The purpose of today's meeting is to continue our engagement on matters of policing the city centre, the far right and protests. We will also discuss resources for An Garda Síochána and examine the events in Dublin two weeks ago. We have met the Garda Commissioner and we are due to meet the Minister for Justice today. However, the Minister has been delayed at a Cabinet meeting. We will suspend for ten minutes to allow the Minister to get here. When we resume, Senator Ward will take the Chair.
Policing Matters: Discussion (Resumed)
Sitting suspended at 9.37 a.m. and resumed at 9.46 a.m.
Apologies have been received from Deputy Niamh Smyth. The Chair has had to step out and may return. I welcome the Minister to the meeting. I will invite her to make an opening statement and then I will call on members of the committee to ask questions in the order in which they indicate to me. We operate on a rota system, with each member getting five minutes initially, to engage with the business. It is important to note that the five minutes is for both questions and answers. Therefore, it is essential that members put their questions succinctly to witnesses and that the witnesses be succinct in their responses. We can then have a second round of three minutes, if required.
I remind members about the protocols on mobile phones interfering with the sound system, so please turn them off or turn them to silent. I now call on the Minister to make her opening statement.
My apologies; our Cabinet meeting went on a bit longer than anticipated. If it is helpful, I can read the statement to the committee. I think members would have heard a lot of the information over the last few days anyway. If it is helpful, we can take it as read.
Okay, if the members are happy with that. I call on Deputy Brophy.
I would like to focus on the future, looking beyond Christmas and beyond what has happened. Over the next 12 months how would the Minister like to see the policing of demonstrations change? What level of policing can we expect, particularly in Dublin? I think people realise that due to the actions of the Minister and the Garda Commissioner, there has been a very strong uptick in the presence of gardaí and policing in Dublin. This has been very welcome during the last week and it is guaranteed up to Christmas.
Much positive work has been done regarding extra recruitment and the changes that have been made. What are the plans to take this work into 2024?
As the Deputy has said, a lot of work is under way looking to the year ahead. This is not just in terms of new laws and legislation but also in terms of overall resourcing and structural changes in An Garda Síochána, focused on policing, not just in the city centre, but also more broadly. We introduced and passed body-worn camera legislation last week in the Dáil.
A pilot programme be will rolled out, starting with the inner city. It will be expanded beyond that. We will make sure that no matter where gardaí are, be it in rural or urban settings, they will have body-worn cameras to assist them in policing any type of protest or issue that might arise from protests and responding to any types of crimes. This is something that will be very welcome and has been sought for some time. Connected to that legislation are amendments around CCTV. For some time, colleagues in the House have called for changes in respect of issues relating to the general data protection regulation, GDPR, that have arisen and that prevented some communities from putting up CCTV cameras. Time and again, whether it is in our city centres or rural areas, gardaí say CCTV is a significant tool for them and helps in responding to burglaries, thefts, assaults or whatever else might be happening on our streets in rural and urban areas.
Obviously, having more gardaí is a big ambition for next year. There have been 640 entrants to the Garda college, 135 in February, 154 in May, 174 in July and 177 in October. There will be a final class on 27 December. The objective had always been 1,000 this year over five classes. Once I came back in June, I said that would not be achievable and what we are now looking at is between 700 and 800. Those numbers will start to come into our towns and villages next year. Of the second class of May, 153 will graduate next Friday. Many of them will be in Dublin, as well as across the country, and they will be on the beat a month earlier than planned.
A significant number of demonstrations, almost 800, were policed throughout the year. The vast majority of those went off without any issues. Gardaí have always used a graduated response. It is important that we continue to allow them to use their judgment in responding to any demonstration that arises. Of course, we know there have been some very challenging protests. In terms of the Dublin metropolitan region, I understand the figures to September indicated there had been 43 arrests. The idea that protests are happening and nothing is being done by gardaí is simply not the case. Where there have been assaults or other issues have arisen, there have been arrests and I trust that will continue.
More broadly, and looking at what happened a week and a half ago, the Commissioner has already moved to purchase better equipment and ensure that more gardaí are trained in public order duties. What we saw on that Thursday was the largest ever mobilisation of our public order units. However, the Commissioner has been clear that he wants more people to be trained. That is happening. Some of that training will be done by the end of the year. Obviously, that will continue into next year.
I have written to the Policing Authority to ask it to advise me as to what might enhance or support gardaí in responding to these types of situations. I have asked not just about their lawful powers but also any other types of equipment they might require. We do not want to see this type of riot happening ever again, but should something happen we need to make sure we have as many people as possible trained as well as the resources that we need available to us. The Commissioner is also looking at water cannons. Water cannons have come from our colleagues in the North, but we need to consider whether we need to look beyond that.
A massive change is happening in the structure of how gardaí work. The roll out of the new operational model means we will have community policing teams across the country. Every individual will know who the community garda is in their area. That is what people want and we need to make sure that the more gardaí we have the more community policing teams are populated. Separate to that is the roll out of community safety partnerships. Gardaí will play a vital role in rolling out these new partnerships which will look at community safety from a different lens than before. They will work with education, health, local authority members and local authorities and make sure plans are putting in place right across the country.
There are a lot of plans in place. Obviously, responding specifically to the incident on 23 November, lessons will always need to be learned. That will always be the case. We are moving forward. We are looking ahead to see what more we can do. Whatever the Commissioner and gardaí need, I will support them.
I want to talk to the Minister about where her responsibilities and those of the Garda Commissioner lie because whenever we put forward parliamentary questions or engage with the Minister in the House, questions are frequently answered to the effect that she has no official responsibility for a matter and that it is an operational matter for the Garda Commissioner. The Ceann Comhairle regularly sends me letters when I ask about overtime or the provision of resources stating that it is nothing to do with the Minister but is instead the responsibility of the Garda Commissioner. That is why, last week I was interested when Fine Gael sent out a social media post stating:
Justice Minister @HMcEntee has fast-tracked the attestation of trainee Garda in Templemore, meaning we will see more Gardaí on the beat before Christmas. This is another way Fine Gael is building stronger, safer communities.
However, when my colleague, Deputy Alan Kelly, put down a parliamentary question to ask if this had anything to do with Minister she had to admit, as Minister, that:
As Minister I cannot seek to direct the Commissioner in relation to such matters and I had no role in his decision to move forward the attestation date from the 12th January 2024 to the 15th December 2023.
The issue is that the political party of which the Minister is a member is giving the impression to the public that she has fast-tracked more gardaí to be trained when she did not. Does she have a response to that?
First, the Garda Commissioner obviously engaged with me before that decision was taken. I of course supported that decision, but it is not my decision. I want to be very clear on that.
Would you ask Fine Gael to take down the tweet and stop sending out things that are not true?
I am very clear here. My decision is not to bring gardaí out early.
The problem is that in a number of your public pronouncements since the riot two weeks ago, you have been contradicted on a number of occasions. Bob Collins said he did not receive communication from you regarding seeking advice on the use of force. I am not necessarily minded to believe Twitter, but it has contradicted you on statements you made regarding its engagement with gardaí on poisonous social media content. You have had to contradict, in a parliamentary question, this politicisation of Garda resources by your political party. I wonder what you are going to do to assure us that when you say something we can have confidence in it because you have been contradicted by Bob Collins, the chair of the Policing Authority. You have been contradicted by Twitter and your own parliamentary question on your party's political postings on social media.
Deputy, I ask you not to refer to people who are not here by name, notwithstanding the fact that information may be in the public domain. We need to remember that this is about policing specifically.
The gentleman is the chair of the Policing Authority.
I know, but he is not here to accept or reject what you are saying. I ask you not to refer to him.
It is on the public record.
I know, and I am asking you not to refer to him by name as is the protocol and the convention of this House.
Okay. The chair of the Policing Authority has contradicted the Minister's utterances.
First, I have never claimed to be able to bring gardaí out of Templemore early. I am very clear on that. The response to your question is the response you would have gotten, irrespective of any other posts. The Garda Commissioner of course engaged with me before that decision was taken and it is a very positive decision. Instead of 153 members coming out on 12 January, 153 will be coming out on 16 December. They will deployed in stations. Unfortunately for them, they will graduate on Friday and be out on the street and working the following day. Obviously, we can all appreciate that is what is needed and welcome.
The Garda Commissioner made that decision, but he engaged and consulted with me before that. I welcomed and supported that. I think we all support that decision, and I am very clear on that. My answer in any parliamentary question would be the same. As the Deputy has said, I do not have operational roles in how gardaí are allocated, where they go or when they graduate. That has always been the case.
It might be a good move to have a word with the Fine Gael press office. Do you think it is appropriate at this stage for you to apologise for using the terms "scumbag" and "scumbags" on the floor of the House?
I will come back on the other questions because you have raised points around the Policing Authority and Twitter. Very soon after the riots on the Thursday night, I met members of An Garda Síochána in a number of stations across the city. I was in Pearse Street, Store Street, Bridewell and Heuston Station where gardaí monitor a lot of CCTV footage. What was said very clearly to me and the Taoiseach by members who had responded to the riots on the Thursday was that they had not had as positive an engagement with one particular social media platform as they wanted. That is what I have relayed.
I have had an initial report of what happened on the day but I have also asked the Commissioner for a broader report. Once I receive that, I will engage with those companies. I have reflected clearly, and the Taoiseach was clear as well, what was said directly to us by Garda members who were working on the ground. I am not going to contradict what they said to me. I will get a report from the Commissioner, but I am engaging with Garda members and that is exactly what they said and what I repeated. We can all see there was information on all social media platforms, but it is important to understand how companies engaged. Obviously, Coimisiún na Meán is there to do so as well. When issues are raised directly with me by Garda members, however, I want to respond and be able to support them in their work.
Before I wrote to the Policing Authority or said anything publicly about this, I engaged with it and made clear what I would be asking of it. The wording I have put into this is in line with the codes of conduct Garda members have. I asked whether the authority could advise me, having regard to the changed environment post Covid along with the growth of social media, as to what else might enhance policing performance and support Garda members in the exercise of their lawful powers in circumstances such as arose on the Thursday. Garda members' lawful powers include the use of force, and I have not asked the Policing Authority to outline exactly when Garda members should use force or how they should use force, nor to look at their training given they have very clear training in Templemore, nor to look at their codes of conduct, which are clear. I have asked it to confirm, essentially, that Garda members can use their powers. When I met Garda members a day or two after the riots, they said directly to me that some of them do not feel comfortable in using those powers, even when they face situations like they did on the Thursday.
The Garda Commissioner, in response, wrote to all members saying they had his full support to use force where necessary and appropriate in line with their training. Obviously, I do not have any role in this but I said we support them and trust their judgment in responding to these scenarios. Many Garda members will never have to use force and that is a positive thing. What I was asking the authority to do, and I am happy to clarify this if there is a misunderstanding, was to reiterate that and support Garda members in fulfilling their policing powers, obligations and ability to respond in the way they have been trained. That was what was asked of the authority and directed to it before the letter was even written. I was not aware there was a misunderstanding or a different interpretation of what I was saying. I have great respect for the chairperson of the authority and have worked very well, as we all have, with him over recent years, but that is what I asked and said clearly in public. There should be no misunderstanding of what I was asking, and that is clear in the letter.
I thank the Minister. On Monday, a man in the prison system who has been both a victim of violence throughout his life, including in his childhood, and a perpetrator of violence, which led him to the prison system, directed me to somebody I had not previously come across in my work, although the Minister might have done so. His name is Professor James Gilligan. I have spent a lot of time since Monday reading his work. He has done work with the WHO and has been a psychologist in prison systems throughout the US. I found his work fascinating insofar as I had the capacity to read it within a week. For me, while we can look at policing responses, it is always about looking at the bigger picture.
My question relates to the idea of law and order and the notion a justice Department or Minister has to respond to violence or crime with yet more punishment and policing. I do not think that should be the only role of the justice Department. In the context of the root causes of violence, we might focus on advanced democracies and economies for the moment. The United States has the highest rates of violence and murder, but it also has the highest rates of policing, there is still the death penalty in some states and it has the highest number of people in prison. Moreover, as Professor Gilligan points out, the greater the gap between the rich and the poor in a country, the higher the incidence of violence and murder, and the US is an example of that. Europe is slightly better in that regard, but as that gap widens, we see an increase in violence and crime. Can the justice Department begin, in parallel to policing situations, to look at the other aspect? One aspect is policing crime and the other is ending crime, but they are two different things that require totally different responses. When we think of law and order, we do not think of ending crime but of a police state approach.
Is the Department undertaking, or will it undertake, empirical research into the root causes of violence, such as inequality, structural violence or adverse childhood experiences? Obviously, the goal should be to end violence, but we will not end violence with violence. When we increase the powers of police, we increase the capacity for violence on violence. If violence ended violence, one person responding with violence to someone shooting them in a family or gang feud would resolve the issue. Rather, it goes back and forth. Is the Department looking at, or will it look at, independent research on the root causes of violence and how to end it, rather than only how to police it?
How does the Minister, who has responsibility for justice, view her role in ending, rather than just policing, violence? What does the idea of Fine Gael being the party of law and order mean when it comes to ending violence?
We have worked well on the issue of spent convictions and I would love to see progress on the legislation before any election. One of the men who works from my office is still in prison at Loughan House and he said something crucial to me on Monday. He is serving a life sentence but he has earned degrees, done work for my office and presented to the justice committee previously. Nevertheless, he said he will be welcomed back into crime more quickly on his release than he will be into society or the workplace, and that, obviously, perpetuates people re-engaging in violence and criminality. How can we move along the spent convictions legislation in order that we can reduce instances of crime and violence?
People might have an idea in their head of what law and order is, but I have a particular idea and it is not just about how we can police more and have stronger powers for the Garda. That is part of it, and it is important, when we see more Garda members being assaulted on our streets when doing their job and protecting all of us, that they be protected, that the laws be strong and that their resources be strong. That is why, when we increased the funding, as we have over recent years, it is to make sure the Garda has the tools, the technology, the equipment, the funding, the resourcing and the numbers it needs to be able to police effectively.
On the other hand, I fully accept we need to look at the root causes of crime, how we can prevent it and how we can support communities where it is more of an issue than in others, and the way to do that is through education and supporting people at a younger age. Working on youth justice with the Minister of State, Deputy Browne, who has overall responsibility, I know the funding in that regard has doubled in the past three years. By the end of this year, there will be full coverage when it comes to youth intervention programmes, which we have not had to date, but we need to go so much further. What we are looking at now is not just the typical programme that engages with young people at an antisocial behaviour level before it crosses a threshold and they go into the criminal justice system, but also where people are now in the criminal justice system and from a much younger age.
We have programmes that target eight-, nine-, ten- or 11-year-olds, which is awful but that is where need to be, unfortunately, so there is a question as to how we can expand that further, and the more money we can invest in it, the more we can expand. We had additional funding this year and, on top of that, I got additional funding for the joint agency response to crime, JARC, programme, which is a greater wraparound support, service or monitoring system, to a certain extent, to work with prolific younger people. To the Senator's point, if somebody comes out of prison, it is an easier route for them to go back into crime, so it is about how we can make that less easy for them.
Sometimes it is a matter of leading people by the hand; at other times it is a matter of having to be more focused and putting greater observation around them, so to speak, through the Probation Service, working with the Prison Service and the Garda. The community safety partnerships are all about how we get to the root causes, how we address issues in the community-----
In every academic study, poverty is indicated as the main driver of violence and crime. Ending poverty does not begin at eight or nine; it is a societal thing. Keeping that in mind, I understand the interventions to which the Minister refers, but the whole picture shows that the narrower the gap between rich and poor in a country, the fewer instances of violence and crime there. What, therefore, is the Department's role in reducing or ending poverty? That is a justice response.
It is an important issue, Senator, but I have given the Minister leeway so I want to let her answer the question and then-----
That is a whole-of-government response and it is a matter of making sure that communities are supported. Senator Ruane will see even in the most recent budget that so much focus was placed on making sure that those communities that are most impacted by the cost of living, the increase in energy costs and the increase in costs more generally are directly supported and that we see those increased supports for one-parent families and people on the minimum wage. Obviously, the Department of Justice is part of that, but we need to make sure we look at the root causes of crime and how the justice system can respond and how we respond to take people out of crime. The mental health task force, which was established by my Department, working with the Department of Health, focuses specifically on how we can support people because such a high proportion of people in our prisons have mental health problems or drug addiction problems. It is a question of how we stop that revolving door in order that when they come out they have the supports and the resources, while also acknowledging that where people commit crimes, they have to serve appropriate sentences.
I am doing a lot of work. We have established a victims' forum, looking at all kinds of victims and the area of domestic violence. For so many people who are victims of violence in the home from a young age, that has an impact on them and on how they live their lives, so dealing with the root causes of that can have a positive impact. It is about making sure the Garda is resourced. We have to make sure it is.
As regards the week before last, no personal circumstance forced anybody to set a bus alight, to attack a member of An Garda Síochána or to loot. We cannot excuse that. At the same time, however, I absolutely appreciate that we have to try to support and work with people at the earliest stage possible to prevent it from ever getting to that point. That is where I see my role. It is multifaceted and it is a matter of looking at all these different approaches.
The Minister and her officials are welcome. Accusations have been levelled at her this week about her lack of contact or engagement with the communities affected in the wake of the riots. Would she like to address that?
As regards Garda resources, this is all about boots on the street. We all want to see more of that, and I welcome the intakes into Templemore. The cynic in me, however, would wonder about bringing a class in the day after St. Stephen's Day, 27 December. How does one not arrive at the conclusion that that is purely a mathematical exercise to keep up the numbers? It seems cynical to me, and I would like the Minister to address that.
Extending the Garda retirement age to 62 years has been talked about for some time now. Does the Minister have a date as to when that will come in?
The other issue is that this year we are on course for 150 members of thereabouts retiring or resigning from the force. We need to address that. It is all fine and dandy getting people to come in the front door, but if they are looking out the back door before they are due, we have a problem there and we need to address it.
In light of the unprecedented events of the past two weeks, has the Minister met the Garda staff associations and, if not, when does she intend to do so?
My first engagement was, obviously, with An Garda Síochána, working with it to make sure that it had what it needed to respond not only that Thursday but also over the weekend and into the following week. The school that was affected by this awful tragedy immediately received a response from the Department of Education, which is experienced in dealing with these types of scenarios, albeit, I am sure, not this exact type of scenario, which we hope never to see again. NEPS was on site immediately. The Minister for Education herself was engaging, and over the weekend I engaged with gardaí to understand the plans they had in place for the school in the coming week. It was on the Monday that I engaged with the principal to make sure the school was happy with the response and what was happening. I have engaged with him at a number of stages since then as well as with trustees. More recently, this week, I met with the parents. That was very much guided by them. Everything I have done has been guided by what they want and how they wanted to engage, and that will remain the case.
More broadly, many Members on the ground have engaged with the community. The Minister, Deputy Donohoe, Deputies McDonald and Hourigan and others have responded and engaged with the community groups and organisations. I have made myself available too. If they wish to engage with me, I am happy to do so.
I have engaged with representatives of the business community as well. I met with them last Thursday as part of the DublinTown organisation. Quite a number of different groups are involved. I engaged further last Saturday with the businesses to reassure them of my support. Gardaí attended those meetings as well to make sure that whatever support they needed was on the ground and with them. I am very much guided by the community and those who were impacted by what happened. I continue to be guided in that regard, and they know they have my support and that of the Garda, which is keeping me continually updated as to what is happening.
As regards Garda resources, the Commissioner and I were clear at the outset that we would have five classes this year to try to make sure we could get as many people as possible into training. That is the overall objective, whatever the date is. There are people coming out of the college next Friday and going straight into work on Saturday. It is not ideal for them, but we need our gardaí out and our new trainees in. The fifth class will go in on St. Stephen's Day. Their main work will begin in the new year. It is good that we now have a class starting off and that their training will start at the beginning of the year instead of being delayed even further. While I do not know the exact figures, 637 have gone into the classes to date. I think one has dropped off from the second class. There will always be a little dropoff, but we are on track to have between 700 and 800, and that is only a positive thing.
The retirement age is not my final decision but that of the Minister for public expenditure and reform. The body of work that needed to be done is done, and engagement is happening now. I do not have a definite date because it is not within my remit to give the committee one, but I do know that we are on track to having a positive decision. I know people want that. I want that as soon as possible because I know this impacts people the longer it goes on. People are being missed in the extension.
We do not want to see anybody retire early or resign early. Obviously, there are members who are retiring just because of their age and because they want to do so and have served their time. They are absolutely entitled to do that. With anybody who leaves early, however, it is important we understand and know why. The associations and Garda senior management have been doing exit interviews to understand what people are saying and to be able to respond and to make changes where necessary. This is 1% of the overall force. In other police forces across the world, it is about 3%, so our rate of people leaving is much lower. We have a full employment market as well, and that has an impact, but that is not in any way to move away from the fact that some people are leaving because of issues within the job. The Commissioner has been clear in saying we need to be able to respond to and to deal with any issues that people are claiming are reasons they have left. As I said, it is 1%. It is much lower than in other areas, but we do not want to see anybody leave, so I will support the Commissioner in whatever he needs to be able to respond to that.
Thank you, Minister.
I asked about the staff associations.
Very briefly, Minister.
Has the Minister met with the-----
Sorry. I will meet with them soon but I have not met with them yet. I have been engaged with the Commissioner.
I welcome the Minister. She mentioned earlier the graduated response the Garda uses. The Commissioner used that term as well, but surely the beginning of any graduated response should be prevention. Particularly when dealing with groups that are deliberately organising, the prevention should be looking at and dealing with them. The Minister says that there have been 800 protests this year, that not all of them have been difficult and that there have been some arrests, but not all such protests are organised by violent elements that, in their own words, are at war with the State.
These are violent, dangerous and antidemocratic elements and I am very concerned about the vulnerability of our State because I do not believe we take these people seriously, particularly when they themselves use words like "war" and have been telling us from the very beginning what they want to do. Yes, there have been arrests at protests but I have not seen any arrests for incitement, conspiracy or organising the violence. I have not seen any arrests in respect of the arson attack at the rumoured site of an IPAS centre on Sherrard Street. Because there was no policing response or prevention, we had another arson attack at an IPAS centre in Ballybrack. In the last week, there was an arson attack at an IPAS centre in Rosslare. All the technology and tools we can give An Garda Síochána are useless if we are not policing the right things.
In September 2022, a TD was assaulted. Deputy Paul Murphy was assaulted outside the Dáil. Under the Act, the Minister has the power to establish and revise priorities for policing. She has the power to issue written directives concerning any matter. When a TD was assaulted, which was not normal for this country, was there any revision of priorities or were there any directions concerning the violent elements that were deliberately organising and that assaulted a TD?
On that specific question, I have not been asked to make any changes. I regularly engage with the Commissioner to ensure he has the relevant powers he needs for his members who are engaged in any type of investigation dealing with a particular crime. Whether it is protests outside the Dáil, violent behaviour or rioting, I will always ask the Commissioner whether there is anything more that needs to be done and whether revisions need to be made. I am not aware that there are any. The one thing that has been brought to my attention recently as regards protests is the need for greater incitement to hatred legislation. We have the 1989 Act, which was put in place before much of what the Internet is now was invented and does not really deal with the types of violence and intimidation we are now seeing. There is a Bill going through the Seanad at the moment and I hope to have it enacted in the new year.
Gardaí have responded in the most appropriate way to many of the protests. Arrests have been made and An Garda Síochána is conducting investigations. As the Garda Commissioner said, it is not appropriate to get into what types of investigations are happening but I reassure Deputies and Senators that An Garda Síochána is taking this very seriously. I get regular updates from the Commissioner on security matters and issues and this is something that has now come to our shores. For a long time, we have seen this happening across the EU but in recent years, and not just the last year or two, it has become more of an issue here. However, you have to look at the fact that many of the individuals we may be aware of are very aware of the law and the type of language they can or cannot use so as not to cross the line. Often where we see violence occurring, it is not those who are instigating it that are present but those who have been encouraged to commit violent crimes or to be more violent or sinister. The Garda has a difficult job in that respect but, at the same time, it has dedicated teams looking at these changing dynamics. There are gardaí who are observing but also gardaí involved in investigations into different serious crimes that have happened.
Again, I regularly ask what gardaí need to be able to respond. I ask whether the organisation needs better CCTV technology, facial recognition to identify people, tougher laws on incitement to hatred or violence or greater police powers. As the Deputy will know, some of those are being advanced in legislation that is before the Houses.
The Act allows the Minister to give directions and revise priorities.
We are out of time so I ask Deputy Costello to be very brief.
I will keep my question very short. It is not just about the Minister asking the Commissioner what he needs. It is about her saying that, as a Government, we feel the State needs a certain thing or that a certain area should be a priority. There is a clear escalation here. Arson attacks are increasing. There are communities where there are vigilante patrols, where people feel law and order is breaking down and where migrants are afraid to leave their own homes. Whatever happens-----
If the Deputy wants the Minister to respond, he should let her respond now.
It is very difficult for me to give direction to the Commissioner if he feels the powers he has are sufficient for any particular case. I cannot get into what cases may or may not be-----
It is not just about powers. It is about priorities as well.
Absolutely. I engage with the Commissioner on my own priorities and those of the Government and the Department. It is important that I do not force something on the Commissioner that An Garda Síochána does not need. There is a two-way flow here and that is an important way in which we work with each other. An Garda works with Government to make sure it has what it needs and that what we provide is appropriate to those needs.
On vigilante patrols, a number of areas have been raised with me. I have liaised with the Garda. Some had not been brought to attention of the Garda so it does not have evidence but, obviously, nobody is above the law and anybody who tries to engage in this type of behaviour will receive a Garda response. Gardaí are the only people who can enforce the law. However, some of these incidents have not been brought to the attention of An Garda Síochána. If something like this is happening, people need to go the Garda. It is not acceptable and not to be tolerated.
I thank the Minister and her officials for coming in today. Since Fine Gael took over the justice Ministry in 2011, the population of the State has increased by approximately 1,400,000. However, I believe the Minister would accept that, in that time, there have been difficulties with Garda numbers, Garda morale and the presence of gardaí on the streets. They are common complaints we hear and I have no doubt that the Minister has also heard them.
I will pick up on something the Minister said in response to one of the other questions. She said she has heard that gardaí feel they cannot use their own judgment. Was that it? Did she say they felt they could not use their own judgment in effecting arrests? The justice committee was in Templemore only two weeks ago. I was impressed by the professionalism. The instructors were keen to impress on us that the college never closed. Government spokespersons have said the college closed but the instructors said that never happened. Gardaí feel under-resourced and underprotected. While the population of Dublin has increased by 30% or 40%, the Minister will agree Garda numbers have not kept pace.
Gardaí themselves feel under-resourced and underprotected. The Minister said they need the tools, technology and equipment but I was contacted by one garda from the outskirts of Dublin who said that, on the night in question two weeks ago, he went to Santry on the Thursday evening and discovered the body armour had run out and that there was none left. He felt that was a danger for members going into town. There was also no transport. We all know what had happened in town; 13 Garda vehicles were burnt. No vans were left. There were approximately 60 gardaí stranded in Santry. Some drove their own cars while others had to stop a bus and ask to be brought into the city centre. When they received their riot helmets, there was no radio transmission and they were hindered by not being able to hear commands from public order supervisors. Does the Minister accept that there has been a great failure in providing the right amount of tools, technology and equipment for gardaí who are called in to deal with a situation like that?
On the overall Garda numbers, the college was closed to new recruits. The doors might have been open but the college was closed to new recruits not just once, but twice in the last ten years.
Courses continued while that was going on.
There were no new recruits, however.
Courses continued so the college remained open.
Yes but it was closed to new recruits. If you have no new recruits coming out, you cannot increase Garda numbers. That is a simple fact.
If any Government spokesperson said it was closed, they were wrong. Is that correct?
It was closed to new recruits. If there are no new recruits coming out, there are no new recruits coming out, whether the doors are open and the lights on or not.
They should not be saying it was completely closed.
Either the Minister gets to answer the question or she does not.
I do not think the question has been answered.
What I have always said is that the college was closed to new recruits. I can clarify that but there were no new recruits coming out for almost four years out of the last ten. The first time was a result of the bailout and a number of measures having to be taken. The second time the Garda College was for reasons relating to Covid, to keep people safe. In the first instance, we manage to reignite and to move on-----
Regarding the under-resourcing and the under-protection, would the Minister accept that was the case, in particular for those who went in and that they did not have the tools, technology and equipment on the night in question?
What happened on the evening has been outlined very clearly to me. We had the largest ever mobilisation of the public order unit. We do not usually have 200 or 250 people standing around Grafton Street, O'Connell Street, Parnell Street or Santry waiting to respond. I have heard people got WhatsApps and that is how it was done. This came directly from the top, from the assistant commissioner to the various superintendents who directed the messages to them.
I do not mean to interrupt, but it is a simple question and we only have five minutes. Does the Minister accept that the gardaí did not have the technology, tools and equipment to deal with the situation on the night?
They did have equipment. We can always improve equipment and we are always doing so. I spoke to gardaí last Saturday as to how we can further improve the equipment, so when the Deputy talks about the fact the devices-----
The Minister is not answering the question, so I will move on to the next one. I think we all accept the Garda Reserve regulations need to be implemented as soon as possible. Senior gardaí have been crying out for this for the past six months at least. We now hear they are not going to be implemented, which means reserve gardaí cannot be recruited until after Easter. Will the Minister accept that she has been slow in getting the regulations implemented so that recruitment can take place? Recruitment has not taken place since 2017, as the Minister said herself.
The Deputy has asked his question.
Recruitment for the Garda Reserve will start in the new year and not at Easter, so I have moved as quickly as I can. The last stage has been engaging with the various associations and the gardaí and senior management. The intention is that the new campaign will start in the new year, along with the overall Garda recruitment campaign.
I apologise for being late for the start of the meeting but I had another meeting to attend. I thank the Minister for her opening statement. I am concerned about the debate that has taken place about the events of last Thursday week. These have been conflated with the ongoing policing problems in Dublin city. I believe the two are completely separate. What happened last Thursday week was orchestrated by the far right. It was pushed by them and people were encouraged onto the streets and incited to attack gardaí. That is a separate issue from the ongoing policing issues in Dublin. While they are related, it is a separate issue. It is important to say that. Because of that, I am concerned about the lack of response by the gardaí over the last number of years in relation to the far right. This has led these incidents taking place. I have some questions about the actual response on the day and I will get to those.
The Minister said in her opening statement that she commends each and every garda for restoring order to the streets as quickly as possible and for their ongoing efforts to bring those responsible to justice. Will there be a review in the Department as to what was done or not done on that day? Would such a review look at the lead-up to this and the policing of the far right in this State which lead to what happened on the day?
Regarding the events of the day itself, those of us in Agriculture House were evacuated at 4.30 p.m. We were told we had to leave, to get out of the city and so on. Yet the gardaí who were here last week said they did not get reinforcements until 7 p.m. How come we were told to leave 4.30 p.m. but there did not seem to be a response until 7 p.m.? That needs to be looked at and discussed as well.
While I do not have the detailed timelines in front of me, I think the Commissioner would have responded to this. It is not the case that there was no response until 7 p.m. A public order unit was on-site pretty much immediately after the assault happened that Thursday. Very soon after that another unit was brought in. Then there were many more requests, not just within the Dublin region but beyond, for those with training in public order. Obviously, it takes time for people to mobilise. Some went to Santry and others came from different areas, so it took time. The full complement was there between 6 p.m. and 7 p.m., but I do not have the exact times. As I said, I think the Commissioner responded to this.
There are always lessons to be learned, whether it is a small or a large incident. There have to be ways in which we can improve our response and see how we can do things differently and what more we need and what we did not have. The Garda Commissioner is already doing this regarding what equipment and further training we need.
I received an initial report outlining what happened on the day and the response to it. A larger report is being worked on by one of the assistant commissioners but I do not have that yet. Lessons will be learned about the Garda response and how we deal with such a situation if it arises again. Obviously, we hope that it will not.
On the policing of the far right, as I said to Deputy Costello, gardaí have been aware of this issue for some time, not just in recent weeks or months. They have ways in which their specialised teams monitor this type of behaviour. They monitor engagement not just with people here but with other groups in the UK and the EU.
Does the Minister agree that it failed?
No, I do not agree that it failed that Thursday. On the response we saw from the Garda Síochána, in other jurisdictions we have see incidents like this go on for days. This was brought to a conclusion by midnight, notwithstanding the horrific scenes that nobody wanted to see.
It should never have started in the first place.
It was a very volatile situation. Nobody could have predicted that schoolchildren would have been stabbed on our streets. I am sorry, but nobody would have woken up that Thursday and said that was going to happen. That was an awful tragedy. I spoke to the Garda Commissioner throughout the day. They were concerned about the potential for trouble. There is a large number of direct provision centres and accommodation in the area. We had to make sure those people were protected. A huge amount of work was done. We should not focus only on what happened in the riots. We should also be looking at the fact that multiple teams of gardaí worked with people in centres to make sure they were protected. The gardaí also worked with businesses, getting people to safety from their workplaces. There was a huge operation under way, separate from the work of the hundreds with public order unit gear. There was a massive mobilisation of gardaí from all over the country. This was really heartening to see, but of course there will always be lessons to be learned as to how we can respond differently.
Regarding the far right, arrests have been made. I am sure there will be further arrests, not just related to that day, but beyond. If there is more we need to do, we will do it. One element of this is to make sure we have legislation on incitement to hatred that is fit for purpose. What we have at present is not, which is why we have legislation going through the Seanad.
Would the Minister like to make a statement regarding Twitter and what it has said? I do not know if anyone asked that question already. Will the Minister give me a definition of what she considers the far right?
Regarding the attestations taking place, on 29 November on the Fine Gael website, there was a post saying that the Minister for Justice, Deputy Helen McEntee, had fast tracked the attestation of trainee gardaí in Templemore. This would mean there would be more gardaí for Christmas. However, this morning, the Minister said that she never made this claim. I would like clarification on this matter.
Regarding the number of gardaí, I do not know how we are going to do better on this and I do not envy the Minister in this task. To date this year, 237 recruits have passed out from Templemore. That is all we would have had if the class of 153 passing out next week had not been fast tracked. This class would not have been coming until January. In reality this year, the figure would have been 237, which is not great. I know this year there are 637, but at this moment in time, if we had not fast tracked those coming out on 15 December week, the figure would have been 237.
That is something I would like the Minister to deal with as well.
I am also concerned about all our commuter towns, towns and villages around the country. If gardaí are summonsed to come to Dublin, where does that leave our communities with regard to policing? I am concerned about that because we have had many burglaries in and around our areas over the past two weeks.
Those are the questions I would like the Minister to answer.
Regarding Twitter, what I said earlier is that following on from the riots, I met with members of An Garda Síochána who responded on that day. They said very clearly to me and the Taoiseach that there were certain platforms that engaged better than others. They highlighted Twitter as having not responded and not engaged in taking down certain material.
Is the Minister telling me that the statement that Twitter put out yesterday or the day before was an incorrect statement and that Twitter is misleading and putting misinformation-----
No, I am not saying that at all. I was given information by gardaí who said very clearly what happened on the day. I will be getting a larger report. The initial report I have from the Garda just outlines the steps and mobilisation of gardaí. A wider report will detail more of what was going on that day and it will include that. It was said very clearly to me by gardaí that certain platforms had engaged in a much better way than others. That is what I said in the House, that is what I relayed and that is the point I was making. I will engage with them once I receive the full report. I am not contradicting anybody rather I am saying that was what was said very clearly to me by gardaí who were working, on the ground and in their stations on that day.
On a definition of the far right, it is a political ideology or a particular view that a person has. I am not sure there is a definition.
It is a little bit like hate.
It is not a-----
I think we need to define what it is.
The Senator has a limited amount of time. If she interrupts the Minister, she will run out of time, so she should let the Minister answer the question.
What we see from many people who would claim to be far right – it is not a crime for somebody to have a particular ideology - is they act on certain matters. We have seen people to be anti-Government, anti-State, anti-immigration and anti-women’s rights, among other things. That is my view of those who claim to be far right.
Regarding attestations and overall numbers, it is a positive thing that the gardaí who were due to be attested in July are being fast-tracked. It means we have more-----
The Minister means in January.
Yes, sorry, in January. They are being attested next Friday. To the Senator’s last point, we do not want gardaí coming from all over the country and stationed in Dublin on a permanent basis. We need to make sure we have a strong response and presence in our city centre, particularly given what happened. We want people to be confident coming into the Christmas period that they can come in, socialise and shop. That does not mean other areas will be stripped of their resources and that has not happened. Some 153 new members being attested in the next week will mean there is a greater supply of gardaí not just going to Dublin but also across the country. That is important.
The Minister claims she had no role in bringing those attestations-----
I have been very clear that the Commissioner engaged-----
When will they take that down from their website?
That is not a matter for me.
That is not a matter for this-----
Okay. That is fine.
That is not a matter for me but I have been very clear that the Commissioner engaged with me.
The Minister had no role in fast-tracking.
That has already been answered.
I have already answered that. The Commissioner engaged and I very much supported it. He made that decision and I am very clear on that.
We have now gone through the first round. One contributor had to step out, so if he comes back, I will give him an opportunity. In the second round, Senator Ruane has indicated, who will be followed by Deputy Ó Ríordáin. It is three minutes this time.
Regarding the far right, there is a huge number of historical studies going back to French fascism. I am not a French speaker but Maurice Bardèche - however you pronounce his name – defined himself as a Fascist writer. He is dead now but in the sixties he wrote a book and explained exactly what right wing is because he was talking about himself quite proudly. The definitions are there from people who hold those views.
Many of my comments when I speak about crime and criminality are not in relation to people who are extremely reasoned in their own thinking in terms of their ideology. My concern is those who get collected within that who do not necessarily identify with the ideology but perhaps identify with trying to find some sort of common enemy. That common enemy in their minds is sometimes government. One group will feel failed by particular governments or historically with regard to poverty and so on. The reason they then start relating to far right ideologies or sentiments is that they see some sort of common thread, such as “that group is against them, so we will join that group and be against them too”. I feel unwilling to give over the men I have worked with for many years and continue to work with to that ideology, which is why I keep trying to bring back alternative language to give to those men.
I wish to clarify something the Minister said in her contribution. In respect of the riots, did she say there is no personal circumstance that led to people’s involvement in the riots? Was that the sentence?
No. I am saying there is no excuse or personal situation that forces a person to put something that is on fire into a Garda car. There is no personal situation that would ever force somebody to do that.
That is the problem.
You are not forced to go out onto the streets and loot, riot and burn.
That is the problem. That is the misunderstanding, because there is. Rationality and reason do not intersect in a moment like that when someone has been ostracised for years. The Minister would have to literally have done a study of all of those people who engaged. She would need to have had several therapeutic interventions with all of those people who engaged to understand their intent and understanding of what they were doing and why they were doing it. Some people who lack purpose felt that, all of a sudden, there was a purpose. Some people felt that they were finally standing up for themselves against something. The Minister would need a full analysis of the intentions of people.
Of course that does not excuse it. It does not mean that somebody should not be held accountable. However, we cannot end people’s driver towards this stuff if we do not understand the personal circumstances that lead to it. The idea that people can grow up in a community and some will commit crimes and some will not was in my own household. My brother had no involvement in crime but I very much did. People are different. Their sensitivities to the world and perspectives are different. The experiences they may have within the family, on the street and within their community are all different. Therefore, I do not think that statement is fair. That type of statement, saying there are no personal circumstances that could be the root of cause of why people will go out in a rage and get involved in something like that, does not allow us to address it. That goes back to the first conversation around causes.
I think the Senator knows me in that I absolutely believe that people can change. When I was in Cork recently, I met a group of wonderful men in a project who had spent years involved in crime, had addiction problems and other issues. I absolutely believe that people should be able to turn their lives around. Where they have inflicted pain on other people is not to say they cannot change. What I am saying is you cannot excuse what happened the other day.
I have not excused it.
I know the Senator is not excusing it.
I am saying the problem is that if we do not ask the “Why?”, it will never end.
I appreciate that but no matter what happens to someone, those individuals were not forced. We do not know what could have happened. Nobody forced those individuals to attack gardaí.
That is the failure to understand the irrationality of violence and responses.
I have to draw a line there, if that is okay.
I wish to return to the issue of the term “scumbags”.
That is not a policing issue.
It is a comment made by the Minister in response to a policing issue.
It is not a policing issue.
The Leas-Cathaoirleach will have to-----
This is meeting is about policing and that is not a policing issue.
The Minister made a comment which was in direct reflection on those who were involved in a riot.
The Leas-Cathaoirleach is not allowing me to ask this question.
I will not allow the Deputy to ask the question. It has nothing to do with business-----
(Interruptions).
That is not right.
The Leas-Cathaoirleach is guarding the Minister.
The Minister does not need me to guard her.
But the thing is, it is a policing matter.
This is a political forum.
This is a policing matter because when leaders use language, it can cause problems for the police in how they are seen and their relationship. I think the Minister is well able to answer the question.
Hold on. It is completely legitimate.
The Minister is well able to answer it.
(Interruptions).
I think this is inappropriate.
It is not about the Minister rather it is about the time of the committee. I am not here to guard the Minister.
I have three minutes to ask the question. I would have asked it by now if the Leas-Cathaoirleach had not interrupted me.
The Deputy already asked the question.
But the Leas-Cathaoirleach would not let me finish.
Okay. Go ahead with the question then. Quickly.
I want to give some context to it.
The Deputy already asked the question.
I am trying to and want to be as fair as I possibly can. There are youth workers who say their work trying to encourage young people not to fall into the trap of the far right, drug gangs and so on is being made more difficult.
There are people on the edges of all these actions, including bad actors and those who are led by bad actors. Does the Minister not accept that labelling the entirety of what happened and everybody involved, and using a phrase as classist as that, was a regrettable intervention on her part that she should reflect on and, I feel, apologise for?
I said what I said and will not take it back. It is not a term that I would normally use. People know that. It is not language that I would normally use. I said before that I do not think this was a normal situation. It is not something that I have ever seen. I was not targeting a particular group, class, area, or age-group of people. I was referring to the behaviour. Most people looking at what happened saw the burning of buses, Garda cars, looting, rioting, attacking members of An Garda Síochána and attacking other people, which I was reflecting. It is not language I would normally use, but it was not an attack on any group of people. It was not in any way targeted at an area of our city, which has been suggested. It was not a reflection of the area where this happened. It was very much an expression of what happened and the type of behaviour that happened. I think many people would agree that what we saw was just that. I have said what I said.
That is not behaviour. The term "scumbag" does not reflect behaviour.
It is a label.
That is a label.
The Minister denied that the response on the night was a failure. Does she think it was an adequate response as the afternoon developed, notwithstanding the fact that resting gardaí came in and that all gardaí who were there showed great bravery in coming in and dealing with the situation? I have outlined the chaotic scenes that they found themselves in, both in Santry and in town. Would the Minister accept that the response was slow and inadequate?
No, I do not accept that. It was an appropriate response. Lessons will always be learned but this is not a scene I have ever seen. For many gardaí, this is not something they have ever responded to. Protocols were put in place. As I mentioned earlier, the way in which gardaí were communicated with is the structure they have. That is how it is done. It is done through WhatsApp - on the phone. It starts at the point here and works its way through. There might have been individual gardaí who were sending messages themselves, but it came from the very top. There was the largest mobilisation of public order units ever. I think it was adequate and the fact that it was contained in such a short space of time-----
Does the Minister think it was adequate that gardaí had to stop a bus to get into town?
I am not sure how everybody got in. When there are so many people trying to get in, there are not 100 cars sitting in Santry waiting for people to go into the city centre. The logistics of this are pretty significant. The way in which so many gardaí got into the city centre was pretty economical.
Would the Minister not accept that having riot helmets with no radio was inadequate?
At the weekend, what they have was explained to me. With the roll-out of the new body cameras and any new equipment, it is connected to the inside. That is not there at the moment. I have allocated additional funding in every budget that I have been part of for additional equipment, including body armour. That will continue. Where there is an ask, I have responded with funding, and I will continue to do so.
Does the Minister think that gardaí were exposed to danger on the night as a result of this?
Gardaí are always exposed to danger. Of course they were.
As a result of the inadequacies, does the Minister think they were exposed to unnecessary danger?
They are always exposed to danger. No matter what situation they find themselves in, gardaí put their lives on the line every day. Obviously, I want them to have the most up-to-date, technologically advanced and best equipment they can have. Over time, one needs to improve and update. Gardaí always put themselves at risk, and they did an excellent job.
If they were better resourced and better protected, would they have been less exposed to such danger?
They would have faced the same challenges. There were people burning buses, looting and rioting, and gardaí responded in an excellent way.
I know that from the Dublin metropolitan region, DMR, south division, one sergeant and four gardaí come into Dublin city centre every day. How long does the Minister expect that drain of resources from DMR south to the city centre for extra policing to continue?
I have no sight of where gardaí are coming from. I have been given assurances that there will be a high-visibility presence right up until and during Christmas. That will obviously be revised. In the interim, 153 new members of the force will come out of Templemore. Some of them will go to Dublin. If members have come from other areas, that will help to alleviate that. Some of those 153 will go to other parts of the country. I do not have a direct line of sight of who has come from where. Obviously, additional funding was allocated for overtime. That means that there are gardaí actually stationed in Dublin central who are doing overtime. I know that is a significant ask of many people, so the more gardaí we have, the more pressure it takes off these individuals.
Does the Minister accept that it is draining resources in Rathfarnham, Tallaght, Terenure and Crumlin?
I have no idea where these gardaí are coming from. Obviously, that decision is taken by the Garda Commissioner and his teams. Resources are allocated where they are needed and how they are needed. The way to respond to any question like that is to make sure that we have more gardaí coming out of Templemore. That is a priority for me.
I might raise a few issues. Obviously, this is a discussion on policing. One criticism made in some quarters is that gardaí were not more forceful in their engagement with rioters on the streets. I have lived in different cities in Europe and I have seen forceful engagement of riot police with people in a public order scenario. I do not want to see that here. I do not want to see baton charges or water cannon. It may well be that they are necessary evils. One thing that we talked about a lot during the pandemic was policing by consent. I think the Taoiseach used that term. One thing that is unique about An Garda Síochána relative to other European police forces is how it enjoys very good relationships with the community. It is unarmed, which is a tremendously important aspect of policing in Ireland and policing by consent.
How does the Minister see policing developing in the coming years? Does she think we will see more heavy-handed interventions? I say that without any criticism. Are gardaí going to be wading into crowds if this happens again? Is there a uniquely Irish approach that we can implement that both manages a public a disorder situation but also maintains the important relationship gardaí have with the public? I heard what the Minister said about Garda discretion, which is a very important element of Garda powers. They can exercise their discretion. Many people will have benefited from a garda realising that the right answer is not to issue the ticket or not to arrest the person. I have seen that, both in my practice and in my personal life. I absolutely support the notion that gardaí would be able to exercise that discretion. How does the Minister see the future of policing, given that in the 100-year history of An Garda Síochána, we have never seen anything like the pressure it came under in Dublin two weeks ago?
One of the most positive things about An Garda Síochána is that it is, for the most part, an unarmed police force. We are the envy of many police organisations across the world because of the connection that gardaí have with their communities. It is important that we make sure that people know they can pick up the phone and call community gardaí and those who are on the beat, engaging with communities and responding to community issues, and that every community has that. That is very much part of the new operating model. There is literally a map of Ireland where each area is divided up and each person knows who their community lead and teams are. That is the future of policing, as well as the crime response teams and other specialist areas, whether in domestic, sexual and gender-based violence, online fraud, cybercrime or any other issue. That community reach, policing by consent and upholding human rights are at the heart of what we do.
We had this discussion during the Seanad debate on the Policing, Security and Community Safety Bill yesterday. It is about making sure that gardaí are connected to the communities that they serve and are reflective of the communities that they serve. It is important, in our recruitment campaigns, that we do not just have more women in An Garda Síochána but that new Irish communities are reflected too. We have seen that improve over time but we need to do better. Supporting the recruitment campaign for the Garda Reserve, which we all want to see as quickly as possible, and the graduate programme helps to encourage more new Irish communities to become members.
This in itself helps to encourage more members of new Irish communities to become gardaí. This is very important.
With regard to heavy-handed interventions, the powers of gardaí are wide ranging. They have discretion and authority to use significant police powers, including powers to stop, search, detain and arrest people, use force, take samples and conduct surveillance. These are the powers available to gardaí. For the most part we do not want to see gardaí using force. They do not need to but it is important that it is available to them. I do not think we need to change this or amend it. I do not think we need to go further. Gardaí need to be confident in what they are doing.
With regard to my point earlier on the Policing Authority, we see on the front of The Irish Times today that one in five complaints made against gardaí are for the excessive use of force but most of them do not result in a conviction. This highlights the fact that there is a reluctance because of something like this for gardaí to use these powers. I do not see us getting any more heavy-handed. I think we need gardaí to be confident in how they can respond with the powers they have.
I thank the Minister and I have another question about GSOC. The Minister has heard Garda representative organisations state that gardaí are afraid to do certain things because they are concerned it will result in a matter coming before GSOC. In the first instance I want to say that I absolutely support GSOC. The level of accountability that it has brought to policing is very important. The credibility it brings to policing is also very important because there is now an independent avenue for people who have a grievance with An Garda Síochána. We know they are right sometimes and it is important that GSOC is there. Notwithstanding this, we do hear of cases that take years sometimes to get through GSOC. During this time the garda who is the subject of a complaint or investigation is unavailable to the police force in most instances. How will we deal with this? Are specific resources being allocated to GSOC to help it to speed up its process so that gardaí can be dealt with and either exonerated or punished as is appropriate?
I agree with the Leas-Chathaoirleach that it is vital that we have an oversight body and that there is accountability. Before GSOC we had the policing complaints board. What we have here is a newer and appropriate structure. It needs to be there to give people confidence in An Garda Síochána. We have a structure at present that allows for a longer period of time and a delay. We have to eliminate either a disciplinary matter or a criminal offence in the first instance and start again on the next one. This is what causes some of the delays. This will be changed in the Policing, Security and Community Safety Bill going through the Seanad at present so that at the early stages it is identified as to whether it is a disciplinary matter or a criminal matter that needs to go in a different direction. This will reduce the timeline.
The funding has increased in the three years that I have been Minister. It has increased year on year to allow more members to be allocated so that we can speed up the process. A body of work needs to be done to make sure that if somebody makes a complaint it is dealt with and turned around quickly and the people are not sitting and waiting for years, which has been the case. At the same time, it is important to say it is not always the case that if a member of the Garda is under investigation that they are suspended. This is not always the case and we have gardaí at present who are going through investigations and who are still working and available to work. Others are not. It depends on the type of complaint or what is happening. Work needs to be done and it will happen under the new policing Bill. Resources continue to increase and support is being provided to GSOC to make sure it can do its job as efficiently and effectively as possible. It is very important that we have GSOC. It enhances people's view of gardaí in knowing there is accountability.
Deputy Ó Laoghaire had to step out to go to the Dáil Chamber for a priority question earlier so I will go to him now.
I thank the Leas-Chathaoirleach and I thank the Minister. I have been asked by Deputy Ward to step in for him. He cannot make it today and he gives his apologies. I also apologise for my own delay. Our thoughts remain with those who are recovering in hospital and we hope they are doing okay. Notwithstanding some of the concerns I have institutionally, I pay tribute to the gardaí on the ground that day for the courage and resolve they showed.
My questions will be back and forth and I ask the Minister to be as succinct as possible. I want to discuss when the Minister learned of the appalling attack on the day. The Minister's diary for the day has been published. She attended an event with the Minister for Education, Deputy Foley, at 10.30 a.m. I assume that was in the Minister's constituency. She stated she returned to Dublin after learning of the appalling attack. What time did the Minister leave her constituency for Dublin and when did she arrive?
As Deputy Ó Laoghaire has said, I was in my constituency that morning. Generally I am not there on a Thursday but the Minister for Education, Deputy Foley, was officially opening the Eureka Secondary School building so I was there for a number of hours. I was due to be in Dublin directly after that but due to unforeseen personnel circumstances I had to cancel two events. One was the launch of the consent campaign and the other was supporting an organisation that works with women who have addiction problems who are victims of domestic violence. I was not able to attend either of these events and my colleagues stepped in for me. I received a call from the Secretary General at approximately 2.30 p.m. alerting me to the fact there had been a stabbing incident on Parnell Street. It was perhaps 20 minutes later when I spoke to the Garda Commissioner. He had been at a Policing Authority meeting in Waterford. There was a 20-minute gap given the fact he was at the meeting. I spoke to a number of people in the interim period. I was in Dublin at approximately 5 p.m. I left my home prior to 4 p.m. In that hour I spent time on the phone to be honest.
The first conversation the Minister had with the Commissioner was at approximately 2.50 p.m. At that stage did he brief the Minister on the suspected attacker? Did he express any concern at that stage about the possibility of disorder or malign elements exploiting it?
At that stage, because it was early on, he outlined the response to the actual attack and any further response needed in terms of the gardaí and potential implications. Yes, it was discussed at that stage.
In the first conversation he expressed concern that there was potential for disorder.
He outlined that gardaí would be available and were there to respond to any issue that might arise.
That is not quite the same question. Did he express concern that there was the potential for disorder? If not on that phone call, at what stage did he first express this concern?
I do not know the exact language that was used in what he discussed with me. A number of phone calls took place.
It does not need to be the exact language. It is a sense that there was something happening-----
I am conscious this is meeting about policing and not about the timeline of events.
It might not have been in that conversation. I spoke to him a number of times throughout the day. I spoke to him soon after that and remained in contact and met him later. As the day went on and situations arose there was a concern. I mentioned earlier there are number of international protection centres in the area and quite a high volume of accommodation centres that have international protection applicants and others in them. It was expressed to me throughout the day there was a policing plan in place to respond to any issues that might arise. I do not know whether that was in the first, second, third or fourth phone call.
I take the point of the Leas-Chathaoirleach but learning from what happened on the day is a policing matter. It is of concern for the future. With regard to the Minister's own awareness, at what stage during the day did it occur to her that we could be dealing with a very serious situation, aside from the very serious stabbing? When did it seem to her that we were facing a very serious problem on the streets of Dublin?
To be honest, my initial concern and view was that if there was to be any unrest it would potentially be at one of the centres. This was my initial thought and it was early on in the day. I do not know the exact time. As I said, I was on a lot of phone calls. I spoke to the Taoiseach and the Minister, Deputy Donohoe. I spoke to the Commissioner a number of times. My initial concern was that if there were to be any unrest it would have happened there. As I said, I travelled to Dublin as quickly as I could. At the stage I arrived, perhaps at 5 p.m., it was clear that a larger group had gathered close to the scene. I do not think I anticipated what happened in terms of buses on fire, looting and rioting. I did not foresee that happening.
It is important that we are honest about what happened before we move forward. Does the Minister accept that control was lost on streets of Dublin for a period of time?
I do not accept that gardaí did not respond in the best way possible, so no-----
That is a very different question. Gardaí respond in the best possible way with the resources that they have at a moment in time. That is a different question.
I have very clearly stated that it was not safe for a period of time. Buses were on fire and people were looting and rioting. With regard to control being lost, gardaí responded in the most appropriate way possible. How do we stop people if they want to loot and riot? Where the situation escalated to that point gardaí responded in the most appropriate way. For a period of time the city was not safe. I have said this very clearly. Of course it was not safe but gardaí responded and were in control in the best way they could be.
I do not accept they lost control. I accept that were trying to manage a very difficult situation.
There is an important distinction between the actions of individual gardaí who showed incredible valour and courage and responded absolutely in the right way and the institutional response. It seems to me, and I believe to most Dubliners, that with gardaí being attacked and isolated, migrants and bystanders being attacked, open looting, and a Luas vehicle and a Garda car on fire, that that has to constitute loss of control. The scenes were, effectively, unprecedented in the past few decades.
They were unprecedented. I had not seen that before nor, I believe, had most gardaí who responded. I repeat that what we had was the largest mobilisation of public order units and not just in the response we saw on O'Connell Street. It was in a very small area but this could have expanded right across the city. It was contained in a very small area. It was horrific to look at, never mind for those who were on the ground. We had separate teams of gardaí who successfully managed to get people out of their businesses and I have spoken to many of those. These were people who were trapped in their businesses and who said that gardaí were amazing and that they could not commend them enough.
There were also separate gardaí who were responding to potential issues which might have arisen outside direct provision centres. Again, speaking to those who work with and support them, they said that gardaí were amazing.
We had 500 or 600 people who decided that they wanted to set buildings or public transport on fire, to loot and to riot. Gardaí did not lose control; they managed to contain in a very short space of time what could have been an even worse situation, and they did so in a very positive way.
What people on the ground have expressed is the fact that, yes, when it comes to 500 or 600 people, there is a problem but that it was becoming obvious before there were 500 or 600 people present, that there was a desire to create disorder and to exploit this appalling incident. Had more gardaí been on the ground and in a position to respond earlier on that evening when it was beginning to build up, and where those who were there did the best they could, perhaps some of the ugliest scenes could have been avoided.
A public order unit of 25 Garda members were on the scene immediately and there was a second public order unit. I know that the Garda Commissioner went through this and it is not for me to give the exact timelines but a second public order unit was there when a group had gathered at the Garden of Remembrance, which was relatively calm. As things started to escalate, resources were immediately brought in and called in. One did not just have the public order unit which had been called in but other gardaí, as I said, were doing all of this other work, ensuring that the streets were closed off and that it did not go beyond this area. There was a massive mobilisation of people in a very short space of time.
We have seen in recent times riots in other cities of a similar size to Dublin go on for two or three days. This had been stopped by 11 p.m. or 12 midnight that night.
Yes, it was very dangerous for a period of time and it was absolutely challenging for the gardaí but gardaí are to be commended on managing to contain it in such a small area and for bringing it under control within that timeframe. I know Deputy Ó Laoghaire has commended them, as have others, but this is not a situation which any of those Garda members, for the most part, have dealt with. Some dealt with the Love Ulster riot but even that was a different type of scenario and was very different from what we saw that Thursday.
I thank the Minister for that. Senator Ruane said that she wishes to come back in. If anybody wishes to come back in, I will give them one minute each. We will bring everybody in together. I call Senator Ruane first.
I remember someone once saying to me that one's job is only done when one is not needed anymore and that in certain professions we should endeavour to do ourselves out of a job. My task is always to try to reduce the need for policing.
Returning to the spent convictions, perhaps we could get some sort of a timeline from the Minister because if we can reduce the number of people returning to communities where recidivism will increase, that will obviously reduce the need for policing in the long run. Can the Minister gave me a response to that question?
Before the Minister responds, are there any other comments which members may wish to make before we conclude? I will give members one minute if they wish to raise any other distinct issues.
There is a dispute between the Minister and X, formerly Twitter. There are two sides to every dispute but I understand from the Minister's statements, and she may clarify this as I may be wrong, that she was communicating what was told to her by a garda in Pearse Street station on the non-co-operation or inadequate co-operation of X. Was that ever communicated in writing and was it wise in such a febrile atmosphere to make such statements as she did on the basis of a verbal statement rather than a written outline of the failures of X, as seen by An Garda?
First, on the spent convictions, it had been everyone's view, wrongly unfortunately, that it could be sponsored by other Deputies. That is not the case now. I have a particular plan on legislation marked out which I am working through and it has to be incorporated into that. It is a matter then of trying to identify a time to be able to do that but that is still being worked through. As I said to the Senator, I would like to progress the Bill but we have to see where it can-----
Does the Minister believe that we can have Second Stage of the Bill before an election, or within the next six to eight months?
I would like to see progress on it at some point, yes, but I will have to work with the Senator and to engage further on it.
On the engagement with Twitter, it was said to me in more than one station and by gardaí working on the ground. I was asked a question directly about it and that is why I gave that answer. As I said, I will have a report from the Commissioner which will encompass a number of things which happened on the day, and not just how many gardaí were on the ground, where they were and at what times. Based on that, I can engage further but we all know that there are certain things which are being put online that are not being removed, are on certain platforms and are feeding into some of what we saw and witnessed on those days.
I know that the Minister was asked the question but the Minister also volunteered this information in the Dáil without a question. It might have been better if the statement had been based upon an official statement on the formal communications between An Garda and X.
That is more in the nature of a comment than a question.
I was asked a question about it in the Dáil and I responded based on the experience of gardaí who had been working on the ground. I will have a further report outlining that more but this information was received directly from gardaí who were working on the day on what they explained to me had happened. That is simply what I relayed.
I thank the Minister. I know the past two weeks have not been easy but I want to say to the Minister, and I know she has said this on a number of occasions, that our concerns are very much with the families affected by the attack on 23 November. We hope for a speedy recovery for everyone. I wanted to express that on behalf of the committee, and I know it is something which has been expressed before.
I thank the Minister for coming to the committee today and for taking time to answer the questions from members. We appreciate her time and her attendance. I propose that we publish the Minister's opening statement on the website. Is that agreed? Agreed.
If I may add to that, we want the young girl and her carer to make a full recovery and I wish them well.
I appreciate that. The committee is now adjourned until Tuesday, 12 December at 4 p.m. when we will meet in private session on housekeeping matters. I thank everyone.
The joint committee adjourned at 11.18 a.m. sine die.