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JOINT COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL AND FAMILY AFFAIRS debate -
Wednesday, 1 Apr 2009

Poverty Risks in Economic Downturn: Discussion with Combat Poverty Agency.

I apologise for the absence of the Chairman, Deputy Healy-Rae.

I welcome the delegates from the Combat Poverty Agency: Mr. Brian Duncan, chairman; Mr. Jim Walsh, team leader; and Dr. Kasey Treadwell, head of research. I draw delegates' attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Mr. Duncan to deliver his presentation on poverty risks in the economic downturn, after which there will be a question and answer session.

Mr. Brian Duncan

We welcome the opportunity to make a presentation to the joint committee. The Combat Poverty Agency has a long history of engagement with the committee on issues relevant to our remit. We have tended to focus on two areas in particular, namely, the risks of poverty and the changing nature of economic poverty. These priorities are reflected in the submission we have made on the forthcoming budget.

We very much appreciate the support we received from the committee on the last occasion on which we appeared before it in terms of the future role and independence of the Combat Poverty Agency. The Government subsequently made a decision to integrate the agency, together with the Office for Social Inclusion, in a new division within the Department of Social and Family Affairs. This was a democratic decision, which we respect, and we have been working with the Office for Social Inclusion and the Department to implement the change which the Minister has indicated is likely to take effect from 1 July. Our view is that, once this decision was made, the challenge was to achieve implementation and integration in a way that would maximise the value, culture and ethos of the Combat Poverty Agency and to ensure the new division, notwithstanding the inevitable loss of independence, would be able to take a leadership role in developing policies and practice relating to poverty and social inclusion. I will be more than happy to answer any queries members may have. As I said, we greatly appreciate the support of the committee. The staff were particularly grateful for that support.

Our objective today is twofold. First, we propose to highlight the emerging poverty risks arising from the economic downturn. Second, we will share with the committee the advice we have given to the Government in regard to the forthcoming supplementary budget. My colleague, Mr. Walsh, will deliver this part of the presentation.

Mr. Jim Walsh

We are preparing a paper on emerging poverty risks and challenges in the current economic downturn. Much of the focus recently has been on the financial and banking aspects of the downturn, but there are also the social effects to consider. The purpose of our paper is to focus on these issues. The downturn radically changes the policy context for tackling poverty, reduces resources to address ongoing poverty challenges and creates more poverty risks. Ireland faces particular challenges owing to a confluence of factors, including the severity of the economic downturn, the existing scale of poverty and the high expenditure on social welfare.

Our paper deals extensively with employment and unemployment issues. Everybody is aware of the rapid increase in unemployment, with recent figures suggesting 10% of the labour force, or considerably more than 200,000 people, are out of work. There are indications that the live register will point to a total number of unemployed of some 400,000. Moreover, there are suggestions the rate could increase to 14% by the end of the year. From a poverty point of view, the risks arising from an increasing unemployment rate are clear. Unemployed persons are between six and 13 times more likely to be in poverty than those at work. This points to an undeniable correlation between unemployment and a hugely increased poverty risk. Few of the current trends in unemployment are new, with many also evident in earlier recessions. Of concern, however, is the rapid rise in youth unemployment, signalling the persistence of educational disadvantage. Also of concern are the rise in non-Irish national unemployment, gender differentiated trends and the rise in unemployment of the self-employed who face a combination of structural barriers and high levels of personal debt combined with business debt.

Another cause for concern is the administrative burden of dealing with rising unemployment, which is most evident in the delayed payment of benefits. Moreover, we are concerned that recent reforms in the payment of unemployment benefit may create poverty risks and traps. We have included suggestions in our paper for addressing these issues by providing supports to facilitate the unemployed in returning to work. We must also take action to address the haemorrhage of jobs, especially in vulnerable sectors. We will include suggestions as to how this may be done.

Another theme in our paper on emerging poverty risks is the issue of the consumption of goods and services by those on low incomes. Low-income households face several barriers in consuming goods and services, including structural and market problems, low bargaining power, a tendency to operate on a pay-as-you-go system, affordability issues, and a lack of access to facilities, transport and so on. At the same time, there is increasing Government reliance on market and private sector-led models for service provision which often do not have a strong social component. An example of market-led service provision is waste collection charges. There is often no social dimension to such arrangements such as the provision of a waiver. A recent review by the Office of the Ombudsman concluded that the administration of waste management services did not make adequate provision to mitigate the cost burden on low-income households. More generally, the report notes that the current model for privatisation of public services, of which we are likely to see more in the future, can act as a barrier to public authorities in exercising their social policy obligations. This goes back to the point that in the current situation new poverty risks are emerging all the time.

We also refer to the issue of over-indebtedness. This refers to a persistent inability to repay instalments associated with credit agreements and household bills. Over-indebtedness is associated with people in poverty, those on lower than average incomes and those who have experienced a major income drop for reasons of ill-health or unemployment. We have a separate paper coming out on the issue of over-indebtedness and what needs to be addressed in this regard.

Surveys in recent years have estimated that, on average, between 7% and 10% of households experience problems with arrears and/or have to borrow for essential expenses. Therefore there is a great deal of evidence which suggests that over-indebtedness is on the increase. The main policy response to this in recent times has concerned mortgage debt and a moratorium on repossession proceedings. However, this does not go far enough because there are many other types of over-indebtedness that need to be addressed. In our new paper on this topic, which we will launch on 21 April, we will set out a range of preventative, ameliorative and rehabilitative measures to address the issue of over-indebtedness.

I also wish to highlight the issue of child poverty. The current economic downturn poses a number of poverty risks for children. Children and child poverty will be affected by a rise in workless and working-poor households, changes in household consumption, and associated social, cultural and psychological effects. Youth unemployment and educational disadvantage are especially of concern. We cannot be complacent on the issue of child poverty. In one sense we have got away with the issue because people leaving school with low educational attainments have been mopped up when there was a huge demand for labour. That is no longer the case, however. The effects of child poverty and educational disadvantage will be magnified in the current economic downturn, so we need to intensify measures to address them. Otherwise we will be left with an economic millstone in future years which will cost us far more to remedy.

I will now turn to our approach, and our submission, on the supplementary budget for 2009, which has been announced for next week. It will be an unusual budget in the sense that it will not be about spending more money, but primarily about extracting resources from the economy and from households to reduce the Government's borrowing requirement.

We feel the budget should not diminish the Government's focus on reducing poverty, especially given the increased poverty risks I have already highlighted. We acknowledge that the Government has to reduce public expenditure and raise tax revenues to control the budget deficit. This goal should not conflict with protecting those in poverty or improving the effectiveness of welfare provision to address the new poverty challenges.

There is a key point here. While fiscal policy initiatives are clearly required, no matter how progressive, they will be unsustainable and ineffective if not accompanied by measures to address the social effects of the economic downturn, in particular the growth in unemployment. Social policy cannot stand still in the current environment, but must be re-focused to generate better outcomes in terms of access to employment, educational opportunity and basic living standards. It is not enough to say that we need to protect the vulnerable, we must go beyond that. We have to find new measures to support and address ongoing poverty issues, so that people will be in a better position to improve their living standards and then avail of what opportunities might come from an economic improvement.

The Combat Poverty Agency advocates the following six-point comprehensive policy approach to the supplementary budget: prioritise income tax increases over cuts in welfare expenditure; maintain welfare rates and child income support; seek better value for money for welfare expenditure; support employment and enable the unemployed to return to work; ensure user charges are in compliance with social policy; and address problems of over-indebtedness.

I would like to summarise the first three points, which are particularly relevant to the joint committee's remit. In terms of prioritising tax increases over cuts in welfare expenditure, our approach is evidence based. We have examined how the Government has spent resources over the past ten years and the additional tax welfare measures involved. We need to claw back some of those resources to fill the current deficit in the public finances. The evidence suggests that of the €10 billion that was provided in additional tax welfare improvements over that ten-year period, 65% was channelled through tax reductions, welfare payments got 19% and child benefit got 16%. Overwhelmingly, therefore, the resources went into tax reductions. As a result the distribution of these resources massively favoured higher income groups. For example, one third of that resource package, around €3 billion, went to the richest 20% of households. By contrast, lower-income groups received a far smaller share. The poorest decile got 4% and the poorest quintile got 10%. There is no question that if we need to find more tax resources the evidence is there that we must claim back some of the money we gave in the past, which overwhelmingly went to tax cuts. This is not an ideological question, it is one of clawing back from where we spent the money because we need it now. Let us get that money back from the groups that got it.

I will now address the issue of maintaining welfare rates and child income support. A key policy objective of the budget should be to protect the living standards of those at risk of poverty. This requires ensuring that welfare rates, and in particular the minimum rates, are not reduced. We are outlining four reasons they should not be reduced. Welfare rates are the main determinant of poverty levels in Ireland. Cuts in welfare rates are likely to increase poverty and will further differentiate Ireland from European best practice. Welfare rates are currently not adequate to meet minimum essential budgets in many cases. Research by the Vincentian partnership for social justice shows that only 15 out of a sample of 27 low-income household types are able to afford minimum essential budgets. Therefore, half of them do not currently have the required resources.

The argument has been advanced that in a situation where the annual consumer price index is in decline — and recent figures suggest a decline of around 2% in the CPI — this does not support a view that basic living costs are falling. The main driver for the reduction in the consumer price index is lower mortgage rates, which are down by 26% on the year. That is unlikely to benefit welfare recipients. Excluding mortgage interest rates, the consumer price index in fact rose by 0.5% in the last year. Annual food costs, which account for up to a third of income in the poorest households, increased by almost 1%. Also, the cost of utilities and local charges is up by 11%, which will have a bigger impact on low-income households.

A final argument for not cutting welfare payments is that maintaining them boosts economic demand and directly supports agricultural production and employment in the retail and other sectors of the economy. Therefore there is an economic reason as well as a social one.

What should the policy approach be in regard to child income support? It can be argued that child benefit should be reviewed on the basis that it is a universal payment, but we suggest caution in this regard. Child benefit is now the predominant form of child income support and any reduction will adversely affect poor, middle income and better off families. Combat Poverty's preferred approach, if restricting the payment, is not to cut it or means test it, but to tax it. That would take some time to work out, however, and the matter is being examined by the commission on taxation. The Government should await the outcome of its deliberations.

As regards seeking better value for money in welfare expenditure, we are suggesting that there are some ways in which current resources would be better spent. I will cite three examples. One concerns targeting cash resources towards greatest needs. For example, the early child care supplement could be better targeted to directly fund access to pre-school provision for children aged three and four from low income families. This would be in line with the original proposal from the commission on the family. This could be done by providing an enhanced voucher payment of around €3,000 per child per annum to purchase pre-school education from a provider of their choice. That would be a better use of their resources than spreading it across the board as is currently the case.

A second suggestion is the linking of income support with supporting cash measures. The welfare system provides cash subsidies towards items such as private rented accommodation, home heating and fuel. Frequently, these do not represent good value for money because of deficiencies in the quality of housing. Linking income subsidies with measures to improve housing conditions could improve outcomes. For example, recipients of the fuel allowance should be prioritised for home improvements under the warmer homes scheme. Another option might be to replace the smokeless coal allowance with a capital grant for switching to energy efficient heating systems. Similar value for money reforms could be made in the rent and mortgage supplement and by improving the range and quality of housing available.

Tackling poverty is not an option. Poverty is on the increase and we must maintain the existing provision and if possible get better value for money for the resources being provided as well as adopting a more proactive approach, particularly to unemployment. There are economic benefits for the wider economy in supporting welfare payments and keeping their value up. We need smarter policies, as well. In particular, we need to invest in the future and we must, especially, address the issue of child poverty. If we do not do this now, we shall pay the cost for that in the coming years. Intervention now, particularly as regards pre-school access, is critical and should not be seen as something that can be deferred until we have more resources.

I thank Mr. Walsh. I shall be happy to take Deputy Shortall first, as she has to leave.

I apologise. I have to attend another meeting, shortly. I thank the Combat Poverty Agency representatives for the presentation and advice on the options open to the Government and politicians, generally, in the current difficult circumstances. Perhaps they might expand, somewhat, on their proposals on the budget options, where they talk about curtailing tax expenditure on pensions, medical costs, health insurance, mortgage interest and various investment reliefs. Have they specific proposals in those areas?

Perhaps Mr. Walsh can take that, as I just want to facilitate the Deputy, at this stage.

Mr. Jim Walsh

We have made several suggestions. There is clear inequality in the area of pensions, for example, where some people can get pension relief at the higher rate and others at the lower rate. As a result, 75% of the cost of pensions' tax relief goes to the richest 20% of the population. There are ways to achieve a fairer playing field, by adopting, perhaps, a tax credit approach which would ensure equal value being given to people, regardless of their tax liability or the rates at which they pay tax. If such an approach were to be adopted with, say, mortgage interest relief, capped at a standard amount across all contributors, that would be one clear option. One could query the tax relief mechanism as regards health insurance, too, and whether that is the best use of resources. We have highlighted before the fact that people who are in poverty do not have a medical card. Are we better off spending resources in supporting people to have private health insurance, or could those resources be better used in terms of access to medical cards for people who clearly cannot afford the basic health services? We are attempting to provide an agenda of options for Government to pick out which proposals it believes might be feasible in terms of the budget.

I wondered whether Mr. Walsh made specific proposals in that area and if costings were available in terms of the potential for Exchequer savings. However, perhaps they are not available at this stage.

I also wanted to ask about the potential for savings in welfare expenditure. The three areas referred to are interesting. I was concerned about the cost of providing rent under the rent supplement scheme, and the RAS scheme as well. Given the reduction in rents in recent times is there potential for significant savings to be made? I know the delegates suggest rent should be linked to the standard and quality of accommodation, but surely there must be potential for savings, given what has happened to rents, generally.

Mr. Jim Walsh

Yes, that is correct. Part of the problem, however, is that one is dealing with a segment of the market which does not have much buying power. People on lower incomes who are trying to negotiate with landlords often find they will not be taken on board or the quality of the accommodation is limited. Middle income groups tend to be in a better position to negotiate rent reductions. People on lower incomes find it harder to get such reductions, even when they are justified. That is simply because they do not possess much bargaining power. Perhaps there is a role here for the State and I suppose that is the benefit of the local authority RAS scheme. Effectively, the State is negotiating the rent with the landlords. It has much more buying power and therefore can better dictate a rent which reflects market conditions. For individuals, especially the vulnerable, to try to negotiate is much harder. The State should be in a better position to negotiate those rent reductions, which are completely justified at the moment. Lone individuals will find it very difficult.

That is what I have in mind; that the State should deal with things so that it is not down to individuals. There is no doubt that there is potential for savings. It also confirms the argument previously made at this committee that the manner in which the RAS scheme operates is far more satisfactory than rent supplement. We should move more towards acceptance that such contracts should be between the State and the landlord.

The other area referred to was the whole question of growing personal indebtedness. That has been identified by this committee as a priority area for us to deal with. We will undertake a body of work on it in the coming months and I should very much welcome a Combat Poverty Agency input into that. I note what the agency has said about producing a report on it and I hope it can let us have that soon so that it may feed into our work.

I thank Deputy Shortall and call Deputy Enright.

I welcome the delegates and will make a few points on the presentation. Youth employment was raised and dealt with as a symptom of educational disadvantage. I am not sure of the figures but the last time I looked it was around 27% in my area and perhaps it is similar around the country. Has the agency any more to add other than saying the cause is educational disadvantage? Figures on the proportion of those not completing the leaving certificate are considerably less than the numbers of unemployed at the moment. Are there any solutions for dealing with that and trying to ensure that people can get into employment?

The other issue mentioned, which we have not dealt with as much, is that of the self-employed or the self-unemployed as they are now. I am finding that this has become a much bigger problem. The very fact a person must provide last year's accounts for most social welfare payments is problematic. Many of those people with no income now were working last year, and on relatively good incomes. Some owe their accountants, I am finding, considerable amounts of money and are unable to provide accounts for the Department — because they have nobody to do the accounts for them. It is possible to discuss such matters with individuals in the Department, but that is not an adequate way to deal with the problem. I just wonder if this is something the agency comes up against frequently.

One thing that has not been dealt with and which I should like to see more work on is the whole area of poverty traps. The agency quotes an unemployment figure of 10% and it is unfortunate that the Taoiseach has said today it is up to 10.9%. Even if the work is there, how can people be facilitated and made to want to go back to work? Deputy Shortall mentioned rent supplement. That is automatically a barrier to people trying to go back to work. It is almost black and white. One can do a certain amount but it is very limited. However, if one is on RAS, one's options are so much better. I know one pays a little bit more, because it is a differential scheme, but people's options are much better. What are the blocks in RAS from the recipient's perspective as distinct from the landlord's perspective?

I do not agree there is no room for movement in rent supplement. I agree it is difficult for the tenant to be the negotiator but there are almost 30,000 empty properties in the country and there is room for prices to come down. We cannot just ignore that fact. Almost half the supplementary welfare allowance budget, €478 million, is spent on rent supplement. It is a massive amount of money to spend on something which was supposed to be a short-term scheme. What are the blocks to moving people on to RAS? It started out very successfully but it seems to be stymied.

I was interested in what the agency said about child poverty. We will all have to wait for the report from the taxation commission. The agency's comments on the early child care supplement were somewhat interesting and it said it should be targeted. I agree to a certain extent in terms of pre-school and so on but the early child care supplement was partly introduced to help people who were working with the massive cost of child care. Despite costs going down elsewhere, the cost of child care is still extremely high. Even if people only work three days per week, many must pay their crèches for five days. That is terribly unfair but it is happening.

The early child care supplement was supposed to be targeted but it never was. If one does a FÁS course, one's child care is paid and one will still get one's early child care supplement. One must question whether that is fair. What the agency said was perhaps a little bit simplistic in that one must examine it for people who are working, particularly those on low wages for whom that supplement is very important. I accept it needs to be reviewed but it will require a little more detail.

I refer to over-indebtedness which we are debating, to some degree, in Private Members' business in the Dáil this week. There is a need for urgent changes to our legislation to deal with the issue of debt. We cannot go on in this way and we need an alternative system of dispute resolution.

The way the agency examined the issue of social welfare recipients was as if none of them had mortgages. Some 11,000 people are now in receipt of mortgage interest supplement. They are all social welfare recipients. The dynamic in terms of people who are finding themselves unemployed is changing very quickly. Perhaps the document was prepared some time ago but we need to be cognisant of that. I would be interested to hear the agency's comments on that issue.

I propose to bank some contributions and then ask Mr. Walsh to deal with them.

I welcome the Combat Poverty Agency. The three recommendations it made are very interesting and have been mentioned by others, in particular the bargaining power of welfare beneficiaries. As has been mentioned, that could be further improved through major reform of the rent allowance scheme. There is no question about that. While it would not directly benefit the welfare beneficiaries, it would certainly have a huge impact on the Government.

I question much of what the agency said. One of the points it made was that an argument for maintaining the level of welfare, or even increasing it, was that it generates economic activity. If that is the way we are thinking about welfare, namely, that it is a generator of economic activity, then it is a major misunderstanding of what it is. It might do that but that is certainly not what it was designed for or what I want welfare to be.

The agency is critical of tax reductions over the period 1998-2007 and said that welfare received 19% of additional resources through the budget gain. That ignores the fact we had a massive welfare state even before unemployment began to rise. What the agency seemed to be looking for in the 1998-2007 period, when we had record levels of employment, was a massive increase in the welfare state. Taxes were reduced. Even according to the terms of its own graph, the first to the seventh deciles gained more than their income distribution and the top people gained less than their income distribution. The agency might argue that they should have gained even less than they did. Even according to its own graph, those who were the lowest gained more than their income distribution.

The agency did not mention taxation. As a result of budget measures up to the last budget, 38% of people paid no tax whatsoever. When one counts child benefit, a huge percentage of people have a net transfer from the State, even though they are working. That has not been alluded to in the discussion.

The agency referred to tax expenditure but reductions in income tax cannot be classed as expenditure. It reckons some of them are regressive, and perhaps they are, but the overall tax system in this country is highly progressive.

I like the agency's three recommendations under the better value for money heading. While undoubtedly its research is correct, I would not concur with some of the assumptions or views underlining it.

I welcome the Combat Poverty Agency. I refer to the second recommendation under its better value for money heading relating to heating and fuel. The agency spoke about the warmer homes scheme and trying to get better value for money for people in heating their homes. That system does not really work very well and few people benefit from the warmer homes scheme. The situation down the country is completely different from that in Dublin. It is a good aspiration but I am sorry to say it does not work on the ground.

I refer to over-indebtedness and look forward to the agency's research. It is a pity we do not have it now. The biggest problem we face is the new poor, the recently unemployed and the people who do not know how to manage because they have never been unemployed or on welfare. They have credit card bills, car loans, perhaps two mortgages, children at college and teenagers.

I know of a painter who worked all his life since the 1980s and who employed three or four people but had to let them all go. He had a second property but handed the keys into the bank because he could not pay that mortgage. Last week he had to borrow €100 from his mother-in-law because he was waiting for his accounts and owed money to his accountant. He is in a desperate state. Thankfully, his social welfare will come through. I applaud the people working the social welfare exchanges who are working way beyond the call of duty. It might be part of the agency's remit to highlight to the Minister the fact they are under such pressure. The people in the social welfare exchange have looked after this gentleman and he will get his back money, etc., and perhaps it will give him a chance to get started again.

The last paragraph of the presentation states the Combat Poverty Agency welcomes the moratorium on repossessions but believes it does not go far enough, with which I fully agree. Has the agency influenced the Minister to that end? After all, the Government has the power to instruct the banks not to repossess people's houses because we have bailed them out. There is also the issue of credit unions getting court orders against people who may owe €400 or €600, which must stop. People should not be brought to court or imprisoned for failing to repay such minuscule loans. Arrangements need to be agreed to allow them pay a small amount every week.

I welcome the delegation. ASH and the Irish Cancer Society have proposed that €2 be added to the price of a packet of cigarettes, which would generate approximately €420 million. Does the Combat Poverty Agency have a view on whether such measures unfairly target poorer sections of society? Does it believe such measures could be ameliorated in other ways by targeting poorer sections of society to assist them in giving up cigarettes? The Government has made the argument that one of the risks of such a measure would be an increase in the level of smuggling, a matter addressed in a "Prime Time" documentary in recent days. Another concern I have heard expressed is that such measures can affect poorer sections of the community, in particular. Does the agency have a view on this?

There are some interesting questions and views for Mr. Walsh to grapple with.

Mr. Jim Walsh

I will ask Dr. Treadwell to speak first about the unemployment issues and poverty.

Dr. Kasey Treadwell

On youth employment and educational disadvantage, one of the recommendations we make which goes back to the idea of investing for the future is that there be investment in early child care and childhood education. That is one of the key leverages in addressing educational disadvantage before it becomes embedded and part of a systemic problem. One of our arguments is that we should look strongly at pre-school age groups and educational supports, even before they enter the formal education system. We have considerable evidence to suggest educational disadvantage starts at a very young age. That is one area in which we could address many issues.

There are a number of issues to do with self-employment, particularly indebtedness. Uniquely, those in self-employment have a combination of personal and business debts. Much of the time personal and business debts become conflated and it is very difficult to disentangle and address them. Current systems such as MABS, for example, do not have the resources or capacity to deal with the matter because it has not been an issue heretofore. Obviously, there is a need to support MABS, in particular, as a first line of defence and perhaps try to facilitate some reforms around it. There is scope in that regard.

Self-employment is a key pillar towards the idea of retaining employment. In many cases self-employers are those who might employ a small number of people but obviously they offer great benefits in retaining employment. They offer particular benefits in terms of the social capital and the economic benefits etc. that emanate from this. As mentioned, there are major social and psychological effects of losing employment, particularly for those who are self-employed. There are measures that need to be addressed. MABS is a service in which supports could be put in place.

Obviously, poverty traps present a major issue. We have supported work on barriers to employment. In particular, it is critical to recognise that provisions such as activation measures will not necessarily be as successful in the current economic climate because there are no labour market opportunities. A key issue is not only looking at poverty traps and barriers to employment but also identifying the stepping stones and progression routes necessary to ensure people are supported into quality and sustainable employment. Again, there are many possibilities in looking at the interface between employment and social welfare systems and trying to look at creative ways of meshing the two in order that vulnerable groups, for example, lone parents, can avail of the supports and services they require to access sustainable and high quality employment.

There are a number of issues on the blocks in the rental accommodation scheme, RAS. It is a relatively new scheme and being introduced on a fast-track basis. Many of the difficulties are really teething problems in moving people from the rent supplement scheme to the rental accommodation scheme. There is an issue with the supply of units. There is also an issue with the administrative processes in setting up leases and landlords being interested in offering their properties under the RAS. There is an issue with the State taking a proactive role in looking at units and the affordability issue. The quality and appropriateness of the units coming on stream are important considerations. Not all of them may be appropriate to the family types looking for RAS units. They may not be located in high demand areas. It is a question of ensuring the supply matches the demand and requirements of the population.

Does Mr. Walsh wish to deal with the early child care supplement?

Mr. Jim Walsh

The proposal to increase the price of cigarettes by €2 highlights two factors. First, excise duties and indirect taxes are regressive for those on low incomes in the sense that they take proportionally more from lower than higher income groups. We have a research report which I would be happy to supply to the committee. There is a broader problem. It is not just a question of €2 being another excise duty, another indirect tax, there is the cumulative effect. One is using a measure that is inherently regressive. We have said we should not rely on such measures to raise revenue. It can still be said one is taxing something that is bad. It is like a carbon tax. This has some merit but it is still within a regressive system.

The second point is that it highlights the issue of health inequalities and the fact that people on lower incomes have a poorer quality of health and living standards. Clearly, smoking is a component of this, but there is a much wider set. Again, we have done a study of the social determinants of health which show that those on lower incomes will have much worse health. Zoning in on cigarettes without looking at the other social determinants of health and what needs to be done to address them in a comprehensive way is purely one dimensional, without seeing the wider issue. The Combat Poverty Agency has done considerable work to try to address health inequalities using a community development approach. We have had the programme, Building Healthy Communities. In one sense, if, having increased the tax, the money was put into prevention schemes and programmes such as Building Healthy Communities, I would agree to think about it. However, as a stand-alone measure, it fails on two counts.

The study of responses to indebtedness will be available on 21 April, with the Minister carrying out the launch. If that is not early enough to meet the concerns of the committee, we could come to present some of our findings. They will be available in three weeks' time and I hope will be of assistance.

Until last year, the warmer homes scheme was only available effectively in half the country. Approximately 8,000 households benefited under the scheme. We have not invested enough money in it but expenditure is being doubled with the new allocation of €100 million in funding announced earlier this year. SEI is suggesting it will be able to double the number of households which it will be able to cover and that it will also be able to offer the scheme on a nationwide basis, although, until now, it has only been available in half the country. The scheme is very cost effective. There is an argument for enhancing it and a higher level intervention is to be tried out. The scheme is about the softer elements of infrastructure such as insulation, lagging jackets and so on. While it does not address the question of heating systems, the enhanced scheme will do so. It is a good model, although we have not put enough resources into it. On the question of making it more widely available, we have said we need joined-up government in this regard. We are spending €300 million on fuel allowances. Surely every one of the households involved gains a benefit from the scheme. If one is targeting them, one needs to give them resources. In the long term one might argue that we might perhaps rein in some of the expenditure if we wanted to give people a better outcome. We need joined-up government to try to link the two parts.

The concept of tax expenditure is that it costs the Government money to allow tax reliefs. It is a cost to the Exchequer — just as we spend money on education, we spend money on tax reliefs. The most recent figures from the tax strategy group in the Department of Finance indicate that tax expenditures cost the State €8 billion per annum. While this includes some business expenditures, if we consider only those relating to individual income taxpayers, the cost to the State is probably in the region of €4 billion. It helps to make it transparent to actually call it an expenditure.

Reference was made to the way resources should be shared. We are simply trying to present the facts on how money was spent and I hope we can then have a more informed debate. It is argued that if we want to generate more money, we need to claim it back. We are suggesting the way it was spent should inform the way it should be claimed back now. It is a political question and we are trying to give the committee some evidence as to——

There was not just increased but greatly increased welfare expenditure in the period 1998 to 2007. It now accounts for 38% of the national budget. It was not too far below this figure during the boom years and was always a significant part of the budget during those years. Does Mr. Walsh believe it should have been a much greater part?

Mr. Jim Walsh

Let me put the matter in context. Our concern and that of the Government is to reduce poverty. The Government has made a commitment to reduce consistent poverty to between 2% and 4% and eliminate it by a certain date. At a European level, it is committed to making a decisive impact on poverty and income poverty. Where do we fit? We have a very high level of poverty by European standards. The Combat Poverty Agency has done research to find out why that is the case. The main reason we are not performing well is that our welfare system is not adequately resourced in terms of people's living standards. For example, the welfare system in the best performing countries in Europe reduces poverty by over 70%. If there was no welfare system, there would be much greater poverty. In Ireland, the welfare system has been reducing poverty by approximately 50%. It is now in the high 50s in percentage terms because we have put more money into it. This is the justification for improving the welfare system, namely, that we will reduce poverty, which is the lesson to be learned from the rest of Europe. If one wants to be among the best performing countries, one has to provide resources for income support, particularly child income support.

The Deputy asked about child benefit which is made available to all households. Again, the evidence at European level is that if one wants to reduce child poverty, one needs to have a comprehensive and robust system of child income support.

On the Deputy's last point on viewing welfare as an economic activity — perhaps "activity" is not the right word — it is the case that welfare stimulates demand in the economy. There are economic arguments being made that, for example, if one extracts resources from the economy, it will deflate it and make matters worse. We must be conscious of this. We are asking what the effect will be if the Government takes money from the better-off. Perhaps they will save more, which is what many are doing — they are cutting back on consumption and saving. However, low income households are not saving and are not spending on holidays. They are putting the money directly back into the economy. If one considers the work being done by President Obama in America in his economic stimulus package which is trying to boost the economy, he is putting resources into lower income households because it is known they will spend the money immediately and boost economic activity. Perhaps "economic demand" is a better term than——

To be fair, "economic demand" was the term used in the Combat Poverty Agency paper and it was I who used the word "activity". In the case of President Obama, the tax credits given are, in some cases, a direct payment but that is not all of the package, some of which is directed at the banks and some at the motor industry. There are other aspects also. One of the arguments for maintaining welfare is economic. It is obviously true that if we were to reduce welfare, which we do not want to do, it would reduce economic demand. However, if that is what is focusing thinking, we are focusing on the wrong issue. Welfare is absolutely necessary and important but most are benefiting from a main welfare payment. As I receive child benefit, I am a welfare recipient, although whether I should receive it is another question. Welfare should be payable, as Mr. Walsh rightly says, to reduce poverty, not as an economic stimulus or for economic purposes, which is to put it the wrong way round. However, I fully acknowledge that if we were to reduce welfare, it would have an economic impact.

Mr. Brian Duncan

In a sense, we do not disagree. However, one has to accept that in the current climate there are commentators, for want of a better word, who argue that one of the measures that has to be considered in addressing the economic problem is a reduction in welfare rates. We are making two points essentially, first, that welfare is right in its own right and, second, we are saying to those who want to make an economic argument that there are also economic advantages. We do not have any disagreement with what the Deputy said but suggest there is a second leg to the argument which we want to make to those commentators who may be threatening the social welfare payment. That is where we are coming from.

To return to the issue of poverty traps, does every single aspect of the social welfare budget need to be examined? I understand we are in a different climate because work is obviously much harder to find but, even when there was work available, some still found it more beneficial not to take it up because of the automatic losses. A tapered system needs to be introduced. I would like to see the Combat Poverty Agency do something in this regard because it will probably be one of the biggest issues with which we will grapple.

To add to that, it is almost a mentality in that there are generations who have never worked because they do not know any better. It is not even about incentivising them to work. There are people who, through no fault of their own, are not aware of the benefits of socialising at work or returning home tired after a hard day's work. Has the agency considered the benefits rather than the financial aspects of working?

I apologise for my late arrival; I was defending my party leader on a local radio programme. These matters must be addressed.

I hope the Deputy did a good job.

I did and I had no problem doing so.

Members may have seen last night's "Prime Time" programme on unemployment. A young man from my constituency, an architect with five children who, like many others in that field, is now unemployed, took part in it. The issues highlighted by him included that he had to wait two years before obtaining a place on a back-to-work scheme and that as a social welfare recipient, one had no chance of obtaining a loan to start a business. We should be seeking to remove many of the negatives in this regard. The best way of addressing the problems in respect of social welfare is to create employment. Watching that young man and hearing him speak about the obstacles he had come up against was something to behold. All of us, regardless of which side we represent, be it Government or Opposition, must work to remove people from this trap. In a time of crisis people try to justify all sorts.

The number unemployed has increased dramatically, resulting in an increase in the overall social welfare bill. We must find new ways and means of addressing our problems. Many unemployed persons are bright and enthusiastic. As stated, we do not want to create a situation where the people concerned remain unemployed in the long term and, perhaps, become hopeless cases. I appreciate the work being done by the Combat Poverty Agency.

Perhaps Mr. Duncan will respond to the points made.

Mr. Brian Duncan

We agree with the points made, the specifics of which Mr. Walsh will deal with. On working, an area in which I have had an interest through my involvement with the Dublin Schools Business Partnership which sought to provide employment for people in the inner city, a task that was easy during the period of the Celtic tiger, I accept there is a social and developmental aspect over and above economic issues. Many who got jobs during the good times were the first members of their families in generations to do so. An unfortunate change in employment policy resulted in many of the people concerned who were employed on short-term or casual contracts being let go. Having had aspirations to and hopes of permanent employment, they are suddenly unemployed again. There needs to be a specific focus on this group.

My son, who works in a large State organisation, told me last week that ten casual workers, all of whom had just completed third level education, had been let go over a two week period. Many employers created this type of employment to provide them with flexibility in the event of a downturn. However, it also has a negative social effect which requires more thought.

My colleague, Mr. Walsh, may wish to respond on the issues raised by Deputy Crawford.

Mr. Jim Walsh

On the young man referred to by Deputy Crawford, it is in such circumstances that child benefit comes into its own. The lifestyle enjoyed by the man concerned is gone and child benefit may be the main income source of the household. As a universal payment, child benefit overrides poverty traps. People across society have lost their jobs. What is helping them, in terms of State support, is child benefit which is coming into its own as a form of income support in these tough times.

The cost of unemployment to the State is approximately €20,000 per person in welfare payments and a loss of revenue in PRSI and tax. Financially, that is a big hit for the State. We need to get to grips with the issue of jobs and how we address the problem.

On access to credit, we have highlighted the issue of financial exclusion and the need to provide people with access to credit. As regards over-indebtedness, as referred to, an idea we have brought forward is that of force majeure, to effectively give people a second chance. We must put in place a mechanism to allow debt to be cleared and people to start afresh. Without this, they will be unable to once again become involved in economic activity. This will become an important issue.

On the early child care supplement, we make our proposal in the context of the three cuts made in the past year. We are asking if, rather than continually cutting the supplement, the resources could be refocused to obtain a better return from a social point of view. There must be fresh thinking. We make our proposal on the basis that the idea is on the backfoot. We do not want it to be lost. I appreciate that the issue of child care costs remains to be addressed. However, access to preschool for younger children to provide them with a good start is important. It is an example of what one might call smart policy in giving a policy response.

I thank the Combat Poverty Agency for attending. It has been a good meeting. It is important that we have shared our views on what is clearly a critical issue in the current economic climate. The delegation will have noted that we are all in agreement on the issue, which is fair enough in a democracy. As a committee — I am glad Kevin O'Kelly is present to hear me say this — we have always appreciated the work of the agency.

Mr. Brian Duncan

The challenge for us is to ensure we maintain our expertise and input, despite our new found independence. A key factor in delivering this will be our continuing involvement with the committee which will become even more important in the future.

I thank members for attending.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.20 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Wednesday, 22 April 2009.
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