% social and 10% affordable. The net point is that the Affordable Housing Act 2021 was not in play at the time of approval of the SDZ, so it would not apply. The social dividend from the URDF approval is that it will apply, if that makes sense. As part of the application, the landowners, not just the local authority, but also the private landowners, agreed to give up 10% to affordable housing even though there was no legislation in place.

It is too early to say on the price point. We will have to make best use of the affordable housing fund to bring it down to a price point.

Senator Victor Boyhan

Will Mr. McLoughlin take a guess?

Mr. Daniel McLoughlin

I would not have a guess, that would be highly irresponsible of me. There is no hiding the fact that the private developers will be seeking to use the first home scheme and the affordable housing fund to bring houses on a rail line in what will be a sought-after location to a price point that is affordable.

Senator Victor Boyhan

That is helpful. I will throw out an idea to both of the chief executives. It has been suggested, not by me but by others, that there is a strong case for a Dublin housing delivery office that would provide a much more condensed, co-ordinated approach to the delivery of housing across the Dublin region. There are four local authorities in the region at present. Matters have moved on, but that is still being talked about in some quarters. Do the witnesses have a view on that? Do they think it is better to keep local knowledge, local drive and local teams? There is an argument for bringing in expertise and centralising matters. I would like to hear the witnesses' views. I do not necessarily subscribe to that idea. I believe in subsidiarity. I also believe that we should make as many decisions as possible at local level, but I would like to hear considered responses to the idea of a Dublin housing delivery office. Do the witnesses think that would be beneficial? Would we get a greater output, synergies or co-operation if that were to happen? I ask Ms Farrelly to respond.

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

We bought into co-ordination long ago. There are good relationships between all of the Dublin authorities. Not only with them but also with the LDA and others in order to ensure we are delivering for Dublin. Housing delivery comes down to the site at the end of the day. The key point is that local assessments will have to done no matter who is delivering the site. As I stated earlier, the Part A process is an efficient planning tool. I would be reluctant to lose that because it is helpful at local authority level. Co-ordination is absolutely key but I doubt it would change things if it were done through an office.

Senator Victor Boyhan

That is interesting.

Mr. Daniel McLoughlin

I will make two points. There was good reason for the subdivision of Dublin 26 or 27 years ago or whenever it was. One reason was the not-great story that could be told about the provision of housing en bloc across the county and the absence of accompanying or matching infrastructure and social provision. The four Dublin authorities have addressed that in their individual ways by retrofitting social infrastructure and planning infrastructure, rather than just housing, as they go. That is one clear point. I will also reiterate my colleague's point that everything is local. Whereas it may seem rather simplistic to not understand why people from Tallaght might not want to live in Clondalkin or the other side of the M50, these are issues of significant importance to people who grow up locally. Local housing provision must match local housing demand and 5 km in a in a city environment is like 50 km in Donegal. It is a big deal.

Senator Victor Boyhan

I agree with the witnesses. I just wanted to fly that flag to see what the response would be.

Deputy John Lahart

I am not on the housing committee but I wanted to take advantage of meeting old colleagues, managers and executives. I appreciate their time. I have a few preliminary questions for the chief executive. How many people are on the social housing list in south Dublin at present?

Mr. Colm Ward

Approximately 6,600 households are on the list.

Deputy John Lahart

Would some of those households comprise more than one family?

Mr. Colm Ward

A household is defined as a group of people within a family that applies to the council for housing. The vast majority are single-person households. There may be some multigenerational households or households comprising different families, but not many.

Deputy John Lahart

The bulk of people on the housing list are single applicants. When Mr. Ward says single households, that is not single people.

Mr. Colm Ward

It is.

Deputy John Lahart

It is single people. What proportion?

Mr. Colm Ward

It is over 50%, almost 55%.

Deputy John Lahart

Does Mr. Ward know the ratio of apartments to traditional houses in the mix of social housing provision to date. I thank the witnesses for the figures for 2021 and anticipated for 2022. I will focus entirely on South Dublin County Council. I am not deliberately excluding anyone. I hope the witnesses understand that.

Mr. Robert Burns

I would say they are pleased.

Deputy John Lahart

If I am asking Fingal County Council a question, something has gone radically wrong.

Mr. Colm Ward

To be honest, I do not know the mix of apartments and houses. We have tried to tailor housing delivery to increase one- and two-bedroom units in order to reflect the changing demographics of the housing demand we see locally. That is not to say that we are approaching 50% one-bedroom units in our housing delivery plan because we want our developments to be as sustainable as possible.

Deputy John Lahart

How many single applicants are in receipt of HAP?

Mr. Colm Ward

I will have to revert to the Deputy with the specifics of the households. Approximately 300 single-person households are homeless. The rest are in existing accommodation, are sharing accommodation or are in private rented accommodation. I can come back to the Deputy with specifics if that is okay.

Deputy John Lahart

Why is it that more than 50% are single? I am coming to Fingal County Council with a question. Is that also the experience in Fingal?

Mr. Robert Burns

There are similarities. I will have to come back to the Deputy with the exact breakdown but it is a feature of our housing demand. Single households are presenting and that is being catered for in our housing needs and delivery.

Deputy John Lahart

In the breakdown laid out in the first row of SDCC's table relating to social housing delivery for the period 2017-21, were the 1,774 that were completed all SDCC builds or do they include Part V completions?

Mr. Colm Ward

They include Part V completions and AHB delivery. All new builds within the county council's remit for social housing provision.

Deputy John Lahart

So that is the round total for SDCC, AHBs and everything that was either built or acquired. Have we a figure for what SDCC did directly?

Mr. Daniel McLoughlin

It was approximately 50%. Two times 25%. That could be one or two per cent out, but that is the pattern and it will be the pattern going forward.

Deputy John Lahart

So it is 50% - two times 25%.

Local authorities do not get the kind of money for maintenance that AHBs get for new builds. Is that correct? A figure for maintenance is built into the AHB piece or is it contained in the rent that is paid? In the private market it would be called a sinking fund. Has the traditional model been for AHBs to receive some funding to continue maintenance?

Mr. Colm Ward

Certainly not. There are two different funding models for the delivery of housing. AHBs receive a recurring paying subsequently which contributes to their borrowing costs. They receive a rental income, in the same way we would, to maintain the properties.

Deputy John Lahart

The total cost of ongoing maintenance then falls on AHBs and local authorities. Is that correct?

Mr. Colm Ward

There are some planned maintenance schemes that we receive central Government funding for. We get re-let funding as well. Considerable maintenance costs are funded by central government and the remainder are funded from rental income.

Deputy John Lahart

This will not make sense to many colleagues here. Do the figures for completions this year include sites where there was an issue with the construction company and have gone out to tender before construction will start again or are they pushed into 2023?

Mr. Colm Ward

The Deputy will be aware of two sites in south County Dublin. Both will be pushed out for delivery in 2023. We are trying to mitigate with alternative delivery sources for this year, but we are just plotting out various options.

Deputy John Lahart

The chief executive was very good to come back to me on the Ardstone development at Two Oaks in Scholarstown where 110 duplexes and in the region of 500 build-to-rent apartments,. There will be a proportion of social housing involved. My first question is when it might be anticipated that the first new tenants move in? Will it be before the end of this year or are we looking at 2023?

The second issue is rightsizing, which is outside the witnesses control and in respect of which they clearly do not have powers. It was anticipated locally that the 110 duplexes would be for sale. It was never specified in the planning application that they would be build-to-rent units but it looks like they will. This represents a major opportunity missed for people in a settled area who live in three-, four- or five-bed houses and who would like to remain in the area. These individuals will not remain in the area to rent but they would remain if they could buy. Is there anything we can learn from this matter? I live in the heart of the area, and this is really a missed opportunity. The local authority is not to blame. Is there something we can learn from this? There are 101 homes that could have been used to allow people to rightsize, thereby freeing up other houses in the area.

Mr. Daniel McLoughlin

I have a couple of points to make. The Deputy is right to bring this up. We discussed this privately before. When he was a councillor, two development plans evolved - not the current one but the one before that. For the first time, we introduced a proactive policy to encourage developments around rightsizing in the private sector. That has not taken hold at all, and it is difficult to understand why. Developers are probably more interested in developing at that scale. We cannot stipulate on planning permissions that a certain proportion of homes should be set aside for rightsizing. That is not envisaged in current planning policy at least.

On the rental-purchase side, it is only a hunch or a reaction to the Deputy's question, but I suggest that renting is quite lucrative in his neighbourhood. That is why developers are holding on to a portion of developments for long-term rental in quality locations. Mr. Ward can go through the detail of our scheme, which allows the opportunity for people to downsize and move into local authority-led developments. There is a formula for that. We have a rightsizing homes officer whose daily job is to speak to people about that opportunity on both sides, namely, the social housing side and the private housing side. Mr. Ward can give the statistics as to how that is going. It is going quite well. It is a key part of our housing strategy going forward. As we bring forward developments, hopefully the quality of them will entice more people to engage on that issue. It is an obvious problem. As already stated, on our social side we have an 11% rate of under-occupation. I am sure that is replicated in the part of Dublin that the Deputy lives in, with large houses and large gardens-----

Acting Chairman (Deputy Emer Higgins)

The Deputy's time is up. We might move on if that is okay?

Deputy John Lahart

I have one final-----

Acting Chairman (Deputy Emer Higgins)

The time is well up.

Deputy John Lahart

That is grant. I thank the Acting Chair for allowing me the time. I might wait.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Emer Higgins)

The Fine Gael slot is next and there are then four members to come in on the following round, so we should have enough room for everybody to speak. I can allow the Deputy in after that if he wishes.

Senator John Cummins

I am going to pursue the issue of rightsizing. Perhaps Mr. McLoughlin could expand on some of the comments he has already made. In my experience, what has worked well is when there are rightsizing options for people within their communities. That is what works best. We had an excellent presentation from Cork City Council last week on what it has done in the context of rightsizing options. On the community list to which Mr. McLoughlin referred, what percentage of the homes in schemes are being allocated to private individuals who wish to rightsize?

Mr. Colm Ward

The policy we have in place allows for up to 10% where demand allows. There are approximately 600 units envisaged in our five-year housing delivery action plan for age-friendly accommodation, and we also have more than 300 existing units. We are now allocating those on the basis that up to 10% will be allowed for community list applicants.

Senator John Cummins

To me, that seems quite low. Cork City Council indicated that 30% were being allocated for that. The advantage of this is that, on the other side, properties are moving into the local authority stock.

Mr. Colm Ward

Our community list only deals with private rightsizers. Up to 50% of new age-friendly schemes are ring-fenced for rightsizers either from the private sector or our own housing stock. Up to 10% of the scheme will be for private rightsizers who can pay a financial contribution to access the scheme and the other 40% of the scheme will be for our own tenants to rightsize into those schemes.

Senator John Cummins

What about the other 50%?

Mr. Colm Ward

The other 50% is for people form the housing list. We have more than 800 people aged 55 and over in single-person households on our housing list at present. We meet that demand also.

Senator John Cummins

Okay. I see the additional challenge SDCC has, which, perhaps, other local authorities do not have. Fingal is drawing up its development plan at present. Given what I said in terms of getting those rightsizing schemes close to the localities in which people live, is that a consideration for Fingal County Council's when it comes to the development plan? Are there sites which are not currently zoned residential but which are being looked at in that context? I often find, particularly in built-up urban areas, that the difficulty lies in getting a site that will facilitate the older generation because of the intergenerational changes in an area. It can be quite a challenge to get that site but is Fingal thinking outside the box in their development plan process in that regard?

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

Yes. We have some good strong policies now that are integrated into the draft plan about rightsizing and meeting the specific needs of elderly people and those with disabilities. We encourage that type of development in our town centres. We have not designated particular sites but the opportunity is there to do so in the context of many of the sites in the town centres. We would be less encouraging regarding the edge-of-town sites because we feel they have to be well-located and have services adjacent to them. In terms of the private market, the broader delivery of one- and two-bed units has helped.

Senator John Cummins

Sure.

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

In some of our coastal towns, there seems to be a good demand from the elderly population for units of that type. It is a work in progress but mostly it is about having the right dynamic in the planning policy to make sure it happens.

Senator John Cummins

I thank Ms. Farrelly. Another point that Deputy Lahart referenced relates to sinking funds, which do not exist in terms of local authority and AHB stocks. This is a constant bone of contention as regards maintenance. It is built into the cost-rental piece, which is obviously what makes it more attractive for AHBs in the context of wanting to deliver in that space, notwithstanding the challenges in terms of interest rate rises and the adjustments that have been made in context of the CREL scheme.

This question is specifically for SDCC. Other local authorities have tiered differential rent schemes. I understand that SDCC charges some of the lowest rents nationally. Does that impact on its ability to maintain existing stock? There was talk of a national differential rent scheme. Some local authorities, including my own in Waterford, have moved on and introduced tiered differential rent schemes. Does SDCC have any intention to introducing such a scheme?

Mr. Colm Ward

Since the standard of one of the lowest in the country was introduced a long time ago, we have made moves in recent years to increase social housing rent. We added a fixed €3 charge about three or four years ago. Approximately two years ago we introduced an additional 10% for households that had incomes in excess of the social housing income threshold. There is a tiered approach to households meaning those who could afford to pay more differential rent are now doing so.

Senator John Cummins

Okay, but there is no intention to introduce a scheme whereby for X bracket it would be 13%, 14%, or 15% and that this would be based on income?

The question is more tied in to whether it is impacting the council's ability to maintain its stock.

Mr. Colm Ward

To clarify, in the existing scheme a household living in one of our tenancies that is below the social housing income threshold will pay 10% of its net income as its rent. For every €10 earned above that, you pay 10% of it, so it is a tiered approach. In terms of the funding mechanism, we have quite a buoyant rent base and it covers our maintenance and management costs.

Senator John Cummins

I can wait until the next round to ask further questions if the Chair wishes.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Emer Higgins)

We have Sinn Féin up next. I call Deputy Gould.

Deputy Thomas Gould

I have a few questions. As I have been popping in and out, I apologise if they have been answered already. What are the net and gross numbers of people and families on the waiting lists?

Mr. Colm Ward

Our net figure is just over 5,000 and our gross is 6,600 on the social housing list.

Deputy Thomas Gould

When the witness says gross, does that include HAP, rental accommodation scheme, RAS, and rent allowance?

Mr. Colm Ward

No, it does not include any of those.

Deputy Thomas Gould

Were HAP, RAS, rent allowance or any other payments added, how many would there be?

Mr. Colm Ward

I think we are at about 5,700 HAP and RAS tenancies in the county.

Deputy Thomas Gould

Is that on top of the 6,600?

Mr. Colm Ward

That is on top of the 6,600, yes.

Deputy Thomas Gould

That brings it to 10,300 on the housing list in Fingal.

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

The gross figure is 13,800 and the net figure is 6,200. The 13,000 includes the HAP transfer list.

Deputy Thomas Gould

In relation to the vacancy and derelict sites units, are there full-time staff and how many are there? Is it one unit for derelict sites and vacant sites or are they separate?

Mr. Robert Burns

I will answer in relation to Fingal. Our vacant homes unit is within housing and it is somebody in my department. We have a full-time vacant home officer and two staff there. We are looking at what else we might need, so that is growing. We have had a vacant homes team in place for maybe five or six years. The derelict sites team sits within the planning department in Fingal and that would be typical of a lot of local authorities, so the two of them work very closely together. We exchange information and work together on things like enforcement or engagement with landowners.

Deputy Thomas Gould

Is there a person full-time dealing with dereliction?

Mr. Robert Burns

Yes. There is a derelict sites team in the planning department and there are staff members who deal with that. That is their job.

Deputy Thomas Gould

How many are in the derelict sites team? If the figure is not available offhand I can come back.

Mr. Robert Burns

It is not within my department but I think it is one or two people.

Deputy Thomas Gould

Are they dealing directly full-time with dereliction and not being pulled into other things in planning, for example? What we have seen over the years is derelict and vacant sites officers doing two and three jobs.

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

I think it is proportionate based on the number of units we have.

Mr. Robert Burns

They are separate and they are dealing with their own responsibilities but there is another important consideration, which is that they do not act as islands either. They need to link up closely with one another and I will add that a new resource coming in to local authorities is the town regeneration officer who will also be critical to that mix. Those three officers working together are probably going to focus on town centre regeneration and vacancy more generally.

Mr. Colm Ward

I think every local authority has a slightly different problem. In south Dublin we have a full-time vacant homes officer positioned within housing who is supplemented by ten local housing officers who will do investigations on the ground as well and will report back to those vacant housing officers. However, those on the ground inspectors will have other duties as well. There are other supplementary administrative staff to support the role there too. In our public realm team, there is a derelict sites enforcement unit, and derelict sites is one of their responsibilities along with some other enforcement duties.

Deputy Thomas Gould

Neither local authority has a dedicated person dealing directly with dereliction. Okay. Housing maintenance was also touched on earlier. Both local authorities have indicated that their housing stock is probably newer than some. I represent Cork North-Central, which is located within Cork City Council's area. A lot of the stock there could be 70, 80 or 100 years old. The funding of housing maintenance is a huge issue. I believe there should be more money coming from central sources, with the return of the block grant the way it used to be before the financial crash. How are the local authorities represented here dealing with housing maintenance? Are there major lists? We have long lists in Cork. Do the councils have short or medium lists or is it an issue for them?

Mr. Daniel McLoughlin

We do not have houses that are 100 years old. About a decade ago, we started putting aside a substantial amount of money for a planned maintenance programme. About five years ago, as we gained on the experience of that, we put in place a dedicated €10 million fund for a planned maintenance programme. That is what is generally referred to locally as windows and doors. That is supplemented by the national retrofit programme. That is boxed off as a planned maintenance piece. Mr. Ward can take the Deputy through our reactive maintenance. I think our oldest housing is 30 to 50 years old.

Mr. Colm Ward

Obviously when we see units coming back into stock as casual vacancies, they are going to require more work to bring them back up to standard because they have been occupied for 30 or 40-year tenancies. However, our profile is relatively young and our maintenance cost base is reflected by that. Our rental income is assigned to address that.

Mr. Robert Burns

Fingal has a similar housing profile. As you move out from the city, the housing stock is younger. We have a three-year capital programme in place. We are investing about €30 million over those three years on what we call asset management, so that is everything to do with energy retrofits, windows and doors, boiler maintenance and replacement, painting and public realm or public space works.

Deputy Thomas Gould

South Dublin County Council has a designated fund in place for planned maintenance. Does Fingal have the same?

Mr. Robert Burns

Yes. However, as there is a contribution from Government in there too, we are getting funds coming through for the energy retrofit programmes but we are adding our own funds as well.

Deputy Thomas Gould

I have another question for both councils. The Government has set targets for delivery of social, affordable and cost rental housing. Have these targets been met over the last few years?

Mr. Robert Burns

Yes.

Deputy Thomas Gould

Our argument here is that those targets are too low. What we are seeing are local authorities where all targets are hit every year but the numbers of people on housing lists are going up. One of the arguments that I put forward is that housing delivery must match, if not exceed, the number of people coming on the list. Approximately how many new applicants do the witnesses expect to come on the list each year?

Mr. Robert Burns

It varies year by year and even month by month. I can give an indication of what we will allocate per year. We allocate 800 to 900 units to families or individuals per year.

Deputy Thomas Gould

Is the number of people coming on to the housing list expected to be over that?

Mr. Robert Burns

It is likely that it is. Even in the figures for the housing list versus the delivery, there clearly is a probable gap. However, the housing need is met by other policy instruments like HAP. Generally that is what we are hitting but our stock is increasing. We have 5,500 but we will be adding stock each year. We will have 360 in additional stock this year, so we have the relettings that go on in terms of allocations but also new stock.

Deputy Thomas Gould

I thank the witnesses and I appreciate their answers. I thank the Chair for being lenient.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Emer Higgins)

I will not be lenient because the next slot is my own. I will watch it and if I have extra time, Senator Cummins can use it to finish his questions. I want to ask a similar question to that asked by Deputy Gould around previous targets. Given the context we all know in terms of cost inflation, supply chain issues, and tender hesitancy as has been noted, will both councils meet their 2022 targets?

Mr. Daniel McLoughlin

We will probably be 90% or thereabouts. As alluded to by Deputy Lahart, we unfortunately had to terminate one contractor who was working on three sites. We did it in one case and an AHB did it in the other two cases. We have had to determine the contract. That is a loss to our targets of approximately 60 units. Mr. Ward and his team are working hard to recover them and different options. To the extent that we do or do not will be reflected in whether this is 90%, 92% or whatever.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Emer Higgins)

If not, does Mr. McLoughlin expect to hit them next year and therefore exceed next year's targets?

Mr. Daniel McLoughlin

At this remove, next year looks good.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Emer Higgins)

Okay, super. And what is the position in Fingal?

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

Yes, we will meet our target this year and hopefully next year as well.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Emer Higgins)

Fantastic. I will ask Fingal about its housing delivery action plan because I concentrated on south Dublin earlier. Reference is made to 15,000 units with planning permission that are undeveloped, 3,000 of which are due to be under construction this year, leaving about 12,000. Ms Farrelly may not have the details to hand but does she know the ratio of apartments to homes in respect of the undeveloped units? How is the council seeking to unlock these? Has there been any progress on engagement with developers? Will the first home shared equity scheme help to de-risk the building of any of those homes?

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

Of the permitted developments, as 84% are apartments and the rest is housing, the figure in Fingal are not dissimilar figures. All of the various initiatives will help, so it is a matter of drawing all of them in, whether at an individual purchaser level or in terms of our own involvement in the housing market. I hope that answers the question.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Emer Higgins)

I thank Ms Farrelly. The Land Development Agency intends to deliver approximately 1,000 homes in Fingal. Can she talk me through how that will work? Is that the agency's land bank or is it a joint project? What are the practicalities of that project?

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

There are two sites that will be activated in Fingal, one in Balbriggan and the other in Skerries. They are on lands that were acquired for housing by the council about 15 years ago. The land was subsequently transferred to the Housing Agency through the funding of land initiative at around the time of the economic downturn.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Emer Higgins)

To pick up on something about bats that South Dublin County Council's chief executive spoke about earlier, I think bats are breaking a lot of people's hearts in the county at the moment. I know the Chairman raised an interesting concept around it. The point Mr. McLoughlin outlined about Clonburris and having to go back again to the drawing board for more assessments sounds frustrating and an unnecessary blockage in terms of turning that land bank into homes. It is a very delicate balance between the ecological and the biodiversity lens that we absolutely have to have when it comes to delivering homes. However, we do not want that to unnecessarily delay the likes of sports fields or housing.

Mr. Daniel McLoughlin

We all understand that as we prepare county development plans, the overall plan is subject to environmental impact assessment, EIA. Then every step of the way, for every project within that in the five or six years, another EIA is required. There is a need for a responsible discussion on what do we need to provide the necessary assurance around protection and conservation while not getting in the way of what we are trying to do. Having to repeat EIAs every couple of years is probably a little over the top in that regard. Now, some people would scream loudly at even the suggestion of that but I think there is a value in having a discussion around it.

Senator John Cummins

I will focus on leasing, to which there is some ideological opposition. In my book, I have always said that any unit that can be secured for an individual or a family that gives them secure accommodation for a period of 20 or 25 years is far preferable to someone being in an unsecure HAP property. I note from the figures that South Dublin County Council delivered 353 leased units between 2017 and 2021, Fingal delivered 388 between 2019 and 2021. The councils have 290 units and 354 units, respectively, for delivery between now and 2025, albeit that the tap has already been turned off in respect of the councils' ability to be able to enter into new leasing arrangements. The committee will be compiling a report in this regard with a number of recommendations. In a question I have asked of other local authorities, do the witnesses believe that a reintroduction of that leasing scheme would be a preferential option in getting more properties into their stock during the delivery period up to the end of 2025 and beyond? Perhaps Ms Farrelly could answer first.

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

I think it is important to have every delivery mechanism available to us. As it is a good scheme for early delivery and for meeting the costs associated with higher density schemes, yes absolutely, I think it should continue.

Senator John Cummins

Is higher density delivery a key point as well here? A lot of those schemes in Dublin are not being activated at the moment. Does Ms Farrelly believe that a leasing scheme could unlock more of that?

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

Yes, I think it is a good measure for activating sites.

Senator John Cummins

What is Mr. Ward's view?

Mr. Colm Ward

We are in a similar position. We worked to the ceiling we were given in terms of the leasing target and could certainly have exceeded that because there are permissions that probably could have been utilised for leasing as well.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

I apologise for not being here for all of the presentations but I did get a chance to read some of the submissions. With the indulgence of the Chair, I am going to concentrate on my own constituency in term of the questions. The team from South Dublin County Council can take a break for a few minutes. In relation to leasing, of which there is some in Balbriggan, how much will the council pay over the lifetime of the 25-year lease?

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

We will have to do our sums and come back to Deputy O'Reilly.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

The council must have a ballpark figure. If it is a good scheme and is good value for money, Ms Farrelly must have an idea of how much it costs.

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

I am not going to speculate but I will come back to the Deputy while she speaks.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

How many people who are on a notice to quit are currently engaging with Fingal and how many of them are overholding?

Mr. Robert Burns

At present, 180 families are on a notice to quit and overholding.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

So every person with whom the council is engaging on a notice to quit is also overholding?

Mr. Robert Burns

We have 180 families overholding on a notice to quit.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

Yes, but how many are on a notice to quit? I mean the 180 overholding does not surprise me but I seek the other number.

Mr. Robert Burns

I do not have that separate figure to hand.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

I ask Mr. Burns to get that figure and send it on to me.

How many whole-time equivalents are working in the vacant homes unit full time?

Mr. Robert Burns

At present, we have a full-time vacant homes officer. That position has been in place since April. We have two staff members who are in that unit at the moment but we are also looking at the various schemes. There is an administrative requirement coming through, particularly in Croí Cónaithe in towns, and we are trying to see what that demand will be. There is a facility within that to support additional staff.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

That was the purpose of my question, to clarify that those staff will come on stream.

Mr. Robert Burns

We are trying to see what that demand and then will try and peg the resources to that.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

Excellent. Does Mr. Burns know how many tenant in situ purchases the council is currently progressing and how many landlords have been approached? This is something that has become the stuff of rumours and I would like to get this nailed. When we talk to the Minister, he will say that money is not an object when it comes to the tenant in situ scheme, that it is being progressed and that is good. Anecdotally, however, I have been told that if a person is above a certain point on the list, the tenant in situ scheme is not considered. I do not suggest this is the case and Mr. Burns should correct it formally if he can. In the case of a person being in 500th place or above on the list, while I understand there are criteria for the scheme, will all such cases be considered and will all landlords be approached?

Mr. Robert Burns

We are trying to keep a flexible approach to that even if a person is at a certain point on the list. If, for example, the family size is very large and they do not have alternative options, then that becomes a serious consideration. Those situations do arise. The fact that we do not have a hard and fast rule allows us to have the flexibility. That is simply the situation. There is not actually a hard rule that says above or below a certain point on the list we do not consider. We consider what comes in front of us. There will always be a point where you just cannot consider every single one. We treat each one on a case-by-case basis, looking at the circumstances around it and if those expressions of interest come to our intention, we consider them fully.

We are looking at it from an acquisitions and allocations point of view. Our issue is not the ability to acquire but it is the circumstances around what we can potentially absorb. If this is done at scale and a significant number of houses are acquired, that can impact the private sale market, which is something for us to consider. There are also practical considerations around people who are on the housing list. Quite rightly, they may have concerns that others are coming through that route and leapfrogging them. As the Deputy will appreciate, we have a lot of things to consider. We are also trying to ensure that a bad a situation does not become worse. We are dealing with a homeless situation which can be more difficult to remedy at the moment. There are many factors to consider.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

How many landlords has Fingal County Council approached? How many tenant in situ purchases are being progressed currently?

Mr. Robert Burns

I will need to come back to the Deputy on the figures. I think we have had five to six a week recently. That is something we would be looking at. All of the cases coming forward are being considered. We have not made a decision on quite a number of them at this point. It is still a work in progress. That announcement is quite recent and we are seeing more and more of those filtering in. I explained earlier that it is not just requests coming from the landlord formally. If we get that information through some other means, maybe the tenant-----

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

The county council can approach the landlord.

Mr. Robert Burns

We will consider that as well.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

I would appreciate it if Mr. Burns could get those figures. On above-the-shop living, has Fingal County Council done any research into what is available? Does it have any idea of what the above-the-shop vacancy level is within Fingal?

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

Mr. Burns mentioned the town centre regeneration officer. That is a key role. That person looks at what opportunities there are within our towns and villages. It is limited in the towns the Deputy would be familiar with but any opportunity is worth exploring. Regarding Balbriggan and our involvement in the town centre and our acquisition of properties, I would like to see those units transformed into living units, perhaps with some commercial activity on the ground floor.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

Has Fingal County Council done any specific research on it?

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

Not yet, no.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

Does it intend to?

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

That is exactly what the Town Centre First officer will do.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

What is the current turnaround time for voids or casual lets, or whatever one wants to call them? It is a bit like asking how long is a piece of string. I understand they are all different, but there must be an average figure. Is Fingal County Council concerned about the impact of construction inflation on the potential to turn around at the same speed this year and in future years?

Mr. Robert Burns

Our figures last year showed that it was around 39 weeks. It is a figure we are not that happy with. We are looking to improve it. Earlier this year, we got it down to around 32 weeks. We hope to improve that further. As everyone knows, vacancies and turnarounds are complex, but ultimately the number is the number. We have a good system in place in terms of our maintenance system. We have term and maintenance contracts in place that allow us to call off at short notice. Those rates are already fixed through an earlier overarching master contract. We are not as concerned in that area, but there are lead-in time issues regarding parts and equipment and subcontractor costs will be going up. We are subject to inflation to a degree but not as much as would be the case for newer construction.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

Sorry Acting Chair, that figure there-----

Acting Chairman (Deputy Emer Higgins)

We are out of time Deputy. Is that something that can be provided quickly? No, it cannot be provided.

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

In a quick kind of assessment, depending on time, we are saying about 300,000. The cost benefit we would undertake relates to availability of the unit quickly and the cost of not having a unit where there is a huge demand.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Emer Higgins)

I call Deputy Lahart.

Deputy John Lahart

Can South Dublin County Council quantify the loss or the pausing or suspension temporarily of social housing build as a result of judicial reviews, JRs, in south County Dublin? Is it able to quantify the output loss?

Mr. Daniel McLoughlin

One pilot scheme is under JR at the moment. We have had a number of JRs across different things, but one on housing. I am not sure how long. It is in the Deputy's area. It is under way. In any JR, I am sure 12 months will be lost. It is a few hundred homes.

Deputy John Lahart

On rightsizing, one of the first things the Government did was that the Taoiseach gave many resources to the Office of the Attorney General to look at our planning codes. Is there anything Mr. McLoughlin would like to see on that? He said earlier that county councils do not have the power to determine what a builder might do with the different aspects of a development. The Government gives them the power to allocate 10% or 20% for social and affordable housing. On rightsizing, what can we, as legislators, do when developments are granted permissions, particularly in the suburbs where there is an existing mature population who have empty-nester homes with two or three bedrooms and who will not exercise - why would they - the right to sell and rent, but would exercise the right to sell and trade down? What can legislators do?

Mr. Daniel McLoughlin

I hope my answer is not too constrained, but my understanding is that ministerially and governmentally, one is confined to enshrining something by way of guidelines rather than legal provision. One cannot stipulate the development of housing for a particular category or profile of person. Whether it would be the development planning guidelines or the residential density guidelines, that would be the area to look at for assessment. When we looked at it, we felt as a local authority that the furthest we could go was to put in place a proactive policy within our development plan encouraging that type of scenario. Getting your arms around someone and forcing them to do it is an entirely different proposition, as the Deputy knows.

Deputy John Lahart

Would South Dublin County Council like to see in that legislative piece? Would it like to see its local authority----

Mr. Daniel McLoughlin

"Rightsizing" is the latest word. We used to call it downsizing, which became emotive. Every time a government mentioned it, it was as if we were suddenly forcing people out of their homes. It is really tricky. It must involve enabling an understanding and bringing people on the journey. We had a conversion earlier about why we are developing little clusters where people can look out the window and see them, so they do not feel threatened by the move. We have an officer working full-time with the age-friendly community to say what is in play, that they are just having a chat and that they are not forcing people to do anything but that they should think about. The officer will tell them what schemes are going to come up and that they are there if people want them and they will give them their number. That is where we are at. It is emotive. There is a delicate balance between having the conversation and being on the airwaves the next day defending the conversation because you are forcing people out of their homes. Nobody wants that.

Deputy John Lahart

That is funny because all I encountered was an appetite for it.

Mr. Daniel McLoughlin

I do not disagree with the Deputy. In casual conversation, there is an appetite about it. Once it starts becoming the conversation around a political or policy narrative, it flips into a threat. It is difficult.

Deputy John Lahart

This is a very wide question. I did a survey across the constituency two weeks ago about schools trying to attract pupils. We are aware in Dublin South-West, right across the constituency, that there are key workers, including not just gardaí, nurses and teachers, but a lot of professions, for whom we cannot provide affordable accommodation exclusively. On cost-rental measures, how is that advancing in south County Dublin and when can we expect output from that?

Mr. Daniel McLoughlin

I spoke about our scheme at Belgard earlier. It will answer many questions for us. We consider it to be a good location and site. It is uncomplicated. Unfortunately we are bringing it to tender at a difficult time. The tenders have been received and are currently being assessed. We will have an outcome to bring to council in November if there are any choices, based on the cost and the 40 year planned maintenance cycle which was recently increased by the Minister in the affordable housing fund. There will be an element of crunching the numbers and we hope to finish that in the next two weeks so that we have something to bring to the corporate policy group, CPG, and to council in November.

Deputy John Lahart

The witnesses spoke about the community-driven focus on rightsizing or whatever we call it. Could they flesh it out? I would like to know more about that. What often happens is that the first time a community gets wind of a development is when it appears as a planning application or proposal. How do we facilitate early conversations that do not spook the horses but get people into an open conversation to consider a piece of land in the county that may lie idle - may be completely unused even as amenity space - on which a development incorporating rightsizing could be built along with the amenities associated with modern developments.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Emer Higgins)

The Deputy has come to the end of his time so-----

Deputy John Lahart

What would be the maximum that the council would hope to get out of a rightsizing scheme?

Mr. Colm Ward

There are many potential sites in the county, but none is in the council's ownership. It is up to the communities to come forward. We are at the start of a journey where they will see the benefits of rightsizing in the schemes that we are delivering. That will animate the conversation about communities and people with an appetite for rightsizing. We are open to up to 50% of community-led developments being available for private rightsizing.

Deputy John Lahart

Can Mr. Ward explain that 50% in English for ordinary-----

Acting Chairman (Deputy Emer Higgins)

He cannot do so now as it is Senator Boyhan's time.

Deputy John Lahart

It is very important, Chair.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Emer Higgins)

I apologise

Deputy John Lahart

I thank the Chair for her flexibility.

Senator Victor Boyhan

I have only one question to ask but before I do, I thank both local authorities. It is great to meet people. We engage in many different mechanisms and ways but it is nice to see them here. The witnesses are clearly on top of their brief. We understand and appreciate that there are many challenges. It is important to have this engagement with the committee.

I will turn the focus to Traveller accommodation. It is a key aspect of Housing for All. There are key Government objectives under the programme for Government. The councils also have their own local authority Traveller accommodation programmes. Can the councils both touch on how those programmes are going? Before they do, I will ask Mr. McLoughlin to speak about the small complex of seven residential units on Fonthill Road. How is that progressing? Has it gone through Part 8? When is that happening? What is the timeline for it? He might then touch on SDCC's programme which covers 2019-2024. How is that going? Is the council on target? The committee would like to hear whether there are impediments to delivering the council's programme to 2024.

Mr. Colm Ward

Planning was approved for Fonthill in June. A few recommendations were made in the planning process that the elected members wanted us to follow up on, including a road safety audit and a land swap consideration that has just been completed. We hope we will then be able to start construction on that development.

Senator Victor Boyhan

Will that be within the next two or three months?

Mr. Colm Ward

Absolutely. That is the intention.

Senator Victor Boyhan

Great

Mr. Colm Ward

In respect of the broader Traveller accommodation programme, provision has been made in Adamstown SDZ for four different Traveller accommodation developments of six units each. The first of those is likely to be completed, if not by the end of this year, early next year. Agreement is in place for the locations of the other sites. Beyond that, two specific schemes form a core part of our Traveller accommodation programme. One is at Oldcastle Park in Clondalkin. We engaged in a Traveller-led consultation process there to understand the preferences of the families and we are finalising the design to bring back to the local members. Similarly in Rathfarnham, in Deputy Lahart's constituency, a site in Owendoher Haven in Ballyboden is being redeveloped in respect of which we have also had Traveller engagement to try to come up with the right design for those families. Those developments are the bedrock of our Traveller accommodation programme. The rest envisages casual vacancies in standard social housing and in existing Traveller accommodation and there has been a healthy take-up of both of those options.

Senator Victor Boyhan

Will the SDCC draw down all of its central government funding for Traveller accommodation this year?

Mr. Colm Ward

We will draw down a substantial part of it and if the six houses I mentioned in Adamstown are completed before year-end we will exceed our allocation.

Senator Victor Boyhan

What is the allocation?

Mr. Colm Ward

We signalled about €2.8 million to the Department.

Senator Victor Boyhan

All of that funding will possibly be drawn down this year.

Mr. Colm Ward

Yes, if that scheme is completed.

Senator Victor Boyhan

That is if those six units come on stream.

Mr. Colm Ward

It is those six units and additional works to a range of existing sites through relets and so on.

Senator Victor Boyhan

That is great. I thank Mr. Ward. What is the situation in Fingal?

Mr. Robert Burns

Our Traveller accommodation programme runs for a similar timeframe. We are progressing well. There are similar challenges in Traveller accommodation as in standard accommodation, if we can call it that. Procuring contractors, inflation and all of those things impact on delivering Traveller accommodation. Taking account of that, we focused on refurbishment projects this year because we were able to work off our maintenance frameworks and carry out works to upgrade halting sites and bring in welfare units to supplement the existing facilities. Similar to what Mr. Ward said about the engagement, a lot of engagement goes on. A lot of engagement goes on with communities generally, but we engage quite a bit with existing Traveller communities to make sure what we are providing is what they need and it an iterative process. There is a lot of over and back until we get to the point where we can agree. Sometimes that takes a little longer than we would like but we get to a better solution in the end. We are quite happy with the programme. It is under review at the moment. We completed a seven unit development in Stockhole Lane in late 2021 as well. That is new stock that is in place.

Senator Victor Boyhan

What is the council's allocation for this year?

Mr. Robert Burns

Our allocation is often what we say we might spend at a certain time. We indicate throughout the year how much we will spend. It is approximately €2 million but I can revert to the Senator to confirm that.

Senator Victor Boyhan

Will it all be drawn down?

Mr. Robert Burns

We are expecting to draw down and spend that amount.

Senator Victor Boyhan

I ask that question in the context of a lot of media coverage over the past few months about a list of local authorities we were told were not drawing down their funding. There is a suggestion that the political will is missing or there is some other obstacle. I simply do not know. Each local authority has its own set-up, sets of circumstances and problems. It is important that we know that if an authority requests certain funding to deliver a Traveller accommodation programme that it will draw it down or indicate to the Department that it will not, somewhat earlier.

How many people are on the council's list seeking Traveller accommodation as of today?

Mr. Robert Burns

We have 543 Traveller families residing in Fingal.

Senator Victor Boyhan

How many are looking for accommodation?

Mr. Robert Burns

I will come back to the Senator with a specific figure on that.

Senator Victor Boyhan

It would be interesting to get some figures from SDCC as well on the drawdown of funding, the allocations for the past year or two, how they were drawn down, how many people are currently in Traveller accommodation and how many are on the list looking for Traveller accommodation. I would like to get a handle on that. At another opportunity, the witnesses might outline what the impediments to delivering Traveller accommodation programme are. I am not asking them to answer that now. Perhaps they might come back to the committee on it at some stage.

I thank them for their time.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

I will come back to the question I asked earlier about people on the housing lists who have received a notice to quit because the owner is selling. Have the witnesses advised their housing officers to ask the applicant if the landlord will sell to the local authority? Is that something they have instructed their housing officers to do so far and if not, is it something they will instruct their housing officers to do?

I appreciate it is a long journey and that many factors go into the ultimate decision and that there are criteria that have to be met.

On the issue of Traveller accommodation for Fingal, I am familiar with the Fingal boundary towards Ashtown and Dublin central and so on. At the site on the Ratoath Road there is a really bad stretch of road from Reilly's Bridge towards Cappagh Hospital. It is a dangerous road for anybody to live on. Entering on to it is not great and the Traveller halting site there does not have a good safe entrance onto that road. It is very dangerous and unsightly. Could Fingal County Council come back to me with a report on its plans for that? I do not need a specific answer today.

As regards the housing lists, both witnesses have indicated an average time historically of around six to seven years from when somebody applies to the local authority for housing to actually being housed. I assume, but I would like witnesses to confirm, that in that interim period of six to seven years all applicants receive a housing assistance payment and are being accommodated in private rented accommodation. It is only if the private rental accommodation is being sold and they received a notice to quit that they potentially face homelessness. I would come back to the value for money question between a family being put into emergency homeless accommodation at a cost of €70,000 or €80,000 per year versus long-term leasing solutions. My experience in the city of long-term leasing are brand new, A energy-rated apartments and homes that have been built to the highest standards and are often furnished. They are on a long-term lease of somewhere between 15 and 25 years, which if we take the cost of €300,000 works out at about €12,000 per year. Is that a fair description of what is happening in Fingal and south County Dublin and if their local authorities use long-term leasing? If that is the case are they really comfortable with eliminating long-term leasing over the next five to six years?

My final question is how their local authorities are being impacted by the arrival of Ukrainians and international protection refugees? If South Dublin County Council could answer first, and then Fingal County Council.

Mr. Daniel McLoughlin

Mr. Burns has some of the detail on how we view leasing and what we have been involved in. I think Senator Fitzpatrick's cost comparison between someone being in emergency accommodation for 25 years, and I hope that would not happen, and 25 year lease as a value for money proposition is clearly a result of-----

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

Even if it was for five years.

Mr. Daniel McLoughlin

Where the conversation broke down was understanding, from the State's perspective, the value for money around giving private funding, a 5% or 6% return on our investment, as to whether or not that money could have been available through the National Treasury Management Agency, NTMA, or whatever. That was one part of the discussion and the other part was whether we should we have something at the end of it. To be perfectly frank I would be in that stable. I would be comfortable with the State paying-----

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

Mr. McLoughlin would defend-----

Mr. Daniel McLoughlin

-----a higher premium on the understanding that it will realise an asset at the end.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

Yes.

Mr. Daniel McLoughlin

On the issue of Ukrainian refugees, and Mr. Ward can answer specific questions, Citywest is on our patch and the story, and it has been in the national media, is that they have been under immense pressure out there. We work with South Dublin Partnership and have funded some posts to work directly with the Ukrainian community on-site. We work with the South Dublin Volunteer Centre which has been out there from the very beginning and has been doing incredible work. Some of it can be very emotionally trying for volunteers looking on while people have to hold over for periods of time. Everyone is mindful of the challenge but also of the need to transition from an emergency into a more long-term integrated solution for people. The clustering of people at Citywest or in hotels or whatever, while it sounds ridiculous to say it, has a value initially in terms of collective supports such as Department of Social Protection supports, education supports and health supports in the one place, and also early intervention in English language learning. However, it cannot be like this in terms of hotels-----

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

It perpetuates a trauma.

Mr. Daniel McLoughlin

Correct. We need to look at a broader more sustainable solution and a disaggregation of that clustering. What that looks like is obviously under consideration by the Government. I read today's headlines and have seen some of the early thoughts on that. That is to be welcomed. We do suffer from understanding what the figures will look like in the future because in the early days it was identified with certain airports and there was a certain trajectory. It is now more dissipated across Europe and the points of origin and entry are more dispersed and it is harder to predict. Yes, the work done so far has been fantastic but it is a continuing challenge.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

Go raibh maith agat Mr. McLoughlin.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Emer Higgins)

I thank Mr. McLoughlin and the teams for all they are doing in Citywest because it is incredible work. We have about three minutes if Senator Cummins would like to take the last slot.

Senator John Cummins

I have a question on turnaround times. Fingal mentioned around 32 weeks for re-letting and subsequently mentioned a framework that was in place for maintenance. Is it not the case that the frameworks have reduced letting times because they do not have to go out for tender for each individual project? Tied to that I assume South Dublin County Council is doing that because it has a significantly lower turnaround time on its re-letting of properties?

Mr. Robert Burns

On turnaround time it is important to set out what that comprises. It is the time that it takes to repair or do the works and also the time it takes to allocate the property and get it back into stock. It is also the time from when the keys are handed in and the house is cleaned up and any legal issues or overholding are dealt with. We also have properties that are in legal limbo so we try to deal with that.

The maintenance frameworks definitely help us because if one looks at it we are trying to pick off the different elements so we really focus on the maintenance. The contracts are in place and we have very robust processes in terms of inspecting and doing the works and getting it back in. Some delays relate to reconnecting to utilities and some are outside our control. However, there is a piece of work we are doing about allocations and making sure that we can re-let in as short a time as possible.

The other important thing to remember is that the reason this timeframe is so long it due to a much wider issue. It is to do with probably historical maintenance of the housing stock across Ireland generally. We have not had the planned proactive maintenance approach and it is really positive that maybe we will going forward. Fingal is part of another pilot project with the housing delivery co-ordination office looking at a planned maintenance project for all of the housing stock. If we make that investment year on year, when houses fall vacant we should not have as much work to do and the turnaround time will be much shorter. That is the experience of the AHBs and of a lot of the housing bodies in Northern Ireland and the UK.

Senator John Cummins

I am interested in south Dublin whose turnaround is 24 weeks as I understand.

Mr. Colm Ward

We are at about 26 or 27 weeks but that is not the optimal time-----

Senator John Cummins

It has gone up.

Mr. Colm Ward

-----we are working to a standard that should be much better than that and our optimal time is around 20 weeks which is what we aim to get back to. We have frameworks in place. There have been challenges with costs of construction in that we were asked to go and retender those but we will expand the number of contractors we have on call and reduce the areas to smaller geographical areas to maximise what the contractors can do for us. There are significant challenges with contractor capacity.

Senator John Cummins

Understood. I thank Mr. Ward.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Emer Higgins)

That is great. I would like to thank each of our witnesses for their participation in a really constructive meeting. I wish to convey on behalf of this committee our thanks to all of their staff and teams in both Fingal County Council and South Dublin County Councils and indeed to our own team in our Joint Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage.

This meeting is adjourned until 11 a.m on Tuesday, 8 November.

The joint committee adjourned at 5.59 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 8 November 2022.