Skip to main content
Normal View

JOINT COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE, EQUALITY, DEFENCE AND WOMEN’S RIGHTS debate -
Wednesday, 7 Sep 2005

Criminal Justice Bill 2004: Ministerial Presentation.

I welcome all the members of the committee and hope they have had a summer during which they were able to rest and prepare themselves for the main business of the year. I welcome the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and his officials to the meeting today, the purpose of which is to inform the committee of the Minister's intentions with regard to a number of additions to the Criminal Justice Bill 2004 and to give members of the committee an opportunity to make proposals to the Minister on matters they think need to be addressed in the Bill.

The Bill is on Second Stage in Dáil Éireann and will be referred to the Select Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights for consideration. I understand the Minister has finalised a range of amendments to the Bill which he will bring to the Government in the coming weeks. Members were supplied with a briefing note by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform on the proposed ministerial amendments on Monday. The heads will be made available to the committee as soon as they are approved for drafting by the Government.

With the committee's agreement, I invite the Minister to make an opening statement on the main features of the amendments, which will be followed by contributions from committee members.

I thank the Chair for inviting me before the committee and committee members for their attendance here today. As I have a fairly lengthy speaking note, I do not wish to spend all of the available time going through it word for word. I am happy to deal with individual topics and very interested to hear even the initial reactions of members.

We are three years into the life of this Dáil. The likelihood is slim that there will be more than one criminal justice statute of a major kind passed by this Dáil during its remaining time. We might as well be truthful and honest in saying that if there are significant reforms of our criminal justice law that must be dealt with, they should be dealt with in the context of the Bill before the Dáil rather than be long-fingered to the extent that they will not be dealt with at all. I, therefore, welcome this opportunity to appear before the committee to talk in part about my proposals but also to invite members of the committee, in particular the Opposition spokespersons as well as Government members, to consider whether there are issues I am not dealing with but that occur to them as matters that could be dealt with in the context of the passage of this legislation through the Houses.

I have finalised a range of proposed amendments to the Bill that I am about to bring to Government in the coming week. As soon as they are approved for drafting by the Government, I will make the heads available to the committee. In the meantime, I will take this opportunity to brief the committee on the main features of those amendments. I will start with the area of organised crime, an issue on which this committee spent considerable time in recent months. As the committee will recall, I have spoken previously about the real problems in criminalising membership of a criminal gang, particularly because gang relationships are fluid, complex and more a state of mind than an objective matter of fact in many cases. Nevertheless, I informed the committee that I was examining provisions contained in UN and EU instruments on this subject with a view to bringing forward proposals to enable us to give effect to those instruments. I also undertook to examine a Canadian provision in this respect to see if it would be a useful addition to our Statute Book.

As I indicated, I am bringing forward a proposal to provide for the transposition into Irish law of our obligations under international instruments. I am also proposing a provision on participation in criminal organisations based on the Canadian model. However, I emphasise that I am attaching a caution to this latter proposal by expressing my view to the committee that it will not be the panacea to deal with membership of criminal gangs. The difficulties I previously indicated will continue and proving the offence will be difficult. On balance, however, I am of the view that I should propose to put this offence into our law on the basis that there is an argument for having it on the Statute Book, even if, as the Canadian experience suggests, the occasions on which it can be successfully prosecuted may be comparatively rare.

The proposed offence will be based on section 467.11 of the Criminal Code of Canada but is also compatible with the definitions in the international instruments I mentioned. The offence is one of contributing to or participating in an activity of a criminal organisation, not to the commission by a criminal organisation of a serious offence, although the intention behind the contribution must be to enhance the ability of or to facilitate the organisation to commit a serious offence. It will not be necessary to prove the commission of a specific offence. The offence is to be punishable by up to five years in prison. I am also proposing that committing an offence for the benefit of a criminal organisation will be punishable by up to ten years' imprisonment, such as stealing a car for a bank-robbing gang. If it is done for an organised crime body, it could attract a more serious penalty of up to ten years in prison. This is based on section 467.12 of the Canadian criminal code.

To give effect to the conspiracy aspect of Article 2 of the European Union joint action of 2 July 1998 and Article 5 of the UN Convention Against Transnational Organised Crime, I am providing for the offence of conspiracy to commit a serious offence. Although conspiracy is already a common law offence here, the offence does not cover conspiracies in Ireland to commit an act abroad, as is required by the international conventions.

Regarding drug offences and mandatory minimum sentences, I am proposing some small changes to strengthen the provision on the ten year mandatory minimum penalty for drug trafficking that was inserted into the Misuse of Drugs Act 1997 by the Criminal Justice Act 1999. Sentences of ten years or more have been handed down by the courts, albeit to a limited extent. The courts are dealing with drug trafficking offences in the manner in which the Legislature hoped they would. Figures supplied by the Courts Service show that in 2004 some 76 cases were before the courts and sentences of ten or more years were handed down in 16 of those 76 cases. These instances are not as rare as some may think.

It is clear from a study commissioned by the Department that the courts are taking account of the provisions regarding the ten year sentence. Where they reduce that sentence, they do so in accordance with the terms of the provisions, that is, where the specific circumstances of the offence or of the person require it. In addition, I am satisfied that the provisions have a benefit in terms of guilty pleas and the co-operation the Garda Síochána receives from the offender in the hope of having the ten year sentence reduced. However, some improvements could be made to the provisions to strengthen their effect. In particular, the courts often decide that the individual circumstances of a person who is a mere mule in the trafficking operation merit a lesser sentence. Tolerant treatment of such persons by the courts can be an unintended encouragement for the recruitment of such people by the traffickers and could have an unintended effect on the operation of drug trafficking generally. I propose to provide a sentencing guideline for the courts to the effect that in considering whether to reduce a sentence the court should have regard to whether the public interest in the protection of the community against the activities of drug traffickers will be compromised by the imposition of a sentence of less than ten years. Internationally, there has been a tendency to ask vulnerable people to traffic drugs and they are told that they will be treated lightly if caught. The godfathers effectively use pawns to achieve their ends. That people will be treated leniently for doing seriously damaging things to our society is not a good impression to give out abroad .

The 1999 Act allows a court's discretion not to apply the ten year mandatory sentence where it would be unjust to impose it given the circumstances of the offence and the offender. To ensure the courts do not consider that they are obliged by this provision to apply this consideration to persons who are previously convicted drug traffickers or persons who are habitual drug traffickers, I am proposing a guideline to make it clear that this is not the case. There should not be a presumption that one must deviate from the ten year standard when dealing with repeat offenders.

In deciding whether to exercise the discretion to impose a sentence of less than ten years, the courts can have regard to a number of matters, including whether the person materially assisted in the investigation of the offence. As many offenders are fearful of retaliation from drug traffickers if they give information to the Garda, I propose that the prosecution can apply to the court to have information, regarding assistance given to gardaí, heard in camera.

The sentence for trafficking in drugs with a value of €13,000 or more is life imprisonment and the mandatory minimum provided for is ten years. The sentence for the offence of importation of drugs is up to 14 years imprisonment. I consider that the importation offence should also be punishable by up to life imprisonment where the value of drugs is €13,000 or more and that it should also attract the mandatory minimum ten year sentence.

In addition, I am proposing to address an issue that has arisen following two recent decisions of the Circuit Criminal Court to direct an acquittal on the basis that the prosecution had not established that the defendant knew the value of the controlled drugs exceeded €13,000. While the Director of Public Prosecutions has the option of appealing the first decision I consider it prudent, in light of the second decision, to provide clarity on the issue by way of a legislative amendment to the effect that the prosecution need not prove the defendant had knowledge of the value or was reckless in this regard. Guilt or innocence will be decided by an objective test of the value of the goods rather than the subjective state of mind of the trafficker.

I am also providing new offences relating to the supply of drugs to prisons. This provision fulfils a commitment in An Agreed Programme for Government to provide specifically for an offence of supply of drugs to prisons. In the near future I will publish the prison rules dealing with mandatory testing of prisoners. I hope to have a conference of the prison authorities to set in train a new regime in our prisons that will be more concentrated on ensuring that drugs are not present in our prisons.

I also provide for the registration of convicted drug dealers on the drug offenders register with the Garda Síochána in accordance with the commitment in An Agreed Programme for Government. The proposal is based on the same principles as the sex offenders register and will enable the movement of convicted drug dealers to be recorded in a similar fashion, covering change of address and movement in and out of the State.

I address the problem raised at this committee by some Opposition spokespersons of assaults and obstruction of personnel engaged in providing emergency services, including problems with regard to assaults in hospitals, particularly in accident and emergency departments. I propose to expand the definition of peace officers in section 19 of the Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act 1994 which already covers assault and obstruction of members of An Garda Síochána, Defence Forces or prison officers in the execution of their duty to include members of the fire brigade and ambulance personnel. In addition I propose to insert new subsections in section 19 to cover threats, assaults, obstruction and impeding of doctors, nurses and other health service workers in a hospital or its vicinity.

With regard to anti-social behaviour orders, ASBOs, I am extremely concerned about the impact of anti-social behaviour in our communities and know many members of this committee share that concern. In many incidences vulnerable people, particularly the elderly, can be subjected to serious nuisance and forms of harassment which can cause great distress to the people concerned.

The State has a responsibility under Article 40.3 of the Constitution to protect and vindicate the life, person, good name and property rights of citizens against unjust attacks. This is mirrored in Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights. The European Court of Human Rights has not been slow to find against states which have not upheld the enjoyment of this right because of tolerance of serious nuisance type behaviour.

Enforcement of the criminal law is one way in which the State can stand up for and protect the public against unacceptable behaviour but it may not be enough on its own. The more affluent and assertive in society can use the civil law to protect their rights by hiring a solicitor to secure injunctive relief against offending behaviour. That recourse is in theory available to all but in practice it is not within the reach of those who cannot afford to pay for that type of litigation. I believe this is unacceptable and the State should step in and offer protection; in this respect I propose that gardaí should be able to apply to the courts by way of civil procedure, not criminal procedure, for an anti-social behaviour order which would prohibit any person from behaving in a seriously anti-social way. We are not discussing criminalising people. I stress the principle behind anti-social behaviour orders is not new. It is similar to the extremely old power to bind people over to keep the peace and be of good behaviour. That power has been vested in common law judges since the mists of time.

Although my proposal for anti-social behaviour orders is similar to the concept in the United Kingdom, it is there that any direct comparisons end. My proposals are framed to take into account many of the issues raised in the public debate during the year on the subject. It will incorporate important safeguards to ensure that orders can be fairly and reasonably used for the benefit of the good of the community as a whole. An important overriding explicit principle will be that an ASBO will be a last and not a first resort. In addition separate provisions are to apply to adults and children. The provisions for children will be fully integrated into the Children Act 2001 and will attract all the safeguards of that Act. Those proposals will provide for anti-social behaviour orders for children in two categories, those aged 14 years and over and those between ten and 14 years of age.

Important features of the proposal are that the definition of anti-social behaviour order is not the definition used in the United Kingdom but one which is designed to ensure that the orders are used to meet the real and serious needs of communities. First, I am aware that in the United Kingdom one person was subjected to an anti-social behaviour order because a pet dog was in the habit of fouling the pavement. That is not the type of behaviour we are dealing with here.

Second, only gardaí can make an application to court for an ASBO and the applying garda will have to be of the rank of superintendent. It is not a question as was stated at public meetings I attended that local gardaí will lean on people in their communities and throw their weight around. It will be a reflective process.

Third, strict Garda Síochána guidelines on the appropriate use of anti-social behaviour orders will be drawn up by the Commissioner, approved by the Minister and laid before both Houses of the Oireachtas before the powers can be deployed. Fourth, to emphasise that the application to a court for an ASBO is to be a last resort, there will be an explicit duty to formally caution respondents to cease the offending behaviour.

Guidelines for the courts will also be provided in the legislation on the issue of orders. These guidelines will highlight the importance of the principle of minimum interference, the reasonableness of the complaint, the likelihood of recurrence and the number of occasions on which the offending behaviour is alleged to have occurred in the past. The court will be able to grant legal aid to respondents, even though the procedure is a civil one, in appropriate cases. Unlike the United Kingdom, the duration of the orders will be for a maximum, rather than a minimum, of two years. Penalties for the breach of an order will be considerably less than in the United Kingdom, with the maximum possibility being six months' imprisonment.

There will be specific provisions for children, which are being integrated into the Children Act. First, before an application for an ASBO can be contemplated, a series of steps must be followed. A child who is engaging in anti-social behaviour must be given a series of street warnings. If the behaviour continues, the child and his or her parents will be invited to a meeting with the local superintendent, who will draw up a good behaviour contract, to be signed by the parents and child. The behaviour of the child will be monitored locally and, if necessary, the contract can be renewed. If the child continues to behave anti-socially, he or she will normally be referred to the Garda diversion programme. If a problem remains after all of the above steps have been taken, the issue of an application to the courts for an ASBO will then arise. Needless to say, the parents and the child will be obliged to turn up in court, wherever they are identifiable or available. If a child breaches an order, it is only then that matter of the commission of an offence is relevant and all of the provisions of the Children Act, including the possibility of a second admission to a Garda diversion programme, would then come into play. Anti-social behaviour orders relating to children will be subject to the restrictions of the Children Act regarding publicity only to the extent required to make the order effective.

I propose to provide for a separate type of order for children under the age of 14 years who may be engaging in anti-social behaviour. These orders will be called good behaviour orders. The approach will be similar to that adopted for older groups but all of the preliminary steps will have to be taken in order that an application is a last resort. However, the terms of the order will be different in that the court will be empowered to bind the parents over to ensure that the child stops his or her offending behaviour. The court will also be in a position to seek to address the issues that arise for parents who lack the basic skills to deal with their child by making it a condition of the binding over order that the parents undertake a parenting course, engage with an appropriate authority or agency or undergo treatment for addiction problems, if necessary. If the court order fails, the court will be in a position to warn the parents that a breach will render the child subject to a criminal prosecution and thereafter all the provisions of the Children Act will come into play, including the possibility of another admission to the Garda diversion programme.

I am providing for a number of new statutory sentencing powers, the purpose of which is to provide a real and practical incentive to offenders to deal with issues giving rise to their offending and to stay away from crime. One of these new powers will give a court the ability to partially suspend sentences, subject to certain conditions. In the past we have had experimentation by judges who built reviews into the custodial sentences they imposed. However, the Court of Criminal Appeal and the superior courts disapproved of this practice because it was effectively a court reviewing its own decisions. As a way around that issue, we are proposing that the courts should be given a strong statutory basis for partially suspended sentences. If, for example, a person is convicted of robbery, it should be possible, with judicial discretion, to give that person a sentence of two years' imprisonment plus an additional three years, which would not be served if he or she keeps the peace and is of good behaviour for a specific period of time. This would provide a genuine incentive to reform and to stay out of trouble. The conditions governing partially suspended sentences include a standard requirement that offenders keep the peace and be of good behaviour during the period of imprisonment. However, the court will also be able to make them subject to other conditions, for example, that they undergo drug or substance abuse treatment, rehabilitation courses for sex offenders or that a person agrees to be subject to the supervision of the probation and welfare service.

This is important because there is nothing at present in law to compel or encourage, for example, a sex offender to participate in a therapy programme while in custody. He or she may choose to participate but a radical incentive is not available. As a result, the situation pertains, as the chairman of the probation and welfare service, Mr. Gordon Holmes, has repeatedly called to my attention, that there is no incentivised programme in place in order that offenders in custody may rehabilitate themselves or participate in rehabilitation programmes. In principle, the length of time served in prison does not make a difference. That is wrong. Rather than the courts following the course of reviewing sentences after a period of time, which has been disapproved of, a structured basis should require that people with custodial sentences participate in these programmes in the hope that a substantial portion of their sentences will be suspended.

I am also proposing that the courts may, in certain circumstances, impose a fine but defer the custodial sentence in order to assess whether the offender, during the term of the deferment, stayed away from crime and addressed the issues giving rise to his or her behaviour. I am particularly concerned that some members of the District Court Bench, for whom I have great respect, regard as essential a tough approach to violence on the streets and other matters. Members of the Garda Síochána and the Bench find themselves in the position that, after gardaí and prosecutors have gone to a lot of trouble to put together a case that goes before the court, sentences are simply deferred for a year to determine how an offender will behave and the accused walks out of court without any apparent consequences to pleading or being found guilty. A problem will obviously occur if part of a sentence is immediately imposed, while the remainder is deferred. In practical terms, this can only be done with the consent of the accused because he or she must be able to appeal a judgment. I cannot remove the right of appeal. By imposing a monetary penalty when passing judgment but deferring the question of a custodial sentence in order to determine whether the person will behave and has learned his or her lesson, District Court judges in particular will be provided with a powerful weapon to ensure people do not leave the court while laughing up their sleeves, which can be frustrating to victims and witnesses who perceive the offenders as going unpunished. The hope is that the offender will reform over the ensuing year.

I also intend to provide a framework that will allow the courts to impose restrictions on movement and electronic monitoring orders instead of imprisonment for certain minor offences. A restriction on movement order may impose such restrictions as the court deems fit, including a requirement that the offender be in a specified place at certain times or not be in a specified place at other times. In addition, where a court has imposed a restriction on movement, it may also impose an order for electronic monitoring of the offender in the community. We have previously discussed this matter. In Britain, it is a costly service and I am at present making statutory provision for it but not guaranteeing that I will attempt to roll it out nationwide because the resources involved in electronic monitoring may be better spent on youth diversion projects. It is of doubtful economic value compared with the use of resources in other ways to deal with these types of offenders.

I am proposing to raise the age of criminal responsibility from seven to ten years of age. Although the age of 12 years is provided for in the Children Act 2001, this provision is unlikely to be brought into operation in the foreseeable future. I have spoken to the Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children, Deputy Brian Lenihan, at length on this subject. We believe that the Children Act was unduly optimistic in claiming that no child could commit a criminal offence under the age of 12 years. The law to that effect, which has been passed by the Oireachtas, has not been commenced. Raising the age from seven to ten years is a reasonable step, but the use of reason comes into play around that time in a child's development. It could seriously scandalise public perceptions of criminal justice if 11 or 12 year old rapists went unpunished, were told their offences were bad behaviour and society did nothing about it, particularly now that 11 year old children are getting pregnant, as we read about during the summer. We could have a serious collapse of social confidence in our criminal justice system, especially now that children mature younger and are engaged in sexual behaviour, if all sexual activity up to the age of 12 years was, in every circumstance, regarded as being incapable of being criminal. I know there are two views on that. Deputy Costello's party indicated grave reservations, if not outright opposition, to it, but that is something we can discuss at a later stage.

I also propose to insert a new part in the Bill to deal with a series of provisions relating to the firearms Acts 1925 to 2000. The new provisions will concern the certification for possession, use and carriage of firearms and ammunition; allow the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to deem certain firearms as restricted and allow for an increase in fines and penalties relating to offences generally under the firearms Acts; and the creation of mandatory minimum sentences for certain firearms offences, including some new offences concerning the modification of a firearm. I am thinking of sawn-off shotguns. The provisions will also introduce a right of appeal to the District Court from firearms decisions made by the Garda Síochána, a new power for the Commissioner to make guidelines or guidance notes for the uniform administration of the Act and a provision for the authorisation of rifle and pistol clubs and shooting ranges. It will also contain a provision allowing the Minister to make a scheme to provide for payment for certain surrendered firearms in limited circumstances. It will also make provision allowing for a period where firearms may be surrendered to members of the Garda Síochána.

I also propose to insert a new part in the Bill to deal with a series of provisions amending the explosives Acts. The new provisions will concern the updating of fines and penalties already in those Acts and there will also be provisions on fireworks. I draw the committee's attention to the proposal to establish a new offence of lighting fireworks in public places or attacking persons or property with a firework. It will also be an offence for a person to possess a firework for the purpose of selling it to another or otherwise supplying it without an import licence. I also intend to provide for an increase in the penalties for the misuse of fireworks. I initiated a consultation programme on fireworks which drew a limited response from the public.

I also want to introduce some technical amendments to the Bill during its passage through the Oireachtas. These will include an amendment to deal with the issues arising from the judgment in the case of Dylan Creaven v. the Criminal Assets Bureau, which held that a search warrant could only be issued by a District Court judge if he or she were physically sitting in a court in the district to which he or she had been assigned.

I thank the committee for listening to me today. I am bringing forward proposals but I also want to ask members of the committee for their views on amendments. Any member is entitled to table an amendment. If there are ideas they believe should be thought through and drafted properly and if they want to bounce them off the relevant authorities in advance of tabling them, I extend an invitation to them to consider that and to consider whether I may be missing things here which could be an improvement.

I am glad I had the opportunity today to read the Minister's proposals. It is an unusual way to deal with legislation given that the Criminal Justice Bill was circulated in July last year and Second Stage was taken in February this year. I have been seeking the additional proposals from the Minister for quite a long time. I am glad to see them at this stage but, obviously, since today was the first occasion on which I had an opportunity to read them, my response will have to be of a preliminary nature. I reserve the right to make a more detailed response and to table amendments on Committee Stage.

Quite a number of serious issues arise in the list of amendments outlined by the Minister. In many ways, the issues mentioned in the amendments are of more serious weight than the combination of issues in the original Bill. I will touch briefly, on a Second Stage basis as it were, on the Minister's proposals. As regards organised crime, I have long been in favour of legislation making it an offence to be a member of a criminal organisation. We have had a precedent that has worked very well in this country concerning the IRA. However, the question must be posed as to whether we can look at the benefits that particular provision gave us during the years and apply it to the area of organised crime. God knows, the way things are going, there may not be a whole lot of difference as things stand.

At an earlier committee meeting, we examined the situation in Quebec after the gang wars there and the new provisions made in Canadian law in this respect. Now that the Minister has come around to the view that we should have legislation covering the criminalisation of membership of gangs, I had hoped we would have a better idea of the proposed nuts and bolts, because that is what it boils down to. I appreciate there are difficulties including the question of proof, what will be a sufficient criteria to establish membership, on whom the onus of proof will lie, and what presumptions will be made.

From the Fine Gael viewpoint, I am enthusiastically in favour of an approach along the lines outlined by the Minister. My criticism, however, is that he has not spelled it out in more detail, although I appreciate there are difficulties. I would like to see those constitutional, legal and practical difficulties being outlined as well as how it is proposed to get over them.

As regards drugs, according to the Minister's own figures, only in 21% of cases in 2004 did judges apply the ten-year sentence. If my figures are correct, that occurred in 16 out of 76 cases. In examining the issue of minimum mandatory sentences, we should be clear as to what is our strategy. It must be to ensure that we do not lock up the small fish for ten years or life, but that we do lock up the big fish. The big whales must be caught. It is a question of having a system to ensure that objective is achieved. I take the point that the fact that mere mules may or may not receive a ten-year sentence, might have some impact on them. Realistically, however, standing back and looking at the situation, are we really in the business of providing that somebody peripherally involved at a minor level will end up with a life sentence or a minimum of ten years for dealing in drugs to an amount that would hardly buy a second-hand car?

At a political level, sometimes it is easy to act tough and demand longer sentences. I am as a tough as any and Fine Gael has proved that during the years in dealing with crime. At the same time, however, one must ensure that what we are doing is sensible and effective. We should re-examine the matter and reflect on whether we will achieve the objectives I have outlined by going along the lines the Minister has proposed. Should we consider possibly increasing the value of the drugs involved? How is the value fixed? A sum of €13,000 does not amount to an awful lot. When drugs hauls are reported in newspapers, values of millions and billions are mentioned.

What figure would the Deputy like?

I know the Chairman, adopting his usual impartial stance, would hate to put me in the position of presenting my party as being short in this area and, therefore, I will pass up the opportunity. We, as legislators, have a duty to be responsible, not merely to wave to populist winds. Let us establish how best to achieve the objective of locking up the Gilligans of this world for a long time. We should make sure when casting the net in this way that we do not lock up minor peripheral figures for lengthy periods at a significant cost to the taxpayer, approximately €200,000 a year per prisoner.

The Minister is on the right track regarding the issue of the supply of drugs to prisons. He should make his best effort to stop the supply. Presumably, much of this effort will be conducted at a practical and administrative level rather than at a legislative level because legislation will not prevent the supply of drugs. I will play the devil's advocate regarding the question of proof in relation to somebody passing the vicinity of a prison who is in possession of drugs. The Minister proposes that if a person is in possession of a drug in the vicinity of a prison the court may regard that as sufficient evidence of intent to commit an offence in the prison and, therefore, make him or her liable for five years' imprisonment. What would happen to a local resident passing the door of Mountjoy Prison who is charged with possession? There is a need to think through the effects and consequences of the proposals. In general, I favour the elimination of the supply of drugs to prisons in so far as we can and I will go along with any sensible proposals.

I ask the Minister to provide more information on the drugs offenders register. The sex offenders register has been a successful innovation but there is potential for duplication in this regard.

I refer to attacks on emergency workers. I am glad the Minister has adopted the views expressed by many members of the committee in that regard and that will be an advance.

I have no problem with anti-social behaviour orders but my main criticism of the Minister is that he has pinned all his colours to the ASBO mast. Anti-social behaviour is a increasingly widespread problem which will not be solved by ASBOs. Such orders will have a minor role in the resolution of this problem and, therefore, a much broader approach to anti-social behaviour must be adopted. A tougher approach must be taken and a number of amendments to the law, including on-the-spot fines, compulsory parenting courses, curfew orders and so on must be introduced. Communities must be involved more in dealing with such behaviour and the way the Garda operates must change.

A series of measures is required, not all necessarily in the justice area, to deal with anti-social behaviour. Measures must be taken in the education and environment areas. We must examine new approaches. Deputy Hoctor has often raised the restorative justice approach, which has been adopted in Nenagh, County Tipperary. Why has that not been rolled out nationwide? The only pilot projects are in Nenagh and Tallaght.

The main point I wish to make about the Minister's proposal, with which I do not have any great difficulty, is that the Minister and some of those opposed to anti-social behaviour orders have concentrated on the proposal to too great an extent. The real issue of anti-social behaviour has been largely ignored. The broad canvas of the solution that is necessary has not been presented by the Government. I am glad to say that such a solution has been proposed by Fine Gael.

I never knew that.

I am glad to mention that my good friend and colleague, Deputy Costello, has also adopted such an approach on behalf of the Labour Party.

We have a new Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

We might be seeing the seeds of things to come.

I do not think the Minister has adequately explained his approach to sentencing. I ask him to clarify the difference between what is currently known as a "suspended sentence" and the "deferred sentence" he has proposed. I am open to new thinking in this regard, but I would like to know more about the Minister's proposals in order that we can give them greater consideration. There may be advantages in imposing a deferred sentence that will hang over a person's head, but there may also be some disadvantages. If the sentence that is imposed on a person is suspended, provided that he or she complies with certain conditions, he or she knows that the sentence will not be implemented if he or she behaves appropriately.

It is only partially suspended.

Yes. I am not sure whether the Minister has given a complete answer to my query. I am willing to examine the Minister's proposals in this regard. I would like him to consider, in a practical manner, how the proposals might or might not be of benefit.

As I have long been an advocate of electronic tagging, I feel that the proposed electronic monitoring orders could have many benefits. Such an approach has worked well in other countries, such as Australia, Canada and the United Kingdom. The experience in such jurisdictions suggests that we should adopt this approach. I am glad that it has been proposed, at long last, to make statutory provision for such a system here.

I am stunned by the Minister's proposals in respect of the age of criminal responsibility. I cannot understand how the Minister can intend to follow such a course of action. It took us almost 100 years to update the original Children Act, with the enactment of the Children Act 2001, which had undergone a most tortuous legislative process over the lifetime of a number of Governments. The 2001 Act was the subject of broad approval, but it has not been implemented. The Minister should do what is necessary to bring all the provisions of the 2001 Act into operation and to implement it fully. It is incredible that the Minister has suggested to the joint committee that we should amend the Children Act 2001, which raised the age of criminal responsibility to 12 years, before it has been fully implemented. I am utterly unconvinced by the Minister's comments on the matter. The Minister showed his usual media savvy by claiming he is raising the age of criminal responsibility from seven to ten years, but the Children Act 2001 provided for an age of criminal responsibility of 12 years. The Minister should tell us why the 2001 Act has not been implemented, rather than suggesting that he is improving on the current legislation by increasing the age of criminal responsibility to ten years.

I am not convinced by the Minister's decision to latch on to recent publicity surrounding a statement by his party colleague, the Tánaiste, Deputy Harney, on the issue of young children becoming pregnant. Young children may not necessarily become pregnant as a result of the actions of males under the age of criminal responsibility. That is an utterly unconvincing argument. I see the Minister is a little sensitive on the issue in that, somewhat rarely on his part, he took the opportunity to invoke his departmental colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Brian Lenihan, with whom, he states, he had discussions. In doing so, he broadens the net of responsibility but it will not wash. The Minister has a long way to go to convince members of the joint committee and the general public as to the benefits of setting aside the provisions of the Children Act 2001 regarding the age of criminal responsibility. I strongly advise against such a move.

On the proposed codification of criminal law, again, while it may seem to be a legalistic measure to take, the Minister should stand back and tell us a little more about it. If his proposal refers to a codification of the entire criminal law system, it would be a massive job. Why do this? I operate on the basis that if it is not broken, one does not fix it. Does the Minister hope to be known for producing a Code Napoleon-McDowell covering the entire criminal law system? What is the benefit of his proposal given that drawing up a new criminal law code would be a massive job, would entail massive cost and could create many loopholes?

This is a good time to discuss firearms. I hope that, seven or eight years after it committed itself to do so, the republican movement will, at long last, get rid of its firearms and we will enter a new era.

Serious issues also arise in the area of legally held firearms. The recent horrific case in County Kilkenny highlights the question as to who should be given firearms licences and whether provisions should be made for revocation, the establishment of an appeals system or, in certain circumstances, the submission of medical evidence. This returns us to a point made on several occasions, namely, whether the issue of how to deal with firearms should be dealt with separately. While I am aware the Minister is concerned that his days in office may be numbered and he may not have the opportunity to introduce much new legislation in the dying days of this Administration, I assure him that the Opposition would co-operate if a proposal were made to introduce a new firearms Bill to deal separately and comprehensively with the issues on which he touched.

Several changes are required in the area of explosives. With Hallowe'en around the corner, the usual questions will be raised about fireworks. We need to deal with outstanding problems in this area.

At this stage, I can do no more than give a preliminary response to the Minister's proposals and have done so in as constructive a manner as possible. I will examine them in much greater detail in the coming weeks and months and I expect to put forward detailed amendments when his final proposals come before us. I ask the Minister to produce the final proposal and the detailed amendments as soon as possible. I demand that in the interests of good legislation we have adequate time to deal with those amendments as it did not happen on a number of pieces of legislation in recent times.

I thank Deputy Jim O'Keeffe. Before he left, the Chairman gave me a list of speakers which is as follows: Deputy Costello, Senator Jim Walsh, Deputy Finian McGrath, Deputy Ó Snodaigh and me. We will proceed with the speakers and then have the Minister's response.

I will try to be somewhat more brief, otherwise it will be dark by the time everyone around the table has spoken. Deputy Jim O'Keeffe has comprehensively gone through the issues that have been raised here.

We should have adequate time to engage in an examination of these proposals. The earlier we have an opportunity of seeing the changes in the form of amendments, the better, as distinct from heads or a note circulated to us a couple of days in advance of any discussion. It is unfortunate that virtually all the legislation that emanates from the Department comes at one time, is debated at another time and is amended at another time. By the time we enact the legislation it seldom bears any resemblance to what was originally envisaged. The Minister tends to add a variety of appendices and amendments to legislation. Most of the amendments come from him as the Opposition only manages to successfully introduce a limited number of amendments.

It is eight months since we debated Second Stage of this Bill. We had no idea that significant amendments would be introduced that would substantially alter the Bill. The purpose of Second Stage is to examine everything regarding the thrust of the legislation. We should not find out subsequently that major amendments will be tabled that will alter it. I am critical in this regard of virtually all the legislation introduced by the Minister and the proposed legislation in question is no different in that respect.

We went through the first proposal relating to organised crime at considerable length when the committee had hearings on the matter. There were conflicting opinions on both sides. Some experts who made submissions to the committee, such as Judge Binchy and Professor Bacik, were against the introduction of any amendment of this kind on the basis that it was not likely to be used very often and that it was surrounded by legal difficulties. It was said that we could put it on the Statute Book but we would not be able to use it effectively. Obviously, we will not know that for certain until we get the text of the amendments to see whether we are able to put in place the membership of an organised gang. While that is not proposed, it is proposed that we put in place "participation in, contribution to or benefit from an organised gang". Conspiracy would also be included. Until we see the proposed amendments it is very difficult to ascertain if they would be effective. Even though the Minister said he will largely go along the lines of the Canadian criminal code, the argument will not progress further until we see the proposed amendments.

Mandatory minimum sentences for drug offences is a thorny issue. I am 100% in agreement with life sentences being imposed for the importation of drugs for supply. That is really where the problem lies.

A very small amount of drugs is manufactured in this country. The vast majority comes through our airports or seaports and their importation represents a very organised activity. It is achieved with a lot of money and, in many cases, weapons, thus implying that other crimes are committed. The drugs are imported with intent to supply to people whose lives will be ruined as a result. Their importation for supply should receive the maximum sentence.

I have difficulties with the mandatory ten-year sentence. The Minister stated in his introductory remarks that it is working well, or made some point to that effect, but this is not true. It is not working at all. He stated it is clear from a study commissioned by the Department that the courts are taking account of the provisions relating to the ten-year sentence. The one thing of which they are not taking account is the mandatory nature of the sentence. It has been honoured more in the breach than in the observance. Why is this the case? I believe it is because the offence is not sufficiently defined. It is not sufficiently clear how one assesses what constitutes a street value of £10,000, or approximately €13,000. We get all the figures in the world thrown up. There is no independent mechanism for assessing the street value and what the provision means for a drug addict in possession of drugs who may be passing on a portion of them to somebody else to feed his habit. In this regard, consider what the Minister proposes to do with somebody who is caught for the supply of drugs to a prison. He or she is to get a five-year sentence. That is laughable. A mandatory ten-year sentence will operate for possession of up to €13,000 worth of drugs while somebody in the vicinity of a prison or somebody on the bus to Thornton Hall, if the prison is located there, will get a five-year sentence. The Minister will have to rethink some of these measures.

Even Eddie Hobbs could have told the Minister that things have changed since 1997 and that £10,000 in that year would not exactly buy the same amount of drugs that it would buy at present. They would now cost a little more. The cost of living has increased enormously. One must remember that we must make the provision meaningful. It is not a question of anybody being hard or soft on the issue but a question of the practicality of the legislation and whether it will work. The judges, in their wisdom, have decided to exercise their discretion and not to impose the sentence, for a variety of reasons but mainly because the description of the offence is badly worded and presented in terms of a ten-year mandatory sentence for the possession of £10,000 worth of drugs. The Minister will have to redress this before he proceeds along the course outlined. He should indicate a much more realistic amount that would correspond to a mandatory ten-year sentence. The provision must be tied in very specifically with the legislation on the trafficking of drugs.

I welcome the proposal regarding witnesses who might be fearful of intimidation from drug traffickers such to the effect that the relevant proceedings can be heard in camera. However, we do not really have any provisions in terms of witness protection or victim support. We have abolished our victim support programme for various reasons outside the control of the Minister. Whatever has been put in its place has certainly not been functioning. We need to reconsider this very quickly.

I am also concerned about the question of people being expelled from the country. I do not know how the Minister will deal with this. Virtually all of the drugs are imported. The offenders include Irish people living abroad, but there are many non-nationals, including English, Americans and people from other countries. Quite often a judge hands down a sentence but suspends it, subject to the repatriation of the person concerned. That is outrageous. It just means, in effect, that if someone comes from Colombia or Afghanistan to Ireland, with drugs, he or she will get a 14 or 15 year sentence, or a ten-year mandatory sentence, but in lieu of this will be expelled and told not to return to Ireland. Many will take that risk. There should be no expulsion. The same sentence should be imposed with repatriation conditional on an offender serving the prison time in his or her own country. That should be incorporated into the legislation in some way because virtually the entirety of the supply of drugs comes from abroad. Therefore, we are subject to a different regime in that respect.

The drug offender register is a good idea, but again it seems somewhat silly to be imposing registration for someone who has a term of imprisonment of one year or more when a mandatory ten-year sentence is being handed down for possession of €13,000 with a five-year sentence for supply of drugs to a prison. As regards the possession of articles for purposes connected with certain offences, I am in agreement. However, the measure should be extended beyond kidnapping to cover beatings, assaults and murder. People may well be in possession of articles such as maps and documents for the purpose of intimidation as well as kidnapping. I wonder how the Minister might deal with this.

As regard attacks on emergency workers, it is quite proper that the benefit of the Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act 1994 should be extended to cover fire brigade and hospital staff. However, I do not believe this is the way to solve the problem in accident and emergency departments, which is the example that is given. That is a logistical problem. The norm in this country is that people attending accident and emergency units are in the same reception area, for example, an elderly lady who has had a stroke will be side by side with someone suffering from an overdose of drugs or those bawling and shouting because they have fallen on the pavement after a night out on the town. The way to solve this is to have two separate reception areas. We should not try to have a catchall mechanism in having the criminal code solving problems which could be dealt with by well-paid people in management whose responsibility this should be.

On anti-social behaviour orders, the Minister has certainly moved considerably from the original proposals, as I understood them, to distance himself from the legislation in Britain. However, many questions must still be asked. We still do not have a definition of anti-social behaviour. The Minister is telling the committee it is not the definition used in the United Kingdom, but he is not telling us what it is. We will have to get that for a start. I am not happy that he has turned the Children Act 2001 on its head. On the one hand, he has done what I wanted, namely, integrated the process into this legislation, in order that it is covered by the Children Act but he then changed the age of responsibility. Where this was 12 years in the Children Act, he is making it ten years. Obviously, that introduces another category in respect of anti-social behaviour orders, namely, ten to 14 year olds. While he says he is giving a different regime to ten to 14 year olds relative to those over 14, the effect will be the same.

Any breach of the anti-social behaviour order will result in a criminal offence. As a result we will criminalise children under the age of 12 years for breaches of the order. Under the Children Act 2001 this would not happen. A child from seven years upwards will be responsible for his or her behaviour and, if accused of murder, could be tried in the Central Criminal Court. Are we abolishing the age of criminal responsibility or not? In this instance, the Minister has taken a backwards step from the age of responsibility in the Children Act 2001, which I think is one of the finest on the Statute Book. However, the Government never resourced the implementation of that Act. The personnel were not recruited, the procedures and structures that were enacted to deal with young people at risk were never put in place. This happened because the Government was not prepared to invest the money required. In effect what the Minister is stating is that there is no prospect of the Children Act 2001 being implemented.

Raising the age of criminal responsibility from seven to 12 years will not happen. Under this proposal the Minister believes he will be doing a good turn by raising the age of criminal responsibility from seven to ten years. Effectively the Minister is changing the age prescribed in law and lowering the age of criminal responsibility from 12 to ten years. That is not good enough and I will oppose it. We must deal with the issue in a coherent fashion. Under this provision children as young as seven years may appear in the Central Criminal Court; even though a different provision will apply to those aged 14 years and upward from that which will apply to those aged between ten and 14 years, the effect is that youngsters will be criminalised from seven years onwards. It is stated categorically in the Minister's speaking note that where the offence is required to be tried in the Central Criminal Court, the rule is to apply to children between the ages of seven and 14 years. What offence would warrant a child of seven years being dragged into the Central Criminal Court? The Minister threw out a possibility of rape——

A case such as that of Jamie Bolger. Is the Deputy suggesting that we should just walk away——

The children involved in that case were much older than seven years.

No, they were not.

They were over ten years.

My point is that they were under 12 years.

Anyone may point to one example. How many children aged seven years appeared in cases before the Central Criminal Court? Does the Minister have statistics for cases involving children heard in the Central Criminal Court? In the course of his speech the Minister when addressing the issue of criminal responsibility stated that the lower age of seven years will continue to apply for any offence required to be tried by the Central Criminal Court. What nonsense, this is a backwards step. The Minister proposes to lower the age from 12 to ten years, instead of allowing the age limit of 12 years in the Children Act 2001 to stand because he is not prepared to invest the required resources. It is easier to criminalise young children than to provide the resources to implement the Children Act.

On the question of sentencing, does the Minister propose to partially suspend sentences subject to certain conditions, or define and defer sentences? This is all about custodial sentences. The Minister intends to partially suspend a custodial sentence for a person under certain conditions, such as that a person undergoes drug treatment. What does "partially" mean in this case? Would a person serve part of a sentence before being allowed treatment? This system operates at present in that offenders who go to prison may be released on temporary release on condition that they receive treatment. I am not sure whether the Minister is talking about alternatives to prison or about a partial suspension of custodial sentences. How would this happen and when would the conditions take effect? If a person were to receive treatment for substance abuse, rehabilitation or probation and welfare supervision, would that start at the beginning or end of a sentence?

What about the fine? The Minister proposes that the courts can impose a fine but defer the custodial sentence. Does this mean the person receives a fine and a sentence? Are we talking about deferral or the rescinding of a sentence if a person is of good behaviour as well as paying a fine? Legislation already makes provision for fines and custodial sentences. I am not sure what the Minister is talking about in this regard.

I am glad the courts will be given the power to impose restriction of movement and electronic monitoring orders. These measures are subject to agreement but, in the circumstances outlined, are acceptable. Although the Minister did not refer to it, the document provided refers to the Criminal Justice (United Nations Convention Against Torture) Act. This is an extraordinary amendment. The Minister proposes to restrict the grounds for appeal against deportation orders to torture instigated by public officials rather than torture instigated by anybody else. In a successful case taken here, it was found there is a limitation on the Criminal Justice (United Nations Convention Against Torture) Act, which defines torture in terms of action suffered at the hands or instigation of a public official. The new amendment proposes that it will not be allowed to have the definition of torture in the 2000 Act interpreted to apply to a person other than a public official. Therefore, the Minister proposes to restrict the definition to make it more difficult for anybody facing deportation to appeal this by claiming it would not be public officials but others who would instigate any torture. Torture is torture, wherever it comes from. Although our international obligations only extend to torture by public officials, we should be more generous and extend this measure across the board to address torture from wherever it comes.

As I dealt with the age of criminal responsibility, I will not return to the issue except to state it is one of the areas the Minister should reconsider; he should leave the age at 12 years. Unlike Deputy Jim O'Keeffe, I am in favour of the codification of the criminal law. Napoleon was an emperor when he began to codify French law but he had plenty of time on his hands to do it. The process will certainly go on for a long time. However, to get rid of all the pre-1922 statutes and to codify these with legislation introduced since that time is an excellent idea, which I hope we can realise.

With regard to the firearms provisions, statistics show there is greater criminal possession and use of firearms than previously. It is one of the types of offences that has been increasing rapidly and it is important we deal with it, including in terms of the introduction of new offences concerning the modification of firearms. The Minister proposes a scheme to provide a payment for certain surrendered firearms. I did not think he would pay people to surrender their firearms and that there would be some kind of amnesty for doing so.

There is a problem with certification for possession and carriage of firearms, which is a separate matter. People with legally held weapons for the purpose of gaming and shooting have a real difficulty with the inclusion of certification in the Criminal Justice Act whereas it was traditionally included in the Firearms Act 1925, which badly needs updating. It is a matter of a sporting rather than a criminal nature, and mixing the two up will certainly cause considerable problems. Does the Minister propose to abolish the Firearms Act as part of this process or will he to allow it to remain in place? Certainly, the gaming and shooting lobby will try to ensure that its members' hobby is treated under the Firearms Act rather than the Criminal Justice Act.

Regarding the provision on explosives in the Bill, I am not sure what will and will not work because we have all the problems coming to up Hallowe'en. These problems start earlier every year. We have a different dispensation with regard to this matter from the case in Northern Ireland. The starting point with regard to fireworks is to speak to our colleagues in Northern Ireland and ensure that it is not possible for fireworks to be purchased across the Border and be illegal here because this only results in other crimes, such as smuggling. We need to have the same provisions regarding fireworks and a working party should be established between the authorities in the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland to try to get agreement on provisions that would deal with the sale and use of fireworks.

Perhaps we should decommission fireworks.

I would not say that we should decommission fireworks. Obviously, fireworks can be used on celebratory occasions and at Hallowe'en. They should be under the control of the local authorities and should only be sold with a certificate. At the moment, one law operates in the Republic of Ireland while another operates in Northern Ireland and what is on the streets and will be used at Hallowe'en are fireworks smuggled in from abroad where criminal elements may be involved, where there is no control and where the fireworks are extremely dangerous.

The two main Opposition Members have spoken — I am not denigrating others — but we have a time constraint. I ask the members who will contribute now to be as brief as possible.

I welcome the Minister and the various initiatives he has outlined here, most of which I favour. I welcome the provision regarding membership of a criminal gang. What evidential thresholds will be required? Under the other legislation regarding terrorism, the declaration of a chief superintendent would suffice. I do not think this is the case in this area. There is a need to put people behind bars who are actively involved in the drugs trade and where the Garda and the local community are absolutely sure who these individuals are. Many of them escape with impunity simply because they use other people to do some of their donkey work. This brings justice into disrepute. The evidential threshold must be examined to ensure the people concerned are brought before the justice system.

I am inclined to agree partly with Deputy Costello on the offence of importing, which seems to be on a par sentencing-wise with drug trafficking. it is a more serious offence because it is the genesis of many of the other offences that occur. There should be some distinguishing of this offence in sentencing. On mandatory sentencing, the committee visited the Supreme Court in Massachusetts recently and saw that it has provisions for an assessment on an ongoing basis of judicial conduct, including internal and external conduct in sentencing, for example. There is an independent mechanism for this. While judicial discretion is essential for the administration of any justice system, consistency of sentencing is probably more desirable. I ask the Minister to examine whether something from some of the models the committee viewed could be introduced here.

I heard the Minister say he has a particularly good regard for district judges and such people, as do I. However, I often take severe exception to the way in which they treat witnesses, sometimes gardaí and sometimes defendants. It is not their jobs to ridicule and belittle people in the witness box. This is an abuse of their positions. There should be some mechanism for ensuring they are brought to account when they overstep the line in this regard as it does not help the administration of justice or the regard for justice. We should try to take steps in this respect.

On the matter of supply of drugs in prison, I have one reservation relating to people found in possession within the vicinity of a prison. People with drugs for their own use could have the accusation of intending to supply the prison used against them, which could lead to circumstances where someone who did not intend to commit that crime could be found guilty of it. This matter needs to be examined. I agree with the drugs offenders' register and the attacks on emergency workers provisions. I welcome the Minister's statement that ASBOs will be a last resort. From the models the committee has examined, it is the last step in a community policing framework. This must be enshrined in any steps we take. It may be necessary to have presented to the courts the precise steps that have been taken in advance of an order. This should be in writing as it is sometimes too easy to stand up and give a generalisation of what one has done. If it must be put in writing, one will be much more circumspect about what is included. It should be a requirement when applying to the courts for an anti-social behaviour order that the precise steps already taken to correct the situation be spelled out.

I do not share Deputy Costello's reservations about the age limit. Very rarely do we see fairly serious crimes being committed by people of a very young age. It is important that in these instances, the judicial system is able to deal with them. We need provisions in law. I welcome the court being given the power to bind parents to being active participators in the process. There should be greater accountability of parents in the judicial system regarding how their children function in society. I am aware there are children who are incorrigible, for which we must make allowances, but parents are not exercising their responsibilities in many instances. Often, one will see the same families from one generation to the next being the main culprits in crime within communities. This must be stopped and holding parents to account is a step I welcome.

My last point concerns the firmness of sentencing, which is very good. If a person reoffends during the subsequent period, does the first sentence run consecutively with the sentence for a subsequent offence? There has been much criticism of concurrent sentencing for people who reoffend while on bail. We must move towards consecutive sentencing rather than concurrent sentencing. I wonder what is the thinking behind the time limit of six months. Why is this not 12 months?

Much of our prison population is made up of people on short sentences. The deferment of sentences and moving away from custodial sentences to other forms of punishment, such as community service or the restrictions mentioned here, should be examined. If someone commits an offence meriting a four month sentence and an alternative mechanism is in place, such as community service for 12 months, the four month sentence should be hanging over the person in conjunction with any further sentence. We could do much to relieve the pressure on prisons. Prison also has a contaminating effect on those who receive a custodial sentence.

I welcome the Minister and his officials to the committee. I welcome the debate on this Bill as we have noticed crime increasing in the State over the summer. We have seen horrific deaths in our city and throughout the country. As legislators, we have a duty to develop a well thought out response to address all aspects of crime. We must do something about the drugs issue, violent crime, attacks on emergency workers and matters relating to anti-social behaviour orders. These issues are regularly raised by constituents.

There must be a major push for confidence in the Garda Síochána. Corruption and sleaze must be rooted out of the Garda Síochána. A clean, fresh start is needed and the Minister must do something about it as it is part of his brief. I encourage the Minister and senior ranks in the Garda Síochána to ensure greater efficiency and professionalism in the police force, as this is urgently needed. In order for the citizens to develop trust and confidence, an ombudsman is needed. Respect must be earned by the police force.

An important aspect of crime and anti-social behaviour is the development of community policing. A few months ago many of us saw community policing at work in inner-city London. In one station 120 out of 350 officers were designated to community policing. These were involved in anti-social behaviour and crime prevention and were able to lower the level of crime by 50% to 60% because of their 24-hour presence on streets and in estates and flat complexes. That is an important response to anti-social behaviour.

Violent crime on our streets has got out of hand and I encourage the Minister and senior gardaí to get their act together regarding this matter as the current situation is unacceptable. On a more trivial issue, which is still important, I am not too upset about fireworks at Hallowe'en. If it causes problems for some elderly people, the Garda Síochána will look after it. I would not recommend spending months on this legislation. I recommend that the Minister and his officials examine how France deals with this matter. It is possible to have firework displays without anti-social behaviour. Thousands of well-mannered teenagers and kids attend these events. The French put on supervised fireworks exhibitions and these work well, with no major issues arising. Creating an underground trade and allowing smuggling of fireworks across the Border will not help.

With regard to anti-social behaviour orders, community policing is extremely important. Having enough police in the community will prevent thuggery and threats and will deal with the situation throughout the city whereby people who live alone are victims of attacks. In my previous job I worked in the inner city for 20 years and it is important to state that 85% of children aged between four and 12 years in the most disadvantaged parts of Dublin get on with their lives. They are well-behaved, go to school, do their homework, play football, listen to music and do not bother their neighbours, even in the toughest flat complexes. The 15% of children causing problems come from violent and dysfunctional families that are in extreme crisis. In the debate on anti-social behaviour orders, we seem to label and blame young children. We should not forget that the vast majority of children in this State are well behaved, have manners and show respect, even those in the toughest areas.

We should examine their parents and families as examples of good practice of how to rear children, particularly, as Senator Walsh stated, if one is trying to break the cycle of families involved in crime. If we have parents in flat complexes in Dublin doing an excellent job in their communities — as is the case in my constituency — we should give them assistance, develop them and use them as examples of good practice. Let us not get carried away on the issue of anti-social behaviour orders. More community policing and more help for children at risk is my response.

I welcome the Minister's proposal on street warnings. I also welcome the good behaviour contract and the Garda diversion programme. These are sensible proposals and should be developed further.

I wish to ask the Minister a question on firearms and violent crime, although I do not know if he will have time to answer it. What is his up to date position on an amnesty? If we had an amnesty, we might get thousands of guns off the streets and out of communities. That might improve the situation.

I welcome the fact that the Minister is open to new ideas and suggestions. We need a wider approach because any society that does not tackle poverty, child neglect, dysfunctional and at-risk families, violence against women, violent crime and organised crime, including corporate crime, is not serious about dealing with crime and protecting the rights of citizens.

I also welcome the Minister and his staff. I will be as brief as possible. I welcome the Minister's proposals and know from what he stated that much thought has gone into them. I look forward to further debate at a later stage. Has the Minister examined the definition of anti-social behaviour? One of the questions that will be asked of all of us, particularly those working on the committee, is whether the Minister will leave it to the discretion of Garda superintendents or if he has arrived at a definition.

Has the Minister considered the reparation project in Nenagh where the instance of recidivism is at an extremely low rate? I welcome the support of the Opposition parties in the work of the reparation project. One cannot but be impressed by the fact that offenders do not reoffend because they make reparation to the local community as well as being accountable for their actions.

I welcome the proposal that a child must be in some way accountable for his or her actions and must enter into a contract of good behaviour. That is extremely positive. They should also make amends in some way to the community in which they have offended. Reparation projects are in operation in Nenagh and Tallaght and others will be put in place in Ballinasloe and Athlone. There is clearly a role for reparation, whereby amends must be made to the community and the person offended against and it merits inclusion in the examination of this area.

The Minister referred to sentencing. There is a need for additional staff within the probation and welfare service. Each time representatives of that service appear before this committee, they stress the need for additional staff. We cannot commend highly enough the work they carry out, both within the prisons system and in the wider community, particularly in the area of crime prevention. We should focus on the area of crime prevention, particularly with this Bill. The Minister has made some strides in this regard but we definitely need more staff in the probation and welfare service. We will be examining the budget of that service later in the year and I hope the Minister's proposed figures will reflect the need to increase staffing levels.

I welcome the Minister and acknowledge that many important points have been made by previous speakers. I welcome much of what the Minister said. However, I wish to comment on the firearms provisions and the proposal to amend the firearms Acts.

I hope the Minister has had or is engaged in discussions with the NARGC, which is an important body, particularly in rural areas. Certain firearms will be restricted and I would welcome clarification from the Minister in that regard. It is proposed that a new offence will be created which concerns the modification of firearms. The Minister made specific reference to sawn-off shotguns and I agree with what he said. However, people who own firearms and take part in clay pigeon shooting — I include myself in this regard — often modify such firearms by changing chokes. I hope that common sense will prevail and that such modifications will not be punished under the legislation.

There is a serious issue regarding the use of silencers on guns, of which I do not approve. I am aware that silencers are being used in certain locations where people are poaching and using dangerous rifles to shoot deer. That is an area the Minister might examine.

Another area that merits further examination is gun safety. The NCT is designed to remove unsafe cars from the road. There are large numbers of very old and unsafe guns in the community, many of which are kept only because of their sentimental value. People should be afforded the opportunity to make such guns safe by removing the firing mechanism. The Garda could then be informed that people are still in possession of such guns, for which a nominal licence fee would be payable annually.

The Minister referred to the provision of a payment for the surrender of firearms in certain circumstances. There are many guns being held illegally and some family members who are aware of this will cash in such weapons, thus preventing many potentially serious problems. I compliment the Minister on the Criminal Justice Bill in general and on certain sections in particular. I hope we will have the opportunity to discuss it in further detail at a later date.

I know that time is of the essence but I understand that once the heads of the Bill and the proposed amendments are put to Government, they will be presented to this committee as soon as possible thereafter. This will ensure that we will be able to discuss them well in advance of the Committee Stage debate.

I welcome the contributions from all members. I would prefer to hand over all of the heads of the Bill being worked on in the Department to this committee now. However, there are 14 other people in the Cabinet who may object on the grounds that we must act together on this matter and that they should be informed before others. Constitutional convention requires that I go to them first and then return here. I will do so as soon as I can because it is my intention that the members of this committee will, as soon as possible, have a clear view of where I am going with my ideas. I reiterate my plea that others approach me with proposals if they do not concur completely with the Government's plans.

There is a degree of misunderstanding over some issues that have arisen. The Children Act 2001 contains a section that has not been commenced which states that no child under the age of 12 years, can in any circumstance commit any offence under criminal law. If two 11 year olds threw a child over a cliff or under a train, no criminal prosecution could be made if that section is commenced. I am not using the Minister of State, Deputy Brian Lenihan, as a comfort blanket in this matter. He and I discussed at great length whether we could commence that section and what would happen if two 11 year olds threw an eight year old over a cliff. Should we apologise and say that these events occur?

What about the Central Criminal Court?

I will discuss that matter presently. The law, as proposed, was that no child in any circumstance, even if they stated his or her intentions in advance, could be punished if that section was commenced. All that is required to make it law is that I introduce a statutory instrument. The Minister of State, Deputy Brian Lenihan, and I have discussed the matter because it concerns us that, if we followed that route, we would create a situation in which one event — thankfully rare — would cause it to be asked what possessed us to sign the section into law. It creates chaos. We are recalibrating what we believe was an overly optimistic assumption of the law at the time of enactment of the Children Act by making a general rule that a child under the age of ten is presumed incapable of committing an offence. As a general rule, therefore, eight or nine year olds will never be brought before a court.

Even if they throw a baby over a cliff.

I will address that matter. Between the ages of ten and 14 years, there will be a rebuttable presumption that the child is not sufficiently mature to commit a criminal offence. In other words, the prosecution will be in a position to argue the facts and what a child either said or did not say may be taken into account. In such circumstances, children between the ages to which I refer will be punishable. If I commenced the relevant provision of the Children Act, there would be an absolute presumption that no crime could be committed by those under 12 years. I do not believe that is correct.

An exception will apply for any offence which must be tried before the Central Criminal Court. Effectively, this relates to murder because most children under the age of ten years cannot commit serious sexual offences. With regard to murder, there will be a rebuttable presumption that no child between seven and ten years can have the capacity to murder another child. This means that if two nine year olds throw a six year old over a cliff, there will be a rebuttable presumption that the nine year olds were incapable of understanding their actions. The prosecution may rebut the presumption if it presents clear evidence that the accused planned their actions, were capable of knowing what they were doing and that the event was not a frolic that went wrong.

Why does the Minister not start that at the age of 12 years rather than ten?

To take an example, if two nine year olds were to throw a child under a train or over a cliff and it emerged afterwards that it was planned and that they had discussed it at school the day before in the presence of another nine year old, it could be proven and the presumption could be rebutted. I hope this does not happen to any family but if tomorrow a child were thrown over a cliff, under a train or over a motorway bypass by two nine year olds, could this committee then indicate that nothing could be done legally? Such an action could do immense damage. The scales of justice must be balanced, and circumstances may arise where a prosecutor might have clear evidence of a premeditated plan by nine year olds to kill a small child. Such people should be punished.

Why not draw the line at 12 years and have it rebuttable in those circumstances?

The Deputy is discussing all crime.

That is what is contained in the Children Act.

We believe strongly that the Children Act got it wrong. If I sign the statutory instrument, it would cause chaos if an exceptional case occurred six months later. People would ask why it was made into law. If I commenced the Children Act as it stands, an 11 year old would be able to walk down a street knowing that nobody could do anything to him or her if he or she carried out a criminal act with a knife, for example.

There could be a rebuttable presumption.

I am happy to have a rebuttable presumption, and it is rebuttable between ages ten and 14 years as a general rule. However, for the very serious offence of murder, it is rebuttable between the ages of seven and ten years. The Deputy has said he hopes to occupy my position, and we will have to deal with this issue in the fullness of time. Hypothetically, could the Deputy look the parents of a six year old in the eye and apologise, stating that it was correct to make this type of offence completely impossible to prosecute, despite an abundance of evidence that a number of nine year olds threw the parents' child over a cliff? Could the Deputy state that nothing could be done under criminal law and those children would go home and go to school the next day, as there was an air of liberalism when the law was brought to this point? We must be careful about these issues and not be overly optimistic.

With regard to ten to 14 year olds, what has been discussed is very likely as children are maturing younger. It is likely that serious offences will be committed by children in that category.

Is the Minister talking about the sexual area?

Yes, along with others. When a trader sees his or her windows smashed by a volley of bricks fired by 11 or 12 year olds, somebody must be in a position to assist. The trader would not want to be told that a social worker will be dispatched to have a case conference in six months time to deal with the issue. Such people cannot be told that their only recourse will be that somebody from the HSE will intervene. A society cannot be based wholly on such a notion.

We want to commence the Children Act and operate it, but the Legislature got it wrong, for example, by letting through the provision that an 11 year old could never commit a crime.

The Minister should have a chat with his predecessor, Deputy O'Donoghue, about this.

It has nothing to do with him. The Minister of State, Deputy Brian Lenihan, wants to implement the Children Act but he is examining this Act of a previous Parliament which, if commenced, could cause chaos. It could cause a deep sense of injustice and outrage if it were implemented in its present form. These cases will undoubtedly be extremely rare and exceptional, but I do not want to be the Minister who said that two nine year olds could throw a six year old off a motorway bridge in front of a car and could have planned it the day before, but nothing could be done about it. They would then be able to go back to school the next day and the parents of the six year old would know that was what society did for them. I do not think anyone in this room would like to be the person who created that situation.

I want to ask the Minister one question.

It is 4.30 p.m.

As regards Senator Moylan's point about firearms, we are in consultation with the bodies mentioned. I hope to bring them along with the process and to deal with all the issues he mentioned. It is not my intention to say that someone who modifies a firearm for a perfectly reasonable purpose commits an offence. However, a sawn-off shotgun is only there for one purpose. I have not heard of Olympic medals being handed out for a sawn-off shotgun event.

I agree that all these measures and those in the Bill are not a total answer to every problem with which we are dealing. I went last weekend to Lough Keel —The Sunday Times should note that — in County Roscommon. I visited a youth diversion programme which caters for children from across the country. That type of work is important. Gardaí and volunteers are doing things to help children at risk of delinquency. Resources are needed, as Deputy Hoctor said, in those areas. I hope — I do not want to make a rash commitment — to increase the resources we put into that territory. Many legislative measures are reactive and suppressive. We should be creating an environment where children get guidance and assistance to prevent them from getting into the juvenile justice machinery in the first place.

This Bill is our only opportunity during the lifetime of this Dáil to make a significant change to criminal justice. There will not be two or three more Bills unless a dire emergency arises.

Is the Minister speaking with the knowledge of a date?

It has taken a long time, but legislation takes time.

Should we arrange the Minister's convention?

We must make this Bill as good as we can. This will be the major criminal justice legislation in the lifetime of this Dáil. I am trying within the parameters of Dáil and Seanad procedures to create as inclusive an approach as possible to the Bill's drafting in order that when it passes both Houses of the Oireachtas, it will be as good as we can collectively make it.

I thank the Minister. We look forward to meeting him when the proposed amendments are tabled.

May I ask one question?

I ask the Deputy to be brief.

Is the new proposed age for criminal responsibility in line with the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child? I understand it is 12 years in the convention.

I understand it is consistent with our international obligations.

Does the Minister mean our current law?

No, I am talking about what we are proposing to do.

Perhaps we can consider that before our next meeting with the Minister.

The joint committee went into private session at 4.35 p.m. and adjourned at 4.40 p.m. sine die.

Top
Share