JOINT COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL AND FAMILY AFFAIRS debate -
Wednesday, 8 Jul 2009

Social Inclusion Division: Discussion with Department of Social and Family Affairs.

Vice Chairman (Deputy Charlie O’Connor)

We are dealing with a briefing on progress made in establishing the new social inclusion division and its proposed work schedule for 2009-10. I welcome the officials from the Department of Social and Family Affairs. I shall chair today's meeting instead of the Chairman, Deputy Jackie Healy-Rae, and I apologise for his absence due to other business. I welcome Mr. Gerry Mangan, director, Ms Catherine Hazlett, principal officer, and Mr. Jim Walsh, assistant principal officer, from the new social inclusion division in the Department. I now ask Mr. Mangan to commence his briefing and detail progress made in establishing the new division and its proposed work schedule.

I draw attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but this privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the House, or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. If Mr. Mangan can live with all of that then he can commence.

Mr. Gerry Mangan

I welcome the opportunity to make a presentation to the committee on the establishment of the new division in my Department that involves the integration of the Combat Poverty Agency and the office for social inclusion. The Chairman has already mentioned my colleagues. Ms Catherine Hazlett is from the former office for social inclusion and Mr. Jim Walsh is from the former Combat Poverty Agency. This is the fourth occasion in the past six months that the committee has dealt with this issue. At one of those meetings the office for social inclusion was here and myself and Ms Catherine Hazlett attended. On two other occasions it was the Combat Poverty Agency which attended. This is an historic moment for us because it is the first time we are attending this meeting as a new division.

I am pleased to report that the arrangements for integration, in line with the Government's decision in budget 2009 last October, are in place. The necessary legislative provision was made in Part V of the Social Welfare (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2008. The commencement order for Part V has been made and took effect from 1 July.

In line with the committee's request, I shall deal with two issues. First, the proposed work schedule for the new division for 2009-10 and, second, the mainly logistical arrangements for the integration of the two bodies up to this stage. I shall try to skip some of the detail in my presentation to ensure that I keep within my time limit.

Vice Chairman

In order for Mr. Mangan not to eat up his ten minutes he will probably need to do that.

Mr. Gerry Mangan

I wish to talk about the proposed work schedule for the new division. First, I shall discuss the name of the new division. The board and the office for social inclusion had discussions about an appropriate name. We then recommended one or two options to the Minister and we expect that a new name will be decided upon shortly. We will also formally launch the strategic plan in September and the new division's name will reflect its functions.

I shall set out the framework for our work schedule. For a number of months we have drawn up a joint business plan. It reflects the ongoing commitments of both the Combat Poverty Agency and the office for social inclusion for 2009 as well as the tasks to be undertaken by the new division.

The second part of the framework is the new strategic plan that covers the two-year period from mid-2009 to mid-2011. It has been finalised and is being submitted for consideration by the Minister. Consultations on the plan have been undertaken with the staff and board of the CPA, the staff of OSI, senior management in the Department of Social and Family Affairs, and the senior officials group that comprises representatives of relevant Departments. A final draft of the plan was signed off by the board of the agency on 28 May, subject to a number of proposed changes which will be incorporated in the final version.

The third part of the framework is the national programme for the European year for combatting poverty and social exclusion that will take place in 2010. The new division is the national implementing body for the year. It submitted its national programme in May to the European Commission that has now given approval. The details of the programme will be finalised by November.

We have also framed the work schedule. Over the period 2009-11, the main priority for the work schedule will be to exercise the functions identified in the strategic plan. The work programme will have regard to some ongoing commitments. For example, research and evaluation projects that are consistent with the functions of the division and will provide opportunities for advancing and developing its agenda. This also applies to the national programme for the EU year.

One key element of the plan will be the provision of policy advice. The division will advise and make recommendations on an ongoing basis, where appropriate, on the implementation of the measures and targets in governmental strategies for social inclusion. The main policy advice during the coming year is likely to emerge from the projects being organised for the EU year. A key overall focus will be on the priorities, over the coming years, in the current severe economic situation and on how best all relevant stakeholders, both governmental and non-governmental, can work together towards maximising existing potential to make real progress. The main projects will encompass the following cross-cutting themes and are also in our programme sent to the EU: child poverty; access to quality work and learning opportunities; and access to services with the main focus on services for older people and people with disabilities. Specific themes will include urban disadvantage, rural disadvantage, migration and ethnic minorities, Travellers and homelessness.

The new division is co-ordinating the establishment of the project teams that will be comprised of representatives of key stakeholders and led by a representative of the main relevant Department or agency. For the cross-cutting themes the project teams will be required to organise programmes for their themes including seminars in five regional locations. I mentioned six locations in my presentation but I meant Dublin and the five regional locations of Waterford, Cork, Tullamore, Sligo and Dundalk. One of the national conferences will be held in each of these locations. One national conference or event, as appropriate, will also be organised for each of the specific themes.

A central ongoing task of the division is to monitor programmes of work within Government and, in consultation with stakeholders, monitor progress in implementing and adapting the strategies, having regard to the changing economic environment. These functions will be carried out especially in preparing the division's social inclusion progress reports on national strategies and the corresponding report for the European Union.

Another key function is the evaluation of outcomes. The evaluation is essential to determine the quality and effectiveness of services provided at national and local levels to those who are vulnerable to poverty and social exclusion. It is also needed to achieve the best return for taxpayers for the considerable resources invested. This is even more compelling during the current economic downturn.

Poverty impact assessment is one of the key tools to be applied and further developed based on the life cycle approach. Over the period of the plan a project will be undertaken for each of the main social inclusion policy areas and relevant local authority services.

Indicators are another important evaluation tool. They facilitate the clear determining of the outcomes to be achieved by policies and programmes and measuring of progress in achieving these outcomes. The division is undertaking the mandate given to the office for social inclusion in Towards 2016 — Review and Transitional Agreement 2008-2009. The mandate is as follows "[T]o develop proposals by July 2009, in conjunction with relevant Departments and Social Partners, for performance indicators in relation to the long term goals in Towards 2016 for each stage of the Lifecycle". The project is due to commence in September.

Other functions include: promoting a more integrated approach to policy and its implementation at both and national levels, involving Government and non-governmental sectors; and promoting better quality policy and implementation through facilitating the exchange of good practice at national level and from other countries through the British-Irish institutions, the EU open method of co-ordination, and through other international organisations.

Another key function is the research and policy analysis that will support the above processes from which issues requiring specific research are likely to be identified. The division will arrange for this research to be undertaken, as resources permit, in collaboration with relevant stakeholders. Current research projects will be completed and the research function will have a key supporting role in the programme's various projects for the EU year.

The development of consultative and participative functions, building on the structures already in place, is a major priority over the period of the plan. The essential aim is to ensure that structures are put in place and capacities developed to ensure that there is effective and meaningful engagement between non-governmental stakeholders, especially people experiencing poverty, and Government policy makers and administrators at national and local level. These exchanges will focus on the outcomes being achieved from social inclusion policies and their implementation and on emerging trends and challenges. The arrangements being put in place for the EU year are being specially designed with a view to the process and structures, modified as necessary in light of that experience, continuing to operate in the future.

Another key factor is communication with stakeholders. Effective communication is essential to promoting a greater understanding of the nature, causes and incidence of poverty among vulnerable groups and areas of disadvantage. It is also essential to communicate the measures being taken to meet the needs of people experiencing poverty and social exclusion by both the Governmental and non-governmental sectors including the progress made, the shortcomings and on what the priorities should be for future action.

Instruments for communication will include the reports on progress of various strategies, the division website, the library, periodicals such as Poverty Today, booklets and leaflets on particular subjects and education and awareness programmes. The development of constructive relations with the media at national and local level is also a key priority.

I will now give some conclusions about the strategic plan. The main objective in developing the strategic plan is to enable the new division to make a significant contribution to meeting the strategic goals for reducing poverty and social exclusion. In doing so the division will rely on the considerable experience and expertise that its staff will bring from the two bodies it has replaced. It will also take full advantage of the EU year in developing exchanges among stakeholders on the major challenges to be faced on poverty and social exclusion, on the structures for effective engagement between all stakeholders and on communications.

I will now give a brief overview of our logistical arrangements. Under the legislation, staff were entitled to transfer to the Department as civil servants which would enable them retain their existing terms and conditions of employment. This process is now completed. A change management programme was put in place to assist the staff of both bodies in adapting to work in the new division and, in the case of Combat Poverty staff, to working in a Civil Service environment. The process was supported and facilitated very effectively by the Department's staff development unit. We have also established from an early stage a joint management team composed of five members of the former Combat Poverty Agency and four members of the office for social inclusion. The national implementing body for the EU year has been established on a similar basis.

With regard to accommodation, the objective was to provide accommodation where all the staff of the new division could be in one location that is accessible to the public, especially a proper location for the agency's library. Gandon House, Amiens Street, was chosen and the staff of the office for social inclusion had moved there just over a year previously. It was identified as the preferred location. The relocation arrangements are being finalised and it is envisaged that all staff of the new division will be located together from 1 October. In the meantime the Combat Poverty staff will remain in their current location in Bridgewater Centre and will be joined, alternately, by the division's director and principal officer.

As regards financial arrangements, procedures have been agreed, involving the Department's professional accountant and officials from the CPA and OSI, to finalise all financial arrangements to wind up the agency and to prepare final accounts. It is expected that elements of this work will continue until September when the final accounts will be signed off and submitted to the Comptroller and Auditor General for audit prior to being laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas.

In conclusion, I am pleased to report that the integration has gone well and the process so far augurs well for the future of the new division. Much credit goes to the staff of both bodies who have worked hard to make the integration a success and are clearly committed to the its future success. Great credit must also be given to the board of the Combat Poverty Agency, particularly in the priority given to the welfare of the staff under the new arrangements and in ensuring that the agency's legacy is preserved, especially in the strategic plan. Finally, great support was given to the process by the Department from the Minister and Secretary General down. It was done with a view to ensuring that the integration is a success and that a strengthened division will build on the work of the two bodies in supporting the overall goals of Government in these difficult times to reduce poverty and social exclusion.

Vice Chairman

I propose to take questions from colleagues who wish to contribute. Perhaps Mr. Mangan will bank the questions and he and his colleagues will then be invited to deal with them.

Deputy Olwyn Enright

I welcome the delegation. We have already been warned by the Vice Chairman that we are at this meeting to discuss the future and not the past. Therefore, I shall stick to that agenda today.

Vice Chairman

I just read the script provided to me.

Deputy Olwyn Enright

The Vice Chairman still read it. I shall begin by wishing the delegation well in their new role and I genuinely hope that the unit works as well as the Combat Poverty Agency did. I know part of the unit's invitation to come here was to discuss the progress made regarding its establishment. I would have liked more information in the presentation on the unit plans. The other part of the invitation requested a brief on its work schedule but we were given a technical version. I would like more exact information, particularly on the issues that the unit intends to tackle this year and in the coming years. I appreciate that 2010 is an exceptional target that the new unit is working towards. I am less concerned with how it operates than what it will do and the outcome.

I appreciate that a strategic plan was forwarded to the Minister and limits the delegation's comments. If we had known that information we might have timed our meeting better. Can Mr. Mangan tell us the strategic plan or must we wait until the Minister approves it? That leads me to question the unit's independence but I know that it comes under the auspices of the Department.

Today I hope to find out where the unit is going. Let us look at the type of work carried out by Combat Poverty. It made submissions to the HSE, Departments and some to the Department of Social and Family Affairs. There were also submissions on the local government Green Paper. Will the new office for social inclusion make submissions to other Departments or will it just advise the Department of Social and Family Affairs? My biggest criticism of the Department is its lack of interaction. It performs a particular role and writes the cheque but it does not look at the bigger picture in terms of a breakdown in communication with the HSE or local authorities. I hope that matter will be addressed by the new division. Somebody must address it. Perhaps the new unit is best placed to do that. I shall be interested to see if it intends to do that.

With regard to the division's provision of policy advice, earlier Mr. Mangan stated, "The division will advise and make recommendations on an ongoing basis, where appropriate, on the implementation of the measures and targets in governmental strategies for social inclusion". I wonder to whom the division will make those recommendations. Will it be solely to the Minister for Social and Family Affairs? Can the division make recommendations to this committee? Will it make recommendations to the public? Will they be published? If something is published will the division only advise the current Minister? In that case nobody would be any the wiser and we would only find out the division's views when the Minister made a decision or we made an application under the Freedom of Information Act. Will the recommendations be published and made available to the public? If they were made public, the Opposition, and more importantly the public, would know what was going on. We would also have an opportunity to avail of expert advice.

Earlier Mr. Mangan said that the division will be "developing exchanges among stakeholders on the major challenges". Will the unit provide responses to those challenges? The engaging of stakeholders is important but it is the outcome that is more important for the people we are trying to help. Will it be part of the division's remit to have a plan to meet those challenges?

I have no doubt that this group will be willing to meet the committee but it is important that there is a formal structure or reporting process so that we, as committee members, feel that we have an input and access to the information. I propose that a formal structure is set in place whereby the office for social inclusion, or whatever its name will be in the future, must meet and report to this committee on its activities.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

I welcome the delegation. I want to pick up on the points made by Deputy Enright on the relationship between the new division and this committee. I want us to be clear on it. Perhaps the Minister can come back to us with clarification on that. All of us, as members of the committee, particularly spokespersons, relied heavily on the research work carried out by Combat Poverty. As we have said before, it was a huge help to us in our ongoing work in the area of social and family affairs. It is very important that we would have access to the division's research.

One of the key things about Combat Poverty was its freshness and dynamic that came from being an independent organisation. That must be borne in mind in terms of how that dynamism can be maintained in a new division and a whole new set up within the Civil Service. By its nature the Civil Service takes a different approach and is not necessarily seen to be dynamic. The challenge for everybody involved in the division will be to keep it separate from the Department and to retain its energy.

I would like the Minister to give a clear commitment to the committee that we could request research and be able to access it. Can the division ensure that any research commissioned will be independent? Is it committed to publishing all of its research?

I want to also ask a few questions on the strategic plan. Perhaps this meeting has taken place too soon because we wanted to see the division's strategic plan but it has not been provided to us today. We would like an opportunity to discuss it. I am a little concerned that the division's stated priorities, while very worthwhile, are somewhat dated. They were set out in a NAPS plan that was drawn up during a boom time.

As this committee is very aware, several issues have emerged as a result of the dramatic decline in our economy, particularly the huge increase in unemployment. Some of these emerging issues are indebtedness, access to training during what is likely to be a fairly long period of unemployment for many people, and the integration of tax and social welfare. Does the plan make provision for such issues? I do not get any sense that the division has updated its plan and priorities since 2007. It does not have its finger on the pulse in terms of the big issues that are emerging in the welfare area.

I am also concerned about staffing in the division. How many staff were in each of the two sections before the merger and how many are there now? Obviously the Combat Poverty staff were specialists as opposed to the predominantly general staff in the Department. Has any provision been made to retain such specialist advice within the division? How will vacancies be filled? Will the division bring in people with specialist social policy expertise? Will vacancies be filled by existing staff or general Civil Service recruitment?

I am interested in the division's promotional arrangements. Obviously Mr. Mangan is the director and Ms Catherine Hazlett is principal officer and they come from the Department. Is there another principal officer post within the division? Were Combat Poverty staff promoted? Are there job profiles for everyone working in the new division? Again, it is critically important that Combat Poverty's specialist expertise be maintained. How does the new division propose to do that?

Vice Chairman

I propose we have a brief private session at the end of this meeting to discuss the proposal to contact the Minister and I would be happy to support it.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

Deputy Enright's proposal is reasonable but I do not fully agree with it. I understand that the Opposition spokespersons may need these briefings but they would be far better making their own arrangements. The Minister should approve an arrangement whereby spokespersons could access the division's information.

It is slightly unfair of the committee to detain seven civil servants from the Department of Social and Family Affairs, on a regular basis, at a time when the Department is under-staffed. We should bear that in mind when inviting people to attend a meeting. However, we are grateful for the presence of the officials and I wish the office well in its work. The key job at the moment for the Department, and we are being constantly reminded about it, is to deal with the unemployed. They are looking for their benefits and have found that the Department is taking a long time to deal with them.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Does the Deputy think the division should be abandoned?

Deputy Thomas Byrne

Absolutely not.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

That is what we are talking about today. It is not processing staff.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

I have made my point, Chairman.

Vice Chairman

Has the Deputy concluded his contribution?

Deputy Thomas Byrne

Yes.

Vice Chairman

I thank the Deputy.

Senator Nicky McFadden

I welcome the officials. Earlier Mr. Mangan spoke about the evaluation of outcomes and I want to know what the benchmarks are. Yesterday evening Mr. Hugh Frazer and Dr. Maureen Gaffney spoke at a gathering on Combat Poverty and I was struck by how badly we are performing on child poverty and poverty in general. The bottom line is that we are so far behind the best performing EU country.

I have been against the subsuming of Combat Poverty into the office for social inclusion from the very beginning. I question the division's role. It has lost its independence.

I wish to follow Deputy Shortall's questioning from a different angle. My question relates to the posts of principal officer, the assistant principal officer and the director. How much was saved, or how much value for money, did taxpayers receive when the CPA was subsumed into the OSI? If I analysed it in depth I would say it has cost the taxpayer money.

My frustration is reserved for Towards 2016. As others have said, it needs to be thrown out because our circumstances have changed so dramatically in the past couple of months. Our tax receipts are so low that I wonder if there will be enough money to pay social welfare next year. We need to sit around a table and start afresh. I do not know how we can stop people going hungry and keep people warm next winter. We are sitting around a table here in comfort speaking about indicators and I am frustrated about it all.

Vice Chairman

There is a vote in the Dáil and I apologise for having to suspend the meeting.

Sitting suspended at 11.55 a.m. and resumed at 12.20 p.m.

Vice Chairman

I apologise to our guests for the workings of democracy. The next speaker is Deputy Seymour Crawford.

Deputy Seymour Crawford

I welcome the guests and their colleagues. This is an interesting exercise. We do not have much meat, as it were, to work with. I appreciate that the representatives do not have their work scheduled with the Minister, as yet. We are possibly having this meeting too early in that sense.

In his presentation Mr. Mangan referred to the main projects the new division will deal with. While I agree with those listed, in light of the current situation there are also some other serious issues. On 13 May in this room, the Minister, Deputy Hanafin, assured me that a different attitude was being taken towards the self-employed who had lost their jobs and that in the calculation of the benefits due to them the income they earned in the current year as opposed to the income they earned in previous years would be taken into account. She used a different wording, but that is the gist of what she said. However, I received a letter from a deciding officer in the Department only yesterday indicating that they had reconsidered a case. They had insisted on not only the production of the 2007 figures in this case but also on the production of the 2008 figures. The man concerned had to pay €1,400, which he did not have, to have the 2008 figures presented. He does not have any work and he still does not have any social welfare income. Issues such as that must be highlighted by a division such as this which is supposed to operate independent of the Department.

Rural disadvantage was mentioned. We are heading in the direction of people in rural areas being even more disadvantaged than they were previously with the withdrawal of bus services and so on. I have highlighted here on umpteen occasions the position of a couple in receipt of the old age pension living in a rural area where one spouse dies or goes into a nursing home for long-term care and the other spouse lives alone in the house but still has to maintain a car and meet other expenses. The only living alone allowance such a person receives is €7 per week, which is pathetic in this day and age. Something needs to be done about that.

The Minister, backed by her senior officials, said one thing here, but we have found the opposite to be the case in the delivery of services on the ground. These are the sorts of issues that a division such as this one needs to examine and address.

The idea that the staff of the division are close to run of the mill civil servants dealing with the day to day issues is a cause of concern. Deputy Byrne said it was a waste of their time being in here when many other jobs had to be dealt with in social welfare. When the Combat Poverty Agency was being axed we understood that the work of this division would be equivalent to the work of that agency in terms of empathising with what needed to be done and providing us with the relevant facts and figures. I support Deputy Enright and others who make the point that the representatives of this division should come before this committee on a regular basis and not only, as was suggested, to meet the spokespersons in private. This is public business and we are public representatives. We are entitled to the information that division has obtained because its members are paid by the taxpayer on our behalf to ascertain the relevant information and so on.

I wish the new division well. I was not being negative towards the new division in what I said. I hope its members will do a good job. In the current difficult circumstances, we must have some indication of the savings derived from amalgamating this division and the Combat Poverty Agency. Fine Gael highlighted that change was required in terms of the number of agencies in place, for which it received considerable abuse from the Government. Certainly, the Combat Poverty Agency was not one of the top on our list. If savings cannot be shown from amalgamating that agency and this division, then the exercise was pointless. It is important that the committee is advised of the savings and benefits derived from this exercise and how this division can act independently in future and we can be assured that it will not be hijacked or stopped from doing its work by its close association with the Department.

Deputy Catherine Byrne

I welcome the representatives. It is important that the staff who were in Combat Poverty are relocated within this new division because continuity is important. The common touch was an important characteristic of the approach of the Combat Poverty Agency. It was important for people in the community to know the staff in that agency, especially people involved in organisations who worked closely with under-privileged people in Fatima Mansions, Dolphin House and other such places.

What is the division's budget for the coming year? How will it be determined? In terms of the grants issued by the Combat Poverty Agency targeted at building and supporting healthy communities, primary care services and other services, will such grants still be available to local communities? Such grants are important, particularly to people living in Fatima Mansions. I am a member of the regeneration board and I know the impact health and well-being committees have had on the community there. I know the way it has turned around many people's lives in terms of identifying the health issues within the Fatima Mansions community and working with them. The Combat Poverty Agency assisted in that respect. Will the new division have the same common touch with communities that characterised the approach of the Combat Poverty Agency in terms of dealing with queries concerning the back to school allowance for books, the fuel allowance and other benefits? Will this unit have the impact the Combat Poverty Agency had in terms of encouraging the Minister to target money at the provision of such services, which are very important?

I appreciate that the representatives may not be able to answer this question, but having regard to the last report from the Combat Poverty Agency, I wish to ask about the money that was allocated to CAN by the Combat Poverty Agency. Will this new division make such an allocation? Is it possible to explore the work of CAN in communities. CAN had to be closed in my community for many reasons. When money is allocated to an organisation it is important that the person who receives it is made accountable for it. Will the new division have an input in that respect? In the case of money allocated to a community, will a member of the community be required to submit a report to the division?

Now that the Combat Poverty Agency is no longer in place, it is important that this new division should have the common touch with people in communities working on the ground, that characterised the approach of the Combat Poverty Agengy. That is what work of Combat Poverty Agency entailed and it was a household name. I support what Deputy Shortall said about staffing. What number of staff will be in the new division and where will they be located? Will the number of staff be increased or will such a requirement be met by people in the Department being moved to this unit?

Deputy Joe Carey

I welcome the representatives and thank Mr. Mangan for his presentation. I wish the staff in the new division well. While I opposed the integration of the Combat Poverty Agency into the Department, we must look forward. I too would like to hear specifically what issues will be targeted in the coming years. I am concerned about budgets. There are two independent budgets. The Minister said there would be an improvement and more synergy with the merging of the two organisations. Where will savings be made? Is the current premises rented or has it been bought? What about the other premises where staff are housed? Has it been sold or is it intended to sell it? It is necessary to identify where savings have been made and where the benefits are. That is the purpose of merging the two organisations. Does the Department believe the merged organisations will come up with a better strategy for combating poverty in the future, given that so many families are facing poverty because of the worsening economic crisis?

Deputy Arthur Morgan

I regret very much that I missed the presentation. I was attending another committee meeting, but I am interested in this. We are all interested in what the new unit's level of objectivity will be in its reports and publications. I do not believe any independence remains so we will look at least for objectivity and how that develops over time. How much disruption has been caused to the work of the two former groups by this amalgamation? When is it expected to get back to full tilt, to use a sailing analogy?

I know there will be a great deal of water under the bridge before we can test the objectivity of the new division and its willingness to share information with us. That is something we must tease out over a period, along with the issue of what the Government claimed would be substantial savings from the amalgamation. It will take some time to truly test that. We will look forward to examining that in the future.

Deputy Olwyn Enright

Unfortunately, Deputy Byrne and his colleagues have left but, lest my proposal was misunderstood, I suggested that the unit be asked to attend biannually, which is twice a year. Also, given that it was said in public session, the staff of the office for social inclusion deal with the work of the office for social inclusion. They do not deal, as far as I know, and I am open to correction, with delays in the payment of jobseeker's benefit or delays in processing appeals and so on. These are dealt with by a separate division. I do not want either to give the impression that because we feel there is a need for accountability from the office that we do not believe there are other issues that need to be addressed. However, these are not the people who will address these other issues.

Vice Chairman

At the time I said I was comfortable with what was being suggested. I am sorry if that leaves me out of synch with colleagues. I invite Mr. Mangan to deal with the questions. He is welcome to deal with them in whatever order he wishes.

Mr. Gerry Mangan

I will deal with a number of questions, but I will ask my colleagues to deal with some where they are more familiar with the detail.

One general issue arose regarding our appearances before the committee. I have been director of the office for social inclusion for five years. We have appeared once before the committee and we were happy to do so. That may have contributed to the relative lack of familiarity with our work. The Combat Poverty Agency, on the other hand, was here on a more frequent basis. Needless to say, on the basis of our two bodies' contrasting experiences, we would be more than happy to be available to the committee to discuss the work we do and the outcome of our work.

One question was whether we would make submissions to other Departments. The reality is that we do not make submissions within the system seeking particular changes, but we would like to think we have much more influence because we deal directly through the office with all the main policy makers in the main Departments. On a regular basis we give comments and submissions and participate in working groups, committees and so on. As we get feedback from all the various stakeholders we feed that back to the relevant Departments. That is how we generally operate and we have found that works effectively. Our colleagues in the Combat Poverty Agency have told us they look forward to having the type of access to the policy makers that we have been fortunate to have had over the years.

Another way in which we influence progress is on the basis of our annual reports. We do not do that passively. We have the national action plan for social inclusion which contains clear goals, objectives, targets and so on. It is our job to go to individual Departments and establish the extent to which they have met the targets and objectives. These reports are in the public domain. The Deputy asked what impact the recent amalgamation had on our work. One impact, unfortunately, was that our report was a bit late. We had hoped to have it out this month but we are confident, now that we are working together, that we will have it out in September. It is an important document because it sets out very clearly what progress has been made. That is part and parcel of the whole process and, therefore, it is open to people such as the Members of the Oireachtas to become familiar with what is being planned, how well it has been done and so on.

On the evaluation front we have the poverty impact assessment. One of our main priorities is to assess and evaluate policy in terms of how effective it is. We do not go to the Department of Health and Children and tell it how effective its health policy is. Given that one of its goals was to achieve a certain outcome, perhaps, to improve the overall access to health care, we might tell it to what extent that has been achieved. We look at outcomes on the basis of promises or commitments made to see to what extent these have been met. In terms of poverty impact assessment, that is a very important goal. There might be a very general health policy. I know from experience that no policy will succeed 100% and usually the people who do not benefit or do not benefit adequately are those who are poorer and people who are marginalised. Very often one needs to take extra measures to ensure their position is safeguarded and improved.

In the late 1980s when we were undergoing a similar situation to the one we are in now, I remember former President of the European Commission, Jacques Delors, castigating countries because while they had what he termed very expensive social protection systems, a good number of people fell through the net. The systems were not picking up the most vulnerable people. It was as a result of that type of thinking that the EU has become more active in the whole social policy area and countries generally are endeavouring to work together to see how these types of challenges can be met. We are very much part of that.

Members also mentioned the question of indicators. While it may not seem very practical in the current situation, it is extremely practical because it is a way of setting out what outcomes one wants to achieve and what progress is being made. It challenges everybody concerned — policymakers, those who administer schemes and those who implement them. It is a powerful tool and is used in virtually every country. We would be regarded as being a good bit down the road in the area as opposed to some other countries. Members mentioned benchmarks. The benchmarks are set out in detail in the national social inclusion plan. There are 157 targets to be met. Those are the benchmarks that have to be observed.

The other area we would influence is terms and exchange of good practice. That can occur within countries. It is a question of being able to establish ways of doing things or policies that are successful and sometimes, maybe not published to the same extent, the exchange of bad practice and to what extent policies are not succeeding. We hope to see that facility more at national level but it is already done at EU level. A very interesting project at EU level is one where the Commissioner gathers information, including from Ireland, on the steps being taken to deal with the current crisis — what is being done about unemployment, health care and every policy area. We are then able to benefit from knowing what other countries are doing. A detailed report has been approved recently by the Council which will be made available through us and through others. These are the ways we can influence the policy from inside the system. What emerges will be brought into the public domain through the reports mentioned and whatever other way we can.

One role we do not have in the new division which the Combat Poverty Agency had was an advocacy role whereby we would make submissions advocating changes and so on. We have a different way of approaching it. One of our main mandates is to ensure that the advocacy of groups in the non-governmental sector, in the community and voluntary sector, the social partners, and so on in terms of their proposals, suggestions and criticism of bad policies gets directly to the policymakers. That is another way of monitoring what is being done. For example, the Department may say it is trying to achieve a particular outcome but those who are receiving the service give us a different picture. How does one reconcile that? It may be that it will lead to policy change, administrative change and so on. That is a very important tool.

There was a reference to the effect that we abandoned the national social inclusion strategy. It is important to point out the importance of the strategy. First, it maps the challenges and what is wrong. That will always be part of the strategy. It contains a good analysis of trends and so on. Second, it sets down the goals; sometimes these are set at a high level but it is important to know the direction we want to go. The direction is set in the context of the analysis of the problems and so on. One then sets out the measures to meet these goals. Clearly, that is where the difficulty will arise. As Deputy Shortall said, the measures set in 2007, in a totally different situation in terms of economic resources, will have to be looked at again. Hopefully, they will not be looked at in the context of abandoning the goals but to see how we can meet the goals.

Senator Nicky McFadden

I never used the word "abandoned". I said that 2016 needed to be looked at again.

Mr. Gerry Mangan

I apologise. I misinterpreted the Senator's comments and took it up wrong. I am glad that is the case. The measures need to be revised. There is awareness that the situation has changed. Therefore, we need to look at the strategy again.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

I did not say that at all. Mr. Mangan did not refer in his paper to emerging issues and the need to keep abreast of those.

Mr. Gerry Mangan

I apologise if I misinterpreted the Deputy. It was not deliberate.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

What I am saying is that the fact that Mr. Mangan did not refer to emerging issues is a matter of concern.

Mr. Gerry Mangan

Yes.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

I am concerned that the social inclusion division is stuck in 2007.

Mr. Gerry Mangan

I was trying to explain the importance of the strategy despite the change that has occurred. The report we are preparing on the outcomes achieved so far will, hopefully, address some of these concerns.

Access to information will be a major priority for us to ensure that the type of information mentioned will be available, so far as is possible. During the past five or six years, we have undertaken some research with a view to publication. For example, much of our research is done by the ESRI. The ESRI makes it a condition that if it does research it will be published and, obviously, we engaged it on that basis. It is essential that if research is undertaken that we get reactions and responses so that we know what people think of the analysis and the outcomes and so on.

Individual issues were raised. As one member said we do not off-load responsibility for individual features of the social welfare system and we would be reluctant to comment because we might get it wrong, given that we do not have the expertise. Clearly, if concerns are expressed we will report back as appropriate to the Department.

Deputy Seymour Crawford

The only reason I raised an individual issue was to indicate that what the Minister is saying in regard to the overall strategy within the Department is not being delivered on the ground.

Senator Nicky McFadden

Hear, hear.

Mr. Gerry Mangan

That is fine. The Deputy referred to rural disadvantage, a matter on which we hope to have a conference. A year ago, I attended an EU conference on rural disadvantage which was very informative. In one sense, it showed that the challenges we face in Ireland are more common across Europe than one might think and obviously solutions were proposed.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Sorry, may I intervene? Several of us will have to leave soon because we are running out of time. There are many outstanding questions. Ideally, the questions should be taken in the order in which they were asked and responded to one by one with short answers.

Mr. Gerry Mangan

In the order in which questions were asked?

Vice Chairman

Some colleagues are indicating they have other commitments. I am anxious to facilitate a situation whereby they would get the answers to the questions they posed.

Deputy Olwyn Enright

Mr. Mangan's answers have been quite long. I asked the first question on what would be different about how the division will operate. Nothing Mr. Mangan has said in the past 15 minutes gives any indication of how the office for social inclusion will operate other than exactly as it has always operated, the only difference being that it has a few extra staff from the Combat Poverty Agency. Nothing he has said would persuade me that there is any change in outlook or in how the division operates. He appears to look at poverty from a social welfare perspective and said that submissions would not be made to other Departments but instead they would deal with the main policymakers. The office has been in place for the past five years but we have not seen any difference on the ground in terms of the changes to people's lives from a poverty perspective. Will it be different given that new expertise is being brought into the office for social inclusion? Will it operate in a different way? That is the main issue I would like addressed.

Senator Nicky McFadden

Mr. Mangan spoke about challenges and an analysis but what I spoke about was that the challenges are not being met because our country has one of the worst rates of child poverty and poverty in general. My question, and it has not been answered, was how much money has the Department saved and, on the flip side, did it cost money for the Combat Poverty Agency to be subsumed into social inclusion Ireland?

Mr. Mangan said he could no longer have an advocacy role. He cannot have an advocacy role because his office is part of the Government. He said the disappointing aspect of all of this is that he will be facilitating groups; big deal; that is what he should do. He should listen to people and be in touch with what is happening on the ground. People are hungry and have nowhere to live. That is the bottom line. I apologise but I feel strongly about this issue.

I criticised Mr. Mangan and asked him about indicators. Indicators are about how Mr. Mangan's strategy is working but it is not working. I never used the word "abandon". I said 2016 is a long way off in terms of what is happening now. People are losing their jobs and their houses are being repossessed. This country is in crisis and Mr. Mangan is still talking about 2016. I ask Mr. Mangan to re-evaluate. I accept he should have goals and challenges but I am asking him about his benchmarks and targets, and that is what I would like answers to.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

I will not repeat the questions. I asked several specific questions and I would like answers to those questions.

Vice Chairman

Can I put that responsibility on to Mr. Mangan?

Mr. Gerry Mangan

Certainly. I understood the Vice Chairman to say I could answer them whatever way I thought best and I thought it better to——

Vice Chairman

To ensure we are clear on that, I indicated that I had no difficulty with Mr. Mangan's two colleagues contributing to that session. That would be the normal process.

Mr. Gerry Mangan

On the question of whether we operate differently, I explained how we operate. We are working together on all of the areas we would have been dealing with previously in terms of research. I do not have time to go into all the detail — I thought that was covered in the note — but in terms of research, communications, consulting people and so on, those are broad areas on which we will bring our expertise together. I do not have time to give the level of detail that may be necessary in regard to that but we can provide it to the committee.

Deputy Olwyn Enright

If Mr. Mangan does not have time to go through it we would be happy if he sent it to the committee so that we could read it and evaluate it.

Mr. Gerry Mangan

We have no difficulty with that. We are happy to do that. I apologise if I misunderstood what the Deputy was saying. What I am trying to say is that it is not a matter for us to scrap agreements or anything like that. We will be part of a re-evaluation process. I tried to describe our part. Our part is to report on the extent to which progress has been made. That report will outline whether the objectives are realisable, the measures that need to be taken——

Senator Nicky McFadden

Urgent measures.

Mr. Gerry Mangan

Yes. I understand Government is seized of the urgency of the current situation. I am trying to describe what our role would be in that regard. Given our size and our mandate it is not an all-embracing one by any means but we will endeavour to do that.

I would like to deal with Deputy Shortall's questions. She might remind me of them.

Ms Catherine Hazlett

I might be able to answer some of the factual questions. Deputy Shortall and other members asked about the staffing cadre in the Combat Poverty Agency and in the office in terms of the current position. In the Combat Poverty Agency the original staffing cadre was 25 posts. There were 18.5 transferring in posts. That involves 20 people on different arrangements. The vacancies that existed post-integration were 6.5 vacancies and of those, four would have been temporary posts. The contracts had been fulfilled and had expired before 1 July. The other remaining 2.5 vacancies are not being filled because they will be part of the moratorium on filling vacancies.

Within the office for social inclusion there were ten posts, including the director. In all, therefore, 30 posts are involved in the Department. Of those, 26 will be in the new division. Four of the staff posts in the agency that were involved in administration, payroll and those administrative support services will now be carried out from the Department. Those posts are being redeployed within the Department.

That brings me to the issue of the savings. In terms of the background, the purpose of the integration was to put the strong mechanisms in place to better support the social inclusion strategies and build the capacity within the Department by way of research, analysis and particularly in terms of consultation. The savings, where they arise, will arise in the way I have spoken about in terms of some of the temporary contracts and the supports services that will be absorbed within the Department. Some savings will arise from the leased accommodation arrangement in the Bridgewater Centre. The staff are moving to the Department's central location which is in Gandon House. The Department has capacity and room in its headquarters buildings to accommodate the additional staff. There is not an amount in terms of savings. The savings will accrue over time in the way I have described but the primary motivation for this was about building capacity in research, analysis and consultation.

Deputy Arthur Morgan

Does the Department have a figure for that? Can the savings be quantified?

Ms Catherine Hazlett

No.

Deputy Arthur Morgan

When does Ms Hazlett believe that might be done?

Ms Catherine Hazlett

We can put a figure on the staffing. I might need to think about that.

Deputy Arthur Morgan

Could Ms Hazlett come back to the committee on that? I appreciate she does not have it——

Ms Catherine Hazlett

Yes. We can come back to the committee with some figures on that.

Vice Chairman

We have identified some issues on which we need to get more information.

Deputy Arthur Morgan

Yes, and on the other efficiencies in the Department will Ms Hazlett give the committee the aspirational figures? That would be appreciated.

Ms Catherine Hazlett

I will certainly have a look at that. The figures would be firm enough in regard to the staff vacancies not being filled. On the premises, the leased accommodation, we have figures on that and on the redeployment of staff. On the basis of what I said we can certainly put together some figures on that part of it. On the basis of what I said also, there was not a monetary cost in that way.

Deputy Shortall raised issues of promotion, as did other Deputies, and recruitment. In the division we will be bound by the normal Civil Service rules and all the difficulties in place now as regards recruiting additional staff and filling vacancies. The normal criteria will apply in regard to that part of it.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

I found it a bit difficult to follow what Ms Hazlett said. Of the 25 original posts that had been in the Combat Poverty Agency, how many of those are being lost?

Senator Nicky McFadden

How many people have been fired and their posts not renewed?

Ms Catherine Hazlett

Four temporary contracts and——

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Four temporary posts.

Ms Catherine Hazlett

——2.5 vacancies are not being filled.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

What about the four administrative staff Ms Hazlett mentioned?

Ms Catherine Hazlett

They are being redeployed within the Department.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

They are former Combat Poverty Agency staff.

Ms Catherine Hazlett

They are. They worked on the payroll and provided HR support.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

That means that of the 25 posts, 10.5 are gone from the division. Ms Hazlett said there were four temporary posts, 2.5 posts that are not being filled and there were four administrative posts.

Ms Catherine Hazlett

Those four posts are in fact 3.5 posts.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Of the 25 posts, ten are gone.

Ms Catherine Hazlett

That is right.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

That represents a substantial loss of expertise when we were told there would not be a loss of posts. Is it the case that there are now 15 former Combat Poverty Agency staff and ten departmental staff?

Ms Catherine Hazlett

There are 15 posts and 16 people.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

There are 15 posts and ten departmental posts.

Ms Catherine Hazlett

Yes.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

What are the senior grades among those staff?

Ms Catherine Hazlett

Those of the director, a principal officer and seven staff at assistant principal level.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

The two senior people are departmental staff.

Ms Catherine Hazlett

Yes, the director and the principal officer.

Deputy Arthur Morgan

Are the staff the same staff who were in the former Combat Poverty Agency? Ms Hazlett has referred to posts, did the individuals transfer?

Ms Catherine Hazlett

Yes.

Deputy Arthur Morgan

Did the individuals transfer in all cases or were only the posts transferred in some cases?

Ms Catherine Hazlett

No, they are the individuals.

Deputy Arthur Morgan

They transferred as well.

Ms Catherine Hazlett

I only drew the distinction between people and individuals as there are more people than posts because of some part-time arrangements people have.

Deputy Olwyn Enright

How many of the assistant principal officers are from the former Combat Poverty Agency versus——

Ms Catherine Hazlett

Two are from the office for social inclusion and the others are from the former Combat Poverty Agency.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Five are from the former Combat Poverty Agency.

Ms Catherine Hazlett

Yes. A larger number of the staff in the division are from the former Combat Poverty Agency.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

However, 40% of those staff have gone. That is the critical point, 40% of the staff of the former Combat Poverty Agency have gone and those posts have gone.

Ms Catherine Hazlett

There are 6.5 posts.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Is that not the case?

Mr. Gerry Mangan

It is fair to say that the HR function has gone because it has been taken on by the Department and the people concerned were redeployed.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

I did not ask for an opinion on it. I am simply clarifying that 40% of the former Combat Poverty Agency posts have gone? Is that not the case?

Mr. Gerry Mangan

That is the case.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

The representatives might clarify the point in regard to filling vacancies as they arise and how it is proposed to maintain the specialist expertise that was in the former Combat Poverty Agency.

Ms Catherine Hazlett

In regard to the filling of vacancies as they arise, we hope no vacancies will arise in the current scenario because we are bound by the position in the Department in terms of trying to get vacancies filled. That is the position throughout the Department and the public service. The staff will be civil servants. The normal arrangement would be that when a vacancy arises we would prepare a profile of the type of work required and the expertise and experience needed to carry out that work. That would be part of our internal process and we would try to fill the vacancy on that basis.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Is there agreement, for example, that if a researcher were to resign or retire, a researcher would be brought in to fill that post?

Ms Catherine Hazlett

The staff transferred under the legislation into the Civil Service as unestablished civil servants and they had the option of being established.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

What are the qualifications and expertise of the long-term civil servants who are in that division?

Mr. Gerry Mangan

It is important to remember that we have a cadre of 4,800 civil servants in the Department of Social and Family Affairs, a high proportion of whom are university graduates.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

I asked a specific question about the qualifications of the people who are in that division.

Mr. Gerry Mangan

I do not have that information to hand but I know their qualifications, in many respects, would be up to third level. Therefore, they have significant experience——

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Can Mr. Mangan provide us with that information? Is there any assurance at any level that as specialist staff are lost from the division for whatever reason they will be replaced by people with similar expertise and qualifications?

Mr. Gerry Mangan

Our aim is always to make sure in the Civil Service and I have known this for——

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Leaving aside the generalised nature of Mr. Mangan's comments, can he give me a specific reply on that? Is there any understanding that specialist posts will be replaced?

Mr. Gerry Mangan

The first point is they are not specialist posts, they are Civil Service posts.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Therefore, the specialist expertise that currently exists will be retained.

Mr. Gerry Mangan

We always make an effort to ensure that people with the right qualifications are appointed to these posts, as would be the case with every other Civil Service post. I have no doubt but that we have absolutely sufficient expertise and qualifications within the Civil Service, within my Department of 4,800 staff, to fill these posts. It is important to bear that in mind.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Mr. Mangan might supply the committee with that information.

Mr. Gerry Mangan

With what information? With the qualifications of the 4,800 staff?

Deputy Róisín Shortall

I object to the tone of the responses we are getting. We came in here in good faith this morning. We prepared questions. All of us asked questions in a fairly succinct manner, but we have not been paid the courtesy of an adequate response to them. We have had long rambling responses that have not addressed the specific issues raised.

I did not ask for details of the qualifications of 4,500 civil servants. I have asked in a number of different ways about the qualifications of the people who are in Mr. Mangan's division and he has refused to provide an answer in that respect. That is what I want to know. I would have expected that he would have had that information. Given that there are ten people involved and he is the director, I would have hoped that he would have had that information at his fingertips. If he does not, I ask him to provide the committee with that information at an early date. It is at least 30 minutes since he began responding to questions and there are a number of outstanding questions that I and other members asked. It is not an adequate way of responding to the committee. I am quite dissatisfied with the manner in which the director is dealing with this matter and it certainly does not augur well for this division.

Mr. Gerry Mangan

I am sorry if that is how the Deputy feels. We have been trying our best to answer the questions in the best way we can, so it has not been deliberate in any sense.

In terms of the other question, I thought I had given a commitment that we would provide details of the qualifications. If we were to bring people into the division from outside, I was trying to make the point that there are many qualified people outside the division. Some of my staff or people with whom I work in the Department are concerned that staff are being portrayed as not being qualified to work in these posts. Many representations have been made to me about that. If I come across rather strongly on that point, it was to try to respond to the concerns expressed by them. We will certainly supply the information requested. These people would have been recruited to posts that would have existed in the office for social inclusion but they would not have been recruited on the basis of their qualifications but on the basis of their experience which would have made them suitable for the particular posts. I have no difficulty in supplying the qualifications of the staff concerned.

Chairman

Are there other questions to be dealt with?

Ms Catherine Hazlett

One of the Deputies asked about the immediate work we have in hand in the two divisions. We will give a quick flavour of some of the upcoming work we expect to complete in the next few months. Mr. Jim Walsh might elaborate on this. This part involves the combined work programme of the two areas for two years.

Mr. Jim Walsh

As regards what would be different, the approach taken by the former board of the Combat Poverty Agency and its staff was to transfer the agency's dynamic, which people have referred to, into the new division. That is what the board and the staff worked towards achieving. The strategic plan would reflect a lot of the functions of the Combat Poverty Agency. We would bring that way of working with us; we do not leave it behind. The learning curve for us will be to see how that dynamic will play out in a different setting, which I suppose will be the learning experience. However, all the work we have been doing with the HSE, such as building healthy communities, community participation in health, work with local government, our work on financial inclusion, fuel poverty and reviewing the schoolbook scheme, is continuing. The cross departmental work, which has been highlighted, will be an important part of the new division.

Research was highlighted along with the issues being focused on in that regard. We have been preparing a review of emerging poverty risks. That paper, to be published shortly, will be available to the new division and will hopefully inform the workplan for the division for the remainder of this year and for 2010. A number of other studies are coming to fruition, including one on low-paid employment. We were also part of a Council of Europe study which put forward a number of recommendations to address the issue of low-paid work. That Council of Europe study will be published later this year, along with our own study. We also have a study on managing on a low income. Together with Sustainable Energy Ireland, we have a study on evaluating the warmer homes scheme. We also have a study reviewing the schoolbook scheme with the Department of Education and Science. In addition, we have ongoing work on over-indebtedness. That work is continuing.

We are also committed to ensuring access to that research. The mechanisms we have traditionally used will continue, such as action on poverty today, our library and website and our research seminars.

We are trying to ensure that the historical legacy will continue in the new division. So far, the only thing I have seen that will change is that we will no longer be issuing press releases. That is the only tangible change so far. More may emerge, but the commitment is to bring forward the dynamic of the Combat Poverty Agency. The point was made about the agency having been in touch with communities and being a bridge builder in the everyday experience of poverty, and that is what we want to continue. The strategic plan contains a strong commitment to participation and consultation, as well as hearing the voice and transferring that voice into Government to ensure that it is heard.

There was also a question of the transition in terms of the agency's work performance. It has had an impact — I presume, on both organisations — in two ways. First, we have lost some staff and positions were left vacant. Second, a lot of work had to go into the transition itself. We tried as far as possible to ring-fence that work and ensure that our other work continued. We have done that to our maximum ability, but when one is closing down an organisation it obviously has an impact on resources. We tried to ring-fence that as far as possible.

The Senator highlighted the poor performance on child poverty, which is clearly the case. Ireland does poorly in terms of child poverty. I am glad to say that in the new strategic plan, child poverty is one of the priority issues. It will also be a priority issue for the EU in 2010. We will be engaging with the Office of the Minister for Children to examine child poverty and make sure that more work is done to address the issue.

As regards engaging with policy and other Government agencies, it will be a learning experience for us. We will not be making submissions to Government Departments but we will be using other mechanisms. An important tool the division has — and, as I have said before, one that will become more important — involves poverty impact assessments. As we are facing into a situation where there may be more savings or cutbacks in public services, poverty impact assessments become even more important. They will show that whatever cuts are made in public services, as proposed by an bord snip nua, the interests of people on low incomes are protected and ring-fenced. I consider that poverty impact assessment will become an important tool, which will be central to the work of the new division. It will ensure that any proposed changes in public services will be scrutinised as to their impact on poverty. That will be done across all Government Departments and agencies.

Deputy Olwyn Enright

I thank Mr. Walsh for his response, which provided more clarity on the work that is ongoing, as well as what is being lost or retained. My main question concerns the format of how that will work. Mr. Walsh's first point was that the main difference will be that he will not be doing press releases. It comes back to the issue of independence that the Combat Poverty Agency had versus that of the office for social inclusion. He also said he would not be making submissions, but there are mechanisms available such as poverty impact assessments. What will the format be for making that type of information public? That is the most important thing. Mr. Walsh and his colleagues can do all the assessments in the world, but if nobody knows about them they will be no good to anyone. The first port of call in deciding policy is the Government. However, if this is to be an accountable democracy, we need to be aware of the basis on which the Government is making its decisions and what advice it is receiving. What basis will be there for that? I know we will be able to question Mr. Walsh and his colleagues on the poverty impact assessments, but how will we know about ongoing work and the advice to Ministers and committees? The reason I am asking this is because I have so little faith, although not necessarily in what Mr. Walsh and his colleagues are doing themselves. There was a Cabinet sub-committee that was to examine the issue of poverty and involve all Departments. Earlier this year, we discovered that it had not met in 11 months, so that is the attention that is being given to poverty at that level. I know Mr. Walsh cannot comment on that, but that is why we are so concerned. Some of the responses today have been defensive. I want the new organisation to work, but in doing so it needs to be accountable. We need to be satisfied that it is working because that is our job. I need a lot more information. I have no doubt that Mr. Walsh and his colleagues will be appearing before this committee again and I will then be expecting far more informative answers than we have received today.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

We will obviously deal with this committee's access to research in private session. I will certainly be seeking guarantees from the Minister that it will be available to us on an ongoing basis. I am not so sure about the whole question of poverty impact assessments. I would like to think that they would constitute an important tool, but some of the assessments on recent budgets have been fairly toothless. Our fear is that a courageous and independent agency working, researching and advocating in the poverty area has essentially gone now, so the dynamic will be lost. I would like to think that in future we will have more robust poverty impact assessments. We will be watching that space carefully, but it will be a measure of the extent to which the ethos of Combat Poverty has, or has not, been retained within the new division. That approach should be retained along with the campaigning aspect and evidence-based advocacy.

I am extremely concerned that 40% of the posts have already been lost in the past couple of months. What is the status of the remaining 15 posts relating to the Combat Poverty Agency? Are those posts guaranteed on an indefinite basis going forward? Do they have the luxury of being regarded as Civil Service posts? Can we look forward to those 15 people remaining in this division and continuing the work that has proven to be so valuable in recent years?

Deputy Catherine Byrne

It is clear from previous speakers that there is disappointment, a small amount of anger but most of all frustration in respect of this matter. I thank Mr. Walsh for the clarification he provided in respect of communities. The Combat Poverty Agency thrived in communities and I hope that its work in this regard will continue. I thank Ms Hazlett for explaining the position with regard to staff. I do not like percentages, so sometimes it is better to deal in figures.

I inquired as to the size of the budget but an answer was not provided in that regard. Mr. Mangan stated that the staff from the Combat Poverty Agency might not possess the qualifications required within the Department. I may have misunderstood what he said but I find that somewhat disturbing.

This session has been of great assistance to me. Most of the time, these meetings are extremely informative because they provide members with an opportunity to discover how different groups operate. It comes down to communication and receiving information and I accept that the questions posed by members can sometimes seem harsh. I thank our guests for attending because this is something of a new departure. We do not want to throw the baby out with the bath water immediately and we need to give things time to function. Will our guests indicate the size of the budget and how it is allocated?

Mr. Gerry Mangan

I will reply to some of the questions before asking my colleagues to contribute. It is good that Deputy Catherine Byrne has found our exchanges helpful. They have also proven to be of assistance to us because we have become aware of the concerns of members and the level of accountability they expect of us.

With regard to how we can retain certain aspects of the Combat Poverty Agency — an organisation which members have found to be extremely helpful — as civil servants, we are constrained as to what we can say in public. However, this does not mean that what we do is not effective — but from a different perspective — or that it is not reported on. It is difficult for us to indicate what we might say in respect of particular policy areas. That is very much the responsibility of the individual Departments. We publish detailed reports on what has been achieved and we try to be as accountable as possible. I hope these reports facilitate members in monitoring the progress that has been made. We also ensure that research which has been commissioned is published.

The advice we provided will sometimes be in response to issues that arise in the context of Government memoranda, at committees of the Houses, in discussions with officials from other Departments, etc. It is not provided in a formal way. Due to the fact that the Combat Poverty Agency was outside the system and independent in that regard, its advice had to be provided on a more formal basis and was placed in the public domain. Essentially, that is where the difference lies.

Ms Catherine Hazlett

The annual budget of the office for social inclusion is in the region of €140,000. This is not comparable with the annual budget of just over €4 million to which the Combat Poverty Agency, which was independent, had access. This is because all our staff, stationery and publication costs are dealt with centrally. It is, therefore, very difficult to make a comparison. The budget of the Combat Poverty Agency became available to the Department from 1 July. The element of the budget that was earmarked for salaries, IT costs, etc., will be allocated within the Department in respect of salaries and payroll costs. All commitments and contracts that are in place in respect of research, projects and communications will be honoured. As I understand it, that budget will be in place as a separate subhead until the end of the year. Thereafter, the division's budget will come within the Department's overall budget.

We would be seeking to spend money in respect of research and other matters such as project work. I cannot quantify the amount in this regard because it falls outside our strategic plan. The office for social inclusion has its own research budget at present but we have yet to establish the amount that will be allocated in respect of research within the new division. We will start with the research programme and the work we can undertake in the next year or two will form part of the strategic plan. At that point, as is the norm in the Civil Service, we will be obliged to seek the resources and money necessary to undertake those commitments.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

What is the existing research budget?

Ms Catherine Hazlett

It is €80,000 for this year. The office for social inclusion has one contract in place in respect of research. The budget for next year will be €100,000.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

What would the budget of the Combat Poverty Agency have been in this regard?

Mr. Gerry Mangan

It was €500,000.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Okay. What is the status of the remaining 15 posts?

Ms Catherine Hazlett

Those posts will be transferred to the office for social inclusion and that is where they will remain. This will be our staffing cadre.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Are those 15 people now established civil servants?

Ms Catherine Hazlett

I understand one has opted not to take an established position but is staying on in an unestablished capacity. Some 19 of the 20 people coming in have taken up the option of becoming established civil servants.

Vice Chairman

Does unestablished mean that the individual in question will be operating on a contract basis?

Ms Catherine Hazlett

No. It is very complicated to explain exactly what is involved. The majority of the staff coming into the office were very keen that they should have established status. That process was recently completed.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

So the 15 posts to which I refer are established.

Ms Catherine Hazlett

As already stated, 19 of the 20 coming in were established.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Yes, but four staff have moved elsewhere so there are 15 within the division.

Ms Catherine Hazlett

Yes.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Is there a guarantee that those 15 posts will remain within the division?

Ms Catherine Hazlett

I am not in a position to state that such a guarantee exists. As with the Civil Service in general, as managers within the Department we are trying to retain all the posts that currently exist. As long as we have the people there, matters will be fine.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Could the number of posts be whittled away?

Ms Catherine Hazlett

That could happen over time. The Department is under pressure and is trying to fill every vacancy. I can only speak as a manager within the Department. We are hopeful that any vacancies, should they arise, will be filled.

Vice Chairman

Does Mr. Mangan wish to make any concluding comments?

Mr. Gerry Mangan

I thank Deputies for the challenging questions which, at times, they posed. We did our best to provide satisfactory answers. Perhaps the replies I provided were not as succinct as I would have liked. We are available if the committee wishes us to be of further assistance or to come before it again. Attendance at meetings certainly assists us in the context of being in a position to provide answers in the way members would like. We have undertaken to provide further information and we will endeavour to do so as soon as possible.

Vice Chairman

Follow-up replies are required in respect of a number of queries and we would appreciate it if the relevant information could be provided as soon as possible.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

When can we expect to receive the strategic plan?

Mr. Gerry Mangan

The intention is to have it in September and we will ensure the committee receives a copy of it.

Vice Chairman

I thank the officials for their attendance. It was an interesting meeting.

The joint committee went into private session at 1.30 p.m. and adjourned at 1.35 p.m. until Wednesday, 22 July 2009.