JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE CONSTITUTION debate -
Wednesday, 7 Oct 2009

Electoral System: Discussion.

Chairman

I welcome the delegation to our meeting. The committee is continuing its series of hearings as part of its review of the electoral system. Today we will consider the diversity of representation in the Parliament. Our Parliament is elected to represent the will of the people, but to do that it must also reflect the population from which it is drawn. Given that other nationalities make up more than 11% of the population in this country, according to the 2006 census, we must consider how those nationalities could be better represented relative to their numbers in the population. A truly representative parliament helps to inform debate, improve policy formulation, reinforce legitimacy and ultimately enhance democracy. An unrepresentative parliament alienates people from politics and also undermines democracy. That is why it is important that all demographics groups are represented in our Parliament. At today's meeting we will explore those issues with our witnesses. Their insights and experience and how, in their opinion, the system could be reformed to facilitate better representation will make a valuable contribution to our deliberations.

I welcome the delegates from the Immigrant Council of Ireland, Ms Denise Charlton, CEO, and Mr. Fidele Mutwarasibo, research and integration officer. I welcome Councillor Anna Rooney and Ms Elena Secas. I hope Ms Secas runs for election again and that she will persevere.

Members of the committee have absolute privilege but the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before it. I ask the delegates to be careful about maligning people. They should not libel anyone. I invite Ms Denise Charlton to make a presentation.

Ms Denise Charlton

My colleague, Mr. Fidele Mutwarasibo, will begin and I will contribute after him.

Mr. Fidele Mutwarasibo

It is a pleasure to be here. Obviously we welcome the opportunity to come here and make our contribution to this discussion. One of the very interesting facts on which we want to reflect is that, until this century, approximately 15% of the working population in Ireland comprised people born outside the country. Therefore, if the Parliament is representing the interests of the population, it makes sense that every taxpayer should be allowed to contribute to the debate on how taxes are used. The only way this can be done is by influencing the make-up of the Parliament.

People should not be denied a voice. If they are, it is likely they may have to use other ways to make political claims, as is evident from the occurrences in the north east of England in 2001, France in 2005 and 2007 and the United States in the 1990s following the death of a certain Rodney King in Los Angeles. The implications of such events are significant. The cost of the incidents in Los Angeles alone was €1 billion. We do not want to wait until it is too late to get people involved in the democratic process. We propose to extend the right to vote to long-term residents in the State. This applies to third-country nationals who have been granted long-term residency status and EU nationals who, after five years, are eligible to apply for permanent residency.

Although we acknowledge the right to vote is positive – Ireland is one of the few countries that allows anybody to vote in the local elections – research we commissioned a couple of years ago revealed that many people are not aware of their right to vote and stand for election in local elections. We conducted research on several communities of foreign nationals, including Nigerians, Lithuanians, Indians and Chinese and concluded that, among the Indian community, 70% were not aware of their right to vote in local elections. The figure for the Lithuanians was 30%. We therefore recommend more awareness raising among the migrant population such that they will know about their right to vote and run in local elections.

It is key to get people to participate because it would be unfair, in a way, for Members of Parliament to represent people who do not necessarily vote for them. If people are living in a country and established there, they should have the right to vote. In the United Kingdom and Australia, a number of long-term residents are allowed to vote in the national elections. Obviously, the merit of such arrangements is debated but we feel very strongly about the possibility of Ireland taking the lead, as it took the lead in respect of local elections.

Ms Denise Charlton

I thank the Chairman and members for the opportunity speak. I will follow on from my colleague's comments. We really welcome the opportunity to have an input into a discussion that recognises that a more representative Dáil is a positive phenomenon. I welcome the Chairman's opening comments.

As my colleague stated, the Immigrant Council of Ireland recommends two ways of enhancing representation. One is to extend voting rights to more established migrants. This is the way some countries have proceeded. However, there are opposing views on this in that some countries have not deemed the approach relevant. They had the discussions in the context of improving access where there is eligibility, i.e., citizenship. One difficulty in Ireland is that access to citizenship is very bureaucratic. There is a high refusal rate and high costs. If one compares and contrasts access to eligibility in Ireland with that in other countries, one will note that in Germany, for example, those who apply for citizenship and fit the criteria will be approved. In Ireland, if one is eligible to apply, one will not necessarily be approved. That there are no clear rules or access to citizenship is partly the reason we have such a high refusal rate. There is a 47% refusal rate in Ireland while the rate in Canada is 3% and that in the United Kingdom and Australia is 9%. The council suggests that if we cannot extend voting rights to long-term residents, we must overhaul our citizenship process and application criteria for approval.

Mr. Mutwarasibo referred to the research the council commissioned and stated that Indian and Lithuanian nationals were not aware of their voting rights in the local elections. The Immigrant Council of Ireland, along with many other organisations, was involved in a voter education and mobilisation programme that was facilitated by Dublin City Council. This increased voting participation by 200%. There is much to be learned from that programme and it should be extended where appropriate.

It is crucial for our organisation to address the concept of "looking after our own". This conversation and the thinking behind this debate really challenge the concept. Increasingly we hear the discourse about looking after our own, particularly in the context of the recession. Yesterday we were asked to comment on a taxi driver in Galway who put a sign on his taxi stating "Guaranteed Irish". We must challenge what this means and how it is perceived.

We now know migrants are well established in our communities and are our own and are guaranteed Irish. Therefore, we really welcome the fact that a more representative Dáil and visibility at national level would challenge the term "guaranteed Irish".

Chairman

I thank the delegates for their excellent contribution and for providing for a good start to opening up the debate. I ask Councillor Anna Rooney to contribute. I do not believe "Rooney" was her name originally. Perhaps she can explain the background.

Ms Anna Rooney

I thank the Chairman and thank the committee for affording me the opportunity to be here today. My maiden name is Ukrainian and my grandfather was from the Ukraine. I was born in Russia, raised in Georgia and am now in Ireland. My background is multicultural. My surname is now Rooney because I met my husband on the Internet in 1999. He was very determined to have a Russian wife and travelled to Russia twice before he met me. It was hard for me to get a visa to come to Ireland but in April 2000 we were eventually married.

A year before the election when I was asked to stand as a candidate, I knew little of the Irish political scene or even the number of political parties. I must compliment Integrating Ireland for raising awareness about the political scene among immigrant communities.

The supplementary register gave a great opportunity to exercise the right to vote for those not on the main register. It raised many immigrants' confidence about their presence in the Irish community. It also raised awareness about how many foreign nationals lived in certain areas. Before I was selected by Fianna Fáil as a candidate, nobody could believe there were so many foreign nationals in a town as small as Clones, County Monaghan. While only 46 foreign nationals were registered, we knew there were 200 others not on the register. The supplementary register helped many different organisations learn what can be done with various communities.

The Garda did a good job with the register in my town. However, many foreign nationals did not want to attend Garda stations to give details for the register. Next time, maybe the Garda can meet applicants in hotels or other locations. Earlier publication of the register would assist as there is much pressure on candidates during the election. There were also occasions when people's names were entered twice and I had to ring the county council to check these names. PPS numbers should be used for the register for more accurate and fair figures for each area. Every foreign national knows what a PPS number is so it would make the job easier for registering.

As a foreign national, I was seen as someone who could bring new votes to my party. However, the issue of transferring votes was a difficult one as foreign nationals had difficulty with the concept of PRSTV. Raising awareness of the electoral process among foreign nationals could help.

Approximately 41 foreign national candidates stood but only three were elected. The high number of candidates shows great interest in getting involved in politics. However, due to a lack of information and fear many more did not. It took me a long time to make my decision to run for election. There were many questions about fund-raising. Last week Integrating Ireland held a meeting with unsuccessful candidates and it was a large issue with them. Some workshops or the publication of guidelines could help in this area.

I thank the committee for the opportunity to present to it today. I thank the Irish people for giving us an opportunity to be counted in the political process.

Chairman

I call on Ms Elena Secas who also had the experience of running as a local election candidate.

Ms Elena Secas

Even though I was unsuccessful.

Chairman

You will be successful the next time.

Ms Elena Secas

I thank the committee for extending to me the invitation to make this oral submission on the electoral system. I will focus on several issues which I encountered during my recent electoral campaign which I feel are worthy of being addressed by the committee in its review and assessment of the electoral system.

A census is carried out every five years. My electoral area, Castleconnell, County Limerick, has had a huge influx of people in the past three years. When the numbers living in the area are compared to the number of elected public representatives, it could be concluded it is under-represented. The population census should be reviewed more often than every five years.

I found the register of electors was inaccurate and open to abuse. I spent much time during my campaign working with it. There are many people who continue to be registered at one address but have moved on. The process of registering should be easier if we wish more people to participate in the election process. I refer to the barriers and limited possibilities for people to get on the register or even register a change of address. Everyone living in the State has the right to vote in local elections. However, many people were put off when they had to get a register application form stamped at their local Garda station. Elements of cultural diversity may not have been understood when this measure was introduced. Many eastern Europeans will avoid going to a Garda station if they can because of their experience in their own countries. This measure should be reviewed and changed.

The rules as to who can vote in a general election are too strict. Many foreign and EU nationals have settled in Ireland. During my campaign I met many of them who have lived in Ireland for 30 years but still cannot vote in a general election even though they are allowed to vote in local elections. When I was canvassing, many people told me all politics is local. If that is the case, the rules for eligibility to vote in a general election should be reviewed.

A related issue would be the limited way people can express their vote. As the local elections were held early in June many people did not vote at all because of the simple fact that they were away on holidays. Again, if we want people to participate in the elections so that they can be as democratic as possible, the committee might consider introducing the postal vote for students who are registered, but cannot make it home because of late examinations or other obligations, for people working in different areas from where they are registered and those who are away on holidays. Such arrangements are common in many other democratic countries.

Young people are becoming more interested in politics and what is going on in their society and should be given the opportunity to vote at an earlier age. I would strongly support a reduction in the voting age from 18 to 16. I would also like to refer briefly to the PRSTV system. In my opinion this is more democratic than the first-past-the-post system, as it gives voters a chance to estimate the runners, to choose candidates between the parties and those independent of parties, which ultimately promotes inter-party electoral competition. For a candidate the PRSTV system is very hard to work as voters need to be made aware of how the electoral process functions.

Finally, I should like to refer to by-elections. It is very important to allow the people to select the person they want to fill a post or vacancy as this is fundamentally democratic. By-elections are the most appropriate way to do this.

Chairman

I thank Ms Secas for her very incisive look at the problems and everything associated with elections. I welcome Mr. Rotimi Adebari, a member of Laois County Council as well as Portlaoise Town Council. He is very welcome, and is a former Mayor of Portlaoise. I congratulate him on his success in the local elections. We very much welcome his presentation.

Mr. Rotimi Adebari

I thank the Chairman. Let me first express my apologies for being late. Perhaps this is a normal excuse, but it is not an excuse this time but rather the traffic that is at fault.

Deputy Michael Woods

We are very familiar with that.

Mr. Rotimi Adebari

I thank the committee for this opportunity, and it is nice to be here again in Leinster House. I had the opportunity of being here while mayor, as the Chairman indicated. I am going to focus on the representation of certain demographic groups in society and ancillary issues. I will be drawing on my electoral success in the 2004 and 2009 local elections and will touch on my election as the first black mayor in Ireland, and what that year meant for Portlaoise and the country at large.

I ask what the future holds for the election of members from ethnic minority backgrounds. Does the present electoral system favour participation or the election of members from ethnic backgrounds? How can we encourage the political representation of members from ethnic backgrounds? On the ancillary issues I will have an opinion on the proposed establishment of an electoral commission, improving the voting register and a reduction in the voting age from 18 to 16.

I shall begin by drawing on one of the nine basic principles of the European Union, which says:

Allowing immigrants a voice in the formulation of policies that directly affect them may result in policy that better serves immigrants and enhances their sense of belonging. Wherever possible, immigrants should become involved in all facets of the democratic process. Ways of stimulating this participation and generating mutual understanding could be reached by structured dialogue between immigrant groups and governments. Wherever possible, immigrants could even be involved in elections, the right to vote and joining political parties.

My election in the last two local elections was made possible because Ireland is one of the five countries in Europe that allows legally resident migrants to vote and stand for local elections. The four other countries that allow political participation of migrants in local elections are Denmark, Finland, Norway and Sweden. A unique aspect to Ireland allowing migrants to participate in local politics is that they do not have to be legally resident in the State for three years, as in most other countries. To be eligible to participate in local politics in Ireland, a migrant only needs to be resident in the State for no less than 12 months. This unique aspect of our electoral process I will urge this committee to keep and would add that migrants with long-term residency should be allowed to vote in general elections. At the moment, only migrants who are naturalised can vote in general elections.

I arrived in Ireland in 2000 and four years later, I was elected on to the town council and subsequently elected Mayor of Portlaoise in 2007. That year gave me an opportunity to showcase Portlaoise and the country to the whole world. During my year as mayor of the town, I granted well over 500 interviews, 75% of which were with foreign media. The interviews spanned across the continents, from Africa to Asia, Europe to North America, South America to Australia. My election as the mayor of the town put Portlaoise on the map and enhanced the country's integration profile all around the world.

Let me use this opportunity to call on the committee to ensure that the election of 2007 was not a one-off interlude for the migrant community and the country. The committee is in a position to help migrants become more politically visible both at local and national levels. After all, 10% of Ireland's population is foreign-born as is 11% of the labour force.

With the present electoral system, there is little chance for members from ethnic minority backgrounds to be elected into offices. The PRSTV system will always favour members of the majority ethnic group. One only needs to look at the 2009 local elections to see what I am talking about. The last local elections witnessed an unprecedented number of migrant candidates — never before witnessed in the history of the State. The parties explored the new communities for candidates and support. My concern is that many candidates were fielded but very few were elected. Out of 44 contestants from migrant backgrounds, fewer than five secured seats.

With the present PRSTV system, migrant candidates are never going to get enough transfers to see them through. What we saw in the last local elections will continue, with candidates from the majority ethnic group riding on the backs of migrant candidates to reach the quota and secure seats. I do not see PRSTV as a favourable option for migrants getting elected whether at local or national level.

Every candidate, whether from a majority or minority ethnic background requires a system that is simple and less complicated, in which voters cast their votes once and for all for candidates of their choice and sit back to hear the result. Speaking with people from both majority and minority groups, one conclusion we came to with the PRSTV system is that it is clumsy, time consuming and above all very expensive, not to mention the effect it has on intra-party dynamism.

The question then is what is the alternative. I do not have an answer but I am sure there are many good examples that are straightforward, less time-consuming and cheaper to run than those this committee is examining.

If we genuinely want to see active involvement of migrants in politics at local and national levels, we need to sit with migrants around the table and formulate policies that affect each and every one and give migrants a voice to play a part in moving forward a country that most have now made their home. After that, I urge the committee to consider the following in its recommendations. I suggest it ensures a migrant is among the Taoiseach's 11 nominees to the Seanad. Parties should target potential migrant candidates and give them all the needed support to secure a seat. The State should inform migrants of their political rights through an active information policy, as is done in Norway. The number of immigrants in political office has steadily increased in that country with each local election, especially in cities with a large proportion of migrants. The Norwegian Government has consistently funded projects and campaigns to boost immigrant voter turnout in the election years of 1999, 2003, 2005 and 2007. I am sure we can do the same or better.

The proposed establishment of an electoral commission is a great idea and we should go for it. The current system is great but there is much strain on the council staff who have to combine conducting elections with their statutory duties. It is time we had an independent body that would report directly to the Dáil.

There is no doubt the voting register is all over the place. This problem will be reduced if an electoral commission with sole responsibility for conducting elections and managing the electoral register is put in place. Some of the problems I found with the voting register at the moment include the following: name duplication; name no longer at the address but still in the register; dead person still on the register; thousands not on the register; and a great number of migrants not on the electoral register for many reasons. Ms Rooney was talking about her efforts in registering migrants in one particular area, and I had to do the same in Portlaoise. The people I register represent a fraction of the migrant population in Portlaoise, and that is the same story throughout the country. Some migrants do not know the electoral register exists while others wonder what is the point in registering. Some do not know they can vote or in what election they are eligible to vote. Coming here with experiences of elections in their own countries, some think their votes do not count.

To improve the voting register for the migrant community, I suggest the following. Raising awareness has to be done by producing information leaflets in different languages, using targeted media to reach out to them, such as newspapers, radio, websites, religious institutions, social gatherings and outlets, associations and clubs and so on. The other idea is to use the personal public service, PPS, number. Every migrant resident in the country has a PPS number. It is a great way of getting them on the voting register as they apply for the card. Use one stone to kill two birds. The Department of Social and Family Affairs should share information with the electoral commission which can in turn contact the person. Reduction of the voting age from 18 to 16 is another idea. I suggest that we meet in the middle and propose the minimum college age of 17. That is an age in which people can take up things on their own.

Participation in the political process is one of the most important elements of active citizenship. Political participation of immigrants provides opportunities for integration and should be supported in all its different forms. I again thank the committee for giving me the opportunity to speak today.

Chairman

I thank Councillor Adebari for his informative contribution. I welcome Dr. Gerard Hogan, who is our adviser on legal matters. He is our foremost constitutional lawyer and I will ask him to respond to contributions that have been made on our overall examination of Article 16 of the Constitution.

Dr. Gerard Hogan

Thank you, Chairman. Members will be pleased to hear that this will be a brief contribution because I have a pressing engagement at 11 a.m. and will have to leave shortly. I will just make a few quick observations on some of the legal issues that have been raised by the various contributors this morning.

We gave the right to vote in Dáil elections to British citizens since a constitutional amendment in the mid-1980s. It has occurred to me before that given that we allow British citizens to vote, that is a form of benign discrimination in favour of British citizens and is arguably a breach of treaty obligations to treat all EU citizens equally. There are various counter arguments to that but if the franchise is extended to one nationality in the EU, then arguably there is an obligation to extend it to all.

I do not need to tell this to the committee members but anybody who has been involved even tangentially in politics will be aware of the inadequacy of the electoral register. Despite efforts that have been made by many people, it is only getting marginally better. I am sure we could do something about that. It may explain what are notionally poor turnouts in elections because I suspect if we had an accurate register, the turnout figure would actually be higher than many people realise. I suspect it is made artificially lower by reason of an inadequate register.

Reducing the voting age is a matter of policy, but it is quite clear we cannot reduce the voting age without a constitutional amendment. We are empowered by the amendment in 1984 to extend the franchise to all persons who are resident here for general elections, and that is to be determined by law. Presidential elections and referenda are confined to Irish citizens, and any change in that respect would require a constitutional amendment.

I absolutely agree with the suggestion of Councillor Adebari and others that an administration — possibly the next administration, whenever that is — might take the opportunity to appoint to the Seanad somebody who must be an Irish citizen but who has come here from abroad. That would be a fine and an appropriate step to take. These are my few, paltry observations.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Hogan. I understand he must leave early and I thank him for attending.

Deputy Jim O’Keeffe

Arising from Dr. Hogan's contribution, for the first time ever I must question one angle of a point he raised in regard to the extension to UK citizens of voting rights in national elections. One of the advantages of being part of the furniture here for quite a long time is that I can recollect the debate on the change in the legislation. I have experience of quite a few cases in my constituency and I was one of those who was interested in promoting that change. However, although this matter goes back 20 years, my recollection is that the actual change we made was to extend the right to vote here to any other country that gave voting rights in its national elections to Irish citizens, and that was the legislation we introduced at the time. As it happened, the only other country that gave voting rights to Irish citizens in its national elections was the UK, which had always done so. It was for this reason UK citizens had the right to vote here.

Dr. Gerard Hogan

I will respond to that point. I fully accept Deputy O'Keeffe's rationale but if one considers the actual amendment that was passed, it is broader than that. The legislation in place at present — the Electoral Act which was passed to give effect to this change — gives us the right to do this where Irish citizens have been afforded the right to vote on a reciprocal basis. In other words, the existing legislation is reciprocal. However, we would be entitled to go further by law because Article 16.1.2° of the Constitution states:

i. All citizens, and

ii. such other persons in the State as may be determined by law,

Therefore, if the Oireachtas body was to——

Deputy Jim O’Keeffe

Where UK citizens are concerned, I did not see the position as discrimination and I still do not. In a situation where the UK allows Irish citizens resident in the UK to vote in its national elections, the reciprocal arrangement we have with the UK seems quite reasonable. If the French, for example, allowed our citizens to vote in their national elections, I would see a case for extending the same right to French people living here. I merely suggest the opportunity exists for an extension of voting rights to citizens of other countries resident here where reciprocal rights are extended to our citizens in the other country.

Chairman

We will go further on that issue at another time.

Deputy Jim O’Keeffe

This has been an interesting discussion and Dr. Hogan has opened up many areas on which we will have to reflect. I will confine myself to the issue of citizenship and my colleagues may deal with other issues.

I was well aware of the delays in citizenship applications, which are ludicrous. If the law provides that a person is entitled to apply for citizenship, it is in breach of the spirit of the law to have somebody hanging around for three or four years to have an application dealt with, which has happened. I had not realised that our refusal rate was so high. I would very much take on board the suggestion that this committee should react in its recommendations on that issue to try to ensure we have a better, more effective and more efficient system.

Going beyond citizenship, a number of the witnesses referred to the issue of extending voting rights in national elections to long-term residents. Have they developed that idea and how long term would a person have to be? Are the witnesses just making a general point? Do they know the experience of other countries in this regard?

Chairman

We shall bank the questions because time is of the essence.

Senator Alex White

I thank the contributors. I apologise that I was late and missed the first two contributions but I have a note of them here and I can check the record later to find out what was said. I heard the two final contributions and found them most interesting. They reflected the problems many people born and reared in Ireland have in terms of getting into politics and accessing funding — the issue of funding is referred to in Ms Rooney's paper — as well as of getting information and breaking into the system. This was a problem found by many and there are added difficulties for people who have come here from other countries and are not familiar with our system or familiar, at the outset in any case, with the way politics works and how one can actually get established.

I would divide the issue into two areas, one practical and the other constitutional. The practical suggestions have been very well made and are helpful. All of the issues in regard to the inadequacies and reliability of the register are most frustrating. We are very familiar with these issues and what the witnesses said earlier reinforces that and draws them to our attention once again.

I agree with the issue raised by Deputy O'Keeffe in regard to citizenship applications. I am amazed at the number of times — perhaps it is something on which we could all reflect — one meets people while canvassing who are eligible to apply for Irish citizenship but have simply decided not to do so, which of course is their absolute entitlement notwithstanding they are entitled to it and would almost certainly be given it. Cost is sometimes mentioned as an issue. I believe it was between €600 and €800 on the last occasion we——

Chairman

I am sure we can get an answer on that point.

Senator Alex White

That also seems to be an issue that we would add to the pot Deputy O'Keeffe mentioned in regard to obstacles.

Dr. Hogan has dealt with the constitutional questions. PR and the single transferable vote is an issue of huge controversy here historically. Two attempts have been made to change the Constitution in that regard and both failed. It is an issue of great interest to parties such as my own, the Labour Party, and to Independents, who would certainly need to think twice about advocating an end to the proportional representation system and the single transferable vote.

There are certainly options in regard to the size of constituencies and multi-seat constituencies — all of these issues are on the table. However, the idea of removing PR is not one I would personally agree to and I do not believe the Irish people would — they have been asked twice. The point on the voting age was touched on. It is in the Constitution and we would have to have a referendum to change it from 18 downwards.

I am a Member of the Seanad. I certainly agree with the idea that a Taoiseach should be invited to use one of his or her 11 nominees in the way that has been suggested by Dr. Hogan and perhaps some of the other speakers. However, that nomination is a discretionary one of a Taoiseach.

Perhaps this is the one area we could make progress on. In the Seanad, all Members are talking about the relevance of the Seanad, the means by which people are elected to the Seanad, the question of university representation and all of the different constituencies which many feel are quite an anachronistic at this stage given they were set up in the 1930s, some 70 years ago. Perhaps the area of the Seanad constituencies is one we could productively examine in terms of representation of immigrant communities and people who come to Ireland. It is probable that representation of particular groups in the Dáil is not something that could ever happen because it would offend against the idea of a universal franchise, but the Seanad is an area we could explore. That is perhaps an issue for another day.

Senator Eugene Regan

I thank the delegates for their interesting presentations which set out their individual experiences and the difficulties they had encountered in the political process. It was interesting to learn about the different backgrounds of the delegates and how they had made their case. Anybody involved in the political process will acknowledge it is not easy. One does not have to be from the immigrant community to encounter enormous difficulties and we all identify with the delegates in that regard. They have made various good suggestions. The issue of the difficulties and delays experienced by those involved in the naturalisation process has been consistently highlighted by the Immigrant Council of Ireland. I support the proposal for a Taoiseach's nominee and hope it will be included in the committee's report.

The question of the accuracy or otherwise of the electoral register is a perennial one. There is a fundamental flaw in how we approach this issue. I have seen the amount of work undertaken by local authorities to identify the residents in particular properties. Staff go to a lot of trouble in this regard. Databases which identify individuals and their residences must be accessible for the purpose of compiling the electoral register. Such cross-referencing is difficult because a database operated by a local authority for a particular purpose cannot be used by it for another. There must be a more rational approach in terms of access by local authorities to information contained in existing databases. Another problem is that until an individual confirms that he or she wants to be included in the register, the local authority cannot register that person, even if it is aware that he or she is living in a particular residence. What it comes down to is that there must be some obligation on residents to register either with their local authority or the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. These are the fundamental flaws in the system but they are ones which can easily be addressed via legislative changes. I presume we will discuss this issue further.

Deputy Michael Woods

I thank the delegates for their presentations. I agree that careful consideration must be given to the situation of those persons who have been in the State for a considerable period, including those who have applied for citizenship having lived and worked here for six, seven or eight years. We will follow up on the delegates' interesting suggestion in this regard.

There have certainly been improvements to the supplementary register in recent years. In the lead-up to the last local elections more people in general — not just immigrants — were aware of, and availed of, the opportunity to include their name in the register. However, there were also cases where people who had been on the register for 30 or 40 years suddenly found their names had been struck off, perhaps on the basis of incorrect information provided by a neighbour, for example. That is another issue.

There were several references to our system of proportional representation and multi-seat constituencies. It is important that the system be adequately explained to all voters. While it may be clumsy and lead to some delays, it is probably the best system from the perspective of voters because it offers them a choice. Multi-seat constituencies ensure Deputies are kept on their toes and ensure adequate representation for voters. There have been two attempts by my party to introduce changes to the electoral system with each proposal being definitively rejected by the public. People enjoy the entire electoral process, particularly the ritual of the count. It is something of a blood sport for some.

It is understandable that some immigrants may be fearful of going to their local Garda station. Even some of those who were born and reared in the State are reluctant to step inside a Garda station. This is an issue the force should examine. Its title, An Garda Síochána, translates as guardian of the peace or peacekeeper. It is important to bear that in mind. Unfortunately, the word "Síochána" seems to have vanished from some Garda vehicles, which is disappointing. We must ensure immigrants understand the proper role of the Garda Síochána. Members of the force too must understand it fully, which most do.

In regard to proposals for a reduction in voting age, Mr. Adebari's suggestion that it should be changed to 17 years seems reasonable on the basis that this is usually the age when one either enters third level, commences an apprenticeship or joins the workforce. It is important to bear in mind that a change in the voting age would require a constitutional amendment and probably have to be put forward in conjunction with some other constitutional amendments. However, as Dr. Hogan observed, there is a provision in the Constitution which allows scope for several of the suggestions to be considered without the requirement for a constitutional amendment. We will follow up that matter in our report.

I thank the delegates for their interesting contributions. We have often said the most difficult part in seeking election is to get onto the party ticket. The ferocious competition associated with that endeavour may not be evident to outsiders. I congratulate the successful delegates and wish Ms Secas good luck for the future.

Chairman

The delegates may be aware that a good deal of political action is expected in the Dáil today, kicking off at 10.30 a.m. I am sure they will understand that members wish to attend this very important business. As such, I propose that Ms Rooney focus in her response on any issues she is particularly anxious to clarify for the committee.

Ms Anna Rooney

I will begin by returning to the issue of citizenship. I have received many telephone calls from people wondering how to apply or asking why the process takes so long. Perhaps we could go back to PPS numbers. For people who are working and paying tax here, that is all recorded but if they do not have one stamp in their passport, it is of little use. A person paying tax for up to seven years and in possession of all the necessary work permits may not be able to apply for citizenship because he or she does not have a stamp. Perhaps that matter could be reviewed and linked in with taxation and the PPS number.

I agree that the proportional representation system is very good and that it is fascinating to watch the count. Many of my Irish friends came to support me during the count and we were there until 1 a.m. They also did not know much, which demonstrates that many Irish people also do not know what happens on the day of the count. Were awareness raised or were people shown how it is done, people might go down the line and put down all the numbers, which is highly important.

As for foreign nationals using that system, in my experience, I found it was very difficult to ask them to vote for so many candidates. While my party had four candidates, I encouraged people to consider that every vote would be counted. Despite this, I know that some votes for me were spoiled simply because people did not know how to do it. Consequently, there was a fear in this regard. At the same time, however, it raised awareness and it will be much better the next time around because people will know what it is all about.

On the Garda Síochána, yes it is engaged in peacekeeping and is more like a police service. Someone once told me it is a police service rather than being "police police", which is how one might describe our policemen. Basically, you would cross the road if you saw a policeman. In my experience here, one can say "hello", ask directions or talk to the gardaí about information. I must compliment the Garda which did a tremendous job in my area and throughout County Monaghan. It is a nice system in which one is not afraid to go to them. However, the mentality still works the other way around and some work could be done in this regard.

Mr. Fidele Mutwarasibo

I wish to make a number of points. The first is on how long long-term residency is. EU nationals can apply for permanent residency after five years under EU treaty rights. Third country nationals can apply after five years for long-term residency. However, after eight years they can apply for what is called leave to remain without condition as to time. Whatever form the committee chooses to take will be fine, as long as it is explained and the rationale given.

The other issue pertains to the proposed nomination to the Seanad. The national action plan against racism that ran from 2005 to 2008 mentioned consideration for a place for someone from a minority background. I appreciate that Ireland has an open system. I have the privilege of going around places and have friends and family in the diaspora in different countries and have found Ireland to be a very easy place in which to access politicians, no matter what one's status is. An asylum seeker can approach one's local councillor or local Deputy and this should not be taken for granted.

Mr. Rotimi Adebari

I wish to make a point regarding the PRSTV system. It is fun when one secures a seat and is not obliged to undergo a recount. However, it can be hard for councillors who are obliged to endure recounts when one or two votes are missing. The recount in Portlaoise lasted for almost two weeks after which one begins to ask oneself whether there is not an easier way to do this. One begins to ask whether there could be an easier way to get election results straight away. It is fun if one wins a seat. I found it to be fun in 2004 when I secured my seat immediately and I thought this was great. There has been much argument both for and against and I am aware of the two referendums that failed on this issue. I also am aware that it is a constitutional matter on which change cannot take place overnight. The system undoubtedly is unique to Ireland and very few countries use that system. Throughout Europe, I believe only two countries, namely, Ireland and Malta, do so at a national level. We can choose to keep it as long as we get elected.

On the representation in the Seanad, a Deputy mentioned that it would do no harm to have a category set apart for members of ethnic minorities. As other categories exist, it would be possible to have a category for 10% of the population, which is a sufficiently large group to have such a category. If it is difficult for the Taoiseach, assuming the decision rests with him, then it will depend on whether he considers that he must do it. If he does not wish to do it, then he will not. However, were the committee to propose that a category should be carved out for members of the ethnic communities, just as other categories exist, it will become more entrenched in the Constitution or in the system that there is such a category. I again thank members. It has been a great honour to attend.

Deputy Michael Woods

It has been repeatedly stated that the PR system gives the best opportunity to the small parties and smaller groups which otherwise would be cut off by a first-past-the-post system. However, it makes it very exciting and I have had a few such elections over the years.

Another point is that the delegates should put together a note on their views regarding the residency issue, which would be helpful to the committee. People are placed in different categories and are not counted when they have been here as students for a period and so on. As this obviously is a major issue from the delegates' perspective, they could focus on a contribution in this regard, because members also would be highly interested in it.

Chairman

To follow up on Deputy Woods's suggestion and Councillor Rooney's comments, were the delegates to liaise with the clerk to the committee and draft something for members, the joint committee then would send it to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform with all the force of the committee behind it. We would be delighted to do so if that is possible.

Ms Anna Rooney

Yes, that is possible.

Chairman

On behalf of the joint committee, I thank the delegates for their presentations and attendance. As this might be the first time that some of them have appeared before a committee, it is possible, if they wish, to get a DVD of the contribution they made through the communications group. While it might cost them a few bob, it is possible and they may wish to so do. I again thank the delegates and members.

The joint committee adjourned at 10.50 a.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 21 October 2009.