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JOINT COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL AND FAMILY AFFAIRS debate -
Thursday, 15 Sep 2005

Carers’ Association of Ireland: Presentation.

I am pleased to welcome Mr. Frank Goodwin, chairperson, and Mr. Enda Egan, chief executive officer, of the Carers' Association of Ireland, who are here to make a presentation regarding the association's policy document, Towards a Family Carers' Strategy. We are delighted to see them here. The association's submission on a family carers' strategy has been circulated to members.

Members are reminded of the parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the House or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members who wish to make a declaration regarding any matter discussed may do so now or at the beginning of their contribution. They are also reminded that, if there is a possibility of there being a conflict of interest, they should make a declaration of interest either now or at the start of their contribution. I draw witnesses' attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege, but that same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. While it is generally accepted that witnesses would have qualified privilege, the committee is not able to guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it.

Mr. Enda Egan

I thank the joint committee for inviting us and giving us the opportunity to speak about our national carers' strategy, a proposal we are putting forward to the Government. I am very much aware that all the committee members know the issues pertaining to family carers. It must be complimented on its report, which was published the year before last, and on its position. Any Government would do very well to take that report and implement it. If that were done, I am 100% certain we would not be sitting here today. However, such is life.

The strategy document is called, Towards a Family Carers' Strategy. This means we have set out our position regarding the contents of such a strategy. We propose to the Government that it should be seriously considered and implemented as part of the next national agreement, which is due to be concluded around the end of October. The reason is that, according to the 2002 census of population, there are 150,000 family carers, 50,000 of whom work full-time around the clock. They are not in a position to take up work of a paid nature outside the home because of caring commitments within it. They are not able to leave the home unless there is someone else there to continue their role while they are gone. There are 50,000 such people, and they are our priority concern. CSO figures show that 3 million hours per week are worked by the 150,000 family carers. That is worth repeating. It is 3 million hours of input by family carers into what is, as far as we are concerned, a primary care element of the health services. Unfortunately, we still have some way to go to get that recognised by the various Departments concerned, particularly the Department of Health and Children.

I will take members through our proposal regarding a family carers' strategy. We have examined the strategy under six key headings which cover such matters as comprehensive support for family carers and enhancing their support and well-being, since carers' health is extremely important. We have looked at an adequate and fair system of remuneration for carers and at education and training. That issue is extremely important, and we would like to see it addressed in the next national agreement. Work-life balance policies for carers relate to the 100,000 family carers providing care in the home and working outside it at the same time. We will go into this in more detail under that heading, but it is also worth noting that many of those so-called part-time family carers listed in the census are probably working a 40-hour week at home and the same in paid employment. The last point is a system that provides up-to-date and accurate information for carers.

Any research done has identified comprehensive services and supports as the No. 1 priority for approximately half of family carers. The main thing is that a comprehensive needs assessment must be introduced for family carers that covers the person being cared for but that has a crucial focus on the carer too. The carer has needs that are, by and large, ignored by the State. I speak of such things as respite. It is very important that the family carer gets regular breaks. It is not fair that the burden of care should be placed on one family member, and most Deputies and Senators will be aware from their constituency work that when a care issue falls upon a family, particularly the care of an older person, there may be no faster way to scatter its members. Not many people will buy into it, and in many cases one person provides the care, so that respite, particularly regular and short breaks, is key. Regular long-term respite breaks in places such as day care centres and nursing homes are also extremely important. That is what the needs assessment must consider, but there are also the social aspects of carers' lives. In many cases, the carer is in the home around the clock.

On average, an older person needs care for between three and five years. Caring for a child with a disability is a long-term commitment. What tends to happen is that the social life of those who provide care is left to one side, allowing depression to creep in after a number of years. People may become very angry at being left in the situation. That issue should be acknowledged and addressed as a fundamental part of service delivery. If a person is happy in his or her role as a carer and is reasonably well looked after, his or her health does not tend to suffer as much as it will suffer if he or she is the only person carrying out this role.

There is evidence particularly in reports from the United States of the collapse of the carer's health when the role of caring finishes. Among the reasons for this is that the person's immune system tends to keep illnesses at bay when under pressure but once the pressure is released the immune system relaxes and is open to invasion by illness. Counselling is very important. A person takes on the role of carer in response to a pressure point, becoming a carer overnight, for example for an older person coming out of hospital, a child born with a disability or being disabled as a result of an accident. A typical case is where a mother, living alone, suffered a stroke and is now due to be released from hospital. The hospital will ask who will provide the care and the family must now decide who will take on this role as the mother will no longer be able to live alone. This can give rise to tensions among family members. We need a service that will look at the mental health of the carer after he or she becomes a carer and when his or her caring role finishes. Counselling is very significant in dealing with the emotions at those points.

We would like to see carer support groups being supported from central funds for their major role in the mental health of the family carer and providing opportunities for carers to trade information and talk about service delivery in the different Health Service Executive areas. One finds very often that two carers may have different individuals dealing with a case in the same HSE area and one person could end up very happy with the level of service while the other person may not find the person dealing with his or her case as sympathetic or helpful. The carers' support group allows people to air those types of issues. Feedback from staff in the Health Service Executive area is often to the effect that their names spread all over the place.

One of the major issues relating to the carer's health and well-being is that training is provided on creating an awareness of the role of carer; the types of support that should be available for carers and the provision of appropriate equipment from the local Health Service Executive. There are major inconsistencies in the different Health Service Executive areas. If one is caring for an older person, the service in certain geographical areas is more supportive. The same applies when one is looking after a child with a disability One example is where a carer needs a hoist — in certain areas one will have it the following day and in other places nobody knows when it will be made available. This is a very important issue for carers because the life of a carer is very much easier if he or she has the appropriate equipment at home. This service should be available to everybody.

What we are trying to achieve is a road map on the national strategy to caring where Government states openly where it sees family care as part of the overall health services in three to five years from now. A nurse working in the health services would get one free health check per year. We believe that family carers should have a medical card, entitling them to one comprehensive health check free of charge per year. The State must appreciate and value the role of the carer in the provision of health services. That is a fundamental cornerstone of the services to which family carers should be entitled.

Action must be taken to publicise and raise awareness in the community and among those providing State services for family carers. This is one of the few issues that affects everybody. Reports show that almost everybody without exception will either be cared for or will provide care at some point in his or her life. The State must convey this message to the general public in order that it will feed into a better support network for family carers. From our experience in the 17 resource centres around the country, one often sees issues coming up between family members which are not conducive to sharing the burden of care.

Another issue is an adequate and fair system of remuneration for carers. Given the diversity of the circumstances of those providing care, for example, those in receipt of State payments such as widows on State pensions or lone parents in receipt of the lone parent allowance, the existing payments should be topped up by the carer's allowance in full or in part. For those combining a caring role with part-time work, tax credits could be the vehicle to provide additional income. However, for those providing full-time family care our position is that the carer should be treated in the same way as any worker doing a similar job in the health service. Everybody is familiar with the role of the home help, for which the starting scale is €10.41 per hour. Full-time family carers who are doing this job 24-7 in their own homes and are not in a position to take up outside employment should be in receipt of a payment similar to what a person employed by the health board would get for a similar job. They should also enjoy the rights and entitlements that workers have such as sick pay, leave with pay and so on. It is a complex and complicated issue when one considers the nuts and bolts of the various models of providing that kind of service. We have also considered models provided in other countries. The northern Scandinavian countries have good ideas whereby the family carer can elect to work for the local health board, working as a home help but doing that job within his or her own home. This system seems to work well.

With regard to education and training for family carers, the key point is that each family carer should be trained in the skills of care provision. The Carer's Association of Ireland provides a home training course accredited by the City and Guilds of London Institute. We train approximately 500 family carers each year, totalling approximately 2,500 in the past five years. That process needs to be supported as part of a strategic plan, with specific budgets set aside to ensure it takes place. Such training provides great benefits by helping people to care for themselves.

An interesting point is that the new health and safety legislation which came into force recently deals with the position of care workers entering people's homes and associated risk assessments which must be carried out in a patient's home. For example, if a respite worker is sent into a family carer's home a risk assessment must be carried out. However, while family carers are in that situation all the time, no one seems overly concerned about the risks that might exist for them. Therefore, skills training is required. This should cover aspects like health and safety, general nutrition and a package that ensures the carer's own health is protected for as long as possible.

One of the issues raised on our national careline and in our national centres is what will happen when a person's role as a family carer ends, for example, when a mother dies or if the burden gets too much and a mother must be put in a nursing home or an alternative source of care found. At that stage the carer begins to focus on what will happen to him or her when change occurs. Carers ask: "What will I do when my caring role is finished?" or "Will I return to employment?" The average length of care for an older person is approximately three to five years. Carers are out of the work environment for that period and their skills may become obsolete. There is much concern about how they will manage in the future. A specific strategic focus on this issue is needed. We would like to see it bought into by the Department of Education and Science, the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, trade unions and employers, which should come together to consider how the issue can be addressed. This is certainly one of the top four or five issues for carers, particularly for carers of older people. Under United Kingdom legislation, all state agencies must be trained on issues pertaining to family carers and their rights and entitlements. We would like to see a similar situation develop for State agencies here.

My next point refers to work-life balance policies that would support carers, particularly those working on a part-time basis in a paid job while providing family care. The term "work-life balance" has drifted into use in the past five or six years. However, while it is easily said, in practice it raises many issues, particularly for employers. The Carers Leave Act, which deals with carers' benefit, is not bad legislation and was not a bad place from which to start. However, it must be reconsidered with a view to making it more flexible because it does not address the reality of providing care. The Carers Leave Act deals with blocks of care and blocks of time off work. However, given that two people may be willing to share the provision of care while also holding down jobs, the legislation should be amended to make that possible. We must try to develop legislation that makes it easier for carers to provide care and work at the same time, as well as putting options in place whereby care can be shared, whether between spouses, siblings or otherwise.

A further aspect we would like to have addressed within a national strategy concerns information. Family caring in Ireland is not often discussed. It can be a taboo issue among family members, for example, with regard to who will look after mother and father when the time comes. For that reason, while there seems to be no need to have information on the subject until it is needed, when it is needed, people do not know how to source it — a point applicable to information on many issues. The Carers Association would like particular measures to be taken in this regard. Resources should be invested in the national careline to put it on at least a 12 hour basis. A website run by the UK Department of Health is well worth examining. It is one of the best websites I have encountered with regard to providing information for family carers and is a model Ireland should consider. All necessary information is available on the site, which has direct links to information officers in Departments, who respond immediately to queries and take bookings from carers for sessions within various types of chatroom. A similar site here is a must. The costs, which are largely once-off, would be insignificant in terms of the overall budgets of various Departments. According to the census of population, approximately 60,000 family carers have access to the Internet — close to half of the family carers in Ireland. Therefore, a website would be a cheap way of moving information quickly to family carers.

Social welfare officers carry out income assessments with family carers with regard to the carer's allowance. We would like the role of these officers to be broadened in order that they would also provide information to family carers. They are often the first point of contact carers might have with any information service but the system is not being utilised. It would only be a matter of providing a few leaflets to help carers understand what is available in terms of entitlements and rights for carers, and voluntary organisations that can help them. Many organisations exist to help family carers but service is sporadic and not pulled together within one sphere. The Citizens Information Centres are doing a very good job and should have increased funding invested in order that they can expand their family care services.

That is a brief overview of what we would like included in the strategy. Currently, family carers input 3 million hours into the health service. We are concerned this service is firmly nestled under the auspices of the Department of Social and Family Affairs given its responsibility for the carer's allowance and believe the Department of Health and Children should take a firmer role in this area. Family caring needs to be viewed as a fundamental, integral part of our health services. The removal of 3 million hours per week from the health service would result in an escalation of the problem. We need to develop a strategy in this area.

The Minister for Finance referred in his budget speech last year to the work being done in the area of disability, in particular through the Disability Bill and stated that long-term strategic planning would lead to consistent services for people with disabilities. We need to introduce a similar plan for family carers and to clearly state the position in which we would like family carers to be five years from now and to identify the steps needed to get there. Obviously, finance plays a part in everything. We appreciate enormous resources would be required to back up such a plan. However, if we state openly what we wish to do, we can fight the battle for resources at a later date. The State must state clearly how this is to be done and should value the role of carers to a greater degree than is currently the case.

When one compares the cost of caring for a person in an institutional setting as against taking care of him or her at home the savings are in excess of €2 billion per year. The input from the Department into family care is running at approximately €220 million, leaving a great deal of scope for change. The issue is one of choice in terms of where the Government wishes to put its resources and how it values family carers within the overall health service. The Department of Health and Children would prefer to leave the matter in the hands of the Department of Social and Family Affairs for as long as possible. While the Department of Social and Family Affairs is doing a good job family caring is part of the health service and needs to be recognised as such. That is an issue which a carer strategy would address.

I welcome Mr. Goodwin and Mr. Egan to the meeting and compliment them on their presentation which was one of the best I have heard from any group during the past eight years. It was well thought out and well presented leaving it difficult for any of us to disagree with anything said.

The need for a comprehensive strategy which brings together the Departments of Health and Children and Social and Family Affairs is self-evident. A cost benefit analysis shows that family carers provide 3 million hours at a rate of €10 an hour amounting to €30 million. The cost to the State of providing acute services in lieu of that service would be €3 billion. One can see straightaway the massive savings to the State not taking into account the human dimension involved. While we are speaking in the main about carers we must all take account of those being cared for. Again, it is self-evident that most people prefer to be taken care of in their home environs where they feel safe and comfortable.

The Carers' Association of Ireland has made an extremely good case in support of a carer's strategy. I have a number of questions for the delegation. Mention was made of the role of young carers, an issue which resonates somewhat with me. While family carers are mainly adults taking care of elderly people, often a child is required to care for a disabled or ill relative while also attending school or college. Perhaps the delegation would elaborate on that issue and tell the joint committee the number of children it has encountered in such situations. What can be done to assist such children? Many adults may receive supports for caring and so on. What is the situation for a secondary school child studying for his or her leaving certificate while at the same time caring for a sick or elderly relative at home? How widespread is this?

The delegates also mentioned the need for the Department of Health and Children to take a more proactive role in this area. Would they agree there is a need for a form of overarching body, perhaps a carers' interdepartmental committee, to bring together the Departments of Health and Children and Social and Family Affairs? Is there merit in such a proposal? How, in the association's view, would a carers' strategy be implemented? I agree there is a need for more information in this area and that information is power and freedom. When passing through a town recently I stopped off at a particular Department to obtain some information brochures. The brochures I needed were not readily available and I had to queue at a counter to get them. I was then asked why I wanted them and replied that I was a Deputy and needed them for my office. I later noticed the brochures I received were out of date. It is important that the information people require is readily available in social welfare offices and I call on the relevant Minister to ensure people are able to obtain up-to-date leaflets and so on without having to ask for them. Many of the leaflets currently available are out of date and there is no excuse for this.

The association stated the Carers Leave Act should be updated to provide for more flexible working hours and so on. I am not sure if the association has details on what part of that Act need to be changed in that regard. Perhaps it could forward its proposals to the joint committee for consideration.

I again compliment the association on its excellent presentation. I agree with what was said about access to the Internet. It was stated that of the 150,000 family carers in the system only 60,000 have access to the Internet leaving many others with a need for training in that regard. The association also referred to the importance of addressing the needs of carers and of providing counselling for them. Perhaps the delegation will say if there is currently in place a counselling service for carers. The point about the health of the carer suffering when the caring role finishes as a result of the removal of stress and so on was an interesting one. It was mentioned that often the carer becomes in need of care at such times. I have had experience in that regard as I am sure have many of my colleagues. I know of a woman who took care of her sister for 21 years and who shortly after the death of her sister also died. That proves the point made.

I agree that family carers should receive a free health check. The issue of smart homes was mentioned. I take it that refers to the installation of modern technology and so on. Perhaps the association would provide the joint committee with examples in that regard. Many of us would agree with the need for change to the one payment rule operated by the Department of Social and Family Affairs. A person should be paid for the work he or she does. We all want a day's pay for a day's work and the same should apply in this situation.

I compliment the Carers' Association of Ireland, the work it does and the presentation made. The committee will do what it can to support the association.

Mr. Frank Goodwin

There is no statistical information to indicate the number of young carers. We only have anecdotal evidence and no one seems to have real information. It is an area which must be researched. Regarding the issue of education, young carers are missing out on school because they are kept home to look after relatives. Whether this occurs systematically or sporadically, it still disrupts their schooling.

The young carers we have encountered range in age from nine years to teenagers. This is a formative part of a child's life cycle and they miss out on a some very important components such as mixing with friends, social activities and pursuing sports and other interests. They are deprived of this socialisation process and thrown into an adult role. More than any other person providing care, the young person takes on the worry regarding their relative and what they are going through. What may appear to be a big crisis in one household might not be so in reality. However, it appears so because it happens when they have their schoolbags on their back and are on their way out the door. Having to cancel their plans acts as a distraction, disrupts children's education and worries them.

A young carer may provide care for somebody who is bedridden or has great difficulty getting around in their present condition because he or she has a serious illness or disability. They may be caring for a person with an addiction to alcohol or drugs or somebody suffering from a mental health problem, such as depression. There is a lot of physical, heavy labour involved in providing the necessary level of care. This is another area of concern.

These issues will shape a young person's life, especially if the situation persists for a number of years. This also has repercussions on all levels for their future life, whereby they may leave school semi-literate or lacking in social skills which they would have gained through mixing with their peer group. We feel this is a relatively neglected area and must be urgently researched and addressed.

Schools, particularly school counsellors or those who take a particular interest, have knowledge, anecdotal evidence and an educated guesstimate as to the pupils who are missing days or showing up half asleep as a result of this situation and losing out on the benefits of school even when they do attend.

Mr. Egan

I do not have much more to add. We must identify the issue of child carers. A very prominent radio programme is currently looking to do a piece on child carers. Although we know they exist and can locate and identify them, they do not wish to come forward for obvious reasons. We tried to raise the issue as best we could last year and brought over a group from Scotland. There are 15 paid co-ordinators of services for child carers in Glasgow, whereas we only have four care co-ordinators working in the Health Service Executive. In the case of Glasgow, they have penetrated the education system and engaged with young carers at that level, pulling them into various groups. They are doing excellent work. We need to research the issue and decide on the type of services required.

The Department of Social and Family Affairs is doing a very good job in the administration of the carer's allowance. Once the assessment is done and the person is deemed entitled he or she gets the allowance. By and large, the process runs very smoothly. On the other hand, the Department of Health and Children and the Health Service Executive have kept the issue at arm's length and hope to leave it that way. This needs to change. The issue is part of our health services, not part of the social welfare services, and should be integrated accordingly. A task force should be put in place to co-ordinate the implementation of the strategy. One of the ten initiatives under Sustaining Progress related to the broad issue of care and was to be handled by the Department of the Taoiseach. That or the Department of Health and Children would not be a bad place to start.

The Department of Health and Children and the Health Service Executive need to take more responsibility for the issue. The comments of the new CEO of the HSE were reasonably comforting in that it is one of the main priorities along with accident and emergency services. On saying that, the issue is not as prioritised as it should be on the scale of importance in the Department of Health and Children or the HSE.

Mr. Goodwin

I took early retirement from Dublin City Council and was involved in the area of homelessness for more than five years. The initiative taken at central Government level by a cross-departmental committee was very effective. At local level, the Dublin authorities formed a partnership in conjunction with the voluntary bodies. Many services were clearly identified and delivered on the ground. It was much easier to have the back-up of central Government whereby Departments were not writing to one another and keeping each other at arm's length. They were sitting around a table and agreeing on a strategy. In that way, when we made a submission looking for resources, they knew what we were talking about, assessed our request very quickly, were able to deliver and great progress was made. I would like to see the same drive and initiative behind this strategy.

I also welcome the delegation, whose submission was top class. We cannot forget the excellent presentations from care workers 12 months ago, which I have not forgotten, some of which were quite emotional. They relayed the same information to the committee and it will remain with me for quite some time.

We must pay tribute to those who carry out voluntary work on a seven day, 24-hour basis. People roster themselves and provide their services free of charge. They should be acknowledged and supported. One finds that where there is a large and willing family, work can be shared out and lessened for each person.

The question of respite is something to which we cannot pay enough attention as far as relatives caring for their loved ones is concerned. As to whether a relative may be brought to a nursing home for a respite bed, a certain percentage of beds in nursing homes should be set aside for respite care only. Too often, once a carer gets a relation into a nursing home, he or she is left there. If the carers were guaranteed that they could have X amount of respite each year on a calendar basis, they would be more willing to take the relative back home. This area could pay significant dividends. Another issue arises when a relative goes away for a weekend, as to whether someone is sent to deliver respite care in the home. These are two different types of respite care. We would see fewer relatives dying after having cared for their loved ones, because then they would have experienced a little bit of freedom. If such people have constantly cared for a person for a number of years — a period of 21 years was mentioned — they do not know what has happened and their reason for living has gone. In most cases, perhaps, such people have missed out on what life had to offer for them in terms of a job or similar opportunities. We should seriously examine the possibility of setting aside a certain percentage of beds in nursing homes to give such relief to people providing care on a whole-time basis.

Another related issue concerns the carers' health. The creation of awareness in respect of supports, equipment and similar matters has been discussed, as has the inconsistent attitude among health boards. A massive inconsistency exists in this respect in terms of the provision of commodes, hoists or whatever. These inconsistencies must be addressed. We now have a Health Service Executive and should have some form of consistency. It is tragic that although we know what is required, there is a tendency to send a team of people to establish whether it is needed in order that it can be justified on paper. Too much emphasis is placed on sending highly qualified people to ascertain whether someone needs a raised commode or whatever and we should move beyond that. We also have inconsistencies in terms of medical cards and quite a number of other matters. I would welcome an annual medical check as it is necessary for someone's health.

While people can be educated and trained, if the equipment is not provided the training is no good. People can be made aware of health and safety issues as can be seen in hospitals, where one does not lift patients on one's own, as two people are needed. Even with health and safety awareness, usually there are not two people in the home to perform this kind of lifting. No matter what training is given, it is no good if one does not give carers other supports to allow them to act safely. In the health services, quite a number of nurses have bad backs, which they have acquired over a number of years. This may be another possible timebomb, rather like the Army deafness issue. As many nurses who have been trained to lift have bad backs, one can imagine what is happening to the care workers.

I wish to make some more brief points. The question of accurate information has been discussed. However, when the discussion moved to another aspect of information, the witnesses placed much emphasis on websites and stated that 60,000 carers had access to them. The inference was that they used websites. I doubt if many carers are using websites. Many people in day jobs use websites on a daily basis and tend to forget that people who provide a front line, hands-on type of service are not the type who will use the Internet to see what entitlements are due to them. The traditional method for most of these people is to provide them with an information pack and that is how they should be made aware of their entitlements. If 60,000 carers have Internet access, we already assume that half do not have access to information. These people do not go to Citizens Information Centres either. They need a guiding hand to take them through the mire of regulations to let them know their entitlements and how to avoid affecting their other rights. Such people exist and this should be examined. Information is an important factor here.

Sometimes, people who care for relatives convert a downstairs room, as well as adding a toilet and a wash basin. They must go through the full planning rigours to do so. While I accept that one cannot simply stick on bits to the side of a house, there should be a fast-track system for this type of planning application. In many cases, planning applications take three months to process. In this instance, people are trying to provide for a relative they have taken from hospital. It could be someone in his or her 80s or 90s. The carers know they could provide that care in a downstairs bedroom, if they could install an adjacent toilet or a wash hand basin, etc. This must be addressed urgently. The county councils should allow people to build these facilities on a much faster basis. People are told to make their applications, send in a set of plans and ascertain if there are any planning objectors. Three or six months may elapse and in some cases, the relative might not have very long to live. In some cases, the relative might have decided to come home to die. I have seen this. They want their dignity. In some cases, they do not want to use a commode. The relatives are willing to finance the alternations, in full or in part. I ask that this be examined and these are issues which must be addressed.

The submission before the joint committee refers to a family care strategy and places a fantastic emphasis on the elderly. However, people with disabled children form another group. Their major concern and worry is what will happen to their children when they pass on. They are concerned about the type of institution or home to which such children might go. In particular, the news they have heard recently in the media about institutions and the level of care they provide has not all been good. I must balance this by stating that in the main, a fantastic level of care is provided in most institutions. However, this is their major concern. It would be useful if someone could address that issue and state that if and when one passes on, one's child will be cared for in a particular place. In other words, one tries to discuss where the child will be sent to. Although he or she may be still referred to as a child, I am talking about someone who may be 40 or 50 years old. If we could address this issue, it would give people peace of mind.

Mr. Goodwin

The Deputy is quite correct. When focusing on the elderly, we can forget that some of the carers are themselves becoming elderly, have adult children and have deep worries about them and their future. Equally, one has young parents with children who are born with serious disabilities, illnesses or handicaps. They set out in life to get married and have a healthy family and suddenly find their child is born with huge limitations, which is a terrible shock to them. Obviously, as they try to adjust to this, they seek the best help and advice they can find to carry out that role. However, at the end of the day, they are left within the home to carry out the caring role. Hence, I associate myself with the Deputy's remarks in emphasising that there are carers right across the spectrum of age groups and they do not simply look after elderly people.

As for the Deputy's comments on respite care, I worked with one family which happened to be an elderly woman who looked after her elderly brother, who was in a wheelchair. Her 80 year old neighbour next used to come in to help her when the brother was out of the wheelchair around the flat. They were quite happy and content to do so because in that particular case, her brother had respite care for two full days a week. They came and collected him early in the morning and brought him home in the evening and he was happy with that level of respite care, as was the carer. In addition, she was also provided with two to three weeks per year, where she could receive a solid block of relief, which worked out very well. Obviously, that is the exception and not the rule. We need to see a proper level of respite care put in place throughout the country as a standard.

Mr. Egan

Mr. Goodwin has covered most of the points raised. As far as the question of the 60,000 family carers with Internet access is concerned, that figure came from the last census of population. It is more than likely that it is the children who are using the Internet in the home and the parents may not be using it. The issue of training in the use of the Internet needs to be examined. It is likely that older people who are providing care do not use the Internet. It is something we need to do so that we have it and people can get used to it. As the population ages, more people will be able to use the Internet. The safest and best way of getting information out is through books or leaflets which are handed over and are clear, accurate and precise.

I will not repeat much of what has been said, although I agree with much of it. I welcome Mr. Goodwin and Mr. Egan and, in particular, pay tribute to Mr. Egan who mentioned the word synopsis. There is so much material in the synopsis in the document that this committee must look at it and see how to proceed. I can say on behalf of everyone here that the issue of carers has been close to all our hearts and there has been very little disagreement in producing and presenting our reports and submitting them to the Minister or whoever is responsible.

I agree that an interdepartmental task force should be set up because we have the Departments of Social and Family Affairs, Health and Children and Enterprise, Trade and Employment dealing with this area, which was referred to in the presentation. I would not have thought of much of the material before us, such as child carers at home and school disruption. The entire issue of carers is relatively new since the State recognised carers and provided them with a monetary benefit, which we had to fight hard for during the years as we did with the respite care grant. The Carers' Association of Ireland is developing that for us, which is certainly beneficial.

Mr. Egan spoke about people in the workforce and whether there should be reduced hours. I know a woman who is looking after her aunt and also works 11.5 hours a week. This is work rather than a scheme or a training course. She is now being threatened with the loss of her grant. This is the kind of thing which we must continue to be aware of and highlight. Many of the cases and the anomalies within the system that we raised were removed by the Department of Social and Family Affairs when it became aware of them. This has happened during the years and we must be fair to the Department. Nevertheless, there are problems, many of which have been highlighted by Mr. Goodwin and Mr. Egan. It is unnecessary to repeat the points that have been made, but this document will give us an opportunity in our future meetings to see how we go forward and make further presentations to the relevant Departments about improving the lives and needs of carers and the people they care for.

The point was again made about what happens when people and their loved ones go to their eternal reward. Are they going to nursing homes? They have been out of the system for possibly ten to 15 years. Where do they go from here? This is a new challenge for all of us. The presentation we heard today was excellent and I am learning from it. I am glad I heard it and hope we can move the agenda forward as a result of what has been said.

Deputy Wallace echoed much of our feelings on the matter.

I thank the representatives for their excellent presentation. The work that carers do is deeply unrecognised. The committee and, in particular, the Carers' Association of Ireland are attempting today to improve the situation of carers' because they are doing us and the State an enormous favour. Without doubt, the health service would be considerably worse if we did not have carers caring for people in the home, whether they are people with severe disabilities or our elderly population. We would have many more people in our hospitals if we did not have the wonderful carers. This is unrecognised. Therefore, I fully support the proposals put forward by Mr. Goodwin and Mr. Egan for improving the financial position of carers so we can look after and support them and help them to keep caring for their loved ones at home.

The homemaker's scheme is good but very narrow in that it only dates back to 1994 for people who choose to give up work to stay at home to look after a child or a person with a disability. Do Mr. Goodwin and Mr. Egan agree this scheme should be improved by making it retrospective? The homemaker's scheme and arrangements for carers should be made retrospective because if a person gives up his or her paid employment to stay at home to care for someone, his or her pension could be affected when he or she becomes old if his or her work outside the workplace is not recognised. Perhaps Mr. Goodwin and Mr. Egan could tell me position regarding people who give up work and stay at home to care for someone for many years.

As Deputy Connolly noted, local authorities have an enormous part to play in how we support carers. He made a very good point regarding planning. The other aspect is the disabled person's housing grant, which is totally inadequate and should be addressed in order that people who want to keep their elderly relatives or relatives with disabilities at home are enabled to pay for the necessary extension to the home. All of us are very aware of how inadequate is that grant system. With regard to local authority housing, I know a family with a child with severe disabilities which necessitate much equipment to support him in the home, yet who live in a one bedroom house, which was initially built for a single person. We now have a mother, father and one child living in a very poky house. The council will not accept that the family needs a larger house but says that it will wait for another few years to see how the child gets on. Local authorities must be drawn into this and look at how best we can support people in the home. I will not repeat what other speakers have said but I would like to get comments about the two points I made.

Mr. Egan

The Carers' Association of Ireland examined tax credits and the homemaker's scheme last year within the context of the pre-budget submission. We felt the basis of the scheme is acceptable but it needs to be expanded and applied to family carers. Something can be done for carers in paid employment. I know tax credits are being examined in terms of child care. We would like to see people paying less tax if they have a caring situation and tax credits being shared between spouses and family members who are caring. Currently, a carer can sign on for the contributions which, I think, are full contributions because of the pension issue but I think the scheme only goes back to 1996. Therefore, people who were caring before that date are excluded.

We have the nucleus of the ideas for some of these type of things but they need to be expanded in such a way that they make an impact because the homemaker's scheme does not really make an impact.

The comments concerning local authorities were interesting. There are some interesting observations on what happens in the United Kingdom where local authorities have a different remit. Each local authority in the United Kingdom has a carer strategy and some have one for family carers and another specifically for children as carers. Local authorities in Ireland have a different brief but the HSE should have a carer strategy in place. This point could be forwarded, through this document, and having the strategy introduced at national level would provide the opportunity for dissemination at a later date. In the United Kingdom there are two or three politicians with a personal vested interest in this through their family experiences and these individuals have pushed for needs assessment in legislation and for strategies from local councils and health services. There is not the same political will in Ireland.

We published a report in November 2003 and made 15 recommendations. The report was comprehensive and prepared by members of this committee without outside agencies or consultants. It was based on almost 100 submissions — including oral submissions — some of which were heart rending. Deputy Connolly referred to some today and they were emotional and traumatic not just for the people involved but also for the members who received the submissions.

I have a long-term interest in this area. As a society, we have received caring on the cheap for the past four or five decades. We have adopted a skinflint attitude to caring and we must undermine this ethos and challenge the idea that someone out there will care for these people. Carers groups are saving the State approximately €2 billion if one compares it to residential costs. The primary finding to emerge from the report was that those being cared for want to remain within the home environment. There is no doubt about that because it was the fundamental finding of the report. The submissions received are available for examination by the public.

We must reorient policy because people in their home environment are happier and more content. People want to die in their own homes. The health of both elderly and young people deteriorated to the extent that the carers were worse off than those for whom they were caring.

I will give one example from the submissions received. Politicians are often criticised and people will claim that we are on holidays for a long time but we worked in our own way and during the period when we received submissions it was intense. The wife of a man with a low paid job qualified for the carer's allowance, and received income from the man's job. Without being well off they were able to meet commitments. The husband died and the wife lost his income but received State support in the form of widow's pension. At the most vulnerable time this woman, who was approximately 30 years old, lost the carer's allowance at a time when it was critical. As she did not qualify for the household benefit package, we crushed her at the most vital time.

Deputy Wallace brought a similar case to the attention of the House and all members of the committee recommended that this widow be given 50% of the carer's allowance. The main issue concerning carers is recognition. I wish to compliment the Carers' Association of Ireland for articulating the needs of carers but these have fallen between the stools of the Department of Health and Children and the Department of Social and Family Affairs. This is why the association's call for a strategy is very important.

I introduced a carers' needs and assessment Bill because I believed it was the right thing to do. It was complementary to the Disability Act and there is now a structure in place. In order to complete the circle we must go an extra furlong rather than an extra mile. At times we look for major projects on which to spend money but I believe we should begin with human beings. We should forget about projects that display our prowess in some particular area because care for the elderly or the disabled is the greatest issue facing our people, our Government and our society. As Mr. Egan will be aware, a domestic refuse waiver scheme must be considered.

Inconsistencies abound in this area. We should address this matter equitably by assessing, as with the nursing home subvention, the means of the person being cared for rather than the household income. Let us examine the primary medical certificate and the six-point assessment used in determining eligibility for these. This mechanism is far too narrow and fails to take into account the adults or children with intellectual disabilities where a need exists for a special harness or car seat. It also fails to take account of applicants with the use of one arm. We measure things in strict terms and yet we cannot see the wood from the trees. These are all safety issues and a review of the medical criteria should be undertaken.

People who have been denied a primary medical certificate can appeal to the disabled drivers board in Dún Laoghaire. It can take a considerable period and one might be obliged to drive, with carers or parents in tow and possibly from isolated parts of the country, to attend such hearings. Why not decentralise this appeals process? Much catching up needs to done.

As Mr. Egan will know, I have been involved in this issue since I was in my 20s and feel our failures in this area are indicative of our individualism coming to the fore. We should instead take a community approach. All Governments, including those involving my party, have failed on this. The ethos of caring and reaching out to people in need should underpin the philosophy of Irish society, not the feeling of personal satisfaction. My personal philosophy is I hope I will in the future have a place and a person to care for me. If I have to pay a few extra cent in tax to ensure that this is achieved, I am prepared to do so even if everyone else is not.

It will cost money and nobody should be fooled into believing otherwise. However, it is money that should be allocated and invested. The money should be found if it is required. This issue will not trouble the wealthy but rather ordinary people who are already struggling. This sums up everyone's case.

I have three minor points to make. I assure the Chairman that I will look after him. I am happy that I was here for the presentation, which was very informative. We have a long way to go. Many people do not have access to modern technology and it will be some time before large numbers of them will have such access or understand such technology. What happened to Deputy Stanton, who sought information and received out of date brochures, is a sad reflection on everyone.

Local authorities should not have as much input as they do at present. Taking the example of a couple in my constituency, the husband, who is 83 years old, has cancer. His wife is 83 years old and they have a daughter aged 39 years. Neither the father nor mother is able to go up stairs and there is much paperwork involved in applying for assistance to construct a room and bathroom, which would make them comfortable in their final years. Their daughter's privacy was intruded upon in these applications and if she received more money than she had specified, any assistance would have been taken away. This is a sad situation and I would like to be present when such a state of affairs is eliminated.

The relevant agencies, etc., should be getting involved with this issue. Our elderly are our first teachers and there is an obligation to look after them until they die. No stone should be left unturned in doing so. There are many issues about which I am not happy but I would be particularly saddened if community care, where a person might call into neighbours for a chat, died out. It is diminishing. There must be a disconnection between the understanding of what a carer is and a community care visit. There can be a barrier where a person might not want to intrude on a carer's "patch". There is a lack of understanding with this particular concept.

Mr. Egan

It is Government policy that everybody should be cared for in their own homes for as long as possible. Unfortunately, the rhetoric is not necessarily backed up by practicalities on the ground to make this happen or to even facilitate it. The strategy under discussion is about helping this process.

We agree with the Chairman's comments on the cost involved and the fact that somebody must pay for it. The money must come from somewhere. We had a report by Professor Eamon O'Shea on nursing home subvention and the Mercer report, commissioned by the Department of Social and Family Affairs, which examined the long-term financial costs of care. There is a high level officials' group investigating the issue across a number of Departments, including the Department of the Taoiseach, the Department of Health and Children, the Department of Social and Family Affairs and others. This report is due back by the end of this month and hopefully it will give us more information.

Some proposals were made in the Mercer report as to how money covering the cost would be generated. We supported the proposal for either a 3% or 5% increase on employees' PRSI and a similar increase on employers' PRSI to generate the budget to pay for care. Ultimately, the money has to come from somewhere. We hope that progress can be made on this quite soon. If that issue is sorted out, perhaps one could delude oneself that the rest may fall into place thereafter. However, at least the groundwork would be laid.

I thank the committee for having us before it and the Chairman for making the committee available to us. This committee has done Trojan work with regard to its published report. There is no other report that states in clear practical terms what needs to be done. The Chairman has a strong vested interest in this issue and has championed carers' issues all along at every available opportunity. We hope that our work and that of other organisations throughout the country, and specifically the work of this committee, can have a long and lasting impact for family carers in practical terms. Ultimately, making life easier for these people is all that counts. If any Government was to take the report that this joint committee published at the end of 2003 and implement its findings, we would not be before the committee today and we might not have a role as an organisation. If the implementation of the report is our aim, at least it is worthwhile. On behalf of family carers and the Carers' Association of Ireland, I thank the committee, and I hope all our work will pay dividends sooner rather than later.

I thank Mr. Egan, Mr. Goodwin and their colleagues for a useful discourse on the various issues. Members of the joint committee have shown their interest in the same issues through their contributions and questioning of the delegates on the issues. That is an ongoing trait of the committee which we will make sure continues. The committee will take a positive attitude to the points regarding a national strategy. The points are well made and have been well received. I thank the delegation. The committee will be open to ongoing discussion and contact with the association in the future.

The joint committee went into private session at 12.50 p.m. and adjourned at 12.55 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Thursday, 22 September 2005.

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