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JOINT COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL AND FAMILY AFFAIRS debate -
Wednesday, 4 Feb 2009

Budget 2009: Discussion with CORI Justice.

I welcome Fr. Seán Healy and Sr. Bridget Reynolds, director of CORI Justice. I ask Fr. Healy to commence his presentation on the 2009 budget, current developments in the socio-economic situation and their implication for people affected by them and Government policy in the short to medium term as well as the possibility of making tax credits refundable.

I draw the witnesses' attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege, but this does not apply to witnesses who appear before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Fr. Healy is very welcome.

Fr. Seán Healy

I thank the Chairman. We are pleased to respond to the committee's invitation and as always we are very glad to share whatever insights we may have with it. We were asked to bring copies of the presentation because it is four pages long. However, there are two appendices and we have brought with us a total of 20 copies, which are available to the members. They are also available for members of the press who may want copies. We are not going to present the two appendices, but they may be of use to members of the committee. I shall talk about those in a moment.

We first want to draw attention to the fact that growing prosperity in Ireland over the past 15 years has not delivered infrastructure, services or well-being on the scale required. As Ireland reflects on the current economic situation and the difficulties in which we find ourselves, some of them self-inflicted, others part of the international context, we have to acknowledge that there are problems with the development model we have followed. I want to acknowledge, however, that some very good things have happened, particularly the decline in poverty. The percentages are down from over 19% to 15.8%. Despite the fact that the population was increasing over the three-year period the most recent statistics cover, the figures show a fall of 100,000 in the number of people at risk of poverty, and that is very welcome.

At the same time it must be acknowledged that the Celtic tiger failed to deliver infrastructure and well-being on the scale required, as I have said. I want to make the point again that there have been many good developments. The number of jobs doubled, for example, and yet we now find ourselves in the current crisis facing an enormous increase in the level of unemployment, and there is growing recognition that the number of jobs available in Ireland is not sufficient to honour people's right to work. Linked to this is the fact that we have other problems as well, which we may wish to discuss. For example, we only reward paid employment in Ireland and as a result there are all types very important initiatives such as work in the community, community development, work in the home, caring and so on that is not recognised, respected or valued sufficiently.

When one looks back over the 15 years one sees a development model that focused almost exclusively on the thesis that if we got the economy right, everything else would follow. It is somewhat akin to Bill Clinton's slogan in 1992, "It's the economy, stupid". The problem is that now, 15 years later, we recognise that while we did very well in the economy across a whole range of fronts, people are discovering an entire range of other problems, whether in services, education and health, social welfare or infrastructure, social housing, broadband and so on. These have not been delivered and as a result people realise that it is not just a matter of the economy and that we also need to get the social services right. Interestingly, in the Towards 2016 national agreement, there is a recognition of that fact. One of the agreement's opening points clearly states that economic development and social development are complementary. This is an issue we must have very clear cognisance of as we move forward, in what is a very difficult time.

The economy needs to do well if there are to be resources for the social services to be driven at the rate that we should like to see, with infrastructure being provided and so on. At the same time it is not just that. The services must also be doing well if the economy is to do well. For example, the education sector must be doing well if the economy is to do well. It is not just a matter of developing the economy, with everything else following. The services must also be put in place for the economy itself to run well. There is a complementarity here, both must be driven and economic and social development need to have equal priority in this context. That was not the case.

With regard to the future, the Government must ensure it maintains this complementarity and does not again wind up, when resources become available, with making the same mistakes that have been made in the last 15 years. We have listed for the committee, on page 3 of the presentation, ten key choices we believe the Government should make.

The Government should first recognise that progress means more than increasing GDP and take the required steps to adopt a broader measurement of progress, and in this process——

What script is Fr. Healy using?

Fr. Seán Healy

I am using the presentation to the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Social and Family Affairs.

It is this one but not the opening remarks.

Fr. Seán Healy

I am using this script and working through it. What I am indicating appears on page 3, point No. 2 of this document. There are ten points. Have members found the place?

Fr. Seán Healy

That is a mistake. We sent in the wrong document first and then we sent in a corrected version. It should be on page 3. There is a blank page 2. It is on page 4 of the actual presentation. I am sorry about that.

Fr. Healy is not including the opening remarks.

Fr. Seán Healy

I have just finished them. I shall come back to them. I am only summarising them. Otherwise, we should be here too long. I am only allowed ten minutes for this opening presentation.

Page 4 of the presentation cites the ten key choices the Government should make. It should first recognise that progress means more than increasing GDP, and take the required steps to adopt a broader measurement of progress, and in the process measure what matters. We are not saying growing GDP is not important. Of course it is, but it is important that we recognise that other issues are involved in making progress as well. The second issue is to integrate the income tax and social welfare systems because the current systems were designed for another age and are inappropriate in the present world.

A third choice we believe Government should make is to promote a life-cycle approach to social policy, as agreed in Towards 2016, and promoted in other publications as well. This involves providing programmes to ensure adequate income, appropriate services and activation for children, people of working age, older people and people with disability so that all can live life with dignity. This means ensuring that Ireland's total tax take is at the level required to achieve this.

The fourth point calls for the recognition of all work, not just paid employment. We are arguing here for much higher value to be placed on the work done in the community, in caring and across a variety of other areas. The fifth point calls for a strong focus to be placed on strengthening participation by all. The sixth puts sustainability at the core of all policy making — and that includes economic, environmental and, very importantly, social sustainability.

The seventh point makes refers to the need for us to reclaim our time. As a society and across the world problems arise from the fact that nobody has time for anything. We are running around on enormous commutes with little time, which gives rise to many other issues. We need to reorganise ourselves, so that we reclaim our time. We need to promote a whole of health approach and we can broaden that out if people are interested in discussing what it means. In practical terms, that means things like promoting primary health care centres as the cornerstone of a more inclusive health process. We must broaden the focus of education to ensure it produces fully rounded human beings, and strengthen social capital and civil society.

Values are at the core of decision making on public policy issues. The values that underpin public policy should be articulated and debated by all concerned with public policy, before decisions are made. This is especially crucial at this time, as Ireland decides what choices to make in a world that is in serious crisis.

What has been happening on poverty? There has been a fall from 19.4% to 15.8% over a three year period in the most recent study on poverty rates published by the Central Statistics Office. This reduction is due principally to the increases in social welfare, totalling €51 a week, that were contained in the three budgets of 2005-07. This has resulted in bringing the lowest social welfare rates to 30% of gross average industrial earnings for a single person. In spite of the growing population, the number of people at risk of poverty fell by 100,000 over the three year period. In welcoming the reduction in Ireland's poverty rate by almost one fifth over the three year period to 2007, the figures nonetheless highlight the Government's failure to maintain the anti-poverty momentum in the budgets for 2008 and 2009.

We would also like to point out that almost a third of all households in 2007 at risk of poverty were headed by a person with a job. These are the working poor. Initiatives are required to tackle this, and we will address that in the next section. More than half of all those at risk of poverty — 55.9% — live in households headed by a person who is outside the labour force, such as those who are older or who are ill, or who have a serious disability or are in caring roles. These people are completely dependent on welfare payments. They are not in the labour force and are not the people who are unemployed. It is important to point out that there has been major progress on benchmarking social welfare payments in recent years.

The Government has stated that it is committed to protecting the most vulnerable in these difficult economic times. If it is to do this credibly, then CORI urges the Government to continue benchmarking the lowest social welfare rates at 30% of gross average industrial earnings; make additional resources available to support households at risk of poverty by targeting further welfare increases at the second adult and the children in these households; and take initiatives to tackle the working poor issue, the rising level of unemployment and issues such as food poverty that were not addressed in the 2009 budget.

CORI recognises that poverty is about much more than income adequacy, although income is of critical importance. Consequently, it is important that the deficit in social services be addressed in the period ahead. These include services in the areas of education, health, child care, care of the elderly, housing, transport and training. Likewise, it is critically important that activation programmes for people who are unemployed or at risk of becoming unemployed be supported adequately. It is important to ensure that activation programmes for people with disabilities, for children and others should also be supported adequately.

Of particular importance in this economic crisis is the need to ensure that the brunt of the adjustments do not fall on those who are vulnerable. Consequently, services and activation measures should be adequately resourced to ensure that the system is poised to take full and early advantage of the economic upturn, and avoid a lag between economic recovery and social service provision.

Why and how should tax credits be made refundable? Tax credits were introduced in 2001 to replace personal and PAYE tax allowances, and this was a very progressive move by the Government of the time. This was a positive development. Currently, the values of the main tax credits are €1,830 for the personal tax credit and €1,830 for the PAYE tax credit, which totals €3,660, or €70.14 per week. They are available to all workers. As currently configured, the full value of the tax credit is not available to many people with low earnings. A person with low earnings, whose tax bill is not up to the level of the tax credit, will not get the full value of that credit. This is especially important for the working poor. Their incomes are at a level where many of them do not benefit from the full value of the tax credit.

We believe that the full value of the tax credit should be available to all workers. If a person's tax bill is €50 per week, and the tax credit is €70 per week, then that person should be given the €20 extra. The simplest way to do that is to get the Revenue Commissioners pay it as a refund at the end of the year, in the same way that they pay out on other refunds such as unclaimed health bills.

There has been a long-running argument on all this. The Government set up a working group on making tax credits refundable, and this group reported in 2002. It did not finalise its report because as a member of the group, I refused to sign the final report unless it included two points that I thought were crystal clear. The comments made on basic income were out of date, even when using the Government's own published work. I also argued that the costing for making tax credits refundable, which was very high and was produced by Revenue and the Department of Finance, was for a proposal that nobody was making. However, the proposal we made for a targeted refundable tax credit was never costed, but that fact was not acknowledged in the report. I emphasised that we needed at least a footnote to make the point that we had made a proposal that was never costed and that people who read the report could easily be under a misapprehension. This argument has run and run.

The most recent figures, according to parliamentary questions answered by the Minister for Finance, is that it would cost about €2.5 billion to make tax credits refundable. Our view is that this figure is not a credible estimate of the cost, even though it is coming from the Department of Finance. We are proposing a targeted application of tax credit refunds, making them available to people over 21 years of age, because we do not want people to be given incentives to leave school early. They would also be targeted only at people who had worked in the previous year, so that somebody would not work for one hour in one year, and then claim a refundable tax credit for the whole year. Therefore, our proposal is targeted at those who worked at least eight hours per week for the previous year.

The most recent figures given by the Revenue Commissioners show that 683,000 people paid no tax in the most recent year for which figures are available. If we take the bill of €2.5 billion and divided it by 683,000, we get €3,660. What does that mean? The Department of Finance is claiming that, on average, the 683,000 people who are not benefiting from a refundable tax credit are entitled to €3,660 each — that is the actual result of its calculation. However, this would mean in effect that they were not working at all because once they earned €1, they would be liable for tax, which would have to be deducted from the €3,660.

The way we have structured this, it is totally impossible for the targeted refundable tax credit that we have been proposing for ten years to cost the kind of money the Department of Finance claims it would cost. We are tired of trying to get this done independently through processes linked to the Department of Finance so we established our own working group——

On a point of order, are the Revenue Commissioners coming in to speak to us? If they are outside, they should really be listening to Fr. Healy.

Fr. Seán Healy

I agree. We have tried to put this across to them on many occasions.

If they are outside, I suggest they would be brought in to listen.

I am told they are watching on the television screen.

There is no volume on that screen.

They have access to internal television.

Are they availing of it?

We are told they are.

I suggest we invite them in. It is much better if they are in the room and can hear people in person.

I agree. There is a substantial difference of opinion and it is crucial that they——

I have no problem with that. We will bring them in.

Fr. Seán Healy

Will I repeat the introduction?

Fr. Healy might repeat the part about the costings.

Fr. Seán Healy

We were dealing with the issue of the cost of making tax credits refundable and I pointed to the numbers reported in the study carried out in 2001. We referred to the targeted proposal on tax credits we have been making, which is that it should only be available for people over 21 years of age who had a record of an average of eight hours work per week in the previous year. A targeted refundable tax credit would cost far less than the figure that is being provided on a regular basis. Our understanding is that the most recent figure provided as the cost of making this happen was €2.5 billion. I will explain why I do not think the most recent figures are credible.

Some 683,000 tax cases paid no tax according to the most recent figures we have to hand, which were supplied by the Revenue Commissioners. If one was to divide the €2.5 billion cost by the number of 683,000 tax cases, one would get €3,660 a year to which these people would be entitled because we are talking about making that €3,660 in tax credits refundable. The problem is that this is the full value of the tax credit and, consequently, if everybody in that category was to get €3,660, it would mean in effect that none of them was earning a penny, and certainly they were not earning €1, because once they earned €1, it would be deducted from their tax credit. However, this calculation shows no deduction whatsoever for all 683,000 tax cases.

Our view is that there is no credibility to the figures that have been supplied on a regular basis. CORI Justice has established a working group to examine the real cost of targeted refundable tax credits as proposed by us on many occasions over the past decade. We have commissioned independent research to establish the exact cost. We have seen the initial results but we expect to be in a position to publish the results of the research towards the middle of 2009 and we would be glad to supply the committee, the Department of Finance and the Revenue Commissioners with the results as soon as they have been finalised. Those results will outline in detail how the calculations were made.

I will not go through the two appendices but they contain a lot of detail about the actual reality of poverty. There is also a copy of the material I sent on to the committee some time ago identifying the faults, as I saw them, in the report that was available in 2001.

I welcome Fr. Healy and Sr. Reynolds. We talk about the working poor, who are a sizeable proportion of the poor when we consider the figures the witnesses have provided. To take one of the tables provided, the working poor issue has not decreased even though the overall poverty issue has decreased somewhat. I would be concerned, as I am sure CORI is concerned, that the current semi-positive figure will change.

Will Fr. Healy explain the average income variant between what he terms the working poor and, say, someone who is on jobseeker's allowance or a social welfare payment, so we have an idea of the actual financial difference we are talking about? My colleagues and I are concerned because people are telling us they do not know if they will stay working because they do not feel it is worth their while in many instances.

Will the Fr. Healy expand on what he said in regard to activation? While I very much support the concept of activation, in this climate we all need to re-examine what we mean by activation. Given the rising unemployment figures, it will now be far more difficult to activate people into employment than it may have been three or four years ago when, even at that stage, we did not have the right types of activation programmes to get people working.

There is a document with regard to one-parent families and activation which suggests there will be a lot more stick than carrot to make it worth people's while. We cannot have activation unless we first deal with child care and transportation issues, which is part of the difficulty.

In terms of family income supplement, Fr. Healy referred to the dramatically low take-up, although when I raise this with the Minister, I am told it is quite successful and has improved dramatically. There is still a difficulty in this regard. People are more aware that the supplement exists but it is difficult to persuade them to go through the application.

Linked with this is the question of the farm assist payment, although I am not sure if it is an issue that comes across CORI's desk as much as mine as it is probably more a rural than an urban issue. A figure I received recently is that there are approximately 3,000 farmers in Offaly whose incomes would be relatively low but only 67 farmers in the county are on farm assist, although it is meant to be the equivalent of family income supplement for the agricultural community. People who are very close to the poverty line become ineligible because of the way their income is assessed for the previous year and given the averaging of three years, which is an issue.

While the witnesses spoke about food poverty, in which I am interested, they also mentioned the issue of integration. With respect, CORI should seek a meeting in this type of format to which all Oireachtas Members are invited, as although the witnesses have raised issues pertaining to education and health, this joint committee's remit does not include such issues. Nevertheless, members to an extent work in isolation when considering such issues exclusively from the perspective of social welfare as one cannot so do. Consequently, such a meeting would be important.

Food poverty is linked to fuel poverty and many groups have suggested — I do not know whether CORI was among them — that last year, people were choosing between food and fuel. Does CORI have an opinion on the current ability of energy companies to seek an almost immediate increase based on rising oil costs? Although such costs have fallen dramatically, there is no mechanism to insist they decrease the charges to people. While this issue has been given much consideration from a business perspective, from the perspective of those families which pay such massive electricity and gas bills, there does not appear to be in place an adequate system to deal with it.

In respect of child poverty, while it might be too complex an issue for the purpose of today's meeting, I seek the witnesses' views on the idea of a second-tier payment, as views vary considerably in this regard. On the issue of refundable tax credits, had I known that CORI intended to produce research on the subject by the middle of 2009, members might have scheduled this meeting for that time. Members would like to have sight of that research when it becomes available, as it will inform them in their discussions with the Minister. I refer to the figures used by the Minister for Finance in this respect and CORI's claims that it would not cost €2.5 billion. The witnesses should indicate what they believe it would cost.

I welcome the witnesses and thank them for their presentation and their ongoing work in providing their research as a resource to members, because it is very useful. First, I wish to ask the witnesses a couple of questions in general terms about their own proposals, in which they outline what the Government's priorities now should be. CORI advocates making additional resources available to support households at risk of poverty by targeting further welfare increases at the second adult and children in such households. The witnesses should outline their views on targeting child poverty and what they consider to be the most effective way of so doing.

Second, they should expand a little on the proposal to target resources at the second adult. Members were discussing this issue before the witnesses joined the meeting and they intend to update earlier research that was carried out on the impact on different family types of the tax and social welfare system and the in-built disincentives for people to form two-parent families. Work on this subject had been conducted by Mr. Colm Rapple some time ago and the joint committee will have it updated shortly. However, CORI's proposal to deal with this issue by targeting the second adult interests me because I had not encountered it previously and I seek some more information in this regard. The witnesses also should provide some detail to members on CORI's costings regarding its targeted proposal on refundable tax credits. This is not such a radical idea because an element of refundable tax credits already exists within the system in respect of medical insurance and mortgage interest relief for certain categories. It might be helpful were the witnesses to provide information for members on this proposal.

I refer to another area about which I am concerned that relates to the working poor. One difficulty is that yesterday's announcement bypasses the tax system in that regard and proposes levies on many people who one would consider to be the working poor. Perhaps we should be considering refundable levies or refundable tax credits, but it is a matter of concern that the Government has taken an approach that bypasses the tax system altogether and I seek the witnesses' opinion in this regard. I noted some of CORI's comments to the media on yesterday's announcement and specifically welcome its views regarding the working poor and the impact the proposed levies will have on them.

I also welcome Fr. Healy and Sr. Reynolds and thank them for their ongoing work in this highly delicate area. My first point pertains to an issue raised by my colleague, Deputy Enright, namely, the issue of farmer poverty, which sometimes is not visible. I recently advised a young farmer, who had serious health problems, to apply for the farm assist scheme, to try to help him out. His social welfare officer challenged him as to who had advised him to apply and what was it all about. I had prepared the figures for this person and although he may have had a reasonably sized enterprise, he was in genuine poverty. We are heading towards a completely new situation, which must be dealt with sympathetically. The document supplied by the witnesses notes that at present, more than 30% of those at risk of poverty are working. This figure must be rising significantly, given that an additional 36,500 people were in receipt of social welfare in January and given the increased number of workers who either are in short-term work or are on minimum time. I visited a shop the other day in County Monaghan and told the assistant I would get back to him the following day. However, he replied that he would not be there as he only worked a two-day week. Many of those affected have taken out big mortgages and other commitments and now find themselves either working short-time or in receipt of social welfare. This is a major issue.

The witnesses' proposals in respect of tax credits are interesting because there is a major difference between their points and those of the Revenue Commissioners. Like Deputy Enright, I also would like to know what is CORI's estimate in this respect because it is important. I again thank both witnesses for CORI's excellent work and commitment to those who are much worse off. Yesterday's budget — there is no other word for it — will have a major effect on the low-paid within the Civil Service. Many such people have made commitments in the belief their situation was guaranteed. Although many people in other positions could not avail of loans or mortgages, these people were able to so do on the understanding their situation was guaranteed. While I understand this is not possible in the present difficult climate, one would have thought that at least the low-paid would have been safeguarded.

I apologise for being late, I was obliged to attend another meeting. The major issue I wish to raise, having read through the document provided by CORI, pertains to the newly unemployed, which is a new category of people. Someone visited my clinic last weekend who has worked all his life and has two properties but who that morning had been obliged to borrow €100 from his mother as he had no money. Such people are the new poor. He has tried to hand back one of the properties but the bank does not want it. He has no money. He was a block layer who used to employ brickies and pay their PRSI contributions, etc. He is owed a lot of money. He has nowhere to turn. He does not have the skills to cope with this either. He is completely and utterly at sea. My heart went out to him. As well as this, he must wait for social welfare to process his claim because he has assets. This is a new area which we need to target and look after.

I support CORI with regard to refundable tax credits. It is the only way to go in terms of the working poor. Will the witnesses comment on this new area with which I am faced? I do not know how to advise people. I do not know what to say to them. I commend CORI on its work and I will do anything I can to support it.

I wish to comment on No. 8 in CORI's list of ten key choices for Government, which is to promote a whole of health approach. What are CORI's views on day care centres? Does CORI include the concept of day care centres in this approach? I see the valuable work done in day care centres throughout the constituency of Clare which I represent. There is a need to fund them properly. If this service is provided to people from a poor background or who are elderly they can meet their own peers and access a substantial meal and various health care services within the centre.

Fr. Seán Healy

I will respond to some of the comments and Sr. Brigid will respond to others. We will try not to be too repetitive because some of the questions repeated the same points. In terms of the working poor and the welfare rates there is quite a difference between the two numbers. Table 3.1.1 on page 9 of the presentation document shows our recalculation of the poverty lines for 2009. The annual poverty line for a single adult is €11,965. It was €11,400 in 2008. The amount for two adults and two children was €26,400 in 2008 and is €27,759 in 2009.

One is always working a little behind the numbers on this because one is trying to work out where it will be at the end of 2009. The current year is always open to a certain amount of fluctuation but this is small and is nothing dramatic. The income from social welfare of somebody who becomes unemployed will be below the poverty line. A single person working at the minimum wage is way above this level so there is no danger. However, a couple with two children is in a different situation. A household on the minimum wage or on the minimum wage with a second income could still be among the working poor. This is the context in which refundable tax credits become an issue.

With regard to activation, we need to bear in mind two distinct categories and a third related issue which is job creation itself. Job creation should always be on the agenda but we are safe in stating that job creation will not be off anybody's agenda. The two groups are those to whom Senator McFadden referred, namely, those who have recently become unemployed, and those with whom the committee has dealt for a long time, namely, the long-term unemployed. These categories are very distinct. I am concerned that the latter category, those who have been there for a long time, will get lost in the middle of this and we will forget that we need to target work at them also.

We need activation programmes for those who are becoming unemployed, particularly those who have never been unemployed. They are completely lost. From a high level of income suddenly they are back to €204 per week, or whatever they are entitled to depending on whether they are single. They do not know their way around the system. There are additional issues of delays because the Department has not geared up sufficiently to process them quickly. At one level, one can state this happened very fast. On another level one can state that the people required to shorten the length of time for assessing people need to be reassigned. People are in an extremely difficult situation. This is one of the most traumatic situations in which people who have never been unemployed find themselves.

Deputy Enright raised the low take-up of FIS. The take-up of FIS has never gone much beyond 40% of those who are entitled to it. FIS has had a fundamental weakness for a long time. The Department has tried very hard through several Governments — I will be fair about this fact — and made huge efforts at trying to get people to take up their entitlement to the family income supplement. However, it has not been all that successful. We need to think more laterally about this.

With regard to farm assist, people need to realise they are entitled to it and it must be ensured that the take-up is supported. If people have entitlements they should have easy access to them. There should not be a series of hurdles developed, put in place or left there for years and forgotten about to make it very awkward for people to access them.

With regard to integration we would be very happy to take up Deputy Enright's suggestion of speaking to all Members of the Oireachtas on the integration issues involved in health, education and welfare and we can consider having an opportunity to do so. In late April every year, we produce our annual socio-economic review which is a very substantial analysis of more than 200 or 250 pages of the situation in Ireland. It seeks to integrate all of this material. It is made available to Deputies but perhaps we can arrange a briefing at that time.

With regard to fuel and food poverty and energy, the mechanism for reducing the price is not nearly as efficient as the mechanism for raising it. Very fundamental issues are raised here. This is not only about welfare and fuel poverty. This is about energy costs and competitiveness in the economy. Ireland has the second-highest energy costs and this is a major problem. The problems with competitiveness are not only about wages. Other issues are also raised and employers would accept this. We need a strong mechanism to do a couple of actions, particularly to make a real effort at reducing the cost of energy across the system. There should be no reason this should not be done.

On second-tier payment and child poverty, our view is that a second-tier payment is likely to create more traps at the end. The proposal for a second-tier payment is that it should be taxable and withdrawn sharply where a household income is in the region of €25,000. The problem with this is that it creates another trap. We have spent a decade and a half or perhaps two decades trying to get rid of all the unemployment and poverty traps between the welfare system and employment. We are trying to eliminate traps whereby people in employment would be better off on welfare.

Child poverty must be tackled but a second-tier payment would give rise to serious grief. Another problem is that it is not implementable at present. Until such time as the tax and welfare systems are integrated one cannot be sure that the Revenue Commissioners know who has children and what ages they are in order to establish entitlement.

How does Fr. Healy suggest this should be done?

Fr. Seán Healy

We are making the same point as Deputy Shortall with regard to the second adult.

No child in poverty is not from a household in poverty. This is how it works. We identify two big groups as being at risk of poverty. More than 55% of all households at risk of poverty are headed by a person completely dependent on welfare. The other group, which makes up more than 31% of all households at risk of poverty, are headed by a person with a job. We have different strategies for the two groups. The second group would benefit from refundable tax credits, an issue to which I will return. In regard to the first group of households, we suggest the best approach is to target the second adult payment. A social welfare payment is made to the first adult and a further two thirds is paid if there are two adults in the household. We have argued that the second adult's payment should be raised to the same level as the first's and this has been accepted in respect of some of the contributory old age pensions.

The payments would be individualised.

Fr. Seán Healy

Yes. This is simply a way of ensuring that no initiatives are taken which would incentivise family breakdown or disincentivise family formation. That is the principle we advocate. Individualised payments would mean there is nothing to be gained in splitting up or to be lost in coming together. The choices will not be dependent on money.

Issues arise where one person receives social welfare benefits while the other person works.

Fr. Seán Healy

That is correct. The Deputy's comment brings us to the area of refundable tax credit. For the working poor, the fastest way to provide support is to make tax credits refundable. All the other ways of supporting these households have been attempted and this is the only option left to target payments.

In terms of children, we should continue to pursue the policy of making payments for all children through child benefit or the dependent child payments. However, until such time as we integrate the tax and welfare systems we will not be able to know where children stand in terms of tax and other areas. The argument for integrating the tax and welfare systems is incontestable. I do not accept that, in 2009, it cannot be done. It should be given priority.

Deputy Shortall is correct in regard to refundable tax credits. Given that health insurance and mortgage interest payments already benefit from refundable tax credits, the principle is in place. We are making it simple so that there will be no problems with administration. A person could only claim a credit after the end of the year in the same way that he or she would claim other refunds from the Revenue Commissioners. That would eliminate all the problems that might arise in terms of paying people on a weekly basis. It would in effect be paid in the following January. While it is not a huge amount, January is not a bad time for a household at risk of poverty to receive additional money.

The working poor issue is difficult to address because we were not given a breakdown of where the amounts would apply but intuitively I believe there will be an impact. Some way must be found to ensure we do not further increase the number of working poor. The situation is very difficult at present because people who may have earned relatively large incomes previously are now falling into unemployment and suddenly finding themselves on social welfare. Their assets may no longer be realisable or their mortgages may be greater than the value of their houses. These people are adding to the numbers at risk of poverty.

Sr. Brigid Reynolds

In regard to people who are losing their jobs and the concerns that have been expressed for farmers, Teagasc and FÁS need to be more active in opening new areas of opportunity. Anything members of this committee can do to address that need would be welcome because neither agency appears to have realised that the Celtic tiger has gone or that new realities and areas of need have arisen. The problem is that big bodies move slowly.

We have long advocated the development of primary care teams, so it is tragic that they are finally being established just as resources are diminishing. They have been proposed for various areas throughout the country and I hope all interested parties will push for their development. We will not come to terms with the difficulties in health care and acute hospitals until we develop a decent primary care system. Day care centres have to be properly resourced but they are often the facilities which are cut first. Cuts were being imposed on home care packages and other services even before yesterday. We have to be vigilant in ensuring that the most vulnerable are not forgotten. We will do what we can in that regard.

Fr. Seán Healy

Several members asked our estimate of the cost of refundable tax credits. We are not in a position to provide a final number in that regard. We have commissioned independent researchers to estimate the cost and they are conducting stress tests on their numbers. If personal and PAYE tax credits were made refundable for people over 21 who in the previous year worked an average of at least eight hours per week, the cost would possibly be less than 10% of the amount estimated previously. I do not want to be held to that estimate at present but we will make our research available as soon as it has been completed. We will make clear how we arrived at our costings and what databases we used so that our estimates can be confirmed by other academics and the Department of Finance. We will be happy to make all our information available and if flaws are discovered we will adjust our estimates. We are trying to be careful because we were surprised to find that the cost is so low.

I wish to clarify the figures on minimum weekly disposable income required to avoid poverty. CORI claims that two adults and one child would require an income of €23,800 to avoid poverty. As a result of yesterday's announcement, people earning less than that figure will be levied €750 per year. That is outrageous. The people already in the category of the working poor will be penalised further. One cannot get blood out of a stone and that was an important point made by a contributor to "Today with Pat Kenny" this morning. She was a public servant and lone parent who is being put to the pin of her collar to survive. She is working with the Money Advice and Budgeting Service to keep her head above water and she is expected to pay an extra €750 per year that is not there. The impact will be enormous on the working poor.

The follow-on from that is she is paying into something on which she will not get a return. As a result of the level of her salary, she will still only get the contributory old-age pension. Nothing extra will be received.

Fr. Seán Healy

We stated that we have not yet got access to the detailed numbers. Figures were read out by the Taoiseach in the Dáil in answer to questions subsequently but we have not been able to run them yet. As soon as we get them we will run them. Intuitively, we reckon there was a problem and I stated as much in the media last night when I outlined three issues of concern; increasing numbers of working poor was one which jumped out. We must deal with the matter because we certainly do not need an increase in the working poor.

We are also very strongly of the view that very substantial adjustments are required both this year and over the five years. Taking the adjustments required as stated by the Department of Finance, our view is that the adjustments could have been found in other ways to protect against these consequences. During the negotiations we would have supplied the Department and others with a variety of options. We were looking at how to get the adjustments without in any way damaging the vulnerable, of which the working poor is part, the services or social infrastructure.

We came up with proposals both in one-year and five-year timeframes to meet the targets which the Department sought — €2 billion in 2009 and €16.5 billion over five years up to the end of 2013. They showed how this could be done without damaging the vulnerable, the services provided or the social infrastructure. We will be running those numbers in the next day or two and we will see what the story is.

The proposal does not take any account of ability to pay and there is no appreciation of the fact that people are put to the pin of their collars as it is. The Government is looking to squeeze more from those people.

I have a final question on the tax credit issue. It will be thrown up as a negative. If somebody is working and could avail of this, is there a risk of a disincentive within the system in the taking up of more hours? If a person could get the refundable tax credit, why would that person work the extra bit that would bring their wage up to the figure that would disallow the refund?

Fr. Seán Healy

The number is very small. Currently it is worth only €70.14 a week. Maybe a person would already be using €50. They would only be entitled to another €20.

Fr. Seán Healy

Three hours at the minimum wage would give more than that.

That is fair enough.

Sr. Brigid Reynolds

We would not want the argument used that it would not be very big and it is not worth doing. If somebody only gets €10 per week back, that would be €520 at the end of a year. Most of us know people at that level would be very happy to have that at the end of the year.

Fr. Seán Healy

It would make a big difference.

I have listened with great interest and I apologise for having to leave the room for a while. I am slightly concerned about the lump sum at the end of the year and I wonder if it would be a recipe for money lenders or credit card debt. People may collect money during the year on the basis that they would have this coming in January. Would that be a negative aspect of the proposal?

Fr. Seán Healy

There might be some cases but any danger would relate to a very small proportion. The amount of money is relatively small. Some people here have a strong track record tackling the problems people get into when they borrow beyond their means and we are supportive of that effort to get rid of the money-lending problem at that end of the scale. In this context it would not be that big a problem; it would not be a problem at all in any serious way. We are talking about people who have jobs, albeit on low pay. They may be part-time or full-time workers but they have large families. We are hopeful it would not be a serious disincentive and there should not be a serious problem.

I thank CORI Justice for coming here today and engaging in such a worthwhile discussion. We will shortly hear from officials on the possibility of refunding tax credits and the points made on this issue should assist us in our discussion with them.

Fr. Seán Healy

I sincerely thank the committee for having us before it. We will make the research available as soon as possible. We are always available to the committee on any issue it wants to consult us on.

I thank the delegation.

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