Joint Committee on Key Issues affecting the Traveller Community (2023) debate -
Thursday, 21 Sep 2023

Accommodation for Travellers: Discussion

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Chair is due in a few minutes. We will start the meeting and the minute she comes in, I will vacate the Chair. I welcome everybody to the committee. We have received apologies from Deputy Mitchell and Senator Martin.

I have to read out a note on privilege, though it could probably be put to music at this stage. I remind members that they must be physically present within Leinster House in order to take part in public meetings. I will not allow a member to take part in this meeting if he or she is not in Leinster House. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside Leinster House will be asked to leave the meeting.

The evidence of witnesses physically present in Leinster House is protected by absolute privilege. Witnesses should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make, her or it identifiable. Witnesses must not engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of a person or entity. That is the short version. The witnesses know that if they are asked by the Chair to stop they have to stop, and all the rest.

The draft minutes of the meeting held on 29 June 2023 were circulated and already approved in private session. Are the minutes agreed? Agreed.

The subject of this meeting is accommodation for Travellers. Accommodation is a very important issue for members of the Traveller community. It is so important and urgent that we decided to meet representatives of the Department and local authorities at the earliest possible opportunity. The report of the previous committee included a full chapter as well as 17 recommendations specifically on the subject of accommodation for Travellers. The committee looks forward to discussing which of these recommendations have been implemented and how we can ensure all members of the Traveller community can access accommodation that is aligned with the community's needs and takes account of Traveller culture and traditions. It is especially interested in the caravan loan scheme. The committee would like to review the policies for accommodation for Travellers as well as the implementation of same, including the legal framework and the funding provided. It would also like to hear of any legal, financial or other difficulties faced by the Department or local authorities when attempting to provide accommodation for Travellers.

I welcome our witnesses. I should say that I welcome them back as they appeared before the previous committee and the ad hoc monitoring group on key issues for Travellers. From the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage we have Ms Caroline Timmons, assistant secretary at the housing affordability, inclusion and homelessness division, Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan, principal officer at the social inclusion unit with responsibility for Traveller accommodation, and Ms Karen Murphy, assistant principal for Traveller accommodation in the social inclusion unit. From the County and City Management Association, CCMA, I welcome Ms AnnMarie Farrelly, chief executive of Fingal County Council, and Ms Sinéad Carr, director of housing at Tipperary County Council. I suggest we invite our witnesses to speak for about five minutes and then allow members to ask questions or make comments for another five minutes. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I invite Ms Timmons to make her opening statement on behalf of the Department.

Ms Caroline Timmons

I thank the committee for the invitation to represent the Department on accommodation issues for Travellers and for providing us with the opportunity to brief members on this important area. I am an assistant secretary in the Department, with responsibility for housing affordability, inclusion and homelessness. Addressing Traveller accommodation issues is a priority for the Minister and the Department and we appreciate the focus of this committee on this important issue.

The Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage’s policy in respect of accommodation for Travellers is underpinned by dedicated legislation. The Housing (Traveller Accommodation) Act 1998 provides that housing authorities have a statutory responsibility for the assessment of the accommodation needs of Travellers and the preparation, adoption and implementation of multi-annual Traveller accommodation programmes in their areas. Accordingly, each local authority sets targets for the provision of Traveller accommodation, which it outlines in its Traveller accommodation programmes. These programmes provide a roadmap for local authority investment priorities over the plan period and form the basis for the allocation of funding from the Department for Traveller accommodation. The statutory framework provides that the Department must ensure there are adequate structures and supports in place to assist local authorities in providing such accommodation, including a national framework of policy, legislation and funding.

The final report of the Joint Committee on Key Issues Affecting the Traveller Community was very much welcomed. As previously communicated to the committee, the Department reviewed the recommendations, in particular, having regard to the Traveller accommodation expert review report, for which there is already a process under way through the independently chaired programme board established to drive implementation of the recommendations. The Minister established the programme board in 2020 to oversee implementation of recommendations from the report. The programme board includes two Traveller representatives, two CCMA representatives and two representatives from the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and is chaired by newly appointed chair of the National Traveller Accommodation Consultative Committee, NTACC, Mr. Niall Crowley. I acknowledge the Trojan work of the outgoing independent chair, Professor Eoin O’Sullivan of Trinity College Dublin, during his time as chair and commend the very positive working relationships established during that time. I welcome also the recent appointment of Mr. Crowley to the NTACC and very much look forward to the renewed energy he intends to bring to the role.

The most recent progress report of the programme board, from April 2023, has been shared with members of the committee. The programme board has adopted an ongoing work programme to consider and implement the recommendations, a number of which relate to the design, management and maintenance of Traveller-specific accommodation. As part of the work of the programme board, the social housing assessment regulations have been amended and now include a Traveller identifier, effective from March last year. This will allow for a more evidenced-based approach to the provision of Traveller accommodation.

I am pleased to say that capital funding for Traveller-specific accommodation, primarily for the refurbishment and provision of halting sites and group housing schemes, was fully drawn down by local authorities in the past three years. This amounted to €14.5 million in 2020, €15.5 million in 2021 and €21.1 million in 2022. This is significant multi-annual investment of over €50 million, delivering high-quality Traveller-specific accommodation. Increased capital of €20 million, together with current funding of €6.7 million, is being made available to local authorities in 2023. It is important to note also that accommodation for Traveller households is provided across a range of housing options. The majority of Travellers - some 79% - live in standard housing, including local authority and approved housing body, AHB, housing and housing assistance payment, HAP, or rental accommodation scheme, RAS, supported tenancies in the private rented sector. Funding for these housing supports is provided through the respective budget lines. The Traveller accommodation unit’s budget is provided solely for Traveller-specific accommodation, such as halting sites and group housing schemes. Accordingly, funding available for and spent on the provision of accommodation solutions for Travellers is much broader than the often reported spend under the Traveller-specific accommodation budget.

I note also that the preferential caravan loan scheme for Traveller families was rolled out as a nationwide pilot across all local authorities in 2022. This is making an immediate and significant improvement to living conditions for families on sites. A total of 77 loan applications worth €2.66 million were approved in 2022. A review of this pilot has been completed and a further scheme approved for €3.2 million in loans for up to 80 caravans to early 2024. We recognise the importance of this scheme in providing Travellers access to mobiles at a significantly discounted rate.

Next year, local authorities will prepare and adopt new Traveller accommodation programmes. Local authorities manage the allocation of all Traveller accommodation under these very important programmes, which are five-year rolling accommodation programmes to meet the existing and projected accommodation needs of Travellers in their areas. The next programmes will run from 2024 to 2029 and the Department will support them through policy and funding.

Traveller families in emergency accommodation is recognised as a significant challenge. Together with local authorities, which have statutory responsibility for the provision of homeless accommodation and tackling homelessness, the Department continues to work to address this challenge and the broader challenge of homelessness. I note that the Minister recently appointed a representative from the Traveller community to the National Homelessness Accommodation Committee. Homelessness among the Traveller community is being discussed at that forum. We must strive to continue the good progress being made in this area because the provision of Traveller-specific accommodation is central to ensuring that we improve the lives of Travellers, who I recognise face many complex challenges being raised and addressed by this committee. Current progress demonstrates the drive and commitment the Department, in conjunction with local authorities, continues to foster. This work relates to the provision of both social housing and Traveller-specific accommodation.

The Housing for All plan specifically recognises the importance of addressing Traveller accommodation needs as a priority. My Department remains committed to working with local authorities to improve the quantity and quality of Traveller-specific accommodation. We are happy to answer any questions the committee members may have.

An Cathaoirleach

I now call on Ms Farrelly, chief executive of Fingal County Council, to make her opening statement on behalf of the County and City Management Association, CCMA.

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

I am a member of the CCMA's committee on housing, building and land use, and I am also chief executive of Fingal County Council. I was recently appointed to the National Traveller Accommodation Consultative Committee, NTACC. I am accompanied here today by my colleague Ms Sinead Carr, director of services in Tipperary County Council.

On behalf of the CCMA, we welcome the opportunity to attend the meeting of the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Key Issues Affecting the Traveller Community. The CCMA welcomes the review of recommendations in the final report of the previous committee and recognises that Traveller accommodation is a priority that needs to be addressed. The CCMA is represented on a number of relevant groups, namely the Traveller expert review group programme board, the design and development of Traveller-specific accommodation advisory group, the national Traveller and Roma inclusion strategy steering group and the NTACC. The CCMA is committed to ensuring the recommendations in the report produced by the Traveller expert review group programme board are prioritised and, through the board, delivered.

Local authorities are governed by the Housing (Traveller Accommodation) Act 1998 and have general responsibility for the provision of housing for adults who cannot afford to provide it for themselves, including the provision of Traveller accommodation at local level. The CCMA fully supports the implementation of Traveller accommodation programmes, which are prepared, adopted and implemented by local authorities.

Local authorities, as housing authorities, provide a range of homes and supports to those with a housing need, including Traveller-specific accommodation. Local authorities work in partnership with approved housing bodies, the charity sector and other stakeholders to assist Traveller families to ensure their accommodation needs are met via standard social housing, group housing and halting sites, or indeed accommodation provided through subsidisation via the housing assistance payment, HAP, or the rental accommodation scheme.

Our housing teams include dedicated staff members who support members of the Traveller community – for example, social workers and Traveller liaison officers. Thirty-nine social workers and 18 Traveller liaison officer posts are funded through the Department. In addition, many local authorities provide pre-tenancy training to families who have received a placement, with subsequent tenancy sustainment supports such as a community sustainment officer or Traveller liaison officer to support the transition into the new home and the provision of other well-being supports.

Local authority Traveller accommodation programmes provide for the development of new Traveller-specific accommodation and the management and maintenance of existing accommodation, as well as dealing with vacancy and dereliction with the aim of maximising use of existing resources.

Local authorities managed expenditure of almost €27 million for Traveller-specific accommodation in 2022. That expenditure was funded by the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. The works related to €20.6 million in capital investment and €6.3 million for upgrades to existing sites.

The experience of local authorities is that most applicants for social housing from the Travelling community apply for standard social housing and do not request Traveller-appropriate accommodation. However, local authorities proactively engage with local Traveller communities and their representatives to understand the accommodation preferences and to plan Traveller-specific accommodation for their areas. Offers of social housing support will include all available options and, where possible, the preferred type of accommodation. There can be difficulties concerning the level of vacancy in existing accommodation and in reaching agreement for re-lets, which can cause delays in meeting accommodation needs. Accommodation in urban settings – often the preferred location of applicants – is generally unsuitable for the keeping of animals. Tenancy sustainment supports are provided for new tenancies, and this is helpful. Local authorities also strongly support the recommendation to expand the caretaker role for Traveller-specific accommodation. This would help improve estate management and lead to an enhanced regime for the management and maintenance of sites.

Access to the private rental market is difficult for all at present. The number of available rental properties has reduced and rents have increased. There is an under-supply of properties for larger family sizes, which has a more acute impact on the Traveller community. There is also some evidence of failed tenancies leading to homelessness. Local authorities use all measures available to assist households seeking private rented accommodation, including the provision of homeless HAP Place Finder support and the use of the differential rent hardship clause, where appropriate. More recently, the tenant in situ scheme has been used successfully to prevent homelessness. Taskforces have been established in some regions between local authorities and Departments to address Traveller homelessness.

Local authority staff work hard to maintain supports to all sites, and it is essential that on-site estate management be delivered without challenge. This is not always possible, and staff welfare and safety has been compromised at times. It is also the case that contractors have had to withdraw from sites, which has caused a significant delay to planned works. This is not sustainable, and it is to the detriment of vulnerable residents when sites cannot be adequately maintained because of these issues. Resources are wasted resolving these issues. Those resources would be better used for improved estate management.

The CCMA welcomes audits of mobile homes or caravans in all Traveller-specific accommodation and halting sites. This is an area of considerable focus for local authorities and was particularly successful during the Covid pandemic.

Annual fire safety inspections are carried out on sites, and ad hoc referrals to the fire service take place if issues arise. Local authorities issue quarterly updates to the local Traveller accommodation consultative committees and report annually to the NTACC.

The CCMA welcomes the national caravan loans scheme, which has been in place since 2021. The scheme aims to provide loans to the Travelling community to purchase mobile homes as their primary place of residence. The scheme has been successful in some areas. For example, 17 loans were drawn down in South Dublin County Council to the total value of €580,000. There has been a positive response from applicants regarding the application process. Other benefits are the immediate approval and draw-down of funding from the Department and applicants sourcing their own mobile homes.

We have highlighted that the maximum limit of €40,000 is not enough to cover the purchase of a caravan for larger families, including the installation costs that are likely to occur. Fire-safety works and civil works can cost up to €10,000 per caravan. The CCMA would welcome a review of the funding and the possibility of a budget, provided by the Traveller accommodation unit, to carry out necessary repairs to caravans.

Consideration is required regarding operation and maintenance for the establishment of a national network of transient sites, and this may necessitate the introduction of a national body to manage sites. Feedback given to the four Dublin local authorities from the local Traveller population is that there is no appetite for transient sites in the Dublin area. The CCMA's priority is to provide suitable permanent accommodation in the first instance.

The welfare and well-being of the Traveller community is a high priority for local authorities. I shall set out examples of local authority initiatives supporting the needs of travellers. Tipperary County Council, in conjunction with agencies, NGOs and members of the community, commenced a process to support a Traveller educational initiative over a sustained five-year period as a pilot in a specific educational catchment area. The decision to lead on this project is based on the premise that the provision of Traveller accommodation on its own does not sufficiently address the significant number of challenges faced by the community and their subsequent impacts on accessing and managing accommodation. A five-year action plan, focusing on preschool, primary school and post-primary school, has been developed and signed off.

A number of initiatives are under way, including the provision of a designated space to provide educational and homework support for primary and secondary school children.

Galway City Council, through a collaborative multi-agency approach, working with the Galway Traveller Movement, the local Traveller accommodation consultative committee and subgroups to address issues on Traveller welfare and well-being, has carried out the following actions: an assessment of equality and human rights issues faced by Travellers relevant for the mid-term review of the Galway City Council Traveller accommodation programme; implementing recommendation actions to the council from the 2021 Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission equality review; refurbishment of the existing Circular Road halting site; making Traveller sites more child friendly; and ensuring two playgrounds have been installed or are in the process of being installed.

In Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown, an initiative funded by the dormant accounts fund is being run. There are focus groups on the following themes: tracking the experience of the Traveller community in accessing private rented accommodation; establishing processes for Traveller tenant participation in estate management; analysing the root causes of high maintenance costs in Traveller-specific accommodation; the installation of a safe play area for children on one site, with another ongoing; a pilot project to allow tenants keys to barriers on halting sites; a tidy site award and the creation of attractive entrances to sites; and a focus group on Traveller women’s health and well-being.

The CCMA will continue to work closely with the Traveller expert review group programme board to prioritise implementation of the recommendations. In addition, the housing, building and land use committee of the CCMA will continue to focus on key issues affecting the Traveller community and ensure good practice is implemented across local authority areas. Local authorities managed expenditure of almost €27 million for Traveller-specific accommodation in 2022. While it is acknowledged that there are notable challenges in the delivery of accommodation, local authorities continue to work in partnership with stakeholders to assist Traveller families to ensure accommodation needs are met. The CCMA supports a definition of culturally appropriate accommodation to provide clarity for all stakeholders involved. We strongly support the recommendation to expand the caretaker role for Traveller-specific accommodation. We welcome the continued collaboration with the Department and continue to engage with the many stakeholders in the Traveller accommodation area.

Senator Eileen Flynn took the Chair.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank everyone who presented this morning. The committee is about trying to get action that will better the lives of the Traveller community. I apologise for being late. I am learning to drive and took every wrong turn possible in the city. I will now open the discussion to members.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

I will have to leave the meeting early because I have to go to Árainn Mhór in County Donegal. It is an unpredictable drive, to put it mildly. I thank the witnesses for their presentations, which are useful. The Housing (Traveller Accommodation) Act provides that housing authorities have a statutory responsibility for the assessment of the accommodation need of Travellers and the preparation, adoption and implementation of multi-annual Traveller accommodation programmes in their areas. From listening to what has been said thus far, we are not short of committees or plans, including adopted plans, but we have a problem with implementation. Has there been an assessment of the number of Traveller families on halting sites who are seeking alternative accommodation, including Traveller-specific accommodation? These are families growing up and seeking to have their own accommodation as adults with partners and so on. Is there a figure in that regard? It is the measure at which we need to get.

My next question relates to the caravan loan scheme. The Department decides a number but is that number decided on an objective need basis or a budgetary basis? In other words, is it because the Department only has a certain amount of money? If the latter is the case, we, as the Oireachtas, have a role. I would certainly press within my party that whatever money is needed to give decent accommodation to everybody is given to them. We rightly highlight when migrants are in poor accommodation. Equally, we should ensure that all the people who have been here have good accommodation. Ms Timmons stated that 77 loan applications, worth €2.66 million, were approved. How many of those were drawn down? How many were paid out?

I was in correspondence with the Ombudsman. According to what I was told in respect of Galway, the amount of money for a caravan is €40,000. I was wondering if this was a Department regulation or whatever. From what the CCMA has said, that figure appears to be what is laid down to the local authorities. That amount would not buy a new mobile home and it would not put it on site. Has the Department done costing of the real cost of getting a mobile home and putting it on site? These are not the little caravans one might pull with a vehicle. Rather, they are permanent dwellings. Has the Department costed the real cost of a mobile home, including its installation on a site, and doing that at public service cost? I presume these are local authority sites.

I was told that in the case of Galway there was one supplier specified. That is the second constriction: the applicants have to go to a particular supplier. Many of them favoured other suppliers where they were getting better quality caravans more suitable to their needs. The third issue, which arises from that, is whether, in the context of this €40,000, any consideration is given to the size of the household to be accommodated. It would be like saying there is a certain amount for building a local authority house but no differentiation is made between the cost of building a one-bedroom, two-bedroom, three-bedroom or four-bedroom property. That differentiation is made in the case of local authority houses. Again this year, a number has been provided, but has there been an audit of the actual need? We need to get to the bottom of this.

In my area, there are many Travellers living on overcrowded sites, particularly in Galway city. The county seems to be ahead of the city. The CCMA outlined what is done in Galway but I will set out what is not done. There is an overcrowded Traveller site, namely, Bishop's Field, and the lease is up on it. To my knowledge, to date, we do not have anywhere to go. There is a second site that was used while the transient site in Galway was being refurbished. The transient site has become a permanent site and the temporary site was used to temporarily house Travellers who were still living on the side of the road. That was meant to last for three years. The planning ran out after three years. The council sought permanent planning. An Bord Pleanála refused it and for the past ten years the families have been living on the site with no sight of alternative accommodation. The local authority does not even have planning permission for the site. Those two examples do not cover that most of these sites are already over-full, as is the other Traveller-specific accommodation. It was stated that most choose but the choosing part is affected by the age cohort, such as the older cohort. If you tell a person there is a settled house in Traveller-specific accommodation available immediately and ask whether he or she wishes to take it, but the person looks around and sees that no new Traveller-specific accommodation has been built to a high standard and in good condition in the past ten years, that is a loaded question. A person who visited my constituency office was probably wise to pick the bird in the hand rather than the bird in the bush.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Deputy. I know that Deputy Stanton has to leave soon, so we might hear from the Deputy and then the witness can answer both at the same time. Would that be okay? Okay.

Deputy David Stanton

I thank the Chair. I have an appointment at 12 p.m. that I have to attend in another part of the city. I thank the witnesses for being here, for the work they are doing, and the presentations that they have made. I will be brief because Deputy Ó Cuív has covered some of the things I wanted to bring up.

In the Traveller accommodation expert review programme board update from last April, it mentions that the approved housing bodies, AHBs have not made use of the funding for halting site provision and that there is engagement with them on that. Could we get an update on what is happening there and why they have not made use of it? It seems to be the case that approved housing bodies would be the perfect route for helping in this issue of Traveller accommodation and the report seems to indicate that there are issues there. I would like to find out more about that. There is also talk about the establishment of a national Traveller accommodation authority. Maybe the Department or Ms Timmons might tell us where that is at the moment and what the thinking is around that?

I was really interested in Ms Farrelly's presentation. There was one particular issue that she mentioned. When I was in the Department of Justice and Equality myself - I was Minister of State with responsibility for this area - I had occasion to visit a number of sites. I think it was in Galway that I came across homework supports being made available and I thought it was extraordinarily effective. From my own experience in education over the past number of years, I have found that where homework clubs and supports are made available to children where they find it difficult to do homework at home, it makes the world of difference. When they go into school the following day they are up to speed with what is happening, and maybe even ahead of the others, instead of wondering what is going on, not having homework done, and not having the support at home to do it in some instances. I am really interested in and supportive of that provision and I would like to find out more about it.

What is the extent of homework supports that we have for Traveller children across the country? How many of them are there and how many children are availing of those supports? As for the teachers and support workers in there, what are their backgrounds? In some instances, they were Travellers themselves who worked as teachers or homework support workers in those areas. What I saw happening was that when children came from school, very often they got some food, they got help with their homework and they had some fun. It made it very attractive for them to go back. I am really interested in this key area, and especially where it occurs near the accommodation centres, where Travellers are living and can go there easily. In one place I visited, the standard was very poor but still and all, the work that was going on there was fantastic. Would it be possible for the committee to get an audit of this work across the country and of future plans, and an outline of where there is a deficit? It is money that is extraordinarily well spent if it is done. It helps to support children to stay in school when they go in and find they are successful in school, rather than the other way around. I want to applaud Ms Farrelly and her team on the work they are doing in this area and I encourage her to continue that and expand it out even more. It is probably one of the most impactful things we can do.

I want to ask this question as well, and maybe it is one for the Department. In category B of the Traveller accommodation expert review programme board update, there are ten recommendations and recommendation B.1 states "In the immediate term, encourage local authority chief executives to use their emergency powers, where necessary, to bypass problems with decision-making by elected members regarding Traveller Accommodation." This is the Part 8 stuff. In many instances, this causes an awful lot of issues, where elected members use their powers to stop Traveller accommodation being provided. This is the nettle we have got to grasp. I want to go deeper into it and ask why our elected members are making that decision. I am not saying it is good or bad or whether it is up or down but there is a reason why they are doing it. We have got to drill down into that and find out what are the societal and cultural issues that are causing elected members to do this, and then causing a report to be issued that says the powers of elected members have to be bypassed by the local authority chief executives.

As recommendation B.2 refers to putting "in place the legislative provisions to suspend the reserved function of elected members for approval of Part 8 proposals", there is a really serious issue here, and I would like to find out what the reason for it is. We have got to name that and call it out, and then deal with it in whatever we can, whether it means changing people's perceptions and attitudes to what is happening and so on. That is very challenging but until we face that head on, we are putting a Band-Aid on all of this and it is going to erupt in another area if we do not do that. There are also recommendations in the previous report about Traveller identifiers. Again, the Department might have some information on that. The Department might comment on transient sites and what work is being done there. I could go on, Chair, as there is so much more here but I was given five minutes earlier to make a presentation and I appreciate that. I thank the Chair, and also the witnesses who came in and their teams for the work they are doing.

Ms Caroline Timmons

I will start with Deputy Stanton's questions, and the AHB question, which I think is the first question the Deputy asked. Why have AHBs not made use of funding? There is only one AHB involved in this particular area and that is probably part of the issue. Most of the big AHBs are very much involved in social housing proper, as well as on the affordable and cost rental sides at this stage. The development of an AHB that has the skills and knowledge to take forward that capital funding piece is probably an area we need to keep working on. It was one of the recommendations and something that we need to keep taking forward. It is something the Department is conscious of as well. If any of my colleagues want to comment on any of this, they will be free to do so but maybe I will give some brief answers on Deputy Stanton's other questions and we can come back to anything he is looking to get more on.

The second question was on the national Traveller accommodation authority. This is a matter that the programme board has on its agenda. As I have mentioned, Mr. Niall Crowley has come in as the new chair of the board, and that is on the agenda for his first meeting in a couple of weeks' time. The date is not set but the first meeting of the NTACC, which he is also chairing, is next Friday week. The follow-up will be the programme board. They are due to discuss that. There have been a number of pieces of work done on that during the previous chair's time, and the programme board will be due to discuss that and will try to take it forward. I know from discussions with Mr. Crowley that he is also keen that we move forward with work on the local Traveller accommodation consultative committees, LTACCs. He really believes that we need to strengthen those structures at the local level. It is another area that is associated with the type of work that we need to and that Mr. Crowley is keen to move on. In the next report, the programme board might give us more of an update as to how it is progressing with that.

I will leave it to Ms Farrelly to address the homework supports. It is obviously an important area. Deputy Stanton then asked about the elected members making those decisions. It is a consistent cultural issue that we need to address over time, and addressing it is possibly beyond one Department. It is a broader issue and probably something that this committee can usefully consider as part of its work. We are very conscious of it. There are certain emergency powers there and there are also new powers that some of the local authorities are using. We have seen examples recently. Ardrew in Kildare is a group housing scheme that is using section 179A of the Planning and Development Act 2000. One can see some developments in that area but bypassing really should not be the issue. It should be the elected members coming forward with agreement. That is where we would like to see that space moving to, so fostering that communication and collaboration would be preferable in our view. That would work better on the ground.

On the Traveller identifier, this maybe connects back to one of Deputy Ó Cuív's questions on what we know about the preferences of people electing to ask for specific types of accommodation. One of the things that was done as part of the recommendations was to put in that Traveller ethnic identifier piece. I will give some of the statistics that have come out of that but I will put a health warning on it. It came in in March 2022. We have only done one summary of social housing assessments since, in November 2022. It is really only a small snapshot, and I would not take it as giving enough data yet to make any decisions on.

I will give some of the statistics that came out of it, just out of interest. Obviously, there would have been over 50,000 on the summary of social housing assessments, SSHA but only 124 Traveller households identified themselves as being Travellers and seeking Traveller accommodation.

Of the 124, 96 said they were seeking mainstream housing - the overwhelming majority - four said they were looking for halting site or caravan bay accommodation, four said they were looking for group housing and 16 had no preference. While this information is interesting, I am not sure it is enough to tell us anything just yet. On the question as to why they were electing to make those preferences, the data do not tell us that. The Deputy rightly identified that we could collect the data – they are useful to have – but that exploring the data and the reasons behind them is another matter. Are the data that way because we are not providing high-quality Traveller-specific accommodation and people believe they will get normal accommodation at social housing rates more quickly or do they genuinely have that preference? Exploring this issue further once we have more data is something we would be interested in doing, but at least we have the data now – that is a major improvement on where we were – and we will keep an eye on them as the trends move forward over the next number of SSHAs.

Regarding an update on transient sites, we are working with the Northern Ireland Housing Executive, NIHE, on this matter. The team meets regularly. Mr. O’Sullivan and Ms Murphy are involved in that work, as is the Housing Agency. With the NIHE, we are jointly funding and trying to advance research in that respect. I believe it is at tender phase. We need to understand the demand for transient sites. We are told that there is no particular demand in Dublin, but where is the demand, how much will it cost, how much will we need to invest and what are its benefits? That research is moving forward and we are delighted with the co-operation we are receiving from the NIHE.

Does the Cathaoirleach want me to allow my colleague to contribute now or shall I proceed to Deputy Ó Cuív’s questions?

An Cathaoirleach

Ms Timmons might address the Deputy’s questions first.

Ms Caroline Timmons

I will address those briefly and then hand over to Ms Farrelly.

I accept Deputy Ó Cuív’s point about not being short of plans but needing more implementation. I will not argue with him on that. The implementation of plans is where we are at now. We have had the Traveller accommodation programmes, TAPs, and the interim review of same and we will have new TAPs next year. They are important for local authorities in understanding the size of the issue they are dealing with. The continued implementation and progressing of TAPs is where we would like to be. Mr. Crowley’s point to me about strengthening the LTACCs is key to driving that forward. A plan is only as good as the people who are trying to make it work.

The Deputy asked about the caravan loan scheme. I will tell the committee a little more about it. The Deputy asked about the 77 loans in 2022, which amounted to €2.66 million. The majority of those were drawn down, so there does not seem to have been an issue.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

When Ms Timmons says the “majority”, does that mean 50, 60 or 70?

Ms Caroline Timmons

I do not know if I have an exact figure, but more than 70 of them were drawn down. I believe the average repayment per week is just over €21. The caravan loan scheme is working. In 2023, we have-----

An Cathaoirleach

The loans were up to €40,000, but were the caravans that were purchased sustainable, of good quality and worth the value of those loans?

Ms Caroline Timmons

I will provide a little more information.

An Cathaoirleach

I am just following up on the Deputy’s question, although I know I should not.

Ms Caroline Timmons

No, that is absolutely fine. I will provide more information if the committee is interested in this matter. Of the 77 loans last year, 75% were for replacing old mobiles and 25% were for additional units. Of the 77 loans, three were reported to be for brand new units and the remaining were for second-hand units. I believe the average cost was €33,000, so they did not all cost €40,000. The average cost of installation was higher than expected at €6,911 across all local authorities. That was to be funded by the local authorities separately to the loan amounts. We reviewed all of that and then asked the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform to see whether we could extend the scheme to this year. This year, there are 80 caravan loans, amounting to €3.2 million. They have been open to local authorities to apply for with the Traveller community since July and have been allocated according to the number of Travellers seeking mobiles and the availability of finance.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

I asked whether the Department had analysed the objective level of demand, that being, an audit of everyone living in substandard mobiles. If so, what was the number? In Galway, the number of loans allocated has not met the requirement. We need hard information. Ms Timmons stated that a good number of the units – I cannot remember the exact figure – were second-hand. We are all hung up on A-rated houses, but the units in question are not rated C, D, E or even F. What age are these second-hand caravans? It is all right to tie up a caravan behind a car and go off in the middle of summer to Ballybunion, Connemara or somewhere to stay there for a week in the caravan, but the situation is a lot different when the frost comes. Why are we not funding new mobiles that would have a longer useable life cycle? Do we have objective knowledge of the demand that we should be meeting, why is it not all being met and why are people not being given sufficient funding? In Galway, they were apparently told that they had to go to the same supplier. Is that correct?

Ms Caroline Timmons

I will deal with the Deputy’s question on standards first. The conditions of the scheme are clearly set out and a winter package is mandatory. In order that the committee can see we have the standards set out, we can provide it with the scheme’s conditions, if that would be useful.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

If a caravan is four years of age and ten years is its lifetime, that would only give someone six years. If a new caravan were bought, though, that would give ten years or whatever it might be. I am only taking the average length of time.

Ms Caroline Timmons

I do not believe we have particular evidence to say that it must be a new caravan in all instances. It is for the local authority to tell us if it is not satisfied with caravans’ standards but as long as it is meeting the standards we have set out, we have accepted that those may be appropriate.

I cannot say that we have decided that they should all be new caravans. It will be for the particular Traveller family making the purchase with the local authority to determine which caravan is appropriate to their needs.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

I am sorry, as I do not want to get into an argument, but the Department has decided, given that it is only providing people with a pot of €40,000. That leads to issues like caravan size versus quality. By setting an arbitrary number of loans that does not meet all demand and by fixing the amount of money, we are not giving people the flexibility to buy caravans that are the best quality and appropriate to the size of their families. I also asked a question relating to family size.

An Cathaoirleach

That money also covers refurbishment and installation of the caravans. Ms Timmons gave a figure of over €6,000.

Ms Caroline Timmons

That is additional to the €40,000 cap. I will comment on the level of finance being provided. Since the first pilot in the previous year, financing has increased from €30,000 to €40,000. As such, a substantial increase has already occurred. The average cost was €33,000. We are well within range in terms of covering what has been asked for. If the evidence from the next review says that that is not sufficient, we will be open to re-examining the matter and asking for more finance. When we seek further finance for the scheme, we first need to have evidence showing that it is required.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

I know.

Ms Caroline Timmons

If we collect that evidence, we will be the first ones to say it.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

I have been around Departments. So has my colleague here. Normally, a Department would say that a good-quality, brand new caravan was the best long-term investment and then find the evidence of what that would cost before any NGO had to come to it with that evidence. The Department would then put that to the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform. If there is a problem with the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, we can ask my good colleague, the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Deputy Darragh O’Brien, and other parliamentary colleagues to take that up. If people tell us that they cannot get money out of the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, we would all have to push that Department and call it in to appear before us. However, it does not appear to me that an objective analysis has been done as to how much it would cost – I presume such an analysis was conducted in respect of new housing – to provide a good-quality and new mobile home or caravan for families of various sizes. Until we can get to those granular details, we are affecting people’s lives.

There are other questions that have not been answered. How did the Department decide on a figure of 80 loans? I ask because, again, there does not seem to have been an objective assessment done on the total number of Travellers living in substandard accommodation. I agree that the public do not care. I have evidence of that because when people went on about the tented village in Ennis for the migrants, I contacted a radio programme about it but it did not seem interested even though the issue was being covered by it big time. I asked, "Do you realise we have a lot of Irish people living in really substandard accommodation year in and year out during the summer and winter but nobody seems to get exercised about it?". My belief is that everybody living in this country, whether they came yesterday or have been here for all their lives, is entitled to good accommodation.

Ms Caroline Timmons

We have sought to meet the demand. If there is a demand for more than 80 loans, we will look at that. Last year, the demand was not for more than 77 and we met the entire demand asked for.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Sorry, I cannot accept that because the Department told Galway it was three applications but they got a lot more than three applications. My understanding is that this year the Department has told Galway that it is four applications.

Ms Caroline Timmons

Yes, Deputy, but Galway is well aware that if it has more than four applications that it wishes to submit to us, we will be happy to consider them.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Was that information stipulated in the circular to the council?

Ms Caroline Timmons

No, but it has been-----

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Perhaps the CCMA officials could answer my question.

Ms Caroline Timmons

Does the Deputy mind if I ask my colleague to talk about Galway's application in particular?

An Cathaoirleach

I know that Deputy Ó Cuív is right because on the ground National Traveller MABS knows. Last year, a huge amount of people contacted me with issues concerning the Traveller caravan loan schemes. Traveller people call these units trailers and not caravans. Having listened to the people on the ground, I know there is demand for good quality trailers and I think everyone on the committee knows that. This committee will meet representatives of National Traveller MABS in the coming weeks. I know that National Traveller MABS has big issues with the Traveller caravan loan scheme. I look forward to hearing the answers to the Deputy's questions.

Ms Karen Murphy

We have sought to significantly improve the terms and reach of the scheme. Prior to 2021 the average loan was €6,800 and I think that was the fund that was available. We pushed that through the 2021 pilot with a budget of €1.5 million and had a cap of €30,000. Initially, through the first scheme, we saw that the €30,000 cap could be increased to reach the standards mentioned by the Deputy, thus ensuring better quality was delivered. We sought to have the budget for the scheme doubled in 2022 to €3 million. We were successful and were able to provide loans for 77 applicants.

Earlier this year we conducted a review and it was based on the findings of both pilot schemes. Members can see, from 2021 to this year, that we have sought to increase the number of families who can benefit and to understand better through the pilot scheme how the scheme can work as effectively as possible.

The circular outlines that each Traveller family can identify three trailers and bring them to the attention of the local authority as part of their application.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Is that from the one supplier?

Ms Karen Murphy

It is three trailers that they can bring.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

No, the three trailers might be from the one supplier. I was told that people were told that one supplier had won the contract.

Ms Karen Murphy

One particular local authority had a procurement approach. Again, these are all learnings in terms of how the scheme works on the ground but that certainly would not have been the case in all local authorities. In other local authorities it would have been the individual applicants themselves identifying them.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Did the Department change the rule this year to make sure that local authorities could not do that? What about the one local authority that did?

Ms Karen Murphy

The circular stipulates that the Traveller family can identify-----

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Is that irrespective of the supplier?

Ms Karen Murphy

Obviously the local authority must ensure that trailers are good quality and meet standards.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Yes, I am all for that and for having a reputable supplier.

Ms Karen Murphy

Yes. I have outlined the kinds of learnings that are coming through from the pilot schemes. Certainly, from the Department's perspective, our focus is on ensuring we are increasing the scheme so that it makes as much of a difference as possible throughout all the halting sites.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

I apologise for hogging the meeting but I have spent two years working on this issue. Given that a finite number of people live in trailers on halting sites in this country, I cannot for the life of me understand, with all the money swinging around this country and I am careful with money, why we cannot find out how many trailers are substandard and replace the whole lot of them. We must provide whatever money it takes because trailers are not expensive when compared with houses. We must ensure that every Traveller who lives in a trailer has a good trailer of a high standard and we can be done with this issue.

As I said earlier, accommodation has to be equal for all in this country. What I read between the lines is that the Department's approach is the usual one of what can be got from the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform and how much can we push them. I suggest that we discuss this issue in private. If that is the problem, we should collectively raise this issue with the Government and the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform. Basically, what really constrains the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, and the officials cannot say it here, is that they feel they would not get the budget from the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, which can be irrational at times.

Ms Caroline Timmons

I did not say that at all but the Deputy is saying that to us.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

No, I am saying that is the only logic for working out what I have said. The only logical way of doing it is to work out how many families need an upgraded trailer and provide the trailers now, thus negating the need for a significant caravan loan scheme next year. Just do it now.

Ms Caroline Timmons

We will take that point away and consider the points for each year.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

It is not a big ask because it is a one off. When Covid came, the Department found the money to deal with all sorts of issues.

Second, I want enough money to be provided per trailer, while taking family circumstances into account, to give a really good quality trailer. I would prefer if trailers were new because they would last longer and the Department would not have to replace them so often.

Ms Caroline Timmons

I understand the sentiments expressed by the Deputy.

An Cathaoirleach

Even though the two Deputies who spoke have left, do any of our guests wish to respond?

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

I have identified in our papers that the caravan loan scheme is not always adequate, particularly for large families, but it has met a need. The changes to the scheme are very welcome and have greatly benefited the families who got loans.

The scheme does not cover the more modular-type units and I know that has been asked for by individual families. Typically, to the best of my knowledge, these units cost between €120,000 and €130,000. Where looking at that type of upgrade on a halting site, it is best to rely on the upgrade capital investment programme operated by local authorities. I know Deputy Ó Cuív will probably say that is too slow, and it can be slow, but you simply cannot install what is effectively a house without the overall halting site being upgraded.

I think we are talking about two different things. The caravan loan scheme does perform a purpose. It has enjoyed good success and there has been demand but it does not meet every need. An alternative modular unit is not the same and could not be met through using the caravan loan scheme. There is a need for better accommodation on halting sites and, typically, that can be in the form of an independent service unit. That goes hand in hand with the likes of a mobile home or it could be more permanent-type accommodation so modular, trailers or whatever meets the needs of the families on the site. There is a need for everything. The caravan loan scheme is efficient, effective and quickly gets a replacement unit.

We found it worked well in Fingal. The demand is reducing insofar as when it was introduced, there was strong demand initially that has now reduced somewhat this year. Seven families in Fingal have benefited from it. I would like the scheme to stay because it is a solution for many families. Let us work with it. One-to-one communication happens between local authorities and the Department, but it also happens through the programme board and other consultative committees. We found a responsive approach from the Department to any of the problems we identified. The point is that it is more complex and there is more to do.

I will address the planning piece. In Fingal, for example, we have navigated the planning system for new accommodation. I became chief executive in 2019. Since then, I think in 2020, we identified a site, secured planning and used the emergency procurement powers during Covid to deliver a group housing scheme of seven. The Office of the Planning Regulator has published a very useful guide to deal with planning in this area. The approach we take, and again it does not work for everything, is that during the county development plan process, we designate certain sites for Traveller accommodation. That then assists the Part 8 process, when we ultimately try to develop a scheme. That said, as chief executive I am the first to admit that the process of delivering new accommodation is still too slow. Some of that process is eaten up with probably as much as two to three years' consultation in understanding the type, location and approach to the accommodation delivery we agree with the families to be accommodated. Every month lost is a month late in delivering the accommodation. It is welcome that there is a suggestion and recommendation that there be a standardised approach to Traveller-specific accommodation, which we could roll out and maybe replicate across local authority areas.

On the elected members, I will give them credit for the support they often give us in getting through planning and dealing with the fears of local communities, which are often unwarranted and caused by misinformation. Where elected members work with us, it helps us to bridge that gap. We have more work to do, however. I want to make sure everybody understands that is what I am saying. We are trying to learn from good practice and make sure it is spread throughout the country.

During Covid we learned very well that on-site supports are crucial. Local authorities were on site during the pandemic, out of necessity, to protect welfare and health and safety. When we could we brought on site, for example, play equipment, such as footballs, basketballs and that type of thing, sometimes through the work of our sports officers, librarians and community workers, who came up with packages that could be brought on site. We have tried to learn from the experience of that and the benefits it brought to individual families. I will ask Ms Carr to come in on the particular education programme that is being rolled out in County Tipperary. There is no doubt that on-site supports work better and have a better impact. Help with homework and other types of education supports are crucial.

Deputy Ó Cuív asked some questions about Galway city specifically but what he outlined is not unique. I have temporary sites in Fingal that have been occupied for many years. We are on maybe our third or fourth upgrade programme on those sites so they have a sense of permanency. As a society, we need to get better and quicker at dealing with the accommodation issues. That is the benefit of having a programme board and all the stakeholders at the table. We will be stronger together if we can move and get these accommodation plans delivered.

An Cathaoirleach

I know the halting sites at St. Margaret's and Finglas fairly well. There have been issues with the caravans that have been allocated in the halting sites. Some of them already needed a little refurbishing when people were living in them. I know of that. Again, some of the caravans and trailers that are being given to families are not even two or three years old but it is about their quality. My question is nice in that it could be positively answered. What is the solution when it comes to services being provided to halting sites?

Yesterday, I drove to Labre Park. When I looked at it, I said, "Oh my Jesus, it's gone to the dogs". I can talk about that site. I have been to St. Margaret's a few times, which is equally as run down as Labre Park. I got a lump in my throat thinking that things are getting worse for Travellers in halting sites rather than better. That is from me looking at Labre Park yesterday. It is because services are not there for people on the sites, such as bin collections and cleaning up the sites, etc. I have said to many people around this table previously that local authorities even want us as a community to police ourselves in halting sites. What can we do to make people's lives better in halting sites? Not one recommendation of the report, No End in Site, has been implemented. There is safe accommodation for the Traveller community under Clúid housing but, unfortunately, from my perspective in Dublin, I do not know one safe halting site for any child to live in. I absolutely do not know it.

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

I share the Cathaoirleach's concern about certain sites. Both sites she mentioned are in the Dublin city area, but there are sites in Fingal I am not proud of.

Local authorities have to be able to be on sites regularly to understand the problems that are arising. There needs to be good collaboration in making sure waste collection and other services are working well for the sites. As we stated in our paper, the caretaker role is also part of the solution. That is where there is somebody on site helping that estate management piece. The broader services, whether these are education, health or the range of services people need to lead healthy lives, also need to be available to people on sites. There needs to be an agreed protocol for how sites are managed and the responsibilities of tenants versus those of the local authority.

Separately, the overcrowding issue is also problematic. Where there is overcrowding, it is quite difficult to be successful with estate management. The priority for us in Fingal is to keep on the sites. We find that challenging at times. We have had health and safety issues in respect of staff. I pay credit to the staff we have who are very committed, as the Chair said, to vulnerable children and adults being protected. We are available and problems can be reported to us and fixed where they can. More work is to be done; that is as much as I can say.

Ms Carr will come in on education.

Ms Sinéad Carr

I agree with the Chair's concerns in that there are some sites where a lot of work is required. It is not just about accommodation; that is the message that needs to come through. If we are looking at those sites, we need to take a holistic approach. Every agency needs to be engaging actively on site and then stepping up and addressing needs because there are very vulnerable families in some of those sites, who have no hand, act or part in what is going on and it is causing them a lot of distress. We see that is something we need to do. It is not easy, but it can only be dealt with by focusing on the issues and having particular task groups with respect to each one.

The education issue has been raised with us by the Traveller community. We are also aware, in the context of accommodation, that we are dealing with the same families and the same inherent issues. To be fair, most children will go to primary school and will get on, but once they leave primary school, they drop off very significantly. We pulled together all the key stakeholders involved in education, including NGOs, secondary schools, primary schools, preschools and the communities themselves. To be fair, a very safe space was created to say there was no blame here and to ask what issues the individuals are facing as a sector and a community.

We then looked at working out what we could do together to address that. We have an action plan together focused on the Cashel educational catchment area where there is a secondary school, two primary schools and preschools. Members of the community itself, our own staff, and NGO staff are now working with the families. We are working towards getting more children into the preschools and actively targeting those. We have put a homework facility in place that will be commencing in September; we are only just getting off the ground. This was funding through the Dormant Accounts Fund but Tipperary County Council has also agreed to continue to fund it for at least five years to track progress over a period. There is the volunteer centre run by Youth Work Ireland and the NGOs which, hopefully, will be working alongside those from the Traveller community to support the homework of those kids. This is so that when they come in from school they can get their homework done and can go into school the next day.

I also acknowledge the Technological University of the Shannon Thurles Campus, TUS, and Mary Immaculate College in Thurles, that have agreed to work with us and track the progress over the next five years to ensure that when there are children coming in, they are able to get into a secondary school where they have appropriate literacy and numeracy skills relevant to their age group and are not in a position where they struggle. The intention over time is to help them through that process, to focus on that, and to see how it works. I say again that this is being done collaboratively. It is being done with existing resources and in people's own time. This includes my own staff's time which is for accommodation but they are being pulled into this space to manage it. I hope that if we can come through with a profile over five years and demonstrate from an evidence perspective that this will only work through a collaborative process, that then we will start making any changes.

The last thing I will say is that providing accommodation on its own is not solving the problem. There needs to be far more done with some of these particularly marginalised and vulnerable families and groups. That is really the only way we are going to start progressing. I keep saying to people who talk to me that we have 375 Traveller families in the county. Approximately 40 of them are vulnerable and complex but the vast majority of the families get on with their lives. They feed their kids, send them out to school, and do the best they possibly can for them. It is those 40 families we need to be looking at.

An Cathaoirleach

We had the young group from Tipperary in Leinster House last year. Some children have never left their counties. It is great to be able to give kids the opportunity to come in to visit. This specific committee is about accommodation, which is important, but some kids in all the counties are still getting colouring in to do and the reduced timetable. We still have a lot to do in education but it is important to have those homework clubs and gatherings for young Traveller people, especially so that they can see there are opportunities there for Traveller children. Ms Carr is right; we have very vulnerable people within the Traveller community as well who probably have no way at all out of poverty and the conditions in which they are living. We have to be honest and look at how we can deal with that as a society and a community.

Deputy Pat Buckley

Good morning to all the witnesses. I thank them for coming before the committee. Sometimes people come to these committees and think they are on trial but these committees were designed to share information. Sometimes hard questions are asked but it is not a competition. The questions are asked to see how we as a committee can function to assist the witnesses. Their opening statements have been brutally honest and I love that. They are getting off to a great start. Ms Farrelly said straight up that the €40,000 is not enough. There are complex cases and the witnesses were honest about that. They also mentioned the challenges of going into certain sites with health and safety issues with staff and so forth. They have to have that on the record. I was very interested in what was said by all the speakers. We can argue about figures, what is right and what is wrong and what the alternative figure is. You are never going to get that right because all families are different and in my opinion should be approached case by case. It is complex at times and takes a lot of time.

The witnesses mentioned the alternatives. Ms Farrelly said the on-site supports work best. Obviously, the on-site supports work best because a relationship and trust is built up and, therefore, people drop their barriers a bit, are less defensive, and a lot more can be done. Going back to what Ms Farrelly said about even accessing some of these sites and a resistance being there. Is it because of fear, distrust, or is it a lack of education? It is about trying to harmonise things.

The Chair referred to the Ombudsman for Children report, No End in Site, on the Spring Lane halting site in Cork. I like the Ombudsman for Children's report because it is brutally honest and raises issues. Many of these issues seem to stem from the lack of trust and education between Departments. Many years ago, I sat on a Traveller consultative committee within Cork County Council and I found it astonishing that when we actually sat down, they had their own group within that board, and it was about off-site amenities. Aside from their halting site, they had no place for the horses, which are part of their tradition. We were not aware of that. We got to work with them and facilitate it and tried to get a bit of land close to the site. They then started engaging with the local community, showing them how to look after the horses and there was massive community engagement. I thought that was a fabulous model but something broke down at some stage and that part of the board on the committee on the Traveller's side went on strike. They were standing their ground. They were not doing it in a nasty way; they were doing it democratically. It was amazing. I learned so much from it.

I commend all of the witnesses because I love pilot projects. They are experiments and it takes a lot to get them right but at least things are being pumped into it. Both speakers said things are not perfect. They have started with a base figure and moved on. Things are getting more expensive now anyway, so they have to move on again. At least if they all work together on a pilot project, they will eventually get it right. One thing I always say is that we should never be afraid to ask. Many is the time you can be disappointed when you ask but at least ask for it.

I was very interested in the fact the society has changed, generations of thinking has changed. We want to preserve tradition but this has to be weighed against value for money. What if you went into a particular halting site with a particular age group and asked people if they knew there were alternatives to a caravan, very similar to a caravan but which would be way better, last a lot longer and be of a better and high-quality standard? I am talking about modular homes on-site because they are going to be plumbed the same way anyway for water, storage and electricity. Are there alternatives in the long term that councils could be looking at and be supported by the Department. You could spend €100,000 on a mobile home if you wanted to. I had a meeting in a committee room in 2017. It was with an Irish company that was not being supported in Ireland at the time and it could build a two-bedroom modular pod, with a television and the whole lot inside in it, for €42,500. I know it was only a two-bed but it just goes to show. We have probably lost an opportunity to get better quality and a better standard of housing, that is, alternative housing than the standard caravan or mobile home. I am asking if this could be an alternative and if we could educate people and gave them the options. They could be offered "X" or "Y" which is a caravan or mobile home but they could be told about slightly different options available if they were interested in them. I know I went the long way around it but that is just one point.

I always feel the biggest barrier when working with the Traveller community and councils is trust. When you are working with local authorities, and as Ms Farrelly said when you go in on the schooling issue, you are building trust. I agree that a caretaker is a possibility. However, being honest, people who live in those sites have a responsibility to keep the place clean and they should be told that. There has to be give and take. If there is an argument that has to be had, let it come out. That is very important.

There was a report from the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission, IHREC, that contained a few points but I am not going to go into them all. I refer to the exclusion from decision-making. Again it is down to getting people talking. One of the findings of this report was that people felt they were being excluded from the decision-making process during the caravan loan scheme. Maybe they felt they were excluded because nobody spoke to them about it or did not tell them about possible alternatives there.

It comes down to working with people.

There is one thing I found very strange. It is slightly off the accommodation side, but it has to do with it. If there are two or three families living on the same halting site with the same surname applying for fuel allowance, it must be very difficult. It is the same address. There are families living in one site, but only one family is going to get that fuel allowance because the Department will be asking what the story is. There are three families with the same names at the same address. It is something interesting I want to flag. As I said, I am not here to knock things. This committee is about assisting in any way to make improvements.

I have worked with a lot of Travellers. Even in my own town I have worked with a lot of settled Travellers, and they are absolutely amazing. These are the lads who will not even go into a site. They have been there so many years now that it is kind of accepted that plot of land, and that side of the road belongs to the lads below. The place is pristine. They have actually put in extra lights for safety. A new road went in a number of years ago to reach a school. We went down and engaged with them. We spoke with them, and assured them that nothing was going to happen. There might be a slightly different road to get in and out of their place, but that was it. Once we engaged with them there was absolute harmony. In probably 27 years I never saw a Garda car down there. I have never seen anti-social behaviour down there. I have seen nothing, because they have pride in their communities as well. That has to be recognised too.

The amount of work the witnesses have gone through in such a short period has to be noted. It is not easy. I love that we are talking about the various county councils and what they are trying to do. Like with the HSE, they often seem to be protecting their own patches and budgets. However, if they can learn from each other and listen to the two speakers on the education side, it gives me hope, which I think is brilliant. I say to give them the education and give them the alternatives, and certainly try to engage with them like we do. I have never been frightened going into a halting site. I might be frightened when I get in, when a couple of them come around to ask what you are there for. However, you just have to explain that you are there to help or whatever.

This committee could be a massive advantage to the witnesses, even if it is to come back and ask questions. We would say that there is no such thing as a stupid question. The response is the problem. I thank the Chair. I know I went the long way round.

An Cathaoirleach

I will speak to the Deputy's point around energy and people not getting their fuel allowance. To date, more than 300 Travellers have not received their €600. That is the €200, the €400 and the €200 from last year. That is appalling. Some work has been going on with National Traveller MABS. However, it is the meters. The money is coming from local authorities. It is being taken out of people's budgets. That is a story for another day. That is something which needs to be dealt with and the Department is working with MABS. It is again that level of inequality. I know Traveller families who got money from the local authorities for their electricity. Some local authorities manage Traveller electricity as well. You would not see it in the general population. Basically, some of those families have not been awarded the €600 electricity credit. That has nothing to do with people here. For people who were awarded it from local authorities the money came out of their rent or their every week money.

Deputy Pat Buckley

I will make one brief point, so the witnesses are aware of it. I know of Traveller families living in council houses. Do not get me wrong; they are delighted. The place is spotless and pristine. The problem is that some have large young families where there is autism and other issues. There does not seem to be an alternative. I know one family where the child is seven years of age. He is upstairs on the window sill in the bedroom on the second floor. It is not appropriate. When you try to put locks on it for the safety of the child so they will not get out the window, they tell you that it is a health and safety fire violation. I say that to flag that if we are talking about accommodation for Travellers, it should be appropriate for disabilities or anything like that.

Ms Caroline Timmons

I will come back on a couple of points. I assume we are trying to cover everything. I first recognise the collaborative approach of the committee that has been expressed here. As a Department, we appreciate that everyone is looking to work with us going forward. That is obviously how we envisage our relationship with the CCMA, the programme board and the NTACC. I certainly see potential advantages to working together on the issues. I recognise that and it is positive. The issue was raised of how to tackle resistance on site. I will let my colleague, the chief executive from Fingal deal with that.

I will mention Spring Lane and talk a little about that and give an update if that is okay. The Department attends meetings with Cork City Council each month. The issues there were so serious in the first instance, that we understand why the report was done by the Ombudsman. It was positive to see the most recent report of the Ombudsman recognising that a lot of progress has been made in Spring Lane. To highlight that, we have approved €12.68 million in funding for the redevelopment of Spring Lane in Cork. That will be for redevelopment of the halting site with 12 three-bed units in bays, and a new group housing scheme of 15 detached residential units in Ellis's Yard. That is the adjoining land. The contractors are due on the site to carry out site investigation works in September. Recognition that living conditions for the children on site have been improved is welcome. It shows that the local authority and residents are working well together, so maybe we can recognise the significant progress they have been able to make.

We have already allowed drawdown of almost €1 million for work that has been done on site to date. That includes health and safety works, school walkway and welfare units. A further €1.5 million has been sought from us to do more welfare units and civil works in the meantime. That is before we ever get to the redevelopment of the site. The Department is actively working each month with that particular site and progress is being made. I want to recognise that.

An Cathaoirleach

Is this "new" news, if that makes any sense? I did not hear that Spring Lane was being redeveloped until now. I know there was a lot of work going on, so that is brilliant news for the community there. As a committee, we obviously welcome that as well. I have done work with Ann Burke and Thomas over the summer too. Not fit for purpose for any human to live on is the best way I can describe it. That is welcome.

Deputy Pat Buckley

Great news.

Ms Caroline Timmons

I will recognise the other points made about modular homes. In a wider context, the Department has been engaging in the conversation about modular homes over the past while. It has probably come more from the perspective of Ukrainian refugees, and dealing with the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, on some of the issues accommodating refugees. We have seen modular homes as a good new way to look at things. We would have no objection, and would be happy to look at that if that was a demand coming from the community. The cost can be quite high, but if the quality is there that is always something to be considered. The duration and lifetime of the home is also important to us.

Deputy Pat Buckley

The bang for buck.

Ms Caroline Timmons

Exactly, that is it - value for money. We are conscious of the expert review report here. Exclusion from decision making again goes back to the point of strengthening local structures on the ground, and making sure we have representatives on all of our committees, which we do. I also want to mention, as I think I did in the opening statement, that Bridget Kelly has recently joined the homeless committee. They are also on the NTACC. We have some really good advocates for this community sitting on a lot of our committees. We have involvement, both at national and local level in strengthening the type of communication, making sure that communication goes back through their representative organisations back to the families living in the particular areas so they are aware of the improvements we are trying to make, and that there is good communication on all fronts.

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

I will say a couple of things about good estate management and making sure there is attention to what is happening on various sites and locations. It is persistence and responsibility. I think local authorities have proved themselves to be persistent. We are the State agency that is going on sites, and our responsibility and the responsibility of tenants are crucial.

That is what make good places to live; it is no different than anywhere else.

In terms of upgrades and dealing with those sites that need urgent and immediate improvement, if we could speed up the agreement process and if Travellers were in a position to understand what is possible quickly, that would help. For example, modular homes might be a solution. We could agree a template for what we could do with procurement and delivery. That is feasible in 18 months but we find it takes years until we reach the stage where we have agreement on what can be done. I will be honest and probably a bit controversial. I have never found money to be the biggest issue in this regard. We can find the financial resources if we get to the stage where we all work to an agreed plan and get it implemented because there is definitely will on every side. That persistence needs to apply to all State agencies. It is important that everybody understands the conditions, as the Chair mentioned, and that we can all work together. The benefit of this committee is that it will help to arrive at the point where everybody understands the problem and works towards fixing it.

An Cathaoirleach

We as a committee are really focused on getting at least some of the 84 recommendations from the previous committee implemented. The most important issue for us is accommodation because it impacts your health, mental health, well-being and opportunities to go to school, etc. It is unfortunate that a year since the previous committee, nothing has been implemented around our suggestions on accommodation and the stand-alone Traveller agency for the Traveller community. What we have had has not worked for the Traveller community. It is now about moving forward and seeing how we can better the lives of individuals within the community.

One of our guests today spoke about Covid. I saw local authorities spending a lot of money on spray paint at halting sites for the "Stand two metres apart" message. They would only do it in halting sites; I thought it was hilarious. Even last night, the sign was still there about keeping two metres apart. Traveller culture or needs were not met in that case around overcrowding on sites. People were expected to move two or three miles away from their homes. Elderly people especially were affected. For any issues in the future with pandemics, we need to look at how, as a society in general, the Traveller community has been failed. I know nurses and front-line workers had to seek different kinds of accommodation, but the general population were not asked to move out of their homes because of overcrowding. It is really disheartening for us as a committee. I know the people around this table today want to see better opportunities and living conditions for Travellers, which we welcome. What was said today in the responses to questions to each guest will be implemented in our recommendations. They help us going forward and we use this committee as a tool for the Traveller community. As I said, we will hear from the National Traveller Money Advice and Budgeting Service, MABS, at the committee for its side of the story around the Traveller caravan loan scheme.

I have a question, and our guests may want to answer individually. What would they like to see? How can we get actions that better the lives of Travellers in run-down accommodation? I do not know who can answer this question but I will throw it out there. It is around the allocation of the last budget for the Traveller community. Do any of our guests know if that money has been spent and how it has been spent?

Ms Caroline Timmons

I can provide an overview of the budget. Over the past three years, as I said at the start of the meeting, from a State perspective, we have spent more than €50 million in capital expenditure on accommodation. In 2020, the full budget of €14.5 million was spent. In 2021, there was expenditure of €15.5 million, and in 2022, expenditure of €21.1 million, a significant increase. In 2023, €20 million is in the budget again this year. We are looking at it being spent. We have a very significant pipeline in the works over the next few years from local authorities. We have a significant commitment of capital funding. We also have a current budget, which is how we pay for social workers and caretakers on sites, separate from the capital budget. In 2020, that was €5.4 million. In 2021, it was €5.8 million, in 2022, it was €6.3 million, and in 2023, it is €6.7 million. We will seek to increase that insofar as we can next year. It is about looking after and making sure we have all those social workers in place and the caretakers on site. The Cathaoirleach accurately described that it is important they play a key role in making sure there are decent places to live and that rubbish and things like that are controlled. We are conscious of that. We keep increasing the funding every year, which we are seeking to do to meet the needs on sites as we go forward.

The larger question the Cathaoirleach asked is such a big question it is hard to answer. From a Department's perspective, it is about understanding that we are accurately meeting the demand and needs by listening to what they are and ensuring we are getting that message back and understanding each other. We would like, going forward, to have a significant amount of dedicated capital in place for Traveller accommodation and that we really see what those needs are. Local authorities are seeking to do that on the ground through the Traveller accommodation programmes, TAPs, and that communication at local traveller accommodation consultative committee, LTACC, level is happening. The wider social housing budget is contributing massively to Traveller accommodation needs as well. While that might be the budget in this particular unit, there is a huge budget for social accommodation. The vast majority of the Traveller community is accommodated in standard social housing. There is a lot funding going into the area. We are very open to listening to any further requirements that may be put to us.

An Cathaoirleach

It is really about local authorities coming together and implementing actions. In Labre Park yesterday, I was so shocked.

Ms Caroline Timmons

Would the Cathaoirleach like an update on that? I should have come back on that.

An Cathaoirleach

If you have it. I do not want this to be a football between us because that is not what this committee is for. It is just so run-down and vulnerable people are on the site. Some of the top of the site was redeveloped - I get that - but the entrance going into Kylemore Grove and the whole site itself are run down. It is the same or similar in St. Margaret's. In the TAP and local traveller consultative committees, we need to look at how to support county councillors and the local authority to deliver. TAP is the only committee that local authorities - councillors - are not paid to sit on. How do we deal with local authorities? It would be unfair, regarding the halting site I came out of today, to say it is throwing money away because there are little or no services being delivered to the top of the site. The head of the Traveller accommodation is leaving. I wish him all the best in whatever it is he is going on to do. I listen to the changes and I think, if that was only the case for seeing from the outside looking in.

Ms Caroline Timmons

Can I bring my colleague, Mr. O'Sullivan, in? He is very familiar with Labre Park and he will provide a quick update.

Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan

Labre Park was one of the sites we visited recently at the invitation of the city council and the Ballyfermot Traveller movement. One of the things we found to be central there was the point being made by Deputy Buckley about engagement and trust and the trust that is there between the city council staff and the residents. It is wholly important in advancing any development that we have that level of trust in the first instance. The Cathaoirleach is right the phase 1 works were driven due to health reasons. They were very successful and we are funding €1.3 million, albeit retrospectively. We are working with the local authority on filling in the gaps in the information so we can ensure the funding is well accounted for in the context of auditing and all that. As part of phase 2 works, there was upgrading of eight bays and there is a proposal for €3.2 million in investment. Again, we are waiting for further clarification from the council on that. More broadly, there is a larger redevelopment project, as the Cathaoirleach knows, for the entire site and we have given approval there recently for more than €16 million. The council has got that approval now. I am conscious it is a complex and challenging site. Simple approvals still require a lot of background work on the part of the council to advance, but I am very confident the council is invested in it. It is bringing proposals to it, we are working closely with it and we will continue to do so. I agree it needs to be advanced to the degree possible as quickly as possible.

An Cathaoirleach

That is the case not just for one, but for many halting sites around the country. The redevelopment of Spring Lane is really welcome. Do any of the officials have anything to add?

Ms Sinéad Carr

The Cathaoirleach might be sorry she asked how the committee might assist. I will go through three things. I think I raised them before at the previous committee.

I am aware there is working ongoing on what is culturally-appropriate accommodation. That is critical because it is leading to a lot of interpretation from various stakeholders and causing the difficulty the chief executive mentioned about trying to come to an agreement about what is and is not feasible, so that is important. When we are talking about culturally appropriate accommodation, it is also important that if we are looking at the accommodation of horses, fowl or other animals, there needs to be an appreciation of what that means on the ground. We need to ensure, for instance, we conform with the equine legislation that has to be addressed, along with the amenities and the environmental. If that is not practical in an urban environment, that needs to be stated. If it is decided it is practical, wherever it is, then we need to ensure it is properly resourced because local authorities certainly are not currently resourced to be able to manage and assist in the management of those. If they are to occur, it has to be managed in a way that is not going to cause significant ramifications down the line as well. All that needs to be thought through. It is important work, so if the committee looked at that, it would be very helpful.

The other issue, based on challenges we are finding on the ground, is where there are new family formations on halting sites, etc., and where there is reluctance from those new family formations to move off site, how do councils deal with that when there is a constrained site. What are the options and can we look at what is and is not reasonable? Again, there needs to be clarity around that to assist us in trying to address those issues. It is one of the issues causing difficulties with management of the halting sites. That causes difficulty then for the families on the sites.

The other issue I am very strong on is there are a number of families who have significant complex needs and there really do need to be specific supports for them, whether around mental health, addiction or other challenging areas. If we had those supports in the local authority, we would be in a better position to help those families and especially the children. That is my Christmas wish list, if the committee could deliver that.

An Cathaoirleach

On the horses, the Tipperary Rural Traveller Project has a horse association project. We might look at getting some people from it in. It looks at Traveller men taking ownership of the horses, looking after them and paying a little fee of say, €2 or €3 per month to be part of the association. I know from the project that it is working very effectively and is creating opportunities for Traveller men as well. The WHO's studies around animals and mental health show animals help people's mental health and well-being. However, we again see so many laws that stop the Traveller community being the community we are. I mean not being able to bring the horses out on the roads and being able to look after them, etc., and to enjoy them as well. This affects many Traveller men, so I agree that needs to be explored to see how we can do that in other areas. We tried to set up a horse association in Labre Park, and in the past three or four years it went so downhill. I hope we can look at that and the rest of Ms Carr's recommendations as well.

Has anybody anything else to add?

Deputy Pat Buckley

I am very happy. It is nice to come out of a committee happy for a change.

An Cathaoirleach

Yes. I thank the officials for coming. For us as a committee it is about looking for those solutions and seeing how we can implement the recommendations of the previous committee. I have no doubt we will have some of the officials back in front of the committee again. There is a lot to think about and to go back to the different Departments about, such as when we speak to MABS and so on. There will be some clarifications looked for there. I thank the officials for their time and their honesty in trying to make Traveller quality of life better.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.57 a.m. sine die.