Skip to main content
Normal View

JOINT COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE, EQUALITY, DEFENCE AND WOMEN'S RIGHTS debate -
Wednesday, 1 Apr 2009

Bilateral Agreements: Motion.

We will now consider the exercise by the State of the option to take part in the adoption and application of proposals (a) for a Council regulation establishing a procedure for negotiation and conclusion of bilateral agreements between member states and third countries concerning sectoral matters and covering jurisdiction, recognition and enforcement of judgments in matrimonial matters, parental responsibility and maintenance obligations, and applicable law matters relating to maintenance obligations; and (b) for a regulation of the European Parliament and of the Council establishing a procedure for negotiation and conclusion of bilateral agreements between member states and third countries concerning sectoral matters and covering applicable law in contractual and non-contractual obligations.

I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Conor Lenihan, and his officials. Before commencing, I advise everyone that we will receive a presentation, which will be followed by questions and answers. I request that all mobile phones be switched off. I draw everyone's attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege this privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. The committee cannot guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it. Further, under a salient ruling of the Chair, members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official, by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

On behalf of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, I thank the committee for making the necessary time available so that these proposals can be debated and discussed in the context of the Oireachtas scrutiny which is mandated by Article 29.4.6° of Bunreacht na hÉireann. By now, committee members will be very familiar with this procedure, as similar motions have come before the committee for approval on numerous occasions in the past. On previous occasions Deputies and Senators have made very useful observations on the proposals which have been brought before them. I look forward to hearing the comments of those who contribute to the debate today.

There are two proposals before us on this occasion. Those proposals are very similar in their aim, which is to devise a procedure which will enable member states to enter into bilateral agreements with third countries where those agreements cover certain sectors within the civil justice area. At present, because only the European Community, rather than the member states, is competent to act in the area covered by the proposals, member states are precluded from entering into such agreements. The two proposals are presented separately as differing voting regimes will apply. One proposal deals with specific areas of family law and will be adopted by unanimity in the Council, in consultation with the European Parliament. The other proposal deals with applicable law issues in relation to both contractual and non-contractual obligations and will be adopted by qualified majority voting in co-decision with the European Parliament.

I referred earlier to the existence of exclusive Community competence in the areas covered by the proposals. At present, where there is such competence in relation to a particular subject matter, the freedom of individual member states to enter into bilateral agreements covering that subject matter is severely curtailed. This is giving rise to difficulties for those member states which, for reasons of history and politics, have an extensive network of such agreements.

From an Irish perspective, the mechanism offered by the proposals is unlikely to be availed of in the near future as our preference hitherto has been to operate within a multilateral framework. However, if we were to engage in such agreements at a future date, it would be necessary for us to opt into one or both of the proposals now on the table. Consequently, I am of the view that it is desirable that Ireland opts into the adoption and implementation of the proposals at this stage, in order to maximise our ability to influence the shape of the outcome of negotiations.

The proposals themselves, as I have already explained, are identical in substance. The objective of the proposals is to establish a procedure which allows an assessment to be made as to whether there is or is not a sufficient Community interest in the conclusion of proposed bilateral agreements with third countries in certain matters concerning judicial co-operation in civil and commercial matters. This is relevant only in matters which fall under the exclusive competence of the Community. In the absence of Community interest, member states may be authorised to conclude these agreements with third countries. I should add that, in this context, the term "Community interest" has a rather technical meaning. It does not mean a disinclination on the part of the Community to have an agreement with the third country in question. Rather, it relates to whether or not the conclusion of the agreement would impact, in an inappropriate manner, on the existing body of Community law.

In general terms, it is proposed that the member state which wishes to enter into a bilateral agreement would notify the Commission of its intention to undertake negotiations on a new agreement. Notification would also be relevant where there is a wish to amend an existing agreement. If the Community has already concluded an agreement on the same subject matter with the third country concerned or if such an agreement is anticipated, the member state is not allowed to negotiate or conclude the agreement with that third country.

Where these constraints do not exist, the Commission may grant authorisation, provided that two conditions are met. The first condition is that the member state concerned has demonstrated that it has a specific interest in concluding an agreement with the third country. The second is that the Commission determines that the proposed agreement is of limited impact on the uniform and consistent application of Community rules and on the proper functioning of the system established by those rules.

Before finalising the agreement, the member state concerned must notify the Commission of the outcome of the negotiations. The Commission will assess, in particular, whether and to what extent the proposed agreement is likely to affect the body of Community law in force. If the Commission's evaluation is positive, it will give its authorisation. Otherwise, the member state concerned will not be authorised to proceed with the agreement.

The proposals also contain transitional provisions which are to be applied in cases where, at the time of the entry into force of the regulations, the member state concerned has already started negotiations with the third country or has already concluded them, but has not yet given its consent to be bound by the agreement.

Because the authorisation to member states derogates from the rule that the Community is exclusively competent to conclude international agreements on these matters, the European Commission has taken the view that the procedure must be regarded as an exceptional measure and must be limited in scope and in time. For that reason the proposals also provide for the inclusion in the bilateral agreements of what is known as a sunset clause to limit the validity in time of the agreements concluded by the member states until the point when the Community concludes an agreement on the same subject matters with the third country concerned. Furthermore, it is proposed that application of the regulations be limited to 31 December 2014.

It is the Government's view that it is important that Ireland responds positively to the making of these proposals by exercising our right to opt into all of the negotiations from an early stage. On behalf of the Minister, I hope the committee will support this approach. I need hardly add that any points raised by members of the committee on the current draft proposals will be noted and will be taken into account during the negotiation process. I look forward to members' comments and questions.

I wish to support the motion on behalf of Fine Gael. It is entirely consistent with the provisions of the Lisbon treaty. Have we already entered into any such agreements with countries other than EU member states? We have, currently, enforcement of judgments within member states and recognition of maintenance payments and family law agreements between member states. I assume that what we are doing now is extending that to other states, should such procedures be appropriate. I would be surprised if we have not done some of this already. The proposal appears to be consistent with the Lisbon treaty and I am happy to support it.

The short answer is "No". We do not have such agreements. I appreciate Deputy Flanagan's support on this matter. As he probably knows, this is an issue for new member states which had agreements with the former Soviet states and continue to have agreements of that kind. That is why they are being facilitated in this manner. It is not really an issue for us.

On behalf of the Labour Party, I have no problem supporting the proposals and regulations before us. The Minister of State has clarified that the regulation relates to pre-existing agreements. Important issues that we see as Deputies in our constituencies relate to this matter; for example, access to children. A person whose partner is from a country outside the European Union may take the children of the relationship to that country. How will that impact on the parent remaining in Ireland? How can marriages in countries outside the European Union be dissolved under Irish law? Problems arise from time to time in these areas. It is not intended that the regulations should apply beyond 31 December 2014 and that they will be used a great deal. In cases where problems such as the ones I outlined arise, is there an expectation progress can be made in vindicating and protecting the rights of Irish-born children and parents who remain in Ireland when another parent leaves the country?

The Brussels II regulation concerns jurisdiction and the recognition and enforcement of judgments in matrimonial matters and matters of parental responsibility. The regulation covers the European Union, pending the introduction of a worldwide agreement.

Is that the upshot of what is in front of us?

No. This is a regulation purely confined to the European Union. It relates to member states with pre-existing arrangements with regard to the enforcement of matrimonial contracts with countries outside the European Union. In other words, the ten accession countries from 2004 may have had pre-existing arrangements on matrimonial matters owing to the fact that many of them were part of the Soviet bloc. This measure tidies up that area and affords temporary recognition. The European Union's intention is to move towards a wider agreement with these countries. This does not affect Ireland because we do not have matrimonial contracts enforcement agreements with other countries, apart from through the EU mechanism. For example, if we sought to enforce a matrimonial agreement between Ireland and the United States to recognise a typical pattern for Irish people, we would do so through the European Union. The regulation is a tidying up measure recognising pre-existing agreements, typically for accession states from the former Soviet bloc. Such countries may have had agreements with Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan and so on and such agreements will be afforded temporary recognition until the European Union incorporates them.

In regard to Third World countries, the regulation will not have much of an impact for Ireland.

There is no impact on any operation outside the European Union. The regulation only applies to the Union; specifically, countries with arrangements predating EU membership. The regulation is confined to new member states, as other member states are already party to an agreement on the enforcement of matrimonial orders issued here.

I have listened with interest to what the Minister of State said. I interpret it as follows: we are being asked to ratify an instrument that allows individual EU member states to have bilateral agreements with third countries. In the past we agreed to the mutual recognition of decisions and enforcement of judgments on many legal issues. Should the European Union not already have dealt with this issue? Why is there a delay in the Union dealing with it on a singular basis, rather than on a bilateral basis? Would it not be better to take a multilateral decision which we would ratify, rather than have this bilateral agreement? Bilateralism has affected the focus of the Union during the years and we should be wary of it.

Again, we already have agreements with other EU member states on enforcement.

That is the point I made.

There is no internal EU issue relating to this; it is a matter of countries having arrangements on enforcement issues relating to matrimonial matters. These pre-existing agreements automatically came within the competence of the European Union on the accession of these countries. The European Union is affording a temporary derogation to legitimise the agreements, pending the introduction of a wider agreement on matrimonial issues. There is a temporary bilateral restoration of pre-existing arrangements pending the introduction of full multilateral agreements within the competence of the European Union.

I fully agree but I do not understand why this is being done on a temporary basis; why not do it on a permanent basis? The new member states have joined the European Union. Therefore, why is a two-step approach necessary? We are ratifying a temporary measure and the Minister of State says the Union will deal with the matter later. What is the reason for the lacuna and the delay? Why is the link between the two steps being broken?

It is fair to say these arrangements predate the accession of the countries in question. There have been delays in operating this procedure and one would have thought the matter would have been dealt with as an accession issue, but it was not. The EU partnership with the countries concerned on accession did not delve into the details of pre-existing arrangements, but they are now being brought within the competence of the European Union. In a technical sense, these bilateral agreements have no basis in EU law; therefore, the latter is superior. Because there may not be an EU agreement on these matters they would be negated if they were not legitimised in this way, pending full integration with the corpus of EU law.

In essence, therefore, this is a case of completing unfinished business.

Yes. It should have been done before now but it is a complex matter.

This point falls outside the scope of the discussion but many of my constituents have a difficulty with EU member states enforcing matrimonial and family law judgments. This is an issue that is raised constantly. The Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform works hard on it, but it depends on its colleagues on the Continent. To an extent, this is an issue in the same area as the matters being discussed.

It is interesting that one of the proposals is subject to unanimity and relates to one of our precious rights of veto, about which we have heard so much in referenda. While this proposal is subject to unanimity, it is interesting to note that it is clearly not of major strategic importance to the State. Will the Minister of State comment on this?

Owing to the religious, ethnic and cultural diversity of the European continent, family law matters of this kind are deemed sensitive and of extraordinary domestic importance. Referenda in Ireland on EU matters may expose unfounded fears relating to the erosion of family values and so on. For this reason it is considered appropriate to proceed by way of unanimity in some aspects of family law. This is an alternative to allowing a member state, with its own unique affiliations, be they pro or anti-family, to be isolated.

As a lawyer, Deputy Byrne will be aware that there is a vast difference between the definition of what constitutes a family in a Nordic country and what constitutes a family in a southern European country. Ireland appears to be placed conveniently between the Scandinavian and Mediterranean propositions. The unanimity requirement is in place to reflect this complexity of view, opinion and moral belief on family structures.

The proposal, even though it is subject to unanimity, is not of major consequence for the State. The Minister of State appears to believe it is better to be involved in this process and exercising influence.

There is no significant threat from either side and the issue is not the subject of major debate or controversy.

In accordance with Dáil Standing Order 87 and Seanad Standing Order 72, the joint committee will report back to Dáil Éireann and Seanad Éireann to the effect that it has completed its consideration of the motion. Under Dáil Standing Order 86(2) and Seanad Standing Order 74(2), the message is deemed to be the report of the committee. Is it agreed that there should be no further debate on the matter by Dáil Éireann and Seanad Éireann? Agreed.

Top
Share