JOINT COMMITTEE ON JOBS, SOCIAL PROTECTION AND EDUCATION debate

Reform of Junior Certificate Syllabus: Discussion with National Council for Curriculum and Assessment

Vice Chairman

We are here to discuss with the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, NCCA, proposals to reform the junior certificate examination syllabus with specific reference to enterprise education, and subject choice that reflects the needs of industry. I welcome Mr. John Hammond, deputy chief executive, and Mr. John Halbert, director, junior cycle, of the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

I ask Mr. Hammond to begin the presentations.

Mr. John Hammond

I thank the Vice Chairman and the committee for the invitation to present the junior cycle developments. I extend the apologies of the chief executive, Dr. Anne Looney, who is unable to attend as she had a prior appointment when the date of the meeting was changed. I will introduce the main features of junior cycle change and my colleague, Mr. Halbert, will look at how the plans for junior cycle relate to enterprise education and the needs of industry, as the committee requested in its letter of invitation.

The junior cycle reforms, recently announced by the Minister, will commence in 2014. They are designed to equip students for a different and changing world, to give schools more autonomy and flexibility in developing innovative programmes to meet those needs, and to build the capacity of teachers to focus on and develop the everyday learning and assessment taking place in our classroom. The new junior cycle, in summary, will be more about the quality of learning than, as the current junior certificate tends to be, about the examination itself.

The main features of the change include the following. A new framework for junior cycle will be used by schools to plan and develop their new junior cycle. What students learn will be made more explicit. There will be 24 statements of learning describing the learning to take place in junior cycle. Priority will be given to the areas of literacy and numeracy. Six key skills for learning, living and working in the 21st century will be named and embedded in every subject. All subjects will be set out in terms of learning outcomes, in other words, what the student will know or be able to do at the end of his or her period of study.

The curriculum will, as at present, comprise subjects but there will also be short courses. Some of these short courses will be available for schools to use off the shelf - those ones will have been developed by the NCCA. Schools will also be able to innovate and create their own short courses to an agreed template. We could see short courses on innovation and enterprise, Chinese, sustainability, information technologies, debating, or coaching in the community - courses that meet local needs and are designed locally.

Assessment will be a major lever of change in the new junior cycle. The role assessment plays in driving learning progress on a day-to-day basis in classrooms will be re-emphasised and supported. Assessment for qualifications at junior cycle will involve the familiar external exams, which will be worth 60% of the allocation, and school-based assessment, which will be worth 40% and which will be by means of a portfolio, hopefully, a digital portfolio, completed by the student during second and third years of junior cycle. The proposals on assessment would involve teachers in the field of assessment for qualifications to a greater extent than at present. This is essential – if assessment practice does not change, teaching and learning practice will not change either.

There will be two new qualifications. The first, at Level 3 of the national framework, will replace the junior certificate. The second, at Level 2, will be designed for students with particular special educational needs in mind. Both qualifications will be smaller than the junior certificate so that the focus on final examinations does not become disproportionate and detract from the focus on learning, skills, innovation and creativity in junior cycle programmes. I will now hand over to Mr. John Halbert who will relate the junior cycle developments to the theme of today's meeting, which is enterprise and the needs of industry.

Mr. John Halbert

The new junior cycle will better reflect the needs of young people as they embark on life in the 21st century. A number of significant changes to the curriculum will take place, which will be of interest to members of the committee, in the context of improving entrepreneurial skills and enterprise awareness among young people and schools.

In the existing junior cycle in most cases the only formal curricular exposure to enterprise education is through the subject of business studies, and a little more than half of the cohort take business studies at junior cycle. As part of the junior cycle reform this subject will be reviewed and modernised. However, it is more important to see that reliance on a single input in the form of a portion of a subject, as is currently the case, effectively excludes many students. In any event, enterprise is much broader than just a concern with business. As a result of the operation of the framework for junior cycle, which my colleague mentioned, all students will have learning experiences that will develop their enterprise disposition.

One of the statements of learning to which Mr. Hammond referred specifically mentions that the student will undertake initiative, will be innovative and will develop entrepreneurial skills. These dispositions, skills and knowledge can be applied in the business and employment environment but are equally relevant and important in a social community context. To achieve such learning, schools can offer the existing subject of business studies but will be encouraged to offer short courses which will have an enterprise and innovation theme. This flexibility will give schools greatly increased opportunities to expose more students to an enterprise education component at junior cycle.

The new junior cycle will bring to the fore a very strong emphasis on literacy and numeracy in all courses undertaken and not confined to particular subjects or courses. As significantly, the new junior cycle will, for the first time, introduce a cross-programme focus on key skills. The skills proposed are: managing myself, staying well, communicating, being creative, working with others, and managing information and thinking. They will have a connection with skills encountered at primary level and those envisaged for senior cycle. The starting point for development of the skills were key competences worked on by the OECD. As a result of the syllabus change and a different focus in approaches to teaching and learning they will feature in all aspects of learning. These skills epitomise the enterprising individual and provide an ongoing basis for the further development of young people in the area of enterprise.

The strong contention underpinning the reform proposals is that being better learners, more adaptable, skilled, resourceful and resilient will prepare young people to better respond to whatever demands are placed upon them in life beyond school. These young people will also be in a better position to take and make opportunities in terms of further study, employment, business life and life generally; in other words being enterprising in the truest sense of the word.

Deputy Brendan Smith

On behalf of the Fianna Fáil party I welcome this important reform measure. The process began in 2009 and I compliment Professor Tom Collins, Dr. Anne Looney, all of the staff and those who contributed to the public consultation process to this document. It is very welcome and it addresses the existing weaknesses in the system in terms of emphasis on exams and rote learning. We need to get away from this and the committee has discussed this, as has the Dáil through parliamentary questions and Private Members' debates.

It is important that the junior certificate will continue to represent an important milestone. The examination system here is robust and rigorous and has complete integrity, which is very important for any examination system, and this will continue.

According to the report, a particular focus of the new junior certificate will be on student engagement throughout the three years and this is a welcome measure. Importantly, it acknowledges that the second year of the junior cycle is the most critical year in terms of the potential for student disengagement. I hope this issue can be dealt with. The proposals place a focus and emphasis on students making a greater connection with learning and taking greater responsibility for what they learn and we very much welcome this. Naturally and quite rightly, there has been an emphasis on and concern about literacy and numeracy skills and this issue is dealt with in these proposals also.

There is flexibility, and the reduction in the number of subjects and emphasis on certain skills is welcome. An issue I would like to raise is the fear that the study of science or foreign languages may suffer or be dropped as a result of the cap being placed on the number of subjects to be examined. A very clear message must be sent that there is an onus on students to take science at junior certificate level. I may be wrong but I believe the figure I saw quoted recently was that 87% of students take science for junior certificate. It is important that there be even greater participation.

Science is not mentioned in the 24 statements of learning in the report and this is remiss given that in society in general, at Government and Department level and in public utterances by senior officials in the State development agencies and those successful in bringing jobs to the country, we need to get the message across clearly that science is of the utmost importance.

I believe that from 2012 schools can opt to reduce the number of junior certificate subjects taken. Perhaps this is more a matter for the Department than for the delegates, but we should closely monitor the subjects which students opt to take during the period prior to the changes becoming compulsory. This matter may also be outside the remit of the delegates - perhaps it is a matter for the Minister or the Department - but I will mention it. We must ensure that teachers are given adequate training and proper support. Restructuring of in-service training has been mentioned and this is needed and would be welcomed by teachers.

The short courses could be very useful in helping students develop a wide range of skills, such as music or ICT or in areas of strength in the local economy such as agriculture or fishing in a coastal community. An opportunity to acquire particular skills in areas of relevance to a local community has great potential and I very much welcome it.

I presume a detailed implementation plan is a matter for the Department. I would like to see it rolled out as soon as possible. All Members of the Oireachtas have received correspondence from science and geography teachers who are quite concerned about the future of these subjects. I presume that during the consultation process which took place in preparing this very worthwhile report the concerns of teachers of history, geography and other subjects were taken into account. During recent discussions with teachers I was struck by the number of young teachers who do not teach history or geography who expressed concern about the cap of eight subjects. Reassurance with regard to history and geography would be appreciated.

I thank Mr. Hammond and Mr. Halbert for their presentations. I also thank Professor Tom Collins, who has always been innovative, thoughtful and provocative about education. It was very worthwhile that a man of his distinction in education chaired the group which produced this worthwhile report.

Mr. John Hammond

We should elaborate on the business of core subjects and non-core subjects in the proposals. The intention was to reinforce the emphasis on literacy and numeracy in the Department's strategy which was launched during the summer. For that reason the subjects of Irish, English and mathematics are accorded a different status within the junior cycle proposals than other subjects. All other subjects have pretty much the same status and are treated equally. The problem we found over the years when discussions took place on what subjects should be in or outside the core curriculum, is that one invariably gets a long queue of subjects lining up for inclusion within the core. If, next week, we suggested that science should be a compulsory subject as part of the core, in the following weeks we would have to deal with requests concerning languages, history and geography. Soon we would end up having a core that is almost larger than the rest. The decision within the junior cycle developments was to set out these 24 statements of learning, which were effectively the core of junior cycle learning and an explicit statement of the learning that was most important in a junior cycle context. Any of the subjects Deputy Smith has mentioned, like science, history and geography, are well represented within those 24 statements of learning - maybe not an explicit mention of the subject name - history, geography or science - but certainly in the underlying knowledge, skills and learning processes that are required within those subjects.

The junior side of developments represents a slightly different approach towards how we see subjects in a junior cycle context. One of the points we made at the outset is quite important: the aim ultimately is to shift the emphasis from undue emphasis on the final examination and more towards the learning that is taking place in classrooms, and the learning programme that the school is devising for years one to three within the junior cycle. The fact that core only comes into play in terms of Irish, English and mathematics in the context of the qualification is part of that thinking.

For a school, the considerations are what subjects to utilise in planning its programme to meet the 24 statements of learning. Only at a later stage, in second and third years, may we decide on the subjects for which students will present evidence of learning in the examination. It is a different approach towards junior cycle development in that context. Does Mr. Halbert want to say anything?

Mr. John Halbert

The Deputy mentioned the absence of science but Mr. Hammond pointed out the statements of learning. Flicking through a few of those statements, if one looks for science - and that is not to say that it is only science - it states that it "develops an understanding of the natural world". It is inconceivable that there would not be science in that. Similarly, one could see a strong science emphasis in the phrase "improves their observation and critical thinking skills". It is most probable that in seeking to engage a student to learn how to think and act a school would employ science among other things. However, one would have to believe that science would certainly feature for most schools. As was rightly pointed out, most schools do science and nine out of ten children take science in junior cycle. The statements of learning will not provide a diminution of that but rather, in many ways, will see science beyond the boundaries of a single subject - i.e. to see it as a life activity rather than something one does in a class period or day. In that way, it is more empowering for a student and for a school.

Deputy Seán Crowe

One of the big questions concerning the junior certificate is whether it is worth preserving. There is a body of opinion that says the exam has been useful in the past but we have moved beyond that. The delegates spoke of various changing needs in the world. Last week, representatives of Barnados attended the committee to discuss the number of young people going through the school cycle but leaving it without basic skills in literacy and numeracy. That is what the focus is about. Clearly, in the context of assessment, we cannot have a system where children are going through school but coming out without those basic skills. The first year is the most important concerning that. If a child does not catch up in the first year it will be more difficult to do so later, especially if a child is sitting at the back, whiling away the time.

Everyone agrees that we have to educate children to think, rather than learn by rote. The big issue concerns what resources we will put into achieving that end. If we do not have those resources, what is the point of talking about reforms?

The idea of teachers assessing pupils is still not clear. There was talk of an outside element at one stage, whereby other teachers would do it. Parents are also worried about the concept of self-assessment, so how can one square the circle on that issue? There are worries about the number of subjects. One of the groups that came in said the junior cycle should perhaps be for two years rather than three. Has that been discussed?

The delegates also referred to the OECD programme for international student assessment, PISA, figures on the junior certificate. One can pluck all sorts of answers from PISA on what is or is not working. What were the main issues PISA raised concerning the junior cycle? This is about children going through school and possible future employment, but how important is the junior certificate in that regard?

Can the delegates explain the digital portfolio concept and expand on it, because it is the core of what they are talking about? Does one add to that digital portfolio every day, and does the pupil or the teacher do it? Is the assessment a bit like the old monthly reports that were filled in to show how a child is doing?

Mr. John Hammond

There are many questions there. The first question concerned whether the junior certificate was worth retaining. During the consultation period, we put out the idea in our discussion document that maybe we did not need to continue with the junior certificate as an examination. The feedback we got from schools, teachers and parent groups was that we should not throw the baby out with the bathwater. It was felt that there were aspects of the junior certificate that were important in terms of transition to the senior cycle and the experience it gave students in undertaking a national examination. It is something that is tried, trusted and works well. We think we probably achieved the right balance in retaining external examinations for part of the assessment for qualifications within the junior cycle, while at the same time introducing a different form of assessment through a portfolio. The Deputy rightly draws attention to the change that this will involve for teachers in building their capacity in the field of assessment, and teachers becoming more involved in assessment that results in certification and a national qualification. We are looking at all kinds of possibilities in terms of arrangements with which teachers will be comfortable and which will be consistent with where they stand in terms of their capacities in the field of assessment currently. We are under no illusion that in many schools the challenge of engaging with the kind of assessment in question will be significant. It will involve significant capacity building and the resources will need to be provided for that. It will also take a number of years for schools to become accustomed to and familiar with the new assessment arrangements and to be comfortable with them. However, we should not forget that there is already a certain level of expertise in the school system, for example, in schools that offer FETAC courses. Teachers there have plenty of experience in exactly the kind of assessment approach we are talking about and they use the same kind of assessment activity for certification and qualification. Therefore, it is not as if our schools have a zero skill base in that regard.

In the context of the portfolio we are very interested in looking at the possibility that it be a digital portfolio. What we mean by this is that the items to be included in a given subject in the portfolio should be recorded and stored electronically in a central place. Then, at the point of examination and marking, the teacher or whoever else is involved, including the moderator on the part of the State Examinations Commission, would access those digital portfolios from central source. Obviously, what will be included within the digital portfolio will vary from subject to subject and will relate very much to the requirements of the subject. The flexibility digital portfolios offer allows for the inclusion not only of traditional elements like examination papers, essays and so on, but allows much greater flexibility in terms of project and audio work, video pieces, interviews between the teacher and the student about their work and what they have learned through their work. In that sense, the digital portfolio has huge possibilities in terms of what it can offer in expanding the field of assessment activities in schools.

We are under no illusion that it will take considerable capacity building within the system and within schools for teachers to engage with the new forms of assessment and to become familiar and comfortable with them. That, in itself, may be a good reason to retain the junior certificate while we are trying to do so much else in the field of assessment.

Vice Chairman

I am conscious of the number of speakers and will ask them to be as concise as possible. We will bank some of the questions.

Senator Feargal Quinn

I am impressed with Mr. Hammond and Mr. Halbert because they have answered some of the questions about which I have a concern, and I am particularly impressed by the words used by Mr. Hammond with regard to "shifting emphasis away from" the final exam. I was concerned that there might be no final exam, but I like the idea of shifting the emphasis away from it. Children soak up knowledge if we find the way to make it interesting for them. We had five children in our family and we sent them all to school in France for a term before they were 14 to learn the language. This was a bit of a risk, because the two girls fell in love with French men and are now married to French men. As a result, seven of our 14 grandchildren speak French fluently as a first or second language. One of them, now 19, is at university in China learning Chinese.

The reason I mention this is to do with language. The way we teach language is not the correct way. I remember going to the Gaeltacht as a youngster and not getting homework or having to learn anything by rote or from books, but we spoke fluently when we returned. However, not all of us managed to retain that fluency. Two of my children went to Ring, Coláiste na Rinne, and learned there. Going to the Gaeltacht is a marvellous way of learning. There is a new language learning system, the Michel Thomas method, which is used in Britain to teach French and pupils learn readily. Part of the reason for this meeting is to discuss how we can train and educate people for enterprise and business. Last year, when Hewlett Packard was taking on 100 new people, it was asked what skills it required. Its response was that all it wanted people to have was another European language. One of the reporters responded that this meant no Irish need apply, because we are so bad at other European languages. We need to change our method of teaching language to encourage children to soak up other languages.

I will not repeat what Deputy Smith said, but the encouragement of language learning is one of the challenges. The delegates have answered part of my query in regard to core subjects. I was worried when the core education subjects were mentioned, that we were in danger of losing other subjects, whether science, history, geography or languages. However, I think that query has been answered. The direction being taken is the right direction, but I suggest that we find a different way to encourage people to learn languages for them to have the fluency and ability to speak them afterwards.

Vice Chairman

We will take questions from Deputy Lawlor and Senator Kelly before we ask the delegates to respond.

Deputy Anthony Lawlor

I agree with Senator Quinn on the vital importance of language learning. Not only is there a need to teach it at secondary level, but also at primary level.

On assessment, it is proposed that 60% of assessment will be external and 40% school based. Currently, external assessors assess languages such as Irish, technical drawing and other such subjects. This has an impact on schools because these assessors come from other schools and they must be replaced while they are absent. Therefore, pupils in those schools lose out as a result of their regular teacher being away. Has the external assessment aspect been thought through fully with regard to how it will work? Will there be a bank of assessors available rather than taking teachers from other schools?

Senator John Kelly

I welcome the new framework for the junior cycle as it is long overdue, but I have a few questions. Will all teachers participate in this? I assume they will, but will there be retraining available for them? If so, what does that retraining entail? Does the NCCA envisage any resistance from teachers to the changes, in particular those teachers who may have been teaching for 30 or 35 years? When one speaks of innovation, enterprise and creativity, one automatically thinks this is easy for business studies or economics teachers, but it is not quite as easy for an Irish or history teacher to fit into the same mould. How will this square be circled?

I am delighted to see an emphasis being placed on communication because the Irish are renowned throughout the world for their communication skills. This is something on which we must build. We must milk these skills and we can do that by starting at secondary school level. Deputy Crowe mentioned children who go through the education system without learning to read and write. Recently, I came across such a case. In my last job, I handed a form to a guy of about 20 and asked him to fill it up and return it to me. He asked if he could take it with him and I knew the situation immediately. When he returned, his signature on the bottom was not that of the person who completed the form. It is outrageous that a child can spend seven years in primary school and five years in secondary school without being able to read and write and that this can go unnoticed. I welcome any change that will make a difference in this regard.

Vice Chairman

I invite the delegates to respond to these questions.

Mr. John Hammond

In regard to assessment and external visitors to a school, the intention is to directly involve teachers in the school with assessments related to the portfolio part of the qualification. There should be no need for external examiners to visit the school. The State Examinations Commission has agreed to moderate the portfolio work on a sample basis among a certain number of schools in a given year. That would involve moderators examining the work of schools. However, one of the attractions of the proposed new assessment arrangements for junior cycle is that they would reduce the number of teachers who leave their schools to supervise assessments elsewhere.

That is not to deny that there will probably be interaction among schools in regard to assessments. By comparing students' work between schools, teachers can build their confidence in assessment activities and schools can see how well they are performing. When the new arrangements are put in place they may result in schools within a locality or given scheme working closely together to compare each others' work with a view to developing common standards. The NCCA will also provide advice to schools in regard to exemplification of standard two. However, the assessment of portfolios will largely be self-contained within the school context.

Senator Kelly asked whether teachers are universally enthusiastic about participating in the junior cycle developments. We do not regard the junior cycle as different to other developments in the sense that people who work in a given system are always wary of change. We expect a degree of resistance at different points as implementation proceeds to the kind of plan to which Deputy Smith referred earlier. The consultation process uncovered unease among the majority of teachers about the current offering for the junior cycle. Concerns were expressed about the overemphasis on the examinations at the end of third year and their backwash effects on the quality of teaching and learning in classrooms. Above all, teachers and schools are genuinely concerned about disengagement and the perception that while the 25 or 30 students may be in the classroom, they need to be engaged in a different way by the junior cycle.

Teachers raised issues such as the level of their involvement in assessments, the scale of the changes and the impact on their own subjects, given that their identity at post-primary level is related to the subjects they teach. However, they were equally conscious of the need to reform the junior cycle. A large number of them are engaged with embedding key skills and focusing on literacy and numeracy. In light of the flexibility schools will be given to develop different kinds of junior cycle programmes, they are taken with the idea that the first year of the cycle could be very different from the other two years.

In terms of the reception of ideas at the coalface of schools, there is a mix of apprehension at the scale of the change and concern about the level of resources being provided, alongside a warm welcome for the changes and the potential they offer to engage students further.

Mr. John Halbert

We could wring our hands and say we will never be very good with languages given our past performance but that is self-defeating. It is difficult to escape the influence of the kind of examination to which junior cycle students have been subjected. The junior certificate is a significant qualification for young people but the manner in which we vindicate learning is quite narrow because only what can be recalled and written down is valued. We are not sure this is the best way to go about enhancing students' love of learning in general, and languages in particular.

We will provide more space and time on the curriculum and in terms of what they are required to remember, with the aim of enhancing their engagement with languages. Examinations will aim at assessing what they have learned on the basis of oral skills and the capacity to express themselves to others. Conducting assessments closer to the point of learning, perhaps through videos or audio recordings, would also provide a stronger impetus for people to learn languages.

I recently met representatives of a language teachers' subject association, who regarded the changes to the assessment process and the potential for devising short courses related to cultures of the relevant languages as the most significant attractions of the new developments. If, for example, students were learning Spanish their school could generate a short course on Spanish culture to supplement their language studies. At present, languages do not reach far beyond examination preparation. That is not helpful, whether for languages or any other subject. By generating more space on the curriculum and asking students to show their learning in different ways, we will be able to teach languages more imaginatively and with innovation.

In regard to Senator Kelly's question about innovation, I respectfully suggest that non-business teachers are ideally suited to teaching with innovation. They could teach innovation in a way that allows students to apply their learning. We are more interested in helping everybody to teach subjects that allow students to apply their learning innovatively rather than relying on a particular set of teachers to work within the narrow confines of business. Innovation and innovative thinking have application across the learning environment. Once we get students to look beyond individual subjects to find out whether they can learn innovatively in science and technology, for example, we will produce people who are innovative by nature rather than in a particular subject.

Deputy Michael Conaghan

The new proposal will present different challenges for teachers, pupils and schools. Challenge is the primary stimulus of human development, so that is good.

These new suggestions will lead to more diversified learning environments, which is also good. Many of the current learning environments have become quite hackneyed and lack stimulation. Chairman, we should look at the outdoors as a learning environment. When trying to teach about ecosystems or habitats, as teachers are required to do, it is difficult to do it in the classroom from a book. We are very lucky in that in some of our cities, particularly Dublin, one can go to places such as the Liffey valley or the Camac valley and see the ancient ecosystems in living form and exactly what is portrayed in the school books.

I was talking to a young teacher in Drimnagh recently. He is a history teacher and was talking about teaching children about the Normans. He is not from the area so I mentioned that Drimnagh Castle is an exquisite example of a Norman castle. It still has the original moat. I believe it is the only Norman castle in Ireland with a moat. The water comes from the local River Camac. Bringing students there is far more interesting for the student and teacher than trying to interpret from sketches in a text book matters such as the functions of a castle, the functions of the Norman presence in that area, why they were there, who built the castle, why and when it was built and so forth. It stimulates a new side of children's intelligence. While we have all these new learning encounters, the enduring skills such as literacy and numeracy - and this teach has done a great deal to awaken an interest in literacy needs - still need sufficient attention.

In terms of creativity, the arts, by which I mean music, drama, dance and mime, and those areas that are specifically set out in the primary school curriculum, were delivered in a very haphazard and patchy way. This new flexibility at second level creates a second chance to learn or to go back on some of that, to try to fill some of the deficits and to re-awaken, at a still appropriate age in children, the values of dance, drama, mime and the visual arts and the impulse to creativity that they represent. That creativity can be transferred to other areas of the curriculum. On business, the economy and business change so quickly that a set of skills which one might think will prepare the child for a lifetime at work will be redundant in five or ten years, whereas the impulse to creativity and the knowledge and discovery of one's creativity is a transferable characteristic and skill.

The education system is not just training for a job. We must distinguish between education and training. I realise that we must open children's eyes to the wider world, and that includes business and the economy, but too much focus is on a world that vanishes very quickly, whereas something such as creativity is a perpetual quality of somebody's character.

With regard to assessment, I hope the delegates will re-examine modes of assessment that were pioneered by Trinity College and the City of Dublin Vocational Education Committee. This involved cross-moderation and the various skills teachers had to learn. The skills were honed to a very high degree. That was a very successful piece of curriculum development in the 1970s and 1980s. There is a great deal to learn from the reports that were written on that by Dr. Anton Trant and some of the people in Trinity College. There is much to learn from just how easily teachers adapted to that, how successful they were in applying it and how trustworthy the outcomes of that assessment were in reassuring parents, employers and people going on to second level.

Deputy Seán Kyne

I was probably one of last to do the old group certificate examination in 1989 or so. I am not sure what the rationale was for the examination but it was scrapped around that time.

Vice Chairman

It was to keep you out of trouble.

Deputy Seán Kyne

Possibly. Perhaps it was to stop children going into the intermediate certificate cold at the time, and that is probably one of the reasons we should maintain a junior certificate examination. I agree with the concept of continuing assessment. There are children who need reassurance that they are on the right track and that they are able for the cycle. Other children need to be challenged because it is so simple for them. They have three years to get the examination and they just want to get the results and move on to the next stage. It is a combination of reassurance and providing a challenge for those who require it. Which industry bodies have been consulted as to what they consider should be the correct statements of learning?

I have dealt with an individual who is involved in recruitment for multinational companies here. We are well aware of the qualifications highly skilled foreign workers might have in software, mathematics and so forth, but he said there are even more basic requirements. He gave the example of getting somebody to read a document and summarise it. Often Irish students will produce a 20 page summary when the company requires a two page one. He said it is the basics of presentation, skills and writing that are just as important as the other skills we all know about, such as mathematics. The delegate mentioned debating. I presume project presentation will be part of the assessments and statements of learning.

Mr. John Hammond

The further point made by the Deputy to the effect that the curriculum on paper is one thing, while the mediated or realised curriculum in schools is something else also is valid. There is no question but that it takes an effective implementation strategy and a well resourced implementation plan to achieve the change from what is written on paper to what is realised within the classroom. I further take the point regarding the Deputy's emphasis on a whole-school approach towards the change. If the junior cycle developments do not permeate the whole school and if the whole school is not involved in thinking about and working on the junior cycle developments, they are doomed to more limited success than we would hope.

However, it is important to stress it is not simply assessment that is changing in the context of the junior cycle developments. When we went out to schools during the consultation process and asked whole schools and full gatherings of staffs and so on what did they consider needed to change, they responded that teachers needed more time for teaching and learning and one way to achieve this was to change the nature of the curriculum specifications. For example, we are talking about shorter curriculum specifications, that is, a shorter allocation of time for each subject and less content within each subject in order that teachers have more time and space to devote to the quality of teaching and learning in the classroom.

At management level, schools asked for greater flexibility. They stated the curriculum was overloaded and prevented them from being creative and innovative in respect of what they offered within their junior cycle programmes. Consequently, we have introduced the idea of greater flexibility. As the Deputy suggested, it will lead to difference among schools but it also will give schools the flexibility to respond more directly to the needs of the students who are presenting themselves in the first place and who are being disengaged by the current arrangements. Above all, however, and to return to the point the Deputy made at the outset about the assessment tail wagging the curriculum dog, schools themselves stated at every turn and at every meeting we attended that unless the assessment arrangements change, nothing else would. We do not apologise for highlighting assessment change as a key lever of change. On the other hand, it is not the only thing that is changing. The entire basis on which schools can organise their junior cycle programme is changing and for the teacher in the classroom, the manner in which he or she interacts with his or her subject through the curriculum specifications also is changing. When one adds all this up, it presents the potential, which is how we would describe it, for a much greater level of change across the board then we have had heretofore at junior cycle. However, the Deputy is absolutely correct to suggest that implementation is the next phase of the work. Getting teachers involved in every school in thinking about the junior cycle and about what they wish to achieve in that cycle is the next stage of the work.

In addition, the overriding point made by Deputy Conaghan in this context about the potential within the junior cycle developments for more diversified learning environments is critical. I refer to all the research that underscores the junior cycle developments. We commissioned research from the ESRI that followed the cohort of students right through the six years of their post-primary experience and many of the recommendations within the junior cycle developments are based on that study. One point made repeatedly within that study and to which Deputy Conaghan has referred is the liking students have for active learning, for learning on their feet, through external challenges or through the outdoors and so on. That idea of exposing more students more often to diversified learning environments, which is intrinsic to junior cycle developments, is a very important part of the developments. Mr. Halbert may wish to add to that.

Mr. John Halbert

A point was raised around the origin of the key skills we have included. It is important to re-emphasise that these skills are not just focused on making people better participants in the labour market, quite the reverse. They are designed to make people better people. In that scenario, if one makes a person a better person and a better learner, the effect is that they will become better at all aspects of their lives.

I was asked where they have come from. They have come from a variety of places, and there are similar issues in Australia, Canada and New Zealand and in regard to work based on the OECD concerning key competences within Europe. We feel strongly that they have a payback for the person's capacity to participate in the market but they are essentially to make people better people. This is why we believe they are important.

Vice Chairman

On behalf on the committee, I thank the NCCA representatives for attending and engaging in such a worthwhile discussion on a topic affecting so many young people. I hope we will have further discussions on other aspects to the satisfaction of all Deputies.

The committee went into private session at 3.31 p.m. and resumed in public session at 3.33 p.m.

Vice Chairman

I welcome Mr. Luke McTernan, Ms Lisa Murray Sheehy, Mr. Tiarnan Fallon Verbruggen, Mr. Leo Cauneen and Mr. Tom Leahy, who are all Dáil na nÓg council members.

I ask Mr. Fallon Verbruggen to begin the presentations.

Mr. Tiarnan Fallon Verbruggen

I am from the County Wicklow Comhairle na nÓg and a Dáil na nÓg member. On behalf of the entire Dáil na nÓg council and all the local Comhairle na nÓg, I thank the committee for this opportunity to attend. We will take a moment to introduce ourselves.

Mr. Leo Cauneen

I am Leo Cauneen from the County Roscommon Comhairle na nÓg.

Mr. Luke McTernan

I am Luke McTernan from the County Leitrim Comhairle na nÓg.

Ms Lisa Murray Sheehy

I am Lisa Murray Sheehy from the County Limerick Comhairle na nÓg.

Mr. Tiarnan Fallon Verbruggen

Dáil na nÓg is the annual national youth parliament for young people aged 12 to 18 and 200 delegates are elected to Dáil na nÓg through their local Comhairle na nÓg.

Mr. Luke McTernan

Members might ask what Dáil na nÓg is. Each of the 34 Comhairle na nÓg elects one delegate to become a member of the Dáil na nÓg council. The council meets once a month and works on the themes selected and voted on at Dáil na nÓg annual general meetings. We are facilitated and supported by great staff from the Department of Children and Youth Affairs and the National Youth Council of Ireland. The role of Dáil na nÓg councillors is as follows: to follow up on recommendations from Dáil na nÓg and work to make changes for young people in those areas; to research the top issues voted at Dáil na nÓg; to prepare arguments and presentations for adult policy makers; and to represent the young people who took part in Dáil na nÓg and the young people in their Comhairle na nÓg.

Mr. Leo Cauneen

Each year, two themes are discussed at Dáil na nÓg. The two themes for 2010 were equality of access to education and mental health. The top recommendation under "equality of access to education" was that the Department of Education and Skills should lengthen the leaving certificate cycle to three years and reduce the junior certificate cycle to two years. The top recommendation under "mental health" was that the Irish Government should enforce a law that all altered advertisements or images must indicate that they have been altered by means of a symbol and text.

Ms Lisa Murray Sheehy

I will outline our work on mental health. We met the Advertising Standards Authority of Ireland, ASAI. The ASAI code covers advertising in Irish media. As with national legislation, it does not have jurisdiction over media imported from other jurisdictions. As neither the Government nor the ASAI have any control over advertisements or image in media from outside Ireland, we decided to change the focus of our work. Through our research, we discovered that there is no national data on teenagers' body image, such as the State of the Nation's Children report. We decided to do a survey of young people on this topic, which is the yellow survey in the pack supplied to committee members. Researchers from UCC helped us to develop a survey, which is currently being completed by young people in all 34 Comhairle na nÓg. It has received a great reaction because we had such a huge influence in every aspect of the survey, from the design to the words. The results will be analysed later this year and we plan to launch a report of the findings early in 2012.

I will now outline our work on the education theme. Following Dáil na nÓg 2010, the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, NCCA, announced a consultation process on reform of the junior cycle. At the first meeting of the Dáil na nÓg council in May 2010, members decided that the council should take the opportunity of influencing the NCCA's consultation process. They proposed a special consultation for young people to discuss the ideas presented by the NCCA, and this consultation took place on 13 November 2010 in Dublin Castle, with 88 young people from the ages of 12 to 18 from Comhairle na nÓg all over the country in attendance. The main aim of the consultation was to encourage young people to think outside the box and we emphasised "blue sky" thinking. After the consultation, a report was written with the main findings and recommendations.

Mr. Tiarnan Fallon Verbruggen

Our report on our consultations with young people on the junior cycle was launched by the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Ruairí Quinn, and the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald, on 11 July 2011. It is the blue booklet in the handout.

A number of findings came out of the report. First, students noted the transition from primary school to secondary school can be a very stressful one. They suggested introductory sessions in sixth class, visits to second-level schools and teachers to explain how it all works, mentoring and buddy programmes in first year, as well as more clubs, social activities and team-building exercises. They also noted that school maps and designated first year classrooms were ways of alleviating stress.

SPHE, CSPE, English and maths were the only subjects that young people agreed should be compulsory in junior cycle. Students believe that schools should not be allowed to develop their own courses and they want a broad range of taster subjects in first year, as it is difficult to choose which subjects they like and which they want to go on and study. Young people believe that the essential skills and subjects they need at junior cycle are those of life skills and social skills, so more classes and time should be allocated to SPHE and CSPE. They also noted that the courses and teaching of SPHE and CSPE need to be improved. Issues such as sexuality, sex education, personal health, alcohol and drug abuse prevention, politics and study skills need to be covered. SPHE should not be taught by religion teachers. Instead, outside experts should come into the schools to support students with their life-skills issues.

Mr. Luke McTernan

With regard to making learning more enjoyable, sports, arts-based activities and life skills are excellent subjects for the junior certificate cycle because they are fun, interesting and practical, and they encourage creativity and self-expression. Good teaching and support from one's family and friends also make learning more enjoyable.

On new teaching methods, students suggested all students should experience success at school, not just academically but socially; more positive feedback; encouragement; more interesting and fun teaching methods; and constructive criticism. With regard to feedback and assessment, students suggested there should be positive feedback and the assessment of activities that we enjoy learning, such as physical education, dance, drama and computers. Feedback on exam performance should be detailed.

Mr. Leo Cauneen

The report found the current form of assessment is too exam focused. It is a negative form of assessment, involving a memory test, and does not take into account the different abilities of students.

On continuous assessment and exams, there were mixed feelings among young people. Some feel small examinations are a great idea while others believe they would be more stressful and minimise the importance of the end-of-year examination. Those who support continuous assessment believe it would relieve stress and encourage individuality. Students suggested the practical assessment of subjects, including the taking into account of portfolios, journals, projects, presentations, group work, quizzes, interviews and homework assignments.

There should be more student participation in decision making. Students want to be involved in decision-making on the assessment of teachers and curriculum development, and to be involved in decision-making within schools. Students believe their participation in decision-making should not only be done through student councils, but should become a part of everything done in schools.

We welcome the Minister's recent comments that the junior certificate examination has a serious, negative backwash effect on students' learning and is out of line with international practice, and that students are not developing the skills they need to learn, live and work. We also welcome the Minister's proposals that a maximum of eight subjects be taken for junior certificate and that 50% of final junior certificate marks be given through continuous assessment.

Ms Lisa Murray Sheehy

What can members do to help us? They can put pressure on the Minister for Education and Skills to give young people a strong voice in educational matters, put more emphasis on practical and creative subjects in the junior cycle, improve SPHE and CSPE, ease the transition from primary to secondary school, and ensure that the junior certificate cycle is about learning for life and not just for an examination.

Committee members should support and work with their local Comhairle na nÓg and attend its annual general meeting. They should ensure Comhairle na nÓg is adequately funded and put teenage issues on their party agendas. I refer to the top, not the bottom, considering that young people are the future.

I thank the members for listening to our presentation and invite them to ask questions they may have.

Deputy Brendan Smith

I join the Vice Chairman in welcoming the representatives of Dáil na nÓg this afternoon. It is great to have such well-prepared presentation by young people who are students. I once had the opportunity to attend a meeting of Dáil na nÓg in Croke Park. I attended meetings of Comhairle na nÓg in my constituency on a number of occasions. I always found them very practical, and good subjects were always discussed in any given year. This presentation is particularly timely in view of the statements of the NCCA representatives.

It is important that we all get the opportunity to attend meetings of Comhairle na nÓg. The issues affecting young people should be at the top of the agenda of every political party and organisation in the country.

Deputy Lyons and I referred earlier to the need for an implementation plan to be drawn up as soon as possible in regard to the new junior certificate cycle. The representatives' concluding remarks are very relevant in that context. I am sure we will have an opportunity again to put those views to the Minister and the NCCA.

I see the students want to put more pressure on themselves by participating in the assessment of the teachers.

I compliment the representatives on their very well-presented and well-argued case.

Deputy Seán Crowe

I welcome the delegates and congratulate them on their survey. I did not realise that research had not been done in this area. It is clearly work that needs to be done. I congratulate the person who came up with the idea and look forward to the results of the survey.

The representatives will have heard the discussion earlier and will have noted the issues raised, including by members. They say they are not in favour of schools developing their own courses. Will they expand on this?

The representatives referred to the importance of feedback and the encouragement of pupils. How important are these? Are they missing in the system at present?

The main issue is the number of young people in school without literary and numeracy skills. Have the representatives any ideas on how this can be addressed on the basis of their having spoken to their peers? Is the problem associated with teaching and cramming for examinations or with what is happening outside the school?

Mr. Tiarnan Fallon Verbruggen

Deputy Lyons referred to schools developing their own courses. Students do not want schools to develop their own. Some believe there is already a gap in the education system between fee-paying and public schools and feel the one area of level ground is the common curriculum. All students must ultimately be examined in the same paper. If one gives schools a mandate to set up their own courses and curricula, there will be a seesaw effect. Some will develop very high-quality courses in great depth and others, perhaps because they do not have the correct facilities available, will not produce courses that are as in-depth and good. Thus, there will be an unequal balance. The report notes that students find it easier to learn subjects when they are offered constructive criticism rather than a letter grade which does not show what they are doing right or wrong. They want teachers to go beyond giving marks to engage with them and tell them how they can improve.

Deputy Anthony Lawlor

The representative should submit the survey to the Joint Committee on Health and Children when it has been completed. Its findings can make an important contribution to improving mental health among young people.

I was fascinated to hear Irish was not popular as a compulsory subject for the junior certificate. Would the same apply at leaving certificate level? In a recent discussion with the German ambassador, one of the issues he raised repeatedly was language skills. He referred to the languages required for the jobs of the future rather than our own language. German companies based in Ireland find it difficult to recruit Irish staff because their language skills are too poor. I ask for a comment on that issue.

Mr. Tiarnan Fallon Verbruggen

We are here with a mandate to speak on behalf of the students who attended the Dáil na nÓg consultations. The proposals presented do not necessarily reflect our personal views. The students did not believe Irish should be a compulsory subject. Many of them were sufficiently interested in it to study it as an optional subject but others felt that Irish is unfair or did not like languages in general. Perhaps some of them would prefer to excel in European languages or Chinese and wanted these doors to be opened to them. Instead of forcing everyone to study Irish, thereby creating negative associations, offering students a course that allows them to study the language in their own way might foster a greater willingness to learn.

Mr. Leo Cauneen

Most of those who wanted to retain Irish as a compulsory language attended Gaelscoileanna. This indicates that the problem arises from the way Irish is being taught and if the curriculum was changed views might also change.

Mr. Luke McTernan

Students who go to the Gaeltacht for the summer and have a great time tend to learn more Irish when they return. Classes at second level, and even third level, need to be more hands-on and interesting. If students have a bit of craic while learning a language, it will stay in their memories much longer than if it was written on the board and learned by rote.

Deputy Anthony Lawlor

I completely agree with the representatives. Irish is a living language but it is being taught as if it was dead. Latin was taught in the same way when I was in school. That is why it is gone.

Vice Chairman

Does Deputy Conaghan care to regale us with his Latin days?

Deputy Michael Conaghan

I understand Latin is far from gone. Did the representatives have an opportunity to reflect on the role of family and the balance of responsibility between family and school in regard to alcohol, drugs and sex education?

Mr. Tiarnan Fallon Verbruggen

The report identified private life and the home as the primary settings where these skills are learned. Most young people tend to pick them up without the need for a formal educational basis but those who do not face a wide gap. This is why we believe they need to covered in the formal education system.

The issue of mental health has been raised on many occasions and it will not go away. Before we can tell students to learn we have to help them to know themselves and be happy. We welcome that the Minister's focus is on the six key skills on the well-being of the student.

Deputy Michael Conaghan

Where does the balance lie? Is it primarily in the school or the home?

Ms Lisa Murray Sheehy

As the issue was not discussed during the consultations, we cannot answer.

Vice Chairman

While schools are tasked with teaching subjects and moulding people into good citizens, parents also have a role to play in empowering their children.

Deputy Seán Kyne

Coming from a Gaeltacht area, I would not share the views held by many broadcasters and newspapers regarding Irish. There is an appetite in my community to retain Irish as a compulsory subject at junior certificate and leaving certificate level. I agree with Deputy Lawlor regarding the way it is taught, however.

Like Ms Murray Sheehy I want an independent third party to come to schools to speak about mental health, rather than a teacher who might have given out to or roared at a student half an hour previously and is then trying to be nice and listening to that student's thoughts. One might feel more comfortable about disclosing one's information to an independent third party whom one does not know as well.

Ms Lisa Murray Sheehy

If one tells a teacher that one feels suicidal how can one look that teacher in the face during the next class? It would be very awkward for a student. Support should be available in a school all the time. People argue that normally there is a teacher to whom young people can speak but perhaps they do not want to speak to teachers. The solution is external counsellors.

Mr. Tiarnan Fallon Verbruggen

No matter what system is in place, if the students are not happy they will not learn. This is the most important point.

Deputy Anthony Lawlor

On 1 December, which is a Thursday, a safeTALK course will take place here. I was the only attendee at the previous course which was held on a Friday. I encourage members to attend. The more people in the community who have completed such a course the more people who will be able to recognise those with suicidal tendencies or thoughts.

Vice Chairman

On behalf of the committee I thank the officials from the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment for remaining to hear the delegation's presentation. This is how seriously they take the presentation. I agree with Deputy Lyons and other speakers that it is one of the best presentations we have heard.

I am very much taken with the discussion about body image and the mental health issues attached to it, and the recommendation to enforce the law that all altered advertising images should indicate they have been altered by means of a symbol and text. This is a practical measure we can follow up. We have to take to task the advertising industry on many of the images being promoted.

I spent 11 years teaching. We are going through very difficult times, things are very tough and they will be pretty tough for a long time. Sometimes one can dip into despair but what always cheered me up was being around young people and I have missed that terribly since I got this new job. Listening to the representatives today has given me a new sense of hope about what our country will be like in years to come. If these young people are an example of what we have coming next, then we do not have anything to worry about. Their points about the junior certificate were well made and will be taken with the respect they deserve. I definitely think the campaigning they are doing on mental health is absolutely crucial. This should be the start of a long conversation between this committee and the Dáil na nÓg council. We can work together on many of the points that have been made, not just now but over a period of time.

I thank the witnesses for attending before the committee. Did they get a day off school to come here?

Tiarnan Fallon Verbruggen

I was in college this morning.

Vice Chairman

Fair enough. That is very important. We should put it on the record that nobody missed school in order to be here today.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.10 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 16 November 2011.

JOINT COMMITTEE ON JOBS, SOCIAL PROTECTION AND EDUCATION debate - Tuesday, 15 Nov 2011

Reform of Junior Certificate Syllabus: Discussion with National Council for Curriculum and Assessment

Mr. John Hammond

Mr. John Halbert

Mr. John Hammond

Mr. John Halbert

Mr. John Hammond

Mr. John Hammond

Mr. John Halbert

Mr. John Hammond

Mr. John Hammond

Mr. John Hammond

Mr. John Halbert

Mr. Tiarnan Fallon Verbruggen

Mr. Leo Cauneen

Mr. Luke McTernan

Ms Lisa Murray Sheehy

Mr. Tiarnan Fallon Verbruggen

Mr. Luke McTernan

Mr. Leo Cauneen

Ms Lisa Murray Sheehy

Mr. Tiarnan Fallon Verbruggen

Mr. Luke McTernan

Mr. Leo Cauneen

Ms Lisa Murray Sheehy

Mr. Leo Cauneen

Ms Lisa Murray Sheehy

Ms Lisa Murray Sheehy

Mr. Tiarnan Fallon Verbruggen

Mr. Tiarnan Fallon Verbruggen

Mr. Leo Cauneen

Mr. Luke McTernan

Mr. Tiarnan Fallon Verbruggen

Ms Lisa Murray Sheehy

Ms Lisa Murray Sheehy

Mr. Leo Cauneen

Mr. Tiarnan Fallon Verbruggen

Mr. Luke McTernan

Ms Lisa Murray Sheehy

Ms Lisa Murray Sheehy

Mr. Leo Cauneen

Ms Lisa Murray Sheehy

Mr. Tiarnan Fallon Verbruggen

Mr. Leo Cauneen

Mr. Luke McTernan

Ms Lisa Murray Sheehy

Mr. Tiarnan Fallon Verbruggen

Tiarnan Fallon Verbruggen

JOINT COMMITTEE ON JOBS, SOCIAL PROTECTION AND EDUCATION debate -
Tuesday, 15 Nov 2011