JOINT COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL AND FAMILY AFFAIRS debate -
Wednesday, 30 Apr 2008

Families in Poverty: Discussion with ATD Fourth World.

Vice Chairman

I introduce the presentation by ATD Fourth World on the problems facing families living in poverty. I welcome Mr. Stuart Williams, Ms Marie Maher, Mr. David Lynch and Ms Tina Kearney of ATD Fourth World; Mr. Mark Hogan, director of services, St. Vincent's Trust, and Dr. Ger Doherty, community worker and researcher. I apologise for the absence of the Chairman, Deputy Healy-Rae. I am sorry he is not here, as I am sure the delegation would have preferred to meet him, given that he is a big star. He is detained on other business and has asked me to apologise on his behalf.

I ask Mr. Williams to begin the presentation on the work and findings of ATD Fourth World, especially on the problems experienced by families living in poverty. Following the presentation which should take approximately ten minutes, there will be a question and answer session of approximately 35 minutes duration. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Mr. Stuart Williams

I thank the Vice Chairman for giving us this opportunity to share with the committee our serious concerns about poverty, not from a statistical or thematic point of view, but through the realities of people's lives and their daily struggles. Before we make our joint presentation, I acknowledge the supportive presence of visitors representing the Ballyfermot Social Initiative, the north-west inner city training and development programme and the Southside Travellers Action Group.

ATD Fourth World is an international organisation that fights poverty as a human rights issue. It undertakes grassroots projects in a number of countries and shares its experiences nationally, in forums such as this, and internationally, through its consultative status at the UN and the Council of Europe and its permanent delegation at the European Union. We engage with people who have a long history of poverty as well as with other groups and organisations which share a particular concern for those whose lives are hardest. With some of these groups, ATD Fourth World runs monthly cross-community meetings of people in poverty in Dublin. We are developing a creative outreach programme for marginalised children, young people and adults, and, along with a coalition of 20 other voluntary and community groups, we organise annual events to mark the UN's international day for the eradication of poverty on 17 October. We work to create space so that people in poverty can give voice to their experiences and engage in a dialogue with people from other backgrounds.

More than 700,000 people live in hurtful and life sapping poverty in Ireland. Most feel they have no place and are not valued or wanted in today's economic buoyancy. Despite the energy and resourcefulness of the political and professional world and our levels of innovative voluntary and community action, we do not yet know how to ensure everyone can live decently in our society. Ireland has led Europe in establishing a national anti-poverty strategy. The 1995 Copenhagen world summit on social development, which was the catalyst for the strategy, reiterated in its final declaration that programmes and policies to overcome poverty will only be effective if the people most directly affected by poverty are involved in the creation and evaluation of these programmes and policies. We see echoes of this ambition in the significant investments made in consultation exercises, among which are the regular social inclusion forum meetings, and in initiatives such as the Combat Poverty Agency's having your say programme. These attempt to solicit the views and experiences of people in poverty rather than listening solely to those who advocate on their behalf. We do what we can to contribute to these efforts both directly and through community platforms and NGO networks such as the European Anti-Poverty Network and the Children's Rights Alliance.

We seem to stop short of giving a privileged place to people with frontline experience of poverty, particularly at the harshest and most entrenched levels. In discussions about the effect of poverty on people, a definition of poverty that rings true for the people who live it and the steps needed to end poverty, the people who I describe as experts in poverty by experience do not yet have a seat around the table. We ask the committee to recognise their place at the table, not only as testimony to what is difficult or unacceptable in today's Ireland but also as frontline actors in the fight against poverty and daily contributors to the defence of fundamental human rights. They have helped our society become truly modern from a human dignity perspective. People who live in extreme forms of poverty have an acute sense of what is most dehumanising about being poor and, in contrast, the priorities, values and goals we should set to reinforce people's dignity and sense of worth.

Ms Marie Maher

I want to speak today about families who are facing hardships, the toughest of which is putting children through school. I have been in that situation. One of my sons left primary school unable to read and write and was completely out of education for nearly two years. He never started secondary school but it was as if he did not exist for the Department of Education and Children. This is how children end up on the streets and get into trouble. I did not know what to do or who to turn to. When we are in a corner, we fear people are going to put all the blame on us and we keep our head down. In the end, the WISE women's group gave me and my family the support we needed to get my son into the life centre, a learning centre for children who have been shut out of normal schools. Once he received the support he needed, everything changed for him. He was able to learn and did well in school. He has completed his junior certificate and his education continues.

Many families face the same situation as we did. Too many young people from poor communities and the Traveller community are dropping out of school. Their parents feel helpless, just as I did. These young people have the right to an education and a future but who is defending their right?

With the support of the women's group, I also went back to school and my entire family is now in education. I am very involved in my community and help out at the life centre. I continue to be involved with the women's group and I attend cross-community meetings every month. We come from different communities around Dublin, including members of the homeless community and the Traveller community and we have all been through the mill. We offer mutual support and we learn from each another. Groups like this are needed to support struggling families. Thanks to the women's group, I now have the power to speak for myself and others. People like us, who have been through a lot, can help policy makers understand what needs to be done to improve the lives of families. We do not have all the answers but we have a lot of experience which we want to share. To do this, however, we need further opportunities such as today's meeting.

Mr. David Lynch

My partner, Tina Kearney, and I live in a Dublin City Council housing estate with our four children. I am a member of my local school committee. People speak about rich Ireland but that is not true for many of us. Many people lack heating in the winter or go without light. Some have to go to dinner houses or borrow money to feed their children. Families are forced to live in accommodation that changes all the time. Traveller families are still on the side of the road without facilities.

Like many others, we have been through a lot. At different times we were kicked out of our home and I lost my job. At times we had nothing but worries for our children, especially our son who has attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. Through all of this, our greatest strength has been our ability to face issues together. Even though family life is not always easy, families are vital in the struggle against poverty. The family is a support and a refuge which helps us know who we are. However, certain welfare policies and the shortage of housing make matters extremely difficult for families. Many young mothers have to stay in their family homes with the children while the fathers live with their own families or in hostels. Such situations can last for several years, with serious effects on children who need their fathers as much as their mothers. Families live in fear of being unable to pay debts to loan sharks, of eviction and for their children's safety. When children are taken into care, the strength is sapped from the parents.

Ms Tina Kearney

Welfare, housing and family policies have to strengthen couples and families against poverty and insecurity. Real support should be made available when it is needed, not several years later. The way to fight poverty is to grant people their rights to home, education and training, decent incomes through work or welfare and family lives. The best way to help children is to help the parents. They do much for their children but often that is not seen. Parents who struggle through life love their kids, have hopes for them, and want to pass on what they have learned that can make them stronger in life. Communities need support. There is not enough for the children and young people to do. We used to help on an after-school and summer programme for the children in the flats, before it was closed down. One could see the huge difference it made in their lives. There must be projects to involve men in the community. Much is done for women, but not nearly enough for men and fathers.

People like us are involved and want to be partners with others in the fight against poverty. It is important for us to speak with the committee today to bring to its attention some of the greatest worries parents in poverty are faced with. We want to contribute to the committee's thinking about new ways forward for children and their families. We know we can do this, not on our own but with the support of our groups and communities.

Mr. Stuart Williams

That concludes our presentation but may I ask that during our discussion the Chairman allow us a few moments to put three recommendations and an invitation to the committee?

Vice Chairman

Absolutely. Without patronising I congratulate the witnesses on the presentation, particularly the programme participants. They did very well.

Deputy Olwyn Enright

I welcome the witnesses and thank them for their presentations. I disagree with little of what the witnesses said but it is interesting to hear it from their perspective. To show my ignorance, what does ATD stand for?

Mr. Stuart Williams

ATD stands for Aide à Toute Détresse, the original name of our movement when it was founded in a Paris shanty town in the 1950s.

Deputy Olwyn Enright

I was not sure if it was something to do with an area-based partnership. The different organisations are St. Vincent's Trust and ATD Fourth World. Who funds the ATD Fourth World part of it? How does the organisation interact with other agencies? As Dr. Doherty is a community worker I presume he is funded, or maybe not, although he is nodding his head. How does ATD Fourth World interact with agencies such as the HSE and the agencies working under the Departments of Education and Science and Social and Family Affairs? In Ms Maher's presentation she mentioned seeking more organisations. I assume she means organisations to work directly with people on the ground. To offer my view for discussion, sometimes the number of State organisations makes it more difficult for families because they do not know which door they are supposed to knock on. I recently had an incident of a child suspended from school who had to deal with six different organisations to try to get a place in another classroom and still has not got one. That is part of the difficulty. In his presentation Mr. Williams mentioned a strategy to reinforce dignity and sense of worth. Can I get the witnesses' views on the national anti-poverty strategy and where that is succeeding or failing in achieving what they seek? I am curious about why the after-school programme about which Ms Kearney spoke was shut down.

Vice Chairman

I propose to bank the questions and then refer to the witnesses.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

I welcome everybody. There were some very interesting presentations. We have many good organisations that work in poverty and deal with the theory but these witnesses are involved in practice. We are dealing with extreme poverty. There is a general perception that we have moved away from having much extreme poverty, although there is some. We have the statistics, but what is the witnesses' view on whether there is an unacceptable level of extreme poverty in Ireland?

Deputy Michael McGrath

I, too, welcome the witnesses and thank them for their sincere and heartfelt presentations. It is important we interact with people who have real life experience of the issues we discuss at this committee. I would be interested in the recommendations Mr. Williams will make and would like to hear the specific proposals ATD Fourth World and the other agencies wish to make to help address the situation. Many thousands of people are affected. The presentation refers to up to 750,000 people living in poverty in Ireland. There are different degrees of poverty. In recent times we have heard the emergence of the term "working poverty", people who have their own home but who pay a mortgage and child care costs and experience a modern type of poverty in Ireland of 2008. I welcome the fact that Mr. Williams is holding monthly cross-community meetings. It is important that as much information as possible is made available to people affected by poverty about rights and entitlements. Much of my work as a Deputy involves providing information to people who are not aware of the support services, programmes, rights and entitlements they have under the system. Sometimes there is a lack of awareness of this and that is why his work on it is particularly important. I look forward to the delegation's recommendations which we can discuss.

Deputy Catherine Byrne

I thank the witnesses for their presentation. I express my sincere thanks to Ms Maher, Mr. Lynch and Ms Kearney for coming in and expressing their life experiences. I will not ask a question. When I was elected in 1999 the south-west inner city was part of my ward. It was an eye-opener for me to go into many of the flat complexes and see the deprivation and the standards in which people were being asked to live. In many of the flat complexes that has not changed. There are great needs out there. This committee is about extending support, particularly to families in need and people who, as Ms Maher said, have taken the huge step of returning to education. Ms Maher described the experience of getting her son back into school after he left and said that she has also gone back to education. As a mother I firmly believe the only road to getting on in life is through education and we must support people like Ms Maher who have the initiative to take the first step.

To Ms Kearney and Mr. Lynch, in family life, especially when rearing children, one faces all kinds of difficulties. One of the most significant difficulties I faced in representing the people in the south-west inner city was the lack of money coming into a household. As others said, sometimes when one meets people they do not understand their entitlements. That is part of the problem out there. We must identify with people who have not the ways and means to find out what their needs are. We need to support those people and be on the ground with them.

I welcome my dear friend Dr. Doherty, whom I have known for many years working in the inner city. I compliment the work he did with VISTA, particularly in the south-west inner city. People such as Dr. Doherty are an inspiration to people working in a community and they give them the help they need and prepare them to stand up. Coming in here today is an ordeal for me, so it must be a huge ordeal for the witnesses too. I congratulate ATD Fourth World. This is the type of group we need to meet more of and focus on in this committee.

I was delighted when the co-ordinator began by talking about poverty in Ireland because some people do not believe there is poverty in Ireland. There are people here from Cherry Orchard and the inner city. If one walks around those two areas it is identifiable that there is poverty in Ireland and these are the people we should deal with. I thank them for their presentation and I hope they continue to see education as part of their lives' experiences and that of their children.

Senator Nicky McFadden

I also welcome the delegates and I appreciate how difficult it is to speak about one's life. I appreciate how precious their families are to them and I share their concerns in that regard.

I will put one question to the co-ordinator, Mr. Williams. What does ATD Fourth World do? He says it reinforces people's human dignity and their sense of worth. I accept there is a need to co-ordinate services but is ATD Fourth World physically involved in providing money for light for people's houses? Many people have to live in bed and breakfast accommodation. Does the group help the homeless? I am really frustrated because in Athlone, where I am from, many people are on the housing list but there are no houses. In order to keep one's family together one must have a house. Many organisations work on the issue but there are no houses. I do not say ATD Fourth World has not been relevant but how can we bridge the gap and achieve practical results so that families can stay together?

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I welcome Mr. Williams, Ms Maher, Mr. Lynch, Ms Kearney and their colleagues. I agree with other members that it is important to meet them so that we can gain an understanding of what is happening on the ground. Do they believe there are too many agencies helping the underprivileged? Would it be better if there were just one, specifically for the task? I was interested in what Ms Maher said about her son. Is there not a home-school liaison officer for that purpose? If there is such an officer, is he or she of any benefit? Does Aontas provide her with any support for lifelong learning? Lifelong learning is vital for all of us. Do the delegates come across any voluntary housing associations which can support the building of social and sheltered accommodation units?

Deputy Seymour Crawford

I congratulate Deputy O'Connor as Vice Chairman of the committee. I welcome Mr. Williams and his colleagues. I come from a somewhat different background and, living in rural Ireland, I cannot say I appreciate all the difficulties about which the delegates have spoken relating to flatland. However, I am worried about some of the issues Deputy Michael McGrath mentioned earlier, such as high mortgages, the high cost of child care and high oil prices, which not only affect the poor but also those in the middle income bracket.

I am also worried about people living in isolated areas. There is a high level of deaths from car accidents in this country but an even higher level as a result of suicides, many of which are caused by problems and anxieties we do not see. Two recent cases brought that issue home to us and highlighted the way tragic things can happen when people experience problems with which we are not fully in touch.

Ms Kearney mentioned family life. We all know of situations where families split up and the father cannot get accommodation. The wife and her partner and children may be able to stay where they are but if the father cannot live somewhere locally it causes even more stress. We must look very seriously at how we can ensure there is accommodation for people in those circumstances.

I welcome the frank, open comments the delegates made on the serious problems that exist, such as those relating to the education of Ms Maher's son. If people do not at least complete second level education it will be very hard for them to get a job in later life. The cost of that, not just to the family but to the State, is extraordinary but we have a long way to go in that regard.

I have been a member of this committee for a long time and I thought we had met all the relevant groups. However, this is the first time I have met the delegates present today. I am interested in the work they do and the fact that they are an international group which encourages people to help themselves and make sure they know their own worth. They have presented their case in a very co-ordinated and structured way.

Senator Martin Brady

I welcome the delegation. Mr. Williams outlined what the group's role covered. I was interested in what Ms Maher said about her son dropping out of school because I knew of a similar case some years ago. Unfortunately, inadequate attention was paid to his plight and the man, who is 30 years old, has now been missing for the past three weeks. The case shows how tragedy can result from such circumstances.

I interact with the Society of St. Vincent de Paul in my own area and I once dealt with a person who had been a good family man but became depressed, started drinking and became homeless. He lived in a car near the inner city and I used to ring him on his mobile telephone. I was passing by a pub in Raheny one night and saw him coming out. It was near Christmas time and he asked if I could get him back in. I told him not to worry about the pub and brought him to my house. I invited him for Christmas dinner but he did not arrive on Christmas Day, instead arriving the day after St. Stephen's Day. He was hardly able to eat. I had liaised with the welfare officer but inadequate attention was paid to him. I knew he was going to do something and he ultimately committed suicide.

Many people do not understand such situations and ask how poverty can exist. They say everybody is well off and has plenty of money. Social welfare benefits are very good so they ask what its recipients are doing with the money. They say they must not be spending it properly. Can Mr. Williams give a definition of poverty? He said 700,000 lived in poverty but what can be done about that? Has he identified any areas which are being neglected and what would he prioritise in that context?

This meeting has been very interesting because it has been a down to earth discussion without convoluted jargon. That is what we want and it is interesting to hear, at first hand, the experiences of the people affected. In the area I represent, Donaghmede and Darndale, a lot of money has been provided and we have more agencies than we have ever had. What agencies does ATD Fourth World interact with? What is its specific role? Does it interact with the Society of St. Vincent de Paul? I am sick and tired of people saying there is no poverty and that everybody is very rich and driving around in big cars. People complain about the fact that those on social welfare get new houses while they have to buy theirs but I know of three-bedroomed houses in which eight or nine people live. Sometimes two families may be in the one house, which is an explosive position. Rows can begin and the families become dysfunctional. Some members may be on the road living rough. There is no point in me preaching this to the witnesses but I wish to put it into the open. I thank the members for listening.

Vice Chairman

I thank the Senator. We now have approximately ten minutes for Mr. Williams to deal with those items and to provide a summary.

Mr. Stuart Williams

I thank members for their questions. We will try to share the responses and I will ask Ms Maher, Mr. Lynch and Ms Kearney to respond to some questions in a moment. I will respond initially by giving our definition of poverty, as a number of questions referred to the numbers of people in poverty and the levels of poverty.

The person who founded ATD Fourth World in France was a Catholic priest who himself had lived in poverty. He introduced into French legislation a definition of poverty based on the notion of insecurity. That is to say that people have securities in their life but they also have insecurities. When these insecurities accumulate, that person may come to a position where he or she cannot do anything to change things. If there is no security with regard to housing, financial income, children's education or health, the strength and resourcefulness to act is taken away.

This definition of poverty has been adopted by the United Nations and it is very helpful. It takes us from one level of poverty to another. We use the term "relative poverty" in Ireland and somebody in relative poverty might be vulnerable or insecure in certain areas of life. Those in consistent poverty in Ireland are in what we might refer to as an entrenched level of poverty. These are people we would see as having accumulated many insecurities. When that happens, a person is in the position where he or she cannot, of his or her own volition, do something to change his or her life.

Perhaps my colleagues would like to pick up on particular questions.

Ms Tina Kearney

A question was asked about why after-school projects were closed down. Money was taken from children in the flats to put 35 year old women back into work. They took the money they were giving to the children, closed down the projects and set up a women's group to help women aged 35 and older get back into employment.

Deputy Olwyn Enright

There was only one lot of money and they took it from that.

Ms Tina Kearney

Yes. We basically had two groups, with one for the younger children and one for older children robbing cars, drinking on corners and causing havoc in the flats. From the time we opened the project for them we had no trouble, such as car robberies. They used to get a small amount of money for going to it and if they robbed cars, the money was taken off them. For the time we had the project there were no car robberies. It was great and the participants went out on trips. All of a sudden we went to work and were told the money was being taken away to put 35 year old women back into work and the project would be closed down.

There is an after-school club but it is privately run. There is only room for 14 children in an area which has approximately 300 homes. Each one of the homes has between two and ten children. The privately run after-school club can only take 14 children. That is what Dublin corporation is doing.

Mr. Stuart Williams

A number of questions concerned what ATD Fourth World does. It was set up to identify and reach the people who have the harshest experience of poverty. Our constant occupation is the people who are missing out, not only on an active and fulfilling life but on projects and programmes which seek to provide support. Who are the people not necessarily getting the benefits and educational supports to which they are entitled, or the backing to find somewhere secure to live and bring up their children?

Our constant occupation is to focus on people whose lives are especially difficult. These are the people who are hardest to reach and engage with. We see that as our principal responsibility and we would not be alone in having concerns for people like that. We try to join forces with people, other organisations, community groups, voluntary groups and sometimes people in statutory agencies who carry that concern for those who are marginalised.

All our work is based on our interaction with people who have the harshest experience of poverty and the most insecurities. We try to respond to the issues they tell us are most important in their lives. Everywhere we work, in Guatemala, Haiti, east New York or some of the slums in Paris, almost the first preoccupation of families is the education of the children. That is seen as the principal key to children having a different future to their parents.

ADT Fourth World provides, in different ways and in different places, educational support, simple street and education programmes that reach the children who have the greatest difficulty at school. We engage in those programmes with children's parents. In Ireland we are not doing that at the moment and our principal programme is what we call the cross-community meetings to which we have referred.

With the cross-community meetings, we prepare with other voluntary organisations, community groups, Traveller groups and people in contact with families in direct provision accommodation to bring together between 30 and 60 people who have a severe and difficult experience of poverty. The idea is not to inform people of their benefits, their rights or what they should or should not be doing but to enable them to come together and feel they belong somewhere. Most of the people my colleagues and I would be involved with would be those who do not feel they belong anywhere. They feel life is not for them and they do not have the opportunities which they expect everybody to have.

We bring people together and the most important aspect, we are told, is that people come into a room where they feel they belong and are respected. They feel nobody is going to ask them questions and to justify why they act in this way or that. It is a coming together.

The other aspect of the cross-community meetings is to enable people to express things that are important in their lives. It is to create times and spaces where the factors people carry in their lives, such as the difficulties, joys, successes, birthdays and achievements, can find an audience. During the year we have a theme, which might be the efforts we are making on behalf of our children or the efforts we are making to get people out of bed and breakfast accommodation into somewhere secure. It might be the relationship between poverty and human rights, where we think our human rights are being violated or are not being defended. These themes will be carried through the year and we share them in discussion form.

I ask Mr. Hogan to refer to those cross-community meetings because he has been an active supporter of them for many years.

Vice Chairman

Mr. Hogan is welcome to do so.

Mr. Mark Hogan

I am director of services with St. Vincent's Trust, which is a Daughters of Charity service based in the north inner city. We provide a range of community education social projects for people who perhaps have not benefited from the mainstream as they would have hoped. We are part of a national committee of the 17 October commemoration. Mr. Williams mentioned that is included in the UN day for the eradication of poverty. That is one of the principal activities of ATD in Ireland and it is an occasion where, at the Famine memorial on the quays, the voices of those people whose lives are most difficult are heard first. Other people are also there, be they politicians or those working with agencies on behalf of the poorest, but it is an occasion where the voice of those whose lives are most difficult are to the fore. We hope this presentation is some kind of expression of that.

We all know that to link up with the most vulnerable families is an extremely challenging task and they often do not pick up on services. The experience of St. Vincent's Trust is that the issue of outreach is critical; I am sure other people in this room who work in the field of poverty in both rural and inner city areas agree.

ATD Fourth World made a deliberate attempt to make outreach efforts to vulnerable communities in Clondalkin, Ballymun and other areas of Dublin when it first came to Ireland in 2001, particularly through its volunteer sector that includes Stuart and Isabelle Williams. Relationships of trust were established with people in an effort to bring them together through the forum of cross-community meetings, which, as Mr. Williams explained, are held once a month. The purpose of these meetings is not to examine policy or service provision but to provide a safe, secure environment where people whose lives are harsh feel they can express their experience of poverty. This might sound a rather trite comment but this area is often undervalued. It is important that the first critical step in engaging with people whose lives are most difficult is to offer a safe environment in which their voices can be heard. This is what we try to do at cross-community meetings. Much of our work in the past year has been in the area of the education system because many of the parents we deal with have found that their children experience enormous difficulties in the mainstream schooling system. There have been many discussions involving people from local communities on how to improve this situation.

Vice Chairman

I invite Mr. Williams to make a brief final statement.

Mr. Stuart Williams

Could we put forward our recommendations?

Vice Chairman

If they are included as part of a brief final statement.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Can Mr. Williams address the matter of the funding of the organisation and how many people work with him, including volunteers and professionals?

Mr. Stuart Williams

We are a team of four permanent staff that works from a base at 31 Mountjoy Square. Committee members are invited to drop in to see us if they are passing. Much of our work involves volunteers and at the moment we have about 20, young and old, who help with different aspects of our work. Like many voluntary organisations, we are funded through a variety of sources, including trust funds and private grants. We receive support, from time to time, from the Combat Poverty Agency in connection with both the UN day for the eradication of poverty and a programme the agency ran on the participation of people in poverty in policy making. We also depend on donations from individuals as they give us freedom to explore areas of poverty in which we are not already engaged. This type of funding is very important for us.

We wish to put three recommendations on the table. The first stems from our ambition to enable people in poverty to become part of policy making and hold discussions with people like the committee members in a safe and secure environment. We recommend to the joint committee that consideration be given to the establishment of a national anti-poverty commission comprising representation from the Government, the voluntary community and, most importantly, people affected by poverty. Unlike other fora, the purpose of this commission would not be to examine specific issues related to poverty or policies but to create an official enabling space where people whose lives are most blighted by poverty can share their stories of what it means for them, their children and their families to live in poverty. The commission would allow them explain the struggles they and their communities are engaged in that require proper support.

Mr. Mark Hogan

Our second recommendation relates to the area of family research. This field is comparatively new in Ireland and the recent completion of the first phase of the family research programme, under the auspices of the Family Support Agency, has gone some way to bridge the research gap. It is of interest that an evaluation report of the family research programme highlighted three critical factors that influence family well-being. The first factor is the personal characteristics of parents. The second factor is family processes, especially relating to how problems are dealt with and conflicts resolved in a family. The third factor is the socio-economic environment.

It is of further interest that in the research studies in the family research programme that deal with the most vulnerable people, whom we have tried to represent today, for example, the study of vulnerable fathers and their families by Ferguson and Hogan, 2004, and the young men on the margins study by Cleary et al, 2004, issues relating to socio-economic environment proved very significant. It is well known that young people from disadvantaged communities are the least likely to achieve positive educational outcomes.

While the evaluation report of the family research programme recommends a number of themes and groups to be the subject of research for the programme's second phase, we would like to see a specific research focus on very vulnerable families that are often hardest to reach when it comes to family support services and other community support services. ATD's fourth world policy and advocacy work at the level of the UN and Council of Europe has been underpinned over the years by considerable research management experience that centres on and actively involves the most vulnerable families.

Dr. Ger Doherty

I have a third recommendation that is very brief. In August, the UN Human Rights Council's sub-commission on the promotion and protection of human rights adopted draft guiding principles on extreme poverty and human rights, the rights of the poor. I will not go into it in detail but it requests that the effects on human rights of policies designed to counteract poverty should be considered. How will such policies promote the dignity and human rights of the people concerned? The UN Human Rights Council has referred the draft guidelines to governments all over the world and the Irish Government should have them. We want the joint committee to determine the reaction or response of the Government to the draft guidelines.

Vice Chairman

Those matters will be noted by the committee and I invite Mr. Williams to--

Senator Nicky McFadden

Could we have a copy of the document referred to?

Vice Chairman

I was just going to ask that. It would help if Mr. Williams could formally submit the items to the committee and I know my colleagues are interested in having the document referred to.

Mr. Mark Hogan

Could we conclude with an invitation?

Mr. Stuart Williams

Members are invited to join us on 17 October on the quays by the famine statues where we will commemorate the international day for the eradication of poverty. Speakers will be those with experience of poverty and this year will be rather special because we will unveil a commemorative stone, close to the famine statues, which is a copy of a commemorative stone laid in Paris in 1987 by the founder of ATD Fourth World that sparked the UN to adopt 17 October as the international day for the eradication of poverty. Committee members are welcome to join us for that event.

Vice Chairman

Perhaps when Mr. Williams is writing to us he could confirm that invitation. Dubliners, including Deputy Catherine Byrne and I, will certainly attend.

Senator Nicky McFadden

We will go as well.

Vice Chairman

That is fine. I did not say the Senator would not attend; I said Dubliners would. I was impressed with what Deputy Catherine Byrne said earlier. Many people think I am from Tallaght but I am from the south inner city and I am proud of that fact. It is good that the delegates have attended today as these sessions are very worthwhile. I thank them for their attendance as we have had a thought provoking discussion. I look forward to seeing the delegates again.

Mr. Stuart Williams

We would welcome an opportunity to meet the committee again in due course.

Vice Chairman

I now invite delegates from the Pensions Board to join us.