I welcome everyone to the meeting. Deputy Flaherty wished to raise a matter.
Proposed Changes to River Shannon, Grand and Royal Canals and River Barrow Navigation By-laws: Discussion
I am conscious we have a short timeframe for a very important issue. I propose, therefore, that we take the opening statements as read, which will give us more time to ask questions.
Is that agreed? Agreed.
I welcome from Waterways Ireland, Mr. Éanna Rowe, operations controller, and Mr. Patrick Harkin, head of the inspectorate; from the Irish Residential Boat Owners Association, Mr. Liam Finnegan and Mr. Jerry Gleeson; and from the Royal Canal Amenity Group, Mr. Derek Whelan, director, and Mr. Niall Galway, secretary. I thank them for their attendance.
I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the place where Parliament has chosen to sit, namely, Leinster House, to participate in public meetings. For those witnesses attending in the committee room, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their contributions to today's meeting. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. Both members and witnesses are expected not to abuse the privilege they enjoy. It is my duty as Chair to ensure this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction. Members and witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses, or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.
I will try to keep my questions short. The proposed by-laws have engendered an awful lot of confusion given that the consultation for by-laws for the canals are run in tandem with the consultation for by-laws for the River Shannon, but there is an intrinsic difference. Waterways Ireland owns the canals but does not own the River Shannon. There is some suspicion that running the two consultations together has been an attempt to confuse things. What would the witnesses from Waterways Ireland say to that?
Mr. Éanna Rowe
When it comes to the two sets of by-laws, what we in Waterways Ireland are trying to achieve is a synergy and alignment between the two sets. Our decision, in regard to both the Shannon navigation by-laws and the canal by-laws, which cover not only the Shannon but also the Shannon-Erne waterway and the Ulster canal in the Shannon navigation and the two canals-----
Why were the two run together? Was it deliberate to create confusion?
Mr. Éanna Rowe
Absolutely not. Waterways Ireland is a public body undertaking a 108-day open and transparent public consultation process and we are nearing the end of it. We have had seven public information evenings and will have another one this evening in Mullingar. We have run webinars for more than 1,300 elected members, from councillors to Senators and Deputies. We have nothing to hide. We have been very open in what we are trying to do and, as I said, we are trying to bring alignment between two sets of individual by-laws.
I accept Mr. Rowe's bona fides in that regard. Having said that, there is a concern, which has been articulated to us, that there was a lack of consultation with key stakeholders before the consultation was initiated, such as local chambers and commercial boat owners. Many of these people were unaware of this consultation. Local search and rescue clubs play a huge role in our community but they were not invited to take part at the outset of the consultation period, yet the by-laws will require them to seek permission before they initiate a search and rescue operation, which seems draconian.
Mr. Éanna Rowe
Once again, we are undertaking a 108-day open and transparent public consultation process. We consulted a number of stakeholders, including the Heritage Boat Association, the Inland Waterways Association and all its branches on the Shannon and the canals, the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, the Royal Canal Amenity Group, the Irish Boat Rental Association and the Shannon Archaeological and Historical Association, and we also had the webinar with elected members.
Again, we had a pre-consultation. Prior to the 108 days of open, transparent public consultation, we engaged with the stakeholders the Deputy mentioned, such as the cruise hire sector and all the representative bodies involved in boating on our navigable waterways.
Much of that is in your opening statement.
I am from Longford and live on the banks of the River Shannon. There is a concern locally that this is a land grab. Waterways Ireland owns the canals but it does not own the River Shannon. I refer to the KPMG report which set out that efforts should be made to monetise the River Shannon. There is a concern that is what is the intended consequence of this. These proposed by-laws come at a time when Waterways Ireland does not have a board of directors or a customer charter and there is no dispute resolution system other than the courts. In all likelihood, were these by-laws to be implemented, it would be a quagmire. Someone would take a challenge to the courts. It would drag on for years and never be implemented. Has Waterways Ireland fully thought through the ramifications of its plans?
Mr. Éanna Rowe
We have, definitely.
The issue of the board of directors is a matter for the North-South Ministerial Council. We are a North-South body, established under the British-Irish Agreement Act. Some of the six bodies have boards and others do not. That is a matter for that body. We have robust procedures around how we manage and maintain our waterways. Our current by-laws are more than 30 years old and-----
I know. I am conscious of time. That is all in the opening statement. I thank Mr. Rowe.
A representative of the Shannon Lakes and Rivers Group, Mr. Liam Finnegan, is present as part of the Irish Residential Boat Owners Association. I heard a radio interview he gave today. He is vocal about this and feels there has been a lack of consultation with relevant parties.
Mr. Liam Finnegan
Yes, there was a lack of consultation with the people on the ground, the real people of Ireland. Some 9,000 boats are registered on the system. One boating organisation was in negotiations with Waterways Ireland, but fewer than 1,000 boats are involved in it. The people on the ground it will affect, including the local businesses, chambers and boat owners, were not contacted. Public consultations-----
I am going to cut speakers' time to six minutes each
I have two key questions. Waterways Ireland would say that it has to implement blanket charges. It references a model from the UK. Has Mr. Finnegan any experience of that?
I apologise Deputy Flaherty. The Sinn Féin slot is next.
I will keep to my time. I thank the witnesses for coming and taking the time to make the written submissions, especially in such a short period.
I appreciate that the existing by-laws are old and must be changed and updated. I understand from talking to some people that many aspects of the by-laws are less controversial than others. I will make a few comments about the public consultation and then ask a few questions of both groups.
We spend a lot of time in this committee talking about consultations for planning, development plans, the national planning framework and so on. One hundred and eight days is a short period for a consultation. It is three and a half months. It also took place during the summer. For those who work providing tourism services, for example, along the River Shannon and on the canals, it is peak season. They are busy so getting the time to be able to make submissions is genuinely challenging. Many people were on holidays and then they had the responsibility of getting children back to school. It is a short period, irrespective of what one thinks of the substantive issues. Given that the existing by-laws are 30 years old and that it is important we get this right in the interests of the proper management of the Shannon and canals and of supporting the people who are working and enjoying those important public amenities, is Waterways Ireland open not only to a short extension but some consideration of elongating and adding to the public consultation so that all those organisations and individuals who do not feel that what has been provided to date is adequate could get properly involved? Is that something it would be open to considering, if, for example, on consideration of the evidence, this committee were to ask it to do so?
Mr. Éanna Rowe
The whole idea of the public consultation is that we are open to all and any submissions. Of course we would be open to that. We want to get these by-laws right. We have been here before and we failed. They are more than 30 years old and are no longer fit-for-purpose. It is in all our interests that we get the by-laws right.
On the short period, we took a conscious decision about the consultation. Under the Act, we are required to do 30 days, which is far too short. We extended it to 108 days. We are also mindful of the inability thus far of Waterways Ireland to bring into effect the provisions of the Maritime Safety Act 2005, which is very important, and of the environmental considerations, especially around water quality and so forth. We are anxious to have our by-laws adopted and implemented, but we equally want to get them right because they are no longer fit for purpose.
I do not dispute any of that. I thank Mr. Rowe. In that context, I presume that taking a few more months to get it right and to reach the maximum degree of consensus would not cause a great deal of difficulty as regards the issues Waterways Ireland is trying to address.
Mr. Éanna Rowe
They are more than 30 years old so what is a couple of more months?
Exactly. I presume that is a "Yes".
Mr. Éanna Rowe
Yes.
We spent a lot of time recently on the legislation relating to marine protected areas, the Maritime Area Planning Act. How the consultation is done is also important. While simply opening a deadline, inviting people to make submissions and holding some public hearings might seem to the organisation running it to be open consultation, organisations often tell us - not only in relation to this issue - that they need something a little more hands-on and proactive. For example, when the National Transport Authority was holding its consultation on BusConnects, it went to supermarkets and shopping centres and reached out in a much more proactive way. That is dependent on resources, but I presume, in addition to being open to giving more time to this, Waterways Ireland might be willing to look at other ways of engaging so that all those who need to have their voices heard are properly engaged with. Would Waterways Ireland be willing to consider that?
Mr. Éanna Rowe
As I outlined in my statement, we targeted the public consultation across three main media. The first element was an online campaign and across our social media platforms. The second element was the public information evenings which were well attended, particularly along the Shannon. We are holding another one this evening to try to reach out to as many people as possible who want to have their say on the by-laws. The third element was that we provided copies of the by-laws in every public library along the Shannon, the Shannon-Erne Waterway, the Ulster Canal, the three canals and the River Barrow. We have orchestrated the campaign of engagement in as broad a way as possible.
However, Mr. Rowe is indicating that Waterways Ireland would be open to doing more.
Mr. Éanna Rowe
If there are other ways we can get further reach, we are quite open to them because, as I said-----
I apologise for interrupting Mr. Rowe. I have 30 seconds left.
Assuming that Waterways Ireland is open to extending and deepening the public consultation, the objective would be to publish a revised draft set of by-laws. Would it be willing to come back to the committee to give us some time to further scrutinise those? Many of us are only coming to this at the last minute. Both the committee and Waterways Ireland would benefit from a session of further scrutiny of the revised draft. Would it be open to that?
Mr. Éanna Rowe
Absolutely.
I thank the witnesses for being here. I apologise that I missed the start because I came from another meeting. Will Waterways Ireland give me an indication - it is still open for submissions - of how many submissions have been received and a recap of how it reached out to stakeholders in this field to encourage as many people as possible to have their say?
The proposal to change the €127 permit fee to €200 amounts to a 55% increase.
We are hearing from boat owners regarding the logistics around this and what that looks like for them. Am I right in saying there was a €126 mooring fee that might increase to €1,500? Could I get a bit of context on that? This would be a twelvefold increase if that is the case and a significant increase from a financial perspective for people who are dealing with cost-of-living issues in their households.
This is a €600 million industry that puts nature and tourism at the heart of what happens and from which many people make their livelihood, in addition to those who spend their lives on boats. I had the pleasure of spending a weekend on a barge on the Shannon as part of my summer holidays with people who do this for months on end and it was the most incredible relaxing experience. I want to make sure that people who do make such an effort to ensure other people get the opportunity to come and enjoy these natural amenities can do so from a financial perspective. I want to make sure that the safety of any person on our canals and barges is prioritised but also that it is affordable for people to do. Could I get comments from all our witnesses on the permit fee, the mooring fee and the submissions? I acknowledge that it is great to hear confirmation that we will not be rushing this but will get it right because it is really important that we do so.
Mr. Éanna Rowe
Having received over 300 submissions so far, we are delighted with the number of submissions. They have come across the three platforms we have provided. One is through our website, the second is by email and the third is by the old conventional way of sending something in the post. As I said in my statement and brief, we advertised the consultation across different media and forums for people to glean information about the by-laws. Mr. Harkin may wish to answer the question about the permits and the fees.
Mr. Patrick Harkin
Regarding permits on canals, in 1988, which is 35 years ago, the figure was set at £100, which is €126. In 2023, the value of that £100 is about €288. We are going with €200 so we are proposing a very reasonable fee for-----
Nonetheless, it is an increase.
Mr. Patrick Harkin
It is an increase from €126 to €200 based on a 35-year-old fee from 1988. At the moment, there is no houseboat mooring permit on the canals. We want to bring in legislation so that people are legally issued with a houseboat permit, as is the case in other countries. We are operating off an old permit from 35 years ago that does not say "houseboat" on it. We would like to be in a position to start increasing our services so that people can legally live on houseboats along our canals with proper services such as sewerage, water and electricity. There will be a fee associated with those houseboat permits and the fee for the rural serviced area is proposed to be €1,500.
We did not just pick that figure out of the air. We have looked at this for a considerable period. We employed KPMG, which carried out an international analysis. In countries such as Scotland, the fee is set at 40% of the cost of renting a two-bedroom apartment in that location, while in England it is 47% of the cost of renting a two-bedroom apartment in that location. When we took those figures with KPMG, the figure for Sallins or Castleknock is €3,500. We feel that is too much. We are very conscious of the cost of living and the housing crisis so we have gone with a considerably lower figure - less than half.
Would other witnesses like to come in on that?
Mr. Jerry Gleeson
Mr. Rowe mentioned Sallins. The cost for the serviced jetty in Sallins is €2,500 so it is going up from €126 to €2,500. I know retired people living on that jetty who are extremely concerned about being able to meet this charge. Also, it is a permit payment that must be paid out in one go. It is not as if it can be paid out over the year in instalments so this has made a lot of people very worried. The vast majority of boat dwellers on the canals are living on the grass bank. They generate their own power with solar panels and wind generators. All they really require from Waterways Ireland is pump-out facilities for sewerage and water and for the navigation to be kept in good condition.
The first speaker asked the witnesses about the fees for search and rescue and suicide watch using the waterways. Is there a fee for people performing an essential service in trying to save lives?
Mr. Éanna Rowe
There will be no fee for people in search and rescue.
Is that also the case for suicide watch or anyone who helps to keep the waterways safe?
Mr. Éanna Rowe
There is a really good suicide watch group in Limerick city.
There are two.
Mr. Éanna Rowe
Sorry - two - and they are on land in the main but they do have a boat we provided at our facility in Limerick for search and rescue and suicide watch so there is no permit fee associated with that activity.
Will the increase in the fee from €126 to €200 be across the board? Will the fees change like those in Sallins? Will the fees change in Limerick? Will they change in each individual district? Why will the fee in Sallins be €2,500?
Mr. Éanna Rowe
There are two separate permits. One permit is for use of the navigations, which is increasing from €126 to €200. The second permit is a specific permit for houseboats that will be attached to a location. There are five different types of location. There are urban locations such as Dublin, there are suburban serviced and suburban unserviced sites and there are rural serviced and rural unserviced sites.
We are looking at rural unserviced sites with a fee of €1,500.
Mr. Éanna Rowe
The fee for rural unserviced sites is €500.
Then it goes up to the serviced sites so Waterways Ireland will raise the fee as it applies to the different locations where there are services. I am not a boating person. I am a tourism person. I would like to see people coming in and being able to dock because it supports the economy. From listening to a boating person, their only request is for a place for pumping sewerage. If somebody does not require electricity or any of the other services provided by Waterways Ireland other than a pumping station, could Waterways Ireland not request this so the fee can come down?
Mr. Éanna Rowe
The way we have structured the fees is exactly as the Deputy described it. There is a fee for unserviced sites in rural and suburban locations and there is a different fee for serviced sites. If you require no services and all you want is a houseboat permit that gives you certain rights, the fee for that in a rural unserviced location is €500. The balancing act we are trying to provide here is to keep our navigations as true navigations for navigation purposes, in other words, so that people want to travel our wonderful waterways. What we are really conscious of is the situation in which some English canals have found themselves where they are choked and true navigation is no longer possible. We are trying to achieve a balancing act. There will be a limit to the number of houseboat locations and houseboat permits. We have structured this in such a way that we have a tiered approach to the permit fees that are required.
There are people who have been living on boats for the past 20 or 30 years. If they were living on land, they would have rights to stay where they were and nothing could be done.
Does the same thing apply where somebody has been on the waterways for the last 20 or 30 years in the same location? What rights will they have if these by-laws come in?
Mr. Éanna Rowe
We are into legal rights here regarding adverse possession of property, etc. In identifying sites as suitable for houseboat locations, we will consult our partners in the local authorities and boaters. In general, subject to planning permission, we will try as far as possible to locate those houseboat facilities at or adjacent to where we have existing houseboat communities.
Therefore, there will be respect for the existing locations as much as possible.
Deputy Ó Broin spoke earlier and I believe Mr. Rowe gave a commitment to extend the 108-day consultation period. I personally was off for summer; I was sick. However, many other people in the tourism industry were in their peak season. As was said by other speakers, this came out in the middle of a peak season. I know that if I was in the middle of my peak season, this would probably be the last thing on my mind because I would be busy trying to make a few euro to try to keep my business afloat in these troubling times. I am open to it being extended. I ask Mr. Rowe to come back to us in writing outlining by how much Waterways Ireland is willing to extend the consultation period. I am looking forward to being educated on the water services.
I apologise if I ask some questions that seem blatantly obvious but I just want to get some context and a grounding. I grew up alongside the Grand Canal. One of the best things that has happened in Dublin in recent years has been the Royal Canal cycleway which provides enjoyment in the summer particularly of that Royal Canal. That cycleway has been transformed from East Wall onwards. My part of the Grand Canal has not had that same treatment. I am from Rialto-Dolphin's Barn. From Portobello it is very much for leisure but on our side, it is not. More investment is needed to connect it to Bluebell and beyond. Two years ago, I took the opportunity of my honeymoon to cycle from Mullingar back to Dublin. It can be a fantastic amenity for people.
I want to focus on whether a strategy has been developed for the use of the canals to go alongside the revision in these by-laws. I understand the by-laws have not been updated for 35 years, but it is important to place them in the context of the use of the canals. For example, are they for providing housing or are they for recreation and leisure? I would like to get an idea of the strategy behind that.
Regarding the analysis of the capacity, Mr. Rowe has said that Waterways Ireland will try to locate it where there are existing houseboat communities. Has an analysis of the capacity of each of the canals and the Shannon been done? Where is that landing? How does that compare with current licences that are granted? Is there a mismatch between them? How many additional licences is it envisaged will be granted in the next year, five years and ten years? Will there be separate treatment of commercial activity as opposed to leisure activity?
Will the licences be tied to a person or tied to a boat? Will there be any limitations on the number of licences each individual may apply for? For example, a commercial cruising company might have 20 licences. Will that be tied to each of the individual boats or will it be tied to a person? What is the legal situation where people might want to sublet? For example, if somebody has been living on a houseboat and has had a licence to live there for the past 20 years, may he or she sublet that houseboat?
Mr. Éanna Rowe
I will try to answer as many of those questions as I can within the time I have left. If I do not get to them, we can certainly pick up again on them. I can confirm that we have development plans for our waterways and we are currently updating some of those development plans. Some of them are quite a few years old.
Regarding the use of our canal towpaths for cycleways and greenways, we are working hand in glove with our colleagues in the local authorities and with organisations such as Transport Infrastructure Ireland, TII, and others to ensure we can continue to build on the success of the Royal Canal greenway. The Royal Canal greenway currently stops at Maynooth but we are working with our colleagues to get it all the way into the city centre. We have ambitious plans for where the two greenways will meet in Grand Canal Basin. I can see Senator Fitzpatrick nodding because she is well aware of that. We are also looking at how we can encourage the mix of use between commercial, leisure and recreation which Senator Moynihan mentioned. Through-navigation is crucial so that people can get from point A to point B and also supporting the live-aboard communities. When we are looking at the development of all of our waterways, particularly the waterways in Dublin, we are taking on board those four areas.
The Senator asked who will hold a commercial licence. The commercial licence will be issued to the person, the company or whatever it is. The houseboat permit will also be to the person but will be non-transferable. Therefore, someone with a houseboat will not be able to sublet.
Are there limitations on how many licences a company can get?
Mr. Éanna Rowe
Is that to run a commercial operation on the waterways?
Mr. Éanna Rowe
They are dealt with on a case-by-case basis. For example, particularly where we have our blueways on the Shannon, we would have multiple operators operating from one location. These may be for stand-up paddle boarding, kayak hire, guided kayaks, pedalo boats, etc. There could be multiple operators operating from one location, particularly on our blueways.
May I come back in? How many licences are currently issued? Is there a waiting list for them? What is the proposed capacity?
Mr. Éanna Rowe
Is the Senator asking about commercial licences or houseboats?
Both.
The Senator will need to get a written response to that. I call Deputy Cian O'Callaghan.
I would be grateful if Mr. Rowe could answer Senator Moynihan's question about licences.
Mr. Éanna Rowe
I am not sure of the number of commercial operators we have at the minute on our waterways. I do not know the number off hand. However, there are several hundred. Regarding houseboats, we do not have houseboat permits at the moment. As my colleague Mr. Harkin outlined already, this is why we need to revise the by-laws.
I know we do not have houseboat permits, but does Mr. Rowe know what numbers we are talking about?
Mr. Éanna Rowe
We have over 100 live-aboard boats on the canals at present.
I now come to my own questions. Does Mr. Rowe accept there is a lack of fairness for current users, including residential boat owners and businesses, in that they are facing massive increases in fees? Part of the rationale being offered is that the fees have not been increased since the 1980s. Current users are not responsible for the fact that fees have not been increased since the 1980s. It would be fair enough for anyone to have a legitimate expectation that if they are to face an increase in any fee, it would not be at this sort of scale. Simply because someone else, for whatever reason, has not been able to increase it in decades, does not mean it is fair to place the burden of that on individuals. Does Mr. Rowe accept that is unfair? People would not have an expectation of such an increase. They have made investments and life decisions. They have planned for their retirement without an expectation of this increase. For some people, it will cause enormous stress, anxiety and hardship.
Mr. Éanna Rowe
An increase in the cost of an annual permit from €127 to €200 is reasonable.
On the houseboat permits, as we outlined already, we had independent research done and tried to benchmark this internationally as to what is charged for houseboat permits.
Did Waterways Ireland commission independent research?
Mr. Éanna Rowe
We did so through KPMG. We took that research and when we looked at the fees, we halved what was being recommended in the research because, again, we are cognisant of the cost-of-living crisis, the fact that these would be new fees and, indeed, that we need to regulate this sector.
I totally accept the sector needs to be regulated but I would like to see that done in a way where key stakeholders are on board with changes. Clearly, we have a situation where that is not the case at the moment.
On the Shannon, and the very significant resource it is where it has multiple uses ranging from leisure, biodiversity, and water resources, does Mr. Rowe believe there needs to be an overall strategy, vision and a strategic review of how the Shannon is used and that, perhaps, changes need to fall out from that rather than come before it?
Mr. Éanna Rowe
We have a strategy in place which is one we adopted with Fáilte Ireland and the ten local authorities from Cavan right down to Limerick City and County Council. It is called the Shannon Tourism Masterplan. It is a ten-year strategy for the development of the recreation and navigational jewel that the Shannon is. It is the foundation of Fáilte Ireland's fourth proposition: Ireland's Hidden Heartlands. We are working hand-in-glove with our colleagues in Fáilte Ireland and indeed with the ten local authorities, together with Coillte, Bord na Móna and the local communities in how we implement the Shannon Tourism Masterplan. It is a transformative plan for the development of the Shannon as a tourism resource.
I wish to allow the other guests to make contributions also. That is the tourism plan but I am asking if there needs to be a wider strategic plan encompassing all aspects of uses? I invite any of the other two groups to make a response, if they so wish, to any of these points?
Mr. Derek Whelan
I would have a great deal of sympathy for people on houseboats but I would point out that, as has been said, the increases in charges after 20 or 30 years are fairly reasonable. We would not go along with quite a number of the higher charges for various moorings because we do not feel they are value for money. On the other hand, people who live on houseboats do not have to pay property tax. I do not know if that is a saving to them but it makes it easier for them than people who are living on land.
We see Waterways Ireland as being like landlords who rent out space on the water. In other words, if you are putting your boat on the water, it should be like putting your caravan in a caravan site. You are paying for an area and are entitled to certain services.
I thank Mr. Whelan for that response. Can the Irish Residential Boat Owners Association make a contribution now, please?
Mr. Jerry Gleeson
Boaters do not pay property tax but then they do not have any property rights. Boat owners provide their own boat and what Waterways Ireland provides is a parking space. Mr. Rowe mentioned comparing it to a two-bedroom apartment. The price of a parking space is a much more realistic way to measure this.
My apologies to Mr. Gleeson. I have to keep cutting his contributions but I have to be strict because I will not get contributions from everybody otherwise. I call Senator Cummins to speak.
I would just like to allow both associations to continue their contributions in that vein if there are any additional points which they wish to make. It is important they are given sufficient time. I will have a question then for Mr. Rowe.
Mr. Jerry Gleeson
Another point I would like to raise on the number of houseboats on the canals and the Barrow - Mr. Rowe said it might be above 100 - is that we believe we probably have the best figures for that and it is closer to 200. We estimate that is more than 250 people, including schoolgoing children, retired people, disabled people. It is the whole gamut of normal society who are living on boats. The idea that there is some issue with the canals being constricted is laughable. They are completely empty. There are a few spots at Hazelhatch, Sallins and Lowtown where one has to slow down one's boat for two and a half minutes, three minutes, or four minutes to get through and then one is out into empty space. Once one leaves Lowtown, one does not see a boat until one reaches Shannon Harbour. When one leaves Lowtown on the Barrow line, one does not see boats until one reaches Graiguenamanagh.
Mr. Gleeson compared this to a parking space. What does he consider to be a reasonable figure?
Mr. Jerry Gleeson
I would find it difficult to say right now as the Senator has, in a way, put me on the spot. We are not against increases in prices but to increase prices by this percentage with no increase in services, with a vague idea that there might be more services in the future with the money that is raised by this increase, but with no commitment on that front-----
I believe there is a commitment - correct me if I am wrong - that there will be additional services. It would be helpful to the committee, and certainly with regard to the consultation which is ongoing, if an actual figure was put on that - a figure which Mr. Gleeson feels is reasonable. There is always a figure to be arrived at. Someone will have a view that it should be X and someone else will have a view that it should be Y. Generally, there is probably a figure which would be somewhere in the middle, which is the right figure. It might be helpful for the entire process if they bottomed that out as a group and organisation. I am not dictating that to Mr. Gleeson's organisation but I am just suggesting it.
Mr. Jerry Gleeson
I will give a quick example. Waterways Ireland has serviced jetties in Ringsend Basin where there are 20 boats. All of its jetties are full, which is great. In Sallins, I am unsure exactly how many boats are on the serviced jetty but it is full. One then comes to Lowtown, where there are 17 boats on the serviced jetty, two of which are dwellings. The rest of the live aboards in the Lowtown area do not choose to live on that jetty.
When one goes to Shannon Harbour, there is what is called a residential jetty with six spaces, two of which are residential boats and the other four are weekend boats. If you do not build the jetties in the right places and in the right way, people will not want to rent them.
I thank Mr. Gleeson and I am anxious about letting Mr. Galway contribute at this point.
Mr. Niall Galway
There has been a figure bandied around about a rate or how to charge and this has come from a group of people who live on boats in Ringsend Basin. I represent the Royal Canal Amenity Group but I have spoken to some of them. They have suggested a square metre rate so the bigger the boat, the more one pays, and the smaller the boat, likewise. One person there has suggested, and has used as an example, that they have gone on to one of the websites and have figured out how much per square metre an apartment is to rent there. The charge is based on a percentage of that and there are services then added on to that, so that if they have water, it is a percentage of that, or, if they have electricity, it is a further percentage for that. That has been debated within the Grand Canal Dock community, with no set figure, but that is how they were thinking of working it out.
I thank Mr. Galway, and that is perhaps useful. Could Mr. Rowe comment on that and on what he mentioned around the no subletting piece? I am wondering how that compares with other jurisdictions in that respect.
Mr. Éanna Rowe
I thank the Senator. I will discuss the last point first. The KPMG report we commissioned used the very metric which Mr. Galway mentioned with regard to the calculations that it made on what would be reasonable to charge for a houseboat permit. We have taken that on board but have come in with a much lower figure because, as I said already, we are conscious of starting from zero and getting to a place where we can support vibrant houseboat communities.
In the context of Dublin, we have 20 serviced sites now. We hope to increase that to 40 through the planning process. We have a waiting list of 127 boats for those jetties. So the demand is there.
The next slot is Sinn Féin's. We are not going to have time for everybody. If people want to cut it down to two or three minutes I might be able to get everyone in but for six minutes, as agreed, with the numbers present, I will not be able to fit everybody in. Do members agree to cut the time down?
Can we get two minutes each?
Okay, yes.
I will let the Senator in before myself.
Deputy Gould is a gentleman. Go raibh maith agat. I thank the witnesses for attending today, not only Waterways Ireland but all those who live on our waterways. They are incredibly valuable resources to us. The Royal Canal is in my neck of the woods at the city end, from Spencer Dock out. The work going on there is commendable. We always knew it was a great resource, not only as a waterway but also locally. The upgrade of the greenway is fantastic. There is some concern there will be an overengineering of what is a pristine natural environment. I say that because there is a real fear among city dwellers, more than anyone.
There has been a lot of debate. There is real concern. I think I am hearing from Waterways Ireland that it will extend this consultation. We need clarity on what that means in practice. It was always my expectation that there was 108 days, then there would be feedback and it would come back to us.
Can I get a copy of the KPMG international analysis? I would specifically like the terms of reference and the remit given to KPMG. It has to be sustainable, not only environmentally but also socially. That is the point I would make: any changes we are going to make have to be sustainable economically and socially. They have to be socially sustainable for the communities that are already there but also for the ones that are going to come. There is a long waiting list in Dublin. We want to see it fulfilled but we have to do it sustainably and with services that are appropriate. That is what I ask. I will not even ask for a response to let the other members come in. I have put some specific requests in for information and we will come back to this.
I said in our private meeting that it seemed like a very short time to give to a really important issue. We, as a committee, will try to return to this issue.
Mr. Éanna Rowe
The report was attached to our brief which was sent to the committee.
I know Senator Boyhan and Deputy Lawless have not spoken and it is an issue important to them so I will concede our time.
I received some correspondence today which I expect many of us have. I will make two points. Waterways Ireland wishes to use by-laws to generate income yet it has no customer charter and no dispute resolution system other than the courts. All these should be in place before Waterways Ireland receives permission to increase its fees and charges. I think that is reasonable; I do not know if it is factually correct.
Two county councils have voted unanimously against the introduction of the Shannon by-laws, namely, Leitrim County Council and Offaly County Council. They are hugely impacted by all this. There are good reasons they voted against them. I understand Roscommon County Council and Longford County Council will follow suit. Those four local authorities are very impacted by this and it appears they are all against it. What would Waterways Ireland say on those two matters?
Mr. Éanna Rowe
I am aware of the motions passed in the two local authorities. Leitrim County Council has not rejected the by-laws. It has said it is querying the public consultation process. We will look at extending it and coming back to this forum for another session.
Sorry to cut across Mr. Rowe but will Waterways Ireland come back to us with its responses to those councils, that is, any responses to their motions?
Mr. Éanna Rowe
I only received the correspondence from-----
I am saying to think about it; I am not asking Mr. Rowe to do it today. But to come back to the committee.
Mr. Éanna Rowe
Of course I will. I received the correspondence from Leitrim County Council yesterday and I have not received the correspondence from Offaly County Council.
When Mr. Rowe has both of those, will he come back to us?
Mr. Éanna Rowe
Yes.
Perfect.
Mr. Éanna Rowe
I have spoken to Roscommon, Longford, Westmeath and other local authorities today. There are no motions in front of them at the moment. That is to clarify that.
As of now.
Mr. Éanna Rowe
The Senator spoke about a customer services strategy. Waterways Ireland has a customer services strategy. We are an open publicly funded public body. We are subject to the same rigours as any other public body. We are responsible to the Ombudsman, etc. The point being made is really in relation to the provisions of the Maritime Safety Act and the on-the-spot fine that can be brought in. The appeals mechanism there is to the District Court, just as it is for road traffic offences - the same would apply on water.
Thank you.
I thank the members of the committee. I do not sit on the committee but I have a significant interest in the topic. I live in Sallins and am very familiar with the houseboats at Sallins, Lowtown, Robertstown and Hazelhatch. Not only do I live beside them, but I also run beside them regularly.
I will throw out some points. I know we are under pressure with time. We have seen a lot of development of the canal greenways, which I really welcome, and with it canal tourism. It is something I am really excited about but it is important that the whole canal and towpath experience requires a central passage as well. Part of the attraction is the boats going up and down in the middle and the activity. That is why people are drawn to the canals. To make the greenways a success, we cannot forget about the brownway down the middle and that goes for everything, including dredging, maintenance, provision of boats and porting of boats. That is the first general point.
On how we support the boats, I agree with what Senator Boyhan said about the appeals and dispute resolution mechanisms which seem to be missing from the new by-laws. It seems that there are many anomalies with the by-laws generally. There seems to be a flat fee, whether the boat is 10 ft or 100 ft – I do not know if one could get a 100 ft boat down the canal. Regardless, it seems to be the same charge whether it is for a big or small boat and that seems unfair. I think it was Mr. Gleeson who mentioned the gentleman on the canal at Sallins, who is retired, not in great health and living on his own. He has been hit with a €2,500 charge all of a sudden. Any household would struggle with that but for a retired gentleman with some needs it is not easy at all. Some kind of means test or understanding might help. I am sure there are many more gentlemen like that. I have been on that houseboat many times, including last week when he was telling me all about this. I would ask that some provision be made for people like that. We have heard about the consultation and I would welcome its extension.
On the services they receive, recently someone raised the energy credit. We are facing into another winter. It is September and the weather has changed in the last few days. Last winter the State gave an energy credit to householders in, dare I say, regular houses. I tried might and main but I could not find a way to get that to people on the boats. Will Waterways Ireland work with the powers that be to make sure that is rolled out to people for the new year and the winter ahead?
We should be encouraging people to live on houseboats. It should be part of the housing mix, as was noted in the submission by the Irish Residential Boat Owners Association. I would love to see that. We all know we are in a housing crisis. It is worth doing as part of the fabric of the country; it adds to the gaiety of the nation and it adds a bit of colour. I could see myself trying to get a houseboat at some stage. Many of us would like the idea of it. We should not be capping them. Rather we should be expanding them and supporting them. Those are general points and there are a few questions in there. If there was a dedicated session on this, it would be very beneficial but I would ask that those points be taken on board.
Mr. Éanna Rowe
On the electricity credit, someone using Waterways Ireland is already getting electricity at a discounted rate. The electricity is supplied through a power bollard which is accessed by a smart card. Waterways Ireland pays the bill for the electricity.
So they are getting the credit before they draw it down, and that would be so for last year.
Mr. Éanna Rowe
It is already subvented and it always has been subvented.
Okay.
Mr. Éanna Rowe
The Deputy raised a lot of points and we have been in correspondence already. I would be glad to take them up again.
We will try to further engage anyway so we will address those. Deputy Gould has the last slot.
I am okay. If the other groups want to round up, I will concede the time.
Do people want to take a minute to round up on it? We already have agreement. I apologise. An hour is a very short period of time. I am sorry that I had to cut people off to get everyone in. We have agreement that this is to be extended and there will be further engagement with the committee and our guests. There is the KPMG report for Senator Fitzpatrick.
It would be good if the Chair put this on the agenda for our private meeting on Tuesday because we may want to write to the Minister to express some views.
I am happy to do that.
Mr. Rowe said the KPMG report was attached to the statement but it is not attached to anything we have. I just went to look for it. Can we have that sent to us?
Okay. We will follow up on that.
Mr. Éanna Rowe
It was sent to the committee with the correspondence. We responded.
We will check. If we can find it great, if we cannot, we will come back to the witnesses. I will offer Mr. Finnegan or Mr. Gleeson the opportunity take a minute to wrap up.
Mr. Liam Finnegan
The period allowed is very short and I thank Deputy Flaherty for getting it onto the agenda. There is much more to this and we need time. However, Leitrim County Council called on Waterways Ireland and the Minister of State, Deputy Noonan, to carry out a public consultation in line with the January 2019 Government guidelines before considering the introduction of the new by-laws for the Shannon catchment area. The by-laws reduce mooring times from five days to three, remove winter moorings and impose a tax on all businesses operating on the River Shannon, all of which put the upper Shannon region and its waterways at a disadvantage in attracting boaters and visitors alike. These by-laws will reduce both overnight stays and visitors and will have a detrimental effect on all towns. They are talking about the consultation. There is a lot there from Leitrim County Council. I believe Longford County Council is following suit and Offaly County Council has done. It will be interesting to see. It is more than just a consultation, there is a lot in there.
I thank Mr. Finnegan and call on Mr. Whelan to wrap up.
Mr. Derek Whelan
Obviously there are issues that have not been dealt with due to the time constraint. We are open to any members of the committee who may want further briefing. They can contact us. We are willing to discuss the matter further. That is all we can do now.
Likewise, for groups, if they have any questions please send them to us. In our engagement with the Minister we can seek a response, or with Waterways Ireland in response to that. I call Mr. Rowe.
Mr. Éanna Rowe
Gabhaim míle maith ag an gCathaoirleach, ag na Teachtaí agus ag na Seanadóirí as an éisteacht a thug siad dúinn inniu. I thank members for the hearing they gave us today. I stress once again that we in Waterways Ireland would ask all interested parties to have their say and make a contribution to this process. We want to get it right. They are out of date, unfit for the environment and the market in which we work, for the health and safety considerations that are paramount in everything we do on our waterways. Through the committee's good offices, I ask it to encourage people to engage with the public consultation process and make a submission on both sets of by-laws.
I thank Mr. Rowe. When he establishes how long the extension will be, will he send us that information?
Mr. Éanna Rowe
I will.
Public representatives can then advise people that another X number of days or months are left, whatever is considered appropriate. We will certainly do that through our own channels. Again, I am sorry for cutting this so short.
Mr. Éanna Rowe
Perfect.
Before we finish up, I thank everyone for coming in. Obviously they have to go back and deliberate. However, if they could make contact with the committee and advise how long they are giving for the extension to the consultation period, that would be very good. We will discuss this in our meeting next week. I was going to recommend at that meeting that we ask the Minister to pause the by-laws but in light of what has been said today and the extension on the consultation period, I am happy with that and for the various groups to come back in. As we have two distinct by-laws here, we need a session on the River Shannon and a distinct session on the canals. Arising from that, I hope we can make our own agreed submissions to both of those consultations. That would be a meaningful resolution to this from our point of view.
Sitting suspended at 4.04 p.m. and resumed at 4.19 p.m.