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JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE CONSTITUTION debate -
Tuesday, 9 Dec 2008

Constitutional Referendum Process: Discussion.

I welcome everyone to the meeting. By way of background, the Joint Committee on the Constitution is currently undertaking a review of the constitutional referendum procedure prescribed by Articles 46 and 47 of the Constitution. This is the fifth in a series of meetings the committee is holding with different organisations and individuals to hear their views and perspectives on the constitutional process. To further inform the committee's work in this area, we will also consider the rules applicable in other EU member states to referendum campaigns.

In the first part of its review the committee is focusing on the current arrangements whereby information is imparted to the public during the course of referendum campaigns. At the conclusion of this phase the committee will present a report setting out its opinion to the Houses of the Oireachtas.

I welcome Mr. Martin Territt, director of the European Commission representation in Ireland, and Mr. Anthony Coughlan, senior lecturer emeritus in social policy at Trinity College Dublin and secretary of the National Platform EU Research and Information Centre. Does that fully describe the witnesses?

Mr. Anthony Coughlan

Partly.

We are very grateful to them for taking the time to meet with us and contribute to our review. I thank both witnesses for the submissions they sent ahead of their appearance before us.

Before we commence, I inform witnesses that members of the committee have absolute privilege but that same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. I invite Mr. Territt to make his opening statement.

Mr. Martin Territt

I thank the Chairman for the introduction, which fully describes me as head of the European Commission representation in Ireland. I am delighted to have been invited to this joint committee meeting on the review of the constitutional referendum process. I have been following the committee's deliberations closely. The discussions so far have examined the existing arrangements for the referendum process, with particular attention paid to the three principal judicial decisions and their resulting interpretation by the stakeholders involved. These interpretations have led to a multifaceted process which, by the nature of the conditions required to call a referendum, is not frequently used and can, therefore, be complicated for all of the actors involved, and for the electorate, to negotiate. This has ramifications for the ratification in Ireland of future European Union treaties.

In my opening remarks I would like to refer to questions relating to sovereignty and the European Union. The Lisbon treaty has, in many ways, pushed the boundaries of the current system and I note that this has been referred to frequently in the committee's deliberations so far. The Irish Constitution was drafted some time before Ireland's accession into the European Economic Community in 1973 and the relevant articles were designed to ensure the validity of the Constitution. They sought to guarantee that this validity would be protected and that any amendment to the Constitution could only occur through a national referendum. Since 1937 there have been 28 proposed amendments to the Constitution, the majority of which have been based on short and relatively concise textual changes to its contents and provisions. The issues at hand were, at times, socially contentious but, compared with some of the recent EU referenda, were somewhat less complex regarding the decision-making process required of the Houses of the Oireachtas and the electorate.

Since 1972 there have been seven referenda on European treaties. The EU has developed, our involvement in it has increased, due to closer integration, and we need to reap the benefits. Issues to be considered in these referenda have increased exponentially. When voting in referenda on EU treaties we must now consider issues of national and European importance which requires the provision of considerably more information on the subject matter with each referendum. In short, we are dealing with a far larger playing field and need to address this appropriately.

We must also reflect on questions of sovereignty as this is a very complex and contentious area of law and reality. I have always believed that membership of the EU affords Ireland, and all member states, greater and more amplified sovereignty than could be conceivable for a nation state acting in isolation. In the context of membership, I have never been comfortable with notions of giving up or ceding sovereignty. While I fully recognise that changes to Ireland's constitutional order are matters for the people to decide, I am not sure that the concept of sovereignty, in the context of the European Union, has been fully considered. I hope the committee gives this matter consideration in the course of its deliberations. I believe it is more than a merely theoretical or legal issue; the question goes to the very heart of the relationships member states have with each other. The pooling and sharing of sovereignty in clearly defined areas has amplified our individual and collective sovereignty within the EU and beyond.

I now refer to the letter I sent you recently, dated 17 November, enclosing a copy of the Broadcasting Complaints Commission, BCC, decision on radio advertisements. I refer, particularly, to the decision of the BCC on a local radio messaging campaign which the Commission representation conducted in 2006. These were a series of messages developed in the context of a "going local" initiative to talk directly with citizens. The purpose of the advertisements was to alert citizens to the different sources of information on European matters and to highlight the existence of a freefone telephone number where they could address any question on European Union issues. We prefaced each advertisement with a rapid fact about the Union, and a total of 11 different messages were delivered across the local radio network. Following a complaint to the BCC that these were of a political nature, we, as the European Commission, pointed out to the BCC that we were not a political party and did not contest elections. We said we were anxious to inform citizens of European Union matters, something which almost everyone, including all the governments of all member states agreed we should do, and that all the messages we delivered were established facts designed to inform citizens about the workings of the European Union and alert them to the rights conferred by European Union legislation. The BCC took the view that the messages were of a political nature and, therefore, contravened the ban on advertising aimed towards a political end.

This matter should prompt consideration of the legislation governing broadcasting in this State. If all of the member states agree that citizens should be informed on European Union issues it seems at variance with that objective that legislation should be interpreted to exclude the European Union and one of its institutions from delivering information in the most efficient and effective ways available. At the very least, a more comprehensive definition of "political" should be considered in the context of advertising, specifically in the broadcast media.

I would not like to be interpreted as suggesting that this decision constrains the European Commission from advertising, on radio or otherwise. However, the wide-ranging interpretation of the BCC as to the role and remit of the European Commission is at variance with our remit under the treaties establishing the European Union. The decision, potentially, impedes the general public from receiving information about the Union.

On communicating Europe and how that can be done, it has become clear that the Irish public may not be fully of the role and ambit of the European Union. It is clear that there is a significant information deficit between the Irish people and the European Union. This is so in many other, if not all, member states of the Union. This must be addressed so that Irish and European citizens can make informed decisions regarding European affairs in the future. I noted that Professor Michael Marsh, in his presentation to the joint committee on 25 November, stated that we know less than the average European on European Union affairs and that press coverage on such affairs is lower in Ireland than in other member states. This is impeding us in making fully informed choices regarding our role in the European Union. During her address to the Sub-Committee on Ireland's future in the European Union last month, the European Commission Vice President, Margot Wallström, said a solution to this dilemma needs the engagement of Irish people, families and individuals, who felt they lacked information and understanding about the Lisbon treaty. It also needs the engagement of women and young people, who the polls show felt alienated and unsure, and the socially excluded, who felt they did not have a sufficient stake in change. In the absence of clear information and communication, ill-informed or not fully informed concerns and fears will take root and grow.

The European Commission believes that reaching a solution must involve improving the current systems of communicating Europe and conveying what benefits Ireland's Union membership brings, as well as establishing what membership means to Irish citizens. It also requires that we explain how the Union works, the roles of the institutions, voting arrangements, the use and benefit of vetoes and where they apply, as well as Ireland's position on different EU policy issues. This means reaching out to wider audiences and using all media formats available, from radio and television to the Internet. To identify what needs to be done, we need to listen and respond to people's concerns.

Whatever the format, we need to communicate in easily accessible language which people can understand and to which they can relate. Increasing people's understanding is largely a matter for domestic policy, particularly in the education sphere, but we in the European Commission are ready, willing and able to assist the State's education sector as required. We have a great deal of pedagogic material and a variety of educational content for both teachers and students, which should enable us to take a long-term approach.

There is a more immediate need to communicate what we do on a day-to-day basis and what concrete action we are taking on specific policy initiatives. The communications endeavour must be a partnership arrangement on the part of the Commission, the European Parliament and member states. As the Minister for Foreign Affairs signalled, in the coming days the Commission will sign a memorandum of understanding on communicating in partnership with the Irish Government and the European Parliament and that will provide a stronger basis in the future for our joint communications initiatives.

I thank the Chairman and members for their attention. I am available to answer questions and to provide any other information they require.

I thank Mr. Territt. Unfortunately, the Broadcasting Complaints Commission was not in a position to attend but it has indicated it will come to the meeting next week. I will speak to Mr. Territt afterwards on the question of whether he can attend that meeting.

One of the major points Mr. Territt made was that the information deficit between Ireland and Europe is significant, as is the case in respect of many member states. It is more relevant here because we are the only one of the 27 member states which has, from time to time, to refer issues to the people for the purpose of amending the Constitution in respect of European matters. I understand the importance of making information available to our citizens. I may be playing devil's advocate but what constitutes information can be contentious. I have spoken to my constituents on European matters and it seems that what is fact to one person may be fiction to another and we are addressing ways of getting over this. This is what the advertisements that fell foul of the Broadcasting Complaints Commission were trying to achieve. The commission's decision on the relevant complaint seemed odd.

How can we ensure that established facts are accepted? How can we ensure that obvious pieces of fiction are seen as such? I will give an example from the doorsteps. I was solemnly informed by a number of people during the last referendum campaign that if the Lisbon treaty went through, our sons would be conscripted into a European army. This was total fiction but I had difficulty convincing people that this was the case. However, at least I had the opportunity to convince people when the matter was raised on the doorsteps. How can we separate fact from fiction when it comes to dealing with information?

Mr. Martin Territt

Separating fact from fiction goes beyond the sphere of the European Union and is applicable to all walks of life. In the context of the European Union, this relates to the point I was trying to elaborate for the committee this morning. Ireland and the European Union are inseparable with regard to the competences conferred on the European Union. When Ireland participates in the decision-making process as a member state and concludes a directive or regulation, the piece of legislation concerned is seamless throughout the EU, from Ireland to Greece. This issue is not fully internalised in the Irish psyche.

Ireland has been a member of the EU since 1973 but sometimes our membership has been characterised in terms of the financial benefits that have accrued since then, as opposed to what we have contributed to the EU in terms of politics, the social dimension and the economic dimension. The relationship between Ireland and the EU established in the treaties has not been fully internalised and, as a result, fictions are easier to propagate. It is more difficult to emphasise the representation of Irish statehood that is firmly rooted in the Constitution. This is the case not only in Ireland but in many, perhaps all, member states. The type of relationship we have with each other since 1957, and since 1973 in the case of Ireland, is quite new. It is a new form of governance in the region so it needs to root itself more deeply within public acceptance. Without that, issues surrounding conscription to a mythical European army can take root more easily. No one would be taken seriously if he or she suggested the Irish State would conscript citizens into the Irish Army. People accept that is not part of what citizenship of this State means, but people may not know that there is no European army and that, as a result, conscription to such an entity is not possible.

If apparently responsible people propagate that myth and people believe them how do we deal with it?

Mr. Martin Territt

We can deal with it by the Europeanisation of the Oireachtas. It is useful to have a discussion such as this to embed the European Union and all its emanations within the very fabric of the body politic of the State. Fictions are difficult to deal with in any walk of life but those of us whose job it is to address fictions have an obligation to rebut them. The European Commission representation takes its obligations very seriously in that regard.

Some of these questions might also be relevant to Mr. Coughlan.

I have a specific question on the text because I am not clear about it.

I will put the same question to Mr. Coughlan.

I ask members to hold the questions they intended to put to both witnesses. If they have specific questions on the text, they may ask them.

Mr. Territt says the European Union representation conducted an advertising and messaging campaign on local radio in 2006. Is that date correct? He says that, even though it was outside the context of a referendum, the representation was restricted by the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland in that regard. I do not understand Mr. Territt's statement that he would not like this to be interpreted as suggesting that the decision constrained the European Commission from advertising on radio or otherwise. How does this decision restrict the European Commission from informing the citizens of Ireland about the European Union, its institutions and its decision making?

Mr. Martin Territt

It is a fairly complicated decision and I have circulated a copy to the committee. The advertisements in question go back to 2006 and ran for a 20-week period across local radio, taking in 26 or 27 radio stations. A complaint was made and I am sure one of the complainants, who is sitting beside me, will speak on the matter. The grounds of the complaint were that the campaign contravened the Broadcasting Acts and their ban on political advertising. The decision picked out several advertisements which it believed contravened the ban but seems to give the all clear in respect of others. It is not clear why the commission made its decision. Because the commission found some of the advertisements to have contravened the Broadcasting Acts all the advertisements were deemed to be unacceptable. However, there is a distinction in that the decision of the commission does not, a priori, impose a blanket ban on all advertising which the European Commission may wish to undertake. If the European Commission were to decide to undertake further radio advertising, I understand we could, in the light of the code of practice of the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland, seek prior clearance of any advertisements to ensure they were not in contravention of the Broadcasting Acts.

If the European Commission had a problem with the decision, why did it not consider appealing it to the courts?

Mr. Martin Territt

I was advised that the only avenue of appeal was a judicial review and I did not see any basis for seeking a review of a decision of the commission. Under the present arrangements, there does not seem to be any avenue of appeal on the substance of a decision.

Nevertheless, the European Commission had recourse to the courts.

Mr. Martin Territt

Yes.

The other interesting aspect of the decision was its timing because October 2006 was well in advance of the date of announcement of the referendum. The decision seems ludicrous in the context of our discussion on the information deficit and the belief people do not know enough about the European Union. It is ironic that an attempt to inform people of EU matters should be banned 18 months before the announcement of the referendum in spring 2008. Some assumptions may have been made that there would be a referendum in 2008 but there was no such assumption in 2006. Why did the European Commission not contest the decision, given the fact that there was no political campaign at the time? Surely it would have been possible to rebut the suggestion its messages were political in nature. Perhaps Mr. Coughlan will also respond to that point.

Mr. Coughlan may respond afterwards but I call on Mr. Territt to reply.

Mr. Martin Territt

I thank Deputy Kennedy for his questions. The European Commission has a communications prerogative deriving from the treaties. We seek to exercise this prerogative on an ongoing basis to inform people about the work we do and the general workings of the European Union. In member states it falls to the representations of the Commission to carry out that work in line with the communications policy adopted by the Commission. In exercising our prerogative we try to inform citizens in the most impartial way possible. It is ultimately up to them to decide whether they like what they hear, as they can do in any other area of life. It is never the intention of the Commission to interfere in the referendum or electoral process of a member state. We have often been asked to assist member states in various political processes in which they are engaged. As has been correctly indicated, these radio spots went out at a time when there was no contestation in terms of a referendum. However, the decision of the Broadcasting Complaints Commission, BCC was not related to a referendum process; it received a complaint and took a decision in the course of its normal business. As I indicated to Senator Regan, we had the possibility of seeking a judicial review but we chose not to. I was advised that a judicial review would relate to the procedural aspects of the decision-making of the Broadcasting Complaints Commission, but I had no issue with those. As I indicated, I have issues with the substance of the BCC decision.

We might come back to that next week.

Would it not be fair to say that when the advertisements were first run, in spring 2006, there was uncertainty about the status of the constitutional treaty? Were they not run in a referendum context at that stage?

Mr. Martin Territt

The decision to run these advertisements, and our various communications activities, always relate to the circumstances at a given time in given member states. At that time I was not aware of any announcement by the Government on taking a particular course on the treaty. The decision to run the advertisements and conduct our normal business, which includes various promotional activities in newspapers, citizens' debates and such actions, was part of the normal business we continue to do.

The Lisbon treaty was a 2007 process and Ireland held its referendum in 2008. In 2006, despite what happened in France and the Netherlands, there was no formal decision at European Commission level or by the European Council that the constitutional treaty in that format and its ratification process were finished. It was still an ongoing process in spring 2006.

Mr. Martin Territt

Yes, absolutely. However, the radio advertisements in question and the other communications activities were not directed at the then constitutional treaty. We sought to inform citizens about their rights and legislation which had been enacted by the European legislature that conferred certain benefits on them. We also sought to draw the attention of our citizens to the fact that there are many sources of information regarding such rights. We wished to inform people that they could access such sources easily and for free.

Mr. Territt has said that the level of press coverage on EU affairs is lower in Ireland than in other member states. Just as some politicians need to improve how they communicate with people on Europe, is there need for the Commission to work harder on the communication process? Is it possible to do this and does Mr. Territt expect better results in future?

Mr. Martin Territt

I was quoting from Professor Marsh's exposé to the committee some weeks ago as it was he who said the level of press coverage on EU affairs is lower in Ireland than elsewhere. It is difficult for me to judge whether that is the case. Since the commencement of the term of this Commission we have established a complete directorate general for communication. We have a Vice President, Ms Margot Wallström, in charge of communication and we have enhanced our capacity to communicate over the past four years by taking a variety of measures, including strengthening the role, scope and ambit of the representations of the Commission in the member states.

Improving communications at all levels, including domestic and European, is an ongoing process and I include my institution in that. We can continually learn and seek better means of communicating. One of the best means of communication is not necessarily pumping more information into the communications pipe but engaging in a dialogue with citizens. This will enhance the capacity of citizens to give us feedback, either directly or through elected representatives, and give us a better understanding. In creating the conditions for such a dialogue we can also create better conditions relating to the purpose of the European Union.

I apologise to Mr. Coughlan for the delay; perhaps he would begin his presentation.

Mr. Anthony Coughlan

I was happy to receive in November an invitation from the committee to answer some questions. In response to that invitation my colleagues and I made a 14 page submission which I think everyone has received. I will make some brief remarks on the submission.

Our organisation is voluntary and quite small; it consists of me and a few others, some of whom are lawyers. We try to ensure that the information we produce on EU matters, especially proposed treaties, is legally accurate. We make it available to whoever is interested and have done so in successive referenda. I am secretary of the organisation and, as a voluntary body, we get no support from public funds.

As the committee is aware, referenda in Ireland are a form of direct legislation for citizens. Just as Members of the Oireachtas are on a plane of equality when voting on whether to enact a Bill, the citizens of Ireland are on a plane of equality when deciding whether to amend the Constitution. The citizens are legislators in referenda and that point must be borne in mind as a guideline for proposals one might make on the referendum process and how it might be improved. On this basis it would not be proper to endow any group of citizens with special privileges in a referendum. Political parties are groups of citizens and that is why the Constitution does not refer to them. They come and go and may have very differing views on referenda; sometimes they are interested and sometimes they are relatively indifferent. Political parties put Bills through the Oireachtas and referenda go before the citizens. This is the logical and constitutional basis for refusing to privilege political parties in any way, such as by endowing them with public funds or special access to broadcasting facilities, in a referendum process. These issues were teased out in the various court cases, particularly those relating to the McKenna and Coughlan judgments. I was responsible for the latter and it arose from a judicial review of a decision of the Broadcasting Complaints Commission on a complaint I made some years ago.

In our submission we made some suggestions on how the referendum process might be improved regarding public information. There is a case for having free, uncontested broadcasts in referenda, as long as they are on an equal basis for both sides. Since my case on this subject there have been no free political party broadcasts on referenda. One can imagine a situation involving umbrella groups on both sides giving broadcasts that would help enlighten the public on the pros and cons of the relevant referendum proposition. That is allowed for in other countries. There is provision for umbrella groups in Britain.

The most valuable institution for informing the public as to referendum issues is the Referendum Commission. This is elaborated on in the submission we made. Its job under the Referendum Act 1998 is to inform citizens what the constitutional amendment is and its text. Citizens are being asked to alter the text of their Constitution and need to be told what that entails. We submit, with all due respect to the Referendum Commission, that it fell down woefully in that job in the Lisbon treaty referendum in June. It failed to address itself primarily to the constitutional amendment. It confined its activities overwhelmingly to summarising the provisions of the Treaty of Lisbon, giving little or no indication to the public that the Treaty of Lisbon would abolish the existing European Communities, for example, which no one ever heard about from the Referendum Commission, although the European Communities are mentioned in the Constitution and may be abolished, with the exception of the Atomic Energy Community, and that legally a new European Union would in effect be established by the Treaty of Lisbon. That is quite evident from the first sentence of the constitutional amendment, which makes quite clear that the proposed amendment would establish a new European Union, different from the Union which currently exists, founded on the Treaty of Maastricht, a very important development about which citizens were not informed at all. Nor were citizens informed, for example, that national governments lose their right to decide who their national Commissioner is if the Treaty of Lisbon is ratified. Their present right to propose and decide would be replaced by a right to make suggestions only, for the incoming president to decide. They are two examples of important items of vital constitutional information which citizens were in general denied by the Referendum Commission.

I strongly support the notion of the Referendum Commission, as long as the commission does a proper job and is adequately resourced. It must be given adequate resources to do its job, but the clear evidence to anyone who looks at the matter objectively would bear out our contention that it fell down on the job in the Lisbon treaty referendum. I am confident that if it had done a proper job, the "No" vote would have been much higher than it was. That is an important point and this committee would do a very useful job if it drew attention to that fact and suggested ways in which the Referendum Commission could do a better job. As the committee knows, the function of setting out the "Yes" side and "No" side arguments was taken away from the Referendum Commission in December 2001, even though Fine Gael and the Labour Party opposed that development. I suggest that the Fine Gael, Labour and Green Party members of this committee might usefully recommend that the Yes/No function should be restored to the Referendum Commission. That would help hugely in informing the public. The Referendum Commission is regarded as a respectable body and if it does its job it will carry out a useful function. The value of the Yes/No arguments being put by the commission is that it can exclude ad hominem arguments or arguments irrelevant to the proposed constitutional amendment, whereas if we allow a free field for any kind of argument we get all sorts of nonsense.

The other relevant point is that when public funds are behind the "Yes" side and "No" side arguments, private interests are inclined to let the Referendum Commission do a proper job by setting out the "Yes" side and "No" side arguments. If the committee recommended that course of action and if the Oireachtas decided to implement it, it would hugely improve the position from the point of view of informing the public. I have indicated the possibility of more free broadcasts as long as they are on the plane of equality which the Supreme Court laid down as being required. Equality is not just a question of crude time. There are many dimensions to fair, objective and impartial representation of views. It is not a question of allocating broadcasting time on issues of public controversy and debate in accordance with a stopwatch. Personnel, mode of presentation of a broadcast and so on are important dimensions of fairness. Those are the two main points that arise from our submission.

I turn now to the main points we made about the European Commission. I was not aware that Mr. Territt was to be here this morning. On pages 8 and 9 of our submission we address the issue Mr. Territt mentioned in his presentation, particularly these broadcasts which I well remember. Listening in 2006 to Newstalk 106, for example, which was then a local radio station confined to the Dublin area, I heard these broadcasts, which I think continued into 2007. That is my memory. In judging this matter, one needs to look at the character of the broadcasts. No one disputes that the European Commission has a valid information role in existing treaties. It has information and communications in relation to people's rights and entitlements, what the EU does in a multitude of areas, agriculture and many other areas.

It is quite a different matter when it comes to proposed new treaties. The European Commission has no role in relation to the ratification of treaties. It is not a party to the treaties. That is why it should be particularly sensitive in avoiding any intervention during the period leading up to the ratification of treaties because it might well influence opinion and voting behaviour. The Broadcasting Complaints Commission, as I understand it, has particular criteria as to what constitutes political broadcasting. A political broadcast is one that can influence voting behaviour. It is true to say that the Lisbon referendum occurred some months after these broadcasts were first made. If most of those broadcasts had not been struck down as, in effect, unlawful because they were political in character, realistically one can have little doubt that Mr. Territt would have proceeded with the broadcasts subsequently, perhaps using national radio and television as well as on local broadcast media.

The European Commission's intervention needs to be very sensitive. It should not get involved at all in disseminating messages that could influence voting behaviour in the context of an impending referendum. Everyone knew in late 2006 or early 2007 that the constitutional treaty was going to be revived, as indeed it was in the form of the Lisbon treaty. The Commission knew it very well. It is undeniable that the Commission is a very self-interested party when it comes to new treaties as the Commission gets many new powers under new treaties. Under the Treaty of Lisbon it gets powers to propose laws in many new areas. The European Commission has the monopoly of legislative proposals in the European Union and in some 30 or so legal areas of policy and law proposals the monopoly is extended by the Treaty of Lisbon. It is a very self-interested party. It wants to get this treaty through. With all due respect to Mr. Territt and his superiors, it would be naive not to think that they would do their best to try to influence opinion in Ireland and other countries holding a referendum.

It is very important to look at the character of the advertisements put. Am I to understand that the Broadcasting Complaints Commission report has been circulated?

We received it as the sitting started.

Mr. Anthony Coughlan

Does it contain the advertisements? That would save me the job of circulating those. On page 9 of our submission we refer to the advertisements. They are not just innocuous statements drawing attention to the existence of the Europe Direct Information Centre. I am sure it does quite a good job in disseminating information. Look at the character of the advertisements.

It does include the advertisements.

Mr. Anthony Coughlan

I quote from page 9:

Do you know that Ireland has received so many million euros since we joined the Community in 1973? To find out more, contact EU Direct.

Do you know that EU legislation has lowered air fares and phone charges, etc.? To find out more, contact EU Direct. It is not contacting EU Direct that anyone could object to. EU Direct and other information sources have a valid information function in relation to previous treaties, but I am sure all members here are well aware that messages of this kind, even though they are factual, are certainly likely to influence voting behaviour. That was the criterion which I assume the Broadcasting Complaints Commission took into account when they decided these were political statements, as part of the advertisements. That is the key point to bear in mind. It is not the job of the European Commission to try to influence voting behaviour, but of course they will deny that they were attempting to do so.

Mr. Territt was given €360,000, a lot of money, to spend on these local advertisements. There is little doubt that if my complaint and the separate complaint made by Ms Patricia McKenna had not been upheld by the Broadcasting Complaints Commission, these broadcasts would probably have been repeated at local level and transmitted at national level. If the principle of these broadcasts being OK locally had been accepted, the Commission would have approached RTE who would have been much more sensitive to the matter. This committee should rap Mr. Territt and his office over the knuckles, so to speak, for being in breach of Irish law.

I am going to let him reply.

Mr. Anthony Coughlan

The European Commission should keep out of the ratification process of Irish referendums because it is a self-interested party which will get a lot more power if a particular treaty is passed. While it has a valid information function in relation to existing ratified treaties, it does not have any function in influencing voting behaviour in a referendum. That is quite important and deals with the points Mr. Territt has made.

The last point refers to people being hauled into a European army by conscription. I was in very close touch with virtually all the groups on the "No" side in the Lisbon referendum. There were two far left groups with which I did not have any contact. I am not aware of any of these groups who were making this point systematically or in their literature.

It is total myth.

We will let Mr. Coughlan finish.

I would like the answer to that. Do you accept that it is total myth?

Mr. Anthony Coughlan

Yes. There is no proposal for conscription to a European army.

Why was that not made clear, if you were interested in facts being produced?

Mr. Anthony Coughlan

May I finish? The first person to raise this point was Mr. Tony Browne in a letter to The Irish Times months before the referendum. I put this point in the submission to the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Ireland’s Future in the European Union. Mr. Browne said that typical of the wild statements made by the “No” side were allegations about conscription to a European army. About a week before the referendum, Deputy Micheál Martin, our Minister for Foreign Affairs, went on radio or television — I forget which — making the same point, that wild statements about conscription to a European army were being put about by the “No” side parties. Nothing was more calculated to give this issue legs than Deputy Martin’s intervention. I submit that all this talk about conscription to a European army has come primarily from the “Yes” side elements in the Lisbon treaty referendum in order to discredit internationally the valid and legitimate case of people on the “No” side. This has gone all over Europe. I have met it in Brussels, where people have said that those in Ireland are worried about conscription to a European army. Where did that come from? It came originally from Mr. Tony Browne. The point was given legs by Deputy Martin. When the Minister for Foreign Affairs mentions a thing like that on radio or television, people all over the country hear about it.

Do you accept that it is entirely a myth?

Mr. Anthony Coughlan

There is no European army at present but there is a proposal in the Lisbon treaty. At least, it refers to a common defence, which will come about. A common defence is understood to be a European army.

Do you accept that it is total myth that there will be conscription into a European army if the Lisbon treaty is passed?

Mr. Anthony Coughlan

There is no such suggestion. These suggestions came from the other side.

Do you want to conclude your presentation?

Mr. Anthony Coughlan

I think I have mentioned all the key points.

You mentioned amending the Constitution by means other than a referendum.

Mr. Anthony Coughlan

We did make that point, but it would have to be approved by the citizens themselves in a referendum. They would be quite unlikely to approve anything like that. There is not an awful lot left of the Irish Constitution when most of our laws are ready made by the European Union. It has been amended so radically already that it is absurd to suggest it needs further amendment. In that general context I do not think it is a practical proposition.

Thank you very much, Mr. Coughlan, for your presentation and your contribution. If members agree, I will afford Mr. Territt time to make some comments, if he so wishes. I see Deputy Jim O'Keeffe wishes to ask a question.

The main point I take from Mr. Coughlan's submission is his claim that there is no role for political parties in a referendum campaign, that it is primarily up to citizens themselves to become informed of the referendum issues.

Mr. Anthony Coughlan

You misunderstand me. Of course there is a role for political parties. It is a political role, not a constitutional role. Political parties in the Dail decide by majority to put a referendum Bill and they campaign for and against, using their own funds. There is no constitutional role. If there is a constitutional role, then it is fair to endow them with public money or privilege them by giving them special broadcasting time. When the Bill comes out from the Oireachtas and goes before the citizens, every citizen is equal and there is no constitutional basis, I suggest, for endowing with privilege any group of citizens over another.

You say that yours is a small group, yourself and a few lawyers. There are other groups similar to that on the "Yes" side but particularly on the "No" side. They appear to have special privilege with access over and above that which half a dozen people out of four million should have as far as broadcasting and the media are concerned. Is that not unfair?

Mr. Anthony Coughlan

The Supreme Court decided, if I remember rightly in my own case, that every citizen is an interested party in a referendum. The Broadcasting Acts require broadcasters to be fair, impartial and objective at all times in their coverage of issues of public controversy and debate, of which a referendum sometimes is, and to be fair to all interests concerned. That is the rationale for not endowing any particular group of citizens. A lot of the political parties have the possibility of putting their point of view in free broadcasts and that used to be the case. The case I instituted led to the Supreme Court laying down that because of the fairness required under the Broadcasting Acts, there should be broad equality of coverage when it comes to a referendum issue. There is nothing to stop RTE or any other broadcaster giving a lot of time, even limitless time, to both sides in a referendum in free broadcasts. It is up to the group to decide whether they want political parties or non-parties. A political party sometimes would not be interested in such broadcasts. In other referendums they might be. It differs from situation to situation.

If there are half a dozen people in your group and in Fianna Fáil in Dublin South-Central there are half a dozen people who might be interested, and the same in Fine Gael in the same area, why do those people not have the same access to broadcasting? Why does it necessarily have to be the issue rather than the people? You say that a referendum is democracy at the base level where the people make the legislation.

Mr. Anthony Coughlan

It is the broadcasters who decide who goes on a broadcast.

Should we change the law then?

Mr. Anthony Coughlan

Broadcasters are bound by the Broadcasting Act to be fair, impartial and objective in their coverage of matters of public controversy and debate and also to be fair to all interested parties in a referendum. Every citizen is an interested party. That does not preclude broadcasters from recognising that political parties and various non-party groups are organised bodies that have views referendum issues. That would not preclude broadcasters from allocating a series of broadcasts to both sides. That used to be the case in referendums until I took my case in the divorce referendum. I was not particularly involved as such, but in the week coming up to the divorce referendum in 1995, 42 minutes of free broadcasting time were given to the "Yes" side because all the political parties in the Oireachtas were for a "Yes" vote, with 10 minutes allowed for the non-party groups on the "No" side. Almost certainly, this had a huge influence on the outcome, although no one can prove that. The Broadcasting Complaints Commission upheld it and I took the step which Mr. Territt did not take. I sought judicial review of the rejection of my complaint by the Broadcasting Complaints Commission. The matter went to the High Court and the Supreme Court because RTE appealed against it. Dr. Garret FitzGerald, then a member of the RTE Authority, was very strong on this and pushed for the appeal. The Supreme Court upheld the judgment of the High Court that when it comes to free broadcasts, which are in part financed by the licence and in which public funds are involved, no one can prejudge the outcome of a referendum.

I might respectfully make the suggestion to remove one's mind from the Lisbon treaty. Suppose there is a proposition before the citizens to adopt the British electoral system or to extend the term of a Dáil to eight years. Would this committee or any democrat be happy to endow the political parties in favour of that proposition with extra sums of public money or give them more entitlement to broadcasts on the grounds that they had so many members? It is not possible to work out a rational scheme for allocating broadcasts on the basis of the size of groups.

I raised with Mr. Territt the issue that one person's fact is another person's fiction. How do we ensure that the people are fully informed? You say it is primarily a matter for the citizens to inform themselves of the referendum issue. Couple that with your approach that as soon as the legislation has gone through the Dáil political parties are to be considered in the same way as any other association which has a view. You say that the half dozen in your organisation are entitled to equal time on the airwaves as the Taoiseach and the Fianna Fáil Party. At the same time you bring an application before the Broadcasting Complaints Commission on the basis that the European Commission produced an advertisement such as the one you quoted stating that since we joined the European Community in 1973 we received €40 billion, a proven fact. You think that might influence voter behaviour. If you do want facts to be published because they might influence voter behaviour and if you do not want a situation where political parties genuinely want to get the facts before the people during a referendum campaign on any issue, how are the citizens to learn the facts? How are they to differentiate between the facts and the multiple fictions that were abroad at the time of the last referendum and many of the others, going back to the first referendum on Europe in 1973? How do we deal with that?

Mr. Anthony Coughlan

No one is claiming that political parties and other groups have not the right to participate in referendums. They have large resources, people they can send around the houses. Political parties are totally entitled to campaign in referendums and non-party groups likewise, and let the citizens be persuaded by the strength of the arguments of the resources of the bodies concerned. No on is disputing that. At issue here are the Broadcasting Acts. Irish Broadcasting Acts, like such legislation elsewhere, forbid or ban political broadcasts. Political broadcasts are judged by the relevant authorities to be broadcasts which influence votes. The Supreme Court has judged that it would be unfair in the context of a referendum and in the context of citizens being equal in the referendum context to privilege particular groups of citizens by using public money or public broadcasting resources to endow one group of citizens over another. That is the issue. It is not I who make the law. That is the law as laid down first by the Oireachtas and second by the Supreme Court in interpreting the Constitution.

There is nothing to prevent political parties conveying their messages. When they seek special privileges, either in the form of money or broadcasting time in a referendum context, that would be to endow one group of citizens as against another. There are some referendums with which political parties are largely unconcerned. For example, the bail referendum and one or two tickly referendums, even the abortions referendums. The push for those did not come primarily from the political parties, as you know. It is quite wrong to think the political parties are slavering at the mouth to take part in referendums. They are very interested in some referendums, such as the European referendum.

I am still struggling with the notion that Irish people need to be better informed because of our practice and obligation to hold referenda on matters than the people of other European countries where those decisions made of their behalf. It might be part of the problem with the state of the European Union in general that there is a lack of awareness or involvement at citizens' level that we really should be talking about.

Mr. Coughlan's point about the Referendum Commission is one I raised a number of weeks ago when we had our three professors present in relation to some of these issues. I agree with him regarding the original terms of reference of the Referendum Commission as being more apt and probably more effective in a referendum campaign. Professor Michael Marsh pointed out that the use of those terms of reference in 2001 for the Nice referendum might not have been particularly helpful in that they ran a series of advertisements involving actors alternating between the "Yes" and "No" arguments in the same advertisement, which seems to have led to greater public confusion. The presentation of the totality of "Yes" arguments and the totality of "No" arguments might have been a better way of doing it.

Mr. Coughlan also mentioned the need to have just constitutional principles and appropriate legislation in the conduct of referenda, especially when the subject matter can be very contentious. I have raised this matter myself at this committee. It is necessary to stress the importance of these court judgments and the environment in which they have to be assessed. Do you think there have been unintended consequences from the success of your judgment in that, on the one hand, it has been interpreted in such a way that public resources are not provided at all in public information terms, that it has allowed a space for those of independent means and the potential for demagogery for those who possess such means to influence referenda and that this needs to be controlled?

While I accept the principle of the arguments being given equal air time and the referenda being conducted on the same basis, political representatives and political parties have been marginalised and the ability of political representatives and spokespersons for political parties to communicate has been lessened. That is the second consequence of the interpretation of the judgment. There are fewer opportunities for people who have an electoral mandate and a reason to participate in all matters of political discussion in the context of a referendum campaign. These opportunities are lessened by people appearing on the scene, with no previous experience or background, who are given a parity of esteem which would not exist in ordinary political discourse.

You mention the umbrella groups in Britain in 1975. I think this system has been used more successfully in Denmark in their European referenda where there was an attempt to identify groups that would represent "Yes" and "No" arguments in a referendum and to allocate public resources and air time appropriately. I would be interested to know whether you think those attempts meet many of the concerns that continue to exist or do you think there is a need to look for a better model?

Mr. Anthony Coughlan

In my opinion the Referendum Commission has the potential to do a very good job if it were given the resources and especially if the Yes/No function were restored to it. It was treated lousily in the several referenda until the last one. The importance of the Referendum Commission having a Yes/No function is that it can ensure that the "Yes" arguments and the "No" arguments are rooted in the referendum proposition, that they can represent genuine fears or genuine hopes, depending on which side you are on, about the referendum proposition. That, I think, would be the most useful recommendation that this committee could make to improve the conduct of referendums. Since Fine Gael, the Labour Party and the Greens were opposed to the excision of that function, it is well worth considering.

When it comes to a referendum campaign generally, all groups are perfectly entitled to take part, whether they are large or small, well endowed or otherwise. There are, of course, public controls on expenditure by individuals. Expenditure from abroad is illegal in an Irish referendum, quite rightly. The people best endowed in the context of a referendum campaign are, as everyone know, the political parties. Fianna Fáil would be the best endowed party and Fine Gael next, for the obvious reason that they are the largest parties. They are perfectly entitled to use their resources to put out messages and try to convince citizens that they should vote for or against. The issue under discussion is publicly endowed resources, whether public funds or the use of broadcasting time, which is indirectly supported by public funds through licence fees. The principle which the Supreme Court has quite rightly laid down is that when it comes to the use of public resources, whether money or broadcasting time, it should be on a fair and impartial basis between both sides. Nobody knows what the outcome of the referendum will be. To give more to one side rather than the other is to pre-judge the outcome of the referendum and to move away from the principle that all citizens are equal.

As Ms Justice Susan Denham laid down in the judgment in the McKenna case, citizens have a right to a democratic referendum, to fairness in a referendum and to equality in a referendum. That has implications not only for the allocation of money but also broadcasting time. There is nothing to stop broadcasters, as I understand it, taking steps to ensure that the "Yes" side and "No" side elements are fairly represented in broadcasts. They do that in their regular current affairs programmes, and they are required to do it, in seeking to be fair, impartial and objective. That is why people from smaller groups were against Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael in the Lisbon treaty referendum in "Questions and Answers". The Green Party is on the same basis as Fianna Fail and Fine Gael, which are much larger, in ordinary current affairs programmes.

Being fair, impartial and objective is not just a question of equality of time. That is an important dimension, perhaps the most important, but there are many other dimensions. You could have equality of time, but if you had lunatics on one side and sensible people on the other, you have a very unfair situation. Broadcasters can influence that kind of thing. These are very sensitive and delicate issues. I do not think it is possible to lay down mechanical rules for fairness, impartiality and objectivity. It must be left to the sensitivity and professional judgment of the broadcasters. When it comes to free broadcasts or contested broadcasts, where each broadcast has a partisan point of view, this committee might consider recommending that X minutes should be given to the "Yes" side and X minutes to the "No" side in a referendum. It could be left to the chief exponents or to some umbrella group, or some reliable group that could seek to do justice to both sides.

At the time of the first Nice referendum, I remember Mr. Justice Finlay calling us in and Alan Dukes from the European Movement and asking if our two organisations could be referred to in the Yes/No leaflets which went to every household, as bodies that would seek to put the views of each side responsibly. That was done. An analogous device could be adopted in relation to broadcasting. The committee might choose to recommend that in referendums the broadcasters should consider the allocation of a certain amount of free broadcasting time to both sides, leaving it to the key people on both sides or to some representative element of both sides, or an umbrella group for both sides, if such existed. British legislation on referendums allows for umbrella groups, not just in the 1975 referendum but in future referendums. Sometimes an umbrella group may not come into existence for a referendum because people are not sufficiently interested. The British legislation allows a specific sum for an umbrella group on each side and the prospect of a pot of gold is a great incentive for people to form an umbrella group.

Having read through the decision of the Broadcasting Complaints Commission and the seven advertisements, it is regrettable that the European Commission office did not seek a judicial review of this decision. All the statements made in the advertisements are statements of fact. The decisions of any public body have to be rational. That is part of the judicial review test. I find the decision quite perverse. It would have clarified the law in this important area. If the European Commission is unduly restricted in imparting information about the benefits of the European Union, which self evidently emerge from the facts — cheap air fares, quality of food or whatever — it does not make much sense.

In the course of the Nice referendum, Mr. Coughlan said that Nice would allow the big states to establish an inner political directorate so that they could not be outnumbered by the smaller states. Effectively they could "hijack the EU institutions for their own purposes and present the rest with continual political and economic faits accompli.” Do you find that your description of the impact of Nice has been borne out by events?

Mr. Anthony Coughlan

In reference to the enhanced co-operation provisions of the Treaty of Nice, which are still there ——

Hijack of the institutions is what Mr. Coughlan suggested.

Mr. Anthony Coughlan

The Treaty of Nice allowed certain possibilities to occur in the future. It still does. If the Treaty of Lisbon is not ratified, for example, it is quite on the cards that the more federalist inclined states like France, Germany and others might decide to form a quasi federation or harmonise taxes among themselves, using the institutions of the Union to do that, and the rest would not go along. That is permitted under the enhanced co-operation provisions of the Treaty of Nice. It is a very likely development in due course, depending on what happens.

It has not happened. Dramatic, negative effects of Nice have not happened yet.

Mr. Anthony Coughlan

There is a huge break away from the concept of the EU as a partnership of equals where every state would have a veto. This allows a sub-group of states, eight or more — now it is nine or more — to take all sorts of measures of integration among themselves and confront the rest with a fait accompli. That certainly would happen in the future. Nice afterall was 2002. In 2003 the constitutional treaty was signed. The 2003-05 period was dominated by the ratification process of the constitutional treaty. Now we have the Lisbon treaty. That is still there. It was a very big change. It has not happened yet, but it is certainly on the cards if the Lisbon treaty is not ratified that this new mode of procedure, which is a huge break away from the vision of the European Union of every state being equal, because it allows a sub-group to do their own thing.

Is that an argument in favour of Lisbon?

Mr. Anthony Coughlan

No. It is an argument in favour of keeping the Treaty of Nice as being better than the Treaty of Lisbon, for all sorts of obvious reasons which I would be quite happy to elaborate if I had more time.

You rejected the Treaty of Nice, but now it is OK.

Mr. Anthony Coughlan

It is a fait accompli, but it is better than what is proposed. I remember writing an article in The Irish Times on keeping a Europe of equals. The EU was a Europe of equals until the Nice treaty allowed a sub-group to go ahead and do their own thing. Mine is a perfectly valid point of view.

On the point Senator Regan makes about statements of fact being OK if they are in an advertisement, I wonder if that is really the case. The Broadcasting Acts state that political advertisements shall not be carried by Irish broadcasters, but there could certainly be a statement of fact that is a political broadcast. Saying that Ireland got so many millions from the EU from the beginning is a fact — it is true — but it certainly could influence political behaviour. That is the traditional criterion of what constitutes a political broadcast. Would you be happy if, before a general election, the Fianna Fáil Party were allowed to broadcast that it had reduced income tax and made so many people happy? It could be a statement of fact but it would certainly influence behaviour. I suggest that Fine Gael might be rather unhappy if Fianna Fáil were allowed to broadcast advertisements of that kind on radio or television. That is the issue. It is not a question of whether they are facts or not, but whether they can influence behaviour. That is what constitutes a political broadcast.

No one denies the right and duty of the European Commission to inform citizens about certain matters that are within their competence, for example the rights and entitlements of citizens, regulations about this and that. Farmers have to told what the nitrates directive means. The dissemination of this information is primarily the function of the national state, but it could be argued that the Commission has a function. However, this is not the case in relation to new treaties where their intervention can influence behaviour. Mr. Territt is not naive enough to think that advertisements of that kind, undertaken I think for the first time — €360,000 worth of them on local radio stations in late 2006 and I think early 2007 — were not likely to influence behaviour. If they got away with that lot, others would follow on.

That point was made before.

Mr. Anthony Coughlan

Tendentious facts.

Facts are facts.

I will not go back over the decision of the Broadcasting Complaints Commission. I find it quite irrational. In the context of the Lisbon treaty, there is the issue of access to the media and the 50:50 rule which has been found in this committee not to be a rigid rule but it is applied rigidly nevertheless. Your statements of fact during the Lisbon referendum on EU citizenship, primacy of EU law, the new form the the Union and legal personality — I find that the way you presented those issues constituted misinformation and disinformation, which is totally at variance with the express wording in the treaty.

I will take one example and I ask for a response. You highlighted a number of times, including your opinion piece in The Irish Times, that Irish citizens were made EU citizens for the first time. Article 17 of the Treaty of the European Communities expressly states that citizenship of the Union is hereby established. Every person holding the nationality of a member state shall be a citizen of the Union. Citizenship of the Union shall complement and not replace national citizenship. Yet you dressed up the reference to EU citizenship in your proclamation against Lisbon as something completely new. You did the same in terms of legal personality and other matters. On the one point of citizenship, it is contradicted by the express wording in the existing treaty.

Mr. Anthony Coughlan

With respect, Senator Regan, what I said or did not say in the treaty of Lisbon debate has nothing to do with the consideration of the committee. You misquote me. I have always said that what the Treaty of Lisbon does is make us real citizens for the first time of the new European Union which, in effect, the Treaty of Lisbon establishes, as against being honorary, symbolic or notional citizens at present. I am perfectly well aware that the EU treaty refers to us as being citizens of the Union, but this European Union does not have legal personality. It is not an entity which can have citizens. You can only have citizens of a state. The new European Union established by the Treaty of Lisbon would have all these features.

That is nonsense. It is expressly set out in the treaty.

Mr. Anthony Coughlan

It is not nonsense.

Mr. Coughlan is not here on trial. I think that is a very important point.

I come back to the role of the Referendum Commission, about which I have serious reservations. Mr. Coughlan says they did not address Lisbon treaty issues.

Mr. Anthony Coughlan

Certain issues.

Yes. Irrespective of who put out the mistruths in relation to conscription, abortion, tax and the myriad ancillary issues, who should have corrected those mistruths? If you say they are mistruths and the people are entitled to have the facts, who is the body which should correct misinformation?

Mr. Anthony Coughlan

Every decent, honest citizen has a duty to tell the truth and every organisation of honest citizens has such a duty. The prime body endowed with €5 million by the Oireachtas to tell citizens what the constitution amendment meant was the Referendum Commission. I was all in favour of it, urging that it be convened early and given plenty of resources to do a proper job. I then read the Referendum Act which provides that the Referendum Commission shall inform citizens of the significance of the constitutional amendment and its text. It did not do that. It summarised the main provisions of the Treaty of Lisbon, based, in my belief, largely on the summarised handbook which the Minister of State, Deputy Dick Roche, and his colleagues had put out. It got legal advice from A. & L. Goodbody, a body which was also advising some of the "Yes" side groups, but it did not do the job. It did not tell citizens, for example, that the Treaty of Lisbon would abolish the European Communities, would establish a legally new European Union founded on the Treaty of Lisbon.

The very first sentence of the constitutional amendment we were all asked to ratify — and will be asked again next year — states that this State may ratify the Treaty of Lisbon and be a member of the European Union established by virtue of that treaty, which is different from the European Union established by the Maastricht Treaty. There is a huge difference. The Referendum Commission did not explain this.

You would agree that the Referendum Commission should be in a position to correct facts from either side.

Mr. Anthony Coughlan

I use the term "constitutional delinquency" here because its failure to explain to citizens what the constitutional amendment really meant amounted in my submission to constitutional delinquency. We cannot really say what went on in the bowels of the Referendum Commission and I do not want to insult all the members. I think the chairman was extremely remiss and completely failed to do his duty. What arguments Emily O'Reilly, Mr. Coughlan or Ms Lane and the others might have had within the Referendum Commission I do not know. Maybe they disagreed with Mr. Justice O'Neill, as he purported to explain the constitutional amendment to citizens and was not doing the proper job. Anyone who looks at the matter will see very well — Senator Regan knows very well — that the Treaty of Lisbon gives us a new European Union, profoundly different in constitutional terms from the existing European Union. He knows very well too that the Referendum Commission completely failed to address this matter.

It is the merging of two treaties.

Do you regard it as reasonable that the major political parties — I include Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and the Labour Party and the Green Party who backed the "Yes" campaign — who represent 95% of the electorate got 50% of broadcasting time, while 5% representing the "No" campaign got the other 50% of broadcasting time?

Mr. Anthony Coughlan

That is what the Supreme Court lays down. I do regard it as reasonable because there is no congruence necessary between the fact that Fianna Fáil is the largest party in the State, and Fine Gael is the second largest party, and the views of citizens. The citizens are the voters. The citizens are the deciders. There is no basis for privileging one group of citizens rather than another.

Are they not entitled to put their view? Each of the political parties should be entitled to be on a programme articulating their view.

Mr. Anthony Coughlan

They were not precluded from putting their view.

A point about which I have been exercised for some time is that the commission should have been more proactive when misinformation was being put about. I have a very high regard for Mr. Coughlan who has worked on these issues for years and is keenly interested. We have found ourselves on opposite sides over the years. He has given these matter great thought and consideration in depth. He says that the commission must not influence people in its statements.

Mr. Anthony Coughlan

The Referendum Commission.

Yes. I suppose you meant that they should not be political or one sided. There is a huge problem about misunderstanding and people being confused. Surveys carried out during and after the event showed that people did not have the information and were confused about various subjects, including conscription. I called to a lot of houses and conscription was one of the biggest issues. Women in particular were afraid that their husband, sons or daughters would be conscripted. I attended meetings on the north side of Dublin where this was the reality and the matter was discussed. I have not any in-depth analysis of where that came from, but I certainly could understand people saying this was not true. It upset me that the Referendum Commission did not take a pro-active approach and state exactly the objective position. In that sense I was very disappointed in the commission. How do you think the commission should deal with disinformation which is not factually correct, conscription being one issue I came across? There were others, of course.

Mr. Coughlan has dealt with it and he accepts it was false.

Yes. They should be able to correct that and come forward in a proactive way to assert the objective facts. A referendum is different in that people are asked to give consideration to broad principles and developments. They must be given clear and objective facts. I looked to the European Commission office to provide factual information, but I can understand how they would be seen as being on one side. However, the objective facts should be put across. Every citizen has a right to be heard, but how exactly do you provide for that in a fair and impartial way? Every citizen cannot air his point of view on radio or television, but because there were so few organisations on the "No" side, they were repeatedly on air and could send a similar message all the time. People will in future have to keep a balance.

What exactly would you do? You say you would restore the Yes/No function to the commission. You agree that the commission should be more proactive in dealing with the objective facts if misinformation is being put about. Should not the commission clearly say in the middle of those arguments what the facts are? I felt badly about the fact that nobody who could be seen as completely independent was giving the objective facts when the disinformation was put about.

Perhaps Mr. Coughlan would respond. Then Mr. Territt might like to comment.

Mr. Anthony Coughlan

With respect to the Referendum Commission, its job is not to enter into the debate. The Oireachtas has laid down in the 1998 Referendum Act what the Referendum Commission is supposed to do. Its injunction is to draw up a statement telling citizens what the constitutional amendment and the text mean. That job was given to the Referendum Commission by the gentlemen and ladies of the Dáil and Seanad. My submission is that it substantially failed to do this by failing to draw attention to certain vital issues in the Lisbon treaty, primarily because, I suggest, its chairman knew that drawing attention to these facts would be more helpful to the "No" side than to the "Yes". That is my opinion. Its job is not to intervene in the debate. Mr. Justice O'Neill was quite remiss in intervening on two occasions, purporting to deal with two issues on taxation and, I think, abortion, and correct misstatements. He made a mess of one of his presentations. He certainly got lot of facts wrong. I can elaborate on that if you need.

Mr. Coughlan, just tone those down. There is no privilege and I do not want to get into trouble either.

Mr. Anthony Coughlan

Of course. I have made the point widely that they were remiss. In my opinion, every statement they utter should be agreed by all the commissioners, yet the chairman says this or that. His colleagues sitting beside him may not necessarily fully agree. This is quite a new departure for the Referendum Commission, something which Chief Justice Finlay, who chaired it from its inception in 1998 to 2002, never did. They were remiss in that. They could do a very good job if they actually did the job they are supposed to do. I suggest they did not, primarily because they did not explain the constitutional amendment in all its key ramifications. They explained some bits of it, but they avoided crucial elements. That was fundamentally constitutionally delinquent by the Referendum Commission as a whole.

If this committee could urge the restoration of the Yes/No function, that would mean that the principal arguments on either side were broadly reasonable. Obviously "Yes" people would not agree with the "No" ones, and vice versa. It is a matter of political judgment. It is a matter of fact whether the Treaty of Lisbon founds a new European Union or not. The Referendum Commission could say they agreed with this fact, or if they disagreed among themselves they could say they disagree. That is done elsewhere, in Denmark I understand. By restoring the Yes/No functions you would ensure that citizens got a fair presentation of the main “Yes” side arguments rooted in the treaty and the main “No” side arguments rooted in the treaty. By removing that function, you cleared the way for every misleading statement that could be made. In my opinion the principal misleading statements were made on the “Yes” side. Many “Yes” voters thought the Treaty of Lisbon would make the EU more democratic, make national parliaments more democratic, yet it removes 30 areas of legislative power from national parliaments.

That is your view.

Mr. Anthony Coughlan

It is my opinion.

It is not shared by most other people.

Members and Mr. Coughlan, we are here to consider information and how it is given to the people.

Mr. Anthony Coughlan

In my opinion, which I give as honestly and fairly as I can, the whole issue of conscription was largely due to Michael Martin, by giving it legs. He did not mean to.

You have already said that it is a myth. We go to Mr. Territt.

Could I ask Mr. Coughlan a question? If you had your way, would we be out of the European Union?

I am not going to have Mr. Coughlan respond to that.

Mr. Anthony Coughlan

Out of the Treaty of Lisbon.

I do not accept what was said about the Minister, Deputy Martin. It went around the doors in literature. We did not see it.

We are not going to argue the point. Mr. Territt might make some comments and wind up.

Mr. Martin Territt

Thank you, Chairman, for the reception this morning. There are one or two items in Mr. Coughlan's submission which as a matter of fact I do not accept. Contrary to what is suggested, the advertising campaign initiated by me in 2006 — it was only in 2006, not as suggested in the year before the 2008 Lisbon referendum — was not designed to influence voter opinion, nor to interfere in the referendum process in any shape, manner or form, just as all the other information and communication activity of the European Commission was not so designed.

The suggestion is made that the European Commission is not a party to the European Union treaties. I fully accept that, except that the European Commission is obliged under the existing treaties to form an opinion on a proposed treaty. We have done that in respect of the Lisbon treaty and we have a very positive opinion in respect of it. Because of our institutional prerogative to communicate, we are perfectly entitled under the treaties to communicate the fact that we are positively disposed towards the Lisbon treaty.

It was further suggested that in some way the European Commission is a foreign interest. I reiterate my introductory remarks that insofar as competences are conferred on the Union, Irish and European law converge. The European Commission is not a foreign interest. Its functions are clearly set out in the treaties and we do not interfere in the internal affairs of member states. We communicate within the remit we are given by the treaties.

Notwithstanding the decision of the BCC in the case in question, I do not feel constrained from advertising in the public broadcasting media, for the reasons I earlier outlined. I do not accept that the facts promulgated in those advertisements were, as suggested by Mr. Coughlan, tendentious. They speak for themselves. It is not my job to make recommendations about what the State ought to do in terms of its own referendum process. It continues to be the policy of the Commission not to interfere with that process. If it is being suggested that because of either a referendum process or an electoral process in any given member state the European Commission should not communicate at any moment in time, then I can only draw the conclusion that it is being suggested that the Commission should close up shop. At any given moment in time, there is an election of one form or another or a referendum in one of the 27 member states. I have to emphasise that the commission goes about its business on an ongoing basis without seeking to interfere with voter intentions or in referendum or electoral processes.

Thank you very much for a most interesting and stimulating meeting. We are much obliged to you.

The joint committee adjourned at 1 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 16 December 2008.
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