I welcome from the Family Support Agency Mr. Michael O'Kennedy, SC, chairperson; Mr. Pat Bennett, chief executive officer; Ms Muriel Walls, board member; Ms Polly Phillimore, services manager, family mediation service, and Mr. Bill O'Dea, assistant principal officer. I invite Mr. Bennett to begin the presentation on the role and functions of the Family Support Agency. The delegates are very welcome.
Role and Functions: Discussion with Family Support Agency.
Mr. Michael O’ Kennedy
Míle buíochas as ucht an cuireadh teacht ar ais anseo. We are happy to be back and are sorry that in view of the clash on the last rather special day, we were unable to continue. We are sorry that because of competition with other understandable obligations of members of this committee in the Dáil at this very moment, the committee's numbers are necessarily diminished. I appreciate the presence of the members who are here. We would like to report to the fullest possible membership so I suggest that whenever we are called before the committee again — it is always a privilege — it might be possible to co-ordinate to ensure that the members of this committee who are currently understandably engaged in asking questions of the Minister in the Dáil would be free to attend here.
That said, I will say a few brief introductory words. The committee has the information sheet we sent out. Our functions as a family support agency are set out very clearly and simply in section 4 of the Family Support Agency Act 2001. I was here when this Act was put through the Dáil. This is contained in pages 7 and 8 of the committee's pack and summarises it very precisely so I will not go over it in any detail.
Our board has ten members. There are two vacancies at present. Of those ten members, one is a representative from the Department of Social and Family Affairs, which ensures a degree of co-ordination which we all greatly welcome. The committee has met our chief executive, Pat Bennett, who is accompanied by Muriel Walls, Polly Phillimore and Bill O'Dea, who is responsible for administration.
We were established in May 2003. Since then, there has been significant growth both in our activities and budget. In particular, I express our appreciation for the increase that has been made available to our budget. That said, one of the things about which we are really proud and which would accord with the committee's priorities as public representatives is the fact that we probably have the lowest administration budget proportionally in the public service. A total of 5.6% of our total budget goes on administration. The rest goes on direct service through the various activities about which the committee will hear from Mr. Bennett in a moment.
When it started in May 2003, there were 58 family resource centres. There are now 106 centres which cover a range of different socio-economic conditions. Some of them are what one would call state of the art, a term which is used a lot these days. Others are in very depressed social environments. Wherever they are, they are tailored to servicing the community where they are located. The committee can ask questions of my colleagues in respect of these centres.
We also have the family mediation service, which is a very important element of our activities. As a family lawyer from one of the top firms in the country, Ms Walls is an expert in that area. In that area, we have 12 outlets for family mediation. Generally, the courts encourage people to avail of our services before the courts make a final determination. We would greatly welcome if this would be advertised and broadcast. Where there is inevitable breakdown and people have decided that is it, our mediation service can help to minimise the damage and the impact on the children. It is a very professional service, if I may say modestly. We have 12 to 16 of those around the country, with a satellite office in Ballymun.
I acknowledge that our budget has increased from €19 million when we began in 2003 to €39.38 million to 2008. Having been a member of the Oireachtas for 38 years, I am very conscious of our obligations to use that budget according to targets that we and the committee could share. For that reason, we are very happy to come back today to account to the committee. I will ask Mr. Bennett, who is the chief executive of our organisation, to address the committee. If the committee has any specific questions about specific activities, it should feel free to ask them.
Mr. Pat Bennett
I thank the Chairman and members of the committee. It is an honour to appear before it today. We last appeared before this committee in July 2005. I would like to report on many of the developments since then. It is often forgotten that as a new organisation in 2003, we had to build up the internal structure. I pay compliment to Mr. O'Dea on our corporate services side for all that because it is the piece of work that is not seen but is the engine of the organisation that needs to keep going so it is very important.
Since the agency was set up in 2003, the family resource centres have gone from strength to strength from 59 to 106. The family mediation service has developed from 12 to 16 offices in the same period. We support over 560 counselling organisations around the country in respect of marriage, relationship, child and bereavement counselling services.
One of our concerns as an agency is that even with this expansion in the family mediation service, waiting lists continue to rise. Again, it is obviously because of the increase in divorce and separation. One of the important and newer things about the family mediation service is that it deals with matters primarily where children are involved. Many couples would not be married or have never been married and couples who are separated come to the service as well, which has increased demands on it.
In Dublin, Cork, Waterford, Wexford, Castlebar and Portlaoise, waiting lists stand at five to six months. Again, two to three months is an acceptable timeframe in respect of it because couples must get used to the idea of separating because that process takes time but six months is a bit too long, which is the other side of it. Ms Phillimore can talk in more detail about the family mediation service but we are very conscious about being able to give supports to couples as soon as possible. The real focus in the family mediation service is to ensure an ongoing parenting relationship between both parents and the children. That is key to us.
I am pleased to say that since 2005, our research function has at last taken off. We did not have resources for the first two years. With resources in place, we have managed to carry out two significant pieces of research so far, one of which was on the first family research programme, while the other one was on counselling, its effectiveness and the counselling scheme. A number of other research projects are in the pipeline at the moment, looking at family formation over the last number of censuses. Another project is focusing on child and family contact centres where the non-residential parent will have access to children in a supervised setting. Again, we are looking at the research on that area. One of the big pieces we are doing at the moment is a look at the family mediation service, which has been in operation for 22 years. We are anxious to discover the contribution it has made to society and the future contribution it can make and to be led into how we should be developing the service. When we talk about waiting lists, we must be more creative about how we can try and support that aspect.
Our advisory role to the Minister is always extremely important. We have made a number of submissions on the proposals for supporting those who parent alone, the in camera rule and in respect of a number of strategic objectives of Government around child benefit, etc. We have made a number of these submissions over the years. Again, our role around advice is really important.
It is important to note that the funding for counselling since 1997 has increased elevenfold. I am not saying that is enough because there are huge demands out there and the committee knows it better than I because it is at the coalface in respect of the communities and people who need services. One of the areas on which the agency has focused considerably in the past couple of years is child counselling, particularly in cases of separation, and the need to support children. This can be done either on an individual basis or through the rainbows programmes or schools programmes. We see our role as supporting the communities to support the organisations out there. Other than family mediation and providing the necessary supports to the community, we do not see ourselves as being directly involved.
I will not take up any more time because I know the committee is anxious to ask a number of questions. We very much appreciate the invitation to appear here today and look forward to answering whatever questions we can. We will bring anything we cannot answer back to the committee.
I welcome the delegation from the agency to the committee. I have only very positive things to say about my experience of the agency. In my constituency of Dublin Central it plays a key role as a resource for people who find themselves in stringent and upsetting circumstances. Any experience I have had with referrals has been positive. I am delighted to see funding increasing because the service needs to be expanded. The more widespread and accessible it is, the better. In some communities it is the last resort to get support or information on legal or welfare rights.
We have experience of new communities with different family structures, cultures and practices. Is any work done on language barriers? There are now 29 ethnic backgrounds in one primary school. Communication with parents is a major issue for teachers and they find it difficult.
Mr. Michael O’Kennedy
Deputy Brady is right to point out the changes in family formations. We greatly appreciate the role in communication that resource centres play. From my visits around the country, and I will not name names, it varies from place to place. In some cases it is a place where a woman can get a cup of tea as a relief from the tension in the house. On another level we have highly sophisticated services in Waterford. I appreciate the support and recognition of the members. Family is not defined in the Act and that is done deliberately. We thought we should examine the type of families we serve. There are 22 types of family unit, which is very different from my father's time. I invite Mr. Bennett and Ms Walls, who is the expert in the area, to contribute.
I welcome the delegation and thank it for the briefing note. I am glad to have the opportunity to engage because I always thought Mr. O'Kennedy was a straight and honourable politician. I am glad to meet him.
Mr. Michael O’Kennedy
I will leave now because I cannot improve on that.
Mr. Bennett referred to doing research and an allocation of €582,000. What type of research is he doing? Reference was made to research on the effects of counselling services. I am interested in the effects of counselling. How does one gauge whether people benefit from it?
I welcome the campaigns on positive parenting and the rights of the unmarried father. What progress has been made on unmarried fathers? I have interacted with the mediation service for people who live in my constituency. I am aware of the waiting list and five to six months is not acceptable. Can we secure further funding from Government to shorten the waiting time? Ongoing positive relations between parents will only benefit children.
Mr. Pat Bennett
With regard to Deputy Brady's question, a number of family resource centres are working through translators. The National Consultative Committee on Racism and Interculturalism is working with family resource centres to develop practices and engage with people in different communities. Ms Phillimore will refer to the family mediation service.
Regarding Senator McFadden's comment on counselling, a report was carried out by Kieran McKeown on the effectiveness of counselling. People who had been through counselling were interviewed. Some 66% of people found counselling very effective. One of the interesting things is that it was not the qualifications of the counsellor that determined this but the empathy and personality. That is important in life in general. One can have a qualification but it is how it is used that is important.
The child and family contact centre is being examined for non-residential parents. We are examining the change in family formation since the last census. We are examining a review of attitudes to family formation to get a perspective from society. We carried out research on the first family research programme to get some direction for the next phase. We were asked to examine the matter of new communities and the factors in marriage break-up. ACCORD carried out research on newly married couples. One of the problems was the shock of being married and the understanding of what that meant. I am sorry if I am upsetting everyone in the audience.
Mr. Michael O’Kennedy
I never heard it put so dramatically.
Mr. Pat Bennett
Perhaps the word "shock" was not used.
It is a readjustment.
Mr. Pat Bennett
One of the issues was not having discussed the expectation of marriage, whether to have children, or who will manage the family or home circumstances if both parents are working. The research function is very important and the major project this year is the effectiveness of the family mediation service. Ms Walls will deal with family formation and Ms Phillimore will deal with translation services in family mediation.
Ms Muriel Walls
I am one of the lawyers on the board. Having been involved in family law it is obvious that family is not strictly confined to the family based on marriage as it is under the Constitution. Sometimes one thinks the family based on married parents living together is the exception rather than the norm. In the course of our work we had to consider what we meant by family in being a family support agency. There is major diversity in families and we service the needs of all families that come to us through the resource centres or the mediation service. Those who can access the mediation service include parents who are unmarried, grandparents parenting the children, single mothers who need the services of the family resource centres, siblings who are parenting siblings and men who are not the biological fathers but acting as step parents to children. The variation is diverse and we try to meet the needs of the family units that present.
It is very difficult to measure success in counselling. As a lawyer who deals with marital breakdown, I would say that even if the counselling is not successful in the sense that the couple remain married to each other or committed to each other in a relationship, going through the counselling process often gives them a greater understanding why their relationship has not worked. It can give them a better understanding of where the other person in the relationship is coming from and sometimes a greater respect for whatever painful decisions that had to be made in the counselling process. That, in turn, can ease the pain of a separation process. Therefore, even if it is not a success in counselling statistics, having gone through the process gives everyone a greater understanding and eases the pain of the separation process.
Ms Polly Phillimore
I just want to endorse what Ms Walls said in terms of the diversity of the people using the service over the last 21 years. At the beginning, they were only married couples but now include all the categories of couples, including same-sex couples. Even those who have been involved in a one-night stand come to us for mediation because they do not know each other's values and have no common ground from which to mediate. The process has become much more complex.
On the issue of language and translation, last year 90% of the clients were Irish, which leaves a substantial minority who were not. We work with interpreters with clients. There are a lot of mixed-nationality marriages that are breaking down and we can cater for their needs.
I welcome the delegation from the Family Support Agency and, like Senator McFadden, I particularly welcome Mr. Michael O'Kennedy, who has given many years of tremendous public service. It is great to see someone at the end of such a career continuing to provide service in whatever capacity he can. He has made an enormous contribution in this area and will continue to do so.
I am very pleased to see in the agency's mission statement a reference to the promotion of family and community well-being. We need much more of that in general. There are two pillars of society, the family unit and the community, both of which have been under attack in recent years. The breakdown of the traditional family unit has contributed to a lot of the problems in Irish society today. We are still grappling with that and it is an issue which is evolving constantly. I would welcome more research on the reasons the traditional family unit is breaking down, the consequences of that and what can be done by politicians at policy level to restore those values sets as best we can within the constraints of modern society.
I am interested in the views of the delegation on the underlying reasons for the changes that are taking place. The Family Support Agency is dealing on a day-to-day basis with people who are going through difficulties. I agree with Senator McFadden on the length of the waiting list. It sounds like people have to wait a very long time for mediation services, particularly in the main cities. If couples are in difficulty, waiting up to six months must be very hard for them. As with so many other areas, early intervention is extremely important and can help to resolve difficulties before they become entrenched.
I welcome the fact that the agency places a lot of emphasis on keeping cases out of the family law courts by providing mediation. Success in that area is crucial because we are all aware of the outcome of cases going to family law court. It can result in lasting scars, enduring bitterness and very often it is the children involved who suffer the most in the long term.
The report mentions that the family mediation service has been provided to up to 1,500 couples. To what extent has the agency had success with those cases? Would those cases involve couples who are about to break up who do not do so or cases where they will break up anyway and the agency wants to keep them out of court? I am interested in a general profile of clients and the type of success the agency has had with them.
Most groups that appear before the committee have a wish list and ask us as politicians to help them in their work. An increase in the agency's budget is an obvious one, but are there other areas where we can be of assistance, for example, with legislation, new policies or initiatives and so forth? If that question cannot be answered today, perhaps the agency can forward its wish list to us subsequent to the meeting.
I apologise for being late. Mr. O'Kennedy will understand when I say that one of his legal colleagues, Deputy Jim O'Keeffe, arrived into my office to discuss some urgent business and held me up. I welcome the delegation and congratulate and thank Mr. O'Kennedy for taking on this role. He certainly has given long service to this country and the European community.
When I was first elected to the Dáil 16 years ago, the main issue to be dealt with in my constituency of Cavan-Monaghan was potholes. The constituency was renowned for them. There were also some problems with farm grants and other items. Nowadays, unfortunately, a significant amount of my constituency work involves family problems. My office, for example, deals with queries regarding housing for individual men and general economic problems caused by splits in families.
Reference was made to the fact that people were not aware of the consequences of getting married. I know of a couple, for example, who had three children and were not married. They lost some of their social welfare benefits when they got married and ended up in severe economic difficulty. They were urged to get married by their cleric and parents, whom I commend on doing so. However, they did not realise the implications of it. We must ensure our society is such that people are not encouraged to live outside marriage solely because of economic concerns.
The agency's budget is now €38 million. Is it satisfied with that or would increased funding alleviate some of the problems mentioned by Deputy McGrath, particularly the delay in seeing clients? If a couple has a problem which is allowed to fester for a further six months before they can see someone about it, the chances of solving the problem become more remote. Obviously it could cost a lot more to the State in the long term.
We will also have to deal with the economic problem caused by the fact that many middle income families have committed themselves to very sizeable mortgages and other borrowings and are finding the situation a lot more difficult today, particularly if one partner loses a job. This is where organisations such as the Family Support Agency are badly needed to help such families out in whatever ways possible. Discussing the issues with such families and trying to deal with them in a practical way can be of enormous benefit.
There is much talk, and rightly so, of the seriousness of the road death situation in this country. We have done much to tackle this problem, including appointing Mr. Gay Byrne as chairman of the Road Safety Authority. However we have far more suicides. Suicide is becoming so normal as to be frightening. Much of that is coming about from the breakdown of the family and religious beliefs. So few people of any denomination go to their place of worship compared to a number of years ago and they have nowhere to turn. When one sees high profile people as well as ordinary people feeling they have no future other than suicide it is very dangerous.
I commend the Family Support Agency on its work. If I can give any help through the Oireachtas I will be only too glad to do so. I do not ask that question on funding glibly because everybody wants more funding. If the agency got more funding how could it use it to improve the situation?
I am delighted the Family Support Agency has had an increase in its funding. It is obvious that it needs it because of the number of problems we have in many areas, particularly in Dublin, which I represent. I thank the agency for the presentation and it is nice to see Mr. Bennett again. We had a good working relationship on the ERHA.
I am familiar with the work of a small number of family centres, particularly one or two in my area of Dublin. They support families in crisis in what we describe as "deprived" areas, although I hate that word. They have been very useful and resourceful. Most of the problems I encounter when I visit family resource centres is lack of funding for staffing, lack of a proper building and the fact that space is always very limited. Some staff are in a flat complex where they use one or two rooms that are not adequate for the services they provide. With the RAPID programmes in Dublin many of the places where we see much deprivation are ring-fenced. Many of these family resource centres have rooted themselves and seem to deal with just a section of people in a circle while those outside seem to be excluded. I do not know whether that is because they are ring-fenced in RAPID areas or because many of them are based in flat complexes. I do not know whether the witnesses can answer that.
The report states that the Family Support Agency has 106 centres and on the next page it refers to another four. Are those four included in the figure of 106?
Mr. Pat Bennett
The four are the family mediation centres and they are in addition to the 106.
Will Mr. Bennett tell us where those four mediation centres are?
Mr. Pat Bennett
Yes, indeed.
Will Mr. Bennett tell me how many of the 106 family resource centres are based in Dublin?
Mr. Pat Bennett
I will get to that in a few seconds.
I extend fíor fáilte to the group, especially to my fellow county men. Like previous speakers, I welcome the chairman of the Family Support Agency and thank him for his service over the years in many roles and for giving to this House his time, energy and considerable talents out of retirement. I welcome the board members and their staff. I thank them for their presentation. I compliment them on their work and wish them continued success. They are not here with a long shopping list but I, too, welcome the increased funding. It is money well spent. It is alarming to see the 20 different types of family units. Not as far back as our fathers' time but in recent times there was only one type. It is a sign that times have changed and there is greater need for more groups such as this one, a more structured approach and more permanent organisations to make available advice for early intervention in many areas.
I welcome the Family Support Agency board and staff members. I join in the cross-party praise for the agency's work and I am grateful to it. I have a couple of questions and Ms Walls, for whom I used to work in McCann Fitzgerald, might be able to answer them. To what extent do solicitors in some cases undermine the mediation process? If one goes to a solicitor as a family law client he or she has a duty to explain mediation and reconciliation. However, I have seen solicitors in practice telling clients to forget about that. I had a client to whom I recommended mediation as more than just a formality and the couple subsequently got back together. However, the wife's solicitor came back and told me to forget about mediation and that we would issue proceedings. Is that a significant problem in practice? In my limited experience of family law in a town practice in Drogheda, alcohol-related problems contributed to many marriage breakdowns. Has the Family Support Agency seen that in the cases it has come across?
I am sorry for being late, I was tied up. I welcome the Family Support Agency, which is doing great work. The 16 family mediation centres scattered throughout the country are probably located in main urban centres. How would a community project tap into the Family Support Agency and put a proposal to it to establish a new mediation service outreaching from it? Would it contact the Family Support Agency directly and would it have to come up with firm proposals or a case study on the area? How many staff has the Family Support Agency and what element of its budget is expended on staff?
Mr. Michael O’Kennedy
May I make a brief comment and pass on to my colleagues? It is very encouraging for us to get such a warm, positive response. It is a great privilege for me to be chairman of this agency and to have available to me such professionalism and commitment as I could not have anticipated. I am very privileged to have the support and the role. I thank the committee members for their observations on me, which I greatly appreciate. Members have asked about our links to communities and I will let Mr. Bennett and Ms Walls deal with the precise facilities.
One of our mottoes is "Is ar scáth a chéile a mhaireann na daoine". I did not realise it had become a motto, although I was going around saying it at openings of family resource centres. Irish has a great facility for being ambiguous and one can interpret it any way one likes. If one deserves the best, go mbeidh toradh do fhaothar agat, one gets positive results. The word "scáth" can mean shelter or a dark shadow, depending on how it is used. A number of committee members have mentioned that our resource centres do not exist in isolation but can exist only in communities. I said in passing that the communities in which they exist vary widely from places where there is very little social structure — I will not mention any places but members will be aware of them — to others where there is great cohesion.
I was in Donegal recently and will return fairly soon, and one sees there a community in action. The position varies. Our resource centres do not exist in isolation and what the members have been saying from their experience in their various constituencies gives us great encouragement in that sense. I hope we are part of community action. Mr. Bennett and Ms Walls will deal with some precise issues which have been raised relevantly.
Mr. Pat Bennett
Ms Walls, Ms Phillimore and Mr. O'Dea will speak on some of the questions raised. Deputy Michael McGrath asked about reasons for family breakdown and research has shown a number of reasons. A significant reason is that both people in the couple are working. Other reasons are the length of time spent commuting, the lack of affordable and accessible child care and the issue of part-time employment. Alcohol is also a factor in many cases. One of the difficulties being experienced is that the whole social fabric has changed. How often do people see their neighbours? People often talk about how they have not seen anyone all winter. One of our concerns as an organisation is the replacement of social networks. Bebo is availavble for teenagers. They do not go out and meet their friends in town any more but go on the computer instead. I do not think that is a replacement for social interaction and face-to-face communication.
There are several issues around breakdown. Time poverty presents a major problem. Couples do not get an opportunity to discuss issues. People often say they do not have a chance to talk about small things such as whether they bought the newspaper that day or what they saw on the news. We are not talking about complex matters but about simple things. Again, this leads to difficulties in the long run.
Ms Phillimore can talk about the family mediation service. The service is for couples who have decided to separate. In about 60% of cases some level of agreement is reached. The critical aspect as far as we are concerned is to make sure the children have access to both parents on an ongoing basis. There are issues around pensions and where people are to live, but overall we are talking about a figure of around 60%. Ms Phillimore can give us more details. My sense is that if a couple are persuaded to come to mediation at all, it is a success. To get them to come into a room and at least communicate with each other is some level of success, although it may not be measurable in the long run. That in itself is a significant factor.
Deputy Crawford asked about the changing issues and mentioned the issue of accommodation for separated fathers. Some local authorities have been proactive in ensuring houses are assigned for separated fathers, although they are few. It is an ongoing issue and in some cases people are rendered homeless or must live in hostels after separation. That is an awful circumstance.
Deputy Crawford also asked the loaded question of whether we were satisfied with our budget. As Mr. O'Kennedy has pointed out and Mr. O'Dea will mention, the greater part of our budget goes to community groups. We are not into building a big bureaucracy. I argue there were times when we could have done with a few more posts to support the organisation, but in general we are not interested in building a bureaucracy; we want the resources to get out there on the ground where they will have real value. Thus, any additional resources we receive go out into the community. Deputy Crawford also mentioned the waiting list for the family mediation service, an issue to which I will return.
The issue of suicide is absolutely huge. We all know that it is primarily young men who take their own lives — the majority of suicides occur in the 19 to 35 age group. Much of this is related to a lack of social interaction and support. We talk about counselling services, but 30 or 40 years ago people were being counselled by their families and communities. We have become much more formalised in the support we give. The agency still argues that most support is given through families and communities and that the State supports those who do not have such support. Suicide is a societal problem, but we have seen the increase in funding for bereavement services as a real indicator that the incidence of suicide has been on the increase. We know the number of cases reported, but many are still not.
I thank Deputy Byrne for her comments. It is a pleasure to meet her in another environment. She mentioned family resource centres. Under the national development plan, for the first time we acquired capital of €1 million per year — it is not a huge amount of money, but it is something — towards the development of such centres. We see ourselves as being partners with local authorities and other statutory players. We do not want to develop family resource centres in isolation. Services for communities should be grouped in an integrated manner and we can make a contribution towards this process. We have examples all around the country. We are working with Laois County Council to develop a community centre, to which we have given some capital funding. There are 19 family resource centres in Dublin. Four new family mediation offices have opened in the last few years in Sligo, Letterkenny, Portlaoise and Waterford. These are the latest to open; however, there were already services in Blanchardstown, Tallaght and so on.
With regard to staffing, the Deputy is absolutely right: there is a need not only to add new family resource centres but to consider increasing capacity within the existing centres. We took this on board in our submission on the national development plan. For the first time, we actually received additional development workers for existing family resource centres. The aims were twofold: first, to provide additional capacity for local communities; and second, as Deputy Byrne mentioned, to provide outreach services. The development workers were not working in their specific areas but could go to outlying areas and provide support. I do not see the use in placing structures all over the place. We should develop the structures we have in place and build on them. It is not sustainable.
The other big thing about family resource centres is that we are fully dependent on voluntary boards of management. There are only so many volunteers available. We should really be using the volunteers we have to develop the service further. Deputy McGrath mentioned the issue of family type. Ms Walls also mentioned it and it is an issue to which we will return.
The issue of solicitors was mentioned. As my two colleagues are more learned, I will ask them to comment on it. However, I will mention Carol Coulter's report on the family law courts which showed that only 3% of couples had gone through mediation. I often get in trouble for saying this, but solicitors do not wholeheartedly endorse the family mediation service. It has not happened because they have a vested interest. It is a professional, free and confidential service. We also support the development of collaborative law services in which both solicitors talk to each other. This is a positive development and Ms Walls is an expert in the matter. Ms Coulter's report clearly shows that couples have not been coming through the family mediation service. We never recommend that it be mandatory, but what should be mandatory is attendance at an information session in order that couples will at least be aware of what the service does and does not do. Family mediation, like everything else, is not for everybody.
Deputy Carey asked how we would develop outreach services. With regard to family resource centres, there is an application process outlined on our website for groups which wish to seek family resource status based on a number of indicators. The family mediation service is directly run by us. Those who have an interest in the matter should make direct contact with us and we can then consider the needs of their particular area.
Mr. O'Dea will speak about staffing and finance matters, but first I will hand over to Ms Walls.
Ms Muriel Walls
My own observation about referral is that all solicitors have a statutory obligation under divorce legislation to advise their clients about counselling services and to give them the names and addresses of suitably qualified counsellors. The same applies to the mediation service. We are supposed to advise them of the benefits of reaching agreement. The Guardianship of Infants Act also places that obligation on us in the context of children's issues before we issue any proceedings. I am a specialist family lawyer and most of the work I do is with specialist family lawyers. I like to think we not only comply with our statutory obligations by ticking the necessary boxes but that we give people real information on the service, including the details of local centres, how they can be accessed and their telephone numbers, together with an understanding of what the process is about. If we do not explain to clients the possible benefits of the service, they will be unaware of them. Part of the difficulty is that sometimes one can convince a client that it is an excellent way to go, but the other spouse or person in the relationship will not have the same commitment. It requires both parties to participate. There is some work to be done and I try to encourage my colleagues at every opportunity to ensure this is done.
If mediation is successful and the couple agrees terms of separation, is it considered necessary at Ms Walls's level of family law to go before a judge and have the matter ruled on in court?
Ms Muriel Walls
Not necessarily, but it would certainly need to be translated from the memorandum of understanding produced by the family mediation service at the end of a successful mediation into a deed of separation or contract.
Some solicitors seem to go a step further by issuing proceedings and settling them on the basis of an agreement reached during mediation.
Ms Muriel Walls
It depends on whether there are pension adjustment orders that might be——
They might need it but if not, is it professionally negligent? Or might solicitors have worries about possible professional negligence claims if they were to sign off on a mediation agreement to which they were not party?
Ms Muriel Walls
They might have a slight concern concerning breach of contract. If that is the case it is necessary to go down a completely different route whereas if it is a case of non-compliance of court order enforcement mechanisms are readily available. Sometimes the decision is made by considering whether the agreement will stick and be honoured by both sides.
Ms Polly Phillimore
An initiative has been set up recently to try to increase co-operation between lawyers and mediation services. The Law Society has a sub-committee on which there are five lawyers and five mediators. We are working through the process to see if we can work in a more complementary manner. I hope something will come of that.
Mr. Michael O’Kennedy
Before Mr. O'Dea deals with the final point I have an observation. I have worn that hat too, never a family law hat, but a legal hat from time to time. My opinion as a lawyer was that we were uniquely unqualified to deal to with these issues because we represented the interests of our client and our colleagues represented those of their client.
The committee has just heard from the expert in the area, Ms Walls, who is able to give a more sensitive, sophisticated and informed view on this. I must say that, by definition, lawyers are not the first people to be able to help in this area because the client expects the lawyer to represent his or her view and to vindicate that view. That is why anything that the committee members can do, in their very significant role as public representatives, to talk about our mediation service, to promote and encourage people to consult it, would be a huge benefit to us. I am not blaming my fellow lawyers at all, far from it. I believe it would be a great help. We do our best to try to promote our services but the members can help as national public representatives.
I have a final comment regarding another aspect which I imagine will occur to the committee members, as representatives in their own communities. The family resource centres are based on voluntary management. Members will be familiar with what voluntary management involves, whether in a hurling club or whatever. Great commitment and passion are involved, but there is sometimes a certain degree of intolerance of the other position that does not fall into place with one's own. We find that. I do not say that such is a negative from our point of view. It is a measure of voluntary determination. Some of our time is spent trying to minimise the impact of these small local battles, for such they are.
Some of our centres have not progressed to the extent that we would wish. I express my appreciation here to my own staff, and to Mr. Bennett. We try to head these situations off. We go and meet them. If it ever happens that we have no further problems with family resource centres because of their enthusiastic commitment, then we will have a bigger problem. I believe that enthusiasm is very important.
Mr. Bill O’Dea
Regarding the Deputy's question about the staff of the agency, the total staff is 67, 49 of whom work in the family mediation service. Of those 49, 23 are mediators and are located in the different offices around the country. Of the 67 staff, 42 work part-time so it is not the case that there are 67 full-time staff.
The full budget last year was €33.2 million. Of that, approximately 86% was spent on the counselling grant scheme and the family resource centre programme. The mediation service expenditure of €2.213 million was approximately 7% of the agency's total budget. A question was asked about administration costs. As our chairman mentioned, approximately 5.6% of our budget is spend on administration, and of that 2% to 3% relates to staff salaries.
Can the names, addresses and phone numbers of the centres be issued to each member of the committee?
To each Member of the Oireachtas.
Ms Polly Phillimore
Of course this can be done.
Mr. Michael O’Kennedy
Ní neart go cur le chéile. When we get together we can do the job. That is a very practical idea.
Regarding the locations of the family resource centres, the few I have visited in Dublin are very isolated. They are away from the community, often stuck in the middle of a complex of flats where local people are the ones drawn to go into them while those living on the outskirts do not feel they should have to travel so far. Location of the family resource centres is very important for everybody in the community. It is not always those who live in the complexes who have the problems. Those in surrounding areas have as many difficulties and feel isolated. Some can live quite a distance from the larger communities.
Mr. Pat Bennett
In many cases communities themselves identify the premises to be used. We have done a number of relocations and have funded and supported this so if the Deputy has particular centres in mind where there might be a potential to re-locate she is welcome to let us know about this and we will talk to the local family resource centre.
Mr. Michael O’Kennedy
I have something that may amuse and surprise the Chairman. As far as I know there is only one constituency in the country that does not have a family resource centre. It happens to be my own former constituency of Tipperary North. Whatever that says about me I do not know, though perhaps my colleagues do.
Ms Polly Phillimore
Senator McFadden asked about single fathers. Increasing number of the clients at the family resource centres are unmarried parents. The lack of guardianship awarded to unmarried fathers is a huge problem in mediation. It is often used by the other party as an argument.
In conclusion, I thank the Family Support Agency for coming before the committee today and giving such a comprehensive briefing. I thank each delegate individually and also thank the committee members for their time.
The joint committee adjourned at 3.50 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 28 May 2008.