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JOINT COMMITTEE ON INVESTIGATIONS, OVERSIGHT AND PETITIONS debate -
Wednesday, 7 Mar 2012

Public Service Reform Agenda: Discussion

I remind all of those present, including those in the Gallery, that mobile telephones and BlackBerrys must be turned off completely because they interfere with the sound system even when they are on silent. We have received apologies from the Chairman and Deputies Tóibín and Conaghan. Our guests are on the way as we speak.

The first item for discussion at today's meeting is the public service reform agenda. Mr. Paul Reid, the programme director of the reform and delivery office at the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, and Mr. Aidan Timmins, assistant principal officer at the Department, will make a presentation to the committee on the public service reform agenda in the context of the committee's proposed role in public sector oversight.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are about to give the committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

I invite Mr. Reid to address the committee.

Mr. Paul Reid

I thank the committee for the invitation to brief it on public service reform. As our short presentation has been circulated in advance, I will concentrate on three key areas. First, I will set the context in which we are implementing public service reform. Second, I will highlight some of the key aspects of the reform agenda. Without going through it in great detail, I will outline exactly what it is we are trying to do and what success will look like. Third, I will engage in a discussion on the committee's role in public service reform and our subsequent interaction.

I have been in the public service for nearly four months. My background is primarily in the private sector, where I was involved in restructuring complex, large organisations. I am now the programme director of the Department's dedicated office on reform. My colleague, Mr. Timmins, works in the programme office.

When we launched the plan on 17 November, the Minister, Deputy Howlin, outlined how comprehensive it was. It comprises a total of 200 actions, all of which have committed dates and timelines for delivery. Every element of and action within the plan has a dedicated official, owner or manager in the public service. The plan is diligent in terms of having full ownership and accountability for delivery. The governance of the reform plan is strong. For example, I report to a dedicated Cabinet sub-committee on reform on a quarterly basis.

I will briefly highlight some of the environmental factors that affect the reform plan's implementation. Our difficult fiscal position is well known to everyone. We borrow more than €1.25 billion per month to pay for public services, including pensions and payroll. This poses a difficulty in terms of funding the types of reform one would like to implement. Strict targets have been set, in that the deficit to GDP level must be 8.6% by the end of this year and 3% by 2015. In a three-year period, the State's income collapsed by one third. These would be significant factors for any organisation. In the private sector, it would be car crash stuff.

The demands for public services are stronger than ever. There are 500,000 more medical cards than there were in 2007, the level of jobseekers is three times what it was in 2006, there are more pensioners to be paid, there are more prisoners in prison and children are being born at the same rate. When private organisations implement this level of reform, they can choose to cut off some services. This is not an option for the State.

The various levels of reform place significant demands on the system, for example, Croke Park reforms and this programme's strategic reforms. When we launched the reform plan, we wanted to outline what success would look like to the citizen, the person who engaged the State for its services. We highlighted the plan's five key areas, which I will touch on briefly. First, the interaction between citizens and the State will be improved. Second, new ways to deliver services will be considered, for example, the increased use of electronic services. Third, costs in the system will be reduced radically. Fourth, we will organise ourselves differently. Fifth, public criticism of previous reforms probably focused on their execution. The plans may have sufficed, but their implementation may not have been strong enough. We are focusing on this issue. I will highlight the areas in which our delivery is strong.

The reform agenda has three key enablers. First, we have established a dedicated reform and delivery office, which I head and is well staffed. Second, each sector or Department has people who take lead responsibility for their respective elements of the reform agenda. Third, the Croke Park agreement enables some of our strategic reforms.

I will outline some of our progress since launching the plan. We have established a programme office and I recently appointed a shared services manager from the private sector, a person with global experience of implementing shared services. She joined us in recent weeks. We have assigned what we term senior responsible owners. Where one element of the plan cuts across a number of Departments, a senior responsible owner will drive it to its conclusion. We have briefed the Committee of Public Accounts and the Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform. We have also received integrated plans from Departments.

I should have highlighted it on the last slide, but there are two aspects to the reform agenda. First, there are 14 initiatives that cross all Departments. Second, we provide oversight of the sector-specific or Department-specific reforms that they have prioritised. We have established a joint plan and delivery boards for all of these and are making progress on a number of actions.

I will highlight some of the aspects under each category and outline what it is we are trying to do. My slide contains a number of points, although it is not a full list of the actions we are taking to improve the citizen's engagement with the State's services. One example is the public service card, the implementation of which is being led by the Department of Social Protection. A chip-and-pin card, it confirms someone's identity and will eventually support us in implementing a single card for each citizen to engage various State services, be it health or so on. We are considering how to increase the number of online services. Currently, there are approximately 300 services on the portal.

The plan commits to a government-wide measurement system to examine key outcomes, for example, the top three outcomes at departmental level. We will establish a pilot this year before rolling out the system. This process has been used in some other states and organisations. There are also sector-specific service plans. In this regard, health and education are on the front line. In terms of maximising innovative delivery channels, we are finalising a new e-Government strategy which, in essence, will look at what other services we can make available online, how we can utilise high penetration of smart phones to make available more applications in respect of services and the potential for ICT consolidation.

In regard to data sharing in order to reduce costs, we are again looking at the feasibility of utilising data sharing between Departments and putting in place processes and controls around governance in this regard. We are also evaluating how we can make other services available online. During the course of the plan, we will evaluate if we can make the full passport service or an element of it available online. Members may be aware of the "fix your street" initiative which has been rolled out in one area. We are looking at rolling this out further. We are also looking at making other services available online, including partial application of the driving licence. Cloud computing is currently getting a great deal of public attention. We will evaluate the potential use of cloud and in this regard propose to establish a cloud strategy in terms of leveraging public and private cloud during the course of this year.

On costs, the programme for Government commits to an overall reduction in public service numbers from a high of 320,000 in 2008 to 282,500 by 2015. Members will be aware of the reduction in numbers already achieved through the pension scheme process which expired at the end of February last. On procurement, we believe there are further opportunities to leverage the State's purchasing power. The Minister of State, Deputy Brian Hayes, and the OPW are currently calling in top suppliers in terms of securing reduced prices and unit costs from them. We believe the opportunity exists to aggregate more Departments' spend into single framework contracts. We currently have approximately 45 framework contracts with a value of €450 million. We believe an opportunity exists for us to increase the number of centrally controlled framework agreements, thus achieving a better return on expenditure for the citizen.

On our property portfolio, we want to increase our utilisation of Government office space and buildings, to reduce our leasehold expenditure and to free up property and, where and when appropriate, to dispose of non-core property assets. We see opportunities to improve the mandate for the Office of Public Works to have stronger control of the total property portfolio and the facilities management overheads which accompanies that.

On business process improvement, the plan contains a specific commitment to look at some core processes within and across Departments in terms of the elimination of duplication and waste, thus reducing costs. We are also looking at whether we can, through the Croke Park agreement, outsource or use new delivery mechanisms in non-core service areas.

The plan contains a strong commitment to the implementation of new shared services operations models. We have commenced the process with a HR shared service for the Civil Service and are currently evaluating a business case for roll-out of a HR shared service. The plan commits to further shared service across the Civil Service in terms of payroll, pensions, banking, finance and other services. Along with this, each sector is currently developing its own shared services plan.

We are also looking at new governance and performance management of State agencies. Members may be familiar with our plan, which I have touched on, for rationalisation of State agencies. We are also looking at stronger framework agreements between the parent Department and agency and stronger measurement of service level agreements, SLA, between Departments and performance against those measures.

Medium-term expenditure frameworks is a whole new way of developing our budgets. This is more about changing the way we manage budgets. The way we have developed our budgets is a function of an Act of Parliament dating back to 1866. Medium-term expenditure frameworks fundamentally challenge the manner in which budgets are developed, measured and monitored. I will give some examples in this regard later.

Further development of the senior public service is largely around management capability at a senior level, including assistant secretaries and secretaries general across the public and Civil Service, in terms of the skills and competencies required for various roles. Development of a high performance culture is largely about us embedding a stronger performance management culture with the current performance management system in place. Workforce planning has largely come into its own in the context of managing some of the transition arrangements. We recently communicated a workforce planning process to all Departments which sets out the methodology for their examining their core resourcing levels over the next three to five years.

I have already touched on implementation and keeping a strong focus on delivery but I would like to make a few extra points. Oversight is by a dedicated Cabinet committee on reform, which is chaired by the Taoiseach and led by the Minister, Deputy Howlin. There are dedicated change teams in each Department. There is also a dedicated board, which I chair, which meets once a month to review overall reform. We are currently finalising a communications plan to ensure engagement and buy-in by staff in terms of the reforms being implemented. If required, legislation will be introduced to support some elements of the reform.

What we are setting out in public service reform is a significant culture and reorganisation change within the public service. There are three aspects involved which relate largely to how people are managed and their contracts of employment, how we organise people and how we manage expenditure in terms of delivering effective and efficient services. In terms of how we manage people, obviously as a result of public service number reductions we are having to do more with less. There is a commitment in place in terms of an ongoing reduction in numbers. On allowances and overtime, we have sent out a mandate to all Departments in regard to a 10% reduction in overtime for this year. We are currently reviewing all allowances paid across the system. Proposals around which ones should be sustained into the future will be brought to Government. The process of rationalisation of annual leave arrangements is currently under way. Legislation on a new single pensions scheme for all new entrants to the public service will be brought before the Dáil some time in April. I have already touched on the issues of senior management and competencies, skills and workforce planning.

There will be fundamental changes in terms of organisation within and across Departments. Shared services operations is new. Implementation of shared services across 20 to 40 Government and public services will be a challenge. As I mentioned earlier, we have commenced this process through the HR shared service for the Civil Service and are currently evaluating a business case in respect of implementation of this service. We will shortly commence evaluation of shared services in respect of payroll, pensions, finance and banking. External service delivery relates to opportunities to deliver through different methods, including outsourcing non-core processes and the redeployment of people to core work. Restructuring and reorganisation across Departments is ongoing. This year and throughout last year we moved 1,000 people working as community welfare officers from the Department of Health to the Department of Social Protection, and 700 people have also moved from FÁS to the Department of Social Protection to cope with some of the demands. There is an ongoing movement of people within the Civil Service and various public service bodies.

The areas of e-Government and ICT can fundamentally change how we deliver services and we can also examine how to take out some costs through consolidation of data, computer centres and ICT infrastructure. The committee would be familiar with our commitment regarding the rationalisation of State agencies. On 17 November we announced agency numbers to be rationalised, with further bodies to be reviewed before the end of June, and that process is on track. Similarly with regard to decentralisation, a number of projects will be left in situ as sufficient people would have moved. Others have been cancelled and there are others under review. We have completed the majority of that review.

With regard to the handling of expenditure, I will touch on some fundamental changes which have been communicated to Oireachtas committees. The comprehensive review of expenditure was new last year and it set out for Departments a process to identify the core priorities for funding of a Department for the year. It considered priorities based on the programme for Government or what the Department wanted. Multi-annual expenditure frameworks amount to a process to move away from a year-on-year budget expenditure process, which at times can drive dysfunctional behaviours in any organisation, as there may be a larger spend in the last quarter of the year. This would lead to people trying to maintain expenditure levels to sustain a sufficient budget for the following year. The new process allows Departments to consider priorities over a three-year framework. There will be certain needs and requirements to carry forward expenditure based on the agreed programme, with certain thresholds agreed for carry-over of expenditure. That will begin to exert greater control over the process.

The value-for-money code and process is largely about developing a stronger financial and business case process around every level of expenditure, having a methodology and implementing a peer review of agreed expenditure. Performance-based budgeting was communicated just a few weeks ago and with the Revised Estimates, the majority of Departments have identified a number of key output measures. The idea is how to measure the success of that level of expenditure and what will be the key deliverables. I have already touched on property rationalisation and procurement reform.

We have strong governance and discipline with this reform programme. It receives strong engagement across all Departments and has dedicated owners and officials for every action, as I noted earlier. We are accountable and report progress on this to the Cabinet committee on reform. Our plan is primarily focused on cross-cutting initiatives, with sector-specific plans and strong engagement with citizens. There are significant pieces of the plan which aim to improve the engagement with the citizen. We are happy to have this discussion with the committee today with this in mind, although I may not have all the details on some of the services and parts of the plan. We are more than happy, if the committee feels it appropriate, to engage with relevant people and bring them through to the committee.

I ask members to concentrate on questioning aspects of the presentation.

I do not underestimate Mr. Reid's task in coming from the private sector to the public sector. I have worked in the private sector and the comparisons are stark, so I expect Mr. Reid may have got a massive shock when he arrived. With regard to the e-Government policy, many Members have issues with the medical card process. We were told it was centralised to make it more efficient but there is a backlog of over 30,000 applications. For the past 15 years or so, people could book a hotel room in South America over the Internet but with the processing of a simple medical card application, the country seems to have a nervous breakdown.

I was in the insurance business, which moved from people writing certificates manually to automatic printing by offices in a monitored process. We were told at first that could not happen for security reasons. People go online to get house and car insurance, among others, despite the process being complicated because of so many questions. I find it hard to see how a medical card application cannot be done online. I know support information is required but that should be kept to a minimum. With people insuring a car online, an issue concerning the wrong engine size being inputted would only arise if there is a claim. There should be less stringent parameters for medical cards and when a person claims or there is a spot check or audit, there would be accountability.

The required technology exists and if somebody goes online to put in details, with supporting information following in a certain period, the application should be processed and the card provisionally issued. The opposite seems to be true and an application may be held up because one sheet of information has not arrived. Members are finding that one piece of information is missing in most applications, leading to a break in the process. It seems the new technology in processing medical cards has set efforts back. When there was a local medical card office in Donegal somebody could knock on a door or window and asked how an application was going. The new technology should improve the process but it is sending it backwards. Have the problems with the medical card process been considered and how can it be improved?

Mr. Paul Reid

I am not fully aware of all the details of the medical card application process. The health committee in the Houses and the Department has considered aspects of the problem. Overall, we are examining how we can increase the online application process while protecting data of citizens. We are trying to gain a happy mixture. There are extra obligations on us when compared to the private sector organisation mentioned by the Senator, as there are issues of protecting citizen data.

Although not specific to the health sector, we are moving to centralisation, which can work. There is much detailed process work to be done in advance of this but it can deliver savings. I am not very familiar with the health issue mentioned by the Senator as it is not driven from within our reform plan. Nevertheless, I know there is an extra obligation on us to protect citizen data while we try to place more processes online.

I welcome Mr. Reid and Mr. Timmins to the committee. They have an onerous task. What is the logic behind reducing public sector numbers? We have forced people to take early retirement. We pay them a lump sum and a pension and then we rehire them to work in the public sector. That was stated as recently as a couple of weeks ago when the Minister for Health, Deputy Reilly, said people who worked in the HSE and in our hospitals could be rehired. Where is the saving for the State in that? This is not a political shot at the Government in that previous Governments had this policy. Where is the sense in that?

A number of us just attended a briefing by the Carers Association which highlighted that currently an application for domiciliary care allowance can take up to six months to process and an appeal can take up to 12 to 14 months to process. As the Senator rightly pointed out, it is not rocket science in that one is entitled to it or one is not. It is the same with the medical card. Why does it take so long? Are the layers of bureaucracy there just to bog everything down and keep people artificially busy rather than determining whether someone qualifies or not?

I am always wary of people scare-mongering with statistics and saying they have cases going on for months. I actually have medical card and domiciliary care allowance cases on my books which have been going on for four to nine months, and that is no exaggeration. Where is the sense in that? Where is the work ethic in that? There is no sensible explanation as to why applications, such as those, should take so long to process, clog up the system and most definitely cost money. Given that it takes so long to deal with an individual's application, it is obviously costing money every day not to mention driving the poor person looking for the assistance to the point of distraction, which is what is happening. It is fine to be told one is getting an allowance or one is not but it is not fine to be kept in some type of purgatory where one must wait endlessly. In the vast majority of cases, people are entitled to this type of assistance.

I would like an answer to the following question, if possible. A parliamentary question was ruled out of order by the Ceann Comhairle as being argumentative. Is there a policy in regard to requests made for different types of assistance? I am not trying to blame the Government for this but is there some sort of internal embargo in the public service that it must refuse a certain percentage? What has been suggested in regard to medical cards is that 80% are refused over a period of time? One will be delayed but out of 100 applications, 80 will be refused point blank in the hope that 30 to 50 people will go away and not come back. Is there any truth in that and why does that seem to be the situation?

In regard to buildings and properties rented by the State, is it true or is it a myth that the State continues to rent buildings which are unused or where only 50% of the building is used. If that is the case, it is immoral in the economic climate in which we are living. It makes no sense to keep buildings which are not fully used. Amalgamations could take place if there is wastage in that regard.

We spoke earlier about public sector workers. It makes no sense to get rid of people. If one is paying people to work, they are productive and are spending their money. Keeping people at work is what it should be all about and not forcing them to retire.

To come back to the issue of people being forced to retire, this whole policy was ill thought out. I cannot see it benefiting the Exchequer to any great extent. Perhaps it might affect the Exchequer in a negative way rather than a positive way. For instance, we have yet to devise a self-service hospital. Due to the embargo on recruiting new people into the health service, we are using agency nurses. Of course, I have nothing but the utmost respect for agency nurses but if young people go to an agency seeking employment and are hired by the HSE, would it not be far more beneficial to the State and to those concerned if those nurses were hired directly by the HSE? Would it not be more cost efficient and would we not save money by hiring those people? Does it cost more to hire an agency nurse than to give people a full-time job and set them up in a career in our health service? I have more questions but I am conscious of time.

Mr. Paul Reid

On the numbers, the retirees and the incentivisation of retirements, the retirement process exhausted at the end of February was not incentivised. It largely involved people who had the option to retire anyway but they are retiring early. If they stayed on, they would have retired at a future date with a cut based on the pay cut. The option was to go now and not take the pay cut either in the lump sum or the payment. It was not an incentivised scheme. Some 87% of the people who retired in January and February were over 60 and the remaining were generally in their mid-50s. It was not an incentivised scheme. It involved people who had the option to retire either then or shortly.

That reduction in numbers puts pressure on the system. Part of what we had to do was put the transition and workforce planning processes in place for people to really mobilise and organise differently. It may come back to the Deputy's last question but the benefit to the Exchequer overall - we are doing this at a time when we are under real financial pressures - between now and 2015 with the reduction in numbers will be a net €3.5 billion per year both in terms of the total pay bill reduction and the impacts of the pensions cuts or levies on staff. It is a significant benefit in cash terms for the Exchequer.

Does that take into account the lump sum, the pension and if people are rehired? Will we still save €3.5 billion per year?

Mr. Paul Reid

I refer to the pensions people leave on. The number of people was no surprise to us as we can look at the pensions on a 40 year basis. That is built into our expenditure projections. We knew these people would probably retire over the course of the next three years, if not this year. The pension payments are built into our expenditure levels. That is assumed in that, as are lump sums. The net saving is €3.5 billion overall for the Exchequer. It is a significant element in the current agenda.

In terms of recruitment and the numbers we project to get to by 2015 - 282,500 - we have allowed in that numbers reduction for some recruitment and renewing some elements of the workforce. For example, a total of 9,000 staff will leave yet we project the net reduction will be 6,000 by the end of 2012. We are allowing for recruitment in very targeted and specific areas during the course of this year. We want it to be based on a workforce planning model, looking at where we have gaps and ensuring that Departments are reorganising at the same time. We started some very targeted recruitment.

How does that fit with the ban on recruitment?

Mr. Paul Reid

We have had a moratorium, and it still exists. We will get through this process and as the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Howlin stated, we will look at the renewal of skills and competencies that are needed by the workforce for aspects of their work. Some of the skillsets will be required for the health services.

Will we be hiring young nurses? It would save parents the heartache of seeing them go to Australia, America and England for work, if the HSE would hire young nurses in the next year or two. Can Mr. Reid see that happening?

Mr. Paul Reid

The moratorium exists and the Departments make a request to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform to approve recruitment. We are building our assumptions at this stage on some renewal and some recruitment. There will be recruitment in health but where the staff will be deployed is a matter for the Department of Health.

Nobody has answered the question of whether it is more expensive for the HSE to hire an agency nurse than to recruit a nurse directly.

Mr. Paul Reid

Sorry, I cannot answer that question. I can come back to the committee on it.

The Deputy is asking questions specific to the Department of Health. During a meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts, the HSE was able to respond specifically to those questions. The Deputy is asking if it is cheaper for the HSE to hire a nurse directly as opposed to getting an agency nurse. The answer is that it is probably cheaper to hire the nurse through the HSE, which gives credence to lifting the embargo in places. A commitment was given that the embargo would be relaxed where it would make economic sense.

Will Mr. Reid comment on the buildings?

Mr. Paul Reid

I mentioned buildings in the course of my presentation, and we want to reduce the spend on leases. If we have under-utilised building we want to consolidate people into single buildings and release the buildings that are under-utilised. As part of the decentralisation programme, there were three projects announced but we do not have the staffing levels to sustain each building and it has been announced that these buildings will close, one is located in Tubbercurry, one in Portlaoise and one in Birr. We aim to make a stronger proposal on a complete review of property, so that we will know where all property is located and have greater control on what is utilised.

The OPW appeared before the Committee of Public Accounts two weeks ago to discuss buildings and the breakdown of costs for public and rented buildings was provided. That information was made available to the Committee of Public Accounts through the OPW.

I should be on the Committee of Public Accounts.

I thank Mr. Reid and Mr. Timmins for appearing before the committee. I have three observations and I would like answers, if possible.

Mr. Reid mentioned the closure of a building in Tubbercurry and Birr and in another place. Were these properties owned by the State or were they leased? I appreciate that Mr. Reid may not have the answer off hand, but will the State be in a position to extract itself from a contractual arrangement, if the property is being leased?

On the question of e-government, it was mentioned that part of the passport application process will go online, which is very welcome and medical cards were mentioned by Senator Harte. Is it envisaged that during the roll-out of the public service card, allowances would be made for other public service identity type applications to be made online for other services, for example, drivers licences and so on?. It occurred to me that if one is cutting down on the amount of paperwork that is toing and froing between the public and various Departments, that if forms are all filled out, a member of staff could hit print or look at a screen and approve something this would cut down on the time, and therefore the money that is spent on the application process.

I missed the OPW's presentation to the Committee of Public Accounts and I will investigate that. We, the public representatives could talk about shared services particularly at local authority level, where local authority offices order bits and pieces whereas if the ordering was done on a regional basis, with three or four counties pooling their resources, the Exchequer could save a vast amount of money. This would support local business. If one combines the purchasing power of five or six county council areas, it will have a knock-on effect on small businesses that have been supplying those local authorities, but by approaching the purchasing on a regional basis, one can still tender to business within that community and allow a saving for the Exchequer.

The question of property assets management was covered in responses to Deputy Healy-Rae's questions on rationalisation. I would appreciate an answer on the effect of being released from contract. Does the State envisage netting a large income from the sale of properties that are no longer inhabited? I imagine it would not be a significant number of properties, but I would appreciate the figures.

My final question is a staff allocation issue and I question the length of time it takes to process various applications. Deputy Healy-Rae covered it, but I can point to a scenario where an individual applied for a redundancy payment in May 2011 and this week I received the call to say the payment was being issued and the constituent had received it. I also had another individual who wrote to me saying he has been told it will be August of this year before his redundancy payment is looked at. I appreciate that there are vast numbers of redundancy applications and with reduced human resources, Departments are having to retarget the delivery of the service they are trying to provide. My question goes back to contract staff. I know the Department of Social Protection engaged staff from the HSE when it came to processing rent allowance applications not so long ago and l think that is still continuing in some areas. Mr. Reid spoke about the renewal of the skills set of the workforce and it would be a function of the Department to ascertain what is worthy of renewal. In terms of targeting resources, it would occur to me that the Department of Social Protection would require such targeted allocation of resources. Will Mr. Reid comment on that?

Mr. Paul Reid

Thank you for your questions. I will answer the questions in reverse order. The final question related to the Department of Social Protection. The transition that I touched on earlier, is where community welfare officers transferred from the HSE to the Department of Social Protection. Similarly, FÁS has transferred to that Department. Recently, we approved an extra 150 people for the Department to facilitate the roll-out of the public service card. We are aware of the demands and it is probably an operationally efficient Department. It has good processes but some demands have hit it stronger than ever. I do not have the total numbers before me but there are almost 2,000 more than there were only a couple of years ago. We are aware of the position of the Department of Social Protection and we have approved extra resourcing.

The overall issue of process times was raised and there was an associated question from Deputy Healy-Rae. Improving process times is a function of evaluating the processes and taking out some of the duplication and waste referred to by the Deputy. It also involved examining better ways to integrate systems and the ability for the customer to engage online. We have some of these commitments in the plan. There is also an element of workforce management and performance management. We are putting a strong emphasis on these areas in the plan. We have put a good deal into communications and management briefings on the performance management process. Frankly, we do not cover ourselves in glory in terms of the rating system and how everyone rates. We must have stronger expectations in terms of how we manage people and what we expect.

I agree fundamentally with the point made about shared services and local government. There are real opportunities in this area. We have held several meetings with local government management. The local government efficiency review group identified several areas where the 34 local government bodies could consolidate among themselves. Several areas have been targeted in the plan submitted to us recently. Several activities were identified which could be allocated to one local authority which would take responsibility for that. This is a useful development. They are looking at embracing shared services as well and we are helping them in the way they go about it. I agree there is a real opportunity to achieve savings for the Exchequer in the local government area.

The applications process was referred to as well. Our strategy is to examine what other engagement processes we can put online. We have listed several of them in the plan. Some relate to passports and certain driving licence processes. There are others including planning applications and objections which could take some hard processing out of the system. There are several listed in the plan which I am happy to share with the committee separately. We believe there other areas which could be addressed.

I use the example of the Revenue on-line service. I am a small business owner. I submit and complete all of my accounting requirements online. I go through a licensing application process. I get three letters which confirm my identity on my specific computer and that is it. Then, I can go online and do anything for as long as that licence is valid, a matter entirely up to the Revenue Commissioners. In this day and age we are entirely reliant on computers for everything. Reference was made to the national public service card. Could a licence be issued to a person through the national card or the application process that would allow them to dip into any other service and verify their identify? If we trust in our banking transactions and if the State trusts in these systems for Revenue transactions, surely we should trust in them for other facilities as well.

Mr. Paul Reid

I agree. Revenue has led the way with online services over the years. It has the strongest capability and we are keen to learn from it. We are also keen to consider some of the aspects to which Deputy Farrell referred, including improving single identifiers for businesses, residents and citizens. We are keen to have a smoother interface across various Departments so that a small business engaging with Revenue or the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation would have a unique identifier. We are evaluating how we can do that and we see opportunities in this area. As I stated at the outset, we must strike a balance between protecting citizens' data while streamlining and there are opportunities in this regard.

I realise I did not answer the last question. The three specific projects for decentralisation have been cancelled. I cannot confirm it today but I can come back again through the OPW. The OPW completed an update on the potential savings. The numbers of people involved were unsustainable in terms of the maintenance costs alone.

I welcome Mr. Reid and Mr. Timmins and I thank them for taking the time to present to us on their work so far. Does the operation of the unit involve placing people in various Departments who link in specifically with the Secretaries General to implement and drive change there? One would have expected that many of the things in the presentation would have been under development in Departments anyway if there was any sense of creativity in them. We should not need an overall reform agency to encourage Departments to do things more efficiently and to keep up with the times in terms of electronic developments etc. At the same time it is important those involved are in place to ensure it happens.

I agree with the earlier comments of Deputies and Senators. They referred to simple problems associated with processing of applications, whether for carers or medical cards and the associated unacceptable and unnecessary delays. If we are to have a responsive Civil Service we must be able to plug those delays earlier and ensure that systems are in place in such a way that they do not recur.

The presentations are good and the presentation by the Government on reform is good but the mantra we hear again and again refers to less with more and a promise to reform. We are doing this at a time when numbers are being cut in each Department. This puts additional pressures on staff in the Departments who have a larger workload as a result. The Department cannot do all of this on its own. Those involved need full engagement from everyone in the other Departments. Despite the will, I question how much change we will see at a time when resources are being cut. It is easy for the Government to say it and to put the new unit in place. However, how will the Department achieve the objectives at a time when resources are being cut and when additional pressures are being put on fewer staff in other Departments which have not shown a cutting edge for reform up to now? How achievable are the targets? It will be a difficult task.

What is the total number of staff involved? Is a total budget allocated for the delegation's work? How are those involved spread across the various Departments? Earlier, the delegation mentioned that it had addressed the Committee of Public Accounts and the Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform. What is the relevance of this committee to the work of the Department? Was there a need to have the delegation here today? If there is no specific role for this committee, should we have simply joined in on the previous days when the delegation was addressing other Oireachtas committees?

That is doing more with less.

Mr. Paul Reid

A question was raised about resourcing and who we have in Departments as part of the process. Like any change management, to be successful it must be owned by the relevant Departments. We did not put in place a process such that all the people reporting to me centrally. The governance arrangement is such that we have a senior manager at assistant secretary level in each Department reporting to a Secretary General, who takes the lead and the responsibility for the cross-cutting reform agenda. This has worked so far. We are off to an okay start and we have had good engagement. It becomes more challenging as one goes to implement some of the cross-cutting reforms. There is no doubt Departments have been getting on with reforms and they have their own reform priorities. They have carried out reform and some have been rather good at it. However, there is a different aspect to this reform in that it crosses several Departments. When one implements a HR shared service one needs engagement and buy-in from 40 public service bodies. It is different. One is not just looking for one Department to take a lead; all Departments have to be involved. A programme office is needed to drive such a project.

There are about 12 people in total in my area. It is a small office relative to others but I am happy that the senior managers and officials across the system own each dedicated programme and report to our programme office and me on progress. It is a better approach to change management. If there are too many people at a central level one does not have engagement at a senior level. Secretaries General come together as a body before we report to the Cabinet committee and we engage with them on where we are making progress. I am happy that the governance structure is right and with keeping ownership within line Departments.

I may have missed the last point.

I referred to the overall budget.

Mr. Paul Reid

The overall budget is driven by the budget for each element of the reform programme. Some budgets are held within Departments and others are held centrally. My budget is smaller and relates to staff with some consultancy support. We generally draw on line budgets. I am comfortable that is the right way to approach the issue.

Our Minister was with the committee a few weeks ago and suggested I attend a meeting to engage with it on its role in public service delivery and issues that may come from that. That is where the invitation came from and I am more than happy to engage with the widest audience possible.

I appreciate that. Mr. Reid said there are 12 people in his unit. People in various Departments have ownership. Are there dedicated staff or is it part of their remit?

Mr. Paul Reid

No, it is part of their wider remit, which is challenging as we enter into wider implementation and reform. They are not dedicated staff. The particular brief they have generally includes corporate reform and services within Departments. Having sufficient numbers is one of the potential risks as we go through the process. If it becomes a risk we will address it. The Deputy is correct; the people to whom he referred have priority.

Mr. Reid came from outside industry. Somebody of his standing who has a specific function and role within the Department can look at things in a very different light from somebody within the system. It is often the case that when one stands back and looks at a problem or organisation one may see something at an objective or subjective level, depending on the background, conflicts or opposites involved, that might not be as obvious to those within the system.

When Mr. Reid looked at the Civil Service what struck him most, positively or negatively, about functionality, dysfunctionality or something that needed to be changed? What needs to be changed? What is the overarching requirement for change within the system?

Mr. Paul Reid

They are very good questions. I draw a contrast between the private and public sector. I will qualify it by saying that the simplistic good versus bad debate is not very well informed.

One difference I saw was in where things come together. In a private organisation things come together at one particular point, such as the CEO. Government Departments have Accounting Officers who have accounting responsibility for each Department. As one is implementing change across Departments one needs full engagement and sign off from every Department. Things have to be done differently as there is no single mandate. A lot more engagement, buy in, commitment and consensus are required.

There is also another contrast. Due to the role of the State, there obligations to citizens. In the private sector one can take blunt decisions about stopping some services. In tough times like this private sector organisations would decide to stop providing services but demand for public services increases. To contrast something like procurement, in a private sector organisation if one is carrying out procurement rationalisation one can be more brutal but in a public sector organisation one has to think of other issues such as small businesses and local employers.

I thank the witnesses for attending the meeting which has been very constructive and informative. I wish Mr. Reid well. It is in all of our interests that he is successful.

The joint committee went into private session at 5.37 p.m. and adjourned at 5.45 p.m. sine die.
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