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Joint Committee on Public Service Oversight and Petitions debate -
Wednesday, 25 Jun 2014

Decisions on Public Petitions Received

The joint committee is now in public session and we will record our decisions. The first petition for reconsideration today is Petition No. P00027/13 from Mr. Damon Matthew Wise, national secretary-CEO (voluntary) of the National Board, directors, shadow directors and executive committee. It was submitted by a corporate body. The petitioner is seeking to raise proposals to allow for legislative consultation and statutory powers to be afforded to the newly founded National Disability Council of Ireland when new legislation is being prepared which will have an impact on people with disabilities.

The secretariat made contact with the petitioner in the first instance seeking clarification on the issues he wished to have addressed by the joint committee, as this was unclear from the information provided within the petition. The petitioner was contacted by phone initially where the secretariat discussed what the petitioner was seeking to achieve and following that discussion he agreed that he would gather further information and come back to the secretariat with clarification. Despite further contact by letter and by telephone, no information has been received. The decision of our committee is to deem the petition inadmissible as no previous action has been taken. However, under the committee, we may wish to refer the issues. It is proposed that the petition be closed because we have not received the document but the petitioner has the right to submit the relevant documentation at a future date if he wishes to do so. That is agreed.

Petition No. P0005/14 is from Mr. James John Collins on the treatment of prisoners in Irish prisons. Our committee has deliberated on this and we deem the petition inadmissible under Standing Order 165C(1)(g) which refers to a petition that "is frivolous, vexatious or otherwise constitutes an abuse of the petitions system".

We have agreed that. The matter is closed.

Petition No. P0006/14 is from Ms Christine O'Brien. The petitioner is seeking an examination of the conduct of the Child and Family Agency, formerly the HSE, in terms of allegedly unqualified subcontractors and director of advocacy services. This is an individual case between a mother and the HSE in relation to the complaints process after the welfare of her children came into question. The petitioner is questioning the qualifications of the staff working on her case, the procedures and protocols followed by the HSE, and she is also making claims of false reports being produced by HSE staff.

As this is an individual case between the HSE and the petitioner, Standing Orders do not allow us to deal with the matter. However, it is proposed that we write to the Ombudsman advising the office of the advice we have given to the petitioner. The Ombudsman might wish to examine the case. Therefore, we must deem the petition to be inadmissible. However, the secretariat notes that this week the report on the Review of Adequacy for HSE Children and Family Services 2012 was laid in the Library. Given that there are 113 pages in the review, it was agreed that the clerk would prepare a briefing for the members with a view towards examining whether there may be a public oversight issue within this area.

I support the recommendation that we consider whether there is an oversight issue, not least because wearing the committee's other hat, issues arise in terms of the tardiness of some of the HSE's responses to the Ombudsman over the years. I do not suggest for a moment that is relevant in this case but tardiness in the HSE's response might arise again, and if that is the case, I would agree that we should examine the possibility of there being an oversight issue that extends beyond the case of the individual in question, which is clearly an unfortunate one as otherwise the petitioner would not have written to us.

That is agreed. We will close the petition because it is inadmissible and we will make the Ombudsman aware of the case. Following that, we have more work to do in examining the general area.

Petition No. P00010/14 is from Mr. Colm Murphy and 12 supporting petitioners seeking regulation of the legal profession. The petitioner is calling for the manner in which the Law Society treats all solicitors to be fair, equitable and transparent. He feels that the current form of self-regulation does not meet the desires of the public or the profession. Deputy Healy-Rae wishes to comment.

This is a very sound petition. I am disappointed that the initial recommendation is to deem the petition inadmissible because no previous action had been taken. I propose that we refer it to the Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality to examine the matter in the context of the Legal Services Regulation Bill. My belief is that the Bill that is going through the Oireachtas will not cover the type of petition before us. It would have been preferable for us to have dealt with the matter further. In the event that is not possible, I propose that the matter would go for consideration to the Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality.

I appreciate the Deputy's concern about the matter being dismissed. However, we have had other petitions before the committee in which a decision was made not to deal with them on the basis that there had not been any prior engagement with another body in order to seek redress or explanation. The decision is based on the committee’s Standing Orders. I understand that if a petitioner has not taken any other action and the matter is not taken up, there is an option for him or her to come back to the committee following an attempt to seek redress in another forum. The petitioner in question did not do that. It is important to remind anyone who is interested in sending a petition to us that the Standing Orders oblige us to ask people what other action they have taken. In the case in question, no other action had been taken. It is not the case that the petition was dismissed because the committee did not consider it to be valid or because the content of it was not important. We all agree that it is important.

The general theme of regulation of legal services is being dealt with in the Legal Services Regulation Bill. The petitioner is concerned that the legislation will not address the issues he has raised. What is being asked is that the Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality, which is expert in the area and has been engaging with the Bill for some time, would examine the petition in detail and see whether issues are raised in it that are not addressed in the Bill. If it is considered that is the case, the committee would make representations to the Minister to consider further amendments ahead of Report Stage. That is essentially what we envisage in that regard.

Could I confirm the Stage the Bill is on?

The Bill is approaching Report Stage.

There is time for amendment.

The Bill is running behind schedule. We understand it will be quite a while before Report Stage is taken in the Dáil. If the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality and Defence believes that the issues raised, which it will examine in detail, are not addressed, it will notify the Minister to consider tabling an amendment on Report Stage. That is agreed.

Petition No. P00011/14 is from Mr. Martin Morris. He is seeking an investigation of medical treatment in Waterford Regional Hospital, the Medical Centre in Kilkenny, Cork University Hospital and also of the Medical Council of Ireland. The committee has agreed the petition is inadmissible under Standing Orders 165B(1) and 165C(h) in that it relates to an individual case. It is the role of the Ombudsman or the office of the relevant sectoral ombudsman to examine individual cases. The committee's job is to look at policy gaps in the public service, consider criticism and the need for change among other issues. We cannot deal with individual cases and therefore the petition is deemed inadmissible.

Petition No. P00016/14 is from Mr. Finn McCool. He is requesting legislation to include particular songs in the Eurovision contest. This petition is deemed inadmissible under Standing Order 165C(1)(g), which states that a petition is admissible unless it is frivolous, vexatious or otherwise constitutes an abuse of the petitions system. We have closed down the petition as we believe it fits within that category.

But we do accept the entertainment value of the petition.

Yes. The petitioner has had some fun with the petition.

We are not so po-faced that we cannot see that.

We are not qualified, as the committee probably lacks in musical expertise. I do think the song which was referred to is a great song.

It is an award-winning song.

Are we allowed to make private contact with the petitioner?

No, but we wish the petitioner well.

We certainly do. We look forward to seeing him perform at the Eurovision.

The petitioner had lots of fun with his engagement but we cannot engage with it as I am sure he would appreciate.

Petition No P0008/14 is from Mr. Desmond Fitzgerald. He is seeking greater access for the public to Leinster House. The Joint Sub-committee on Public Petitions considered this petition at its meeting on 9 April 2014. Arising from its deliberations the committee agreed, as a preliminary step, to forward the petition to the Dáil Committee on Procedure and Privileges, CPP, for its consideration and to report back. A response has been received from the Dáil CPP on 17 June 2014 which states that at its meeting on 11 June 2014, the Dáil CPP considered the letter from the petitions committee and decided to request the Superintendent to prepare a proposal to achieve the changes proposed. The Dáil CPP has also informed the clerk of Seanad Éireann's CPP of this proposal.

As the proposals from the petition have been agreed in principle by the Dáil CPP and the request has been forwarded to the Superintendent of the Houses requesting that he draw up proposals to facilitate implementing the petitioner’s suggestion, the hope is that the petition’s objective has been achieved. We will keep the petition open until we are satisfied that the objectives have been achieved. We will wait to hear back from the Superintendent.

I commend this petition because I believe we are blessed with staff at Leinster House who make every effort to make people welcome on both sitting days and non-sitting days. The idea of having tours of Leinster House is great, in particular for the younger schoolchildren who come. We should find a way to make the building more open, even on a limited basis so that a member of the public could gain access should he or she be in Dublin, have time to spare or just want to see what the legislative Chambers look like. We could, for example, make 30 places a day available. I am sure the Superintendent will come up with something. I commend the petition on its practical approach and understanding that what we should be about is being as open as we possibly can.

I trust that we will be able to find a suitable response and that the petition would remain open until that happens.

This petition is an example of why the work we do is important and why the development of a public petitions process at the heart of the Oireachtas is beneficial. This citizen has brought his experience to bear to put forward his view and change has happened in these Houses as a result of him submitting his petition. That is encouraging. It is an example to encourage citizens to engage with this process and it shows that change can happen as a result. This is the initiative of one person who put forward his view, the petition was then brought through the system and the system will now change as a result of it. Well done to the petitioner. The petition remains open and we will be seeking to steer this one home.

Petition No. P00014/14 is entitled "Challenge of Dangerous Irish Law Making" from Ms Evelyn Flynn. The petitioner is asking that the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine examine whether national legislation SI 357 of 2011 is a proper and true reflection and transposition of (a) the requirements of the authorities of a member state under Article 2, Decision 92/353/EEC, in relation to criteria for approval or recognition of organisations or associations, and (b) the requirements of a member state from 1 July 2009 in relation to an equine identification method laid down under Commission Regulation 504/2008. She has also sent representations to the Chief State Solicitor's office as ICS Limited was also an approved State agency under Article 4(3) of CR 504/2008. The petitioner has agreed to withdraw her petition as she is seeking further clarification from the European Commission and once she is in receipt of this information, she may resubmit a petition. Our committee formally acknowledges that the petition is withdrawn and confirmation of this fact will be sent to the petitioner. That concludes matters.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.52 p.m. until 4 p.m. on Wednesday, 2 July 2014.
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