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JOINT COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL AND FAMILY AFFAIRS debate -
Wednesday, 3 Feb 2010

Departmental Priorities for 2010: Discussion with Minister for Social and Family Affairs.

I welcome the Minister for Social and Family Affairs, Deputy Mary Hanafin, and her officials to the meeting. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I ask the Minister to make her opening statement on her priorities as Minister for Social and Family Affairs, as per the timetable circulated to members. On foot of a request from Deputy Olwyn Enright, I have agreed to raise with the Minister the withdrawal of pensions from certain categories of pensioners. In this context the clerk sent a letter to the Minister's private secretary enclosing a copy of the letter from Deputy Enright giving full details of the issue to be raised. Perhaps the Minister can respond to this in due course.

I ask the Minister to make her opening statement.

I thank the Chairman and members of the joint committee for the opportunity to discuss the issues that I regard as current priorities for the Department of Social and Family Affairs. I will probably not speak for 20 minutes but I will, at the end of this presentation, address the pensions issue raised by Deputy Enright. I look forward to what I hope will be a constructive meeting and to the opportunity to share ideas with members.

As members may be aware, 2010 is the European year for combating poverty and social exclusion. The Government is determined to ensure that we do as much as we can to assist the wide range of people such as jobseekers, people with disabilities, carers and pensioners who depend on the welfare budget for vital support. We are doing our utmost, in the context of a very tough budgetary environment, to protect the most vulnerable people in society.

Some €21.1 billion will be spent on social welfare this year, which is €676 million or 3.3% more than the expected final expenditure figure of €20.4 billion for 2009. Given the breadth of the social welfare area, it is naturally very difficult to pick just a few priorities and I will be happy to respond to any issues that members raise after my opening address. In the interests of brevity I will focus now on five areas. These are: ensuring timely access to income supports for jobseekers in particular; measures to get people back into work; assistance with debt problems, including mortgage debt; pensions policy; and tackling fraud and payment errors.

My main priority in 2010 is to ensure that customers get paid on time. I fully appreciate that becoming unemployed and having to claim a jobseeker's payment is stressful enough in itself and that it is vital that people get access to financial supports as quickly as possible. As members will all be aware, the number of people on the live register grew by more than 34% in the 12 months to January 2010. The Department has sought to manage this increase as well as it possibly can and to keep delays to a minimum. Improved processes and procedures have helped to increase productivity among existing staff. More than 400 extra people have been assigned to claim processing since May 2008 and centralised units have been set up to relieve some of the pressure on the busiest offices. At the same time the Department has been examining all aspects of the work associated with the processing of claims and streamlining them wherever possible without compromising scheme controls.

The average processing times for claims decided in December were two weeks for jobseeker's benefit and just over six weeks for the jobseeker's allowance. This is the average nationally and there are fluctuations between offices. In December, four out of every five claims for jobseeker's benefit were processed within three weeks and two out of every three claims for the means tested payment, jobseeker's allowance, were processed within six weeks. This is the average nationally.

While processing times are still too long in some areas, the additional resources and process improvement measures that have been put in place are having an impact. For example, the number of jobseeker's claims awaiting a decision on 9 January last was 30% lower than in July. Processing times can vary depending on the complexity of the claim and the availability of the necessary documentation from the applicant and-or their employer. In the case of jobseeker's allowance claims, carrying out means assessments and determining whether a claimant satisfies the habitual residence condition can also take time. Processing times can also vary from office to office due to the extent of the increased claim load, the number of staff vacancies, the duration of such vacancies and the turnover of staff in the office.

A number of initiatives are planned for the coming year to reduce delays. Members will be aware that a new system was piloted in some local offices last year through which most jobseeker's benefit claims can be taken and decided upon during one personal pre-arranged appointment. This has now been rolled out to 33 local offices. We intend to extend it to a further four offices over the next month or so and more throughout the year. We have currently on trial a new arrangement for customers who are applying for jobseeker's allowance on the termination of their jobseeker's benefit entitlement. In such cases, where there are no elements of self employment or property involved in the means assessment, the person will self-certify the various components of his or her means and a decision will be made by the deciding officer without the need to refer the claim to an inspector. As a control measure, a certain proportion of these claims will be selected at random and will be referred to an inspector for verification of the declaration of means. It is expected that this initiative will be rolled out to the network of local offices in the coming months. These and other initiatives should help to reduce processing times for jobseekers' schemes in particular. Measures are also being put in place to try to minimise delays in processing other payments.

Apart from providing people with timely access to financial supports after they lose their jobs, the Government is determined to keep as many people as possible in work and to help people to move from welfare and back into employment. While the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment has primary responsibility for job creation and employment strategy, my Department has a specific role to play in welfare-to-work measures.

Last year, improvements were made to the back to education allowance and the back to work enterprise allowance. The work placement programme was also established, allowing people to gain nine months' work experience while continuing to receive their existing social welfare entitlements. The programme will ensure that the unemployed are job ready and are still attached to the labour market and will therefore be better positioned to avail of new job opportunities when they arise.

The programme was originally launched in May 2009 and it was reviewed in November with revised criteria coming into operation from 1 December 2009. The revised criteria considerably broaden the accessibility of participants and providers to the programme. The Department of Finance has confirmed that the work placement programme will continue to operate in the public service and is not affected by the moratorium on recruitment.

A number of other measures have been taken over the past year to help move people off welfare and into work, education or training. We have placed a particular focus on jobseekers aged under 25 by sending education information out to them and by changing the jobseeker's allowance to provide a significant financial incentive for them to take up education, training or employment. We have also ensured that apprentices who are being laid off from the construction industry are referred to FÁS as soon as they sign on and a network of 63 facilitators is now in place to provide information on progression options to people on social welfare.

I mention two developments planned for 2010 which we expect to be of particular benefit. The first is the new employer jobs (PRSI) incentive scheme, announced in the budget. Under this initiative, an employer who takes on a person who has been on the live register or work placement programme for six months or more will be fully exempted, subject to certain substitution conditions, from the liability to pay the employer's portion of PRSI for the first year of that employment. The legislative basis for this scheme will be provided in the spring social welfare Bill but it will apply to qualifying jobs created since January.

We also intend to implement revised activation arrangements in 2010 which will be grounded in a profiling system using the statistical model developed by the Department in conjunction with the ESRI. Profiling will facilitate early targeted intervention for those who need it most, resulting in better outcomes and potential programme savings. The profiling model uses a range of characteristics, and weighting applied to them, to predict who is likely to become long-term unemployed. The characteristics include education level, literacy or numeracy difficulties, age, gender, number of children, history of unemployment, etc. The accuracy, or predictive capacity of the model developed, is high by international standards. It is particularly accurate in predicting outcomes at 12 months. At the 80% cut off point — that is those estimated to have an 80% chance of remaining unemployed — the model is 83% accurate for males and 85% accurate for females. Essentially, when the profiling system is ready, we intend to move from the current arrangements, whereby everyone is referred to FÁS after three months on the live register to a system which refers those most at risk of long-term unemployment at a much earlier stage.

Apart from jobseekers in general, there are two other groups of people for whom the Government would like to see greater social inclusion through employment as appropriate. These are lone parents and people with disabilities. The current one-parent family payment provides long-term income support until children are 18, or 22 if in full-time education, to those parenting alone. This duration of payment is not in the best interests of the recipients, their children or society. Social welfare supports for lone parents should be designed to do the following: prevent long-term dependence on social welfare income support and facilitate financial independence; recognise parental choice with regard to care of young children, but with the expectation that parents will not remain outside of the labour force indefinitely; and include an expectation of participation in education, training and employment, with supports provided in this regard.

To meet these social policy objectives the Government is considering various options for limiting the length of time for which the one-parent family payment can be paid, including the age of the youngest child. Any such changes would be phased in over a period of years for existing recipients to enable lone parents to access education and training and to prepare for their return to the labour market. The proposal will bring Ireland's support for lone parents more into line with international provisions where there is a general movement away from long-term and passive income support. The EU countries achieving the best outcomes in terms of tackling child poverty are those that are combining strategies aimed at facilitating access to employment and enabling services, for example child care, with income support.

It will not be possible to progress some of the proposals as outlined in the Government discussion paper, including the removal of the cohabitation rule, due, in part, to current economic conditions. The question of the relative treatment of two-adult versus one-adult households in the social welfare system has been a source of some debate over the years and I understand the committee is currently examining this issue. I look forward to hearing the outcome of these deliberations. There are, clearly, some economies of scale arising in shared households, and it is reasonable that a means-tested scheme should take account of these. ESRI research concluded that, at income levels similar to social welfare rates, the income required by a couple to reach the same standard of living as a single adult was approximately 170% of the single adult rate, which is the rate currently used in the Department. To remove limitation, that is to pay two full adult rates to a couple, is very costly and not feasible in the current economic climate. The Government is also conscious that income supports are not sufficient in themselves to address issues of parenting alone. Issues including access to child care support, education, training and activation measures must also be addressed by the relevant Departments and agencies if lone parents are to be enabled to access employment.

In the area of disability policy, the Department is examining how to address a key limitation in the current system. As committee members will know, the structure of welfare provision in Ireland for people with illnesses or disabilities reflects a view that people could be simply categorised into those who were capable of full-time work and those who were not. In essence, this places the focus on incapacity rather than capacity. This is something I am keen to see addressed. The OECD, for instance, commented in a recent study on the barriers facing people with disabilities that the focus on incapacity rather than capacity carries negative consequences for people with disabilities and their families, who may be trapped in welfare dependency as well as having a negative impact on labour supply. The intention is to introduce enabling legislation in the forthcoming social welfare Bill to facilitate the introduction, on a pilot basis, of a partial capacity scheme. The timing of the introduction of this pilot scheme will depend on getting the necessary structures in place, for instance with regard to developing appropriate medical protocols to be used in determining the level of capacity which a claimant will have. I hope the scheme can be in place during this calendar year. The Department will also focus attention on the recommendations emerging from a review of the disability allowance scheme, which is currently being finalised. Among other things, the review has been examining the factors which have given rise to the substantial increase in the numbers availing of the scheme, the effectiveness of the arrangements in place to facilitate the taking up of employment and the approach of activation of people with disabilities.

The third key priority I would like to discuss is assistance for people with debt problems, including mortgage arrears. As members will be aware, the Money, Advice and Budgeting Service operates 65 offices around the country, where people can meet with advisers and get face-to-face help with debt problems. It also runs a national helpline and a website advising on general debt issues —www.mabs.ie. MABS advisers can negotiate with lenders, including mortgage lenders, on behalf of their clients. Under the Financial Regulator’s statutory code of conduct on mortgage arrears, published in February 2009, lenders must refer borrowers in difficulty to MABS so that they can have access to independent advice and assistance. A protocol has also been agreed between MABS and the Irish Banking Federation. Under this agreement, IBF members are committed to working with MABS and seeking to agree an affordable and sustainable repayment plan for people who cannot meet their current mortgage payments. IBF lenders have also committed that legal action will not commence as long as there is compliance with the repayment plan.

Some members raised with me on previous occasions the issue of waiting times for MABS appointments. All MABS offices operate an appointment system for clients. Clients with urgent difficulties are prioritised for attention and are dealt with promptly. Less urgent cases are referred to the MABS helpline and to the MABS website in the first instance. Over 90% of callers to the helpline find that their money management and budgeting issues can be resolved with the assistance of the helpline adviser. Some 10% of callers are referred to the local MABS for assistance. From first point of contact to first appointment with a money advisor, the average waiting time is currently 4.5 weeks. During the waiting period, clients are assessed and those in need of immediate assistance are given a priority appointment. Others are provided with assisted self-help to ensure that they have taken steps to assess their situation and, if appropriate, they are supported to take holding action with their creditors. In 2009, funding of almost €18 million was allocated to MABS. This included provision for 19 additional money advisers, bringing the total number of staff to 271. MABS funding for 2010 is included in the CIB allocation of almost €46 million.

Aside from assisting people to agree new repayment plans with lenders, the Department also funds the mortgage interest supplement scheme to provide financial support to people who are unable to meet their mortgage repayments as a result of a change in their circumstances, such as loss of employment. At the end of December 2009, there were 15,100 people in receipt of mortgage interest supplement. Recipient numbers have increased almost fourfold since the end of 2007. The mortgage interest supplement provides an invaluable support to people all over the country who have lost their jobs. The scheme is being kept under review to ensure that it remains effective in the context of the current economic environment.

The issue of the most appropriate comprehensive response to mortgage arrears crosses a number of Departments and for that reason the Government established an interdepartmental group under the chairmanship of the Department of Finance. The Department of Social and Family Affairs is represented on this group. The broader issues of personal debt, including debt enforcement, are also being considered by the Government, under the leadership of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

Before I leave the area of housing supports, I would like to mention our priorities for the rent supplement scheme. In order to ensure that taxpayers' money is not being used to pay inflated rents to private landlords, and to reflect the downward trend in rental prices in recent times, the maximum rent limits which apply to the rent supplement scheme are being reviewed again and new limits will be put in place. We will also work closely with the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to ensure that more people are moved onto the rental accommodation scheme. Our overriding objective with regard to mortgage interest and rent supplements is to help people cope with long-term difficulties with paying their mortgage interest or rent costs, while avoiding long-term dependency on these supports.

Our priority with regard to the national pensions framework is to ensure it is published as soon as possible. The Taoiseach and Minister for Finance have indicated we hope to be in a position to publish it shortly.

The final priority area I would like to discuss is the measures the Department is taking to tackle fraud and payment errors. I assure members that the Department continues to prioritise control, using every available means to crack down on welfare fraud. Over 750,000 individual social welfare cases were reviewed in 2009, resulting in €484 million savings through fraud and control measures, compared with €476 million saved in 2008. Savings on one-parent family payments realised over €117 million, followed by illness schemes with savings of almost €90 million. There were child benefit payment savings of just over €89 million, savings across pension schemes of €84 million and savings in jobseekers' payments of €60 million. In addition, some 1,560 employers underwent PRSI compliance inspections, which secured €5.6 million in savings. The Department constantly refines the systems it uses to reduce fraud and error in the context of emerging risks. For example, we have ensured that new recipients of jobseeker's payment must collect their money in person, we are targeting anti-fraud activity in the Border areas at applicants with a previous address in Northern Ireland and we are issuing more frequent mail shots to non-Irish nationals in receipt of child benefit requiring them to certify their continuing entitlement to the payment. Last year, new data matches were put in place with bodies such as the Personal Injuries Assessment Board, the Criminal Injuries Compensation Tribunal, the UK Department for Work and Pensions and local authorities to identify undisclosed income.

I recently announced a new on-line facility for members of the public to report their suspicions of social welfare fraud. With the new service, members of the public are asked to provide as much detail as possible about the case they are reporting, and with the on-line facility they can do so completely anonymously.

This past year members of the public have shown a distinct lack of tolerance for abuse of the welfare system and are increasingly reporting alleged cases of fraud. In the past 12 months, our central control section had more than 6,400 reports from members of the public compared to just over 1,000 in 2008. Members of the public can phone, write or e-mail in their suspicions, and the new on-line facility means that this can be done directly and anonymously from the Department's website. Each of these reports is followed up to see if action is necessary, and very good intelligence information is being provided for our inspectors to follow up.

The Department has also ensured that the risk of overpayment has been reduced through the development of more integrated IT systems. As members will be aware, we also included extra powers in the recent Social Welfare Bill in regard to bulk exchange of information with other countries, vehicle checkpoints and receiving information from financial institutions.

The 2010 target for control savings is €533 million and we intend to achieve this through effective controls at the applications stage and through reviews of claims already in payment. The first public service cards are expected to be issued in the second half of 2010. This new card will include a photograph and a signature. One of the anticipated advantages of the new card is that it will help to reduce fraud and error which result from the incorrect identification of benefit claimants.

The Minister skipped the section on pensions.

I did so because I was afraid I would run out of time. As members have the script, I thought we could take it as read. I wanted to get to the section on farm partnerships and I only have 20 minutes.

Pensions is a huge area. The Minister should deal with it.

I am happy to go through it but I was afraid I would run out of time. I thought the fact that the script had been circulated would be of help to members.

Perhaps we should have taken it all as read. The Minister is deciding what gets priority. Pensions is a massive area of responsibility.

If the Chair is agreeable——

The Minister is welcome to read the section on pensions.

I am happy to do so as it feeds in well to the last remaining section, which also concerns pensions. The priority is to publish the national pensions framework as soon as possible. The Government is aware that the wider and longer-term pensions policy issues require a comprehensive and co-ordinated response and has been considering a number of options to address the challenges facing our pension system. Uncertainty in the economic climate has increased the complexity of the decisions we must make but it does not prevent or deter the Government from making these vitally necessary decisions.

While I am not in a position to announce what will be included in the framework, I can tell the committee what Government sees as the key issues for long-term reform, namely, ensuring that more people have a pension, which is essential; addressing the adequacy of contribution levels so that people can have a comfortable retirement; focusing on those in the workforce, some 50%, who still do not have supplementary pension cover; and ensuring that responsibility for pension provision is shared between the individual, the employer and the State.

We must be clear that the State cannot continue to take the main role in pension provision, given the sustainability of the public finances and the demographic projections we face. Many people are already taking on responsibility for their own pensions and, as a Government, we must work to further promote that aim. However, we must do so by ensuring that Government incentives are provided equally to all pension holders. The recent commitment in the programme for Government to introduce, in the context of the framework, a 33% rate of tax relief for all those who contribute to pension schemes is aimed at delivering such equity. We set this new "hybrid" rate at a level which will provide additional support for those on lower incomes, while at the same time ensuring there is sufficient support for higher earners so that, although they will receive less relief, it is still at a level which makes contributing to a pension scheme attractive.

People should be confident and secure about their retirement expectations. They should not arrive at pension age and find that their incomes are well below what has been promised to them. Our system must provide certainty so that everyone can look forward to retirement, confident that their pensions are safe. Our objective must be a pension system which will deliver an adequate retirement income for all, while at the same time being affordable and sustainable for the State and those who sponsor and provide occupational pensions systems. While taking out a pension may not be a priority for many people at the moment, we must remember that pension saving is a long-term issue and will help to ensure that people do not experience a significant drop in their incomes upon retirement.

It will not be possible for the Government to address everyone's concerns. However, I and the Government are determined that the actions we take will be aimed at ensuring we reform on a basis that is fair, transparent and sustainable. It is precisely because the development of the national pensions framework involves decisions on such a wide range of future and complex issues that we have been spending a considerable amount of time working on it. Deputies will be aware that several measures were taken in the last year to deal with the immediate situation. The Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance have both indicated that we hope to be in a position to publish the framework shortly.

An issue that is of particular worry to some concerns pensions for spouses, particularly in regard to farm partnerships. I wish to address this issue, which is also on the agenda of the committee today. Spouses who are actively engaged in a commercial partnership, including the operation of a farm, as opposed to simply being the joint owners of a property, are treated as individual self-employed contributors. In these cases, both spouses are liable to pay PRSI, class S, contributions in a timely manner.

The qualifying conditions for the State contributory pension require the applicant to have entered insurable employment before attaining the age of 56 years, have at least 260 paid contribution weeks since entry into insurance and satisfy the yearly average condition. In addition, section 110(1) of the Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005 provides that a self-employed contributor shall not be regarded as satisfying the qualifying conditions unless the person has paid self-employment contributions in respect of at least one contribution year before attaining pensionable age, and all self-employment contributions payable by him or her have been paid. Section 110(1)(a) of the Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005 has been on the statute books for more than 15 years and there has not been a change in policy in regard to the requirement to have paid at least one year’s self employment contributions prior to reaching age 66 to qualify for a State contributory pension.

On foot of a programme for Government commitment, an information leaflet entitled "Working with your spouse: how it affects your social welfare contributions and entitlements" was developed between the Department of Social and Family Affairs and the Revenue Commissioners to set out the social welfare and tax implications of families co-working in a shared business. It was published on 25 June 2008. While the publication of the leaflet clarified existing procedures in regard to the recognition of commercial partnerships between husbands and wives for social insurance purposes, including retrospective payment of social insurance, it did not involve a change in existing policy or administration. In particular, the clarification of the position did not alter people's potential entitlements, and all applicants for the contributory State pension must continue to satisfy the eligibility conditions in legislation.

Following the publication of the leaflet and the associated information campaign, approximately 1,000 people applied for recognition of a commercial partnership with their spouses. Of these, 579 cases have been decided on the basis of whether they qualify as a partnership. Some 508 of those were deemed to have a partnership in existence and, of these, 268 have applied for a State contributory pension.

Following a review of these pension claims, it was discovered that several individuals who had been in receipt of a pension did not satisfy the condition whereby they were required to have paid at least one year's self-employment contributions before reaching the age of 66. As they did not satisfy this condition, they have been notified that their claims have been disallowed from the date of pension award. To date, 97 claims for contributory State pension which were in payment have been disallowed and 16 customers have had their rates reduced. However, following the provision of additional information by some customers and further investigation in conjunction with Revenue, 12 of the 97 cases have had their payments reinstated. A further 46 customers have failed to satisfy the qualifying conditions and, accordingly, their claims have been refused. One further case is currently under investigation.

A State pension is a valuable benefit and it is important that the conditions applied ensure that those qualifying for payment have an adequate and sustained history of contributions to the social insurance fund over their working lives. Overpayments will be determined in cases and the customers will be notified and requested to repay the amounts involved. A recovery officer may reduce or cancel an overpayment based on the circumstances of an individual case, in line with governing legislation. I acknowledge that some of the people in question are elderly. A personal and sensitive approach will be taken in dealing with them.

The Department understands and apologises for the upset and distress caused to the people in question and regrets the administrative error involved. The scope section of the Department is processing 121 additional applications for commercial partnerships where the persons concerned have not paid any self-employment contributions prior to reaching 66 years of age. If a favourable partnership decision is reached, the persons concerned may incur a PRSI liability for the years in question. Such customers will not satisfy the condition that they paid self-employment contributions prior to reaching 66 years of age.

The Department recently contacted all applicants to advise them of the position and ascertain whether they wish the Department to continue its investigation or if they wish to withdraw their application. The Department's policy on this issue and its budget for it has not changed. The Department made a genuine administrative mistake. I apologise for the error and any distress it may have caused.

I thank the joint committee for affording me an opportunity to discuss the Department's priorities for 2010. I have highlighted a few of the issues of particular importance rather than providing an exhaustive list. I will be pleased to respond to any other matters in which members are interested.

I welcome the Minister and thank her for her presentation. I note that many of her priorities are identical to the Department's priorities for previous years, including during the period of office of her predecessor. Progress in resolving these issues has still not been achieved. Pensions and lone parents are two such issues which strike one immediately. Before I was elected to the House, Ministers were producing plans to address the pensions issue. Nothing has been done to resolve the problem or to get people back to work.

Last year, we were informed that a review was being carried out on mortgage interest supplement. Has the review, which the Minister failed to mention, been finalised? Will it be made available to members before the social welfare Bill is introduced in the spring?

I am concerned about the lack of uniformity in the decisions taken by community welfare officers on applications for mortgage interest supplement. I am also concerned at the large number of decisions to refuse applications on the basis that the original loan was too large or should not have been granted in the first instance. In the current climate, one could probably argue that half the population should not have had their home loans approved. Those who have lost their jobs believed they had the capacity to repay these loans and did not expect to be made unemployed. They are being refused assistance on an arbitrary basis in the sense that decisions are based on community welfare officers' belief that the original loan should not have been approved. This is an unfair and pointless approach as it results in people leaving their homes, joining local authority housing waiting lists and availing of rent supplement or the rental accommodation scheme. As a result, the Department does not make any savings. This matter needs to be addressed. I ask the Minister to comment.

I am not sure if the Minister saw the "Prime Time" programme last night, which featured the case of a woman who was approved for a 40 year loan at the age of, I believe, 38 years. The woman in question stated she would have to repay the loan until she was 78. While I accept the loan should not have been approved, the woman now finds herself in a difficult position. Deputy Thomas Byrne and I will shortly produce a report on this matter on behalf of the joint committee. What plans does the Government have to address this problem?

The Minister will be aware of the figures on joblessness published today. She will also be aware that people are terrified that interest rates will increase in the coming months, particularly among people of a particular age group. The Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Eamon Ryan, announced that action will be taken on the matter. What role will the Department play in this given that it must deal with those whom all other Departments have effectively failed?

On rent supplement, I am concerned by the Minister's comments that new limits will be set. The scheme has been targeted three times. While I am in favour of securing value for money, which is possible, I am concerned that vulnerable tenants are left with the task of negotiating with landlords. Such tenants frequently do not have the appropriate skills to engage in negotiations and must deal with landlords who have a different mentality. Tenants who are being told they must negotiate tell me they are unable to do so and are not getting a response from their landlord.

Rent supplement is supposed to be paid on a temporary basis. The other day, I spoke to someone who has been in receipt of the payment for six and a half years and is unable to join the rental accommodation scheme because she cannot afford to save the €600 required for a deposit. There is no point in asking her to try to save this sum. I could not do so if I was living on the lone parent's payment. That is the difficulty.

The Government made a commitment to expand the rental accommodation scheme to 30,000 people. I understand 15,000 people avail of the scheme at present and a commitment was given in the most recent budget to increase the figure by a further 1,000. The Government is not even close to meeting its commitment. Rather than spending all her time reviewing rent supplement limits, will the Minister spend some time trying to move people in receipt of the payment to the rental accommodation scheme? The latter scheme is much more effective and allows people to work. The Department spent €500 million last year on rent supplement, which is supposed to be a temporary scheme. The position is not sustainable and unless an effort is made to move people to the alternative scheme, more than €500 million will be spent on rent supplement in the years ahead.

We have been waiting for a long time for progress to be made on an undertaking by the Department to provide landlords' details to the Revenue Commissioners. Has progress been made in this regard? The Minister told us last year that these details would be provided by the end of 2009. Has the Department's commitment been honoured?

I am not satisfied with the Minister's comments on the issue of processing times for unemployment claims. Will she elaborate on what her Department proposes to do to address the severe problems being experienced in certain areas? It is vital that we get people back to work. The Minister's comments on this issue sets alarm bells ringing. I am not sure she fully appreciates the lack of success of some of the Department's programmes on the ground. For example, in response to parliamentary questions I tabled in December last, the Minister informed me that only 129 people were participating in the work placement programme which has 2,000 places. There are hundreds of thousands of people on the live register. If only 129 people are participating in such a large programme, it is clearly not working and needs to be changed. What does the Minister propose to do in this regard?

The Minister indicated she places a particular focus on jobseekers aged under 25 years. She did so by cutting their entitlements. In the summer of 2008, she issued a press release indicating that her Department would tackle the worrying increase in the number of those aged under 25 years who are signing on. The position has deteriorated in the intervening period. While the back to education allowance and other schemes have been tweaked, nothing of real significance has been done to incentivise this group to return to the workforce.

The Minister indicated that people are being referred to FÁS and so forth. What is the position regarding the large number of unemployed people who have higher qualifications than those provided by FÁS? Thousands of those who are signing on could teach FÁS courses. There is, therefore, no point in making FÁS courses available to them or referring people who have been on the live register for three months to FÁS if that organisation does not have the capacity to meet their needs. I ask the Minister to address this point.

On farm spouses, an issue my colleagues will also address, the Minister indicated that an administrative error occurred. If that is the case, I am concerned about the large number of officials in the Department who made the same administrative error. I have letters which indicate that several different people in the Department dealt with the same individuals. Someone in the Department prepared a sheet for a family informing them how much they had to pay. Detailed work was done and considerable time taken to arrive at these erroneous calculations. The woman in question has been in receipt of a pension for several years, having applied for it on foot of a statement by the Minister that thousands of women may be eligible for it. Suddenly, they have been told that they are no longer eligible and that they are going to have to pay back this money.

The Minister keeps referring to section 110(1) of the Social Welfare Act 2005, but section 110(2) of that Act gives her the power. Why can she not use that? Why can she not answer basic questions? I asked a question this week about how many people applied under these sections, yet the information was not made available. Surely the Minister knows how many people applied under a particular section and how many people were eligible. If she does not know, there is something seriously wrong in the system because she is refusing them——

I can address that. The issue in respect of the parliamentary questions was not due to the fact that we do not have the information but because of the current industrial dispute. None of the parliamentary questions was answered, but I will be able to give the Deputy the information.

Does the Minister have the information here today?

I have already called out the numbers.

I am referring to section 110(2).

Since the announcement was made, how many were entitled under section 110(2)? Did the Minister use that power when she could have used it? She can deal with this when I am finished.

There are people who find themselves in a position where they pay extra contributions based on calculations made by the Department, yet now the Minister is telling them they will not be entitled to the pension. They have had the expectation of that, and many of them borrowed to pay the contributions so that they could be eligible for the pension. Now that she has refused them, will they be paid the extra PRSI contributions that they made purely on the basis that they will be eligible for the pension? Will that repayment be made? I think they should be allowed to receive the payment.

The Deputy's ten minutes are well and truly over.

I shall come back later as there are many other issues that need to be raised.

I thank the Minister for her presentation. I would like to concentrate on a few areas of concern, and the first is the issue of welfare to work. In a situation where we have 440,000 people on the live register, this needs to be a priority for the Government. A two pronged approach is required. The question of job creation and job retention is critical and I will not repeat the criticisms of the Government in these areas but they are key in tackling the numbers on the live register. To tackle the growing problem of poverty in Ireland, we need to ensure there are jobs available for people and that existing jobs are retained. Unfortunately, very little attention has been paid to that over the past year by the Government.

There is also a responsibility on the Minister for Social and Family Affairs to ensure that any obstacles to moving people from welfare to work are removed. Unfortunately, there are still many obstacles. There is a requirement on the Minister to ensure that people on the live register are ready for work. This means that where their skills are out of date or where they have been failed by the education system and have no education qualification, they have easy access to education and training opportunities. I am concerned about the manner in which the welfare system operates because there are still obstacles in the way of people who want to move from welfare to work. It is not in anybody's interests, not least the social welfare recipients, that they get stuck on welfare. Ensuring that these obstacles are removed is a critical job that needs to be done in order to avoid long-term unemployment. I am concerned that there are still many obstacles involved. What is the Minister doing in respect of these obstacles?

The various support services for the unemployed are scattered over different Departments and different State agencies. There is much to be said for creating a one-stop shop approach to providing support services for people who are unemployed. The Minister has her own jobs facilitators in her Department, but FÁS also has a massive budget of over €1 billion. Where exactly do they fit in with the Minister's job facilitators? There are local employment services in unemployment black spots, while in some cases there are job centres, as well as the role played by the VEC and higher education generally. It is quite confusing for unemployed people to navigate their way around those different services. What consideration, if any, has the Minister given to streamlining those services and ensuring that unemployed people can deal with one agency when discovering their options?

We should not have a distinction between the Department of Social and Family Affairs and another Department that is responsible for enterprise and employment. In the UK, there is a Department for Work and Pensions that combines the two, because it is all about meeting the needs of people of working age. There should not be a distinction between the Departments, and their officials should be working much more closely together. Has the Minister given any consideration to amalgamating various services within the two Departments and within other State agencies in order to streamline the available supports?

Deputy Enright has pointed out that there has been a welcome tweaking of the back to education allowance over the past year, but there is still much that could be done to streamline the move from welfare dependency into education and opening up options for employment. The requirement to be unemployed for 12 months does not make any sense. In certain exceptional circumstances, the requirement is nine months, but it is often 12 months. The Minister stated that there is special provision for people who have been made redundant. There is a significant number of people who lose their jobs and who are not entitled to statutory redundancy. These are people who slip through the net. They are often in low-paid, insecure employment. If such people lose their jobs, the Minister is telling them they have to wait 12 months before they get on to an education course. If we are trying to avoid long-term unemployment, this does not make any sense whatsoever. The aim should be to get people into a training or education programme, or a work placement or job as quickly as possible. However, the message being sent to these people is that they cannot access a training or education place for 12 months.

What consideration has the Minister given towards reducing that period? There was a concern in the past that the Government did not want people giving up jobs to go into supported education, but that is no longer the issue. The rules that applied to those cases applied in circumstances where we had full employment. The rules have to change to meet the new realities of 440,000 people on the live register. Is the Minister prepared to change that rule from 12 months to a much more reasonable three month period? That would be fair.

People who are in receipt of lone-parent payments also get stuck in welfare. This is an issue on which we will perhaps invite the Minister back to the committee in the next couple of months, if she is prepared to return. She knows we are doing much work on lone parents.

Her comments in her address today were extremely disappointing. It seems she is not prepared to move on some of the key issues that were identified by the late Séamus Brennan in regard to obstacles to lone parents participating in work and moving off welfare. I am very disappointed that she has ruled out any change to the cohabitation rule. Figures produced for us by Colm Rapple show there are massive financial disincentives to couples living together or getting married. That is bad policy. We should not be doing this to people who have children and we should be at least making it neutral for them to live together or to get married. I am very disappointed that the Minister has indicated she does not intend to take action in this regard.

The other issue relates to people moving into employment or training when children reach a certain age. I would like the Minister to give us her view at this stage because it is hard to know what her thinking is on what that age should be. There has been a lot of talk about younger ages, and people supporting lone parents groups would certainly say we should be considering an age around 12 or 13 years, when a child goes into secondary school. I would like to have the Minister's opinion. We have been talking about this issue for years. Let us have some action. Lone parents by and large do not want to be stuck on welfare. They want to become independent, and the Minister for Social and Family Affairs should facilitate that.

The other area concerns rent supplement which, again, is a huge poverty trap. People who are on rent supplement lose that supplement if they work. If we are trying to get people to move from welfare to work, this makes no sense whatsoever. The promise made was that people would be able to move from rent supplement onto the rental accommodation scheme, RAS, which makes a great deal of sense. It makes sense from the State's point of view because it means that, ultimately, people will be less dependent on welfare. In addition, it very much makes sense from the client's point of view because it means they can move off welfare and take up any job opportunities that arise.

I have been asking the Minister for the past six months why it is that more people are not moving from rent supplement to RAS. There seems to be some row between the Minister and the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. I have asked the Minister with responsibility for housing about this issue. He is looking for a budget. The Minister for Social and Family Affairs has the budget so is it not possible for her to sit down with the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and agree to transfer part of the rent supplement budget to the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government so people can move onto RAS?

There are currently 33,000 people who qualify for RAS but are prevented from accessing it because the Minister, Deputy Hanafin, and the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government will not sort this out. It makes eminent sense to move large numbers of people from rent supplement to RAS but, for some reason, it is not happening. As it seems to be just an administrative blockage, I ask the Minister, Deputy Hanafin, to sit down with the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to sort it out. It makes a huge difference to people's lives.

The other issue in terms of the impact on people who are trying to hold onto employment is the whole question of mortgage interest supplement. We were promised a review on this issue, which was to be completed last April. Again, that scheme was in operation in very different times and the rules were set in those different times. Why have we not got the results of that review? What is delaying it? It is ten months overdue.

The point in this regard is that there is an arbitrary rule for people who apply for mortgage interest supplement. Take the example of a couple where the man loses his job and the woman has a job but their income is hugely reduced and they cannot afford to make the mortgage repayments. When they go to the community welfare officer looking for assistance, they are told that if one member of the couple is working more than 30 hours, they are automatically disqualified, irrespective of their financial circumstances or the difficulties they are having.

The Deputy is out of time.

Can the Minister tell us when she will change this? Why is it the case? Several people have contacted me about this problem. The only conclusion and the only advice one can give a couple in that situation is that the woman, where it is the woman who continues to work, is better off giving up her job, because they will get help with the mortgage if she does so. Again, it is a rule that was meant for a different time that makes no sense in this day and age. When does the Minister intend to deal with it?

I want to make one final point in regard to this area of welfare to work. Take-up is very low for the work placement programme that came into force last year, as was said. I have two concerns in this regard. The scheme was promoted by IBEC. First, what guarantees are there that job displacement is not taking place? I came across an example where a company was about to employ two people but this scheme came into existence and it took people off the dole, at no cost to the company. What safeguards is the Minister putting in place to ensure there is not job displacement?

Second, while it is great somebody who was on dole and is perhaps highly qualified gets an opportunity to work, get experience and do something worthwhile with their time, does the Minister not accept there is an obvious requirement that the person would get some kind of allowance for the cost of attending work, for example, bus fares, train fares or lunch allowance? Does she accept this is part of the reason there is such a poor takeup? A person who is trying to survive on the dole does not have the financial capacity to meet the expenses involved in going to a job. In many cases, they are doing a real, 35-hour a week job but getting absolutely no pay. There is a strong case for having some kind of an allowance to enable them to participate in employment.

As promised, I will ask the Minister to respond first and I will then allow questions from members.

There would be merit in taking the views of the other committee members at this stage. The Minister could then respond in full to all members. Otherwise, we will be going over the same issues again.

The other members have agreed to this timetable.

That was not put to the committee at the beginning of the meeting.

Is it agreed the committee will take all the questions now? Agreed. I will apply the two-minute rule strictly. I call Deputy Crawford.

I welcome the Minister. I wish to raise several issues, including the situation of the self-employed and those on farm assist. Just the other day, I encountered the case of a young man who has had no income for 11 weeks from his furniture business. He showed me his accounts for 2008, when he made just €3,000 clear profit, yet the inspector gave him just €9 in jobseeker's allowance. It is impossible to believe there is no recognition of the statement the Minister made to me in the Dáil, namely, that current income has to be taken into account.

Another man, who worked in the building business, has a mortgage far in excess of the value of the property yet he cannot get a cent in social welfare. I have all his legal documents which show that his bank is taking him to court. There have been suicides in that area, and we need to be much more sensitive and caring. I could also give examples from the world of farming. It is extraordinary that, while some are doing so, most inspectors on the ground are not passing on this information. These problems are happening across my constituency of Cavan-Monaghan.

I support the remarks of other members with regard to the back to work and back to education issues. We must be more liberal in the way in which those schemes are applied. I am aware of one young man who, having lost his job, decided to go back to college. He took out a loan in order to do so rather than having to wait 12 months to qualify for the back to work allowance. More must be done to assist people in returning to education.

In regard to the partnership pension, much work was done by Members, farming organisations and others to get agreement on that, and the agreement was made in good faith. The Department's inspectorate entered into discussions with applicants and a significant number of inspectors clearly agreed they were eligible, based on the numbers the Minister has given us today. However, the Minister is saying that it was not the farmer or the farmer's wife but the inspectors who did not understand what they were doing. Partners have been paid and the Department is now seeking the return of those moneys. That is an absolutely extraordinary situation. I am passionately of the view that what the Minister is doing is not correct in law and is vulnerable to legal challenge. Given the numbers involved, will the Minister reconsider and do the just and honest thing? One inspector told a friend of mine that his wife was not eligible for a pension——

The Deputy has exceeded the time allocated to him.

I will conclude. He was just not interested in advising that family. I am extremely concerned by this and I urge the Minister to review it.

I have a query regarding the rental accommodation scheme and the need to move more people onto it. We learned last week that there are 300,000 empty homes in the State. At the same time, there is an obvious problem in terms of access to the rental accommodation scheme. The Minister says she will work closely with the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. What initiatives does she propose to take and how advanced are her negotiations with that Department? Has she set any target for the numbers to be moved to the scheme?

For young people under 25 years of age the only incentive in the budget was an incentive to leave the country. The mid-west task force has identified more than 7,000 under-25s in that region who are on the dole, more than 2,000 of whom are in County Clare. There are no supports to help those young people to move from welfare to work. More training places must be provided and the back to work allowance must be amended so that more people are eligible. It is a reasonable proposals that jobseekers be eligible to participate after three months.

It should be recognised that the Minister is in a more difficult position than she or any of her predecessors has experienced for more than 15 years. The pressures in her Department have been nothing in recent times compared to the astronomical difficulties it is now facing. It is only fair that this committee should recognise that. It is also important to recognise that the level of welfare payments in this State is higher than those in the majority of our European Union neighbours, including the United Kingdom. Even in the wake of recent tight budgets, our welfare payments remain very high. That speaks volumes for the Minister and the regard in which she holds welfare recipients.

We all like to see constructive engagement by committees. While various relevant points have been made today, I note that nobody suggested how savings could be made in order to protect welfare rates. It is easy to be critical, but this committee could have more impact and be more helpful to the Minister if we had suggestions that sought to be helpful rather than merely critical.

In her opening address the Minister reminded us that this is the European year for combating poverty and social exclusion and how determined the Government is to assist a broad range of people. However, what stands out from the budget was the decision to take money from the blind and disabled. It is a shame that the Minister and her departmental staff felt the need to exclude them. That contradicts her opening comments on her commitment to tackling poverty and social exclusion.

There continues to be significant problem in terms of the delays experienced by people in receiving unemployment benefit. I receive telephone calls on a daily basis from people who have been waiting weeks or months. Is there an update on the under 25s who have applied to participate in the education and learning scheme she is launching?

Regarding the long-term income support programmes for lone parents, it is difficult to get a handle on the Government's position when the Minister says that welfare payments will be reduced, that consideration will be given to taking people's welfare benefits from them and that such persons should return to education or get a job. The reality is that even people with extensive qualifications are finding it difficult to secure employment in the current market. Many lone parents have told me they are willing to return to work but cannot find a job. The Government cannot give with one hand and take with the other. These people cannot be expected to suffer in the long term in the absence of job opportunities.

The back to education allowance is of increasing relevance given the growing numbers of unemployed. However, the requirement whereby the course an applicant is pursuing must be deemed to be progressive in terms of his or her existing educational qualifications is giving rise to many refusals by the Department. Account must be taken of the trauma people are experiencing as they lose their jobs, in some instances having been seduced by the construction industry into leaving school with no or few qualifications and having now to determine in their mid-20s and beyond that they must return to education. That requires a major quantum leap in terms of lifestyle and so on. If such persons apply to participate in training that is not deemed to be progressive, their application for back to education allowance is rejected. Some of the qualifications these people already hold may offer no employment prospects.

If such people pursue a course wherein it is deemed that some prospect exists of a job opportunity at its conclusion, it is incumbent on the Minister to unravel the red tape. I refer to courses that offer the prospect of jobs at a time when two out of three young men under 25 are unemployed and when more than 430,000 people are signing on. The Minister must stress the need to bend over backwards to enable such people to get on with their lives and to have some prospect of being involved in the active economy, rather than prohibiting people from participation, as the scheme now does, thereby forcing them to remain on jobseeker's allowance and frustrating their efforts to regain their independence from the State. The Minister has been in this job for long enough during the economic downturn to have recognised the significance of this issue. I am disappointed that to date, the Minister has not addressed this issue in a comprehensive fashion. Only last week, I encountered a case involving someone who is an honours graduate in biochemistry. The Minister is aware there is a pharmaceutical hub in Cork and the industry collectively has come together to put in place a course at the Cork Institute of Technology that is designed specifically to facilitate the transition of graduates from third level into the workplace. I refer to a good manufacturing practice course for chemistry graduates. However, because the course is not considered to be educational progression, those involved are being refused back to education allowances. The Minister should address this issue, which has a wider application than that specific course.

While wearing my agricultural hat, I wish to take up the issue of——

Deputy, I am sorry but we must move on.

I will be brief. This also is an issue close to people's hearts in south County Kerry because some of the Chairman's constituents have crossed the border to approach me in this regard. To put it bluntly, farmers' wives are appalled that the Minister for Social and Family Affairs would be the person to take away their entitlement to a contributory pension. I cannot put it more bluntly than that. Interestingly, the Minister noted of the information leaflet published in June 2008 that while "it did not involve a change in existing policy", it clarified it. I understand that in response to Deputy Enright's previous contributions, the Minister stated that section 110(2) of the Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005 was repealed in the Social Welfare and Pensions Act 2009. However, given the bells and whistles that blew for people in 2008, how many people who were approved for a pension under the provisions of section 110(2), whereby the Minister used her discretion as allowed therein, have since been written to by the Minister, who now is withdrawing that discretionary approval and thereby is seeking to withdraw the pension? The Minister has stated there was no change in the law in 2008 when she announced that such people would qualify. This clearly meant to me that such people were qualified, using the Minister's discretion as specified in section 110(2) of the Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005. It is the meanest trick of all for the Minister to state retrospectively her intention to withdraw that discretion.

I am sorry but the Deputy's time has expired. I call Deputy O'Connor.

I will conclude on this point. Farm women are appalled at what the Minister, as a woman and as Minister for Social and Family Affairs, has done to them. Many more people who will qualify will look to the Minister to resolve this issue. It will not go away as this is the meanest cut of all.

In fairness, I have given the Deputy more time than anyone else and it is very unfair.

I do not wish to get into a conflict with my colleague, Deputy Creed. First, I apologise to my colleagues and to the Minister for my lateness this morning. Unfortunately, I was obliged to attend the funeral of a friend. However, I was anxious to attend this meeting to tell the Minister that all members, regardless of the benches on which they sit, are concerned about the current situation. The unemployment figures published this morning should again focus members' minds on the challenges we face. I often have stated that I try to bring my personal experiences to my politics and, having had the experience of suffering redundancy thrice during my life, I know what it is like.

All members, regardless of their party affiliations, try to help those who are in need. Recently, they have encountered people visiting their clinics, telephoning their offices or stopping them in the street who never have faced such challenges previously. Whereas they had been in good, comfortable jobs, they now find themselves in a completely different position. I always have taken the view that within the limits of its resources, the Department of Social and Family Affairs always should be responsive. Members must continue to stress, through the Minister, the point that the Department must continue to take a consumer-friendly attitude to anyone who calls in. The position in the Tallaght social welfare office is no different from anywhere else, in that people are under pressure.

I hope the Minister has noticed that the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Social and Family Affairs recently has involved itself in a number of initiatives. Members today have to hand correspondence the Minister sent to the Chairman on foot of what I regarded as a highly important meeting at which the EBS's senior management appeared before the joint committee to make proposals on how to deal with the challenges. I emphasise the point to the Minister that while people are entitled to their politics and to make points thereon, all members of the joint committee share concerns regarding the Minister's remit. They have tried to bring forward a number of reports and I understand today will approve a report prepared by my colleagues, Deputies Enright and Thomas Byrne, on the high levels of indebtedness in Irish society. Members are trying to do what they can and certainly are doing their utmost to put on the Minister's table the issues they encounter. Members made the point at budget time that the Minister was under a lot of pressure and while there were disappointments therein for all members, it is important to afford as much attention as possible to those who are in need.

Another point, which is not directly under the Minister's remit, pertains to the question of job creation nationwide. I am a Dublin-based Deputy and have noted that disagreements often arise between Deputies from Dublin and those from elsewhere in the country as to where priorities should lie. However, I am not afraid to talk about Dublin and about my constituency of Dublin South-West in particular. It is important that job creation should continue to be the Government's priority. In addition, the Minister's comments regarding timely access to income supports, the other measures pertaining to getting people back to work and to tackling fraud are matters about which I hope all members will provide strong support to her.

I also support the comments that have been made regarding the back to education allowance issue about which I also am receiving many calls. The Department and the Minister should examine this issue in a manner that ensures flexibility because people's positions regarding this allowance differs from that which obtained previously. It will be necessary to find and implement innovative ways to help people in a manner that has not been done previously. I wish the Minister well, assure her of members' support and thank her for her attendance.

I will not delay the Minister for too long because most issues have been raised. On the issue of farm wives, the Minister has indicated that some flexibility will be forthcoming in respect of people who already have been awarded pensions. The Minister should consider the possibility of putting this on a more formalised basis, rather than leaving it to individual deciding or recovery officers to make decisions. The back to education allowance certainly is an issue that has been coming up in my constituency and can at times be difficult to resolve for constituents. At other times however, resolution is possible and it appears as there is much discretion in this regard. Perhaps more formal structures are required as I understand it to be a non-statutory scheme and many people certainly are being excluded from it.

The Minister's priority must be to reduce the social welfare budget by whatever means she can and the most important way to so do is to get people back into work. More than €3 billion in tax revenues were received this month, of which approximately €2 billion will be spent on social welfare. Clearly, measures must be taken in respect of dealing with unemployment but in addition, the Minister's efforts regarding fraud and its detection also are highly important in this regard. One should consider how tight is the position between tax receipts and the amount being spent on social welfare alone, quite apart from the other expenditures on Government services.

Deputy O'Connor mentioned the various reports undertaken by the committee. The report on fraud has been with the Minister, who probably does not mind that it is a challenging one, but I would like her to examine it. Deputy Enright and I have produced a report that I hope will be approved today. The Minister has taken an interest in this area. I attended a meeting between her and a number of interested organisations. She is committed to addressing the issues of mortgages and debt in general. As the Minister stated, the committee is considering the matter of lone parents. We are grateful that she is taking an interest in what we are doing.

I thank the committee for the significant number of issues raised. Genuine comments and suggestions are always useful. However, when reports are issued by a committee, there is never any interaction with the relevant Minister. Perhaps when it issues reports, we could hold a discussion on them. Doing so would help both sides, particularly given this committee's valuable work on a couple of reports.

I will address the question of processing times briefly, as only Deputy Catherine Byrne raised it. The improvements in processing times have been quite——

I raised it also.

Yes. The improvements have been exceptional. Deputy Catherine Byrne's area is covered by the Ballyfermot and Tallaght offices. In Ballyfermot, jobseeker's benefit takes less than one week to process and processing the jobseeker's allowance takes 3.9 weeks. In Tallaght, processing jobseeker's benefit takes 1.4 weeks while jobseeker's allowance takes 5.7 weeks. This shows that the larger offices are very efficient. Any difficulties are experienced in small offices, such as the one is Castlepollard, and some branch offices. We are working to resolve issues in that respect, but there have still been considerable improvements in processing.

Deputy Crawford raised issues about the processing of self-employed people. During parliamentary questions, I read out for the Deputy two circulars issued to each office to ensure that they are taking into account the fact that past income is not necessarily an indication of future income. This has been clearly set out. To ensure consistency among inspectors, they recently met and were fully briefed. There should not be a difficulty in one area that is not found in any other. The Deputy may know of particular issues, but this instruction is in writing and inspectors have been briefed through the circulars to ensure consistency.

I am sorry to interrupt the Minister, but it is an extremely serious matter.

I will not take the questions in any particular order, as there were many of them. I have met various groups that represent lone parents well, as they reflect the different interests of people who are working, those who are not working and those who are totally dependent on the lone-parent payment. We are completely out of line with the international comparisons. One could point to the considerable child care provisions in Finland, Norway and Sweden as being the reason the relevant ages are three or four years, but the UK is this year reducing the relevant age to seven years of age. In Canada, the age is six years. In New Zealand and Australia, it is eight years.

The original document that was published referred to children aged seven years. Later discussion was on eight years, but that age is too young in the Irish context. For example, when a child attends second level school, there are greater opportunities for him or her to spend longer days in school and to avail of after-school activities. Not only would it be a more appropriate age, but the young mother would benefit through not needing to enter into a dependency for many years. It is not as if the lone-parent payment will be cut off. Instead, an employment-seeking requirement will be placed on it. This would allow lone parents to cohabit or marry, as they would be means tested on the family household.

Any changes would support long-term policies as they relate to mothers and, in particular, children. The latter is the perspective from which we are coming. As we know and have discussed at this committee, the poverty outcomes for children of lone parents are four times worse than for children in any other type of family. We must consider what is in the best interests of the child. I am considering ceasing the payment when the child reaches 13 years of age, at which point the lone parent could seek to qualify for other social welfare payments. I would not want to introduce these changes in a hurry. It is important that we allow a lead-in time to ensure that the lone parent has an opportunity to get education and training. This would entail phasing it in over a number of years.

Approximately 18 months ago, I requested from the Minister's Department a flow analysis of people going on and off the lone-parent payment. The analysis was not available because the information was not collated within the Department. When various groups attended our meeting of two weeks ago, this arose as a significant issue. Addressing something is difficult if we do not know the statistics. The Minister must address it, but she will be working in the dark if there are no statistics. Can the Minister arrange for us to receive the figures showing who is going onto the payment, leaving it and then returning to it? It would give us a more accurate picture of the situation. That the Department does not seem to collate the information in this manner is causing difficulty for everyone working in the area who wants to move in the right direction. Getting the information would not be easy, as there would be a bit of work involved.

If somebody who has never claimed a lone-parent allowance but has been in full-time employment loses his or her job, he or she would be advised to go on the lone-parent allowance rather than the jobseeker's allowance because he or she could earn more — €145 per week or so — and still get a full social welfare benefit. We have age profiles and information on the age of the youngest children in question.

We need to know why lone parents leave and then return, but this information does not exist. Having it would make a difference.

The movement could be due to cohabiting or taking up employment that is over the allowable limit. There are all sorts of reasons. As a society, we tend to refer to the single lone mother when discussing the lone-parent category, but it is wide and also includes widows, widowers and separated people. I have yet to meet a widower or widow with a child who will tell me that he or she is a lone parent. Widows and widowers do not categorise themselves as such, but it is how they are viewed for the purposes of the payment. The committee is doing further work in this respect, so I would be happy to share my thoughts, but this is my current view of the matter and the question of children's ages. I would be interested in learning whether the Deputy believes the age I mentioned to be more acceptable. As she stated, the groups believe it to be a better age.

The back to work and back to education allowances and supporting people in getting off welfare comprise a priority for the Government and me. For this reason, we introduced changes last year in the back to education allowance, but I will introduce further changes with particular regard for the issues raised by the committee concerning length of time, graduate status, suitability and progression. We cannot entirely remove the time limit requirement, particularly in respect of third level. It is a valuable payment, in that one can start one's degree on almost a couple of hundred euro per week and carry it through for three or four years. We do not want young school leavers opting out for one year and then returning to the system on this payment. However, there is scope. At second level, which includes post-leaving certificate courses, the waiting time is three months. This level presents many opportunities for people. I am examining new ways in which to be more flexible with the scheme. If the committee believes anything further should be included, members should let me know.

Numbers have increased. Last year, they were 79% higher than the year before. If we could encourage more people into the allowance, then that is better. FÁS has doubled its number of places. As such, additional training and education places are available.

Many of the FÁS places are only one-week and two-week courses. This presents a significant problem and massages the figures to some extent. It might be better than nothing but it does not necessarily lead to anything else. I welcome the fact the Department has taken on board recommendations on changes. When will the changes be announced?

I aim to do so at the time of the Social Welfare Bill or before it because we want to get this in place before the next academic year. One of the difficulties we discussed with the Department of Education and Science is that so many courses start in September or October. That is a difficulty. Some of the institutes of technology have been quite flexible and are offering preparation courses in February and March. With close association between this Department and the Department of Education and Science, we will see what is available at the mid-term rather than in September and October.

I appreciate that FÁS places do not come under the Minister's portfolio but people applying for them are in receipt of social welfare benefits. Responding that places are available is not enough; the question is the suitability of places. There were 2,000 places on the work placement scheme and 129 people took them up. It is not practical. Another issue is the impracticality of FÁS courses. A range of courses, including hairdressing and beauty therapy, begin at 8.30 a.m. That is utterly impractical for the people these courses are trying to attract. These people cannot start at 8.30 a.m. because they have no child care until the children start school. Simple changes could be made to make these programmes work much better. This needs to be examined. I raise this issue even though the Minister for Social and Family Affairs is not responsible for it.

The work placement programme and FÁS are the responsibility of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. I appreciate what Deputy Shortall is saying about co-ordination but all Ministers in those Departments are members of two significant Cabinet sub-committees, on social inclusion and economic renewal, where work placements, education places and FÁS places are co-ordinated.

We have been in discussion with FÁS about the issue raised by Deputy Enright. FÁS has started to change the 8.30 a.m. start, particularly for lone parents and particularly in respect of the courses to which she refers. They will begin after the school starting time so that the courses meet the needs of people. Some of the FÁS centres I am aware of have started to adapt courses so that they are relevant. This applies particularly to renewable energy, green energy and retrofitting. The centre at Loughlinstown has done so, as have some of the others. Relevance is essential.

The criteria for the work placement programme were changed at the beginning of December. A shorter period on the live register and a longer time on work placements is now required. Deputy Shortall asked if we could provide an allowance. Social welfare payments can be increased by taking a place on the work placement programme. For someone who receives €150 per week and is 23 or 24 years of age, the payment increases to €196 per week on the work placement programme. There is acknowledgement there.

I refer to people outside that age group. For example, it is quite unreasonable to expect people in their late 20s to participate in work without some allowance.

The reality is that the money is not there and the person is supposed to be seeking work in any case. Seeking work can be done on the Internet or by telephone. The person might not be out all the time but the trick is to ensure we have availability in most areas so the person does not have to travel too far. We have asked FÁS to review the low take-up. A large number of employers are offering.

It is very attractive for employers but not for those who are unemployed.

It can be attractive for the unemployed graduate with no work experience. At least it provides the benefit of being in the workplace and FÁS is responsible for ensuring there is no job displacement. This is one of the criteria.

How can FÁS do that?

FÁS is responsible for checking with employers who have registered. Employers must register with FÁS. The IBEC GradLink programme also offers a certificate of management at the end of the course. There is added value for the graduate of that course. We are happy to ensure the person retains social welfare payments while on that course. I am working with FÁS to examine the barriers to this scheme. We understood the barriers were the issues addressed on 1 December, which have now been dealt with. It will be interesting to see if there is further take-up of the programme.

Payments of mortgage interest supplement amount to €60 million this year. The review will be completed by Easter and examines the 30-hour rule and other elements. It is reasonable that a community welfare officer examines whether the person was in a position to pay the mortgage at the time it was taken out. I have met people on reasonably low incomes with €500,000 mortgages. The problem is they will never be able to pay it. For how long must the State keep paying interest? Banks are now negotiating with people who have run into difficulty and people are arranging to pay only interest in some cases. In some cases the first port of call is the community welfare officer whereas it should be an attempt to renegotiate. Part of the financial requirements on banks is that they must negotiate with people. We have a protocol with MABS and as long as people are making a real effort to repay, no action will be taken against them.

The Minister mentioned the review due in Easter. The Minister said last year that the review would be completed by Easter of last year.

My clear understanding, as of last night, is that it will be completed by Easter.

The Minister said it would be ready by Easter of last year. This is a major problem affecting thousands of families. It is not good enough to have a 12-month delay in producing a review.

There is a major problem with those who have mortgage difficulties. One of the more positive elements is the fact that €60 million is being paid through the mortgage interest supplement scheme, supporting people in their family homes. Wider Government initiatives will solve the wider problem and that is why the Cabinet sub-committee chaired by the Department of Finance is considering the issue. Personal debt relief is being considered by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. We are involved in that and in the negotiations on it.

There is no sense of urgency about it. That the review was supposed to be completed by last Easter and is now 12 months late indicates a certain dragging of heels within the Department.

All the time, people are receiving support with their mortgages.

Many people are not. Many people are being refused and find themselves in dire circumstances because the scheme does not meet the requirements of the modern day.

The scheme is also reasonably generous in so far as it pays out €60 million.

There are many anomalies and these must be dealt with.

I accept that; that is why the review is being done. The only matter people raise as an anomaly is the 30-hour rule.

There are several anomalies. The Minister says people should renegotiate with the banks first. The experience of my constituents is that the banks advise them to apply for mortgage interest supplement and they can negotiate afterwards. People need to know that they can negotiate with the bank first and that the mortgage interest supplement can be a valuable part of that. It is not necessarily the case of one without the other.

There are several difficulties with this scheme. Someone on a low income may not have had the capacity to repay a €500,000 mortgage. However, several people have come to me who had the capacity to repay the loan when it was granted. They are being refused payment by the community welfare officer on the basis that the loan was too expensive because the mortgage is being considered with the benefit of hindsight. That is particularly unfair when we are in a climate where the Government is saying it will do something about this in a few months' time. In the meantime people are being refused mortgage interest supplement while they wait to see what the Government will do. The Minister could advise community welfare officers to pay out until we see the larger scheme.

I am very sorry to come in at this point.

Does the Minister collate the number of refusals?

I allowed all the time in the world to ask questions. At this point, the Minister is in the process of answering the questions and she is being interrupted every few minutes. If members continue down that road I will call the meeting to a halt.

The mortgage interest supplement will of course continue to be paid and it is a valuable resource for people. Despite the fact that many people have difficulties, the number of family homes that have been moved on by the courts is very limited. Let us not start scaremongering or panicking people. Very few family homes have been moved on by the courts.

With all due respect, there is a lagtime. We know 6,500 families are 12 months or more in arrears. The Minister should not try to understate the problem.

If Deputy Shortall has a question she should ask it through the Chair.

I am well aware of the difficulties people have but it is important that there should not be scaremongering. We have seen through the protocol that we negotiated with MABS that the banks will not move on people who are making a genuine effort to repay and where arrangements have been made through MABS and others. We will continue to be there for them. It is unfortunate we do not have a collation from the community welfare officers because, as the Deputy knows, the community welfare officers are not yet part of the Department. The sooner the industrial relations issues are resolved and the LRC meets, the better co-ordination we can get on the mortgage interest supplement.

With regard to rent supplement, the number of people who have moved on to RAS is between 26,000 and 28,000.

There are 33,000 eligible.

It is not as if we will suddenly save all of this money; the money is moved from one Department to another. The same amount of money will still be spent.

It would enable those people to take up work.

The Minister of State with responsibility for housing is the person responsible.

That is where the saving is. Those people are enabled to go out and take up work. That is the issue and there is a saving to the State if this is done.

There is a comeback to the State but the money that goes out in the first instance just moves from one Department to another. Every year, the Department of Social and Family Affairs transfers money to the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, which has responsibility for housing. I have discussed the RAS scheme and the importance of facilitating people to move off rent supplement with the Minister of State, Deputy Finneran, on a number of occasions. The target for this year is to move 10,000 people onto the RAS.

I have to say very significant savings can be made through this administrative change. It would allow people to come off welfare, take up work and continue to have housing support. If the State negotiates rents though local authorities it will get far better value. It is a win-win situation.

This is my third time telling Deputy Shortall to ask questions through the Chair.

If a person on rent supplement is deemed to qualify for the RAS he or she can work. People can receive rent supplement and work. Is the Deputy aware of this?

I am, but they want to transfer to a better quality of accommodation also. They would be more inclined to go out to work and the State will make savings because it would deal with large numbers of landlords and it would not be left to individual tenants, some of whom are very vulnerable, to negotiate with landlords they cannot even locate.

To put this in perspective, the maximum amount people pay in most cases is €24 per week. In some counties the rent supplement is more generous than any type of social housing.

That is not the point.

People who have been on rent supplement for some time and who qualify for RAS can take up full-time employment. I accept that better deals could be got through negotiating en bloc with landlords, which is one of the benefits——

Why is the Minister not doing so?

That is what happens under the RAS scheme. We do not deal directly with the landlord for rent supplement, we deal directly with the client.

Deputy Enright asked whether the information——

To achieve those savings, why does the Minister not move more people on to it?

I indicated to the Deputy that this year the target is 10,000 and it is the Department with responsibility for housing——

Why is the Minister so conservative about a change that will result in benefits for everybody?

Perhaps the Deputy would like to take it up with the Minister of State with responsibility for housing, because it is that Department's responsibility——

I already have but he did not seem to know much about it.

——to move people from——

As the person responsible for a budget of €500 million perhaps the Minister will take steps to ensure we get better value for it.

A charge has been made against the Minister of State with responsibility for housing that is inappropriate and should be withdrawn.

Deputy Byrne should not be so sensitive.

The Minister without interruption, please.

Our responsibility is with the client on the rent supplement and it is an area——

The Minister is also responsible for the spending of a huge amount of public money.

Naturally, each year——

The Minister should not wash her hands of that.

——we transfer money to the Department with responsibility for housing.

I apologise; the target for this year is 8,000 and not 10,000. The Department for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government believes that is realistic and obtainable.

It is only a drop in the ocean.

Yes, and if the Minister of State with responsibility for housing is able to accommodate more people we will be quite happy to take them off the rent supplement also.

Questions were asked about providing PPS numbers to Revenue. That has started and the information for 2009 has already been sent. What is reported to Revenue is the PPS numbers of landlords when we know them or the fact that we did not get a PPS number for a landlord so it can be followed up.

Does the Department not ask for the PPS number in order for a tenant to get rent supplement?

It is only the name and address that are sought.

That should be changed. That is the best point to get the information.

That was supposed to be changed last year.

Community welfare officers are required to look for it.

If they are not giving it they are probably not paying tax.

All of the information is now given to Revenue whether we have the PPS number or not. Obviously, it is much easier to have the PPS number.

How can it be provided if the Department does not have it?

We have the name and address of the landlord.

Why is the Department not insisting on having the PPS number before rent supplement is given? The Minister is facilitating tax evasion unless she takes action on this.

Please let the Minister continue.

We give all of the relevant information we have to Revenue.

Why does the Minister not insist on getting the landlord's PPS number?

Please let the Minister continue.

The community welfare officer asks for the PPS number of the landlord.

What if he or she does not get it?

The relationship is with the client so if they find somebody needs——-

So the Minister washes her hands of any responsibility for this. The Minister should protect public money and ensure people pay tax.

No; I told the Deputy that community welfare officers take the details of the landlord and forward them to Revenue. All of the details for 2009 have already been forwarded to Revenue.

Would it not be more efficient to do it at that point?

To ensure they get it? Yes.

That change should be made.

In the vast majority of cases they get it.

The only outstanding issue is the matter with regard to farm spouses and on this I reiterate that there is no change of policy or budget. Nobody was given anything on a discretionary basis. What happened was an awful and unfortunate mistake which I know has caused much distress for some people. People correctly established partnerships, which was one element that had to be established, and the page that Deputy Enright has containing all of the details has a section on establishing whether a partnership existed. The mistake was not made in that section; it was made in granting a pension overlooking the fact that payment of PRSI contributions had not been made before the applicant was aged 66.

Hundreds of people will still qualify for this pension. As I indicated at the outset, 1,000 people have applied, 759 have been decided upon and 508 qualify for the partnership. Of those, 268 applied for the pension. One could well presume that many of the others are under the age of 66 and have yet to apply for the pension. If they apply for the pension and have paid up contributions for the year before they reach 66 then they qualify for the pension. The difficulty is that the pension was given to people without checking that they had already retired.

That does not add up. Nobody will believe that.

It does add up. I know it is a particularly difficult matter. Two different requirements had to be met. A total of 97 people were disallowed, of whom 12 were reinstated on appeal and receipt of further information. A number of the remaining 85 continue to appeal their cases. Sensitivity will be applied in acknowledging that people may have used the lump sum they received for other purposes. Each case has to be decided on its respective merits but there is no discretion in terms of continuing to grant people pensions for which they do not qualify. I regret the distress this genuine administrative mistake has caused.

Why did the Minister repeal section 110(2) and was that section used at any stage as a means of granting recognition to partnerships? She pointed out that the document I cited earlier concerns the reckoned income for establishing a partnership. These women were not establishing partnerships for their sense of self worth. They are well aware of the work they invested over their lifetimes. They took this action on foot of the statement she made through the IFA, which gave them the impression they would be able to receive pensions.

People have proven the existence of partnerships and have paid the stamps due. Hundreds and possibly thousands of people will continue to qualify for pensions when they reach the age of 66.

They were advised by the Department to establish a partnership and reconcile their PRSI records. The Minister has now withdrawn their PRSI money while telling them they are not entitled to pensions. It is outrageous. In regard to the delay between reconciling PRSI records and establishing partnerships, I do not accept that nobody in the Department pointed out the mistake.

I will not allow the Deputy to continue.

The Minister approved them under section 110(2) and amended the provision in December 2009.

I have been more than reasonable with him. He is not a member of this committee. I allowed him to speak for longer than any other contributor and gave him every break in the world, yet he will not allow the Minister to continue.

The Deputy was not present when I made my previous comments on the issue. The applicants who are currently in the process of establishing partnerships and who will not qualify for the pension on the basis that they are over 66 and cannot pay one year's contribution prior to reaching retirement age are being advised of that fact.

They are establishing legal partnerships but their PRSI liabilities are being waived.

They are being asked whether they want to continue the process and advised they will not qualify for a pension.

Therefore, the Department is breaking the law. It is a ridiculous approach.

I plead with the Deputies to allow the Minister to continue.

Two conditions had to be met; namely, to have established a partnership and to have paid stamps before turning 66. Certain people met the first condition having already reached the age of 66. The second condition was overlooked in error. I admit it was a bad mistake for the approximately 85 people affected.

What about section 110(2)?

It has nothing to do with that.

They were approved under that section.

A Minister should not have discretion regarding who receives a pension.

On a point of order, the June 2008 announcement made it clear the new arrangements did not involve a change in existing policy or administration. The only way they could qualify was under section 110(2) because section 110(1) provided that if they had not paid stamps or established a partnership before turning 65, they could not qualify. The legal provision which allowed them to qualify was section 110(2), which was the basis of the June 2008 announcement. By amending that section in the Social Welfare Act 2009, the Minister is retrospectively withdrawing discretionary approval. This is not acceptable. I predict that the Department will lose when the cases come before the Ombudsman.

The Minister should be allowed to continue because we will enter into private session immediately following this discussion.

Deputy Creed is 100% wrong. Thousands of farmers' wives will qualify for this pension because they have not yet reached the age of 66.

They are self-employed.

Most of them are farmers' wives. That fact was being highlighted. The mistake was made in paying pensions to people who had already reached retirement age.

The legislative provision to deal with these people was under section 110(2).

I ask Deputy Creed to allow the Minister to continue.

No special legislation was introduced in regard to this scheme.

Nobody was being allowed to qualify under discretionary circumstances. It was a matter of highlighting the scheme.

May I make a final intervention?

On a point of order, we can have a fairytale committee or we can hold a proper debate. Members on all sides should respect the rules and procedures rather than make a ninny of the committee. If some members want to continue their discussion with the Minister, perhaps she will make time for them after the meeting.

I have tried to address most of the issues raised by members and look forward to receiving the committee's report.

We have not yet concluded. We asked that the issue be on the agenda and the response I received was to the effect that it would be discussed today. We are entitled to discuss it and it is not the Minister's responsibility to conclude the meeting. That is a matter for the Chairman but some of us want to raise further points.

I thank the Minister for responding to the issues raised in regard to welfare to work. Due to time constraints, we have had little or no discussion on pension policy and social welfare fraud, even though she referred to these major issues in her contribution. I would like an opportunity to discuss these issues.

If Deputy Shortall——

Please allow me to finish.

If the Deputy wishes to raise other important issues, she will have further opportunities to do so. This is not the last time we will meet as a committee. I allowed her to make her case today for every single item she wanted to speak about. The Minister is in the process of answering questions but she received a raw deal from people interrupting her. I do not know how she was able to continue but I will ask her for the last time to conclude.

The Minister has already stated that she has finished her reply. I am making the point that we did not have an opportunity to discuss two major areas and suggest that we invite the Minister to return at an early date for further discussion.

We will certainly go down that road.

The issue of pensions deserves our attention and I support Deputy Shortall's proposal.

Fraud is the other issue. As the Minister noted, she has not yet had an opportunity to respond to our report on social welfare fraud.

We will decide that in private session.

I have one more question on farm pensions. What was different in the case of the 12 people whose pensions were removed and then reinstated? That appears to have been a double mistake by the Department.

I will personally investigate their cases. They did not qualify under the partnership rule but they were found to have made sufficient contributions under a different scheme when they were independently assessed.

What was the involvement of the Revenue Commissioners?

They were able to verify collection of the money over the years.

In conclusion, I thank the Minister for outlining her proposals on these fundamentally important issues which have a considerable impact on many sectors of our society in these difficult times. It has certainly been an informative discussion. As Deputy Blaney said at the start of his comments, the Minister has an extremely tough — almost impossible — portfolio, but she is handling it well and doing a fantastic job to the best of her ability. I thank the Minister most especially.

We will go into private session for the remainder of the meeting. The select committee will meet the Minister again shortly to discuss the social security agreement between Ireland and Japan. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The joint committee went into private session at 1.22 p.m. and adjourned at 1.25 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Wednesday, 17 February 2010.
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