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Joint Committee on Key Issues affecting the Traveller Community (2023) debate -
Thursday, 22 Feb 2024

Traveller Accommodation: Discussion (Resumed)

Good morning everyone. I welcome Anna McBrearty, a young woman who is doing placement with me, to the meeting. We have apologies from Senators Joe O'Reilly and Ned O'Sullivan.

I remind members that they must be physically present in Leinster House in order to take part in the public meeting. I will not allow members to take part in the meeting if they are outside of Leinster House. The evidence of witnesses physically present in Leinster House is protected by absolute privilege but they should not criticise or make charges against any person by name or in such a way as makes him or her identifiable.

I propose that we publish the opening statements from Galway City Council and Dublin City Council on the Oireachtas website. I suggest that witnesses speak for five to ten minutes and we will then go to members for questions.

Very swiftly then, we will move on to traveller accommodation. I thank our witnesses for being here today. The representatives from Galway City Council and Dublin City Council are all very welcome. I invite Mr. Tony Smithers from Dublin City Council to make his opening statement.

Mr. Tony Smithers

I am the senior executive officer with responsibility for Traveller-specific accommodation throughout Dublin City. I am accompanied today by my colleagues Ms Denise Doyle, head of the Traveller accommodation unit, and Ms Sorcha Farrell, senior social worker.

On behalf of Dublin City Council, I thank the Joint Committee on Key Issues Affecting the Traveller Community for extending an invitation to attend this meeting. We welcome the opportunity to participate in the discussions. Dublin City Council welcomes the review of the recommendations in the final report. We recognise that Traveller accommodation is a priority and are committed to providing good quality, sustainable and culturally appropriate accommodation.

Local authorities are governed by the Housing (Traveller Accommodation) Act 1998 and have general responsibility for the provision of housing for adults and families who cannot afford to provide it for themselves. Traveller-specific accommodation is included in this provision and expected delivery plans are outlined in our Traveller accommodation programmes. Dublin City Council is in the process of drafting its new Traveller accommodation programme, which will come into effect in December and which will cover the period 2025 to 2029.

The council is working in partnership with approved housing bodies, the HSE, Tusla, community representative groups and other key stakeholders to provide assistance to Traveller families in need of housing and additional supports. Our aim is to support Traveller families in obtaining accommodation that suits their needs. Our housing department includes a dedicated Traveller accommodation unit that specifically deals with Traveller families that live in existing culturally appropriate halting sites and group housing schemes, along with Traveller families seeking accommodation across 14 sites throughout Dublin City. Additional support is provided by a team of five social workers, including one senior social worker, dedicated to working with members of the Traveller community. Importantly, all current staff have completed cultural awareness and anti-racism training through Pavee Point. This training has been extended to all council staff via our human resources department in conjunction with Pavee Point. We see this as an important step in progressing our internal training system for all staff throughout the organisation dealing with the Traveller community and other ethnic minorities.

Since the commencement of our current Traveller accommodation programme in 2019, Dublin City Council’s Traveller accommodation unit has committed to improving service delivery across all our Traveller-specific group housing schemes, halting sites and unauthorised sites. We take a collaborative approach and engage with key stakeholders to provide high quality, fully serviced, sustainable and culturally appropriate homes. As noted in previous presentations to this committee, access to the private rental market is difficult for all at present. The lack of availability of larger housing units impacts on Traveller families in particular. There is some evidence of failed tenancies that have led to homelessness.

Dublin City Council uses all measures available to assist families seeking private rented accommodation which includes the provision of homeless housing assistance payment, HAP, place-finder support and the use of the differential rent hardship clause, where appropriate. More recently the tenant in situ scheme and the extension of the choice-based letting scheme online has been successfully used to prevent homelessness. Dublin City Council’s Traveller accommodation staff work hard to maintain prompt service delivery and estate management processes across all our sites. There have, however, been several incidents where staff welfare and safety on site has been compromised. This has also been the case with contractors who have had to withdraw their services from some sites. Incidents such as these severely hamper progress on our sites. It is to the detriment of vulnerable tenants when sites cannot be adequately maintained because of threats to staff and contractors.

Dublin City Council has taken steps to remedy these issues, including engaging with the Traveller Mediation Service, and it continues to endeavour to deliver the required services to all of our sites.

Since 2021, Dublin City Council has housed 44 Traveller families from our housing list who had a priority. The Traveller accommodation unit, TAU, has spent in excess of €24.2 million through its revenue budget on maintenance and repair of our sites, along with providing a waste removal service and more than €12.9 million on our capital works programme. In 2024, the TAU has a revenue budget of €6.7 million and a capital budget of €7.9 million.

Dublin City Council welcomed the introduction of the national caravan loan scheme in 2021. The scheme aims to provide loans to the Traveller community to purchase mobile homes as their primary place of residence. Some 18 loans were successfully issued in 2022 by Dublin City Council to a total value of €720,000. Funding for eight loans was granted to the council in 2023, with funding for an additional two loans was made available in December 2023. All have now been allocated to families on our waiting list. The total value of these loans amounts to €400,000. While Dublin City Council is very happy to participate in this scheme, it is our view that the maximum loan amount of €40,000 is not sufficient to provide the type of mobile home required for larger families. We would be happy to discuss this in more detail.

Dublin City Council takes a multi-agency approach to dealing with the wider issues affecting the Traveller community. This includes working with Cena on the design and construction of culturally appropriate homes; with the Traveller Mediation Service with regard to conflict resolution on sites; with the gardaí to help forge better relationships with communities; and with Exchange House, Traveller primary health care, the HSE and Tusla on the provision of childcare and community support facilities.

The following works give an insight into our work programme in terms of improvements to accommodation standards: the TAU in Dublin City Council completed a maintenance audit across all of our sites in 2023, and following that we implemented a site-by-site maintenance and repair plan to address these issues, which commenced in January 2024. We undertook and completed a retrofit programme in Cara Park. Of the 28 houses completed, one house received an A3 rating while the remaining 27 obtained a B1 rating. An extended retrofit programme is planned for 2024. That has been agreed and the remaining 95 units of group housing will receive a retrofit in 2024 by Dublin City Council. That will ensure all of our remaining Traveller-specific housing stock receives a full energy upgrade. These works have contributed to resolving and reducing any outstanding maintenance issues on site, which will also reduce costs going forward. We are implementing a new waste management plan in 2024 across all of our Traveller-specific sites. We would be happy to provide more information on this to the committee.

Dublin City Council's TAU is also committed to assisting Traveller families to access support services through our social work team, Tusla and the HSE. This support has included help in accessing mental health services and occupational therapists where families have disability or mobility issues that require adaptations to their accommodation. In the context of the caravan loan scheme, we would like to discuss the adaptation of caravans to assist with mobility for those who want to live in culturally appropriate homes. That is a discussion we would like to have here as well today.

The social work team provides a holistic, specialist support service to Traveller individuals and families through responsive, preventative and advocacy work. Social workers work collaboratively with Traveller representatives, Traveller representative organisations, and statutory and non-statutory agencies on a continuous basis, not only in an effort to signpost and support individual families and to resolve personal and housing-related difficulties, but also to address and progress wider issues affecting the Traveller community.

Social workers also assess and make Traveller priority recommendations with regard to the housing needs of families and advocate for Travellers on housing vacancies. The senior social worker on the social work team for Travellers is responsible for co-ordinating and completing the returns for the annual estimate of Traveller families and their accommodation position on behalf of Dublin City Council. In 2023, a total of 854 families were identified in the Dublin City Council area on the date of the count. Although currently the figure for homeless Traveller families and individuals cannot be included in the returns to the Department, the Dublin Region Homeless Executive, DRHE, identified a total of 52 households identifying as Traveller families and accessing emergency accommodation in Dublin city on the date of the count.

As a result of the review of the role of local authority social workers assisting Travellers with accommodation needs, which was commissioned by the Housing Agency in 2020, Traveller representatives and local authority social workers and managers were consulted, a vision was developed, and the LGMA is currently conducting a review of local authority social work. The Traveller accommodation unit has contacted our human resources department to request a re-establishment of the previous apprenticeship programme which was specifically aimed at members of the Traveller community to assist them in gaining employment.

The local Traveller accommodation consultative committee, LTACC, is also looking at ways we might support members of the Traveller community to start their own business in the circular economy in an effort to assist with, and encourage, accessibility to employment and self-employment.

The TAU hopes to continue to foster and develop new and existing relationships in an open and transparent manner with all members of the Traveller community, its community representatives, local government representatives, the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and our neighbouring local authorities. Dublin City Council fully supports a definition of culturally appropriate accommodation to provide clarity for all stakeholders involved. We hope to continue to work collaboratively to achieve not only a greater understanding of the Traveller community but to deliver culturally appropriate accommodation in an urban setting.

Since I took over the TAU in Dublin City Council just over a year ago, we have restructured our unit. We now have an administration team that deals with budgets, caravan loans, rents and invoices, with a huge focus on customer service. We have a technical team that looks after the day-to-day management of short- and long-term maintenance, including fire safety. We have a capital projects team that will oversee the Traveller accommodation programme, TAC, project from 2019 to 2024, in addition to the future TAC project. We have a caretaking team for the day-to-day running of our sites, including the waste management plan, and an estates management team that implements Dublin City Council's antisocial policy and procedures. Approximately 27 staff in total are assigned to our unit, including clerical workers, architects, quantity surveyors and planners, who work closely with us on planning future works and sites in the area.

In 2023, our LTACC met six times, under the leadership of Mr. Jack Keyes, who is the chair. We had several other meetings on the review of the TAC project, which were overseen by Dr. Seán Ó'Riordáin. We have already met once this year, in January 2024. Our next meeting will be in March of this year.

On the emergency caravan grant, we provided assistance with nine emergency caravans in 2023. That comes under the departmental criteria of flood, fire and storm. We also provided three medical caravans, specifically built for the needs of two children and one older person. We are in the process of adapting and building another mobile caravan for another child's needs, which will be culturally appropriate as the family wish to live in a culturally appropriate setting. I will discuss that further under caravan loans.

We recently had a very positive meeting with Clúid regarding the redevelopment of Labre Park, on which I will give updates. It is a Clúid application but DCC is supporting it. We are to meet the Department to seek clarification on co-ordinating the phase 2 works and the overall redevelopment to redesign the plan to allow for extra Traveller-specific accommodation for the families at Labre Park. I will discuss that further later. I know members will come back to me with a couple of queries on that, especially regarding the works on flooding and some contaminated areas that has held this up. We are trying to resolve those issues. We are on the cusp of something. We are nearly there in getting this over the line once and for all for the residents of Labre Park. I will mention the Ballyfermot Traveller action project, BTAP, especially Shay and Róisín, which is very supportive of DCC on the ground at Labre Park. Without their help, we would not get those works completed.

I will let the head of the section come in on the waste management plan. I again thank the Chair for the invitation.

We will move on to Galway City Council. I thank its representatives for making the time to be here. We appreciate them giving their presentation.

Ms Elizabeth Fanning

Good morning to the Chair and members of the committee. I am acting director of services for housing at Galway City Council. I am accompanied by my colleague, Ms Helena Martyn, acting senior executive officer in housing, and our senior social worker, Ms Catherine Fahy.

On behalf of Galway City Council, we thank the committee for the opportunity to attend on matters relating to accommodation for Travellers.

This includes the Traveller caravan loan scheme and progress made by Galway City Council in implementing the recommendations featured in the final report of the Joint Committee on Key Issues Affecting the Traveller Community. Quite recently, Galway City Council has been building up its unit and very recently recruited a new Traveller accommodation officer, and a Traveller liaison officer join our dedicated Traveller accommodation unit. This also includes a dedicated executive engineer, an assistant engineer, a clerk of works and a foreman. This unit is dedicated to supporting members of the Traveller community in conjunction with the social work unit, and our tenancy sustainment supports both pre- and post-tenancy and helps to support their transition into the new home as well as providing other well-being supports.

There were 18 recommendations on accommodation in the previous report, so I will give the committee a quick update on No. 67 regarding homelessness. Galway City Council will continue to deliver and accommodate homeless Travellers via Housing First and other housing-led programmes. We recently reduced the percentage of homeless Travellers from in excess of 50% to 37% and will keep working on this. Regarding recommendation No. 68,the audit of living conditions in all Traveller-specific halting sites, and recommendation No. 69, the audit to include all mobile homes and caravans, Galway City Council has gone to market on two occasions to engage a suitable competent surveyor to carry out these audits but has received no market response, so a further audit tender will be published in quarter 1 of 2024 and we hope to get a surveyor in. In the meantime, Galway City Council carries out routine maintenance on all sites and addresses any deficiencies in accommodation, communal facilities and site infrastructure as they arise.

Regarding recommendation No. 70, which involves Traveller-specific accommodation, we are delighted to announce that we are currently on site constructing five culturally appropriate Traveller group housing units on land belonging to Galway City Council on Circular Road. This involves the redevelopment of the existing halting site. We are undertaking this in conjunction with Cena, which has been brilliant. It will replace the existing halting site bays and include three three-bed dwellings, a four-bed dwelling and a two-bed dwelling.

The new Traveller accommodation programme is being drafted. I can confirm that the results of the audit will be included in this current Traveller accommodation programme, as will recommendation No. 72 regarding new family formations. That will be included as part of the consultation on the new Traveller accommodation programme for 2025 to 2029, which we are undertaking.

Recommendation No. 73 concerns planning issues. Galway City Council has a further complexity with planning in that it lies in a special area of conservation and a special protection area, so the majority of its developments are screened in for Part 10 planning, which must go to An Bord Pleanála. We have not been very successful recently. Last year, two major housing developments at Keeraun and Headford Road were refused by An Bord Pleanála after 16 months of waiting for the decision. This included 12 Traveller-specific units across those developments. These blockages to the delivery of the Traveller accommodation programme not only negatively affect delivering houses but also affected the trust and confidence we have built, so it is a blow.

Galway City Council welcomes recommendation No. 74, which recommends that a national Traveller accommodation authority be established, and sees merit in it. Regarding recommendations Nos. 75 and 76, I am happy to confirm that the Traveller identifier was implemented by Galway City Council in 2023 and that choice of accommodation is recorded as part of the housing application process. Accommodation choice can be amended if households submit a change in preference areas.

We welcome recommendation No. 77, that determining the number of Travellers in a local authority be standardised across all local authorities, but we do capture some of it under the annual summary of social housing assessment. We welcome the recommendation to remove the "local requirement" because it is a difficulty across the boundary between Galway city and county, as many of our Traveller families have a preference for the county council jurisdiction.

Regarding recommendation No. 79 on research on the design of culturally appropriate accommodation for Travellers, we carried out this research as part of the Circular Road project. It involved extensive communication with all stakeholders and was facilitated by Cena. It was essential and has helped the success of the project. This consultation is continuing to take place during the construction phase and will continue during the handover to Cena for it to run the site. We feel this is a prototype and that we can use this research for further similar projects like the Cena project in Circular Road and bring it to other sites in the city. We therefore hope it is a start for us when it comes to supplying Traveller-appropriate and Traveller-specific accommodation.

Recommendation No. 80 relates to transient sites, and Galway City Council has provided a transient site.

On funding, working with Cena has been extremely successful for Galway City Council and we would welcome more Traveller-specific approved housing bodies, AHBs, in the sector.

In respect of recommendation No. 82 and the trespass legislation, we feel it is outside the control of Galway City Council.

Recommendation No. 83 refers to the European Typology on Homelessness, ETHOS, and the definition of "homelessness". Galway City Council agrees that we need to capture the figures for Travellers in homelessness. They are skewed and we need a new way of defining them so we can capture the situation more exactly.

We feel the matter raised in recommendation No. 84 would be outside our control.

I will move on to the caravan loan scheme, which we have welcomed. We have worked with the scheme and it has been successful. We have had 34 applications, ten of which were deemed ineligible. Eight applications have been successful over the past two years. Four of those caravans are now in situ and four are in transit or being delivered and installed as we speak. We are on track for a successful conclusion of the scheme for 2022 to 2023. We agree with Dublin City Council that the maximum limit of €40,000 is not enough because the ancillary costs could be as high as €10,000 per caravan. We would welcome a review of this funding for future schemes. That would be beneficial.

We in Galway City Council have examples of initiatives to support the needs of Travellers, particularly welfare and well-being initiatives. We have a fully functioning local Traveller accommodation consultative committee, LTACC, which has an agreed communication protocol that serves, in part, as an equality statement. It is underpinned by the equality and human rights value statement. We are also undertaking a pilot halting site estate management strategy, which is very near completion. It will be the first Traveller-specific estate management strategy nationally.

We have also undertaken an assessment of human rights and equality issues as part of the mid-term review of the current Traveller accommodation programme, TAP, in line with the recommendations of the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission, IHREC. We are implementing the actions from the 2021 IHREC equality review.

In an effort to make Traveller sites more child friendly, which is important, we installed in 2023 two brand new playgrounds on two halting sites with funding from the Dormant Accounts Fund. We have also housed six Traveller families and prevented homelessness via the tenant in situ scheme and we have helped one family to purchase a home via the tenant purchase scheme.

It is important that, via the LTACC, we received equality and diversity training in December 2019, January 2020, June 2023 and as recently as yesterday. This has been facilitated by our independent chair, Mr. Niall Crowley, and has been invaluable. It has been so good that we hope to roll it out across the wider organisation.

In our unit in Galway City Council, we are passionate, driven and energetic. We will continue to prioritise the implementation of the recommendations of the final report, to deliver the range of accommodation that is required for Travelling families, and to cater to their needs. We will continue to proactively engage with the local Traveller communities and all representatives and stakeholders to understand the accommodation preferences and needs and to plan for the future of Traveller-specific accommodation in all areas.

It is important we update regularly. We propose to provide updates on our progress via the Galway housing task force as well as our strategic policy committees, SPCs. We will also provide quarterly updates to the LTACC and an annual report to the national Traveller accommodation consultative committee, NTACC. We have had four meetings per year with the LTACCs since they were established in 2020. We had a successful meeting as recently as yesterday. The system is fully functioning. It has taken a while but we now feel it is at the point of functioning fully. All of the members and stakeholders are engaged and we hope to build on this and help to deliver more in the future.

I thank all the officials from Dublin and Galway, the latter of whom I am in continual contact with. I thank them for the work they do.

I have listened with care to what has been said by both parties about the caravan loan scheme.

First, have they any idea as to what they consider the appropriate life cycle of a caravan to be? My understanding is that most of these caravans are second-hand. If a brand-new caravan has a life cycle of, say, eight years, with thermal quality and so on, then, obviously, you have to take off the years before its purchase for the second time. What would the witnesses consider an appropriate life cycle for a caravan before it would have to be replaced in order that people would be living in appropriate accommodation?

A second question arises out of that. Every local authority that has appeared before us has said the money is insufficient, and I think everybody knows that. Have the witnesses any idea as to what would be sufficient? Should there be differences depending on family makeup - in other words, if there are many children and so on? What should we be asking for? Is it €60,000, or €50,000? What would buy a brand-new caravan? Do the witnesses agree that we should be going for brand-new trailers? We would get a longer life cycle out of them. Otherwise, we will have to keep coming back again.

I have another question for both local authorities. I think Galway City Council has already half-answered it, but I want to ask this in a systematic way. There are people who choose to live in trailers, and nobody is trying to move them on. That is their accommodation. We need an objective view as to what is a trailer's life cycle and what is considered a suitable place to live. This is not emergency accommodation. It is nothing like that. This is permanent. Have the witnesses done a needs assessment? It is a fairly finite request from us to the Government, out of all the money being spent on housing, to suggest something we can do quickly and to get every trailer that every Traveller is living in up to this objective standard in order that this is done. After that, obviously, you just replace the caravans as they come to their sell-by date. I would be interested in the witnesses' response to this because we need to formulate a systematic process here rather than a drip-feed, whereby a number is picked which might have no relationship to the demand. If it were to cost a few billion, I would say, "Okay, financial issues come into account", but in the context of the housing budget, this is small money to solve a problem immediately. My understanding is that with a lot of housing problems at the moment, money is not the issue; the issue is that a lot of them - we will talk to Galway City Council about this - become intractable because of, for example, planning, design and all these things that take time. I would be interested in anything else I have not covered.

I will make one other point. I understand that there are variable ways in which the repayment is calculated. Should there be just one way whereby you pay a fixed sum irrespective of the value of the caravan? I think the sum in question is €20 a week, and the Chair can correct me if necessary. They would know beforehand that that is the amount to pay. My understanding is that in a lot of these situations there is the trailer as well as a permanent building and you have to pay rent on the permanent building. That has to be taken into account. Would it be better, rather than dealing with differentials, income assessments and all sorts of other complications, that if you got one, it is a fixed amount and they know beforehand so there is certainty? I am sure the revenue to the county council out of these trailers is neither here nor there in the greater scheme of revenue.

In Labre Park there are utility units for which the community has to pay rent as well as the trailer.

Yes, and that is what we have now on the Tuam Road halting site in Galway. They have a kind of permanent building that is beside the trailer.

My next question relates to Labre Park. Two places in this country that I have seen stick in my mind, and the only place you could compare them to is Soweto.

Many years ago, when I canvassed the Seanad, I went into Southill in Limerick to canvass a vote and I was absolutely appalled by the condition of it. Yet, that does not concern either of the authorities that are present. The other one was Labre Park. I visited Soweto once and it was the nearest thing I could describe to what I saw. That is the way it was.

I was very interested to hear the representatives say they are developing a plan with an approved housing body, AHB. My question is the human question: how long will it take before the people are rehoused in suitable accommodation? I always believe that good accommodation is incredibly important in order for people to have self-respect and also to deal with all sorts of other social issues. What are the steps that are to be followed? How long will it take? What timescale are we talking about? In the meantime, every night and every day people are living in Labre Park. It is very urgent that it and any other equivalent halting site around the country would be dealt with.

Again, if money is the issue, this committee can make recommendations upwards, as well as asking the representatives all the hard questions. While it is our job to ask the hard questions, it is also our job to use the information we get to try to move things along. If the blockages are at a central level, we as Members of the Oireachtas should shift them along.

I would like to compliment the representatives on their idea of the circular economy. Some work has been done in Galway with the Traveller movement. There is a company there that recycles mattresses. A huge amount of work can be done and I am glad to hear that there is an engagement with employment. I will not repeat the questions on the caravan loan scheme, because they are the same for both local authorities. We need a national approach to this.

The representatives gave the figure of 34 applications but said that ten were ineligible. Is that because of arrears? One thing that concerns me is the issue of arrears. In my experience, in some cases they are because the person stopped paying for no reason. In some cases, they are because of Covid and people were paying cash. In some cases, it seems to me that these are reassessments backwards. There might have been a change in household circumstances, such as where somebody moved in without permission. There might also have been a situation where their income may have increased because they got more welfare, etc. I always find it particularly hard regarding that last example, where there are arrears on an account because of welfare increases that were not reported, and the State knows about them. Many people say to me that everyone knew because it was announced that there was €12 more in the pension every week or €12 more in the jobseeker's allowance, etc. I always feel it is hard when people are refused on that ground, particularly if they have entered into an agreement and are sticking to it.

It is interesting to look at what the Revenue Commissioners do. With the Revenue Commissioners, if you have arrears, if you make a deal with them, and if you adhere to the deal to repay the arrears, they will issue a tax clearance certificate. They will not hold you up from doing your business, etc. We need to devise a system to deal with the issue of local authority tenants who are much more vulnerable than most bigger taxpayers who might run into arrears. As I said, in my experience, the issue can arise in a number of ways.

In relation to Galway - maybe I missed this information in the presentation - what is the situation in relation to Bishop’s Field Traveller halting site in lower Salthill? I understand that the lease is up on that. It was overcrowded anyway.

There were more people there than it was designed to accommodate. What is the plan to resolve this issue? If the matter is subject to a court procedure, I withdraw the question. I ask the question subject to there being no legal case.

Reference was made to an issue that is a massive problem in Galway, namely, that of Part X, SACs and SPAs. I do not believe anyone outside Galway has any idea how intrusive this is, not only in rural Connemara, where it is very intrusive and where 80% or 90% of the land is designated, creating all sorts of complications, but also in a fair part of the city. It was said that An Bord Pleanála turned down an application that included 12 Traveller units and social housing. A fair number of Travellers live in standard social housing accommodation. As the delegates and I know, the vast majority of my constituents who are Travellers live in standard housing. We need to follow up on how to deal with this issue and bring about change. How many units were involved in total? Were there 100? I heard somewhere that between the two types of accommodation and accounting for all the social housing, there were 100 units in total. What were An Bord Pleanála’s reasons? I did not read the planning permission refusals although I probably should have, but I heard that in one case the refusal was because there was no bus service or other public transport and that, in the other, it was because it was premature given the lack of infrastructural development. Could Ms Fahy confirm the reasons? There might be a case for us to go to the Minister to issue new guidelines that An Bord Pleanála would have to take into account when making decisions. If the reason for declining permission was related to public transport, I cannot see why An Bord Pleanála did not, in the worst-case scenario, say the accommodation could be provided before public transport was provided. Similarly, regarding the infrastructure-based refusal, I cannot see why planning permission was not given subject to putting infrastructure in place before allocating houses. The delegates might fill us in.

The area covered by Galway City Council is tiny. The council is not like Cork City Council in that it did not get extended. The city–county issue needs to be addressed. I would be interested in hearing the delegates’ thoughts on how this could be done.

Ms Catherine Fahy

I will address the issues Deputy Ó Cuív raised about the caravan loan scheme. Most of the eight caravans are second-hand and would have a lifespan of about eight to ten years. As regards what would be sufficient, it costs about an additional €10,000 for the fire safety and civil works. Possibly, €50,000 would be sufficient for a second-hand mobile home, but a new mobile home would cost up to €80,000, plus the €10,000 for the ancillary works.

How much longer would a new one last?

Ms Catherine Fahy

The new one would probably last 15 to 20 years. I would have to check. We can do that.

It would be good value for money. Ms Fahy is telling me you would nearly get a lifespan-----

Ms Catherine Fahy

You could do the cost-benefit analysis or maths on it.

It is simple mathematics. It is €50,000 versus €90,000.

Ms Catherine Fahy

And double the time.

It is eight years versus 15. It is a simple calculation. When putting in a new one, you would have another €10,000. If you do it the other way, it is €50,000 by two, which is €100,000, because the civil works would have to be done all over again. That is really useful to know because it makes a very strong case for us. Why have a constant need for a scheme when we could do what I am implying, bearing in mind staff time and everything else? This has been very useful.

Ms Elizabeth Fanning

The needs assessment has not been done per se, and it is possibly something we should look at to have an objective standard. Local authorities seem to do this in different ways, so a standard, systematic process across all local authorities would be welcomed.

The repayment is calculated for Galway County Council - and, again, we all do it differently - at €25 per week over ten years. With regard to the ineligible ones, most of it was for rent arrears, but we work with the Traveller families and we gave them time to clear arrears. However, there is probably more room for improvement on that as well.

We also welcome and see the benefit of social enterprises. It came up yesterday at our LTACC so we are going to try and bring about more social enterprises with Traveller families through the LTACC and work with the GTM on that.

There is overcrowding at the Cúl Trá site in Salthill. It is a rolling lease at the moment. The plan is - and we are still working on it - that some of those families will be accommodated at the Circular Road scheme when it is completed by the end of this year.

With regard to the Part 10 planning, there were two social housing developments that included Traveller-specific accommodation, so there were about 70 at Keeraun, and there were about 25 at Headford Road, all of which did not get permission. The mean reason for refusal, I suppose, was peripherality. We did not have the footpaths and we did not have the transportation, although a lot of these places are walking distance away. Half an hour would get you into Eyre Square. The problem is there has been a shift where housing developments are now almost transportation-led. In the past, they used to go hand in hand. You would have the two programmes together but now what we are finding is we really have to have the transportation in before we get the approval. On the Keeraun site, the roads department is undertaking a multimodality report. From that, we hope to go back very soon on the Keeraun one with another planning permission. Again, it will be a Part 10 application to An Bord Pleanála.

On the difficulty between our city and county boundaries, many of our Traveller families have a preference for the county. We find it extremely difficult to purchase properties for them in the county, for many reasons. When we have attempted it, it has not been successful. We would welcome any assistance we can get on this. From a CE and a departmental perspective, we need to work together. I plan on doing that with the county council to come up with some arrangement where if they transferred over to the county council, they would not lose their spot. That does not make sense. Why would you move then? There is a great deal of work to do on that, and we would welcome any assistance on it.

I may have answered everything but the Deputy can come back if I have left something out.

I do not want to delay this but at the moment, when you fill a local authority form in either county or city, there is a question around area of preference. If you are applying to the county council you can put Galway city down, and if you are applying in the city you can put Galway County Council down. However, it is a rare occasion that this is anything more than a mirage. If the hold-up is Dublin, I think it is time we absolutely knocked down that wall.

Ms Elizabeth Fanning

Yes, I agree.

They should either be told that you cannot put down the city if you are in the county and vice versa, or you can and you will be treated equally with everybody else. You can put it down but we, people like politicians, are the ones who are dealing with this. It is very hard to explain to constituents that this is there. You can say it but it is not really ever going to happen, and I think we need to bring clarity to this issue. I would prefer that there was a kind of all-county view taken on this.

Ms Elizabeth Fanning

Yes, we would welcome that.

I think we need it because as I said, the city is too small.

I want to go back to An Bord Pleanála. We want to build houses. We want to house people who are banging the door down in Ms Fanning's office. She has got more people knocking on her door than she has accommodation, and so have we. It seems to me that perfection is becoming the enemy of the good. If those 95 apartments were built, I am sure the three witnesses would be absolutely delighted to be able to say to they 95 families that they are giving them the keys. That would trigger a chain reaction, with 94 more HAP houses available and so on. Does Ms Fanning think, particularly with regard to social housing, that the Minister could issue an instruction, or an instruction could come from the Custom House, to vary this?

Everything stops because transport is not in place and it is a bit of a chicken-and-egg situation. They have built Swords and they have not put in the metro yet. Could the witnesses come back to us on that matter because it would be interesting to see how we resolve this?

Would it be possible for the witnesses to supply a written email to Deputy Ó Cuív to answer his question? I am not being rude. It is just that other members wish to come in and I am aware Dublin City Council would need to answer the question as well.

Ms Elizabeth Fanning

Yes, no problem, Chair.

Ms Denise Doyle

On the queries about carbon loans, we were issued with eight loans from the Department of housing in 2023. We completed an assessment of everyone on our waiting list. We photographed the mobiles they had at the time and, based on the criteria, we split them into two categories between the caravan loan scheme and the emergency grant. We were able to accommodate nine through the emergency grant based on the qualifying criteria, and the eight loans we received in the first round were allocated based on the criteria for the loans. We actually only had four on the waiting list who did not qualify due to arrears. We have retained them on the waiting list for review again in 2024. This has also allowed them to enter into a repayment agreement, which will be well established by the time the new loan scheme is issued this year.

On the lifespan, the €40,000 that is currently in place really is only sufficient for a second-hand mobile. We are finding that, on average, the lifespan of a second-hand mobile is between five and eight years. For the size of the families we have in our jurisdiction, we estimate that the value of the loan would need to be between €80,000 and €120,000 to adequately accommodate their needs. This would include installation fees and the installation of steps for safe access to the mobiles. The provision of the steps is not currently included in the loan amount and it is a significant cost. We have been advised through fire safety that they must be steel steps, so the fabrication costs start at €8,000 upwards, depending on the size. Therefore, we would welcome a full review of the current loan scheme and an extension of the amount available.

We have completed an assessment of needs on two of our sites in respect of mobile homes because we are planning redevelopment on those sites and some families want to retain the mobile homes. We are aware of what is needed on our sites. Unfortunately, as it stands, the current value of the loan is not sufficient for a number of our families as they are larger families.

The view of what constitutes a mobile home needs to be reviewed as well in terms of the guidelines of the loan. A number of our families would be looking more for what is termed to be a chalet rather than a traditional mobile home on wheels, so even the definition of the mobile home should be reviewed.

My colleague will comment on Labre Park.

Mr. Tony Smithers

Ms Doyle oversees our caravan scheme and I concur with what she has said. Also, access is so important for fire safety and for people with mobility issues. Steps are one issue but we must also provide ramps for families who have mobility issues, which is an extra cost in respect of some of the caravans. I am in total agreement with what Ms Doyle said about the costs and lifespan. I will give a quick example. Recently Dublin City Council purchased three homes, so that is bricks and mortar, at a cost of €1.3 million for Traveller families who wish to move on to homes but we could have bought ten permanent homes for the Traveller community who wish to live culturally appropriately. Ten families can be housed or three. The Deputy is right in that it is looking for the increase in supplying permanent homes with a lifespan of between ten and 15 years for the Traveller community.

On Labre Park and the timeframe, a lot of hard work has gone into Labre Park over several years. That is working closely with the residents, most importantly, and working with the advocate groups, BTAP, and working with public representatives down there.

Phase 1 of the improvement works was carried out as an emergency project and was completed at the end of 2021. A full upgrade of drainage, water and electrical connections was completed, along with installation of fire walls and resurfacing of ground works. New and upgraded sanitation units were also provided to families on site. On completion of the works, both the HSE and the Ombudsman for Children attended the site to complete a review of the works. Both agencies were highly complimentary of the Traveller accommodation unit’s immediate response to the issues outlined and the standard of the works completed. That was on the actual works and I will move on to the overall redevelopment. A pilot waste management plan was also implemented on site and each family on site was provided with 1,100 litre bin and a weekly collection service, significantly reducing dumping on that particular site. The Traveller accommodation unit itself was focused on assisting Clúid Housing with the commencement of the redevelopment.

I come to where we are at with the redevelopment and I will put a timeframe into context if that is okay. We have had recent meetings and the Department gave us approval for €16.5 million for the accommodation part but it was €11 million short of dealing with the contaminated land which is also on a flood plain. We regrouped and had a lot of internal meetings with our internal departments and with Clúid. We have revised the plan and are meeting with the Department on 27 February to discuss the plan as it is now. We have three extra Traveller-specific accommodation homes to be included in the new plan. We will remove the flood risk and contaminated costs from the application. These were some of the clarifications needed to be addressed by the Department. The application will now be for 14 new-builds instead of ten and 19 refurbishments with extensions to cater for the families' needs. Two extra will be on the old community centre site, one at where No. 8 is, and we are building an extra large unit to facilitate a medical issue on site. These issues were addressed outside of Labre Park. Therefore, because the extra large one does not have to go there, we can build the extra one on that and we can put an extra home in there for one of the families. On the left-hand side as you enter Labre Park, Dublin City Council will provide 12 properly serviced temporary bays for families who are waiting for the new build to happen, and that is going to happen. What that means is, in accordance with the Department and some of the clarifications, this will allow the phasing of the redevelopment and that co-ordinated approach going forward for the families on site.

At the moment, a soil analysis has been ordered on site. Tier 1 will review the information to make recommendations. Tier 2 will commence if needed on tier 1 assessment, obviously, and an EIAR will also be done in conjunction. This is being done now so it does not delay the timeline to ensure Clúid can submit the report as part of the planning application as we know, as everyone does, that some of the land there is contaminated. Therefore, we are pre-empting that, will have the report done and are not waiting for someone to ask us about it as Clúid prepares for a planning application.

The community centre will obviously be integral and part of the application, but there is a shortfall in the cost regarding the moneys allowed under the approval from the Department. The strategy from DCC and Clúid will be to work closely with the regeneration board and, with all key stakeholders, look at all the strands of funding available to bridge that gap to make sure that vital part of the amenities happens in Labre Park, not just for the residents there but those who have left Labre Park and the greater community in the surrounding area.

The next step is to meet with BTAP on Friday to discuss the revised plan. Then we are meeting with the Department on 27 February to discuss the clarifications and the revised plan. We are going to call a Labre Park board meeting, and then, most importantly of all is to communicate and consult the residents of Labre Park. To answer the Deputy's question on an indicative timeframe and where we are at at the moment, the CAS 2 funding application submission, after meeting with the Department, will be February 2024. We will wait for the Department to come back with a funding decision, it is hoped by April 2024. We will do a Part 8 pre-application with our internal departments running in conjunction with that. We will not have approval from the Department but we will run in conjunction.

It is to be hoped that when the approval comes, the pre-Part 8 will have been done internally. We will pre-empt anything that comes in that regard. We will then go to the Part 8 planning application stage in April 2024. A Part 8 application takes approximately 20 weeks, which will be September 2024. A detailed design will be ready in November 2024. Clúid Housing will apply for CAS 3 funding in December 2024, for which there will hopefully be approval by February 2025. The stage 3 tender will be in February 2025, the CAS 4 funding application will be in April 2025, and CAS 4 funding approval will be in June 2025. With all going according to plan, we hope to start on site in July 2025 for the residents of Labre Park.

In reality, it will be 2026 or 2027. All these things take time. The Department will come back with questions.

The Minister of State, Deputy Ossian Smyth, also has responsibility for waste management. We had him on site on 20 October. In principle, he agreed to give us some money to sort out that issue. I am sure the representatives are aware of that. I should mention that 8 Labre Park has been idle for nearly two years now. I need to move on to the next member, but I will come back to some of the issues with Labre Park.

I thank the representatives from Dublin City Council and Galway City Council who have responsibility for the Traveller community. I thank them for the reports. I will not ask about caravan costs; it will just waste time as it has been clarified. We now know what we have to do in that regard. I will certainly push it, as will the committee.

I will ask Mr. Smithers about Dublin City Council's Traveller accommodation programme, which will come into effect in December 2024 to cover the period from 2025 to 2029. For my information, as I cannot remember, did Dublin City Council zone areas for Traveller-specific accommodation for permanent housing in the development plan? He made the point that there were issues accessing sites that were compromised. He said:

Dublin City Council has taken steps to remedy these issues, including engaging with the Traveller Mediation Service, and it continues to endeavour to deliver the required services to all of our sites.

What other steps did the council take? He referenced just one step.

I have another question on the loans that were given. Mr. Smithers said:

Funding for eight loans was granted to the council in 2023, with funding for an additional two loans made available in December 2023. All have now been allocated to families on our waiting list.

Were those families put, or just replaced, on existing halting sites? The work programme is fine, but has Dublin County Council undertaken any policy on animals, including horses and dogs, etc., on halting sites? I did not hear Mr. Smithers mention that on the Labre Park issue, and there are a number of horses around that site. When the council did the count of Travellers in 2023, "a total of 854 families were identified in the Dublin City Council area on the date of the count" and 52 households were in emergency homeless accommodation. Were transient sites included in that? Are there many unofficial or transient sites in the Dublin City Council area in general?

I did not realise that the LTACC is looking at ways it might support members of the Travelling community to start their own business in the circular economy. I know a man of around 52 years of age who is interested in getting involved in scrap metal.

He needs more information about it so it would be great if Mr. Smithers could pass it on.

There are other questions that I want to ask. It does not appear that Dublin City Council provided any new units of accommodation throughout the course of 2014 to 2018 in the Traveller accommodation programme. Has it been successful in providing new units during its most recent Traveller accommodation programme?

The next question relates to Dublin City Council's projected future need by measuring the number of Traveller children who turn 18 throughout the duration of the TAP. Has Mr. Smithers found that this metric has been useful for Dublin City Council? Will he use the same metric for the next TAP? Does he believe this metric is adequate in the longer term? It is very important that we map what accommodation will be needed in the future for the Travelling community in particular.

What plans does Dublin City Council have for the development of transient sites? I have asked a number of questions. I have not referred to Galway as I do not really know the area that well, but the caravan issue crosses both areas.

Mr. Tony Smithers

I thank Deputy Collins. I will come in on some of the questions and my colleagues will also respond to one or two. We will change over. I hope that is fair enough.

In regard to the development plan and zoning lands, in our development plan we have zoned lands for accommodating social housing. The Traveller accommodation unit in Dublin City Council has written to the senior management in the housing delivery section to ensure that existing Traveller accommodation plans and programmes are incorporated into its housing delivery action plans. As part of our housing delivery programme, the Traveller accommodation unit is looking for Traveller-specific accommodation within those plans.

Mr. Tony Smithers

We do have an animal policy for dogs including banned breeds. That goes across all of our tenancies. We have an animal welfare section that looks after that. That particular section also looks after any complaints about dogs or the welfare of horses. Labre Park was mentioned. There was a huge consultation previously with Clúid Housing in Labre Park. Horses were part of the overall redevelopment. There is the equine centre in the Cherry Orchard area, and other horse projects. We are due to meet the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine with Fingal County Council in the next several weeks on the overall welfare of animals, including horses, particularly in the Dunsink area. That will happen.

I will let Ms Doyle come in on TAP. Nothing was done in the 2014-18 period, which was mentioned. I will let Ms Doyle come back in on the current programme. Progress was made on the TAP from 2019 and then Covid came along. We have re-engaged and we have made progress. I will let Ms Doyle outline the progress we have made on certain sites. I hope that by the end of the year when the TAP ends, we will be on site and building.

In terms of our priorities, process is involved in regard to capital redevelopment projects. We have to look at sites and where people live and make sure they are maintained and upgraded so that people are not living in substandard accommodation. As the senior executive officer over the Traveller accommodation, I know that in all that is done we sometimes have to prioritise our resources and work to make sure some of the sites are up to an acceptable living standard. It might be great to build a nice shiny new house five years down the line, but we have to adapt and realise that people are living in certain conditions here and now. As a local authority we have to address those needs as well, so we do prioritise things at times. I will let Ms Doyle come in on where we are at with the TAP now. I will let Ms Farrell, the senior social worker, from Dublin City Council come in on the count. I hope that is okay for Deputy Collins.

Yes. I thank Mr. Smithers.

Ms Denise Doyle

The loans were issued to people living on our existing sites and our basic service sites. That goes for the emergency grants as well.

We are drafting our new TAP at the moment. The current TAP has been delayed significantly due to Covid. However, some of our priorities in terms of capital works shifted during Covid and we focused on some of our previously unauthorised sites, which are now classified as basic service sites due the works carried during the Covid response. Much of the work that was carried out included upgrades to electrical services and water supply as well as resurfacing of ground works. The works that are now in place will help to facilitate future redevelopments in our new TAP.

Of the capital works projects planned for our current TAP, nine houses are expected to built in Cara Park. We went for stage 2 funding in December 2023, so that is with the Department. We plan to build a further three new homes in Avila Park and hope to have that started on site by the end of the year. We are building one house in Reuben Street and we hope to have a tender package ready to go at the end of March. Again, we hope to be on site this year with that. We have two houses in Camac Park we are in process of procuring a design team for. One of the houses will be a refurbishment, upgraded and extended property, while a new house will be built on the land beside it. Again, we hope to be on site in respect of those two properties towards the end of the year. Future-proofing for the younger generation is an ongoing process. That will be looked at through the needs assessment of our sites.

The LTACC is looking at ways to help Travellers start their own businesses in the circular economy. Could Dublin City Council send the committee information on that?

Mr. Tony Smithers

That is no problem. The Traveller Mediation Service is fantastic, and Mr. Chris McDonagh has been fantastic in his approach. The service is funded by the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth and Justice. We also engage with the families and mediation services and hold meetings with the families. We met with Mr. McDonagh and, most importantly, with advocacy groups. The key stakeholder involved was the service company. In the beginning, it was a slow burner but it has gathered pace and we are starting to make inroads, build that trust and that relationship with families and groups and work towards the end goal, in particular providing new Traveller-specific accommodation on sites and maintaining what we have.

I am delighted that we are moving on. The situation relating to the flood and the contamination is mainly on the left hand side of Labre Park. Is this part of the park going to be kept for bays? It is probably really important that a community centre is there, particularly for after school. I do not see where on the site it could be put. Has any part of the site been allocated to that? Is there any way we could speed up that because this will not start until at least 2026 and people would be living in those conditions for another two years? I know Dublin City Council is doing something positive with it but those families are being asked to live in those conditions for a long time even though they are probably be looking forward to better conditions after that. Is there any way this committee can work with the Minister to speed these things up?

Mr. Tony Smithers

We are always looking at how we can be very proactive and speed up things.

To answer the Deputy's question, on the left-hand side, Dublin City Council will now look to improve the yards and bays for the residents living there. That will incorporate it into the greater scheme of the redevelopment and hopefully make living there much more pleasurable over the next 18 months to two years, when the first build will then commence.

We have done a lot of good work in Labre Park but there is still a lot to do. We have provided some families with new homes. We have also provided people who wish to move on from Labre Park with some fantastic quality homes. I will give the Deputy an example of culturally appropriate housing. We worked very closely with BTAP. We acquired two or three homes close to Labre Park. We worked with the families, BTAP and other people to adapt the houses and to make them culturally appropriate. We even got to a stage where we incorporated a facility to allow a touring caravan to be placed safely within the fire regulations. If the members of those families wish to tour or travel they can do that and still have a place to come home to. We are always listening in our work. We are always guided by the Travelling community on these issues.

I have another bit of good news. I know it was mentioned in connection with Galway. Under the dormant accounts funding we are providing two new play facilities, one on the south side and one on the north side. One will go into Labre Park. We are working with Clúid on where we place the playground so that it will be permanent and we do not have to take it up or remove it. We are working very strategically. The other playground will be placed in St. Dominic's on the north side. We are working very hard. I hope that answers the Deputy's questions.

Could Mr. Smithers reply to the question on the community centre?

Mr. Tony Smithers

To be fair to the Deputy, I will just come in and respond to that question. The community centre is an integral part and we have a position for where it will go. A lot of good work has gone into that. We will work tirelessly to make sure that happens on the site.

Ms Sorcha Farrell

I will answer the Deputy's question on whether homeless families on transient sites were included in the count this year. We did not identify any families on transient sites in the count. We had one family on an unauthorised site, which was roadside.

The homeless figures are not included in the returns to the Department but we have committed to providing the figures to the LTACC on an annual basis because there is a significant number of Traveller families in homeless accommodation in the Dublin region.

The data that are provided by the DRHE give us that point-in-time information which is on the date of the count. A total of 135 households that were accessing emergency accommodation in the Dublin region on 24 November identified as Traveller households. Some 52 of those households on the night were in the Dublin city region. There were 28 single individuals and 24 families. There were 35 adults and 55 children constituting those families. In total, we had 118 individuals accessing emergency accommodation on the night of the count. As I said, those figures are unfortunately not included in the returns, but we do feed the information back to the LTACC.

In the past two years we have had a collective approach to gathering all the information. The Traveller representatives, the Traveller groups, and the TAU provide information on allocations and transfers. There are also the area housing managers and the area offices and then the social workers on our own team. We gather information from as many sources as possible and then we crosscheck all the figures to ensure that there is no double counting, in so far as is possible without breaching GDPR data protection.

Is that okay for Deputy Collins?

Yes, thank you very much, Chair.

We will move swiftly along to Deputy Mitchell.

I apologise but I have to be quick because I have to head into the Chamber as well.

I have a few questions for at Dublin City Council. I am not going to go too much into the caravan loan scheme. It was stated earlier that 18 applications were approved in 2022 and ten in 2023. How many people were not successful? Ms Doyle said there were four in 2023, but I am concerned about the number of people applying for this scheme and the criteria. Do the officials think the criteria are too strict? Why do they think there was a drop in applications in 2023?

My other question is on emergency caravan funding and the criteria for that as well. The officials mentioned fire, flood and storm There are people in my area who have applied for this emergency funding and have not got it, yet their homes are leaking and there are electrical faults.

I will also touch on the delays to maintenance. These seem to a big issue in my area. Has the council a system for assessing these cases? Are there priorities and what is the timeframe? We have people, especially out in Cara Park, who are waiting a number of years for work to done on their homes, so I would like the officials to talk about the maintenance a bit. I am also interested in the development in Cara Park. Has the council got funding for it? When do we expect to be onsite and to see the works completed?

The council's Traveller Accommodation Programme 2019-2024 refers to "... the increased interest of the Traveller Community in accessing standard housing". Has the council undertaken any research into why interest in standard housing has increased? Do the officials think this may be a result of the poor conditions in Traveller-specific accommodation?

I thank the Deputy. I will let Galway City Council come in first if that is okay.

Ms Elizabeth Fanning

We had 34 applicants and ten were ineligible. If we had had more money we would have been able to give a few more to those who were successful. We feel the criteria for the scheme could be looked at. It is mostly down to arrears. Deputy Ó Cuív looked at that as well. There could be more leniency on that, because it has been very successful and brings a lot of positivity to the sites as well. Two of the families were at the LTACC meeting yesterday. They are thrilled with them, so we could look at the criteria and make them a little less strict.

On the emergency side, we only got approval for two this year and two last year. We could have given more if we had more money. Even with the criteria being strict we still did not give as many as we could have. I am not sure we have many applying for the emergency caravan fund at the moment. It is not really relevant to us on Galway City Council.

We have more Travellers looking for normal social housing. We have not done any research into it. I do not think the conditions are getting worse on the halting sites. We are trying to make them better. We are bringing in our culturally-appropriate accommodation. We started with our circular road project, which is the prototype. If that gets off the ground and is successful, which we hope it will be, that might change and people might have a preference for the culturally-appropriate accommodation. We would welcome research on that.

I am not sure I covered everything there, but the committee can come back to me if needed.

I thank Ms Fanning.

Ms Denise Doyle

Regarding the Deputy's queries on the caravan loan scheme, in 2022 we had 20 applicants and we had no quota limit as to how many we could offer.

Eighteen applicants were successful in 2022. The two that were unsuccessful were due to arrears owing.

In terms of the criteria being too strict, certainly in the emergency grant I would say they are. No criteria are set aside for medical or mobility issues, which is seriously hampering our ability to successfully house in culturally appropriate homes people with medical or mobility issues.

There has been no drop in applicants on our end. There were 28 on the waiting list for 2023. We only received eight loans in the first round of offers from the Department. Therefore, eight were filled from the waiting list. As I said earlier, nine were given emergency grants. That was based on our inspection of their current mobile homes. The emergency grant criteria cover storm, fire and flood. Unfortunately, therefore, if there is a leak in a mobile home, that is deemed to be due to wear and tear or the general age of the mobile home. It is not considered to meet the criteria of the emergency grant. The damage has to be done by fire, storm or flood. That has been set out in the circular from the Department.

With regard to delays in maintenance, particularly Cara Park, a lot of the maintenance issues have been addressed through the retrofit pilot programme that was completed at the end of 2023. Regarding delays in maintenance, we fall in line with the tenant handbook, and any maintenance or repair requests that are phoned into us are dealt with, if it is an emergency, within 24 to 48 hours, and, if it is not an emergency, because we have a quicker turnaround than standard housing for our responses to maintenance queries, are dealt with in a far shorter period of time. The period for standard housing when there is a non-emergency is six weeks, and we are far quicker than that.

We applied for stage 2 funding for the Cara Park development in December 2023 and we are awaiting the Department's response on that. We plan and aim to be on site in September 2024. However, we require full vacant possession of the site in order for the works to commence. We are dealing with the occupants of the site at the moment and trying to obtain alternative accommodation for them to facilitate their move from the site. As it stands at the moment, we are still planning to commence works in September of this year. I believe it is a two-year timeframe for completion.

Did Dublin City Council undertake any research into why the interest in standard housing has increased?

Mr. Tony Smithers

It is my understanding that we have not. I can check that. I will get back to the Deputy and I will email her directly. To put it into context, in Dublin City Council there are 107 people from the Traveller community on our list at the moment who are looking for standard housing and they are a priority. In 2023, we housed 21 families in standard housing. We acquired ten homes and four families have moved into those. Another six families will do so, pending refurbishment. To answer the Deputy's question, those families have come to us and are looking for that alternative. Obviously, we address all housing needs and all types of housing. I will personally get back to the Deputy about any reports that have been done on the issue that she raised.

I thank Mr. Smithers. I thank the Chair.

We are a bit short on time. I know the representatives are answering the questions as best as possible. We might get written responses to the committee from Galway City Council and Dublin City Council, if that is okay. I call Deputy Buckley.

I thank the Chair. I note that she has saved the best for last.

No, I am going after you.

I thank Dublin City Council and Galway City Council for coming before the committee. I know their time is precious.

I mention the definition of a mobile home. We discussed looking at modular homes as being better value and having a longer timeframe. What would the witnesses' take on that be? It has to do with the preferences of the Traveller community. While we are on housing and when trailers and all of this is being covered - and I will not rehash that - I was also very interested in the education side of it and apprenticeships and so on for Travellers to try to integrate them into the working community. The witnesses were probably suspicious this morning and were thinking the committee members were here to quiz them and find out all of the bad news and bad points. It is not about that. What we hope to do in this committee is facilitate any council in the country, if we can. That is what we are here for.

It is very important to note, and it has come up over and over again, that the €40,000 is a pittance and one would get nothing for it. Forty grand spent on a second-hand trailer is very bad value for money. I wanted to make that point given that committee members are here. Do not be afraid to approach the committee with questions or queries or to say, "Look, we are thinking of something outside the box. Would it be appropriate?", or whatever. If we can facilitate it, we will.

My main question is on how we assist the witnesses in increasing their capabilities to provide those resources, that is, whatever type of homes they have. I would also ask about apprenticeships, education, which is vital, and home-schooling. How are the witnesses getting on with that? I think Ms Fanning said that we do not hear too often that it is fully functioning, which is great to hear.

I will not say any more than that other than to say I am very interested in this and I would definitely back the witnesses 100% on the fact that you might not even buy a decent second-hand car for €40,000, so it is not good value for money.

I thank the Deputy. Would the witnesses like to come in?

Ms Denise Doyle

The definition of "mobile home" is open to interpretation at the moment. As I said, a lot of our families would be bigger in size and would require a larger unit. We discussed this with the Department of housing and had it out on a site visit to St. Dominic's Park last year and also to Labre Park. The Department has been quite open to considering a review but that unfortunately does not appear to have taken place yet. I hope that when it assesses this year's pilot caravan loan scheme, it will be addressed under that review. It has advised us to look more at modular homes for our new builds and that is something on which we are liaising with our architects' team, to come up with a culturally appropriate design using the modular housing units.

With regard to the apprenticeships, Dublin City Council previously had an apprenticeship programme directed at members of the Traveller community, to get them employed within local authorities as tradespeople. We hope to re-establish that but also to extend it in a way to include possibly a mentoring programme with members of the Traveller community where they are part of the delivery of the education programme. It would encourage attendance and keep the Traveller community involved in the programme. That is what I hope to discuss further with our HR department. I will let Mr. Smithers come in on other queries.

Mr. Tony Smithers

I thank Deputy Buckley. Ms Doyle has covered it very well. I thank the Deputy for his support and any assistance with regard to the education and the apprenticeship pieces. Ms Doyle has summed it up perfectly.

Does the Deputy have any further questions?

I am happy enough with that. I would like to hear about the apprenticeships from Galway City Council.

Ms Elizabeth Fanning

This was mentioned at our local Traveller accommodation consultative committee, LTACC, today. The member on the LTACC from the Traveller community is really keen on this as well, so we will bring this back. We have thought about this before. It is about resources, speaking with HR and getting it off the ground. I can see there will be a lot of obstacles to it but I agree we need to do this.

It is a no-brainer. It is wanted and we need to help provide it, so we will come back to the committee with what help it can bring. We need innovation here. Everybody thinking together on this would be really good. It is great that this is being done through our fully functioning LTACC. Yesterday, it was so positive that we got really positive feedback from members of the Travelling community who are members of the LTACC. We have a very good platform. Our interaction is building relationships, which will help us going forward. We lease out our community centres to the Galway Traveller Movement for after-school activities and that kind of thing, so again we get behind that.

As regards the mobile home versus modular homes, I personally think modular would be better but, again, I am going back to our Circular Road development. While they are not modular, they are chalet-type, fabulous little homes and they are quite big. It speaks to nomadism and to the use of caravans and horses and the outdoor space they need. It really is Traveller specific and appropriate. That is what we hope to continue to do in Galway city after the success of our first one, please God.

That is lovely. I appreciate that. To reiterate, we are here to help. If we can assist in any way, please do come back to us.

Ms Elizabeth Fanning

That is great. I will do. I thank the Deputy.

I thank the Deputy. Again, if there is any follow-up or if Ms Fanning feels she could elaborate on some of her answers, she should feel free to email the committee.

I will start with Dublin City Council. I am 34 years of age. I was born and reared in Labre Park. Since I was a child, we have been talking about the redevelopment of Labre Park. I worked along with Ballyfermot Travellers Action Project and Lorraine McMahon. This was before Mr. Smithers' time. The whole community worked really hard on the redevelopment.

It feels like we have been at Part 8 for more than a decade. Mr. Smithers answered the question very honestly and upfront for Deputy Ó Cuív about when it looks like the redevelopment will go ahead for Labre Park. What does he think the obstacles are going to be? Is it still Part 8? One of the challenges for redevelopment on the site are the trailers where the Berrys live on the left-hand side when you go into the site. We saw in the bad weather that a lot of the people living in trailers in Labre Park were without running water or any facilities.

The council is saying it will be in the next 18 months to two years. To me, the redevelopment of Labre Park will not be going ahead for at least another five to six years. That is from my experience and where the redevelopment is now. For those people living in those trailers, what can the council do in an emergency, as Mr. Smithers said earlier, to make people's lives a little bit easier on site?

A lot of good work has been done in Labre Park in the past 18 months since this committee went out to visit the site. Obviously, the work has begun since then as well. It is the view of many residents in Labre Park that it was pushed out. I live and breathe the site so I probably know about this more so than any other member on the committee.

We have an elderly man and woman who left No. 8 Labre Park. That elderly man and woman were desperate to get back on site and did not want the accommodation they were in. They agreed to swap or whatever to get back into their own home. They were living in that house their whole lives for more than 40 years and actually happen to be next door to me. As I said, that house has lain idle for the past two years.

I do not believe there is any will to refurbish that house and give it to a family. As for the residents on site, apparently the family had to be two years out of the house before they were allowed even to look to get back in. We are talking about an old man and woman of over 70 years of age. That is one issue.

Then there is the maintenance on sites. It is no disrespect to Mr. Smithers personally or to the women here this morning, but the maintenance on site is absolutely not fit for purpose. I know that. I used to live in one of the houses on site. I am in my family home a lot of the time. We are 23 years waiting on a shower. How is that possible? The windows in a lot of the houses in Labre Park have people freezing. My mother died at 48 years of age. She is nearly 24 years dead. In my opinion, that was due - again, I am not holding the council to account or anything - to living conditions. The living conditions that Travellers are expected to live in are absolutely appalling. One of the recommendations from the expert group around accommodation and from this committee is a stand-alone authority for Traveller housing. Do the officials think that is the solution? We are going into our sixth TAP and in each of the previous five the councils have not met their targets, unfortunately. I used to sit on the TAP on Dublin City Council and it is the only committee in the council that county councillors are not paid to take part in. That is absolutely ridiculous as well. If councillors are given a wage for other committees they should also be given a wage for being part of the Traveller committee.

Around the caravan loan schemes, the utility units are not fit for purpose. My uncle Paddy Berry - I have his permission to use his name - just got the unit refurbished. He and his wife said the unit came back as bad as it went. That is not future-proofing accommodation. That is not future-proofing houses. We see radiators on site. I speak about this constantly at this committee. It is brilliant for me to have Dublin City Council in so I can speak about the experience on site. We have had contractors in. The officials are right. I know of contractors who have been threatened on site, unfortunately. One time there was a ten-year-old child who said something to a contractor and he ended up in a mental health hospital. He was critically ill, really. I am being a little bit sarcastic because it was a ten-year-old child who said something to the repair worker on site. He has since left Dublin City Council, but those are the kinds of issues. When we talk about threats, we are talking in a lot of cases about a comment, say, by a young child walking up. I often see young children on site walking up to and speaking to and having a conversation with gardaí, social workers and whoever comes on site. It is the curiosity. I remember one time there was something said to a member of the council by a ten-year-old child and he was weeks off sick because of it.

I am sorry that happened to him. It happens on sites and it can happen anywhere. It was a very minor comment that was made. That is the kind of threat we are talking about, to be clear for the sake of the committee.

I know in Labre Park the dumping has been dealt with really well. I do not think the council wants the community to police themselves. I know that for years and years Labre Park had no choice but to police itself, and that was expected of us as a community.

How can we improve the standard of the repairs and make people's lives a little bit easier? This does not just apply to Labre Park but to the likes of St. Margaret's as well. I have been in St. Margaret's. Deputy Ó Cuív would say Labre Park is a bad site as in how it looks. However, my heart is broken when I go to St. Margaret's halting site. I sometimes go out there as my twin sister works with Exchange House in St. Margaret's halting site. I see the living conditions that people have in St. Margaret's. If you think Labre Park is bad, I would absolutely say that St. Margaret's is worse. To see children having to live in these conditions in Ireland in 2024 is absolutely appalling. There is so much more I believe local authorities can do, including in Galway and Cork. There is so much more our State and our Government can do.

As Deputy Buckley said, we want to help but we also want answers and, for us as a committee, that accountability. Accountability is so important. Three years ago a number of children who lived in a halting site in Dublin ended up in hospital with hepatitis. That should not happen in this country. Again, no accountability was taken for what happened. We are talking about sewerage, and people and the GP who looked after some of the kids believe the hepatitis came from dirty water from the pipes. That should not happen to children on sites, not in the Ireland of 2024.

I know the witnesses are doing their best as local authorities, but how can we all do better? When something is good, we can always do better and we must aim to do better. A few weeks ago during the bad weather people in Labre Park had no facilities. Again, this is Ireland in 2024.

If I think Labre Park is bad, it breaks my heart to going out to St. Margaret's. When it comes to social housing for the Traveller community and Traveller-specific accommodation we must stop expecting Travellers to police Travellers and say they are okay, they are in there and they will be fine. Intimidation and bullying goes on in sites, like in any other social area in Dublin, Galway or wherever it may be. We have to stop expecting Travellers to police themselves.

A question for Galway City Council is how we can do better. What can we do to support the witnesses? Would they be in favour of Travellers having stand-alone accommodation for Travellers to lead on themselves in that regard?

Ms Elizabeth Fanning

On what we can do, we acknowledge what has happened. There have been improvements but more needs to be done. We need to be more innovative. One of the things we are doing in Galway City Council is our Traveller-specific estate management strategy that we are finalising at the moment. It is the first in the country, so it is work in progress. It will have to be tried and tested. It may not even be successful but it is a really good thing we are doing. It is based on tenant participation, trust, pride of place, community development and most importantly, on relationship building. Improvements will be made if we can all work together, respect each other more and have more interaction between the Traveller community and the settled community. We are working to bring about these improvements. The LTACC has really helped with this. It is being driven through it. This will not be the answer to everything and it may have to be tweaked, but it is a start. It is something new and different and I hope it will be successful.

Regarding the maintenance, we have a pretty good record on reactive maintenance. Even yesterday, at our LTACC, we had two of our six halting sites represented at the meeting. They did note improvements in reaction times to maintenance issues. That notwithstanding, we still have issues. Along with our reactive maintenance we also have planned programmes across all of our sites. This includes things like window and door replacement, heating system upgrades, roof repairs, damp remediation and kitchen upgrades. We inspect our smoke and heat alarms, fire blankets, sewers and storm drains annually and do road repairs. We are trying to improve both our planned and our reactive maintenance on all our halting sites. It is very resource-dependent. We are gaining resources, but sometimes as soon as we gain resources internally, we lose them just as quickly. We hope to improve on that.

We also maintain all the welfare units on the halting sites. I agree that we need to make improvements and we need to perhaps think about things differently and bring about innovation. With the likes of the GTM and all the other stakeholders and the Traveller families themselves who are represented on the committees, I think we can do so. We acknowledge there is a lot of work ahead but there is a lot of positivity coming down the line as well.

Thank you. Just to say, Tony, it is not attacking anyone personally. This was going on long before your time and I am sure the same applies for Galway as well. It is okay and it gives me the voice to use this platform I have here to say that there are still big issues. While everything looks good on paper, I am expressing my experience of still living on site and dealing with the community of Labre Park.

Mr. Tony Smithers

That was very well put. The Cathaoirleach speaks so passionately about this. I have been involved in Ballyfermot for a long time and I remember the Cathaoirleach and her family. I am back here again and I am as passionate to make sure we make those improvements for people's lives and we make huge improvements in Labre Park. There have been many false dawns on Labre Park, with people waiting on redevelopment and living in substandard conditions, but there have been vast improvements. As I said, there is more to do. On some of the individual issues such as the older couple and the shower that the Cathaoirleach has raised, I will take them up personally and speak to her directly on those.

I do not envisage any challenges regarding Part 8. We work very well with the community and the councillors. The councillors are strong advocates for Labre Park. I commend all the councillors in that ward on the work they do.

Some of them sit on our LTACC, so I do not envisage such challenges. I envisage that we will push the timeframe. I forgot to mention that, most importantly, Dublin City Council, which is very committed, is appointing a project manager to Labre Park to oversee the timeframe, make sure there are no blockages and foresee what is going to happen. The manager will always be proactive to ensure we deliver on what we have said we will deliver.

I respectfully disagree on one point. We do not force people from their homes. The good thing now is that with the new, revised plan, we are providing extra accommodation in Labre Park. We can maybe accommodate other families to come back to Labre Park. We would have to look at that and work closely with BTAP on that.

What can we do with the left-hand side of Labre Park?

Mr. Tony Smithers

Dublin City Council is committed to improving conditions on the left-hand side. Service bays will be installed there as a temporary measure to make sure people living on the left-hand side have the proper facilities and services to live comfortably until the redevelopment happens. We are committed to that. Along with the project manager and the team, I will oversee that.

What is the timeframe on that happening?

Mr. Tony Smithers

I intend to start the process imminently, when I discuss it with the key stakeholders. The residents are key to this along with BTAP and the Labre Park regeneration board.

Brilliant. That is great.

Mr. Tony Smithers

We have done lots of work at St. Margaret's. We have provided lots of new homes there. People were living in substandard accommodation. We have done lots of work on yards and services and provided new sanitation units. I want to apologise for the sanitation unit that was sent to Labre Park. I agree with the Cathaoirleach that it was not fit for purpose but that will never happen again. I give my guarantee on that. I will let Ms Doyle come in on some of the other matters.

I thank Mr. Smithers.

Ms Denise Doyle

I will comment on some of the maintenance issues that have been raised. I agree that the standard of maintenance has not always been what it should be. This is particularly relevant on foot of the issues in Labre Park with the outbreak of hepatitis A. Senior management took a very dim view of that. We have taken steps to address those issues in a more comprehensive way. Many of the problems are to do with the nature and age of the sites. There has been a lot of catch-up work along the way, which is not sufficient. We have extended our remit in terms of contractors. We have brought in new contractors to address many of the issues. That has vastly improved the condition of our sites. The feedback from the tenants has backed that up. There has been a reduction in the number of complaints received on a daily basis by our section. We are in the process of drafting our new maintenance framework for the next five years. We will be extending that to incorporate additional contractors so we will not be tied to one contractor going forward. I think that is essential in terms of expanding and improving our maintenance delivery.

Changing the contractor was a very positive move by Dublin City Council. I want to acknowledge that I see changes and progress for some people. It is critically important that we acknowledge the good that is being done by the council. That was a really positive change. I acknowledge that due to Covid, things have been slow but I see positive changes in Labre Park with the maintenance. That is not to say it is ideal, but it is more positive than it was even this time last year.

Ms Denise Doyle

Yes, it is definitely a step in the right direction. We will progress this through the redevelopment. We have spent €8.9 million on maintenance over the last three years so we are putting an awful lot of funding into maintenance and repair.

Last year, we conducted a site-by-site audit of our maintenance issues that are outstanding and they are currently being addressed site by site. We are starting with St. Joseph's and that commenced in January. Outstanding maintenance issues will be addressed and we will move on to the next site and do the same.

The waste management plan will help to alleviate much of the illegal dumping on the sites. Labre Park was our pilot waste management project and that has been extremely successful, as has been noted. We will be extending that to the rest of our sites this year. We are currently procuring the waste management service and hope to have it up and running in the next quarter. That will be across all of our sites. Every family will get a 1,100 l bin and there will be weekly collections. We will be progressing to a recycling service as well, which will also be weekly. That is in process but to begin with, it will be just the 1,100 l bins. An educational programme will be rolled out for the tenants on how to use the bins effectively. When the recycling aspect is brought in, that will be part of that.

Regarding threats to staff, while I appreciate the Cathaoirleach's comments, I cannot comment on that particular incident. The threats that some of our staff have received have been extremely significant. It is more than just a comment from a child. I had a staff member who was physically assaulted on one of our sites and required medical care afterwards. They are significant threats. It is an ongoing issue and is not just confined to one site. It is something we are trying to deal with in a constructive way and through the Traveller Mediation Service, which has helped significantly. I do not have an answer as to how we resolve this. Much of it is borne out of frustration about conditions on site and I fully acknowledge and recognise that. However, I have to look after the safety of my staff and their well-being.

It is not acceptable-----

Ms Denise Doyle

It is not acceptable.

-----for any person to be-----

Ms Denise Doyle

. Our staff are going out to do a job. They want to do it well and they do it respectfully.

I want to put that on record to make it clear. A lot of the time, we talk about threats. As I recalled, in one case it involved a child, unfortunately. They are not all critical threats. This is not me condoning it. It is not because people are from the Traveller community that these threats or incidents have happened. It is because of the people themselves. It has nothing to do with identity, really, so I want to be clear on that.

Ms Denise Doyle

Local authority staff are threatened in standard housing as well. It is not just located in Traveller communities and I am in no way suggesting that. It is something we are facing, however. We have to be realistic. It is a constant thing. As manager, I have to look after the staff as well as the tenants. It is not every tenant. The vast majority of them are absolutely lovely to deal with and we have no issues but we will always work constructively to try to forge better relationships. Maintenance is a key part of that.

As with any other community, it involves calling An Garda Síochána. That kind of behaviour is genuinely not acceptable. No matter who you are or where you are from, it is not acceptable to attack a worker. There is no real explanation for it. I appreciate Ms Doyle saying it is due to frustration. People do not have the right to assault a person who is trying to support them, no matter what. That is really important. My advice would be to deal with those kind of situations as you would deal with them when they involve people from all walks of life. As Ms Doyle said, it is important that we look after the staff as well. Obviously, we do not condone this behaviour. We will do whatever we can as a committee to stop it from happening in any area. I know it happens in all areas that contain social housing. It can happen in the majority of them anyway. I thank the witnesses.

Mr. Tony Smithers

I apologise but I left one thing out and I like to be thorough. I am sorry for holding the Cathaoirleach up. She is right in what she is saying. Traveller families should not have to police their own estates or where they live. That is why we have incorporated a specific project estate officer to deal with antisocial behaviour, liaise with the community and implement DCC's policies in this regard.

That person is a dedicated staff member who deals with those issues. Traveller families can speak in confidentiality. They can come to us through a third party if they have permission to do that and we will take those complaints and investigate those matters. If they are of a bigger criminal nature, we will then ticktack with the relevant bodies on those. Is that fair?

Yes. It is really important we treat the Traveller community as we would any other community because violence is not part of Traveller culture. That is the same for domestic violence, antisocial behaviour, etc. They are not part of our culture and our way of life. Looking at media outlets today, I was kind of thinking "What the hell?", but it is always a minority within a minority group, unfortunately. Those issues have to be dealt with too. As I said, there can be intimidation and bullying on sites just as there would be in a lot of areas in Dublin. It is up to the agencies to deal with those the same way they would deal with any other community. It is really important we do that.

There have been more positives than negatives this morning. We have some powerful recommendations for our report and suggestions as well. If our witnesses do not want to say anything else, we thank them as a committee for coming in and giving their time and their honesty to us as well. We need that honesty as a committee, as well as communication and to try to work together. It is not about attacks and us against them, because that has been happening for too long. It is really about coming together and working for the common good. Again, I thank the witnesses so much for coming to our committee. The information has been very helpful to us and will support our report.

The organisations invited to appear at our next public meeting are yet to confirm. We are waiting to hear from the law and mediation organisation in Coolock and FLAC.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.39 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 7 March 2024.
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