Joint Committee on Key Issues affecting the Traveller Community (2023) debate -
Thursday, 14 Dec 2023

Traveller Accommodation: Discussion (Resumed)

An Cathaoirleach

Good morning. I welcome the witnesses to this session of the Joint Committee on Key Issues Affecting the Traveller Community.

I remind members that they must be physically present within Leinster House in order to take part in the committee meeting. I will not allow members to take part in this meeting if they are not on the grounds of Leinster House. The witnesses should be aware of the requirement as regards naming and identifying people, etc.

I propose that we publish the submissions on the committee website. Is that agreed? Agreed. Are the minutes of the previous meeting agreed? Agreed.

I look forward to hearing the latest updates on accommodation from the organisations represented here this morning. I invite Pavee Point Traveller and Roma Centre to make its opening statement.

Mr. Martin Collins

I thank the Chairperson and members for the invitation. As the Chair said, we made a submission which people can read at their leisure. In the few minutes I have, I will go through some of the salient points from the submission. In doing so, I am sure I will reinforce what the Irish Traveller Movement and National Traveller Women's Forum presented to the committee at previous meetings.

It is great to have this opportunity to speak to the committee and present some of the challenges and issues facing Travellers with regard to the provision of culturally appropriate accommodation. I have been involved in the struggle and movement for approximately 40 years. I first got involved in 1985 when the key issue for Travellers was the lack of accommodation provision across the country. Nearly 40 years later, the key issue for the community remains the lack of accommodation provision. This speaks volumes and points to an institutional legal framework and processes and systems that are inherently dysfunctional. Despite the Housing (Traveller Accommodation) Act 1998, which puts a legal obligation on local authorities to implement their Traveller accommodation programmes, TAPs, the system, structures and processes in place are inherently incapable of delivering what is required in terms of the provision of Traveller accommodation.

We see that in the rising number of Traveller families who are becoming homeless. We now have approximately 1,600 Traveller families who are homeless. They are either living on unauthorised sites, doubling up with family members, living on the side of the road or living in bed and breakfast accommodation. That equates to approximately 9,500 individuals. It is important to emphasise that we can become very desensitised when we talk about numbers and statistics. However, behind those numbers and statistics are people - 9,500 men, women and children who lack basic services, such as access to running water, sanitation and refuse collection. This is beyond a humanitarian crisis. It is nothing short of scandalous that we allow this situation to prevail in what is a very rich developed country. Travellers are living in conditions that are akin to those in developing countries. It is a shame on our political classes and leaders that this humanitarian crisis is allowed to continue.

Accommodation is recognised in international law as a lynchpin to exercise other basic human rights, such as access to health, education and employment. In our context, secure accommodation also facilitates nomadism. Travellers who have secure accommodation in the winter months are more inclined to go travelling during the summer. It is important to acknowledge that.

As I said, the system is inherently incapable. Traveller accommodation is too heavily politicised at local authority level. There is also inherent racism in the local authority system whereby politicians will not vote for Traveller accommodation. For this reason, the Traveller organisations have been calling for the establishment of a national independent accommodation agency to have the necessary mandate, legislative framework and resources to get on and do what local authorities have failed to do for the past 40 or 50 years.

It is said that the definition of madness is doing the same thing twice and expecting different results. We have been doing it for 40 years and we know what the results are. We want an agency that will be modelled on what was established in the North of Ireland, namely, the Northern Ireland Housing Executive. It was set up at a particular time and in a particular context where there was inherent sectarianism in the allocation of housing in the North of Ireland whereby Catholics were not given a fair share of housing. We want an independent national agency to be established.

We welcome the trailer loan scheme. Members will note that I used the word "trailer". I insist on using the word "trailer". I despise the word "caravan", and even more so when it comes from the lips of a Traveller. I am on a mission to reclaim the word "trailer". The trailer loan scheme is very important.

We totally support it, but it needs to be improved. There will only be 80 allocations for trailers in 2024. That it totally insufficient. There is significant demand for more trailers to be made available. The budget of €40,000 to purchase a trailer is too low. It is insufficient and should be reconsidered. In addition, we support the call by MABS for a parallel rental scheme for Travellers who do not want to buy a trailer. Two schemes running in parallel are needed.

I will sum up the key points. We are calling for the establishment of a national independent agency, as well as full implementation of the recommendations of the independent expert group review. There needs to be a moratorium on all evictions. We cannot allow evictions to be taking place where Travellers have been failed by the Government and local authorities. We want the introduction of an ethnic identifier across all data sets in order to know precisely what is involved. If there is difficulty in measuring it, there is difficulty in managing it. Finally, there needs to be better alignment between the Traveller accommodation programmes and city and county development plans. If Traveller accommodation is not specified in city and county development plans, local residents have strong legal grounds - such grounds have been used - to block the provision of Traveller accommodation. I will leave it at that.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Collins. I was struck by the point that he has been involved in the movement for 40 years but very little has changed in that time. I thank him for his presentation. I invite our guests from Cena to make their opening statement.

Ms Margaret Casey

I compliment Mr. Collins on the points he made in respect of Traveller accommodation. I had the privilege of working with him for a long time. He is one of the greatest activists in Ireland. Everything he said regarding needs and crises happening to the Traveller community is true. I am here to provide a different perspective, however. I am a director of Cena. It was designed by Travellers. "Cena" is a Gammon word for "Traveller home". Cena is a proven lead housing body. Although it has been in existence for a relatively short time, we want to bring about solutions and change. In that regard, we have designed and built homes for Travellers. We have built the capacity of Travellers to work with each other in the context of the design and implementation of homes and designing what culturally appropriate homes look like. We have worked in 13 counties so far. We have facilitated engagement in terms of Travellers relating to each other, the design of Traveller-specific accommodation that meets their needs and what that means. We have been very successful in supporting Travellers to work with Travellers. We have bought and designed homes for Travellers and we continuously consider what culturally appropriate accommodation means to Travellers. We are coming here with solutions in the context of Traveller-specific accommodation. It is important that Travellers have their own solutions. Cena was set up to bring a solution to the Government and society in the context of what a home actually means to Travellers. As Mr. Collins, who is a very good colleague of mine, no more than the Cathaoirleach, stated, Government policy has failed Travellers so far. I will hand over to Mr. Dillon, who will discuss the implementation of what we have done.

Mr. Brian Dillon

Following on from what Ms Casey has said, there are two or three important points I wish to make regarding why it is a different approach that we are talking about. We have also circulated a statement that addresses where Cena is coming from. Ms Casey referred to Traveller solutions and Traveller-led solutions. We place a significant emphasis on self-determination. That kind of self-determination means we have Travellers working with us who are trained in working with their own people to identify their own solutions. In many cases, the absolute tragedy in terms of Traveller accommodation that Mr. Collins eloquently outlined is the result of settled people believing they know what Travellers need or want or what that identity is. At Cena, we work in the opposite way. Everything we have done has been designed by Travellers. Every tenancy we establish with Travellers is managed by Travellers who are trained in that management. We are very different from any other approved housing body. That is an important point to get across to the committee.

We are dealing with a legacy of failure, neglect and crisis. That goes without saying. More important, it could be as the starting point in addressing the accommodation crisis and what the Traveller community is facing but we in Cena have to see it as a platform. Every day, we deal with the fallout of that failure of accommodation, which has effects on areas that go from mental health to access to opportunities for progression.

Cena is working with young Travellers to bring forward opportunities in construction. It is about Travellers identifying their own needs, building their own solutions, becoming involved and owning those solutions. Much of what Cena does is cross-community. We face discrimination every day of the week in buying properties and building houses. We daily face the problems Mr. Collins identified with regard to people objecting to what we are doing. We will continue to build good practice and show people it is not necessary to segregate in order to recognise difference. We have no barriers or high walls. There is no hiding of a culture. In fact, we are there to promote and demonstrate the value of that culture and to place the destiny of people's accommodation in their own hands. That is what Cena is. I know Ms Casey wishes to make a few points regarding the policy issues we believe are important.

Ms Margaret Casey

I thank Mr. Dillon. As regards the expert review group on Traveller accommodation in 2019, it made a recommendation on sharing the Cena model. We are working with approved housing bodies throughout Ireland. They want to work with us. We want to share our model of good practice in terms of the implementation of Traveller-specific accommodation to meet the needs of the Traveller community. It is important that we do so. Cena is in its infancy and has done so much in a short time. The Department promised it would work with us but, unfortunately, it has not delivered on that commitment. Other approved housing bodies have welcomed working with us because we all want to bring about solutions and change. Very good political parties in government want us to deliver solutions to the problems and crisis to which Mr. Collins and Mr. Dillon referred.

As regards our model of practice, we carried out an assessment of needs of Travellers throughout County Clare. It was done from the perspective of Travellers. We trained Travellers to carry out that assessment of needs. That is a model we would like to see rolled out throughout Ireland to deliver real change, bring solutions forward, deliver appropriate accommodation and meet the needs of the Traveller community.

Along with approved housing bodies throughout Ireland, we are considering the use of modular and sustainable homes, with a lifespan of 70 years or more, to bring solutions to the crisis through which the Traveller community is going.

We are working with a modular homes company that will design specific culturally-appropriate homes to meet the needs of the Traveller community. I always complain about the injustice against Travellers, no more than Martin Collins, the Cathaoirleach and many of the people here, but I very much also want to bring solutions to the table. It is okay to complain but with regard to Government policy, Cena has brought and will continue to bring solutions rather than headaches. We want to save the taxpayer an awful lot of money. We have created an awful lot of change so far in 13 counties. One of the practices we have developed is in County Galway, where we are living on the inside but yet on the outside. This is about Traveller-specific accommodation. We would like the support of the Department as we go forward.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Ms Casey. I am sure that members have many questions for Cena. It is very important that the witnesses are before the committee to be able to speak about the solutions. It is very important that the answers are there. We have spoken about this numerous times. The answer is there and it is about the implementation. It is brilliant that members can see this Traveller agency that has been set up for Traveller accommodation. It is very important.

Ms Denise Collins

I am the national support and development worker for National Traveller MABS. I am joined by Ms Foley, who is our social policy and financial inclusion worker. National Traveller MABS was established in 2005. It is the leading advocate for the financial inclusion of Travellers in Ireland. National Traveller MABS works to reduce poverty, discrimination and the financial exclusion of Travellers in Ireland. We work with the Traveller community and organisations as well as with MABS and the citizen's information service to change policies and practices that impact Travellers financially.

National Traveller MABS is funded by the Citizens Information Board. According to the World Bank's definition of financial inclusion it means that individuals and businesses have access to useful and affordable financial products and services that meet their needs, with transactions, payments, savings, credits and insurance delivered in a responsible and sustainable way. Access to a transaction account is the first step towards financial inclusion as it is the gateway to other financial services.

I have begun with the definition of financial inclusion because Irish Travellers remain one of the most financially excluded groups in Ireland today. Financial exclusion affects every aspect of a person's life, including their accommodation, physical and mental health, education and employment possibilities. Financial exclusion limits access to basic financial services and hinders opportunities for savings and financial stability. It also obstructs access to credit, making it challenging, if not impossible, to address emergencies or pursue education. Overall, it maintains the cycle of limited economic growth and opportunities in which we can clearly see the Traveller community being held.

Access to the bank may be the first step towards financial inclusion but 63% of Travellers still do not have a bank account. This means access to online retail and other services are curtailed. If people do not have a bank account they lose out on the savings given by utility companies for direct debit payments. They cannot access payments spread over a longer period of time. They cannot access loans or other forms of credit. Access to credit is extremely difficult for many families. Without a bank account, access to credit is impossible and leaves people at the mercy of illegal money lenders.

A central issue for families living on halting sites is financing the purchase of a trailer and accessing credit in respect of this can be very difficult and very expensive. While National Traveller MABS welcomes the reintroduction of the trailer loan scheme we have many concerns about how accessible and affordable it is for many families. We have received feedback from individual Travellers, from our colleagues in MABS and from local authorities that the loan still remains inaccessible for many families who are in dire need of it because their budget cannot stretch to affording the repayments. These families continue to live in substandard accommodation, which has knock-on effects on their physical and mental health and every aspect of their daily lives.

Another concern is the purchasing power of the loan amount. We recommend that any trailer purchased must meet the BS3636 standard. This standard is contained in the Department of housing's Circular 46/2016. The loan amount is not sufficient to purchase a trailer of this standard at current retail prices. Research carried out by National Traveller MABS in conjunction with Atlantic Technology University Sligo found the cost of a new residential-standard trailer for a two-person household begins at €60,000. Delivery, installation and disposal costs can be as high as another €5,000. National Traveller MABS is of the opinion that a trailer rental scheme run alongside a trailer loan scheme would be a more appropriate way to ensure families living in poverty can access energy-efficient mobiles suitable for year-round living.

The trailers being provided through the scheme are not residential-standard trailers. This means they are not suitable for year-round living and are putting families further into debt and fuel poverty. Research carried out by National Traveller MABS found that 77% of Travellers living in mobile homes were living in energy poverty in 2019 and were 14 times more likely to go without heating than the general population. This was long before the current energy crisis began. We know this situation has only got worse. While we welcome the supports the Government announced in the energy action plan for 2022 and 2023, the fact is that the majority of Travellers, especially those living in trailers, did not see any of these benefits. This is simply because they are living in trailers. Because of their living situation they are not eligible for the fuel allowance. As they share a bay or live adjacent to a house they are deemed to be the same household even though this is not the case.

The electricity credit benefit scheme also did not benefit many Travellers. National Traveller MABS has been working with Senator Flynn on this issue since the first credit was issued. The Government has promised that all Traveller families who did not get the credits will be reimbursed but we know there are still families who have not received it even though they pay their energy bills the same as everybody else. Many Travellers living on sites do not have individual MPRN numbers. They do not even know who their energy supplier is beyond the local authority. As another round of credits is being issued this month we know there are still Traveller families who cannot afford to heat their homes. They send their children to bed with extra blankets to keep them warm. They use candles rather than electricity. Every day they have to make decisions between heating and food for their families. The situation is not good enough and urgent intervention by the Government is needed. Government intervention is needed across the board to ensure Travellers can be financially included and can begin to be fully included in Irish society.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Ms Collins. With regard to the point on electricity credits I am working with the Minister of State, Deputy Smyth, to make sure every Traveller in the country who is paying for electricity will get access to the credit. As Ms Collins said, it is nowhere in sight and people are still missing out. I will speak with National Traveller MABS after the meeting and we will try to have another meeting with the Minister of State next week to make sure it is happening on the ground. It is pointless to say it when people are not seeing it.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

On that point, in everything we say we have to have two levels of operation. These are the immediate and the longer term and they have to work in parallel. If somebody is going to bed in a freezing caravan tonight there is no point in having a plan that will take three, four or five years. Some things have to be short term and others long term but it is not a case of one or the other as it has to be both.

On the energy credit, I suggest, through the Cathaoirleach, that we also write to the Minister for Social Protection and suggest that in the case under the present law the energy credit cannot be paid to individuals in circumstances that cannot be foreseen, then an equivalent amount would be made available through the supplementary welfare scheme immediately.

Because again, it is a case of live horse and you will get grass and that is no good. We need an immediate solution. The exceptional needs payment is fairly flexible. It could be that the Minister for social welfare were to write to the local office to say that it is a trailer and the household cannot get the electricity credit and that they would be given an equivalent amount of money under SWA. If Mr. Dillon could do that and copy the members of the committee on the email, and if we could agree that later, it might be a short-term resolution to what I understand is a serious problem.

I have done a lot of work on the trailer scheme and I do not understand the Department, to be quite honest. It is petty-minded and mean and if it was happening to any other community, it would not be accepted. We took a case to the Ombudsman on behalf of one individual and, miraculously, they have been granted the loan this year but there are a lot of problems with the scheme. I agree with most of what has been said. If the Traveller community want trailers, that should be accepted as a name change.

The big thing I cannot get my head around is this. I do not care how many trailers are needed; if they are needed they are needed. It should be done by objective need and not an arbitrary number. There should be no rationing; end of story. This should be sorted this year - now. That can be done. The money is there. There is a lot of talk about money being there but in this case, the need is acute and it is small money in terms of the overall budget. That is something I have been adamant about. The second is the standard BS 3636. The money should be enough, and you are 100% correct, to provide that. Providing €40,000 for second-hand caravans is totally unacceptable. I understand the installation money is on top of that but it is just not good enough. It should be an objective standard. In other words, there is an objective need and an objective standard. The committee should agree on that.

The next issue I come across is fixed rent, fixed payment. Whatever has to be paid back – and I agree we should be flexible whether it is a rental or a purchase and it should be the applicants choice - it should be a fixed repayment. I think the lowest is €20 and I believe that should be the highest one as well and that it should be a fixed repayment irrespective of anything and there should be no relationship to the provision cost. It is a question of affordability. The same thing goes for a local authority house.

There is one other problem I am coming up against. It is core to MABS, if I may say so. Many housing tenants come in to me who are in arrears with their council rent, caravan rent or whatever they are renting. This applies to standard housing as well. The first thing I do is look for the rent record to see how it happened. If they have not been paying any rent or have not been paying the rent they were told at the time, then that is one issue. It is an issue for MABS, perhaps. On the other hand, I am often finding that they have been paying the rent agreed but they have not been notifying the local authorities every year that the social welfare has increased, even though everyone knows it has increased. Then after two or three years the council reassesses the rent and tells the tenants that they should have been on a higher rent because they were getting more social welfare. My view is that the obligation should be on the local authorities, if they are going to change the rent, based on welfare, but that is a wider debate. If that is going to happen, they should do it there and then. It is much easier because they know everyone who is on a welfare income will be getting increases, so they should ask for a rent review or automatically adjust the rent and not suddenly apply arrears.

Are people who are on welfare meant to get the lump sum to make up the difference? Psychologically, we all find it easier to pay as we go rather than to come up with lump sums. It becomes a problem with the caravan scheme, and a very acute problem, because suddenly they are told they have to put the rent up. It is not good enough for it to be an arrangement.

There are two things here. The Department of Social Protection, when it has to do a means test on a self-employed person, it does not necessarily adjust it backwards. It takes it from that day forward. Second, if there is an arrangement there and it is being adhered to, that should not exclude someone from the caravan loan or rent scheme. Will Cena give me details on what has happened in Galway?

Ms Margaret Casey

I will indeed.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

I would like to look at it. I expect it is in the county and not the city.

Ms Margaret Casey

It is the city.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

That is even handier.

Mr. Brian Dillon

It is Circular Road.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Is it actually provided?

Mr. Brian Dillon

It is just beginning to build five houses.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Was there a problem with the planning on that one?

Mr. Brian Dillon

No. I know the one to which the Deputy refers but this is a new development.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

How many actual properties have been provided?

Mr. Brian Dillon

We have bought about 13 homes or properties. We have built four where we have tenants. We are beginning these new five homes in Galway now. I think we are at a very particular, important part of our development. We have about 50 homes lined up hopefully for CAS application and approval so it is kind of at a take-off stage.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

I think this is a huge breakthrough. It would be much better if the Traveller community was given the wherewithal and provided with its own accommodation where it was in charge.

Ms Margaret Casey

Yes.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

What I think would be very useful for us would be to know what the barriers are to doing even more and to it becoming more involved. Is it the local authorities or it is bureaucratic barriers? Give us three barriers. Do not give us 2 million. We need to get things done fast because people are waiting and they need urgency. We need the most doable with the biggest pay back in terms of providing good quality accommodation for the Traveller community.

Ms Margaret Casey

In some counties of Ireland, we have local government and local councils objecting to our bringing solutions forward to the crisis that the Traveller community is facing. We work very closely with the Traveller community and it comes up with solutions but then we get backlash from local councils which do not want us to work with our own community.

Mr. Brian Dillon

I would absolutely agree. That is a huge barrier and people will understand that. We made the point in our submission that we are quite convinced that we are doing what we are doing in the right way and one which is sustainable, which is the most important thing as well as it being culturally appropriate and that people own the development. That is critical for us. On barriers, we identified three main points at the end of our paper, I refer to there being no other solution. We can look back at failures of the past. We know this is something we need to try to promote. The barriers are really around expanding the model. Five of the major approved housing bodies are totally committed to taking this model and seconding Travellers into what they are doing. We can expand that and multiply by ten what we are doing very quickly. However, Ms Casey has identified a very important point there. There was a key recommendation in the expert review group on Traveller accommodation 2019 which named Cena and other approved housing bodies and identified that they were not delivering Traveller accommodation and they admitted that and knew that. However, the recommendation was very specific in terms of saying the Cena model needs to be taken to these agencies and needs to be developed. That is a very specific recommendation. For two years, we have had a commitment in principle from the Government for funds to go through on this. We are working with the other approved housing bodies but we still have not had a commitment on the support to actually do that and to resource that.

Ms Margaret Casey

That is a big issue.

Mr. Brian Dillon

The second barrier is that it is fine in principle to be able to talk about Traveller-led initiatives and it sounds good when everyone talks about that, but it is difficult because we cannot be confident about getting the needs right unless we have people who are Travellers trained in dealing with the Traveller community, and we have to invest a serious amount in training. That broader spectrum, which other approved housing bodies do not have, is a barrier because it is not recognised. I do not think we can treat Cena as just another approved housing body.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

How much money does Cena need for the training? Its representatives need not tell us now and could revert to us with a figure.

Ms Margaret Casey

We have had a proposal with the Department for the past two years and a commitment that it will support Cena as an approved housing body and in line with a model of good practice for self-determination. Accommodation up to now has failed Travellers, as have local authorities, and we want to bring about solutions. There is the short-term need Mr. Collins and Ms Collins talked about, but we want to bring about a sustainable solution of Traveller-specific accommodation to meet the needs of the Traveller community for the next 70 years. We need other approved housing bodies to work with us and we will work with them, but we need a sustainable commitment from the Department. It has said since the beginning that it would give us that commitment but, to date, it has not honoured its word-----

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

We want to go in and do quick, keyhole operations, so we need a copy of the application Cena sent. Our job then will be to kick ass and get an answer.

I agree the ultimate solution is a Traveller authority, but Mr. Collins and I both know that even if there were an agreement in principle to go ahead with that tomorrow, it would be two, three or four years before a chief executive and all the rest had been put in place. In the meantime, section 4 applications are a problem because, unlike in the case of most planning, members of the local authority get to vote on them individually. Has anyone looked at the new planning Bill? I acknowledge it runs to 800 pages but I am sure they would quickly enough find which section they were looking for. Even Members of the Oireachtas with experience in law are having problems and challenges with the Bill because it is so big. We need to find out whether there is a specific solution to this in the Bill, and if not, what could be done as a short-term step to take this veto of community lobbying that happens on Traveller developments on the section 4 side out of the system.

In my view, and I hate to say this or to take power away from any elected person, given I am one myself, it is just not working, and when something does not work, there is a time when we have to say it is not working. Certainly, it is not working in a lot of local authorities, and there has to be a short-term fix whereby if it is not working, there is another, quicker way. I know that, technically speaking, the chief executive can overrule the veto, but I have never seen that happen. Perhaps there could be a tweak in the Bill to say that in the event of it not being satisfactory, there would be an obligation on the CEO to review it, and if he or she were of the opinion that it was the wrong decision, there could be some mechanism in that regard. We cannot allow this to become a constant barrier to social housing, and we see that issue is not resolving itself by public opinion. If anything, public opinion is even further dug in.

I would be interested to hear my colleagues' views on this. The planning Bill has to be an opportunity. There is a bit of work involved, but I am talking about a very targeted measure, short of the bigger one, that could be worked on in parallel. If somebody has given us an opportunity, we should avail of it by carrying out a targeted operation on this to get over the problem and give us time to go at the bigger problems.

Mr. Martin Collins

I would not claim to be an expert on the land development Bill. The ITM may have done analysis of it but I am open to correction on that. We do have a legislative framework for the provision of Traveller accommodation, namely, the Housing (Traveller Accommodation) Act 1998, which places a legal obligation on local authorities to carry out an accommodation needs assessment, develop a five-year Traveller accommodation programme and work on its implementation. It is not being respected or complied with by local authorities, however, and that is because at local authority level, as the Deputy alluded to, Traveller accommodation is heavily politicised. There is inherent racism in the system. Some public representatives have said to me over the years that voting for Traveller accommodation would be like a turkey voting for Christmas. Many other public representatives have said to me in confidence they would prefer if Traveller accommodation were taken out of their hands because it is politically too sensitive.

Precedents have been set whereby local authorities have had some powers taken away, such as through the National Roads Authority. It was felt our local authority system or structure did not have the capacity to deal with some of the national infrastructural projects, so we set up the National Roads Authority. That was one power taken away from local authorities. Likewise, it was felt our local authority system was too fragmented and could not deal with our water infrastructure, so we set up Irish Water, or Uisce Éireann, and the Environmental Protection Agency. Precedents have been set up where it was felt-----

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

As well as in respect of landfill.

Mr. Martin Collins

Yes, so it is not fair that people would say what we are suggesting is anti-democratic or is a further diminution of local authorities’ powers. It may be a further diminution of their powers, but if that is what is required and is what the evidence is telling us, we have to move in that direction. I return to the issue of the Northern Ireland Housing Executive, which was developed in the sixties. There was inherent sectarianism in the allocation of housing whereby nationalists and Catholics were being discriminated against, which partly led to the civil rights movement and certainly led to the establishment of an independent agency where there would be equity, equality and fairness in the allocation of housing-----

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

I buy in to the agency issue, but what I am saying is we know that takes time. I will outline the kind of thing I was thinking about in the meantime. Most planning does not go to a vote at councils. The reason Traveller-specific accommodation does is that it is a local authority building on local authority land. As a short-term fix, given the Bill is going to be through by next spring, that could be changed. I am ball-hopping here. In the case of Traveller-specific housing, it could go straight to An Bord Pleanála, for example, and people would have a chance to make their observations, and if necessary an oral hearing could be held, but the board would make the decision or some other version of that, and I am open to hearing what my colleagues have to say. Just because it is done mainly on local authority land, why does it have to go to a vote when no other housing does? No other housing goes to a popular vote unless it is on local authority land.

I would be interested in short-term suggestions that would be in by March. The problem with what Mr. Collins said about plans and so on is that, while the law has been there since 1998, if it were really effective, we would not have the problem we have. It reminds me of the An Bord Pleanála measure that said it was a statutory objective to make decisions in four months, whereas it could take nearer to four years to get a decision at the moment. I am dealing with one case that has taken more than three and a half years. Some laws are not as enforceable as others and this one has failed to be enforced, so we need a much shorter cut and we need to get it done.

Mr. Martin Collins

I fully concur with that. One of the recommendations in the independent expert review report of 2019 was that Part 8 of the planning process would be suspended for a period - I think it was five years - and would then be reviewed and perhaps even reinstated at that stage. That is key for the planning process. We were told by legal experts that that could not be done, that it would be illegal and so on.

Last year there was an amendment to one of the housing Acts, or it may have been the Planning and Development Act, whereby large-scale infrastructure housing projects exceeding 100 units would be exempt from Part 8 planning laws. It was quite easy to introduce it there when the need was quite evident but-----

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

That is the point I am making.

Mr. Martin Collins

-----the Traveller organisations, which have been advocating for that for some time, were told it is not practical and it would be illegal. It has been introduced, though, and we are looking to have it extended to Traveller-specific accommodation.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

I am sure Pavee Point has legal advice. I am suggesting that it look at the law and suggest in the existing Bill an amendment that could deal with that issue quickly or, better still, a short amendment that fits into the Bill. I believe that is doable. Remember, what is illegal becomes legal tomorrow if we make the law, as long as it is constitutional. It is legal once we make it legal. We just need a targeted approach just for the short term so that things have to happen. I am fed up now, and Mr. Collins is aware that it is anathema to me that we have so much planning and so many strategies but they are not sorting out problems for the people I represent. They are not sorting out the issue of decent accommodation. If that is not getting done, it is more blather and less action.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Deputy. Is it agreed that the committee will write a letter to the Department of Social Protection? Agreed.

This is very interesting. The committee has spoken about the short-term solutions that end up being bigger down the line. Our aim is so ambitious and we should be ambitious but sometimes we are not ambitious enough. As a committee, we are looking for doable wins that we can do now. Deputy Ó Cuív is 100% right that we should look at the short term and then extend it.

Deputy Joan Collins

I agree with everything Deputy Ó Cuív has said. We have to look at how we can make a difference very quickly and then build on that to get the longer term issues dealt with. I agree that, in conjunction with Pavee Point and other organisations, we must look at what provisions we can insert in the planning and development legislation to reflect the needs of the community.

I am delighted to meet the representatives from Cena today. I have read about them, what they do and their role. It sounds really good and the results to date have been good. If we have Traveller-specific accommodation within developments, would that result in the Traveller community being ostracised? Is Traveller-specific housing much different from the other housing that would be built in a large-scale development? I would like to get some feedback on that because it is an issue that those who do not want any development for Travellers could use against positive regulations we would seek to bring in.

It struck me that 63% of Travellers do not have a bank account. That is an absolutely dire situation for the Traveller community. Has MABS spoken to the credit unions about taking on members of the Traveller community? I am in the credit union in An Post, where I used to work, and it is a very good way for people to save a little bit and then build on that to get loans from the credit union. Credit unions have a much better attitude towards dealing with people individually than the banks would have.

Deputy Ó Cuív spoke about rent, and even loans, being based on income, as would be the case with local authority housing, rather than having a fixed rent. I fully agree. That could be a way to get more members of the Traveller community involved in banking through a credit union. Maybe MABS has done that already. Even if one, two or three credit unions around the country did this, it could make a difference for the community.

Mr. Collins referred to the development legislation. It will be another three or four years before work starts on the next development plan. Is there some way we can include in that development plan an alignment of Traveller-specific housing? This is very important because if we that in the development plan, it would copperfasten or extend Part 8 to include a percentage of Traveller-specific accommodation. Do the witnesses agree with that? What are their views on it? There are 1,600 Traveller families homeless. What percentage of the Traveller community do these families account for? It must be fairly high.

Have the representatives from Cena met the Traveller committees in Dublin City Council and the other three Dublin councils? The Dublin City Council committee is very positive about trying to get accommodation. If Cena has met the committees, what has been the feedback? If not, it should make contact with them to work towards a greater commitment on the delivery of homes.

An Cathaoirleach

Before the witnesses answer, I suggest that we table an amendment to the Planning and Development Act in Private Members' time. Deputy Joan Collins or any other member, including me, could do that in the Dáil or Seanad. I flag that as something we could do for the organisations. We could bring an amendment through the Seanad. I ask the witnesses to respond to Deputy Collins's questions.

Mr. Brian Dillon

The Deputy asked two questions of us. The first is very interesting as it related to having Traveller housing development as part of broader housing development and how that happens. We have done that already. The first homes we built in Tullamore, County Offaly, were part of a bigger development of 14 units of social housing and a four-unit Traveller development. That worked for a number of different reasons. We learn all the time, and we are learning every day, that when people talk about Traveller-specific accommodation, there is no such thing as a complete or universal definition. It really is about different people's needs and listening to those needs.

A cross-community effort is being put in there on an ongoing basis. We made the point in our paper that we saw the building of homes as probably the biggest task. However, building capacity, understanding and mutual respect is a far harder thing to build and we are spending a lot more time doing it. We have developments upcoming with Clúid Housing, which has a major development in Tullamore, and with Sligo County Council and its major development at the edge of Sligo town. We are using those as test beds where we already know the families we are working with in advance of that development. Everything is about planning it from the beginning. It is also about planning with the residents because it is not about building some magic Traveller home and then finding somebody to put into it. We work with families from day one and with the settled community and the surrounding community.

On Dublin City Council, I am not sure if the Deputy meant the local Traveller accommodation consultative committee, LTACC?

Deputy Joan Collins

Yes.

Mr. Brian Dillon

We have been to a couple of meetings with the LTACC.

We typically do that as a way of introduction to nearly every local authority area. What needs to happen, as a follow-up, is to pick one unit, perhaps a family unit, on a particular site and work through that. We need to get that as a starting point because we find that discussions can go on a long time at LTACCs about aspirations and what everybody would like to do and we just say, "Tell us where to start." We will be starting in Dublin city but we do not know where. The challenges in Dublin City are an awful lot different and, as I am sure Senator Flynn knows, there are entrenched difficulties such as access to land and people's options. Dublin city is a hard nut for us and we have not quite got into it but we are working with them.

Ms Margaret Casey

As Mr. Martin Collins has said, and as Senator Flynn and other Travellers will be very aware, the Traveller accommodation programme has failed Travellers since the beginning of time to right now. Cena provides solutions for long-term accommodation, assessment of needs and Travellers working with other Travellers. I think that is the way forward in terms of an approved housing body and a specialised body, which is Cena. Cena means "home" in Gammon. We have to accept that the programme is a smokescreen and has not delivered any Traveller-specific accommodation. What it has done to my people is assimilation and it has destroyed a lot of the Traveller community. It is my role here today to bring about long-term solutions and short-term solutions as there is a huge crisis in trailer loans and rentals. I believe that Travellers should not seek trailer loans and should rent them like settled people rent council homes. In the long term, we want to build modular homes that have been specifically designed to meet the needs of the Traveller community.

As I said at the beginning, the Department gave us a commitment a couple of years ago that it would support us to grow our model across the other housing associations and approved housing bodies. The associations and housing bodies want to work with us and we want to work with them but we did not get support and the Department has failed to deliver.

An Cathaoirleach

I ask Cena to send in the application form that it submitted. .

Ms Margaret Casey

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

Then we can work with that, which is important. Also, around Cena, is that level of discrimination. Mr. Collins spoke about an attitude of not in my backyard and not wanting Travellers to live in communities.

Ms Margaret Casey

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

I am sure that the other delegations wish to answer the question on access asked by Deputy Collins.

Ms Aoife Foley

Deputy Collins asked about the credit unions. We have worked with the credit unions and An Post, which are the main places where Travellers go to open accounts because there is trust and goodwill there. We have found that one of the biggest issues around opening bank accounts is identification due to the anti-money laundering legislation and the fact that ML10 forms are no longer being filled out by the Garda so people cannot use them as a form of identification. That is a big barrier to opening accounts. There is a big issue within banks. We have spoken to the Irish Banking Culture Board about providing culturally appropriate training to staff because people do not feel comfortable going into banks.

Deputy Collins asked about rent arrears, which is an issue that Deputy Ó Cuív touched on as well. National Traveller MABS has supported a number of different pilot projects and social inclusion funds with different credit unions and the Society of St. Vincent de Paul over the years. When they were evaluated it was discovered that where people used the household budget scheme to make their repayments the rate of arrears was less than 5% so it was quite small. The household budget scheme is only allowed through the Social Welfare Act for rent so a loan payment cannot be taken out of it but we have sought a legal opinion on that. We have been told by the Bar Council that it will require a very small change by the Minister to allow the household budget scheme to be used to make loan repayments as well, which would also dramatically reduce the arrears rate.

An Cathaoirleach

I have spoken to the Minister of State, Deputy Carroll MacNeill. She is very open to sitting down with MABS to make sure that Travellers have equal access to financial services. Any time that I have spoken to her in the corridors, on getting Travellers equal access to services like financial services, she has been very good. We must arrange to meet her in January.

Deputy Joan Collins

I hope the scheme will be a quick win.

An Cathaoirleach

Yes. Our focus, as a committee, is to get quick wins.

Mr. Martin Collins

I wish to make two points about the Planning and Development Bill and first the city and county development plans. As I said earlier, we are looking for a better alignment and coherence between the Traveller accommodation programmes and the city and county development plans. There is no alignment there at the moment. Traveller accommodation needs to be named and zoned in the city and county development plans because if they are not, then residents will legally challenge the plans. Invariably, they win because local authorities are being accused, and in this context rightly so, of being in breach of their own development plans if they build accommodation and it is not reflected in their development plans. We want a better alignment between the TAP and the city and county development plans. That is absolutely essential.

On the broader question, my view as a layperson is that it would be useful and beneficial to have Traveller accommodation named and specified in the Planning and Development Bill when it becomes an Act rather than not.

Deputy Joan Collins

Yes.

Mr. Martin Collins

Many of us here alluded to the issue of racism in society, local authority level and so forth. It is important that today we remind ourselves that racism, in particular around Traveller accommodation, happens in this House and has happened in this House.

Deputy Joan Collins

Yes.

Mr. Martin Collins

Over the years there have been many Deputies, and some who became Ministers, who engaged in racist rhetoric around the provision of Traveller accommodation. This racism goes to the higher echelons of society. It is not just at local authority level but permeates the whole political system. Indeed, politicians, Deputies and some people who became Ministers, by engaging in that racist rhetoric, validate and legitimise that racist rhetoric that happens at local authority level. I call on politicians, etc. to be a lot more responsible. I call on the leadership of parties, and most of these politicians belong to parties and some may be Independents, to rein in these people and discipline them for engaging in racist rhetoric, particularly around elections such as general elections. The local and European elections will take place next year and we are bracing ourselves. I will say what we have done on the national Traveller accommodation consultative committee. The process for the next round of the five-year TAP was meant to commence in February and be formally adopted around May or June, which is right in the middle of the local and European elections. The Traveller representatives asked for that process to be delayed until September because we know that during the local and European elections, this matter will be heavily politicised and some candidates will engage in cheap and reckless politics to get a few votes. Thankfully, the Department has agreed with us and has deferred the process until September to avoid the local and European elections.

Deputy Joan Collins

I agree with what Mr. Collins said about TDs and public representatives.

Deputy David Stanton

I will be brief because a lot of ground has been covered. I agree with Deputy Ó Cuív, and as I said here last week, we have got to approach this in two ways. There is the immediate and what we can do now but then there is the longer-term stuff. If we focus on the long-term stuff we will still be here in five years' time. A lot of progress has been made with education and we got that from NTRIS but more work needs to be done. We also need to do more about employment and health.

Today, we are here to talk about accommodation. As I said last week, and I completely agree with what has been said here, there should not be any loan involved for trailers and Travellers should be treated in the same way as people receiving social housing pay rent. It should be rental; full stop.

I think that is a very strong recommendation we should make straight away. Why should one group of people be treated differently from another group? I know we have loan schemes, but the choice should be there.

I like the Cena model; it is excellent. The committee should support it in any way we can. Unlike NTRIS, which I chaired for some years, which was quite frustrating, this is a public debate and we have a lot of authority in the committee to invite people such as Ministers and officials before the committee. We have done that and asked them to account for what they are doing and not doing. If we do not keep asking the right questions and inviting in people who make decisions, the file that we are talking about will sink to the bottom given the many other pressing issues. Our job is to keep renewing the issues by bringing people in, highlighting the issues and keeping at it.

National Traveller MABS is doing a great job as well. It should keep that going. If we can support it, we should do so.

It is good to meet Mr. Collins again. He mentioned the introduction of an ethnic identifier across all routine administrative data sets in local authorities to be rolled out in line with human rights standards in his submission. I know that local authorities already ask a question to identify whether a person is a Traveller, not a Traveller, or would prefer not to say. From other interactions I have had, I am told that for their own reasons a lot of people prefer not to say. That probably causes a problem. Could Mr. Collins elaborate a little more on what he means? It is happening already in local authorities, which have to do it under the 1998 Act. What else does he need for this particular request?

Mr. Martin Collins

Just before I respond to that question, I want to clarify Pavee Point's position on the trailer loan scheme. We are in favour of two schemes, both the trailer loan scheme and a trailer rental scheme running parallel, so that people have a choice. I just want to clarify that. We are absolutely not saying to scrap the trailer loan scheme.

Deputy Stanton referred to another point made in the submission. Something Pavee Point has been advocating since its very inception 40 years ago is the need for an ethnic identifier across our collection of data sets, whether in relation to health, employment or education so that we are able to measure and track progress and outcomes in terms of educational attainment, accommodation provision, and employment opportunities. As someone said earlier, if it cannot be measured, it is very difficult to manage it. We have worked with the CSO for more than 30 years and we managed to get Travellers included in the multiple ethnic affiliations people can choose. We feel it has a really important role to play in highlighting issues of exclusion, inequality and poor outcomes. That information and data can then help inform more evidence-based policy responses to address these issues. The data is absolutely essential in fighting inequality and promoting equality and inclusion.

The ethnic identifier has been introduced in the health service and it is being used by Pobal, the social inclusion local development company, and the information gathered by the Irish Prison Service and the education system. The problem with accommodation, which the Traveller representatives have raised several times on the national Traveller accommodation consultative committee in the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, is that it has only used the category of "Traveller". That is bad practice and, in fact, it is even illegal. There should be a multiple choice. We have argued that we need to use the national census template so that there is a consistent standard across the system not one Department having its own arrangement or template and another Department having another one. It is bad practice. We do not agree with asking only about the grounds of being a Traveller. People need to be able to choose from multiethnic affiliations.

The Deputy is absolutely right that there is a need for training and capacity building on how the information is gathered. Some people feel it is discriminatory, but it is not, far from it. He is spot on. At the end of the day, it is about self-identification, which is one of the key principles. The question is asked and it is up to the individual whether he or she wants to identify as a Traveller. Nobody can decide for you and nobody can force you. There is a set of international human rights principles that inform how this information is gathered because it is quite sensitive and it needs to be managed very carefully. One of the key principles is self-identification.

Deputy David Stanton

I want to make just one other point and then, unfortunately, I must run. Deputy Ó Cuív is right. He has been talking about the planning legislation before the Houses at the moment, and using it as a vehicle to make changes. He is also right, as I said myself last week, about the proposal to establish a national independent Traveller accommodation agency. It will have to be set up by primary legislation for it to have teeth. If we just set up a talking shop, it will not have any teeth. Perhaps one way to do that would be to suggest an amendment to the Bill that is going through at the moment. It could be a short amendment. It might be possible for the clerk to the committee to get advice from the legal services in the Houses to draft a short amendment that the committee could put forward, mandating the Minister to establish an agency. Once it is done under primary legislation, the agency would have authority and power and it can make decisions.

An Cathaoirleach

That is a really good idea.

Deputy David Stanton

There is an opportunity to do it now. It will need primary legislation anyway and we have a vehicle that we could use that is going through right now. There may be other barriers and reasons it cannot and should not happen that I do not know about at this stage but there is an opportunity to bring it into the conversation and to bring it into the legislation, which is at a pretty early stage. That would be up to the people on the housing committee to bring forward the amendment. This committee could draft an amendment, if the clerk does not kill me for proposing it.

An Cathaoirleach

It would be very strong if it comes from the committee because it is a cross-party forum.

Deputy David Stanton

It could set in train a mechanism to establish this agency pretty quickly, rather than waiting until we go through everything else. That is just a thought. Unfortunately, I need to go. I wish everyone a happy Christmas.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Deputy very much. That is a brilliant action. If that is even the only action from today's meeting, it would be powerful and something that we need to do.

Senator Paul Gavan

I thank all the witnesses for their presentations. I am very new to this committee and I am on a learning curve. I have huge respect for my colleagues who have spoken already because I can see their passion in trying to change things. It is great the way you have got this committee working, Chair. There seems to be a real commitment to try and deliver short- and medium-term changes.

I am really taken aback by the situation the Traveller community faces. I am also really struck by the last lines in the MABS presentation and it is worth repeating them. It states:

There are still Traveller families who cannot afford to heat their homes. They send their children to bed with extra blankets to keep them warm. They use candles rather than electricity. Every day they have to make decisions between heating and food for their families.

I do not doubt that statement for a moment. I just want to reflect on the fact that here we are in 2023 with a budget surplus of either €8 billion or €12 billion, yet people's basic needs are not being met in the most shocking of circumstances.

There have been some great suggestions today and it is great to see that they are going to be taken on board. I have two questions. The first goes back to Mr. Collins's point about institutionalised racism and the fact that a proposal has been made to the Department that it has sat on for two years. Has he had any response to it whatsoever? Has there been any kind of feedback or any direction? As he said, the Department gave a commitment that it was going to work with Travellers. We are all blown away by the model outlined. I love the phrase "self-determination". Has there been any response or have the witnesses just been met with silence for the two years?

Mr. Brian Dillon

It is very strange to be honest. We are just mystified because this was approved. This was a very specific recommendation by the expert review group. We worked on a very detailed proposal. We had a completely positive commitment from four of the largest approved housing bodies in Ireland.

We got as far as drawing up a service level agreement to resource the two staff we would have needed to implement this, but have not had a response. It has not been moved forward in the past two years. We do not know why. However, I welcome what the Cathaoirleach said. We will submit the proposal to people here. They can look at it and make up their minds about it.

An Cathaoirleach

Did you get a letter to say the application was received?

Mr. Brian Dillon

Yes, we have received about ten of those in the past few years.

There are a whole load of reasons why things do not move forward in a Department. It can be personal energy and misunderstandings. I have no idea what it is in this case. However, I would say there is some confusion about the idea that Cena needs core funding. We do not need that. We are an approved housing body. Our strength going forward is in our independence. We do not want that funding or dependence. We are driven by Traveller voices, and we will feel it the minute we stop being driven by them. We do not want core funding and there might be a misunderstanding around that. This is more about spreading the Cena model. The benefits would ultimately be for the Traveller community, but immediately it is about the approved housing bodies that want to deliver the right way and want to work with us that is being held up. It is not core funding for Cena. It is important people understand that, because there might be a misunderstanding.

An Cathaoirleach

There are many challenges for Cena. In the past few weeks I have dealt with two families that Cena is working with. One is in Kerry, where the council is refusing to work with Cena. It is internalised racism. Obviously, they do not say it is racism or discrimination because they cannot, but we know because of the situation and the surrounding area. I spoke to the family in Kerry. The community has a problem with the families, and it is remarkable because the housing agency is looking for an answer. We have Cena and we need to use it.

Senator Paul Gavan

One of the key things we need to do - I am sure everyone will support it - is to hold the Department to account on this as quickly as possible.

Ms Margaret Casey

Can I make one comment? I have been a Traveller activist for a long time, like many of the Travellers in this room. People always ask what the solution is. This was designed by Travellers, delivered, implemented and led by Travellers as a solution. We are facing barriers from the Department and at local level, as the Senator said. It can be very frustrating for Travellers. As regards self-determination, we are imposing and working with our community to bring effective change in infrastructure, education and the wraparound services that will really bring about change. We need the other approved housing bodies to work with us. They want to work with us and that is the best model going forward in the long term.

Senator Paul Gavan

The word that comes to mind is "empowerment". The witnesses are engaged in a process of empowerment which is fantastic. My request is that we - I know the witnesses already have it in hand - get the Department before the committee and hold it to account on this as soon as possible because it is entirely unacceptable and to be frank, I think it is a clear example of institutionalised racism, whereby for all the fine words, Cena has just been left and it is not good enough.

I will finish with my second question. Let me apologise in advance. I have to attend a leader debate in the Seanad for my party, Sinn Féin, which is why I keep looking over my shoulder every few minutes.

I was not aware of the MABS issue and did not realise how few Travellers have access to bank accounts. It is 63%. What is needed to address that issue and how can we go about addressing it? I entirely accept the point about financial exclusion and all the downsides to it. I am taken aback by the level of exclusion. What is the fix and how can we help?

Ms Aoife Foley

The biggest fix in the context of the conversation about institutional racism is probably to make banks a friendlier place. The majority of people we deal with do not want to talk to the banks because they have had a bad experience, their family and friends have had bad experiences and we have had bad experiences speaking to banks with clients, so it is difficult. That is not across the board, but a big trust-building exercise has to happen for people to feel comfortable and supported. There are also literacy and numeracy issues across the board. That is not unique to the Travelling community, but the numbers are higher in the community. There have to be supports in place to help people. Someone at a kiosk that is open from 1 p.m. to 3 p.m. every second Wednesday-----

Senator Paul Gavan

If you are lucky.

Ms Aoife Foley

Yes, - or every third month, where the staff are under pressure, cannot provide the support people might need to fill in a form or to understand how to use an online system. If people do not have access to the internet or the skills to navigate it, it is impossible, so huge trust-building is needed and it must come from the banks. There is no-----

An Cathaoirleach

Training was done with banks about two years ago around recognising domestic violence and coercive control. It would be powerful if those kinds of services had Traveller awareness. When a Traveller walks into a bank, the bank staff are not meeting the whole community, they are meeting an individual where they are. Services should be meeting people where they are, not judging a whole community. Sometimes people make assumptions about you because you are a member of the Traveller community, such as that you cannot read or write. The level of racism and discrimination that still exists in Ireland for Travellers is appalling. Even listening to Mr. Collins say that we put off getting stuff done during the general elections and the European elections is appalling. Where would you ever hear of a community that comes into the House and says, as Mr. Collins did, that they are bracing themselves for the elections. It is striking to hear those kinds of statements in Leinster House today. As a committee, we have to look at how to change and challenge that. Perhaps, with the banks it is about raising awareness and working with people. That would be powerful.

Senator Paul Gavan

I agree with everything the Chair said. My last comment is that the banks have made clear that they do not want anyone going into their branches. They are effectively turning us all away and making it a really unpleasant-----

(Interruptions).

An Cathaoirleach

We will take your money but we will not give it back.

Senator Paul Gavan

Exactly. They make it a really unpleasant experience to try to get in. It is not the fault of the staff. In fact, there are too few staff in bank branches. I cannot imagine how much more difficult it must be for members of the Traveller community. We need to call the banks to account over it.

I am grateful for the presentations and thank the witnesses for their time today.

An Cathaoirleach

Would Senator Joe O'Reilly like to come in?

Senator Joe O'Reilly

I thank the Chair and welcome the witnesses. At this stage, there is very little new to be said. Unfortunately, at all these meetings there is very little new to be said. The same issues keep coming up. Many good points have been made by colleagues. I do not propose to go through them all one by one, but I will say a few quick things. It is important, as this is a public meeting, that we all indicate support strongly and there is no ambiguity around that. It seems a good idea - I take the point that Mr. Collins wants the trailer loan scheme to remain for those who wish to avail of it, but it seems logical, as my colleague says, that there would be a differential rent scheme for the trailers in the same way as there is for social housing.

In fact, it would seem absolutely discriminatory and wrong that that would not be the case. I go with that.

The issues around social protection should be brought to the attention of the Minister and the officials in the Department. There are probably anomalies there. One would like to believe that the officials did not get up one morning and decide that the Traveller community would not get the benefits. The anomalies that are preventing them from doing so should be ironed out. I am sure that if the witnesses sought meetings with the senior officials in the Department initially, or the Minister, it should be manageable. There should be no issue if methodology needs to be changed.

In relation to MABS, as Deputy Collins said, the credit unions are the obvious vehicle. There are fewer banks now. As my colleague said, they are becoming mechanised and they are not even that available to consumers. Retail banking is going down a lot. Perhaps the credit unions are more accessible. The services provided by MABS is good. I know it is not unique to the Traveller community or any specific grouping, but there is a shocking problem with illegal money lending and the people who call to collect money each week. I saw it in my own area after the recession. It is not a problem that is unique to the Traveller community, but if there is not proper banking it is a real risk, at this time of year specifically.

I agree with the point that was made that the county and city development plans need to have zoned land to get over the issue of not having zoned land. The point about putting the housing development plans on hold until after the local and European elections is an interesting one. As the Chair said, it is bleak that it should be the case, but it is the case. I do not know how we would co-ordinate that access to the Departments, but there is no question that it needs doing.

Before the witnesses respond, I should say that it is a horror to provide any politician of any party, from either House of the Oireachtas or from any council, with a platform for racism. There is a real risk that the local elections would be an obvious time for that. I take that point. I do not know how the hate speech legislation will deal with racism in that sphere. It has not been passed yet, as Senator Flynn knows. It would not really deal with challenging a particular development, needless to say. There is no merit in going on, other than to leave no ambiguity that we are all of one voice. Some great suggestions have been made.

Mr. Martin Collins

Just to clarify, we did succeed and get agreement from the Department of housing that the adoption of the TAPs will be delayed until the local and European elections are finished-----

Senator Joe O'Reilly

Excellent.

Mr. Martin Collins

-----to avoid any potential racism or the issue being politicised. Another rationale for that, which makes a tonne of sense, is that when the new councils are in place, they will do the formal adoption of the TAPs. There will be more ownership because they will have formally adopted them, rather than it being a case of the previous councils adopting them and the new councils not feeling a sense of ownership. That was another reason why we all agreed it was a good idea do delay their adoption.

An Cathaoirleach

We had a briefing on the hate crime legislation last week in the AV room. We spoke about the importance of having that legislation in place for members of our community. It will not stop racism and hatred. People will still have the right to be offensive, if that makes sense, despite the scaremongering out there about the legislation. We believe, as a community, along with the organisations, that it is something positive. Obviously, it is not going to stop racism and hatred, but it will make people think twice before they commit a hate crime towards a member of the Traveller community. It is a step in the right direction. Mr. Collins would be very professional in the area of hate crime, and has called for a review of the legislation in a few years. I am trying to get it across the line in here. I think it will be something positive for Ireland as a whole. I know that Fine Gael is supporting the legislation as it stands. We need cross-party support for it.

I do not know if anybody has any other comments. I want to ask one question. Last week, a witness said that the trailer loan scheme should be abolished and done away with.

Mr. Martin Collins

Who said that?

An Cathaoirleach

Last week, a witness in the committee said that. It is public knowledge. I do not agree with it myself. What is the witnesses' opinion on that? Should we abolish the scheme? I know that it is under review, and that members of the National Traveller Women's Forum have called for a review of it. I ask the witnesses for their opinion on it.

We have had a really successful meeting, with proposals for action points, amendments to Bills and the suggestion that we write to the Department of Social Protection. I thank the witnesses for coming in and ask them to respond to the question on the trailer loan scheme.

Ms Margaret Casey

It is vital that we have a trailer loan scheme for crises happening in the community on a short-term basis. There are very vulnerable families, as Ms Foley and Mr. Collins mentioned. It should never be abolished, in my opinion.

Mr. Martin Collins

Pavee Point's position is very clear. There is a need for two schemes. The loan scheme should be retained for those Travellers who want to buy, but it needs a big improvement. I think we would all agree that the amount provided is quite low, insufficient and everything else. I understand that there will be a review of the scheme in May, which we welcome. The Traveller groups will be part of that review process. We need a rental scheme for those who do not want to buy, just as in the general community, where people have the option of either buying or renting a house. Travellers should have the option of either buying or renting a trailers. That is very clear, in my opinion.

The last point I wish to make is very important, because it tends to be forgotten about. There is another scheme, namely, the trailer emergency scheme. We know about climate change and everything else, and we have seen the storms we have been having. There is a scheme for emergency situations, for example if a trailer is damaged by the weather or, God forbid, a fire or something like that. That is a separate scheme and a really important one as well.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Every time I hear mention of a report or review right across the whole Government system, and it is endemic in it nowadays, I shudder. They will tell us that the review will be all done in five months, but that is not the case considering the time it takes for it to be done, published, sent out for public consultation, come back and so on. If a big review is required, that is fine, and it should be completed. In the meantime, the obvious should be done and that does not need a review. Action should be taken based on need. We are politicians and we are elected to make decisions. For argument's sake, if we were to appoint one of the witnesses as Minister tomorrow, they could go in and tell their colleagues that people cannot sleep another night in damp, wet, cold and miserable conditions, so we should immediately ensure that everybody who needs a trailer, gets one. They could also ensure that they deal with the issue so that sufficient money is provided to buy new trailers that are to standard. Who, of the Traveller groups or interested parties, would oppose that? I am making this point from experience in Government. We must be wary of grand plans and reviews, because a lot of the time they are more delaying mechanisms than mechanisms for bringing about change. If I might say so, there is a consultation process and then they do exactly what they intended to do in the beginning anyway. We should look at it from the other side of the table. When I was in Government, my view was that if, in my heart and soul, I could defend what I was going to do in the Dáil against all reasonable comment, then that is what I was elected to do.

Let me give my view on some of these matters. The pilot scheme was set up, and then there was a lot of kicking up, involving an ombudsman and all the rest. I still believe from the correspondence I have that the ombudsman in question had a reasonable effect on getting what we got. The Department came up with a measly scheme that had to be reviewed after one year. We have all agreed at this meeting. Suppose the Minister called in all the Traveller groups tomorrow and said he intended to give one week in which to submit a proposal but that he would take responsibility. Would the groups stop that Minister? We can get sucked into delays on the other side of this. I know I am talking tough but we can all get sucked into delays. The witnesses should remember I know this as I was a Minister. With regard to most of the schemes I created, I just created them and did not enter a long consultation process. I was able to adjust the schemes if an issue arose.

The witnesses may have heard of the rural social scheme. I will outline how it arose. There was a bit of a row between a few Ministers, and I saw my opportunity. I went to the then Taoiseach and he told me to go to the Minister for Finance. I went to the latter three days before the budget and he asked me to have a proposal on his desk at 9 o'clock the following morning. I came in at 7.30 a.m. and wrote up my proposal. The scheme proposed was the same as the one in force today. I put the proposal on the Minister's desk and had the scheme in three days. Was I right or wrong? Should I have entered some convoluted process or taken my chances, saying that if there was an issue, we could mend it.

Senator Joe O'Reilly

That scheme was transformative.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

In making my point, I am not going to take anybody to task. From my experience, most Ministers get two and a half years and are then shuffled. I got a long time but, because of the two-and-a-half-year timeframes, you never knew when the hatchet was going to fall. If you wasted your time and got sucked into the review gig without doing the immediately obvious, you would be out the door before anything happened. I ask that we all reflect on this because all I can ever think of is the fact that the people who come into the constituency clinic go out to a halting site with caravans that are not fit for human habitation. If others were in them, they would be queueing up to complain. I do not know how many times I raised the caravan scheme in the Dáil last year. I did so time and again during Questions on Policy or Legislation, during which Members can raise any issue they want, and still nothing happened. I often raised the matter purposely on a really cold, wet, miserable or frosty day and asked Members whether they would like to sleep in a bad, leaky, damp caravan on such a day. The biggest thing we have to insist on is action. That is my-----

An Cathaoirleach

Yes. As everyone can hear, Deputy Ó Cuív loves pilot programmes and reviews.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

When I make changes, I hate pilot programmes.

An Cathaoirleach

I know.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Make the change.

Mr. Martin Collins

I will make just one final comment because I know we are up against the clock. I totally agree with Deputy Ó Cuív's point that nobody wants a drawn-out, long-winded review process. Therefore, it needs to be short, sharp and concise, involving just the Department, Traveller organisations and a number of local authorities. We believe it is really important because there are some genuine difficulties and deficiencies in the present scheme that need to be addressed.

The Department of housing produces an annual estimate every November of the number of Travellers in the country and their accommodation and living conditions. The annual estimate of November 2022 came out only two weeks ago. Let me give an example from it. It suggests 1,561 Traveller families are either sharing on the side of the road or doubling up. That is an increase of 23% on the 2020 figures. We have 1,561 Traveller families who are effectively homeless. This cohort is not eligible for the trailer loan scheme, and that is the problem. The conditions and criteria, which we fought very hard against but on which we did not succeed, mean the families are not eligible for the trailer loan scheme, or would not be eligible for the trailer rental scheme if it were in place, because they are living on unofficial sites or doubling up with a family member in the backyard, bay or whatever it might be. The Department argues it would be in breach of its own planning regulations if it recognised and gave a trailer to a family that lived with another family, either doubling up in a bay or on the side of the road. This is a big problem. We have 1,561 Traveller families who are not eligible for the scheme.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Could I ask one question on that? I have been dealing with three groups of Travellers in respect of accommodation. One group is doubling up in standard housing and wants standard housing. In many cases, they want the housing in the same estate as the family, but sometimes not. Another group is on a Traveller-specific site but in built accommodation as opposed to trailers, and yet another group is in trailers. I ask in a positive way how many of the 1,500 families, be they in halting sites and doubling up in trailers or otherwise, would take a trailer as their first choice and not want standard housing? Maybe I am wrong but my view is that the customer is always king. People may say they want something they do not really want because the halting bays or Traveller-specific accommodation may not be available. Many face this in life. In my estimation, a fair number of people who grew up in standard housing and who are doubling up will even tell you where they want the standard housing. I am saying that because, if the 1,500 include a group other than those who just want trailers, it makes the problem easier for the Government to solve. This is because there is less demand than might appear to be the case. It would not be a matter of 1,500 bays. Do the witnesses understand?

Mr. Martin Collins

I do, yes.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Does Cena do anything to provide modern halting sites with good conditions, built to its specifications?

Mr. Brian Dillon

Part of what we have had to do all the time is reinvent a new set of words. We now rarely refer to halting sites.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Sorry for the bad language.

Mr. Brian Dillon

We are now working on a very exciting project in Limerick city, beginning in Limerick county. We are talking about what is called a camp. There are not too many left in Ireland. We have had one of the best architects. We have been very lucky to work with someone who is brilliant with design and determining what things will look like in the future. Some of the notions are very simple. We are saying that, instead of hiding the concept, we want to consider ways of designing to promote it and consider the damage that has been done by taking away people's right to travel and denying nomadism. It is a matter of asking how it can be reflected in a camp. Travellers are telling us "camp" is the word they want. Is a halting site somewhere you have to halt? In a sense, the phrase is synonymous with "This is where you are now because you cannot move". People know the conditions anyway. I do not think we have to tell anybody here how conditions on halting sites have deteriorated across Ireland.

Most of what we do in those situations involves going in and talking on a family-by-family basis. In no case has there been one single solution. People have choices. Some people do not want to be there. However, for those who want to be there, we work with them on the design.

An Cathaoirleach

The Traveller community is like any other. CENA did some work in Labre Park some years ago. Community development work is essential. Sometimes, as with any group, complex situations arise in meeting people's needs. CENA is unique in that it works with the families. This is about future-proofing, to support a family to obtain the accommodation it wants. Having a choice of accommodation is important. It is that basic. It is about old-fashioned community development work that we do not much see nowadays.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

I have one final point that may be useful. Some word preferences have come up today such as trailer, camp and so on. When a publication is in English, Irish speakers receive a list of Irish vocabulary for those who are not fluent in the Irish language. It is the same thing. Would it be possible to compile commonly used terms that the community has preferences for us to use, such as always referring to trailers or to camps and so on?

An Cathaoirleach

It is important to be careful because many, such as my family, would not say Labre Park is a camp. They would say it is a halting site. It is important that people have that.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

What I am asking is, is "trailer" agreed?

An Cathaoirleach

Yes, everyone is okay with that.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

If there are other words-----

Mr. Michael Collins

My father would be rolling in his grave if I used the term "caravan".

An Cathaoirleach

Even before we had witnesses publicly, we had the discussion about the trailer loan scheme. Language is important. Travellers have slang words. Some people say that a trailer is something that goes on the back of a van or a car, whereas in my life a trailer was a home to many a person. The Deputy has raised an important question that we as a committee need to look at about our language and the best way to speak to the community. The best way to do that is by using the terms the Traveller community uses. For example, some people would use the term "camps". In that context it is okay.

Mr. Michael Collins

Some use the Cant word "molly" which is another word for "camp".

An Cathaoirleach

I really enjoyed today's committee because of the actions and achievements. The small goals are important. I thank all the members and staff and wish everybody a happy Christmas.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.24 p.m. sine die.