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JOINT COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL AND FAMILY AFFAIRS debate -
Tuesday, 11 Dec 2007

Post-Budget Analysis: Discussion with CORI and Combat Poverty Agency.

I welcome Fr. Seán Healy and Sr. Brigid Reynolds, directors of the Conference of Religious of Ireland. I ask them to make a short post-budget analysis. Members may then ask questions.

I draw attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Fr. Seán Healy

We are happy to respond to the Chairman's invitation to come here today. We have circulated two documents, one of which is a three page summary of the comments we will make. We have also given each person a copy of our 20 page analysis and critique of the budget.

There are mixed messages in the budget for 2008. The budget honoured the Government's commitment on benchmarking the lowest social welfare payment. That was very welcome, as were a number of other initiatives. However, overall, the budget failed to maintain the momentum built over the last three budgets in addressing poverty and social exclusion. While the proportion of the population at risk of poverty fell by 2.4% as a result of the budgets for 2005 and 2006 — we predict it will fall further as a result of the budget for 2007 — we believe this momentum will not be maintained following the budget for 2008. The numbers published the week before the budget by the Central Statistics Office showed that for 2005 and 2006 the number of those at risk of poverty had fallen by 2.4%. We confidently predict that the percentage will fall again for 2007 when the numbers are calculated late next year. However, as a result of the budget for 2008, we believe there will be no reduction in the risk of poverty level.

For us, the most important feature of the budget was the increase of €12 per week in the lowest social welfare rate for a single person, which maintains the payment at 30% of gross average industrial earnings. That was the target we set and we welcome its achievement.

Almost one third, 30%, of all households at risk of poverty are headed by a person with a job. They are the working poor. More than one half of all households at risk of poverty are headed by a person outside the labour force. They are not unemployed, rather they are older people, people who are ill or have a disability and people in caring roles. To tackle poverty effectively, one must tackle these groups, namely, the working poor, households headed by a person with a job but at risk of poverty and households completely dependant on welfare payments. These groups account for more than 80% of those at risk of poverty.

Momentum has been lost as a result of the budget's failure to address the working poor or increase the qualifying adult social welfare rate to a sum equal to 100% of the claimant's rate, except in the case of the contributory old age pension where some progress has been made. The budget has also failed to meet targets in tackling child poverty. All of this leads to a loss of momentum.

On a more positive note, the social housing targets outlined in Towards 2016 have been met. The standard of housing has a major impact on the quality of life of families and the overall housing package of €2.5 billion is most welcome. In particular, we welcome the commitment to honour the promise to provide 9,000 new social housing units in 2008 as provided for in Towards 2016. This will have a positive impact in addressing needs in this area.

We welcome the continued roll-out of the rental accommodation scheme which has received an additional €24 million and the allocation of an additional €26 million under the loans and capital scheme for voluntary and co-operative housing. However, we have concerns in respect of the budget's failure to deliver on social partnership commitments in respect of primary care teams. The availability of healthcare affects the lives of all families. One of the most regrettable and unacceptable failures of the budget for 2008 is its failure to honour the commitment contained in the partnership agreement, Towards 2016, to create 300 primary care teams by the end of 2008. Some 100 teams were to be created in 2006, 2007 and 2008. However, the budget makes provision for only 200 primary care teams. We consider this decision to be fundamentally flawed. Primary care teams are important because they draw together all healthcare professionals, including general practitioners, physiotherapists, community nurses and so on. The failure to provide funding for the remaining 100 teams is unacceptable.

On a positive note, as a direct result of the budget's tax and welfare measures, a single person on the lowest social welfare rate will benefit by €12 per week, while a person earning €100,000 per annum will benefit by a lesser amount. For the first time, a person on welfare payments received more in the budget than a person earning €100,000. Lest people get carried away by this, I will qualify matters for them. The person earning €100,000 per annum will receive pay increases during 2008 and as such will gain a great deal more overall than the person on welfare payments. However, in the budget a person on such payments did better than the person earning €100,000 per annum.

The €546 million package of personal income tax reductions is, from our perspective, very positive when compared to the €980 million allocated for the welfare package and other support services. We acknowledge this redistribution.

I wish to return to the aforementioned person in receipt of welfare payments versus the person earning €100,000 per annum. If one focuses on the person in receipt of approximately €15,000 per annum, he or she has gained nothing in the budget. This is because that person is already earning only small money and the tax bill is not as big as the tax credit. Therefore, the person pays no tax. The tax credit goes up but the person is not paying tax. For the better off, an increase in tax credits means a little more money in the pocket because he or she pays less tax. One cannot reduce the tax bill of a person who does not pay tax.

The way to deal with this problem is to make tax credits refundable. The tax system should be changed slightly so that the balance of the credit to which the person is entitled is paid to him or her. This approach, which we have been proposing for some time, is now supported by the Irish Congress of Trade Unions and was part of its pre-budget submission. It is unfortunate that the issue of the working poor is not given greater priority and that the only people in the country who do not benefit at all from the budget are among the working poor.

The moves towards producing the carbon report are very welcome. So too are the changes on vehicle registration tax, motor tax and the other environmental tax measures indicated in the budget. These are welcome steps in the right direction but much more needs to be done if the issue of climate change is to be addressed effectively. However, the impact of carbon-related changes on poor people and poor households must be kept under review. Poor people are affected disproportionately by many of the initiatives associated with the carbon budget process. Care must be taken to ensure that they are compensated adequately when changes are introduced.

Another concern is the failure to effectively address the problem of adult illiteracy. The budget allows a small additional allocation of €3 million for adult literacy programmes and related issues. This is most disappointing. The Government's current target on illiteracy is totally unacceptable. The National Action Plan for Social Inclusion 2007-2008: Building an Inclusive Society states, "The proportion of the population aged 16 to 64 with restricted literacy will be reduced to between 10% and 15% by 2016". Even if that target is achieved, 15% of Ireland's labour force in 2016 will have serious literacy difficulties. If 15% of our working age population have serious literacy problems in 2016, we will have problems with unemployment, poverty and social exclusion. This issue should be prioritised and brought forward. The target needs to be changed and the resources put in place to transform that reality. It can be done. Other countries have done it and we should make it a priority.

The national agreement, Towards 2016, presents a new approach to social policy in which programmes are developed for various stages of the life cycle. Each of those programmes, whether for children, adults of working age, older adults, older people or people with disabilities, is supposed to have three components as follows: everyone should have sufficient income to live life with dignity; all the social services required should be accessible, appropriate and adequate; and all people, whatever their age or situation, should be supported to ensure their activation and participation in society. The budget of 2008 failed to take adequate steps to address many of these areas, as we have identified. More could have been done.

While we welcome the allocation to ensure the National Development Plan 2007-2013 is delivered, we also point to the fact that sufficient resources exist to do much more on the issues of income adequacy, service provision and activation participation. The current budget surplus is €4,866 million. A part of this money could have been used to address social challenges in the areas of income adequacy, service provision and activation. This could have been done well within responsible fiscal parameters and we deeply regret the failure to do so.

The maintenance of the social welfare benchmark, the provision of 9,000 additional housing units, environmental tax initiatives, the distribution of resources that were made available between income tax and social welfare and the Third World aid increase are on the positive side. The failure to honour national agreement commitments on primary care teams and on mental health, the failure to address the problem of the working poor, insufficient action on child poverty, and the failure to address adult illiteracy effectively are on the minus side.

In conclusion, the budget has positive and negative impacts but one of the major consequences will be new challenges that will be quite difficult to address in the review of social partnership, which will begin in the spring of 2008. We have given our detailed response in the analysis and critique document supplied to members. We will be happy to take questions on those issues as well as the ones we have raised.

I apologise for being late. I read the submission over the weekend and agree with CORI on the loss of momentum.

Will Fr. Healy outline to the committee the proposals he had made prior to the budget on dealing more effectively with the issue of the working poor? In spite of advertising campaigns for the family income supplement, very little progress has been achieved in the take-up of the scheme. I support the call of the Fine Gael Party for co-ordinating it with Revenue, as the systems are in place with the PPS number. Has CORI made progress in achieving this during discussions with the Minister? Every pre-budget submission we received raised this issue, yet to the best of my knowledge there has been no significant communication between the Departments of Finance and Social and Family Affairs on this issue.

I missed part of the CORI submission. Perhaps Fr. Healy will outline the view on children living in poverty. I agree that the approach to child poverty is fragmented but we have not dealt with the issue of trying to remove children and their families from poverty. While there is incremental progress every year in provision for carers, the question of young carers has not been addressed. Did CORI make a specific submission on carers?

I welcome the increased provision for social housing. However, the operation of some social housing schemes shows a lack of quality control in the way the estates are managed after they are built. Some local authorities are becoming over-reliant on others to do their work. Once a family gets a house from one of the voluntary agencies, they are no longer considered for local authority housing. This leaves the family in a trap where they cannot progress to a tenant purchase scheme. I have a difficulty with that. All may not agree that everyone should have the opportunity to own their house, but I think they should have that opportunity. I would be interested to hear CORI's comments on that. Deputy Shortall and I will have a briefing on the Bill later on, so I may have to leave.

I welcome Fr. Healy and Sr. Reynolds. I commend them on the pre-budget and post-budget work of CORI. It is very helpful for members to have the benefit of this analysis so soon after the budget. This year was probably a record in this regard.

I would like to pose some questions in regard to CORI's thinking as an organisation and, within the social partnership, in respect of budget 2008. Fr. Healy spoke earlier about the working poor and the issue of refundable tax credits. The tax credit system introduced some years ago by the former Minister for Finance, Charlie McCreevy, was welcomed by all. It provided an instrument for the better distribution of wealth at that stage. However, it has not been used for this purpose since then. There is great potential to assist those on low incomes by way of welfare or through employment. As has been said, tax cuts are of no benefit to people who are outside the tax net. There is a major problem with the absence of refundable tax credits.

Does CORI support the idea of refundable tax credits or does it believe we should be considering basic income, an idea championed by it a number of years ago? What is CORI's current view in this regard? I get the distinct impression there is little appetite for refundable tax credits within social partnership. The view is that it is too complex and much harder to explain from a political point of view and, as such, it is much better to keep the tax argument simple. It is indefensible that we have reached this point without having in place refundable tax credits given that a significant number of people continue to live in poverty despite the fact that the head of the household is working. It is incumbent on us all to discuss this issue and to explain the concept however complex it might be. I would like to know CORI's thinking within the social partnership process in respect of refundable tax credits. Is it a live issue and is it a runner in the foreseeable future?

My second question relates to the issue of child poverty. I was somewhat taken aback by CORI's response and that of the Combat Poverty Agency in respect of the miserly increase of €2 per week for the qualifying child payment. It is extraordinary that 96,000 children are living in poverty and this targeted measure remains at only €24 following a €2 increase this year. This amounts to €3.43 per day for children up to 18 years of age. Everyone in this room who has children will know what it costs to rear children, particularly teenage children. There is a view among Government representatives and some of the agencies working in this area that this income is adequate for children, some of whom are the poorest of the poor. I am disappointed there was not a stronger response to what is in my view an inadequate measure.

Before the announcement of the budget, CORI sought a substantial increase in child benefit. Many families are doing quite well and do not need additional income in terms of their children. The qualified child payment is targeted at the children of the poor. Why did CORI seek an increase in child benefit rather than the qualified child payment? I did not note any reference in the document to lone parents. The Government's proposals for supporting lone parents have been in place now for 18 months yet there has been no progress in this area. What is CORI's position on this issue? In particular, is CORI in favour of ending the co-habitation rule as it stands? Why has it not called on the Government to progress proposals in that regard? In the context of the debate on child poverty it needs to be acknowledged that a significant number of children living in poverty live in lone parent households.

Has CORI any specific proposals on tackling the problem of debt and poverty?

I join with other colleagues in extending a warm welcome to Fr. Seán Healy and Sr. Brigid Reynolds. I am sure we will extend the same welcome to the Combat Poverty Agency. It is important that meetings such as this take place and, as Deputy Shortall mentioned, CORI has been relatively quick out of the traps in producing a response to the budget. Some of us have been keen to hear the different responses from different groups. I heard someone say that if a political reporter from one of the television stations thought the budget was acceptable then it must be so but I am not sure how accurate that is. It does show, however, as do the contributions made today, that people do have different responses. It is interesting to hear a colleague challenging CORI's views. These sessions are excellent and those of us who feel strongly about the committee system in the Oireachtas feel they justify what we are trying to achieve. It is good that organisations come before the committee to tell us exactly what they feel.

I will not be flippant but some of the contributions today, and Fr. Healy's presentation, give the impression there is much more to do. The analysis CORI has produced is excellent and is the clearest one we have received, though I may change my view when the Combat Poverty Agency makes its presentation. I will not make a political point but I refer to the Taoiseach's words a few days to the effect that this was one budget out of five. It will be interesting to hear how CORI envisages its own campaign working through the system. It is interesting that CORI acknowledges that some achievements can be ticked off, while other things, of course, remain to be done. Will it share with the committee what it sees as the priorities for the next couple of years?

Without being patronising, it is important that those of us who are in public life take the opportunity to give those in the social inclusion bracket even more help. At a time when the economy was going well we took the view that if all boats were rising we had to remember the little boats and I made that point during the debate last Thursday. I am interested in the views of CORI on that subject.

As I said, it is important we hold sessions such as this so that bodies like CORI can share their views and identify priorities. The role of the political system is to implement those views and they will be supported from the Government benches as much as the Opposition benches.

I too welcome Fr. Healy and Sr. Reynolds. I am interested in their views on the social welfare aspects of the budget. I remind Deputy O'Connor that this was not the first of five budgets but the 11th of this Government. Anybody who suggests we are at the beginning in that regard is mistaken. That is just politics, however, though Deputy O'Connor started that debate.

I am sure the Deputy would not play politics with this issue.

I am very interested in Fr. Healy's analysis of the budget. One of the areas he welcomed, as I do, is the provision for 9,000 new social housing units. One must wonder, however, whether that happened as a result of the need to support social housing. Alternatively, was it decided in the Galway tent in order to remove houses from an over-supplied market? It is good that there will be more social housing. However, like my colleague, Deputy Enright, I am concerned that some of these houses are tied in to voluntary housing groups and people will not ultimately have the right to own their houses. These are issues we need to examine seriously.

There are three other issues about which I am concerned. The first is that the living alone allowance has not been increased for nine years. No one would claim that a person living alone, especially in rural Ireland, does not have higher costs than a couple living together in respect of, for example, a car or other means of transport, heating and so on. No matter what the Minister or the Taoiseach say, many people are living in very difficult situations. They are very lonely and there is a high rate of suicide in that group. I would like to hear CORI's views on that. What can we do to rectify matters, since there are serious implications?

The second issue concerns the working poor. MABS and other groups state that it is not people on social welfare who now seek their advice but the new poor, namely, people on low incomes. They may have taken out a mortgage and are no longer getting overtime, or they have started a family and no longer have a second income. Such people are certainly under pressure.

The third issue concerns a major anomaly in the social welfare system. If a person is self-employed and in receipt of an old age non-contributory pension, the maximum he or she can earn without affecting the pension is €1,500 per annum or €30 a week, whereas a person in PAYE employment can earn €10,000 per annum or €200 a week. That is absurd. I commented previously that it was illegal but was challenged on that and informed that an Act had gone through the Dáil in regard to it. It is sanctioned by the Dáil but it is totally unfair to the small shopkeeper, plumber, electrician or small farmer nearing the end of their days who can still do some work. Many of them did not have the opportunity to make payments. They now find that if they earn anything it adversely affects their income. The number of people affected is small, approximately 30,000. In the overall context of the budget the system is very unfair to them. I would like to hear the agency's views on this.

Sr. Brigid Reynolds

I will deal with the questions on the new poor or the working poor and, in particular, the question of refundable tax credits. Our proposal is that everybody should benefit fully from their tax credit. If their tax bill is not high enough, the money should be paid back to them. We have put forward a number of proposals in this regard. A few years ago there was a committee, of which Fr. Healy was a member, working on this with the Department of Finance. Part of the problem the committee faced was that there was very significant resistance within the system to implementing its proposals. It was claimed that it would cost approximately €2 billion. Our proposal was never costed but we certainly believe it would be much cheaper than that. One of the complaints made was that children who were stacking shelves would be able to claim refundable tax credits but that was never our intention. We proposed a minimum age limit of 22, below which the credit cannot be claimed, so there would be no disincentives to children continuing in education.

Concerns were also expressed that people could be employed for as little as one hour per week in order to gain refundable tax credits. Similarly, however, we proposed a minimum limit on the hours worked per week, averaged out over the year to take account of seasonal workers. If those restrictions are put in place, the refundable tax credit would cost much less than the Department of Finance's estimate. The report was never published because Fr. Healy refused to sign it unless it included an explanation from the Department, but if the committee wants to pursue the matter, it may.

Fr. Seán Healy

I do not think it is true, as Deputy Shortall asserted, that there is no appetite among the social partners for the proposal. There is no appetite for it in the Department of Finance and, possibly, the Revenue Commissioners but I do not see a problem beyond those two organisations. We have received support on the proposal. It formed part of ICTU's pre-budget submission to the Government and we suspect that many employer organisations are also interested because it makes sense for their low-paid workers to benefit from a budget. I cannot see why they would resist it.

The opposition seems to be driven more by ideology than analysis. The Department consistently refuses to sit down with us to go through the numbers. It makes what we consider to be outrageous claims about the proposal's cost and feasibility. We are happy to sit down with any combination of civil servants or political parties, although the latter have not offered any resistance. The Department, which has a key role in the matter, seems to be institutionally resisting its progression even to the point of allowing it to be discussed. That raises serious questions for me about whether something else is involved.

Is the report to which Sr. Reynolds referred the one on basic income?

Fr. Seán Healy

No. I will address the basic income issue presently. A working group was established to report on tax credits but the Minister of the day wisely ignored the group's report and introduced credits. While we may have disagreed with him on other areas, we strongly supported him in his decision because it went in the right direction.

The subsequent national agreement led to the establishment of another working group to investigate refundable tax credits. That group's report was never published because it refused to include a footnote to explain that the costings in the report were not in respect of a proposal made by anybody, as Sr. Reynolds explained, and were not completed by the Department or the Revenue Commissioners, and because the group refused to quote the Green Paper on basic income. It referred instead to an earlier document produced by the tax and welfare integration group which had been discredited because it contained serious methodological mistakes. Even though the Green Paper on basic income was a more accurate document and was signed off by the Department of Finance and others, the working group refused to refer to it in this report. We merely wanted that to be acknowledged in a footnote.

Can Fr. Healy provide a reference for that report?

Fr. Seán Healy

It is the social partnership report on refundable tax credits. I can revert to the Deputy on its date of publication. A footnote should be added to it.

Deputy Enright is correct that no real progress has been made in increasing the uptake of the family income supplement. Having made all sorts of efforts and having seen Ministers in different Governments, dating back more than 11 years, attempting to make progress, we believe the supplement is great in theory but does not work in practice. We need to acknowledge this and seek other means of achieving the objective. The uptake has never exceeded 40%, despite extraordinary expenditure on the part of Departments through all sorts of campaigns.

Let me outline our proposals on children in poverty, as requested by members, including Deputy Shortall. There is a serious child poverty issue and it needs to be addressed in the context of families. One cannot remove the child from poverty without removing the rest of the family in the household from poverty. A combination of measures is therefore required. We do not support the idea of increasing the qualifying child payment because we spent years cleaning out that trap. It became a huge poverty trap and was a very serious problem in the 1980s. We do not want it to recur.

No solution to child poverty is cheap. There are two proposals on the table, one of which we agree with and the other of which we disagree with fundamentally. The latter is to introduce a second-tier payment. The qualifying child payment would be added to the family income supplement, in addition to some other money, thus creating a new taxable payment that would be withdrawn at a threshold of between €20,000 and €25,000, for example. This allowance would be targeted but would in effect create a new problem at the point of reaching the threshold. This is not the way to proceed. Just when a family's income would begin to rise, it would reach the threshold and then be subject to a substantial decrease, thus creating a new problem.

No policy put into place should incentivise family break-up or disincentivise family formation. We strongly advocate these two principles. If the second proposal were adopted, a very strong incentive would exist to create the illusion, rather than the reality, of living apart so the payment would continue to be made. We have considerable experience of this in respect of various welfare payments, in respect of co-habitation, for example.

We need to think about children rather than about child poverty and child care. Child poverty and child care present two substantial problems that affect children in Ireland and their resolution will cost money. We must resolve them with a single approach by increasing child benefit, which for poorer children tackles child poverty and for children in middle-income families provides money for child care. If child benefit is to be targeted at younger children, the early childhood supplement, which targets children under six, should be increased. This is a much more sensible and integrated approach to policy.

A problem that arises frequently is that the policy system tries to get to grips with one particular issue and develops many initiatives to address it while not recognising that there are all sorts of ripples therefrom. This is the danger associated with opting for a second-tier payment, even if it is taxable, when tackling child poverty. Child poverty and child care can be dealt with in a single stream, and that can be done in a variety of ways. That is the framework within which we would work. If the other approach is adopted, we are setting up all sorts of problems for the future. We can do without those problems.

Can Fr. Healy explain his reasons for viewing the qualified child payment as a poverty trap? I believe I know, but I would like to hear Fr. Healy's explanation.

Before Fr. Healy responds to that, surely if one concentrates on the child benefit payment one is institutionalising disadvantage. Fr. Healy stated that this will work for poor children by taking them out of poverty and for better off children by providing a payment for child care. Poor children also need child care support. I do not know how he can possibly argue that the child of a lone parent on social welfare income should be treated the same way as my child or the child of anybody else who is comfortably off.

Fr. Seán Healy

I completely reject the idea that we are in any way institutionalising child poverty. What I am adamant about, and I would be happy to sit down and work out the figures in more detail with any group or subgroup of this committee or with any political party if they are interested, is that a second tier payment will create a new trap. It will not be a poverty trap because the threshold is at €20,000, unless there are a number of children in the household, when it could create a poverty trap. It is more that it involves a series of traps.

Can it be €40,000 or €60,000?

Fr. Seán Healy

It cannot because once one goes that route one is into the level of money where it would make much more sense to top up the current payments rather than to have a second-tier payment. The numbers have been worked out by Mr. John Sweeney in the National Economic and Social Council who advocates the second-tier payment.

That research is somewhat dated.

Fr. Seán Healy

It has not been published yet.

What research exists to show that increasing the qualified child payment will disincentivise going out to work? Is there not a fundamental issue that there are many families in which the head of the family is not in a position to go out to work because of child minding arrangements, disability or other illnesses? There is no recent research to support that view.

Fr. Seán Healy

All one needs to do is examine the income levels and see what happens when a person goes from unemployment to employment. The more one raises the qualified child payment the more we go back to where we were in the 1980s when that was the biggest unemployment trap. If people took up a job and lost that payment they were in serious trouble. What we are saying is that the payment should be associated with the child, no matter where the family moves, regardless of the parents or the family situation. The child needs the support and the payment should stay with the child. It is not a poverty trap for some people. It can be a poverty trap depending on the size of the household. The combination of traps is the issue. If the threshold is €20,000 or €25,000 and the family income goes above that and the payment is lost, there is a major incentive for a couple to claim they have separated, as happened in the welfare system in the past. That does not happen any more, but for years it was a serious problem. We do not need to institutionalise that problem.

Sr. Brigid Reynolds

For us, basic income is the answer to many of those problems.

Fr. Seán Healy

We are fully supportive of refundable tax credits as the best way to deal with the issue of the working poor. We do not have any great doubts that the current tax and welfare systems are not appropriate to the 21st century. As more and more flexibility is needed, and there is a need to try to ensure security for many people, we need a different tax and welfare system that is more flexible in response to that reality. Our strongly held view is that a basic income system is the best option for a fairer system, as everybody would gain from taking up a job or accepting increased responsibility as he or she would be guaranteed a floor level payment. If members are interested, the World Congress on Basic Income will be held in UCD from 19 to 21 June 2008. If members contact us, we will put them in touch with those involved.

In response to Deputy Crawford's question, the actual commitment to an additional 9,000 housing units per year precedes the fall in the housing market. It was contained in the national agreement and prior to that it was included in the report of the National Economic and Social Council on which the social partnership agreement is based.

Deputy Enright raised the issue of carers. A commitment was made to have a national carers strategy completed by the end of 2007, but it is quite a distance from being completed. We take a negative view of this and have raised it in other arenas. The issue of young carers, in particular, should be given quite serious consideration. It is a scandal that young people are in caring roles that are completely inappropriate. Our view is that we need to face the issue and deal with it.

Combat Poverty Agency has done a great deal of work on the accumulation of debt. The Money Advice and Budgeting Service, MABS, programme does a very good job in this regard. We believe that programme should be resourced so that debt is dealt with. I suspect there may be a growing debt problem as the economy tightens.

In terms of priorities, the four interacting areas that need to be dealt with are income, services, infrastructure and participation. We need to tackle two basic macro economic issues, first, the working poor and, second, all the people depending on welfare who are outside the labour force, that is more than 89% of those households. We propose that the qualifying adult payment should be raised to 100% of the payment of the first adult in the house. We think that would go some distance towards dealing with household poverty. Second, child poverty must be addressed. We are in discussion as to the best way to do it, but there must be a serious financial commitment to tackling child poverty. To deal with the issue of the working poor, it is a simple measure of making tax credits refundable. That would mean that everybody would benefit from the budget.

We have highlighted the failure to provide funding in the budget for the third 100 primary care teams, which should have been rolled out by the end of 2008. We consider that to be totally unacceptable. We think a range of services need to be taken up and we highlighted the provisions for primary care teams and for adult literacy. We welcome the expenditure in the national development plan to bring the infrastructure up to the European average levels. We are supportive of continuing this process, but not at the expense of delivering the services that are dependent on current expenditure.

The issue of activation and participation was raised. Activation is often viewed only in terms of activation for the labour market. However, activation of children and older people, about whom the Deputy spoke earlier, is also important. The activation of people with disabilities in respect of their participation in society is equally important. There needs to be serious investment in this area. Such investment would result in an integrated impact on the risk of poverty, social inclusion and the unfairness that persists in society.

Deputy Charlie O’Connor took the Chair.

Does CORI support the Government's proposals in respect of lone parents?

Fr. Seán Healy

Where the two adults receive the same money co-habiting is not an issue. CORI has argued for some time that all individual adults dependent on welfare should receive full adult payments. We believe this is achievable now given the basic welfare rate has increased to 30% of the average industrial wage before tax. Quite an amount of the additional money that would otherwise have been spent on the adult rate can now be used to increase the qualifying adult payment to 100% and contribute to child poverty regardless of the priorities in this area.

Does that go beyond welfare?

Fr. Seán Healy

Yes.

I suggest we take contributions from Deputy Catherine Byrne, Senator McFadden and Deputy Morgan following which Fr. Healy and Sr. Brigid will respond to their questions. We will then move on to the presentation from the Combat Poverty Agency. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I thank CORI for its presentation. I do not have a question for the delegation but would like to make a short contribution. I do not disagree with anything I have read so far in the document.

For the past ten years, Ireland has been viewed by the world as a land flowing with milk and honey. In my opinion, people have received the milk but continue to wait for the honey. I grew up in a disadvantaged area of the inner city and I recognise from my work in this area during the past number of years many of the issues identified in the document. This is my first opportunity as a Member of the new Dáil to attend a committee like this and in this regard I am learning the ropes.

I represent the constituency of Dublin South-Central. I recently visited a particular area of my constituency where 90% of the people are unemployed and 70% are lone parents. Approximately 29% of people in this area leave school before the age of 15. I made contact over the weekend with a friend who works for the Society of St. Vincent de Paul. He told me that this would probably be the worst year ever for the society in terms of people seeking assistance. This is a sad reflection on a society supposedly living in the land of milk and honey.

I appreciate CORI's contribution. It highlights that there are people besides me who are aware of what is happening on the ground. I visited a new school in my area last Friday. It is a beautiful school which caters for 149 students in one of the most deprived areas of Dublin South-Central, Cherry Orchard. However, the school does not have a caretaker or cleaners. The school is dependent on staff coming in at weekends to clean it. In addition, there is no visible security there. All fund raising for the school is undertaken by the parents despite the fact that the Government has allocated €95 million for education in 2008.

Fr. Healy spoke earlier about journeying with people. I have been a member for the past five years of the regeneration boards of Fatima Mansions, St. Michael's Estate and St. Theresa's Gardens. I am concerned about what happens following development of an area in terms of education, after-school programmes and adult education. As Fr. Healy stated earlier, as public representatives, we have an obligation to journey with people over the next 20 or 30 years and to not simply build them up and leave them to fall flat on their faces. I have no qualms about what CORI has said. However, I hope more people like those in CORI shout and jump up and down on these issues. Deputy Shortall also suggested that people in positions such as those occupied by Fr. Healy and Sr. Reynolds should be more vocal about what can be done. It makes people, such as us on the opposite side of the room, sit up and listen.

Having been involved in regeneration boards I have seen the great need to revitalise social housing and have a sense of how we should go about it. Many young people turn up to my clinics looking to be housed but they have a partner living with them and are afraid to admit it because they would lose all their benefits if it became known. That should be looked at and we as a committee should do so. I would appreciate any input from CORI on the matter as it is an important issue. Many young people would like to declare they are living with somebody, in this changing world, but know that if they did so they would lose benefits. I fully agree with what CORI said about the family income supplement because it needs a major overhaul as quickly as possible. I thank CORI for its presentation.

I am pleased to meet, for the first time, Fr. Healy and Sr. Reynolds. My two questions relate to the working poor, as I believe they have not been addressed. What is the opinion of CORI on the incentives for lone parents to work without having to lose welfare benefits? I take the point that payments should stay with the child but that is of little benefit if a person loses his or her medical card or rent allowance, or if the rent in a local authority house goes up dramatically, say to €100 per week, which is a huge amount of money for someone working in a low-paid job. I also accept the point that making tax credits refundable would address the problem but I do not know if doing so would completely resolve it. I would value CORI's opinion on the issue.

The second question I have relates to the health of the working poor. I note that lupus and asthma have not been included in the long-term illness scheme but they are very serious for people on low incomes. What are the views of CORI on that issue? The increase to €90 per month for those on the drugs repayment scheme is cruel. Such people choose to work, even though they have an illness, and want to contribute to the economy rather than claim social welfare, yet we penalise them.

I wish to put on record my disappointment at the failure to roll out primary care in Athlone. It is a very important issue and we have been waiting since 1999 so I agree with CORI on that issue.

Sr. Brigid Reynolds

I thank Deputy Byrne for her kind comments. We agree with the points she raised on the social agenda and regeneration, as well as on the importance of supporting families after they have been housed, as the need for support does not end when a family is housed.

On Senator McFadden's point about the medical card, we criticised not only the fact that the threshold had not been raised but that there was a lack of clarity and transparency on how people obtained medical cards. That also relates to the discussion we had on family income supplement, which people do not take up for fear of losing other benefits such as the medical card. That is something we will pursue as we go forward. Our health care office takes up the issue of diseases which are not on the list, but which should be, and we will instruct it to take the matter up on our return.

Fr. Seán Healy

I have two final comments. One refers to Deputy Byrne's point about the need to allocate spending to schools. The increase of €95 million for the primary schools building programme is welcome but we note a simultaneous decrease in the capital provision for secondary schools. It remains a worry that we have now only begun to plan for the schools needed next year. Data is available from the census in 2001 and 2006 that clearly signals impending increases in the number of children in Ireland who will need schools. It is important that the Government, and particularly the Department of Education and Science, pay attention to population projections calculated by the CSO for the years 2006 through to 2036. That is something the committee might take up in the period ahead. The CSO calculated that the number of primary school children would increase from 433,000 in 2001 to 500,000 by 2011 and 560,000 by 2016. If we know those numbers now, it is important that that kind of roll-out be done now, not in 2015.

The second and last point I want to make relates to the importance of the social agenda. It is critically important to recognise that what was accepted across the world 15 years ago is now seen not to be true. If one had asked anybody in Ireland 15 years ago what we needed to do to get things to work they would have said it was a question of getting the economy right and that everything else would follow. During the 1992 presidential campaign in the United States the phrase "It's the economy, stupid" was widely used. Everybody accepted it. Of all the countries in the world, Ireland epitomises what happens when one gets the economy right. Ireland has done tremendously well but we have now recognised that everything else does not automatically follow. We need to recognise that social development is just the other side of the coin to economic development. We need good economic development to provide the resources for our social development. If we do not have good social development we will not have good economic development either. If our education system is such that a high proportion of people have serious literacy problems we will damage our economic development. Economic development and social development are two sides of the one coin. We need to recognise that and that they should be held in balance and given equal priority. Each needs the other. We need to change that slogan of the early 1990s and replace it with the slogan "It's not just the economy, stupid".

There is no answer to that. I thank Fr. Seán Healy and Sr. Brigid Reynolds for their presentation and for answering questions so well. I wish them continuing success and ask them to keep in touch with us.

I propose to invite the Combat Poverty Agency delegation to take their seats. We will follow the same procedure as before. We will hear the presentations and then take questions in groups.

It is scandalous that there is no Government member here.

It is. I am noting it.

The Vice Chairman knows it is not my way to be small.

I do not deny it. It is scandalous. The Government members should be here.

Our two leaders in Fine Gael and the Labour Party have to leave.

I ask Mr. O'Kelly to preface his remarks by introducing his colleagues. Following his presentation, I propose to take contributions from committee members. I apologise that other business has taken several of my colleagues away from the meeting. I am quite embarrassed about that but, unfortunately, it is the nature of the Oireachtas. However, Mr. O'Kelly is very welcome and, as I noted earlier, these sessions are important.

Mr. Kevin O’Kelly

I thank the Vice Chairman. I am the acting director of the Combat Poverty Agency. I am joined by our research and policy analyst, Mr. Jim Walsh, who has been working on the budget since last week. Two members of our board are also present, Ms Maria O'Gorman, who is on the Listowel District Council, and Mr. Tony Lane, who is from Kinsale. My remaining two colleagues are Ms Bevin Cody, head of communications and public communications, and Dr. Kasey Treadwell Shine, head of research and policy.

Some of the issues we will raise overlap with our colleagues from CORI but, as an agency of the Department of Social and Family Affairs, we have a different role to play. Consequently, we welcome the opportunity to meet this committee.

The Combat Poverty Agency was established in 1986 by statute to advise the Government on all aspects of policy pertaining to people living in poverty, initiate measures that would work towards overcoming poverty, undertake research into the nature, causes and extent of poverty, establish a programme of public education on poverty-related issues and foster community developments that would alleviate poverty in disadvantaged areas. We have just come from a conference in Dublin Castle on one of the projects we designed to assist local communities and organisations to develop participative processes that would help people living in poverty and disadvantaged communities to influence policy formation. We also published a book at the conference, Silent People and Other Stories, which tells the stories of people who live in poverty throughout Ireland today.

The budget is the main forum for the detailed outline of Government policies, so we meet our statutory remit to advise on economic and social policy by submitting our views on which issues the budget should address and the levels of tax and welfare we consider necessary to lift people from poverty and deal with social exclusion. Before asking Mr. Walsh to outline our initial analysis of the budget, I will provide the context. Two weeks ago, the Central Statistics Office published its analysis of the EU survey on income and living conditions for 2006, which indicated a small reduction occurred in income poverty, that is, those living on or below €202.49 per week, from 18.5% of the population in 2005 to 17% in 2006. This represents a reduction of almost 43,500 people, year on year. Interestingly, 29,000 of these, or approximately two thirds, were older people. There was a reduction in poverty among older people from 20% in 2005 to approximately 13.6% in 2006. This demonstrates that budgets matter and have an impact on reducing poverty when vulnerable groups are targeted specifically.

Consistent poverty, including income poverty, as measured by the indices we use, has also reduced between 2005 and 2006. It decreased from 7% in 2005 to 6.9% in 2006. It was a small reduction but, in real terms, must be considered in the context of a growing population. Bearing this in mind, we estimate the number living in consistent poverty has actually increased by approximately 3,400 year on year. This demonstrates the difficulty in addressing the needs of the most excluded social groups and the need to make a greater effort to reduce consistent poverty to between 2% and 4% of the population by 2012, and completely by 2016, as set out in Towards 2016 and the national action plan for social inclusion.

Who is living in poverty? Of the 6.9% living in consistent poverty last year, 35% were children, which is 11% of all children in the country. Deputies Enright and Shortall raised this with Fr. Healy. Consistent poverty is a major problem requiring redress. Combat Poverty is concerned that we are still finding it difficult to tackle child poverty.

Some 30% of those living in consistent poverty are either retired, ill, disabled or working on home duty. Approximately one third of those living in consistent poverty are not available to work. Almost 13% are students, 10.5% are unemployed and close to 10% are actually at work. Almost one third of those living in a household in which the head is not working are living in consistent poverty. These statistics highlight the major challenge we face.

My colleague, Mr. Jim Walsh, will present a detailed analysis of the budget.

Mr. Jim Walsh

It would be helpful if members followed the handout I have circulated because I will refer to a number of diagrams.

The analysis we are presenting is usually produced in February, in the cold light of day after the budget. However, we are delighted to be asked to present it before February, in almost record time. While this was a challenge for us, it allowed us to be more involved in the live debate of the committee. We appreciate the opportunity to present our ideas earlier than we have done heretofore. The final version of our document will be available in February and is still work in progress. We are very keen to hear members' views and comments on how our analysis could be improved through the incorporation of other data. We are still trying to make progress in respect thereof. We are focusing on assessing the poverty impact of the budget. Poverty impact assessment is not an option. It is a formal requirement under guidelines set out by the office for social inclusion under the national anti-poverty strategy and its successor the national action plan for social inclusion.

The Department of Finance applies an approach to the examination of the income tax measures of the budget. It is published as annexe B with the financial statement of the Minister for Finance. Our approach is slightly different. We focus on the combination of tax and welfare measures combined. This makes sense in that both tax and social welfare payments are instruments of income redistribution and can overlap in the population. Child benefit is a good example. Child benefit goes to everyone in the population so one needs to see what is the distributive impact across the whole range of the population and not just focus on those on lower incomes. That is the difference in our approach compared with that of the Department of Finance.

In terms of measuring impact, we look at two key measures of impact. One is the change in the at risk of poverty rate. This is the official EU indicator of poverty. It is also one element of the Irish Government's official indicator of consistent poverty which combines low income and deprivation. The second indicator we use is an overall indicator of income distribution. Again this is an official EU measure relating to poverty. I will also note some other poverty implications of the budget, but not in great detail. We will focus on the tax-welfare side.

The total tax-welfare package was €1,600 million. There are three components to this package as follows: approximately 46% or €752 million was spent on social welfare; 42% or €685 million was spent on income tax; and approximately 12% or €194 million was spent on child income support. In overall terms there was a 60% to 40% welfare-tax division. From a policy point of view it is a positive sign that priority has been given to welfare and child income support over income tax. That is a good starting point.

The package is down significantly at 40% less than was spent in 2007, which was €2,748 million. All three components in the 2008 budget are reduced. The income tax side is hardest hit. That is down by half compared with last year. The social welfare component is reduced by one third. Child income support is down by one fifth. Welfare income supports were protected in the reduced budget available whereas income tax took the big hit. An additional €700 million is being spent on the provision of services. The capital budget was also increased. We do not intend to focus on those but it is important to acknowledge them.

In terms of measuring distributive impact, it was interesting that Fr. Seán Healy mentioned the poverty impact of the budget. This is what we will try to show. We can use a tax-welfare model which is representative of the diversity of tax-welfare situations in Irish households. This is a computer-based model. We can put into this model the tax and welfare changes made in the budget and that will project the changes in terms of income distribution levels and in terms of income poverty. Using this model we can predict the impact. We will not have to wait two or three years for the EU findings. This is a far better way of analysing the budget than using case studies. A typical case study of two adults and two children represents only one in 20 households in the population. That is not typical. A model represents the whole diversity of the population, different family structures and the different combinations of income, tax liabilities and welfare transfers. Most people have a mixture of all of that. This model, which was developed by the Economic and Social Research Institute, is based on a national representative sample and is widely used by Government Departments. The Departments of Finance and Social and Family Affairs use it. It is a well tried and trusted mechanism.

What do we compare? We compared the impact of the 2008 budget with a wage index 2007 budget. We take 2007 policy and index it in line with wages, which is forecast at 4.5%. We do that in order to maintain relativities between those at work and those in receipt of welfare. This is referred to as a distributionally neutral budget. We are looking at the additional resources available in the budget over wage indexation of tax and welfare. We will then focus on what happened to that pot of resources.

We will consider, first, what household gained and if this is evenly spread across all income groups. Second, we will consider the changes in the numbers of people in poverty and what we call the poverty gaps. This measures the extent to which people in poverty fall below the different threshold lines, for example, are they €1 or €10 below the threshold. We are concentrating on the head counts and the gaps.

The net resources after indexation available in budget 2008 were €108 million. This is a relatively small amount, especially compared with the envelope of resources available after indexation in budget 2007, which was €1,086 million or ten times that sum. It is a small surplus but it is still interesting to see where the money went and its impact on poverty. The aggregate figure of €108 million hides internal patterns in social welfare and income tax. The actual net welfare gain is €170 million. However, this is offset by a tax shortfall of between €80 million and €90 million. In other words, the indexation on the tax side was not sufficiently in line with the forecast wage growth. There are no additional resources available for child income support, which was indexed in line with wages. When averaged across the population, the gain per household works out at 0.1%. That is much smaller than in the 2007 budget when the gain was 1.5%. In cash terms, the gain after indexation is less than €1 per household unit per week, while in budget 2007 the gain was ten times that figure. This is a much more modest budget.

How has this modest change been shared out among all income groups? The diagram shows that the budget favoured low income groups. For the bottom 30% of the population, the gain was around 1% to 1.5% in average household income. The fourth and fifth centile show gains in line with the average of 0.1%. The richest 50% of the population record a neutral or very small loss compared with a wage index budget. There is a very strong focus on lower income groups but at quite a small scale of impact of 1.5%

Next we look at the effect on income poverty. We use three thresholds, 50% of the median, 60% of the median and 70% of the median, to get a fuller picture because people's incomes are determined by the level of social welfare. Therefore, depending on the level of social welfare, that can be above or below a threshold. An examination of the three different thresholds provides a fuller picture. In cash terms, 60% of the median is €275 for a single adult. This is the cash value forecast for 2008. By way of comparison, 60% of the median in the EU survey to which Mr. O'Kelly referred earlier was €202.

In terms of income poverty, members will note from the three thresholds that the fall in income poverty is concentrated at the 50% threshold. This is the equivalent of €229 per week for a single person, a significant drop of 11.5%. Under this budget, relative income poverty at the 50% threshold will fall by more than 10%. However, at the 60% and 70% thresholds the position remains unchanged.

Head count measure is but one way of examining this issue. The analysis can be complemented by examining the gap in terms of the extent to which the incomes of those under the threshold fall below it by either €1 or €10. There is a consistent pattern of decline in the poverty gap of between 3% and 6% across the three thresholds. Effectively, the distance between the levels at which people fall below the poverty line has narrowed. While the head count numbers at the 60% and 70% levels remain unchanged, the poverty gap has decreased and this is positive.

To put the budget in context, I will speak now about its distributive impact as compared with budget 2007. I will do likewise in respect of poverty impact. There are two points to note when one compares budget 2007 with budget 2008. There is a similar pattern of targeted redistribution in both budgets in that both provide more resources for lower income groups. However, the scale of redistribution in budget 2008 is much smaller than that contained in budget 2007. For example, in 2008 the bottom 20% of the population will receive slightly more than 1% while they gained more than 4% in the previous budget. The sum provided in this year's budget is four times smaller, a common feature up the line. For example, there is virtually no change in the figure this year for the richest income group whereas they gained 1% last year. There are strong parallels in budget 2008 and budgets 2003 and 2004. I will explore this further in the detailed analysis.

I will now illustrate the effect on income poverty of budgets 2007 and 2008. At the 50% threshold there is little difference in the two budgets. The fall in both cases amounts to approximately 10%. At the 60% threshold, budget 2007 provides for a reduction of approximately 4% and this remains unchanged in 2008. At the 70% threshold, there is no affect in both budgets. I will summarise now the main points of this analysis in terms of the factors which contributed to the outcomes which I have just outlined.

The rate increases of between 6% and 7% are ahead of wages growth which is forecast to be around 4.5%. Welfare increases are ahead of this, resulting in rate gains for groups relying on social welfare, namely, those at the bottom range of the income schedule. Tax adjustments in terms of credits and bands were increased by approximately 4%. This is slightly short of the forecast wage growth and as a result more wage income will be taxable in 2008. This is the reason for the increase so there will be little gain in this regard. One might well question the positive impact on poverty given less money is being spent. There are two factors at play. First, the poverty thresholds are unchanged in cash terms. The thresholds in the wage-indexed budget and the actual budget 2008 are virtually the same. Effectively the threshold has not been increased, which can pose a challenge if there is rapid income growth.

Flat rate welfare increases will always benefit the poorest more. The increase of €12 per week will have a bigger impact on the poorest groups in society than on the groups below the 60% or 70% line. Flat rate increases are targeted at the poorest groups in society.

The level of child poverty is unchanged because the child income support package is just adequate to keep in line with forecast wage growth. There was not enough surplus to make an impact on child poverty.

I will talk about some medium-term issues which need to be addressed in future budgets and will flag up a few tax-welfare issues. The first concerns the implications of the pensions benchmark for the basic welfare rate. Budget 2008 marked time on this by giving an equivalent increase of €12 for the basic welfare rate and the non-contributory pension and €14 for the contributory pension. However, much larger increases are needed for the next four years if the €300 target is to be met, amounting to between €80 and €100, or €20 and €25 per week. What will the level of increase in the basic welfare rate be? Will it be in line with that figure or will it be lower? They will be the major policy questions going forward. As I said, this budget marked time on the issue, and the next few budgets will not be able to achieve the target.

The second issue concerns the policy direction for the qualified adult allowance payments. We see that the qualified adult allowance payments for a person aged over 66 who is the adult dependant of a contributory pension holder have been raised significantly to €200 per week or 90% of the personal rate. This raises the question as to what the qualified adult rate for all other welfare categories is. It is stuck at 66% of the personal rate, despite a commitment in budget 2000 to raise it to 70%. In cash terms this is now a significant gap, as the qualified adult in one category receives €200 but those in most welfare categories receive €131, which represents substantial inequality. This raises an issue in regard to the equivalence rate for qualified adult payments.

I do not mean to interrupt but the Chairman said earlier that we had to vacate the room by 3.20 p.m. Can Mr. Walsh sum up so that I can ask if members want to make contributions?

Mr. Jim Walsh

I was going to make a point about the child income support package but I will leave it at that.

I am a little stunned by the response of the Combat Poverty Agency to the budget, in its presentation today as well as its press statements. It is as if an attempt is being made to cause as little offence as possible, which is regrettable.

The presentation involved a detailed analysis of the shareout of what it referred to as modest resources. Is that what it is about? Is it the role of the Combat Poverty Agency to analyse the comparative figures of how people in different income categories fared in the budget, or is it to address real situations, real incomes and the ability of people to survive on the incomes they have? Mr. Walsh commented that there was not a great enough surplus to impact on child poverty. I do not know what he means. All I know is that neither in the agency's response nor in its media material is there any effort to raise concern at the level of child poverty, that we have 96,000 children living in poverty, and that little or nothing was done in the budget to change their situation. I am disappointed with the response of the Combat Poverty Agency to the budget and with its presentation.

I want to ask the same questions I asked of CORI. What is the agency's view on refundable tax credits and what research has it done? What is its view on the issue of child poverty and what measures does it propose to tackle that problem? What is its position in regard to lone parents and the fact that there are so many lone parents and so many children of lone parents living in poverty? What are its proposals in that regard? Why was the agency so quiet in regard to the failure of the budget to tackle any of those three areas?

I welcome the representatives of the Combat Poverty Agency. I have had previous experience of working with the agency on this committee. I know its remit and what it is about. While its analysis is interesting, it does not provide much hope of rectifying the child poverty issue. That in itself is very serious. What worthwhile changes in the structures would improve the situation?

The issues I raised with CORI are issues about which I feel very strongly. One again, they are not mentioned in the analysis of the Combat Poverty Agency. I refer to the situation of those living alone, particularly in rural areas. One can use a bus pass in Dublin City. One does not have that option of one is living in some part of counties Monaghan, Cavan or Donegal where there is no train service. The cost of taxis is enormous. People cannot go out for a drink because of the drink driving laws. I am not against the drink driving laws, but there is an issue of loneliness which is extremely serious. Despite all this, there has been no change in the living alone allowance for the past nine years and none of the organisations — CORI, the Combat Poverty Agency or any other agency — has raised the issue. I can understand, therefore, why the Minister does not see it as an issue.

As one who has lobbied on the issue for a long time, I welcome the improvement in the qualified adult allowance for pensioners. It improves the situation of women, particularly former civil servants, who were forced to give up their jobs on marriage and, therefore, had no stamps. It does, however, raise the anomaly in regard to others. In general, social welfare has been a major element in the budget. There are still poverty traps and this committee must work with interested groups to find better ways of alleviating the real poverty that exists.

Before I came to this meeting a colleague told me that he had recently spoken to a member of the Society of St. Vincent de Paul who intimated that this year the issue was food, not the toys they sought as a gesture of good will in the past. It is the basics which are needed this Christmas and that indicates the existence of poverty. St. Vincent de Paul people are good people and they are not exaggerating.

What is the Combat Poverty Agency's definition of poverty? The breakdown of the 7% figure in terms of children and the disabled is frightening, so it is important the agency clarifies its proposals on changing this situation and ending poverty in Ireland. What proposals have been put to the Government?

I regret that I have to implement the Chairman's timetable, which requires us to leave the room now. I will allow Mr. O'Kelly to respond briefly and, if members agree, ask him to provide more details in writing to members' questions.

Mr. Kevin O’Kelly

In answer to Deputy Shortall's question, we have a number of roles. In my opening remarks, which I gave while the Deputy was out of the room, I noted that 35% of those living in consistent poverty are children. That is of deep concern to us. However, our role is somewhat different to CORI's in that we work closely with the Department of Social and Family Affairs, the Office of the Minister for Children and other Departments on addressing these issues.

Is the Combat Poverty Agency not supposed to be independent?

Mr. Kevin O’Kelly

We are independent.

I find it remarkable, therefore, that the agency makes so little criticism of the budget given the scale of the problem of poverty, particularly among children. I do not mean to make a political point in saying that.

Mr. Kevin O’Kelly

We have conducted an initial analysis and will return to the committee at a later stage with the detailed analysis. We are independent but we work within the system. We co-operate closely with all Departments in making policy recommendations on these issues and will continue to do so. I am aware the Vice Chairman is anxious to conclude the meeting.

It is not my preference but the doors are likely to be stormed shortly.

Mr. Kevin O’Kelly

A number of the issues raised by members were covered in detail by our pre-budget submission. We will make our detailed analysis on the basis of what we proposed should be done in this budget compared with what was actually done. Mr. Walsh's presentation was very much a first look at last week's budget. We will respond in detail to the comments made by members and, when our detailed analysis is completed by the end of January or February, we would welcome the opportunity to address the committee again.

We would wish the Combat Poverty Agency to do so.

This meeting may have been held too early for the agency. If that is the case, we apologise.

Mr. Kevin O’Kelly

In a way, yes.

However, I stand over the points I made about the agency's initial reaction and will wait to see whether a detailed analysis will be produced to support that reaction.

I thank the Combat Poverty Agency and CORI for attending the committee.

I propose that we write to the Department of Finance to ask it to forward us a copy of the report referred to by Fr. Seán Healy.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

When is it proposed to meet again?

The arrangements have not been made. I will bring this to the attention of the Chairman and ask that each member be contacted when a date is nominated.

When is it envisaged?

I understand it will be towards the end of January. I wish everybody a happy Christmas.

The joint committee went into private session at 3.25 p.m. and adjourned at 3.30 p.m. sine die.
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