JOINT COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE, EQUALITY, DEFENCE AND WOMEN’S RIGHTS debate -
Tuesday, 20 May 2003

Vol. 1 No. 25

Visit by Federal Assembly of the Russian Federation.

Chairman

I welcome the delegation of the Federal Assembly of the Russian Federation. I hope it will be convenient for you if we conclude the meeting before 4 p.m. I understand the topics for discussion will be civil rights, including the freedom of the press and freedom of speech; the organisation of defence and policing; and the organisation of security on transport. We are happy that the first meeting with a foreign delegation is with the delegation from the Federal Assembly of the Russian Federation because of the good relations between our countries and our desire to continue them.

The Oireachtas Select Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights considers legislation and Estimates of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Department of Defence. It also considers proposals concerning international agreements requiring approval of the Dáil. The committee is sitting as a joint committee of the Seanad and the Lower House. I understand that the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs put questions to the visiting delegation and I now intend to give the delegation the opportunity to put questions to committee members. I invite Mr. Melnikov to make initial comments and ask questions.

Mr. Vladimir Melnikov

Thank you, chairman. We are pleased to meet our counterparts in Ireland. Our committee does not have "women's rights" in its name, perhaps unfortunately, and this should be rectified one way or another. As I mentioned earlier, we had a very detailed and mutually beneficial discussion on several issues with the members of the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs. As Ireland and Russia are members of the international community, we have come upon several very important problems that we need to solve.

The chairman has described what this committee deals with and we would like to elaborate a bit on what our committee is responsible for. The constitution of the Russian Federation specifies in a very detailed way the exact responsibilities of the Federation Council of the Federal Assembly of the Russian Federation, and of nine of the main responsibilities, five belong to our committee. Our committee is responsible for giving the President of the Russian Federation permission to send our military abroad for one purpose or other, for various questions related to war and peace and for emergencies that arise in Russia. It is responsible for all issues concerning the army and defence forces, including financing and the legislative side of the work of our defence forces.

If we were to be a bit immodest, we would say that our committee would be within the top three busiest committees in the Federation Council, if one was to take into account the volume of legislative work we have to get through. As the committee may know, Russia is still going through a period of reforms which touch upon all areas of life, including the legislative process. One of the most acute problems, not only for our country but for Ireland as well, is the legislative basis for the fight against terrorism. The committee will surely be aware that our country experienced big problems during the terrorist act in the theatre in Moscow, and under these circumstances, militia and our defence forces found it hard to find the right way to deal with the situation because of the blank spaces in our legislative base.

This lack of legislative foundation in the fight against terrorism has led to problems in terms of freedom of speech and freedom of the press. There was too much of it during those days in Moscow, when the television stations and newspapers could show exactly what preparatory work the Russian forces were going through in order to fight the terrorists. The terrorists were therefore aware of the actions of the Russian militia, which was completely wrong. The main problem on the legislative side is the fine line between the importance of countering terrorism and that of protecting human rights. We are aiming to find the line where one thing ends and another begins.

Under these circumstances there are bound to be victims of counter measures in the fight against terrorism. It is also very difficult to define how many victims we should allow in this situation. This is all I would like to share with the committee at the moment.

Chairman

I would like to bring in Deputy Costello in response. Deputy Costello is the spokesperson on justice and law reform for the Labour Party, one of the main Opposition parties in the Dáil. He will perhaps be able to give an insight into what we are doing in comparison to what Mr. Melnikov said is happening in terms of anti-terrorism initiatives in Russia.

Deputy Costello

I welcome the ambassador and the delegation from the Russian Federation. In relation specifically to Mr. Melnikov's question about how we counter terrorism in Ireland and confront the difficult issue of balancing human rights at the same time, we have very strong counter-terrorism legislation going back to just before the Second World War.

The legislation has been developed to respond to the Irish Republican Army in the context of an ongoing conflict on the island and with the British Government. It has been updated over the years, most recently in 1998 to deal with the Omagh bombing. In terms of international terrorism post-11 September, we are in the process of introducing specific legislation called the Criminal Justice (Terrorist Offences) Bill 2002 to deal with international terrorism within a European Union framework.

The legislation to counter terrorism is very strong. In terms of protections, there is an internal section on human rights within our Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. We have a Constitution that speaks strongly of human and civil rights. We are enacting the European Convention on Human Rights at present. We have established a Human Rights Commission. We are signatories to UN and other international conventions on civil liberties in international law. There are strong organisations in Ireland, most particularly Amnesty International and the Irish Council for Civil Liberties, which monitor legislation that might infringe civil and human rights.

Chairman

Does anybody else wish to make a comment or ask a question?

Mr. Trushnikov

We have already discussed a wide range of issues today but we would make a request of the committee. As the committee has told us of Ireland's legislative Acts regarding terrorism, we would like to appeal to the committee's expertise and experience in this area so that our countries have a common approach. It is important that the international community has a common approach in fighting terrorism so that everyone has the same definition of terrorism so that it is not confused with other things like liberation movements and so on. The understanding of what constitutes the infringement of human rights should also be the same everywhere. We appeal to the committee's expertise in order to learn more of Irish legislation in this area.

Chairman

Perhaps I might ask Deputy Hoctor, a Fianna Fáil, Government TD from Tipperary North.

Deputy Hoctor

I also welcome the delegation and the ambassador of the Russian Federation. As Deputy Costello said, we are very strong on legislation against terrorism. Examples include the Offences Against the State Act 1939, which refers to information which may be valuable to illegal and unlawful organisations. People found in possession of such information are subject to the law and are treated quite seriously if found guilty of assisting unlawful organisations with information. The recruitment of people to illegal organisations is also prohibited under this Act. Inviting people to support such organisations and so on is all covered so the Act is quite tight in addressing the advance of illegal organisations. Assisting unlawful organisations to carry out their activities is treated quite seriously in what we call the Offences Against the State Act 1939.

Deputy Hoctor

The Criminal Justice (Terrorist Offences) Bill which is currently being debated in the Seanad refers particularly to property and money which is found on a person, or within an organisation, which is assisting the activities of terrorist groups. Property can be confiscated and finances held in banks or other places may also be taken if they are directly used for the benefit and activities of terrorist groups.

Mr. Melnikov

The Deputy mentioned confiscating property or finances in these circumstances. Who decides whether such action is taken by the State?

Deputy Hoctor

It is ultimately a decision for the courts. Each incident would be treated as an individual case.

Interpreter

On a case-by-case basis?

Deputy Hoctor

Yes.

Chairman

A Criminal Assets Bureau exists whose aim is to confiscate the assets of criminals as illegal gains. That is done mainly through a revenue process. A tax assessment is made on their assets as a result of which property has been confiscated from them in settlement.

I wish to introduce Deputy McGinley to the delegation. He is a member of Fine Gael, the largest Opposition party in Dáil Éireann. He is the party spokesperson on defence. He would like to welcome the delegation and make some comments.

Deputy McGinley

I, too, welcome the delegation to our committee meeting. I am delighted to have the opportunity to meet them. I will give a brief account of the Defence Forces in the limited time available. I understand my colleague, Deputy Ó Fearghaíl will also contribute.

The supreme commander of our Defence Forces is the President. The Government through the Minister for Defence exercises all administrative and executive powers. The strength of our Permanent Defence Force is 10,500 personnel, consisting of the Army, Naval Service and Air Corps. Membership of the Defence Forces is voluntary. We do not have, nor have we ever had, conscription. The entire budget for the Defence Forces last year was in the region of €750 million.

Mr. Anokhin

What percentage of the overall budget is spent on defence?

Deputy McGinley

It is very small when compared to that which is spent in Russia. It is a single figure percentage.

Chairman

It is about 2%. As we are running short of time, I will introduce Deputy Ó Fearghaíl who is a Government Deputy from south Kildare. He will explain briefly about our security and defence policy and our connections with international organisations.

Deputy Ó Fearghaíl

I join my colleagues in welcoming the delegation. I will briefly set out the role of the Defence Forces which is decided by Government. It is a matter of Government policy. First and foremost, its role is to defend the State against armed aggression, which, thankfully, we are not likely to experience in the future. Second, it aids the civil power of the police force, the Garda Síochána, in situations where it may need support and back-up. Third, it participates in multinational peace initiatives, crisis management and humanitarian relief. In that respect, we have been involved with the United Nations in a multiplicity of peace initiatives around the world in locations such as Cyprus, the Lebanon, Kosovo and more recently in places like Ethiopia and Eritrea.

Mr. Melnikov

I was in Kosovo a month ago and I can confirm that.

Chairman

After the events of 11 September, the Government established a task force on emergency planning. This was to ensure that all State bodies can react quickly and efficiently to any large scale emergency. If you wish you can get further details from the Department on Thursday as I understand you are meeting the Department.

Mr. Trushnikov

Does the task force belong to a certain Department?

Chairman

Yes, the Department of Defence.

Mr. Trushnikov

Does the President, as the chief in command, oversee everything that goes on in this task force?

Chairman

The delegation must remember that Executive power, as Deputy McGinley has stated, rests with the Government and with the Minister for Defence, in this case.

Mr. Melnikov

We have something similar in Russia which is called the anti-terrorist centre and is similar to your task force and co-ordinates the work of all Departments in extreme circumstances and is answerable to the Federal Security Bureau.

Chairman

I thank the delegation for coming before the joint committee today. Does Mr.Melnikov wish to make some concluding remarks?

Mr. Melnikov

I thank the committee for a very warm welcome and for this interesting discussion which went both ways. We are happy with the condition of Russia's relationship with Ireland and we hope it becomes even better. As I have already mentioned at the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs, Ireland and Russia will be celebrating the establishment of diplomatic relations between our countries on 30 September. As I said at the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs we shall be partying hard on that day. The Russian President Vladimir Putin has accepted the very kind invitation extended to him to visit Ireland. We confirm he is happy to accept this invitation. We look forward to his visit some time in the near future.

Chairman

I thank Ambassador Vladimir Rakhmanin for arranging this meeting. Ambassador Rakhmanin will be here for 15 months. From what you say he will have a busy time over the next 15 months. I hope you enjoy the remainder of your visit in Ireland and that you find it beneficial and derive satisfaction from it. I hope you have a safe journey home.

Sitting suspended at 4.09 p.m. and resumed at 4.11 p.m.