JOINT COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE, EQUALITY, DEFENCE AND WOMEN'S RIGHTS debate -
Tuesday, 2 Dec 2008

Traveller Focus Week: Discussion with Pavee Point.

Chairman

I welcome Ms Ronnie Fay and members of Pavee Point. I draw attention to the fact that while members of the joint committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not extend to witnesses appearing before the committee which cannot guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it. Furthermore, under the salient rulings of the Chair, members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Before I ask Ms Fay to introduce those attending with her, I advise members that we must conclude at 3 p.m. as the Ceann Comhairle is launching a handbook for Pavee Point later this afternoon. I invite Ms Fay to make her presentation.

Ms Ronnie Fay

I thank the Chairman. We are delighted to be here during Traveller Focus Week. I will ask my colleagues to introduce themselves.

Ms Mary-Brigid Collins

I am here to represent Pavee Point.

Mr. Patrick Collins

I am a youth worker in Pavee Point.

Ms Missy Collins

I am a primary health care worker with Travellers.

Mr. Martin Collins

I am assistant director of Pavee Point.

Ms Brigid Collins

I am a youth worker in Pavee Point.

Ms Ronnie Fay

As we do not have much time, I will focus on three key issues: Traveller culture and identity; political representation of the Traveller community; and Traveller inclusion in anti-racism and intercultural initiatives. My colleague, Mr. Martin Collins, will speak on these issues and we hope a discussion will follow.

Traveller Focus Week is an initiative funded by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. It is one week during the year when we can focus positively on Traveller initiatives. This year the theme is intercultural dialogue. This is appropriate, given developments in interculturalism.

Mr. Martin Collins

I thank the joint committee for giving Pavee Point the opportunity to present some key issues of concern to us. It is important to remind ourselves of the context in which the Traveller community finds itself. International and domestic bodies concerned with human rights and equality have presented evidence that Travellers continue to be one of the most marginalised and excluded groups in society. This manifests itself in a number of ways. For example, the unemployment rate among Travellers is 78% compared with 8% among the general population. There is a very low level of educational attainment among Travellers. For example, only 63 Travellers completed secondary education in 2006. The health status of Travellers is also of concern. For example, Traveller men live, on average, 12 years less than settled men, while Traveller women, on average, live 12 years less than settled women. Discrimination is an issue about which we are very concerned. In successive opinion polls Travellers emerge as one of the most despised and ostracised groups in society. In 2000 Behaviour & Attitudes conducted a survey of discriminatory attitudes towards a range of people and found that 80% of those surveyed would not want a Traveller as a friend, while 97% would not accept a Traveller as a member of their family. Despite Government policy and the Housing (Traveller Accommodation) Act 1998, we still have 1,700 Traveller families living on the side of the road without basic essentials such as sanitation, electricity, heat and water.

Traveller organisations acknowledge that there have been much analysis and thinking on developing policy on the issues which concern us. Nevertheless, there is a huge gulf between policy development and policy implementation. Our key concern in Pavee Point is that the current arrangements for implementation of Traveller policy are not effective. There is, therefore, an obligation on all of us, Traveller organisations and the State, to examine new structures and mechanisms for implementation of Traveller policy across the spectrum, including education, health, accommodation and equality. Travellers are also excluded from the high level senior officials group, despite calls from many bodies, domestic and international, for Traveller organisations to be allowed to participate in decision-making processes that impact on the lives of Travellers. For this reason, it is a huge concern that Traveller organisations are excluded from the high level senior officials group.

No Traveller has been elected to the national Parliament, although two have been elected as councillors. While we welcome this, the overall situation is totally unsatisfactory. In 2006 the committee for the Framework Convention on the Protection of National Minorities called on the Government to take positive measures to promote the inclusion of Travellers in the political process. This year the visiting Council of Europe Commissioner for Human Rights, Mr. Thomas Hammerberg, also called on it to facilitate Traveller representatives in the Oireachtas. He specifically recommended the provision of a permanent Seanad seat for Travellers. We hope the committee will consider this measure. Similar measures have been enacted in many eastern European countries regarding members of the Roma community.

Another issue of concern is the recognition of Travellers as an ethnic minority, which is of paramount importance. The Government refuses to recognise Travellers as an ethnic group, despite calls, nationally and internationally, from respected human rights organisations. The Government acknowledges that Travellers have a separate, distinct cultural identity but fails to recognise them as an ethnic group, which has symbolic and practical implications. Traveller organisations and Travellers recognise that they are an indigenous ethnic minority. It is important to clarify that being indigenous does not preclude recognition of a separate ethnic status; this is reflected in many countries. The importance of recognising Travellers as an ethnic group is apparent when we consider the necessity to include them in national anti-racism and intercultural initiatives. This is especially important, as the Minister of State, Deputy Conor Lenihan, has made it clear that Travellers will not be included within his remit. This is disappointing and causes concern. The ending of the national action plan against racism, NAPAR, coupled with the disbandment of the National Consultative Committee on Racism and Interculturalism and savage cuts at the Equality Authority and the Human Rights Commission, begs the question of how Traveller inclusion and integration might be addressed in the future. We seek full and unequivocal recognition of Travellers as an ethnic minority, as this would have symbolic and practical implications. The practical implications relate to policy development and service provision ranging from health care to education and accommodation.

We must be innovative in exploring new methods for implementation of Traveller policy because current systems are totally ineffective and not delivering the desired outcomes. The experience and expertise Traveller organisations can offer should be recognised. We seek more meaningful participation and engagement with the State to progress Traveller issues. In that regard, we seek to participate in the high level senior officials group. We want the Oireachtas to put in place positive action measures to help recruit Travellers to the Houses. A symbolic move in this regard would be to nominate a Traveller to the Seanad. This is not a measure that was first mentioned today or yesterday; Traveller organisations have campaigned consistently for this during the past 15 or 20 years. A government in a mature, vibrant democracy should consider this measure seriously.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Collins and Ms Fay. My first question is to Mr. Collins. He is correct in saying Travellers face discrimination but I always get the impression — this applies to the presentation made today and other utterances — that the settled community is criticised for discriminating against Travellers. Is Mr. Collins of the view that some of this discrimination is caused by the faults of members of the Traveller community? Do they help to foster the resentment felt against them?

Mr. Martin Collins

I accept to a degree that an element of the Traveller community, like every other community, behaves in a totally unacceptable way. This may relate to criminal activity, anti-social behaviour, violence, fist fights and thieving. There are such elements in every community and ours is no different. This behaviour does not help but I am concerned that some in society, including commentators, analysts and journalists, use it to justify and rationalise the exclusion of Travellers. That is what we are concerned about. We must ensure the behaviour of rogue elements in our community is not used as an excuse to rationalise its further marginalisation.

Chairman

I accept that answer but Traveller organisations never seem to express the point of view that there is a problem in the Traveller community.

Mr. Martin Collins

Again, with respect, I completely disagree with the Chairman. Pavee Point has been in existence for around 24 years. When we first set out, we were involved in lobbying, campaigning and representing the interests and concerns of Travellers; we still are. This means meeting politicians, policymakers and legislators. However, the past six or seven years have seen the growing maturity and confidence of Pavee Point and the general Traveller movement; we now hold a mirror up to ourselves and reflect on practices in our community that do not help it. We are trying to develop strategies to deal with matters such as arranged fist fights, violence and general anti-social behaviour. We have been to the fore in this regard, although this is only sometimes reported in the media. It must be acknowledged that we have consistently challenged anti-social and criminal behaviour in our community. We work extensively, through our mediation service, with the Garda Síochána, particularly the Garda racial and intercultural office, in trying to develop a positive relationship between the Garda and Travellers.

Chairman

Mr. Collins mentioned fist fighting. I come from Waterford where there is an ongoing feud. Three members of the Traveller community appeared on the front page of one of our local newspapers last week saying they were ready to settle matters with the other families involved in the feud in bare-knuckle fighting. I have not heard any member of the Traveller community condemn this approach and the feud generally.

Mr. Martin Collins

My colleagues may like to contribute but I disagree with the Chairman. I have appeared in the media on this matter and on "Prime Time" around four weeks ago to address the issue of arranged fist fights. I have been very consistent and clear in condemning such incidents. I described the practice as barbaric, primitive, animalistic and tribal in nature and have been challenged by other Travellers for being so strong in my condemnation. However, it is too easy to condemn and demonise; the more challenging aspect is finding a solution. What strategies can be deployed to address the issues that give rise to the violence in the first place? The rhetoric of condemnation rolls off the tongue easily but the challenge for all of us, including the Garda, Travellers, local authorities and the Government, is to collectively devise strategies to ensure such incidents do not recur.

I will move to a point which is connected to what has been discussed. I have not heard any politician condemn the remarks made recently by a Fianna Fáil councillor in Bagenalstown, County Carlow. He encouraged his constituents to take up firearms against Travellers. I went on the airwaves to call on the Fianna Fáil leadership to dissociate itself from these comments. I did not hear any utterance from Fianna Fáil or other politicians condemning what were hate remarks that incited violence. This is a locally elected councillor who is supposed to demonstrate leadership and vision and set an example but, in fact, did quite the opposite.

Ms Ronnie Fay

One of the other things we have been doing this week is focusing on the media. We are hugely concerned with how Traveller issues are covered because people often only hear of us in a negative context. Yesterday we came forward with some very positive initiatives but they did not feature in any media.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

The media have that problem with all of us.

Ms Ronnie Fay

We can all identify with it but in a marginalised community it is particularly difficult. People often do not hear about the positive things that are happening. We fought alongside many politicians for the creation of the Press Council but earlier this year it published a draft code of conduct which excluded Travellers from its proposals relating to equality. We did not think this was an accident, so we lobbied the Minister of State, Deputy Seán Power, and others to get it changed.

We are also considering how we can engage with politicians because many of them do not come into contact with Travellers unless there is a conflict in their constituency, meaning the engagement is negative. There needs to be Traveller representation in the Oireachtas so that things can become normal and one can hear Traveller perspectives on a range of issues, not just those specific to Travellers or focusing on conflict.

Many positive things are happening. My colleague, Ms Collins, will talk about the all-Ireland Traveller health study which was launched this month. Some 420 Travellers across the length and breadth of Ireland collected data on their community for the first time since 1987. Some 40 primary health care projects have begun throughout the country and other positive work is being done which does not get enough recognition. It is important those stories are covered and that there is much more positive contact, instead of the negative coverage which reinforces stereotypes.

Ms Missy Collins

When primary health care began in Pavee Point and I began my training I was told it would not work. I asked why and was told it was because it involved a Traveller talking to a Traveller and, moreover, that middle aged Traveller women could not read or write. I said that the proof of the pudding would be in the eating of the pudding and I urged people to find out the needs of Travellers. We visited them in very bad conditions but found all the information we wanted because we were trusted among our own people. We brought that information to the health providers and became community health workers for ourselves.

Our health status is only now reaching the standard enjoyed by the settled population in the 1940s and not many live to the age of 65. Infant mortality is three times that of the settled population. When the President saw the figures she told us we did not need to say any more to her. Our health is comparable to a Third World country.

We have been around for centuries. I am annoyed that I have to say so but we are Irish and we are white. I lived in England for more than 30 years but, 18 years ago, decided to come home to Ireland to bring my family up and see them married in Ireland. Being a Traveller is nothing to be ashamed of but I call on people to respect and recognise us. As Mr. Collins said, by being recognised as an ethnic group we would be classed as different. My brother won a case in England to be regarded as a member of an ethnic group, so Travellers are now recognised as such in England. If we were recognised as an ethnic group in Ireland it would make a great difference to us and would give us a chance. We are not all bad and when one or two Travellers do something wrong we should not all be painted with the one brush.

Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh

I believe Travellers are an ethnic group but, whether one believes it, if we recognise discrimination we create the need to tackle it. If they were to be recognised as an ethnic group they would be given certain protections. What defines an ethnic group?

My second question relates to the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2004. It was used quite extensively against Travellers but I do not know if it is still used to the same extent.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

Before Mr. Collins replies, I wish to ask a question on the same issue. This is the first I have heard of the Bagenalstown councillor. No member of this committee would stand over that behaviour and I have no reservations about condemning it as entirely inappropriate.

How committed are the witnesses to the objective of being classified as a separate ethnic group? There is an argument that they are Irish, like everybody else. They were born and live here. The issues that need to be focused on are health, child mortality, education and housing, all of which are more important than separate ethnicity. Traveller people have been here for longer than a great many of the rest of us and it is shameful that children die from malnutrition at a very young age.

The point Ms Collins made about the life expectancy of Travellers is also relevant. We should deal with the issues of health, education and housing because they are the important issues, rather than create an objective around being a separate ethnic group. Deputy Ó Snodaigh has approached the question from a different perspective but what does ethnicity bring to the situation that a focus on the key issues would not bring?

Mr. Martin Collins

On the question of whether Travellers should be recognised and how committed we are to the objective, it is a very important part of our work in Pavee Point, as it is for other Traveller organisations. Yesterday we launched a document, in collaboration with the Human Rights Commission, which deals with cultural rights. The Human Rights Commission, the Equality Authority, the National Consultative Committee on Racism and Interculturalism and the UN and Council of Europe human rights bodies have all consistently called on the Irish Government to recognise Travellers as an ethnic group, so there is a growing pressure to do so which the State can no longer ignore.

The cultural rights paper we launched yesterday is, in part, focused on recognising Travellers as an ethnic group. Human rights lawyers, academics, anthropologists and sociologists suggest that being recognised as an ethnic group puts an increased obligation and onus on the State to make resources available and create the conditions whereby a group can preserve and promote its identity. I am not a human rights lawyer or an academic. I am led to believe that when I was 13 years old I was forced out of school to pick potatoes for a farmer. Not to recognise Travellers as an ethnic group suggests we are a dysfunctional people, which I find grossly offensive. The issue of ethnicity has symbolic and legal implications. The legal implications relate to cultural rights and the right to preserve and protect one's identity. Nomadism is a key feature of the Traveller identity. Our language has not been supported or validated by the State. In fact, it is not even perceived as a language. It is suggested it is a form of slang. The recognition of Travellers as an ethnic group would place certain obligations and responsibilities on the State to support their ethnicity through resource allocation and so forth. I accept Deputy Rabbitte's point. We would not allow that recognition to prevent us from representing the interests of Travellers on all of the issues he has outlined such as access to education, accommodation, health care, participation, representation and the elimination of inequality. Recognition of our ethnicity would not distract us from focusing on that agenda. There is, however, an interconnection between the two because one feeds the other.

Ms Ronnie Fay

This issue is particularly pertinent, given the axing of the National Consultative Committee on Racism and Interculturalism and the ending of the national action plan against racism, both of which were inclusive of Travellers. The responsibilities of the bodies concerned are being transferred to the Minister of State with special responsibility for integration, from whose brief Travellers are, explicitly, excluded. He is now responsible for anti-racism and intercultural initiatives. Because Travellers are not recognised as an ethnic group, they are not seen as part of that debate. The Minister of State's brief focuses on newcomers. This development has practical implications. The Department of Education and Science is developing an intercultural education strategy which everyone will assume is inclusive of Travellers, but we have not been able to receive clarification as to whether that will be the case. The danger is that Travellers will be further marginalised. There is already evidence that Traveller children believe they are more discriminated against than newcomer children. Information on new communities is now provided as part of the curriculum. While this is very welcome, Traveller culture and way of life must be equally validated. That is how recognition of Traveller ethnicity is relevant.

Ethnic groups have two key characteristics. They have a long shared history and see themselves and are seen as different. Travellers fit these criteria. Because they are white, Catholic and speak English we have understood racism only on the basis of culture, not ethnicity. That is why it is important that Traveller ethnicity is recognised, respected and resourced. Otherwise, Travellers will be made to feel ashamed of their identity and come out of the school system ashamed of being Travellers. Two Travellers are training as general practitioners in the Royal College of Surgeons of Ireland, neither of whom will state publicly they are training, partly because of internalised oppression. Because people are ashamed, they do not want to put their heads above the parapet. Because of this, Traveller successes are not seen. They are not visible in the public domain.

Chairman

Deputy Ó Snodaigh asked about the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2002.

Mr. Martin Collins

It is draconian and repressive legislation, better known as the trespass Act. It was introduced in April 2002 in response to the behaviour or a group of Traveller families along the River Dodder. One must accept that they behaved very badly and disposed of rubbish in an irresponsible manner. This hit the headlines and was condemned by Traveller organisations. The Departments of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Environment, Heritage and Local Government used a cannon to kill a mosquito. The Act is draconian and repressive. It criminalises trespass which was seen as a civil matter and gives gardaí, local authorities and the courts the power to confiscate a Traveller's home and impose a fine of €3,000 and-or a term of imprisonment of one month. The legislation was introduced at a time when more than 1,300 Traveller families were waiting for accommodation because local authorities had failed in their statutory obligation to meet their accommodation needs. These local authorities were rewarded with this punitive and draconian legislation which compounded the problem in some respects. Whereas, traditionally, Travellers might have travelled in groups of no more than five or six families, they now, commonly, travel in groups of ten to 20 families. This is a way of dealing with the effects of the Act and the measures contained therein. The Act created a worse situation than the one it tried to resolve.

Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh

How often is the Act used?

Mr. Martin Collins

In the first two years it was used frequently but a commonsense approach is now being adopted. The Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, the lead Department concerning Traveller accommodation, established the national Traveller accommodation consultative committee. The committee's advice which has been, largely, followed by local authorities is to adopt a commonsense approach. If a Traveller family is living in a trailer illegally while waiting to be accommodated by a local authority, the authority is encouraged not to evict the family, confiscate their trailer, fine them a large sum of money or seek to have them put in prison. Instead, it is encouraged to accommodate them. There is now a policy of toleration. I do not like the word "toleration" but cannot think of a more appropriate one. We welcome the new approach being adopted.

Deputy Michael D’Arcy

I have seen Mr. Collins in the media on a number of occasions. He is as impressive in person as he is in the media. That is a credit to him.

I disagree with Ms Fay. I can only speak for myself, not for other public representatives. I have the same contact with Travellers as with anyone from the settled community. If a Traveller attends my clinic with a difficulty, he or she receives the same level of service as anyone else. I do not agree that public representatives only deal with Travellers when there is a conflict.

Would legal recognition of separate Traveller ethnicity confer particular rights? With any right comes responsibility. My greatest disappointment in dealing with Travellers is that it is very difficult to get Traveller children to go to school. The starting point for Traveller organisations must be that Traveller children go to school. Ms Fay cited the very small number of Travellers completing secondary school. I agree that this is criminal. Traveller organisations have a responsibility to persuade Travellers of the importance of schooling. Those involved in education know the Traveller families whose children will continue to attend school and those whose children will attend initially but leave within a short time. I dealt with this difficulty during the period I was chairman of County Wexford Vocational Education Committee which had a very good Traveller education programme and excellent further education provision. Pavee Point does super work. If the Traveller community is not persuaded of the importance of education, that work will be undermined by those within the Traveller community.

Does Pavee Point have a strategy to bring a significant minority, if not a majority, with it? Little acorns grow into great oak trees. That is the way forward. I am sure the delegates know more about their ethnicity than any of us do. How will they get a sizeable minority of their community to ensure their children access standard education? How will they ensure that when these children emerge from the education system, perhaps as doctors from the Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland, they will be proud of their roots?

Mr. Martin Collins

I completely concur with everything the Deputy said. These are matters we at Pavee Point find relevant and on which Ms Missy Collins and Ms Brigid Collins may wish to speak. Education is very important and greatly valued by Pavee Point. We have an education and training unit that tries to promote increased awareness in the Traveller community of the need for and value of education. Overall, we are trying to instil a sense of ambition in the community. I do not wish to use emotive language but we are discussing a community which has been oppressed and discriminated against for centuries. Travellers have been recorded as being on the island since the 5th century; as Ms Missy Collins said, we did not arrive yesterday or last week. In all this time laws and policies of containment, assimilation and discrimination were placed in their way. That is their experience to date and they have internalised it. Many Travellers believe they are a problem, that being a Traveller is a limitation and that they must change. We are trying to deconstruct this ideology by suggesting being a Traveller is not a problem; that the problem is the discrimination and prejudice directed towards Travellers as they impose limitations and obstacles. We want to say to Travellers, "You can be a doctor, nurse, social worker or politician." We just need to create the conditions to give them the opportunity to do so. If this requires positive action measures, so be it. The experience of other marginalised communities, including the Aboriginal people of Australia and the Maori people of New Zealand, has been the same. Positive action measures are required, of which a number are in place, which we welcome, but we need many more. We are trying to instil a sense of ambition, reflecting the fact that we can achieve things, aim high and be whatever we want to be.

As regards education, we were very disappointed with the implementation of the Traveller education strategy and would welcome any support the committee could give in this regard. In November 2006 an inclusive process, involving the Department of Education and Science, led to the strategy. Traveller organisations were actively and meaningfully involved in the process. However, the Traveller education advisory committee which was instrumental in the process was disbanded and has not been reconstituted. Therefore, Traveller organisations have no way to monitor whether the strategy is being implemented. The Department has stated it has no plans to reconstitute the committee. Can the joint committee lobby the Department seeking the reconstitution of the committee? We value education and the strategy is key to ensuring Traveller inclusion and participation in the education system. It could ensure good outcomes from pre-school to university but we must be involved in the process. It is despicable that the Department has not reconstituted the committee. We have campaigned, lobbied and used every possible opportunity to highlight the importance of the strategy and Traveller involvement in pursuing it. Any support in this regard would be welcome.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

I have no questions. I did not hear about what a Fianna Fáil councillor was alleged to have said but would not tolerate such comments, nor would Fianna Fáil. I will raise the matter with the general secretary today because it is very serious and disappointing for us, as elected representatives. Such language is very dangerous.

In terms of understanding, Travellers must move towards the settled community and the settled community must move towards Travellers. Pavee Point has done a great deal on its side of the fence. Deputy D'Arcy suggested it must motivate Travellers to follow its lead but the challenge lies with us to respond to the comments made by the delegates. I will not ask questions because I agree with the comments of the delegates and thank them for their work. Pavee Point has done fantastic work and its report is very interesting, although I have not had a chance to read it fully. We will study it and do anything we can to help.

Deputy Seán Connick

I also welcome the members of the delegation and thank them for their presentation. As a member of Fianna Fáil, I did not hear the comment mentioned but will raise it with the executive, as Deputy Byrne mentioned.

Like Deputy D'Arcy, I come from County Wexford where there is a large settled and transient Traveller population. I have many dealings with Travellers; I went to school, grew up and deal with Travellers commercially because there are many successful Travellers involved in the furniture business and tarmac industry in the south east. I wish to touch on a couple of points.

Due to the situation in New Ross, I have worked with Traveller men's groups and seen women involved in education through women's groups and the Revitalising Areas by Planning, Investment and Development, RAPID, process. The partnership in New Ross also deals with many Travellers. I am delighted to see Mr. Paddy Collins present, as he is a youth worker. I ask him to comment on his work and how it applies nationally. Is it rolled out in all counties? How has he found facilities relating to youth work?

I seek the opinions of the delegates on halting sites and Traveller-only accommodation. Do they believe these factors stigmatise Travellers and separate them from normal society, so to speak, or do they believe this separation is a necessity?

On the trespass Acts, I have no axe to grind with the Traveller community but this summer was one of the most difficult I had faced in dealing with Travellers moving into business parks and private housing estates. A friend of mine rented a house to a Traveller family which was part of the dispute in Waterford. The house was semi-detached and within four hours of the family being given the keys there were five caravans parked around the front and back of the house. They effectively took over a private estate for around two months. What assistance can Pavee Point give the settled and Traveller communities in such conflicts? It turned into an awkward situation for all involved and there seemed to be no help from local authorities and the Garda; everyone ran in the opposite direction. Does Pavee Point have a role in this respect and does it interact with the community in such circumstances?

I am delighted to see the delegates here and sorry the committee meeting must finish at 3 p.m. because I am sure we could discuss some of the issues involved for some time.

Mr. Paddy Collins

I am a youth worker at Pavee Point. I wish to refer to the involvement of young Travellers because much has been done in this regard. Mr. Martin Collins referred to the Traveller education strategy which was implemented in 2006. Travellers were involved in its creation. Travellers previously felt they could not achieve certain things but now the views of young Travellers are changing. My sister, Ms Brigid Collins, and I are both youth workers and know Pavee Point has done much work to get young Travellers to participate actively in society. Travellers have changed their views on the importance of education to their future. They may hear their peers in the Traveller community refer to their brothers, sisters, aunts and uncles who left school early and had no future. Young Travellers may now travel abroad to take up placements for a year or two to places such as Australia and America. They are involved in second and third level education. Their views have changed due to the work of Pavee Point.

Ms Brigid Collins may wish to comment on the involvement of young women because the employment rate for them has been very low compared to that for men. She will also comment on young Traveller women who are members of committees.

Ms Brigid Collins

We have two young women who are involved in the Children and Young People's Forum of the Office of the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs and do much work with them. I am a support worker and was a member of the forum — in fact, I was the first Traveller to be a member of it. I was told that my views were being sought to help the Government formulate strategies for young people but it was sad that not one other Traveller was involved in the forum. I was involved in the forum from the age of 16 to 18 and there are now two young Travellers involved who love attending, stating that they are Travellers and asserting the rights of young Travellers. Previously only the views of settled people were sought. Another young boy is involved in assisting the Ombudsman for Children, Ms Emily Logan. It was Ms Logan who chose him.

Mr. Paddy Collins

Changing young Travellers' views around policy is part of what we do. Representatives of young Travellers are now involved in Comhairle na nÓg, the Office of the Ombudsman for Children, and the Office of the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs. Pavee Point has done the necessary work but one or two Travellers' organisations are not taking this work as seriously regarding the future of young people. We have representatives in Dáil na nÓg, though our voice there is not strong. Last year the topic was education and the Minister of State at the Department of Education and Science, Deputy Barry Andrews, attended, though the voice of young Travellers was not strong. In the next year or two, as the Pavee Point youth programme changes, we aim to develop training for Traveller organisations. We hope the voices of Travellers will become more powerful and that in the coming years 15 to 20 young Travellers will be in Dáil na nÓg.

Ms Brigid Collins

Regarding the matter of forums, hopefully in a few years Traveller girls from all over Ireland will take part too. As Mr. Paddy Collins said, the views of young Travellers are changing and my mother knows how important education is; she did not receive an education but she made my brother and me go to school.

Pavee Point is moving away from direct work; after Christmas Mr. Paddy Collins and I will develop an action plan to get young Travellers involved in organisations, fora and comhairle all over Ireland. This will give young Travellers a say in how the Government develops policy.

Ms Mary-Brigid Collins

I have four children and I encourage them to go to school. My young boy wanted to leave last year and apply to FÁS but neither I nor the teachers wanted him to leave; they encouraged him to stay. Hopefully after Christmas he will sit his junior certificate exam but, as Ms Fay said, there is nothing in the education system to teach Travellers about Travellers. Due to bullying, it is easier for young Travellers to hide their identity than expose it to other pupils at school. For example, a couple of weeks ago my young daughter came home from school with an exercise on how to make a cup of tea. However, the way we make a cup of tea differs from the way settled people make tea. Children from different countries are in that class and they would make a cup of tea in a different way from Irish people. I told my daughter that she should explain this to the class but she said she would be ashamed to tell her fellow pupils how she makes a cup of tea. This goes to show that young Travellers learn nothing of their culture in school.

Young mothers are more involved in schools at the moment and Travellers must keep this up. A person living on a halting site that is some distance from school, sharing a single hot tap with 20 family members and without proper accommodation will have difficulty getting children to school. We visit many sites in our area and accommodation is poor. Units, including steel toilets and showers, are often outside with up to 20 electric wires running everywhere. Often other bays are not open and an entire extended family lives in a single bay. Education is important for our children to get employment, rather than rely on FÁS training centres. One can lose one's confidence and be terrified to go out and look for work. Even a job in a newsagent or the like is different from what we and our mother had. Education is very important in this regard. We must learn about each other.

Chairman

I am conscious of the time.

Deputy Michael D’Arcy

We are all wondering over here how Ms Mary-Brigid Collins makes a cup of tea.

Chairman

Deputy Connick asked whether Pavee Point has a role to play in conflict resolution.

Mr. Martin Collins

Conflict resolution applies at several levels. Conflict resolution may be necessary to build positive relationships between Travellers and the settled community. Much work must be done on healing divisions and creating reconciliation and mutual understanding. This is a large part of the work of Pavee Point. We have the confidence and maturity to look at the difficult issues facing the community. I referred to the Pavee Point mediation service, which does valuable work in supporting the capacity and developing the skill base of local Traveller projects across the country.

Chairman

I think Deputy Connick meant to refer to specific problems that might arise.

Deputy Seán Connick

A difficulty might arise where we approach the local Traveller community and members of the settled community to solve an issue.

Mr. Martin Collins

We have done that but there are only two people involved in Pavee Point's mediation service so it lacks resources. If the service is to achieve more it requires increased resources, which may not be feasible in the current economic climate. The service is valuable but it needs to be expanded.

Ms Ronnie Fay

I acknowledge that we intervened in Waterford on a confidential basis. We do this all the time. Tomorrow, as part of Traveller focus week, Bishop Willie Walsh will launch an initiative around a Traveller peace pin. It aims to get Travellers to condemn conflict in their community and make an active stand for peace. The pin is based on that of the national action plan against racism, which represents one world and five continents. The idea is that Travellers will wear this pin, a symbol that they are against conflict and in favour of peace. It will be launched tomorrow. There are many positive areas we have not had a chance to explore today.

As the young people said, we have pushed Traveller participation in Dáil na nÓg and will equally push it in Dáil Éireann. We need the committee's support in engaging Travellers in the formal political process. Our work, and that of other Traveller organisations, takes a two-pronged approach. It seeks to combat exclusion, which means we must challenge policy-makers and service-providers to do their jobs better. It is also about promoting inclusion, which relates to challenging Travellers and taking opportunities like going to school. This is the two-pronged approach; it cannot all be on one side or the other, we must work in partnership. This is what we stand for.

Deputy Seán Connick

Very briefly, I asked a question on halting sites, exclusion and inclusion. Do the delegates have a view on the best possible scenario?

Mr. Martin Collins

We cannot be totally prescriptive. The Housing (Traveller Accommodation) Act 1998 specifies the spectrum from a group housing scheme provision, local authority standard housing, once-off instant purchases and so on. It encompasses the entire spectrum of different types of dwellings.

In terms of isolation and segregation, in some cases Traveller families live in local authority housing estates in a predominantly settled environment. Those Travellers will find themselves more isolated and segregated than Traveller families on halting sites. It is not a case of one or the other.

Deputy Michael D’Arcy

I am just wondering how the delegates make a cup of tea; we are all wondering about this over here.

Ms Mary-Brigid Collins

Our cup of tea would be different from that of the settled community. Members of the settled community put the tea bag in the mug; we boil a kettle and throw in four or five tea bags. We make a fine pot of tea and the Deputy will get a cup if he comes to visit. We will invite the Deputy.

Chairman

I thank the committee members, Ms Fay, Mr. Martin Collins and the delegation here today. Could Ms Fay or Mr. Martin Collins write to the clerk on the education committee that was disbanded, the views of the delegates in this regard and what should now happen? We will read the letter with a view to seeing what we can do through the Department of Education and Science, the Joint Committee on Education and Science or another channel. We may be able to help in that regard.

Ms Ronnie Fay

The inclusion of Travellers in anti-racism and intercultural matters is the biggest issue at the moment. It would be hugely negative for Travellers to be excluded.

Chairman

I thank everyone for attending. This discussion has been a great help to the committee in considering the relevant issues. No doubt we will return to these matters in future. As Deputy Connick said, it would have been nice to have had more time but I know the report is now to be launched upstairs. I thank the delegates again.

Ms Missy Collins

If I could say one more thing. I hope my grandchildren or great grandchildren will sit in a building like this. In such circumstances there might be no need for Traveller Focus Week; we could integrate and be accepted for who we are.

Chairman

We would all like that to happen.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.10 p.m. sine die.