JOINT COMMITTEE ON JOBS, SOCIAL PROTECTION AND EDUCATION debate -
Thursday, 29 Sep 2011

Skills Needs of Industry: Discussion with Departments of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, and Education and Skills.

Vice Chairman

The next item is a briefing by officials from the Departments of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation and Education and Skills on proposals to ensure that there is a better skills match between industry needs and third level graduates and to develop enterprise education in Irish secondary schools and business innovation in third level institutions.

I welcome the following: Mr. Kevin McCarthy, assistant secretary; Ms Anne Forde, principal officer, higher education and policy section; and Ms Margaret Kelly, principal officer, qualifications, curriculum and assessment policy section of the Department of Education and Skills. I also welcome Mr. Pat Nolan, principal officer, science and technology policy unit; Mr. Eamon McHale, principal officer, local enterprise section; Mr. Gary Dixon, assistant principal officer, industrial relations unit; and all the officials of the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation. I also welcome Mr. Cathal Fitzgerald who is here in the place of Marie Bourke, department manager, educational and skills and labour market policy unit of Forfás.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

I ask Mr. McCarthy to begin his briefing on proposals to ensure there is a better skills match between industry needs and third level graduates and to develop enterprise education in Irish secondary schools and business innovation in third level institutions.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

I thank the Chairman for the invitation to address the committee. There is one change in our delegation. Mr. Thómas Sheahan is here in place of Mr. Eamonn McHale from the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation.

My opening remarks are made on behalf of both Departments. While the two Departments have distinct policy responsibilities we have a common purpose in supporting enterprise needs, competitiveness and economic growth. Clearly, close engagement and collaboration between the Departments or agencies in the respective sectors is essential in aligning education provision with current and emerging skills and innovation requirements in the enterprise sector.

Members will have before them the detailed submission we forwarded, which outlines important elements of the national policy framework that underpins this area. It also describes a number of cross-cutting policy structures and arrangements for formal engagement that are in place between the Departments of Education and Skills and Jobs Enterprise and Innovation. Those formal structures include national councils, implementation groups and senior official groups, as listed on page four of the submission document. The enterprise sector is also represented on the statutory agencies responsible for curriculum reform and assessment, quality assurance and policy advice across the education system and on the boards of VECs, higher education institutions and FÁS. Direct advice from industry also informs the development of education policy on an ongoing basis. I might add that a new education enterprise forum, a dedicated forum, is now being established which will be chaired by the Secretary General of the Department of Education and Skills. Its first meeting will take on 10 October and the American Chamber of Commerce Ireland, delegates of which appeared before the committee prior to us, will part of that forum, as will other industry representatives.

With regard to skills supply, the expert group on future skills needs plays a key role in analysing and advising on the future skills requirements of enterprise. The group is mandated by the two Ministers to identify and project skills needs, encompassing both sector specific skills and more generic skills requirements. The development of appropriate skills for the workplace has implications for curricula, programme design and teaching methodologies at all levels of the education system. The detailed submission outlines curricula reforms under way based on the advice of the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, NCCA. The council draws directly on enterprise inputs in its work. Curriculum development at primary and second level seeks to embed core skills in all subject areas. The key skills identified are information processing, communicating, critical and creative thinking, working with others and being personally effective.

At second level, the NCCA is currently finalising advice to the Minister on proposals for significant junior cycle reform. One of the most important recent curricular reform initiatives was in mathematics, which is a critical skills area for the enterprise sector. Project maths is being implemented in junior cycle and senior cycle simultaneously and an implementation support group provides a partnership between industry, higher education and second level education to support the objectives of project maths.

In addition to these broader reforms, there is growing provision for specific enterprise development education and work experience in schools, particularly in transition year. The enterprise development agencies and business organisations promote and foster links between schools and the enterprise sector through programmes such as the student enterprise awards, junior achievement, youth enterprise Ireland or young entrepreneur. These and other mechanisms are aimed at promoting and rewarding entrepreneurship education in schools.

Curricular reform is also ongoing in higher education. As a matter of policy, institutions adapt existing programmes and develop new programmes on an ongoing basis in response to wider needs and demands. Enterprise advice on course content is sought at institutional level. Engagement with enterprise is endorsed as a core pillar of the higher education mission in the national strategy for higher education to 2030 published earlier this year. Enterprise engagement takes a range of forms at sectoral, institutional and individual academic levels. Some specific enterprise engagement initiatives are cited in the detailed submissions as examples of good practice.

One of the challenges described in the national strategy is to mainstream this best practice activity across the board. The strategy describes a detailed framework and range of recommendations to do this, including structured employer surveys and interaction, increased work placement opportunities, staff mobility into enterprise and a renewed focus on relevant generic skills. It is important to emphasise that meeting the skills requirements of industry is compatible with broader educational objectives for individual development. In the dynamic world of work, employers prize core qualities that are generic in nature. They want adaptable, well rounded, creative individuals, strong skills in literacy, numeracy and technology use as well as communication and interpersonal skills and higher order conceptual skills in problem solving, critical analysis and innovation. An emphasis on core skills and broader disciplinary foundations is increasingly valued over excessive specialisation.

An IBEC survey published last year showed that 75% of employers were satisfied with the calibre of graduates from Irish higher education institutions. In a recent international survey for European finance Ministers, Ireland ranked 1st for the employability of its graduates. However, there are important deficits. The IBEC survey pointed to specific difficulties employers had recruiting graduates from engineering and technology disciplines. Given the importance of technology-based sectors for employment, addressing this is a major priority. There have been a number of collaborative strategic responses aimed at addressing this graduate deficit, a number of specific initiatives, including CAO bonus points and ongoing activities under the discover science and engineering awareness programme. Other outreach and awareness programmes are described in the detailed submission.

I referred to related curriculum developments, including project maths. More recently, joint work has been undertaken to address specific skills deficits in the ICT sector. An ICT action plan is under development with strong enterprise input. This aims to boost the supply of ICT skills in the short term through an increase in conversion and up-skilling opportunities as well as measures to enhance the longer term supply of graduates in the field.

Providing up-skilling opportunities to equip people for a return to work is an urgent short-term priority. Springboard, launched as part of the Government's jobs initiative in May, funds part-time higher education and training opportunities for the unemployed and strategically targets funding towards flexible provision in areas where there are identified labour market skills shortages or growth opportunities, including ICT. Enhancing the flexibility of access to higher education for those in employment is also important in improving skills potential and productivity. Reform of funding mechanisms in higher education and the development of consistent recognition of prior learning systems will support this.

More widely, the higher education sector has a central role in generating the knowledge, creativity and innovation necessary to support new enterprise opportunities and contribute to economic recovery. Supporting an environment where business innovation can flourish requires a sustained focus on company capabilities in research, innovation and technology and on linking enterprise with research institutions to deliver innovative, market-led products. The skills and innovation needs of business are supported in higher education through new strategic alliances to have the enhancement of enterprise development as a key objective, by entrepreneurship and business support programmes, by the direct sponsorship of PhD students and by the involvement of employers in development structured doctoral programmes.

A number of strategic programmes are run by Enterprise Ireland in the higher education system with a view to commercialising research and development, exploiting market opportunities, supporting business incubation and driving innovation. More detail on all these elements is provided in the full submission. We must update two figures in that document. On page 11, a reference is made to the number of exam sits in the LCVP linked module. The figure of 14,500 should be updated to 16,386. On page 12, a reference is made to the number of business sits in the leaving certificate. The latest figure is 18,038. My colleagues and I will be happy to take questions.

Vice Chairman

I thank Mr. McCarthy for the presentation.

Senator Averil Power

I thank the officials for their opening presentation. It is good to have officials from two different Departments present. The submission is valuable, as it gives a good summary of the range of initiatives under way. I will comment on them before seeking more detail. The submission refers to work experience in transition year. I hope when the junior and senior cycles are reformed, it will be ensured all students get work experience and not only those in transition year. I acknowledge the transition year itself is being examined in the context of whether it should be broken up into units to be provided during each year in second level or whether it should continue in its current form. It is vital that every student has access to work experience.

All third level courses should have enterprise and entrepreneurship content, regardless of whether one is studying business, medicine, business or law. There should be an emphasis on entrepreneurial skills because regardless of their profession, people need to have an understanding of the business environment. For example, basic business skills will help a doctor running his own practice to be more successful. It is also key at third level that every student should have a work placement as part of his or her course. Some institutions are excellent and provide a good practical component to courses but others provide nothing. A number of students achieve first class honours in every academic module but they have no experience of the practical side of the career they want to take up. That highlights a significant gap in the current system.

I agree with the aspiration in the submission to place a greater emphasis on generic skills such as literacy, numeracy, IT, communications, problem solving and so on. I can see how the Department has a direct influence on the school curriculum and, in reforming the senior cycle and addressing the issues I have raised, there are opportunities to make sure key skills are embedded and students are given practical experience. The national strategy for higher education is a good overall framework but I would like to hear more about how change will be implemented at that level because the Department is more distant when it comes to implementation. There are examples in the presentation of really good practice that is under way in some institutions and the strategic innovation fund has incentivised many good initiatives, but there are other areas where it has not changed. How can we have a more systematic change instead of incentivising some institutions to come up with good practice? How can we ensure the changes take place across the board? What is the Department's strategy for monitoring change at third level, incentivising it in a broader way than just the strategic innovation fund? Perhaps there could be core funding so the changes set out in the submission could be implemented on the ground.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

There are some good initiatives for teaching and learning development at third level. One of the challenges that has been identified is systemising it in a context where there is a respect, enshrined in legislation, for academic autonomy. Individual universities and their academic councils have responsibility for academic affairs.

The innovation task force report, which predated the higher education strategy, made a number of similar recommendations for programme content and opportunities for workplace learning as part of undergraduate and postgraduate programmes and for the wider availability of entrepreneurship modules across the board. On the implementation of some of the recommendations, there are system structures in place to promote and monitor progress with wider dissemination.

The Higher Education Authority is about to embark on a consultation process on the development of a national platform for teaching and learning, which would be aimed at trying to generalise best practice in teaching and learning developments that in some cases has been fostered by the strategic innovation fund and to disseminate that best practice. That initiative is under way, in partnership with the universities and other institutes of higher education, to share learning in terms of best practice in teaching and learning innovations, including the wider availability of modules and options such as entrepreneurship content but more particularly around the fostering of core generic skills as part of all programmes.

There is another specific recommendation in the innovation task force report on work placements. It is interesting to look at some of the monitoring reports on progress in the implementation of those recommendations. Currently, 25% of all higher education courses, according to a study by Cork Institute of Technology across 23 institutions, have a work placement period as part of the undergraduate programme. That excludes clinical courses that include work placements as the norm. Around 10,500 students in higher education are completing a work placement period as part of the undergraduate programme. That might be higher than had been thought to be the case but there is an opportunity to do more in this area, notwithstanding the practical considerations surrounding the availability of work placements in the current job market. It is, however, an area where we want to go further.

An oversight group monitors the delivery of various strands and recommendations in the higher education strategy, including the embedding of core skills in all undergraduate programmes. There have been specific recommendations on a reorientation of the first year experience of higher education to give a more general experience, where people are exposed to the core skills they will need in the workplace, including entrepreneurial skills. Responsibility for delivering that rests with the universities and institutions but the structure is in place to monitor what is happening.

Funding mechanisms are important when it comes to academic autonomy and the levers a Department has to make progress in these areas. There is a clear need to further enhance the performance elements of funding in higher education. The strategy includes a strategic dialogue process, a new mechanism to broker the relationship between the State and independent higher education institutions, where the State effectively, through the HEA, sets out its policy objectives and what it wants to see delivered from a higher education system. Through a process of strategic dialogue, as described in the strategy, it extracts performance and holds the system to account for performance against that benchmark and links funding to delivery on that performance. It becomes a question of the type of performance measures built into that process. If, as a State, we see opportunities for work placements, service learning, a broader based first year experience or specific learning outcomes as part of undergraduate programmes on a standard basis, those are the sort of objectives that can be articulated as part of the strategic dialogue process. That is part of the challenge that lies ahead in terms of implementing the overall strategy.

Ms Margaret Kelly

There is work experience in transition year for about 50% of the cohort; each one of those students does a work experience placement. About 5% of the leaving certificate applied course have a placement and in the leaving certificate vocational programme, about 30% of the cohort undergo work experience, with an overlap between the two. Those are not, however, the only places where innovation and enterprise skills are promoted. We have that in the business syllabus and programmes like the young social innovators and civic, social and political education, where students must identify a theme, research it, engage in an action project and campaign for change. There is community awareness and interaction while key skills such as planning and the bringing of an initiative through to fruition are developed. That is what the EU defines as enterprise when it talks about eight key competences for second level pupils. We are developing those skills across a system.

The major focus of reform now will be the junior cycle. While developing key skills and promoting creativity and enterprise, I doubt it will be in the form of a work placement because the children are too young and there are supervision issues. We are trying to enrich the curriculum by encouraging schools to bring learning outside the classroom, involve the community and promote good business links. There are initiatives, particularly in disadvantaged schools, to provide that.

Second level does not have a "one size fits all" approach. It is important to have programme and subject choice if we are to encourage more children to stay in school until the completion of senior cycle. While promoting enterprise and generic skills that are critical to employment, we are not yet at a stage where we will have a work experience placement for all students as part of second level.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

It strikes me that there is quite a large infrastructure measuring skill needs and developing curricula for the future but on a simple basis some innovation could be useful. LinkedIn, for example, is a useful social media which connects employers with potential employees. If the State could develop a social media like that it could, first, quickly link employees with employers who are in need of each other and, second, employers could quickly identify the skills needed. Such a database would catch the skills need within industry and would also ensure that situations do not arise where there are skills in certain sectors but those skills were not being matched to skills needs in others.

It is important in these areas to make sure there are industry representatives on many of these infrastructures that measure skills needs. An organisation I and some of my colleagues have met is JobFit, which identifies the needs of industry and is led by industry. It is an organisation of social activists working for long-term unemployed people to bring them up to the necessary skill levels to allow them be employed by multinational companies.

Reference was made to JobBridge. I was struck by the fact that 1,400 positions are being created on JobBridge. That is not nearly enough. There are 1,600 people either signing on or emigrating every week in the State. To date, JobBridge has a total of 1,400 places. I would encourage the Department to consider that much more energy must go into the immediate crisis that exists.

It is good for all of us to be able to see the objectives inherent in many of the different organisations but what would be more beneficial would be for us to see the key performance indicators of all the organisations listed, including the innovation task force, the implementation group, the senior official group and the National Economic and Social Council, to determine the expected outputs of those organisations every month. That would allow us as a group to measure not just the objectives and the strategy, but the actual outputs and to determine if they are being implemented as the objectives indicators. If there is a list of the different groups we might be given for the next committee meeting the key performance indicators for each of those groups.

Vice Chairman

Do any of the officials wish to respond?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

On the first suggestion about using social media, there are opportunities for all public organisations to make better use of social media. What the Deputy described sounds more like an agency type service in terms of matching vacancies to individuals, which is more akin to a job placement type service.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

It would also measure needs because employers would be able to input their skill needs onto it.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

The approach of the expert group on future skills needs, and others may want to comment on that, in identifying skills requirements would be to examine on a macro level across the economy the immediate shortages or shortfalls in terms of skills provision, and the projected shortfalls, taking account of what is in the pipeline in terms of people in higher education and so on. It would examine that both on a macro basis involving colleagues in the skills and labour market research unit in FÁS but also in terms of needs that are unique to particular sectors.

We would be satisfied that the mechanisms are in place in terms of doing the analysis. The analysis is not at issue in that we have a fairly good handle on it and there would be a strong involvement of enterprise in the analysis conducted by the expert group on future skills needs in terms of identifying the labour market shortages and labour market skills needs arising from that. The more intractable issue for an education system is meeting those shortfalls, given the inevitable time lag between the time somebody decides to pursue a particular course of study to when they qualify. The education system and education outputs, to use that awful phrase, do not tend to respond to needs in real time. What we have seen in the IT sector, for example, is a good example of that where there has been a significant pick-up in the past two or three years in terms of the uptake of ICT programmes in higher education of the order of 30% in the past two or three years. What we are dealing with, however, is significant shortages that arise from a collapse in confidence in that sector after the dotcom collapse in the earlier part of the past decade, and this was alluded to in the earlier presentation from the American chambers, in that during the good years students were not going into these technology areas. It is starting to turn back now but it is not turning quickly enough in terms of providing the supply of skilled people that are needed for industry.

Regarding key performance indicators of those various groups, the groups described in the submission take a number of forms. Some of them are policy groups which are effectively an interaction between people at official level, people in the enterprise sector and other interested parties. In terms of dealing with policy objectives, they would be clearly set out either in a programme for Government or in strategy statements of Departments. They are actually policy supports. They are a support and the responsibility for delivery ultimately rests with the responsible Department.

Key performance indicators would be established for individual Departments. There are targets established in, for example, a programme for Government or in individual strategies. There is probably a mix in terms of a response to the specific question the Deputy asked on identifying the key performance indicators for these various groups because it depends to an extent on the nature and the roll of the group and whether it is a group responsible for delivering on something or one that is a support to a responsible actor in the form of a Department or agency. I will ask my colleague, Anne Forde, to come in on some of the other points.

Ms Anne Forde

To add to what Mr. McCarthy stated, the expert group on future skills needs is a key part in the interaction between the enterprise sector and the education and training sector. It is representative of the enterprise sector as well as the education and training sector. Each year it publishes a statement of activity. It regularly undertakes research into individual sectors of the economy to identify precisely the skills shortages and the skills gaps and it matches those against the outputs through research undertaken on an ongoing basis by the skills and labour market research unit of FÁS, which also provides the secretariat to the expert group on future skills needs. There are regular publications each year monitoring Ireland's skills supply including the national skills bulletin and a report on vacancies that exist across the economy. All of those pieces of research are then transmitted into the further education system in FÁS and they then help inform the ongoing development of provision by individual institution and colleges.

Vice Chairman

I will call the next speakers and the officials might respond to their contributions. I will call Deputy Conaghan followed by Senator O'Donnell and Deputy Lawlor.

Deputy Michael Conaghan

I welcome the delegation. Economies always need skills but it is important to bear in mind that economies can change very quickly and, consequently, skills sets can become redundant very quickly. Since many of the officials are from the Department of Education and Skills, it is important that we distinguish between education and training in terms of the generation of skills and how quickly skills can become redundant because education is quite distinctive in comparison to training. To get that balance we could easily skew the education system to become subservient to the economy. It is about getting that balance and it struck me while listening to Mr. McCarthy that the needs of the economy must almost permeate down to the kindergarten. Education is a distinctive human encounter whereas training is not.

May I talk about a human disposition which is transferable, that is, creativity? In the primary school curriculum, for example, the key encounters whereby children discover, enjoy and find the measure of their creativity, as well as competence in using it, are the visual arts, dance, drama, mime and so on. Those are the wellsprings of creativity, but in many working class areas they are hardly taught at all. Of course we must embrace skills, but there are other things that we can and should embrace fully, without mitigating the importance of the development of skills.

Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell

I thank Mr. Kevin McCarthy for that comprehensive outline. I am new to this game so my questions may sound Noddyish. I would like to speak a little about what Deputy Michael Conaghan said. He is absolutely correct.

I have three questions. While I might be young at this game, I taught for ten years in Carysfort College and for 22 years in Dublin City University. I have had considerable experience and I consider the Department of Education and Skills to be the heartbeat of who we are. It is the most important Department. First, has any individual or committee thought about how we get rid of bad teachers? What do we do about dispassionate, disinterested and inept teaching? I have seen that in my 32 years. We always blame the subjects. However, much of the time the problem is not the subject but the actual person who is handling the subject and is incapable of bringing it to life.

Vice Chairman

Senator, this is not necessarily a suitable topic for this meeting.

Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell

It is a question which is not asked.

Vice Chairman

The witnesses may not be in a position to answer it.

Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell

That is fair enough. I may not fully understand the committee's terms of reference and the ramifications of that.

Second, how much money has been put into research, how much research has been done and how does that research manifest itself in jobs? Third, has any thought been put into the kinds of knowledge being brought about in classrooms? What the Department's officials argue for, on the grounds of the need to develop interpersonal communication skills, team-working and consumer awareness, is very important. There are, however, other important subjects, such as the arts. We may not be creating disciplines within first, second and third level education that will bring about knowledge of the arts, society, politics, orality and media. I mention media because we are so defined by them. The subjects that are coming up, and rightly so, are highly technical. I am thinking of Project Maths and one or two others. I am not convinced they are necessarily the subjects that will create and manifest the very things we are looking for, which are creativity, interpersonal skills, management of self and all the things we want people to have in order to live in society.

I apologise for the first question, but it is one that needs to be asked in relation to our blaming disciplines while not looking at how they are being imparted. It is common knowledge that mathematics was taught by people who were not trained to do so.

Vice Chairman

The validity of the question is not at issue. It is simply that it is not relevant to the topic under discussion at this meeting. We can discuss at another time.

Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell

Thank you, Vice Chairman. I do not expect an answer to the question.

Deputy Anthony Lawlor

I support Senator O'Donnell in asking her first question. It is relevant. There are people who are teaching our children in a manner that will prevent them finding employment when they leave school as a result of bad educators. Something must be done about it. I am sure Mr. Kevin McCarthy is a senior official in the Department of Education and Skills. I think he could make a comment on this question.

I repeat the question I put to the American delegation earlier. I recently read an article which claimed we are training people for jobs that do not exist. Many of the students who, five years ago, went into engineering, architecture and law now find there are no jobs available in those areas. I suffered this difficulty. Having studied agriculture in the mid-1970s, I could not find a job when I qualified in 1981. Are we planning for the jobs that will be available? Jobs are the issue, whether on the cultural side of things or in high-end technical employment. Are we planning and educating people for the jobs that will be available in five, ten or 15 years time?

Vice Chairman

Officials are not in a position to comment on Government policy. I invite Mr. McCarthy to comment on the contributions that have been made.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

Some very interesting questions have been put and comments made. Deputy Conaghan made a general point as to whether we are talking about education or training, and the need to distinguish between the two in giving people the appropriate skill set to manage in the rapidly changing external environment in which they will live and work. I agree with Deputy Conaghan. Perhaps we did not get this point across sufficiently well. The major emphasis, which underpins curriculum change at all levels of the education system, is on embedding the core skills that people need for living, learning, operating and functioning as citizens in a changing world environment. Those core skills are capacity to think independently and creatively and to work, communicate and interact with others. Those are skills for life, which employers are telling us are also the kinds of skills needed in employment. There is a recognition that the education system cannot be expected to produce the finished article, in terms of employment-specific knowledge. That is not what employers want. They want people who are well-rounded, able to adapt, flexible, able to take on new learning and operate in a changing environment. During their careers employees will operate in numerous jobs in different contexts. The core skills I mentioned are the ones our education system has a responsibility to impart to students. I do not see the two as inconsistent. Meeting the needs of employers is consistent with providing a good rounded education. This is true of the work the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment is doing at primary and second level. The work that is going on in higher education, where there is now an emphasis on giving a broader based experience, a broader disciplinary knowledge and a more generic first year experience where people have exposure and the opportunity to develop more generic skills, is also perfectly consistent with what the Deputy is saying.

I hope people will have increasing opportunities to up-skill and re-skill, do short programmes and continually educate and train themselves throughout their working lives and acquire the skills needed to do a particular job at a point in time. If we can give people the foundation of a broad-based education with those broad-based skills we will put them in a much better position to operate in a very different employment environment in their future careers. Students who are graduating now will probably retire some time around 2070. None of us can envisage what the world of work will be like then. We must impart those basic core skills.

I will not get into the specifics of how we get rid of bad teachers. It is acknowledged that teaching quality is probably the most fundamental factor in terms of quality of education outcomes from the system. The literacy and numeracy strategy recently launched by the Minister provides for some particular changes, including in the area of teacher education, extension of the B Ed programme from three to four years, extension of the H Dip programme to two years and an emphasis on continuous professional development for teachers, which I believe are a reflection of the fact that educational outcomes will not be improved unless there is in the classroom the quality of teacher who is equipped to impart the basic skills which people need. There is a huge emphasis on teaching quality in all of our strategies for change. Continuous professional development is intrinsic to the roll-out of curriculum change at primary and second level. My colleague, Ms Kelly, may wish to say more on that issue.

Ms Margaret Kelly

Ridding the system of bad teachers is not my area of responsibility either. However, I am aware that the Department has agreed a strategy with management and the unions to deal with ineffective teachers. The employer is the school board of management and ultimately if a process must be put in train this responsibility rests initially with the employer. We have invested in increased inspection. Currently, all inspection reports are published and are available on our website, which brings a strong critical community element to the work of a school and how it is responding to local needs in its area. This is followed up by a unit within the Department. There is investment in sustained professional development for those people and schemes are in place to ease and encourage people out of the profession. Primarily, this is a matter for individual schools and teachers. While we do have a strategy it is ultimately the responsibility of local schools to progress this in the first instance.

Mr. Pat Nolan

Senator O'Donnell's question in regard to the return on the investment is important in particular in current economic circumstances. No one can show direct causation but everyone can show huge instances of correlation. In this regard, we are speaking about the excellence produced by the investment. Research is a real draw for foreign direct investment, FDI. The proportion of the FDI investments are categorised every year by the IDA in terms of whether they are research or product driven, the business expenditure on research and development, BERD, figure, which has increased immensely, and other tangible things such as the fact that exports from research intensive industry are much better and are increasing more substantially than in other areas. There is a whole lot of correlative evidence available, which is not anecdotal to Ireland but is global. It is what is used in lieu of proving a direct causative effect. The most economically dynamic countries in the world, including Singapore, Korea and Finland, are investing substantially in research. Approximately 4% of their GDP is invested in research.

Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell

That is more in the sciences than the liberal arts.

Mr. Pat Nolan

Yes, but it would include substantial elements of social sciences. Behaviour is hugely influential and of immense interest to people such as, say, the group which attended this meeting prior to us.

Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell

Yes.

Mr. Pat Nolan

How humans interact and how we can improve on interactions is important. Investment is very definitely not only in the area of what one terms to be hard sciences, but does comprehend significant degrees of humanities.

Deputy Tóibín asked a question about indicators. We will shortly be producing a consolidated report on research indicators across whole spend in the country. That report, which is nearing completion, will include the internationally comparable details used to compare our investment with that of other countries and also some indicators which are domestically important in terms of investment on return. We aim to publish that report in approximately a month's time.

Deputy John Lyons

I thank the departmental officials for attending our meeting today. Prior to being elected to the Dáil I was a secondary school teacher for 13 years.

Vice Chairman

We appear to have gotten a lot of secondary school teachers out of the last general election.

Deputy John Lyons

I understand the point made. I am seeking a comment rather than definitive response to my question. The expert group on future skills has been established. What future skills do we need? Is there a litany of skills that we do not already have within the various aspects of our teaching and learning programmes? The joint reports listed by both Departments today have not identified any such skills in terms of outcomes from the primary school curriculum, which was revised in 1999, and secondary school syllabi, even those which are outdated. Not one additional skill that is not already part of the existing curriculum at primary or secondary level has been identified. Perhaps the officials would identify these additional skills.

What is important is not developing skills or the sentiments of laying out what the curriculum should achieve, rather it is the method of how this is achieved that is important. As recently seen in the media, the enthusiastic teacher is each time subject to the assessment process. They are changing. Ultimately, we must ensure that the majority of people involved in instilling educational skills in our young people and university goers are motivated to take on, as part of their careers, active learning methodologies and to rid themselves of their didactic approach of talk talk, namely, what I hear I forget and what I do I understand, and so on. We can have all the expert groups and fancy technology we want telling us of all the skills we need but what is important is the person who makes contact with the people whom we want to have these outcomes so that we have a better workforce and so on.

Just as there may be people who need to rethink their careers within the educational field, there are similar people in all walks of life. People in the private or public sector are often inept in what they do. I believe all of what is needed already exists and that it is in the delivery process that the link in the chain is broken. It is almost like people believe we are going to come up with a new chemical element that has been missing in the atmosphere and that this will make things different. It is simply a matter of good old fashioned methods being used properly.

Deputy Seán Crowe

I welcome the officials. I believe the document is useful in that it gives us a shape of the direction in which the Department is going. While words such as "flexible" and "adaptable" are used in the document part of the problem down through the years has been that the system has not been flexible or adaptable. The terms "graduation" and "internship" are used with this mantra of 12 weeks. I do not know from which hat that was pulled. One of the difficulties is how we keep graduates in Ireland. If a course is offered when they leave education, there may be more of a chance of them staying here. The system does not show much flexibility in this regard, yet there are many areas in which we do well. For example, the Connect programme is a digital resource education partnership between South Dublin County Council and some schools in Tallaght. It has been successful but has not been replicated across the education system. The overall education system does not seem to be able to adapt to these developments.

In the past two years, the expert group completed an analysis of future skills requirements in key export sectors in the economy, such as the green and biopharma-chemical sectors. The Springboard initiative aims to create 6,000 jobs. Will these be linked directly to the sectors in question? Is the system capable of changing priorities if needed?

The point about apprentices finishing their training was raised. There are difficulties for those in their third year of an apprenticeship in the construction industry to get a placement. As part of their apprenticeship, they get paid and will not get social welfare support.

Changes to the curriculum of the leaving certificate have been proposed. However, the job for co-ordinator of the leaving certificate applied was not filled. There are proposals to make the junior certificate more flexible but they seem to be dumbing it down. Concerns have been raised about the dropping of subjects such as history and geography. Geography is, however, a science subject. On the one hand, we are talking about the importance of science subjects while removing it from the junior certificate.

Vice Chairman

Nothing will have a larger impact in a classroom than an excellent teacher. Giving a teacher the opportunity to acquire such skill sets is difficult. There is a heavy emphasis on teaching maths, science and technology subjects. A Teaching Council report on one primary school training college, however, noted the time allocated for religion in the college was four times that for science. Is the delegation concerned about this finding? Have the teacher training colleges adequate resources to impart balanced skill sets to teachers?

Ms Anne Forde

Picking up on Deputy Lyons's point and the reference to the expert group on future skills needs, and also Deputy Crowe's point about apprenticeships, we are trying to reflect what is happening across the entire education system from primary to third level. It would be unfortunate if the impression were created that the role of the expert group on future skills needs is to inform the primary and second level curricula. It is not. The core skills have been identified.

The economy is changing constantly. When the group was established in the 1990s, it was during the first wave of foreign direct investment into Ireland. New jobs were being created that had never been created before. The group's function was to identify what jobs were being created and their skill sets. To some degree, we are almost back in that situation now. Up to 300,000 people have lost their jobs. For many of them, they will not get another job doing what they did before the recession. The focus of the expert group is to provide opportunities for these people to re-skill. Apprentices and craftspeople in the construction industry would be a prime example. People must change their careers and go into a completely different job area. The value of the research from the expert group is that we are able to identify more precisely where the new jobs will emerge such as in the green economy. This helps inform provision in the further education system and allow people to respond to those up-skilling needs.

The new Springboard initiative is an example of this. We identified the types of jobs coming up in the biopharma-chemical, ICT, green and food sectors. The new up-skilling courses were based on this research. We do not want people re-skilling in an area in which there may not be a job at the end. While we cannot guarantee there will be a job at the end of the initiative, the research allows us to enhance the prospects of allowing someone to re-orientate their career.

FÁS has put in place several initiatives to assist people who lose their jobs before they get their apprenticeship. Likewise, the institutes of technology, working with FÁS, have devised several new programmes to allow a person without a full apprenticeship to continue to get a level 6 qualification in a related subject, say entrepreneurship. This would provide them with a passport if they want to go on to further education or, if the chance arises, to complete their apprenticeship later. The objective is to ensure they have not lost the investment put into their education to date.

Deputy Seán Crowe

The difficulty is getting back into that education stream. There are more obstacles than help in that route from apprenticeship to further education.

Ms Anne Forde

Programmes are in place. I can forward further information on what is available for redundant apprentices and craftspeople to the committee.

Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell

I do not know which area Deputy Crowe was referring to, but there are significant access programmes within third level in cases such as this.

My question on interpersonal skills, creativity, interesting thinking and imaginative ways of living was not answered. Project Maths is not outside the core of RSE literacy, what we used to call the three Rs years ago. They are fundamental to life. Will anyone or any group examine the kinds of knowledge? In universities, the kinds of knowledge were considered to be what should be imparted to young minds. Has this approach changed in any way? I understand Project Maths and the practicalities developed, but I wonder whether team work and interpersonal, communication and service skills are the right subjects to be teaching. Should we be creating other kinds of knowledge and disciplines outside the core disciplines? This is sometimes done in the primary school curriculum, but it is left behind in second level. This approach lacks excitement. Perhaps we should throw in a ball and create one or two subjects on the second level curriculum that might engender excitement. The arts are a major subject, but I also have in mind food, society, politics, media, the way we work, who we are and psychology.

Our current approach contains nothing new. Where is the excitement? Is another committee investigating appropriate kinds of knowledge to follow on from the three Rs? I am not suggesting that we throw babies and baths out with the bath water. That would be madness.

Vice Chairman

Perhaps the officials will respond to the questions that have been raised?

Ms Margaret Kelly

Regarding creativity and the changing world, it is not about necessary new skills not being taught, but about the ability to apply skills in changing contexts. Project Maths teaches problem solving that can be applied in various contexts rather than to formulae alone. This is one example of an area in which we are trying to encourage creativity. Another is languages, as these subjects are not just about literature. Rather, they are about film, drama, interpretative skills and creating and responding to work. In technology subjects, students use ICT and computer-aided design, make tools, engineer and so on. There is hardly a transition year programme in the country that does not involve a school musical. Every year, 15,000 students set up their own businesses as part of the student enterprise awards.

There is creativity across a range of subjects, but we are concerned by the trend towards rote learning and the gamesmanship surrounding the points system. If one wants to change teaching, one must change assessment. It is changing. Of the 34 subjects in the leaving certificate, approximately 18 have a second assessment component, be it oral, practical or project and portfolio work, that is designed to promote creative skills and active learning. A key acknowledgement in the proposals of the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, NCCA, on the reform of the junior certificate is that, if assessment does not change, nothing will change. Under a major change, all subjects will have second assessment components and school-based assessment will form a critical part of the overall approach. This will be a mix of school-based and externally driven assessments.

As the world is changing so much, key transferable skills, being able to apply them in different contexts and being able to cope with change are assuming increasing importance.

Vice Chairman

I asked about training colleges and the imbalance.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

Teacher training colleges are being engaged with, specifically in the context of the literacy and numeracy strategy to which I referred and the recommendations on the extension of the BEd and diploma programmes. This requires an engagement regarding content. The role of the Teaching Council to which the Vice Chairman alluded is fundamental. As with the medical, nursing, pharmacy and other professional bodies, this professional body is responsible for the registration of teachers and the registration requirements, namely, the competences of those who qualify from teacher education programmes. Where the council makes recommendations on programme content in a particular teacher education college, one would expect them to carry weight. A fundamental change in our system is the professionalisation of the teaching profession through the role of the Teaching Council.

Vice Chairman

I thank the officials for briefing the committee on a fundamentally important issue.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.40 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 4 October 2011.