Joint Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage debate -
Thursday, 19 Oct 2023

Consideration of the Citizens' Assembly Report on a Directly Elected Mayor of Dublin: Discussion

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The committee is meeting today to discuss the citizens' assembly report on a directly elected mayor of Dublin. The committee has decided to set aside three meetings to consider the job that has been put before us by the Dáil. The Dáil has sent us the recommendations of the Dublin Citizens' Assembly. It has asked us to consider the recommendations, to consider if a plebiscite is required to implement the office of a directly elected mayor, and to consider what the wording of that plebiscite would be. It has asked us to report back to the Dáil by 31 December. Given the huge demands on this committee, and I know many of the witnesses have the same demands as regards housing, planning and many other issues, we have tried to take some time on Thursdays to deal with this matter. We will have spokespeople from different parties that are not normally members of the committee. I propose, in that scenario, to deal with the members of the committee first and any non-members will be dealt with after that.

We thank the witnesses for being here. We understand it is always short notice when invitations are issued but we appreciate all the witnesses being here today. This is the first session with the local authority chief executives and cathaoirligh, including the cathaoirleach of the Eastern and Midland Regional Assembly and its director. Next week it will be followed up with witnesses from the National Transport Authority, NTA, the Department of Education and the HSE. The last week will involve witnesses from the chambers of commerce in the four Dublin local authorities and the public participation networks, as a statutory representation of the community sector. As of today, we will be inviting any other interested bodies to make a written submission to us and it will be considered in the context of our work.

We have received apologies from the Cathaoirleach, Deputy Matthews.

From the Eastern and Midland Regional Assembly, we are joined by Councillor Karen Feeney, the cathaoirleach, and Ms Clare Bannon, the director. From Dublin City Council, we are joined by Mr. Richard Shakespeare, CEO, and Ms Eileen Quinlivan, deputy CEO. From Fingal County Council, we are joined by Ms AnnMarie Farrelly, CEO. From Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council, we are joined by Mr. Frank Curran, CEO, and from South Dublin County Council, we are joined by Mr. Colm Ward, CEO. Apologies have been received from the cathaoirligh of the four local authorities. The opening statements have been circulated to members.

Before we continue, I will read a short note on privilege. I wish to remind members of the constitutional requirement that members must be physically present within the confines of the place where the Parliament has chosen to sit, namely, Leinster House, to participate in public meetings. For those witnesses attending in the committee room, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their contributions to today's meeting. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. Both members and witnesses are expected not to abuse the privilege they enjoy and it is my duty as Chair to ensure this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction should it be issued.

For witnesses attending remotely, there are some limitations to parliamentary privilege and, as such, they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a person who is physically here in the Oireachtas.

Members and witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. The opening statements will be published on the committee website after this meeting.

I will now invite the witnesses to make their opening statements. With the committee's permission, I ask that Mr. Shakespeare from Dublin City Council go first as he has another appointment. I am not showing my bias having come from Dublin City Council.

Mr. Richard Shakespeare

I welcome the opportunity to address this committee on the plebiscite for a directly elected mayor for Dublin. The work of the Dublin Citizens’ Assembly should be commended. It is an ambitious and transformative proposal, a statement of intent to strengthen local government in its powers, funding and representation in recognition of the Dublin regions’ importance.

Dublin City Council has a long and proud tradition of serving the public and leading the direction, growth and development of the city. The city council comprises 63 elected members whose term of office commenced in June 2019. The executive, together with the elected councillors, has an ambitious vision for Dublin city, that is, to be a dynamic, sustainable city that is future ready, built on thriving, inclusive neighbourhoods and communities, a strong economy, a vibrant cultural life, and compact, connected growth. Our core principles of commitment to excellent public service, sustainability, leadership, ambition and fairness and accountability guide us in all elements of our work, in how we serve our communities and in the impact we have on the environment. More than ever, global and national trends and issues are impacting on the city region, and the council’s internal operating environment is constantly evolving to respond to these challenges and to deliver for the city and region.

As the municipal government for Ireland’s capital city, and the largest local authority in Ireland, the city council employs approximately 5,900 staff. The 2023 revenue budget amounts to €1.24 billion, while the three-year capital programme to 2025 amounts to €2.86 billion. The council provides a wide and diverse range of more than 800 discrete services to the citizens of Dublin city, the population of which was in excess of 590,000 at the latest census, to businesses and to visitors to the city. Activities are carried out in both physical works areas such as the provision and maintenance of housing and roads and in the areas of arts, sports, recreation and social services, such as libraries, sports facilities, parks, community development and housing welfare services. The city council provides emergency services and homeless services to the Dublin region through Dublin Fire Brigade and the Dublin Region Homeless Executive, respectively.

Council facilities are spread geographically throughout the city and are located outside the Dublin City Council area. The city council is responsible for the social, economic, infrastructural and cultural development of the city. The range of services provided by the council could best be summarised by listing the programme group structures used by central government to classify the activities of all local authorities as follows: housing and building; road transportation and safety; development incentives and controls; environmental protection; recreation and amenity; education, health and welfare; and miscellaneous services.

I know the assembly had input from experts in their fields, including on the role of local government, its evolution and comparisons with other European cities where local government has responsibility for a much wider range of functions. The first recommendation of the assembly relates to the powers that should be devolved to a directly elected mayor and includes housing and homelessness; economic development; infrastructure, roads and footpaths; climate change; environment and biodiversity; planning, land use and strategic development; arts, culture and sport; night-time economy; tourism and marketing; waste management; community healthcare; emergency services; childcare; support for Traveller and Roma communities; transport; water; policing; primary healthcare; primary and secondary education; and the Gaeltacht and Irish language. It further recommended that powers for further and higher education and skills should be devolved to the office of the directly elected mayor and local government between five and ten years after its establishment.

Many of these functions are already within the core functions of the local authority sector - housing, planning, libraries and the public realm to name a few. Others are very effectively provided on a regional basis, such as homeless services and the fire service, for example. In other areas the council has moved away from the direct provision of some services such as domestic waste and fulfils a more regulatory role. What is proposed will bring about significant change across the entire public sector. While Dublin City Council often acts in partnership or collaborates with multiple agencies or bodies, for example in delivering events to promote and support tourism and the capital city, the body with overall responsibility for tourism is Fáilte Ireland. The local authority sector has always collaborated with and been supported by An Garda Síochána in joint policing committees and initiatives in local community areas, but currently Dublin City Council is not directly responsible and has no powers in relation to policing.

This is an ambitious programme, and to deliver it effectively will require a complete restructuring of not only local government but central government Departments and State agencies as well. A clear vision and a well-defined roadmap are required, including legislative changes, to enable buy-in and to deliver for Dublin and its citizens. We must reflect on the range of changes and reforms in recent years, such as the establishment of Irish Water or the National Transport Authority.

This is a major departure from what has been occurring over recent years and needs careful consideration.

The assembly's recommendation is that the directly-elected mayor should have an explicit power to initiate and to introduce new regulations in areas of policy where authority or responsibility has been devolved to him or her. This will require the removal or diminution of power from other areas or bodies to meaningfully effect reform.

A directly-elected mayor is achievable. It has the potential to become a catalyst for reforming the public sector and the systems within it. There are clear examples of similar structures in other European cities that work well and where local government has a much broader range of functions. However, this would require buy-in from Departments and Government agencies and local authorities and would require strong vision and leadership.

I note the final recommendation on the holding of a plebiscite. I fully endorse the proposal that the plebiscite should - I would say "must" - detail the proposed powers of a directly-elected mayor and the structures required. It is critical that the public have a clear understanding of what they are voting for.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Thank you, Mr. Shakespeare. I call Ms Farrelly.

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

As chief executive of Fingal County Council, I welcome this opportunity to address the committee as it considers the citizens' assembly report on a directly-elected mayor of Dublin. Along with the chief executives of the other three Dublin local authorities, I addressed the citizens' assembly in Malahide on Sunday, 1 May 2022. We all spoke of the need to retain the existing local authorities, and I am pleased that one of the 18 recommendations in the report is the retention of existing local authority structures.

Many of the recommendations of the citizens' assembly are wide-ranging, and there is a lot of detail that will have to be worked out before they can be implemented. It is acknowledged that Ireland has a very centralised form of government, with local authorities performing fewer functions than municipalities across Europe. Dr. Mary Murphy of Maynooth University, in the research paper "Democracy Works If You Let It", found that only 8% of Irish public spending occurs at local government level, compared with an EU average of over 23%, and that a quarter of the Irish spend is not fully under local authority control.

The recommendations in the report propose devolving a wide range of powers to a directly-elected mayor and creating new local government structures in Dublin. Some of these powers, such as responsibility for primary and community healthcare, transport, education and policing, currently lie across various Departments and Government agencies, while water is in the process of being handed over to Uisce Éireann by the local authorities after many years of negotiations. There will need to be a willingness within central government to hand over responsibility and funding to the new local government structures, as well as an appreciation of the scale of the structures and the resources that will be required to deliver these additional services through the local authorities. The present situation, whereby the four local authorities deal directly with the various Departments and Government agencies for a wide range of services, already involves a lot of bureaucracy. There is a realistic fear that placing another layer between the local authority and central government will add further complexity, when the objective is to become more efficient and deliver better outcomes.

The question of how the new structure will be funded will also need to be addressed. At present the four Dublin local authorities have, between them, revenue budgets totalling €2.12 billion and capital programmes worth €5.9 billion. That money is accounted for and is used to deliver over 1,000 different existing services to the people of Dublin city and county, as well as building the infrastructure to allow the Dublin region to grow sustainably.

In Fingal, we have just unveiled a three-year capital programme worth €1.35 billion, with 67 of the 312 projects already on site. Those projects will deliver much-needed infrastructure to a county with a growing population, so it is important we are able to maintain that level of delivery into the future.

Clarification is also needed around the structure and the membership of the Dublin city and county assembly and its relationship with the mayor, his or her cabinet and the local authorities. Will the assembly's membership be made up of existing councillors from the four local authorities or will it consist of a totally different cohort of public representatives? There would be better linkage between the assembly and the councils if the membership of the assembly were to consist of councillors elected by their respective councils, similar to the membership of the regional assemblies. The number of councillors from each council should be based on the population of their respective local authority areas in order that there is equitable representation. There were 12 councillors on the citizens' assembly and, because the allocation of seats was proportionate to the relative strength of the parties and groups across the four Dublin local authorities, Fingal ended up with only one councillor among the 12.

The membership of the mayor's cabinet also requires in-depth examination as it is recommended that the majority of members be councillors. That could mean that a councillor could be a member of his or her local council, a member of the plenary session, a member of the city and county assembly and a member of the mayor's cabinet. This will be a heavy and demanding workload, and I note the recommendation that councillors should be paid, full-time public representatives with secretarial support.

As a local authority we are the closest form of government to the people. Fingal makes up 49% of County Dublin, and our council has become the third biggest local authority in Ireland in terms of population, budgets and staffing numbers. Our councillors and staff have worked hard over the past 30 years to develop a distinctive and self-reliant council that has created a part of Dublin in which people enjoy living.

Whenever a plebiscite on a directly elected mayor for the city and county of Dublin is held, it is of the utmost importance that the citizens are fully informed of what is being proposed, are made aware of the scale of what will emerge, are shown how it will be funded and are able to understand the impact it will have on the delivery of services and infrastructure in their local areas.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Thank you, Ms Farrelly. I call Mr. Curran.

Mr. Frank Curran

I thank the Chair and members of the Joint Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage for the invitation. I welcome the opportunity to address the committee as it considers the citizens' assembly report on a directly-elected mayor for Dublin.

By way of background, Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown is home to 18.6% of the population of Dublin, or just under 234,000 people. It covers an area of 126 sq. km stretching from UCD to the Wicklow border, bounded on the east by 17 km of coastline and on the west by the Dublin Mountains. The county's vibrant community is focused across a necklace of villages, each with its own strong identity, such as Dalkey, Foxrock, Monkstown, Rathfarnham, Shankill, Sandyford, Dundrum and Stepaside. Approximately 95,000 people are employed in the county, based mainly in the Sandyford business district and the larger towns of Dún Laoghaire, Stillorgan and Blackrock, with the council providing services ranging from homeless supports to libraries and from transport to road sweeping, all from an annual budget of €235 million. There is also a three-year capital works programme of in excess of €1 billion. The council employs more than 1,300 staff and provides in excess of 1,000 services to the public.

Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council is made up of 40 councillors who are elected from six electoral areas. Each councillor serves a five-year term. Responsibility for delivering essential public services to the communities of the county rests jointly with councillors and the executive. As the policymakers, councillors exercise their authority through reserved functions. These functions include adoption of the county development plan, the corporate plan and the annual budget, including the setting of the commercial rate, and the varying of the local property tax. The executive makes the daily operational decisions having regard to the policies adopted by the councillors. Such decisions include planning decisions, budgetary control and housing allocations. The executive also performs the regulatory functions in the best interests of the county.

Councillors are assisted in their policymaking role by the corporate policy group, CPG, which consists of the cathaoirleach and the chairs of the strategic policy committees, SPCs. The CPG provides the forum to support the elected members and the SPCs to put forward policy that impacts on the entire council for discussion and agreement before bringing it to the full council. The SPCs develop, review and monitor policy implementation. Membership of an SPC may consist of councillors and representatives of sectoral interests, such as the business community, the environment and trade unions. There are six SPCs in Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council: housing; economic development and enterprise; community, culture and well-being; planning and citizen engagement; environment and climate action; and transport and marine.

The goals and objectives of the council are set out in our corporate plan. There are eight priority areas, namely, to show leadership in protecting our environment through education and in how we work; to facilitate the development of a variety of housing options enabling improved choice that drives quality for all; to enhance people's lives through access to sustainable travel choices across our network of communities; to provide quality community, recreation, sporting and cultural opportunities for all who live, work and visit the county; to enhance the vitality of our towns and villages while preserving our natural and built heritage; to engage with businesses to support their presence and growth in the county; to promote equality and human rights by implementing the public sector equality and human rights duty; and to optimise human, financial and physical resources to deliver accessible customer-focused quality services.

Among our current priories, housing delivery is a big one. Housing commencements in Dún Laoghaire have exceeded those in all other local authorities in the State in three of the past four quarters, and we are in line to exceed our social housing delivery targets in 2023 and 2024.

One example of a scheme is in Shanganagh, with 600 mixed-tenure units, which we are doing in partnership with the Land Development Agency. We also have the Cherrywood strategic development zone, which is possibly the largest public infrastructure scheme in the country, currently under construction. It is projected to have a population of 25,000 residents, more than 8,000 homes, a retail-led town centre, six new schools, three major parks and three Luas stops.

Climate action is a priority for us. Along with the other Dublin local authorities, we recently launched our draft climate action plan. We have done significant work on active travel. We are spending over €30 million per year on active travel schemes. We are energy retrofitting all our buildings and council housing stock. Over 85% of our lights are LED lights. We are replacing our council fleet with an electric fleet, and so on. There is much work on community engagement.

Sandyford business district is an area that we spent much time on. We work closely with Sandyford business improvement district, which now has 26,000 employees, 5,000 residents, 1,000 companies, 13 Fortune 500 Companies, and generates €21.6 million in commercial rates and a €1 billion gross wage bill.

There is significant infrastructure, including roads, which will open up new areas for housing, parks, libraries, playing pitches, swimming pools, and so on.

Regarding the citizens' assembly report, it is essential that this work programme continues and is enhanced. It cannot really stop. We welcome the recommendations that the four local authorities will be retained. We need clarity about the budgets and policymaking regarding the areas of responsibility for the new mayor. It needs to be clear what remains with central government Departments and what is devolved to the mayor. On a daily basis, we deal with the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, needless to say, but we also deal with the Departments of the Environment, Climate and Communications; Transport, Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media; Enterprise, Trade and Employment; and, over the last year with the Ukrainian crisis and international protection issues, the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. We also deal with the National Transport Authority, Transport Infrastructure Ireland, the Environmental Protection Agency, Uisce Éireann and Fáilte Ireland. We deal with 29 agencies and Departments daily. The budgets and policy areas that remain once responsibility is transferred are critical.

Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown is now a distinct county in its own right. It has had a county council for 30 years and it is built around that network of villages. It is important that its identity is retained in any new arrangements. I also recommend that councillors be full-time, particularly in the new structures. As the other speakers have said, the wording of the plebiscite needs to be clear and unambiguous. Citizens need to be fully informed of the extent of the new arrangements and the impact they will have on service delivery at a local level.

Mr. Colm Ward

I thank the Cathaoirleach and members for the opportunity to address the committee. The relevant issues have been comprehensively covered in both the deliberations and the final report of the citizens' assembly. In addition, as public servants and already being accustomed to the delivery of a range of legislative responsibilities, South Dublin County Council will of course adapt to the future model and associated structures that are arrived at through the process. In that context and with the specific terms and outcome of a plebiscite, which is not yet known, detailed commentary on my behalf in relation to the role and its responsibilities is somewhat speculative and premature. Notwithstanding that, I take the opportunity to highlight certain high-level issues to be considered in moving this process forward.

I believe that such a plebiscite should clearly detail what future regime voters are being asked to decide upon, rather than presenting a binary choice. I cite the example of the UK's EU referendum which led to Brexit, which left more questions than answers afterwards. A clear understanding by the electorate of the implications and outcome of a vote for the directly elected mayor is essential.

In my view, it is also important that any new structure introduced does not devalue the individual identity of any of the existing four Dublin local authority areas or indeed present the potential to reprise past circumstances which resulted in the underprioritisation of facilities and services to certain communities and geographical areas.

South Dublin County Council was established under the Local Government Act 1993 in a pioneering reform of local government. Since then, we have strived to create and shape an identity for south County Dublin, developing and delivering key plans, strategies, infrastructure and services for our citizens and particularly working to overcome legacy challenges for the area.

The population of south Dublin is currently 301,075 people, as of the latest census, or nearly 6% of the national population, but will represent just 20% of the combined Dublin city and county population that the directly elected mayor will oversee. Tallaght, the county town of south Dublin, and its immediate environs, has a population reaching 100,000 people and is at city scale. The need to ensure an equitable focus on the citizens of Tallaght and south Dublin, and all other areas of Dublin city and county, must underpin the proposed new representational, funding and other arrangements under a directly elected mayoral structure.

We have a council membership of 40 locally elected councillors across seven local electoral areas, who function together in a plenary council responsible for a range of legislatively reserved functions, as well as four local area committees and a range of other statutory and non-statutory committees that bring local government close to its citizens. While welcoming the recommendation to keep the existing local authority structures, the marriage of this local dynamic with an overarching directly elected mayor, together with an associated cabinet and city and county assembly, needs careful consideration to ensure its optimal operation. The revision of the existing regional assembly tier to support the county and county mayoral structure, along with providing appropriate remuneration that recognises the enhanced role of elected councillors in such a structure, are particular elements that could serve to enhance the proposed future arrangements.

This council has a current workforce comprising just over 1,500 posts across areas including housing, economic development, climate action and so on. Our revenue budget for 2023 totalled €306 million while our current three-year capital programme for the period 2023 to 2025 amounts to €1.15 billion. The scale of these budgets gives the committee an insight into the associated volume and range of existing services, programmes and projects being delivered by the staff of this council as but one of four Dublin local authorities.

The Dublin local authorities have a long history of collaboration together and with other national and local bodies on housing, enterprise, tourism, and so on, from which the committee can take great confidence for any proposed future arrangements. However, the potential sharing or removal of some existing areas of local authority responsibility upon the establishment of the mayor’s office alone will likely present considerable challenges, even without the addition of the further proposed responsibilities from outside the current local authority remit.

The challenges and timeframes involved in progressing to a single national water utility in recent years should be very informative when considering the potential consolidation of a multiplicity of functions from across four of the largest local authorities in the State and from a range of central government and national bodies. The willingness of all relevant agencies and Departments to be part of that change along with the Dublin local authorities will be critical to its success.

The considerations as outlined are high-level initial observations intended to inform the pathway forward in delivering on the political will and the clear wishes of the citizens' assembly to establish a directly elected mayor for Dublin. The valuable work of the citizens' assembly on this issue is fulsomely acknowledged. I am happy to engage further with the committee at any stage in future as that pathway becomes clearer.

Ms Kate Feeney

I thank the Cathaoirleach and members for inviting the assembly to speak to the committee today. By way of background, and I know we have some former members here with Deputy Duffy, the Eastern and Midland Regional Assembly, EMRA, was established in 2015 as part of the existing regional tier of governance in Ireland. It covers 12 local authorities and includes three subregions or strategic planning areas. EMRA promotes multi-level governance, acting as a bridge between the local, regional, national and European levels. This role revolves around three axes, which are strategic planning and sustainable development, European affairs, and effectiveness in local government. The assembly focuses on driving regional development through the regional spatial and economic strategy, RSES. The current RSES for the period 2019 to 2031 came into effect in June 2019.

Of particular relevance to the matter being discussed today is that, within the RSES, we have a Dublin strategic planning area and a Dublin metropolitan area strategic plan, MASP. The MASP was prepared under the RSES, and sets out a 12- to 20-year strategic planning and investment framework to support job creation and accelerated housing supply in the Dublin metropolitan area. For our purposes, the Dublin metropolitan area covers all of Dublin city, Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown and south Dublin, as well as parts of Fingal, Meath, Kildare and Wicklow. It is the first statutory plan for the metropolitan area of Dublin and was prepared in collaboration with the transport agencies, infrastructure providers and the relevant local authorities. The MASP contains an integrated land use and transportation strategy and also identifies infrastructure investment priorities to co-ordinate the phased delivery of strategic development sites in tandem with key public transport projects including MetroLink, DART and Luas expansion, and BusConnects.

The Dublin SPA and the Dublin MASP each has a committee, which provides a forum for elected members, including council and regional assembly members, to advance priorities and polices specific to each SPA. The governance structure for the MASP also comprises an implementation group, which includes stakeholders from infrastructure and enterprise agencies, local authorities and the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, with the objective of overseeing and driving delivery of the MASP.

In addition, a number of statutory mechanisms are in place that support delivery across the Dublin metropolitan area. The regional assembly has a statutory oversight function ensuring consistency, under section 27 of the Planning and Development Act 2000, as amended, regarding, as everyone in the room is aware, the preparation and making of draft development plans and variations to those plans. In this regard, EMRA works quite closely with local authorities in the preparation of city and county development plans, both formally by way of statutory submissions and informally through the executive. Section 25A of the Act requires that Departments and each local authority prepare and submit a report to the assembly every two years setting out progress made in supporting the objectives of the RSES. These reports form the basis of a monitoring report prepared by the regional assembly, detailing progress made in implementing the objectives of the RSES. The monitoring report is then submitted to the National Oversight and Audit Commission, NOAC. For the benefit of the committee, and as previously highlighted to it by the regional assemblies as part of the pre-legislative scrutiny of the draft planning and development Bill 2022, it should be noted that both of these statutory provisions are currently proposed for removal from the new planning Act.

While the foregoing might seem long-winded, it was important to set the scene for our views on the recommendations of the citizens' assembly report. We would like to bring certain suggestions to the committee's attention for further consideration. On the devolved powers to the directly elected mayor, it should be considered how the functions of the directly elected mayor will complement the regional assembly's role and functions. When considering this, the committee should have regard to the role and statutory functions of the regional assembly, including the RSES, the MASP, our oversight of county development plans and local economic community plans, the MASP committee and implementation group, the delivery of monitoring reports, and our functions associated with regional enterprise plans and the climate action plan. The committee should also consider whether it needs to establish any necessary monitoring and reporting obligations on the directly elected mayor to EMRA, similar to other Departments.

Consideration should be given as to how the proposed Dublin city and county assembly will interact with the regional assembly, including how it will sit alongside and interact with the existing governance arrangements around the MASP, its associated committees and groups, and the functional city-region approach that EMRA has employed in this respect. The committee should consider whether members of the Dublin city and county assembly will be represented on the regional assembly. In this respect, consideration should be given to balance on the assembly. Currently, Dublin City Council nominates seven members, Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown, south Dublin, Fingal, Meath, Kildare and Wicklow councils each nominate three, while the remaining local authorities each nominate two.

On the role and resourcing of councillors, recommendation 13 states that councillors should be made full time and be provided with full-time salaries and secretarial support. As mentioned, EMRA is comprised of members from 12 local authorities, eight of which are outside of County Dublin. Consideration should be given as to how this proposal might result in a two-tier system of elected members within the regional assembly and how it functions.

I will make a final point, if the Cathaoirleach will indulge me, that was not in my written statement. The committee should also consider how the directly elected mayor will interact with the Irish delegation to the Committee of the Regions, whether they will be eligible for membership and, again, the impact this two-tier membership would have on our delegation.

There is a lot of work in meshing a new office with existing structures. If the committee has any further questions or wishes to engage, we are happy to do so.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I thank all the witnesses. I am particularly struck by Mr. Ward's contribution that, in some ways, they are speculating on what might happen in future. We want to try to get insight from the representatives in the context of their current roles, but we appreciate there is a degree of speculation as to what might come.

I remind members that this is not an opportunity for them to reprise their best performances at area committee meetings. We will try to focus as much as we can on the issue of a directly elected mayor. That is the reason the witnesses are with us. I will try to restrict the conversation to that and will not allow us to stray too much into any other area, such as housing delivery and so on. We have plenty of opportunities to ask the witnesses those questions.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

I thank all the witnesses for attending. We appreciate their time and the work they and their organisations do on a daily basis for the Dublin region.

I am a big fan of the idea of a directly elected mayor. I lived in New York city for eight years and saw at first hand how a directly elected representative of the people can have a real impact on the delivery of services and the quality of life in a big city. Ed Koch championed the regeneration of New York, Giuliani focused on the safety of the city, and Bloomberg expanded the city into Brooklyn and the other boroughs. I am a big fan of it but I have real concerns, most of which the representatives have articulated or at least called out. We are talking about making a potentially seismic change to how local government is delivered. There is a huge appetite among the public in Dublin for a significant change in energy. I say "change" but I am cautious because a huge value is placed on the local authorities and their brand, including Dublin City Council and the councils in Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown, south Dublin and Fingal. People identify with them and I agree with the suggestion that we need to retain those local identities.

If we were to ask people in Dublin city today what two big issues they would like to see changed, if there was a directly elected mayor, they would probably say the streets, including their cleanliness and safety, and affordable housing. In their roles, what do the representatives think are the challenges a directly elected mayor would face in trying to address either of those two distinct issues? Is there scope and opportunity for a directly elected mayor to be able to make changes on those two quality-of-life issues for people in the Dublin region? Maybe we will start with Ms Feeney, as I appreciate her remit is regional, and then come to the local authorities.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

As there is only three and a half minutes, we will try to keep the answers tight.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

We have second rounds.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Yes, but just for the answers.

Ms Kate Feeney

I will be very quick. It is a regional remit but the problems regionally will be similar to those locally. It will all depend on how we decide to fund the office of the directly elected mayor. We already have powers that are devolved regionally and locally but, typically, we are still going to central government to look for money. The decisions on where the money is spent are still being made centrally. To answer the question, and to be as quick as I can, the impact the mayor will have will be very dependent on how the office is funded.

Mr. Richard Shakespeare

On the cleanliness issue, a very visible head can drive particular agendas, which is not to say that the executive and councillors do not do so at present. It is partly about resourcing, modernisation and that whole transformation, and the use of technology to try to improve the service.

On affordability, the individual must have the powers to borrow money. Affordability requires subsidy at the moment through the Department's various schemes. That is possible, but the office would need to be properly resourced or have the ability to go down that road to make it quicker. We are at one end of it, the Department is at the other, and a whole range of steps have to be gone through for approval. If approval could be expedited, it would lead to better outcomes.

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

A standardisation of approach across Dublin city and county may help as regards standards of service, including street cleaning, but I caution that place is important as well. There are very different situations in respect of urban, suburban and rural, depending on the location.

Standardisation perhaps could be better achieved with a directly elected mayor, but with some caution as to the level of improvement that could be achieved.

On affordability, there is already close co-operation at a Dublin city and regional level about housing delivery. There is joint procurement in certain instances and other things. The issue of considering the potential for housing supply on various housing sites is always worth consideration at a standard level, as well as understanding what would unlock individual sites, irrespective of location.

Mr. Colm Ward

Regarding safety and the quality of life in the public realm, resources have not been an issue. Irrespective of the structure that manages delivery of and oversees those services, it will still require staffing, which is a challenge for all local authorities. The engagement with the contractor is necessary as well. Whatever level the decision-making is at, it will still encounter those operational issues, so it is important to figure that out.

I second the point made on affordable housing and the funding mechanisms. They are there, as are the structures and willingness. There is an awful lot of affordable housing delivery in the pipeline that will start translating into homes on the ground for people. However, the challenge is whether they will be impacted by a directly elected mayor overseeing it or not. It is questionable.

Mr. Frank Curran

I agree with that point. If there were one directly elected mayor setting various priorities, that would definitely help and guide policy. However, it goes back to the same issue – how much power do they have? Do they have power and control over affordable housing, the subsidies and the policies, and can they change that? Similarly, on public realm, we get a lot of funding now from the NTA, for instance, for enhancing the public realm and what happens right around the entire city. Does that power and do those functions go to the directly elected mayor who can influence that directly? That remains to be seen.

Deputy Emer Higgins

I thank the witnesses for being here and sharing their expertise with us. It is disappointing we do not have any of the cathaoirligh or mayors of any of the four local authorities with us. If this goes ahead, it will have a huge impact on local democracy, local councillors and the offices of mayor and cathaoirleach. Unfortunately, they are not here to provide us with any insights from their perspective. Decisions are made by those who show up, as elected politicians will be aware. It kind of boils down to Councillor Feeney to represent councillors, so I thank her for being here.

Regarding the local authorities, the budgets and the resources are the big issues. As it is, there is a massive, exhaustive list as to what the new potential office for the directly elected mayor would have responsibility for. If that were to go ahead and be implemented as is, what impact would that have on staffing – not just in terms of budgets but people? Would people end up moving from one office to another, from one local authority to another office, or would they stay as is in their local authorities?

I agree with what Councillor Feeney said on the full-time position. It would be brilliant to see county councillors across country come in on a full-time position. However, I do not know that it would be deemed as fair if councillors in Dublin are full time but councillors outside of Dublin are not. What is Councillor Feeney’s perspective on that?

Recommendation No. 2 is around revenue, borrowing and the ability for the directly elected mayor to raise new taxes. What do the chief executives think their role would be in terms of advising and budgetary oversight on that? Ms Farrelly called out and made the point very well that we would need adequate representation from each local authority in the cabinet, not just on a d’Hondt political system. How would that cabinet interact with local authorities? Say there is, whatever the term may be, a Dublin mayor of transport. Will they then meet with each director responsible? What does that look like in a practical sense?

Mr. Ward made a good point on the plebiscite and the need to be clear with the public as to what we are asking them to vote on. Is a menu of options a better way of doing it than a simple "Yes" or "No"?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Much of that was directed to Councillor Feeney. She may start and then we will allow the others in.

Ms Karen Feeney

On full-time councillors, the struggles of recruitment and retention within the councillor end of local government have been well aired before this committee on numerous occasions. I am very supportive of the idea of office of the directly elected mayor but it cannot just sit on top of what we have. We have to look at everything that goes around it and there will have to be changes to the broader system. Looking at how that works, the Council of Europe Congress of Local and Regional Authorities has a draft report on the Irish system. I note the Leas-Chathaoirleach fed into that and met them when they were here, and I met them on behalf of the regional assemblies. There are some good recommendations in that report about strengthening Ireland’s local and regional government system. When looking at the directly elected mayor and how that will ripple out on the broader local government system and regional assembly system, the report and its recommendations should be looked at.

I would be very hesitant to create two tiers of councillors. I have always been a proponent of councillors being full time, but that is a decision for members.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Who does the Deputy wish to direct her question to?

Deputy Emer Higgins

Each chief executive, if I have enough time, on budget, resources and staffing.

Mr. Frank Curran

On staffing, if all these powers come to the directly elected mayor and the councillors, more staff will be needed than are currently there. We are talking about police, education, health, etc.

Deputy Emer Higgins

New staff.

Mr. Frank Curran

Yes, more staff would be required. There is difficulty, as the Deputy knows, in recruitment and retention. However, I could not see staff moving. I think more staff would be required because of the extra responsibilities.

On budgeting, I presume chief executives would still be the Accounting Officers. We have responsibility for budgetary control as it is. Even in the current set-up, we just advise. We always prepare a balanced budget but, ultimately, it is the councillors and elected members who decide on the budget and how it is to be divided up. I think that is it.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Anybody else? I am conscious that getting to all four witnesses for each question will take time, but I am happy to do that.

Mr. Colm Ward

I will be brief. On the availability of the mayor, the Leas-Chathaoirleach, as former Lord Mayor of Dublin, will appreciate that diaries are set in advance and the notice was reasonably short. Apologies from Mayor Alan Edge from South Dublin because he could not be here due to his other commitments.

Deputy Higgins mentioned the plebiscite, which I mentioned in my opening statement. A binary option, for example, “Are you in favour of a directly elected mayor?”, will lead to a whole can of worms being opened. Being clear on the options and what they will mean insofar as possible is something I would highly endorse.

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

On staffing, it is not clear. The mayor might have responsibility for education but might not be the employer of schoolteachers, for example. Again, that would all have to be worked out.

On how the cabinet interacts with the rest of the structures, it is unclear what the cabinet will be and what powers it will have. For example, will it have decision-making powers over and above the local council? On the one hand, it is another level. What does it do and why is it there? On the other hand, if it is there, what powers will it have?

On borrowing and financing, there is a slight nervousness that the borrowing might be for one location but have a consequence for the entire Dublin city and county. How would the funding work across all of the areas as against the current situation, where if Fingal borrows, it borrows for Fingal? That is also something that would need to be looked at. The mayor, without funding or revenue-raising powers, will not work, so I totally appreciate that there is an element of work there to understand how it could work in the future.

Mr. Richard Shakespeare

I echo what Ms Farrelly said. You cannot govern if you cannot raise taxes. I think that is universally recognised.

On the functions and staffing, much of it depends on what functions are actually taken on. What if all of the functions proposed are taken? As previous speakers said, are we the employer or not? Will there nominally be regionalised structures in An Garda Síochána or whatever other agency, such as the NTA, where the Dublin transportation office could be reinstated?

The money needs to follow the people and the function. There is no point in transferring a load of functions when somebody else is controlling the purse strings.

Deputy Francis Noel Duffy

I thank the witnesses for their wisdom and insight. Having been a councillor, Deputy and member of the regional assembly, I am very grateful for the work our local authorities do. They make our communities better places to live in and I am well aware it is a difficult job.

I have various questions based on the information the witnesses have given us, relative to funding, functions and powers. When I was a councillor and on the regional assembly, I found public representatives had limited powers. That is mainly because we were part-time workers, endeavouring to represent constituents. I will have a question at the end of this. I say this respectfully. Currently, we have four powerful chief executives who have seven-year terms and executive powers, whereas mayors only have a one-year term to deliver policy revision. Would a directly elected mayor have a unifying purpose for Dublin, driving transport, housing, education and health, as happens in other cities? I understand all the complications of another layer. Currently we do not have somebody who represents the city. Is that something we should have in that context?

Mr. Richard Shakespeare

Fundamentally, yes. As other speakers have said, it would bring some coherence to the Dublin region, to call it that. Much of the time when people talk about Dublin, they forget about Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown, South Dublin and Fingal. I do not see why it would not have a unifying impact. However, it all depends on the powers that are vested in the areas the Deputy has described. It has a great opportunity, but if it is not properly resourced, I do not think it will go anywhere.

Mr. Frank Curran

I think we can all agree with that. One voice, one representative calling out the issues that face Dublin and representing the entire city is worthwhile. It really needs to come with power and with the budgets associated with all the areas we mentioned to have any real impact. It all depends on that.

Ms Kate Feeney

I agree with the previous statements. It does not just have a unifying voice here at home, but it also has a unifying voice for Dublin externally. For those who are members of the European Committee of the Regions, when we go to our meeting, we meet mayors from bigger cities and sometimes from smaller cities, but they have offices, supports and powers behind them that we do not have. They are engaging with people and attracting investment to their areas. A unifying voice does not just benefit us domestically but also has international benefits.

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

As other speakers have said, a unifying voice that could speak for the Dublin area would absolutely have benefits. However, it needs to have power to actually deliver. That is the key piece of work.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

I thank all the witnesses who have come in. I add my voice in complimenting the very valuable work the four Dublin local authorities do in communities. I see at every day and every week. There is huge commitment from all the staff.

I have a separate question for each chief executive and it would be useful if Ms Feeney wished to comment after that. Ms Farrelly spoke about the need to get buy-in from Government and State agencies. How can that be achieved? If there is resistance to that, it will make an already difficult and complex process even more difficult and complex. What is the best way for that to happen?

Mr. Shakespeare talked about needing detailed information on proposed powers and structures for the public when holding a plebiscite. That needs to be clear and unambiguous. Given that the proposals will be evolving if there is a directly elected mayor, presumably the powers may evolve and grow over time. It will not be possible to have much of the work on the detail of the implementation done before the plebiscite because there is so much in it. It will not be done without the support for having a directly elected mayor. How can we get to the point of being able to provide enough information? Where do we draw the line on that? What is a sufficient amount of information to allow that plebiscite to go ahead?

Mr. Curran said that Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council deals with 29 different Departments and State agencies. If some of the functions of those State agencies are devolved to a directly elected mayor in Dublin, how does that work? Let us take the example of the National Transport Authority having its functions go to a Dublin transportation office model. If that is under the mayor's office, how does that relate to the four local authorities? Ultimately, if a mayor's office is taking on many of these functions, is a mayor's office sufficient or are we in effect creating an additional authority, another layer? Even if it is not called another authority, it would need significant resources, staffing and financing to be able to implement across a number of different areas.

Mr. Ward spoke about the structural changes such as with Irish Water. That has been quite a long process. With this level of structural change, if it happens, how can we manage that in a way that is relatively efficient? When Dublin County Council was broken up into separate local authorities, it took well over ten years to bed in. These kinds of structural changes can produce long-term benefits but can be very disruptive in the short term. I ask the witnesses to comment on that. If there is time, Ms Feeney may also wish to comment.

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

The Deputy's point is well made about how the power transfers. The recommendation is very clear about the powers to be devolved to the directly elected mayor and the local government structures. That includes areas such as healthcare, community and primary education. To have the power, the mayor's office needs to have the staffing and financial resources associated with those new powers. Currently, they do not rest with local government. Whereas a directly elected mayor might speak on them, he or she can do nothing about it if he or she does not have the power with it. It is a tall order to say that education could transfer to a directly elected Dublin mayor. How that would actually work would need much consideration. I already made the point about scale. If it were to transfer, we would be moving to a completely different environment from the structure we have at present which is already of significant scale. For example, Fingal is similar in size to Limerick city and county on its own. If those new areas of responsibility are added to that, it will require an operation of significant scale.

Mr. Richard Shakespeare

Strong engagement with the Electoral Commission will be required in determining how to frame this and what information would be needed so that it is not just a binary "Yes" or "No". The Electoral Commission would be better placed than my colleagues and I would be. As with anything, the case needs to be set out, for and against, to get a balanced view and give people enough information. It does not need to be a tome, but outlining what the realistic impacts might be would be a good start. I suggest that the Electoral Commission needs to be heavily involved in it.

Mr. Colm Ward

Regarding structures, the Deputy spoke about Uisce Éireann and that is just one utility. There are multiple functions involving tiered structures. We need to consider funding, as mentioned earlier, the governance side and the representational side. The engagement on that will be enormous. There is no point in us going into huge detail on it now. Once the terms and the boundaries of the plebiscite are understood, at least we can start getting down to work on what the future structure might look like. It is very speculative, but it is an enormous task based on the range of recommendations for services and functions that would transfer to the mayoral office.

Mr. Frank Curran

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan asked how we deal with the mayor's office. I presume we deal with it in the same way we deal with the likes of the NTA now. It is looking at active travel, BusConnects and taxi regulation across the Dublin region and allocates funding to all of us. If that power is transferred to the mayor, assembly, cabinet and the mayor's office, I presume they will control the budget and we would apply for funding. We would work with them on BusConnects and taxi regulation, and potentially even the delivery of a metro. Is that power really going to transfer from the NTA and Transport Infrastructure Ireland to a mayor? Time will tell. As I say, we work with 29 different agencies as it is so working with a mayor's office would not be a whole lot different.

Ms Kate Feeney

I will come in on a few of those points. There was a question about buy-in and how to achieve it. It is important that the mayor's office will have hard powers. I talked about the MASP earlier. Even though we have that structure, we only have soft power at regional assembly level, which makes it hard to achieve what is written down on paper.

There have been a few questions about the plebiscite and everything in that regard. My view is that we do not need a plebiscite in this instance. I know it is one of the recommendations. I should preface what I say by saying that while I am here as the cathaoirleach of the regional assembly, we do not have a view on the regional assembly over some of the other proposals. However, if we are looking at Limerick and taking lessons, it achieved nothing but delay in the Limerick case. We have had the citizens' assembly. We are having these discussions now, and the Leas-Chathaoirleach said this is one of three meetings. Any legislation that comes forward will go through pre-legislative scrutiny and through these Houses before it is published. What is more important here is to get the legislation right to ensure is it robust and that the mayor's office fits in with all of the other structures. We must also manage expectations as to what the mayor's office will be able to do. There is a risk, and we will see it in Limerick, with a public plebiscite. People think that the structures will change overnight. As was said earlier, it took ten years for the Dublin structures to bed in and this will take probably as long. What is more important than the plebiscite, which to me is a delaying tactic, is to get the legislation right.

Senator Rebecca Moynihan

I thank the chief executives for coming to the meeting. One thing that keeps coming through is the need for the directly elected mayor to have the power to raise revenues. That is in the citizens' assembly's recommendations report. We are not tasked with going back over the conclusions to which the citizens' assembly came but rather asking how they can be implemented. When I look at the citizens' assembly report and see the breadth of powers it has recommended are given to a mayor, I think it is unfair to ask one person to do that. Large Departments are in charge of all of these areas. I am interested, in particular, in the power that chief executives currently have and think could be realistically devolved in a relatively short time to a directly elected mayor. How would that be done, if they were willing? I also ask Councillor Feeney for her view from a regional level and from her experience as a councillor. If she were to pick one particular area, how could that power be devolved easily to a directly elected mayor? I worry at the example of Irish Water, for example, which took so long to bed in and to be transferred over to local authorities. There are other areas, such as street cleaning. Transport is a key area, particularly in Dublin. Integration of the transport networks across the four local authorities is important.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

That is a direct question. I will allow any of the chief executives to come in. What powers will they give away?

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

The powers are given to us and we implement the ones we have. It is a matter for the legislative piece to decide which powers could go to a directly elected mayor. I do not think it is about the chief executives; it is about the local authorities and the best way of achieving what they need to achieve. It is a matter of streamlining the system and giving the mayor the power to deliver for Dublin city and county in a way that allows for the operational piece to be dealt with efficiently, whether that is by a chief executive or an equivalent that is yet to be decided.

Mr. Colm Ward

I will make a brief point. Strategic leadership in respect of climate action is a good example. The local authorities are working well together. We launched four draft climate actions plans in the Mansion House the other day. There is no reason there could not be further unity. That is a specific example.

Ms Kate Feeney

The Senator asked about power devolution and which powers might be easiest to devolve. I keep coming back to the point that it all depends on how we are fitting the office into the overall structure. In respect of the powers we have at the moment, there is a national plan, a regional plan and a local plan. By the time the local plan gets to executive level, there is very little tinkering around the edges. By the time it gets to elected member level, someone might be able to add a comma. It is about where the office will fit into the structure.

I will take the example of transport that the Senator mentioned. If we are looking at the staggering of the devolution of powers, we should in the early days transfer one responsibility that is visible and will allow the directly elected mayor to have a quick and visible win. I sat at a meeting not long ago for the Covenant of Mayors, which is a climate action covenant of mayors from across Europe. I was sitting with colleagues who were talking about how they had recently made the decision to electrify their full public transport fleet. I was sitting there and thinking about what I could learn and bring back to the Eastern and Midland Regional Assembly, EMRA, and Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council. Things such as that are far beyond our remit. It is about giving the directly elected mayor something visible. The key is devolving hard power. That is the key.

Mr. Richard Shakespeare

There are the policy and operational pieces. The chief executive almost ends up becoming a chief of staff who might be appointed as part of an external process, as is the case at the moment, or the case may be that mayor brings a chief of staff with him or her. It is probably better that such a person comes from within the sector because trying to get things done in large organisations is difficult enough if you do not know where you are going. It is in the area of the operational stuff, the day-to-day piece, the rudimentary management and leadership of the workforce and policy direction. There is also the voice. We should not underestimate the power of the voice of the mayor on policy. He or she can set out an agenda and it would then be up to the executive to deliver. It is a bit like the development plan, which, as we know, is an iterative process. There would probably be a tighter focus than in a city-wide development plan.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I sympathise with the witnesses. Looking at the report, I was a little disappointed when I got the recommendations of the citizens' assembly because I expected it to be more detailed, complex and thought-out. That is one of the challenges. All of us are, or have been, practitioners in the local government space and understand the ether. It is difficult for people who are outside to understand all the complexities. There are recommendations that primary and community healthcare and primary and secondary education should be devolved to the directly elected mayor. Even the Department of Education does not run education completely. Schools are all devolved and have separate legal identities and so on. I was disappointed with those recommendations.

Let us take, for example, traffic. The difference between this and the Limerick Bill is that this is a metro mayor and involves multiple local authorities. I agree with Ms Farrelly that we should retain those identities. I wonder how it might work. Instead of the arrangement being like that of a Secretary General and a Minister, the situation would be that there would be the directly elected mayor and the director of traffic from each of the four local authorities. How do the witnesses anticipate that working? What role would the chief executive have in that relationship? In that specific area of traffic, will our guests talk about some of the concerns they have about the local authorities connecting with the directly elected mayor in respect of stuff for which the local authorities are already responsible?

Mr. Frank Curran

It would have to be something like the old Dublin Transportation Office, which is now part of the mayor's office. The mayor would have a staff that would effectively be running transport and traffic in the city, including for active travel, Bus Connects, taxi regulation and the delivery of the likes of a metro network. The mayor would be co-ordinating all of that and would have the budget for it. We would work as we normally work by implementing the policy on the ground.

We would get funding for active travel schemes, which we roll out continuously. We would assist regarding BusConnects, the routes, and how the system would work. The same would apply to major infrastructure. However, that would involve a major change and a major loss of NTA control, power and money, the NTA being just one organisation.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

It would appear that it is proposed that the existing traffic budgets would remain with each of the four local authorities. How could directly-elected mayors make decisions on budgets that are held by the different local councils without reference to the councils, for example?

Mr. Frank Curran

They could make decisions on policy. There would be constant interaction between the local authorities, the mayors and the assembly, and possibly the Cabinet member responsible for transport. There would have to be a policy side and also a budget aspect.

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

On cycling networks, the priority of delivery is agreed between the local authorities and the NTA at present. The overview of what is happening in the Dublin region is under the NTA, such that there is a synchronised programme when the cycle lanes meet, so to speak. This task is carried out by the NTA and the money transfers to local authorities for delivery. I presume it would transfer to the mayor's office for delivery, but, again, it would come from the Government to the mayor's office as opposed to from the Government to the NTA to the local authorities. That might be the way it would work. However, regarding the outcome in terms of a synchronised programme for Dublin, the mayor would have good control over exactly what happens and when.

Mr. Richard Shakespeare

It is really about the politics of policy and strategy in terms of being able to convince a mayoral office. While the office might have an overarching policy, any policy needs to come from the ground up, and that should involve the four entities. That involves the power of persuasion – all the things that politics is involved in.

Ms Kate Feeney

Reference was made to the expanse of the powers to be devolved. When reading through the report, it is interesting to note that the cities taken as examples are in countries with strong regional structures. These are not central powers but powers that are already regionally devolved. It makes sense in these instances to further devolve the powers to cities but this would not necessarily sit comfortably within the Irish structure. That is just something to keep in the back of one's mind.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

May I comment on the issue of cathaoirligh not being present? I agree with Deputy Higgins that cathaoirligh can often go further than chief executives might because they have a mandate. Part of the difficulty with their not being present is echoed in the current challenges of the office. The role is highly ceremonial and very much driven by community events and so on. One would not want to see that lost. Could the delegates comment on the community work done by local authorities that is often unheralded and often led by mayors?

I would imagine that none of those concerned feels he or she has a very strong mandate to speak one way or another on the issue of the directly-elected mayor, and that speaks to the weakness of our current local government system.

I have a specific question for Ms Feeney on the issue of the community and the role of the mayor in respect of the local authorities. Councillor Feeney has the challenge of getting councillors to think outside their wards. If councillors are elected by one very small part of the city, is there a challenge in getting them to act on a citywide level or even to contribute their own time and resources? Anybody may contribute on the community aspect.

Mr. Richard Shakespeare

Every cathaoirleach, mayor or Lord Mayor will have his or her own agenda. It is important that this be maintained because it makes things hyper-local regarding the citizens he or she represents. It is a matter of two or three things every year. In his time, the Leas-Chathaoirleach would have focused on specific issues, whereas the current Lord Mayor is very focused on neurodiversity and having a happy city. That should not be lost. The connection is really important.

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

I am disappointed that there is a recommendation not to continue. The role of the representative at local level, close to the local property taxpayers and ratepayers, is really important and very valued at local level. I would not underestimate its value for democracy. While a higher-level role is really important to represent the region and city, the role of the locally elected representative is crucial. The mayor has this at the moment.

Mr. Colm Ward

I wish to reiterate what has been said. One is talking about introducing a strategic layer of influence with the directly elected mayor responsible for a region rather than the individual local authorities. The community work and community development work of local authorities is key work – the work that means most to communities. In the statement, I mentioned coming from an area that has had to overcome the challenges of the past. Anything that reverses this trend and local connectivity is to be railed against.

Mr. Frank Curran

Last week in Dún Laoghaire, we had what I call the Tidy Districts awards. It entails people involved in the Tidy Towns groups initially but also people involved in biodiversity and various groups that do a huge amount of voluntary work right throughout the county. The awards recognise these people and are run by the cathaoirleach. Similarly, there are cathaoirleach's awards every year. They are really appreciated. Gardaí were in last year and people involved in education in the county have been in. Again, it involves people on the ground. It is good for the cathaoirleach to do this, and it generates a profile. I certainly would not like to see that go.

Ms Kate Feeney

There is a huge community aspect to local politics. When we are at all the community events, we normally meet new guys at them. This goes right up the electoral system. I would not envy a directly-elected mayor the task of trying to make his or her way to community events right across the expanse of the county.

On thinking outside the box and representing areas other than one's own, we do this at the regional assembly all the time. When we were considering the RSES and the division of population growth between different counties – there are representatives from 12 counties – the debate on the population figures was the debate that stood out for me. It was probably the fieriest of all the debates. No more than in the Houses of the Oireachtas, there are those who will put forward the view of their county. There might be two conflicting counties or, in this instance, two conflicting villages within Dublin. The other members will sit back, listen to the debate and vote for the right thing. Therefore, you will generally get to the right result, so I would not be overly concerned about that.

I would have concerns about the time and resources of councillors, however, particularly if the job is going to get harder and take up more time. There are recommendations in the report. I have said to committee members that they should examine the report from the Congress of Local and Regional Authorities. We are struggling to keep people, including young women, in local government, as is well known, so we need to make sure that when we are doing what is proposed, we are strengthening the resources already in place.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

We will proceed to the second round, beginning with Deputy Higgins.

Deputy Emer Higgins

I might return to the issue of staffing because I got some different perspectives on it. Mr. Curran seemed to say new staff would be required to staff the mayor's office so it could carry out the various new functions it will be getting. Mr. Shakespeare, if I got him right, made the point that it was likely that staff would need to follow the budget. Could I tease that out a little more? All of us as public representatives rely on the commitment and hard work of staff in local authorities. I am keen to understand how the proposal will affect them.

Mr. Frank Curran

The problem is that it is not really clear. The reference is to the powers devolved to a directly-elected mayor and local government structures. We need to know where the money and functions are going, and this will determine where the staff will go. Based on the recommendations, the mayor's office will need many staff if it is to get all the powers in question. If some of the powers are going directly to local government, that is where the staff and resources will have to go. The way it is written, it is hard to tie it down.

Mr. Richard Shakespeare

You cannot devolve a function and not devolve the staff and budget. Without devolving these, it is pointless.

We might say to give the lord mayor all of the functions but do not give him or her staff or the budget and nothing happens. That is the key to it. It is as if form follows function or function follows form. If it does not work through, I do not see how it will work at all.

Deputy Emer Higgins

Is anybody else coming in on that? No. My next question probably follows on from Senator Moynihan's contribution. She very much stated that the recommendations are the recommendations and it is not necessarily up to us as a committee to reinvent them but it is more to figure out how to implement them. I have a friend who sat on the Dublin citizens' assembly who I think would very much share that view. I am a little concerned because I really want the Dublin lord mayor to work. When we look at all of the functions due to be devolved in the current set of recommendations, I am concerned it might not work. It is quite a lot and the budgets and staffing still have to be figured out in terms of how we could make it work. If the recommendations as they are were implemented what would that look like for the witnesses' local authorities? What impact would that have on current budgets?

We talked a little about staff. What impact would that have on local representatives in terms of the reserved functions they currently have? We have touched a little as well on the impact it may have on the community. I know South Dublin County Council does amazing work in terms of the community recognition awards. It has constant community initiative grants. Would things like that change as well under the current set of recommendations?

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

As I mentioned, our current revenue budget is in excess of €2 billion for Dublin city and county.

Deputy Emer Higgins

Minus housing, homelessness and economic infrastructure.

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

If we were to take on healthcare and education, we are talking about multiples of multiples, even of the operational budget not to mention the infrastructure budget that would be needed.

Deputy Emer Higgins

Do other witnesses feel similarly? There are a lot of nodding heads. Will Ms Feeney speak about what impact it would have on existing public representatives?

Ms Kate Feeney

I am conscious I am here from the regional aspect, but from that aspect we would want to ensure our regional strategies are still being complied with so for any powers that are being devolved, that the regional structures and strategies are still being respected. The question would arise then as to whether the regional assembly would still have oversight of consistency with regional strategies.

From a local councillor's perspective, albeit that is not really the hat I am wearing today, where both the report and the recommendations are silent is on the powers that would remain with local councillors. There is a piece in there about the cathaoirleach staying on in a ceremonial position but if planning will go to the directly elected mayor, will councillors be still involved in the drafting of city and council development plans? It is one of the few powers we have. Our local community and economic plans are some of the few powers we have. The recommendations are silent on it. There is a devolution of power to the mayor. The recommendations not talk about what happens to the powers that are already at the lower tier. Will they go up to the mayor's office also? It is hard to comment when there is no recommendation specifically dealing with it.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Senator Fitzpatrick is next and then Deputy Cian O'Callaghan. We should conclude after that.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

One of my questions was going to be on the revenue and the costs, which is an impossible question for any of us to even attempt to answer without knowing what the actual role will be. The enormity of ambition is undermined by the actual practicalities of trying to do this. Ms Feeney made a very interesting suggestion that there is not actually a need for a plebiscite. Following that pattern of thought, is there an argument that we should consider that in trying to introduce a directly elected mayor to Dublin, we should do it on a phased basis and maybe one local authority to start with and use that experience to define the role, responsibilities, and the budget? Limerick has a population of approximately 200,000. Is there an argument to be made to start with Dublin city, for the sake of argument, and over a ten-year period, establish a directly elected mayor, define the role, devolve the responsibilities, assign the budget, and give the powers? If that model can be established and proven, then there is a model that can be replicated. Would Ms Feeney come back on that?

Ms Kate Feeney

The Senator is asking questions above my pay grade.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

We are doing that with everybody, to be fair.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

More than anything, we are just looking for informed views. None of us has the answers to all of this.

Ms Kate Feeney

I suppose the report and the recommendations already veer towards the fact that this will be done on a phased basis. They were not thinking about geographical phasing but about phasing the devolution, so that it would not all go at once. Certainly if there is merit in phasing the devolution of power, there is also merit in geographical phasing. Ultimately, it probably makes it a little easier to manage. My opinion is that one is potentially risking people feeling left out of the process or if it is not as successful as we hope, people in Fingal may say they do not want to buy into that and they are happy to stay out on their own. My opinion is that there are pros and cons to it.

Mr. Richard Shakespeare

It would fundamentally undermine the notion of a Dublin region. Where a lot of the mayoral projects work is where there is a big enough agglomeration of people, land and all the bits and pieces for it to function effectively. As Ms Feeney said, if we wait to try it out in say Dublin city or Dún Laoghaire or wherever, others will look at it and try to slow it down because people like to retain a level of control.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

Yes, okay.

Mr. Colm Ward

It would take generations to get to where it is envisaged in the report if we start carving it up like that. There is a certain merit and logic to it, but I do not think we will get to where we are looking to go just based on the report and the recommendations within it. I do not know how many generations of politicians and officials-----

Mr. Frank Curran

We are public servants and we will work with whatever system comes from the Government but the point everybody made at the start of having one representative voice for the entire city would be lost immediately.

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

Similarly, it is either a mayor or it is not. The issue is what is phased. Certainly delivery of all of those new services within the five years that is in the recommendation seems like a big ask but if the new mayor does not have responsibility for transportation, why have it at all? It is a matter of mapping that out and seeing how it could best work and be deliverable, or something is deliverable quickly.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

I want to ask a question on that very point. I appreciate what the witnesses said that they will work with what they are given but we very much want their views on what would be the best framework to be given. Looking at the report, the key part of the recommendations is the devolved powers. That is the really important part. There is a lack of detail in that even for the Electoral Commission to be able to explain in a plebiscite in an outline what the role of the major would be about. It would need to have some information about those devolved powers and how they might be implemented. I do not think anyone would realistically think that in five years, all of these powers, in any shape or form, would be devolved. Some people may feel that in the long term it would be nice to have all of these devolved. There may not be agreement on that either and some people may feel some of the powers should never be devolved or whatever. That is the question I want to get at.

Out of these, which ones does Mr. Ward think jump out as the most important ones to be devolved first or quickest, if one is looking at this as a potentially strategic - and that word has been used - layer of influence for Dublin as a region? What are the areas that will be most important in that?

For this to proceed, there will have to be some sort of division of these, at least into short term and long term, or short, medium and long term, to make it manageable, or some sort of mapping out around that. Related to that is the question of devolving these. We will use the transport example. The National Transport Authority could end up having the equivalent of the Dublin Transportation Office in a Dublin mayor's office. It would have budget and oversight, and the implementation would then still be with the local authorities or the transport providers. Are there any areas here that jump out? For a Dublin mayor's office, and for the Dublin region, should it not be budget and implementation rather than just budget and oversight or does Mr. Ward feel that all of these should just be budget and oversight, and then implementation be left to the four existing local authorities or other bodies?

Mr. Colm Ward

There is a table in the report that outlines 21 different areas of responsibility, and the views of the citizens' assembly with regard to the timeframes for delivery, and the percentages that people thought could be delivered within five years. It starts with housing, and is followed by homelessness. Transport is way down the pecking order so it gives the Deputy some sense of the challenges in even defining it. I would say that strategic housing delivery, and the influence and pushing of that, is really important. It is done on a regional basis anyway and could reasonably be ceded to a mayor quite quickly with regard to the influence of it, and the delivery and implementation of it at local level.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

So budget and oversight, with a directly-elected mayor?

Mr. Colm Ward

For certain elements of housing, absolutely. I do not think the intent of the poll taken at the citizens' assembly was for all aspects of housing management. It could quickly be carved up into the really strategic housing delivery and then, at a certain level, go to a regional structure. There is a template there that one could start picking through fairly quickly, analyse the priorities as identified, and see what is really feasible to deliver. A lot of them are delivered on a national basis. We engage regionally with those national agencies to do it as well. It would involve a template of taking from some of those national agencies to work regionally with us but there is a matrix there that is worth considering.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

Mr. Ward made an interesting point that transportation is quite far down that list yet for those of us who have been closer to or involved in local government, transportation seems like a very obvious area. One can understand it is not necessarily the highest priority for the general public at the moment. Housing is of course the highest priority, but are there areas like that which jump out and perhaps merit being a bit more of a priority in being incorporated under a directly-elected mayor?

Mr. Colm Ward

On that, there is an anomaly in that transport is at 50% to be deliverable within the first five years, so that is way down the list but infrastructure, roads and footpaths is at 76%. Nobody wants to see a directly-elected mayor with responsibility for footpaths. The infrastructure element of that is probably somebody ticking that box rather than transport, so we are all agreed on the importance of transport regionally.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

They might do a better job of it anyway.

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

I think one needs to take the areas proposed to transfer and look at the interdependency. What is the interreliance at a Dublin level, and what areas connect up? Transport is a very broad term. Someone mentioned traffic earlier, and street cleanliness. One needs to pick out from within those areas of responsibility what is better done at a Dublin city and regional level. There is a world of difference in scale between transport and the night-time economy. One is looking at being more precise about what the mayor should do for transport, policing and education, rather than the broad stroke of saying everything to do with education transfers over. For example, for education, it might be to do with the provision of schools in Dublin city and county, and where those sites should be to meet the growing population. There might be distinct powers within those subject areas that could transfer quickly.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

Would that be like taking some of the responsibility from the Department of Education and some of the responsibility that currently sits with local authorities and meeting that midway? How does something like that work?

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

This is a personal view but I do not see any merit in schoolteachers working for a local authority. I will name that. If a local authority is developing its area, and in this case it will be the four of us, there will be a need to understand where the future school provision will come from. There is a power that could go to a mayor but the actual day-to-day operation of schools would not.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

Effectively, the budget and oversight for school delivery could be with a mayor's office rather than with the Department of Education?

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

Precisely.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

On other aspects of infrastructure, where people feel it can be delayed or slowed in dealing with a national or centralised bureaucracy, having some of those devolved to a Dublin mayor's office could work.

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

One needs a closer look at the areas and to pick out the areas that need that co-ordination.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

Okay, I thank Ms. Farrelly.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I have a final question, and I am not even sure who to direct it to. One area that caused the most debate when we discussed the Local Government (Mayor of Limerick) Bill 2023 at prelegislative scrutiny stage was the issue of impeachment. We do not have a directly-elected executive office in Ireland, and one of the concerns expressed during discussion of the Limerick mayor Bill was that the threshold for impeaching a mayor was quite low. Given our multi-party system, and sometimes the tensions within coalition parties - even within Government - one could have a standoff between local authority members who might feel more liberated by any sort of allegiance to even their own colleagues within that party, and who might vote for impeachment. With the Limerick Bill, the structure is that the council could vote for impeachment and then it goes to the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage to make a final decision on the matter, and it can sit for long periods of time.

On that issue, the witnesses are well used to trying to get consensus in a council chamber. My fear is that issue of impeachment and a standoff between local and national government, or other political points drifting into what often are not council agenda items, would delay and bog down local government in a way that does not happen at the moment. That concept of impeaching the mayor sometimes happens with chief executives in the form of motions of no confidence. It can become very political, even though it is not even about the specific issues. I feel like Ms Feeney is the only one who might be able to answer that.

Ms Kate Feeney

There needs to be a power there. I would not be overly concerned about it being abused, as long as someone is doing a good job. Again, the recommendation gives options. It is either by a super-majority of the councillors or by a public vote. I was trying to double-check as the question was being asked but my understanding at the moment is that each of the councils has the power to sack these guys if it so wishes. It is not something that is abused. It is never something that is used as a threat within the chamber either. We often see motions of no confidence against Government Deputies within the Dáil as well. Potentially it is abused within the Dáil but it is not something that is abused at local government level. The safeguard needs to be there particularly when there is a five-year term. Again, the bar needs to be set so high that it cannot be abused or politicised.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

That completes all our questions. We appreciate the witnesses coming before the committee. It is not in their normal role of being accountable for the day-to-day functions. We always appreciate them commenting on that but we also appreciate them going slightly outside of it to provide their expert views. We will keep them informed of our work as we go through.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.09 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 24 October 2023.