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JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE CONSTITUTION debate -
Wednesday, 17 Nov 2010

Article 15 of the Constitution - Review of the Parliamentary Power of Inquiry: Discussion

I welcome Mr. John Rogers, SC, and thank him for coming. The joint committee will continue its hearings on the review of the parliamentary power of inquiry. The nature and scope of this power and the relationship between the power to obtain evidence and safeguards for the protection of witnesses are among the issues we are examining in this review.

Members were of the view that it would be extremely relevant and helpful to obtain Mr. Rogers' insight on this matter. As a constitutional law practitioner on the practical considerations concerning the exercise of the power to inquire, he has some experience in the courts and in the Houses of the Oireachtas in respect of these matters. I am sure he has given a great deal of thought to them over the years.

Before we begin, I must inform Mr. Rogers that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. If witnesses are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I now invite Mr. Rogers to make his presentation.

Mr. John Rogers, SC

I am delighted to appear before the committee to discuss this matter and, if necessary, answer questions from members. This has been an extremely fraught subject. I am here because I was involved in a particular case wherein the issue of the capacity of the Houses of the Oireachtas to instigate committees of inquiry was challenged. I refer to the Maguire v. Ardagh case, which arose on foot of the incident at Abbeylara. The committee secretariat sent me a short series of questions which formed the basis for the note I have prepared. I did not perceive it to be my role to come before the committee to make a presentation of a constitutional treatise. The work of the committee is clearly directed to a practical question.

Perhaps one of the first issues that arises relates to the extent of the role of the Oireachtas in securing accountability. This question is fundamental in nature because when members read the note I have prepared, it will become obvious that it is my opinion that the Oireachtas can grant itself powers to conduct parliamentary investigations. Such investigations can be quite far-reaching in scope and can involve findings of fact, expressions of opinion and the making of reports. The question arises then about the extent to which the Houses of the Oireachtas might be able to engage in adjudicative findings and the making of findings of culpability. It is important to remember that the Abbeylara case concerned the activity of a committee which did not have an express statutory authority to conduct an investigation which would make findings adverse to the good names of citizens. That was the bit that was missing. The authority had not been given in the 1997 Act to do more than provide for the calling of witnesses, the immunity of witnesses, etc. It would be my contention that the Oireachtas could take a power to conduct a parliamentary inquiry.

I have noted in recent times that Members of the Oireachtas seem to think that the Abbeylara case is a sort of road block to parliamentary inquiry. I do not believe it is. The important aspect is that there must be a structure put in place for such an inquiry or inquiries. One need only look at the basic finding of the Supreme Court in Maguire v. Ardagh, that there is not an inherent power in the Oireachtas to conduct inquiries. The reliance in Abbeylara by the Oireachtas was effectively on the existence of such an inherent power because the statutory power had not been put in place.

On the first question I have addressed here, I have raised a question, with respect. The committee will see that the language used in the note sent to me refers to "parliamentary accountability functions". The first question recites that, asking whether express authorisation in the Constitution for the holding of inquiries by the Houses of the Oireachtas and exercises of their parliamentary accountability functions is necessary.

I take the view that, broadly speaking, an express constitutional authorisation is not necessary. My deductions from the result of the deliberations of the Supreme Court in Maguire v. Ardagh is that the Oireachtas has the power to give itself the authority to carry out such investigations. I use the word “probably” here guardedly because I am concerned as to the meaning the committee attaches to the expression “parliamentary accountability functions”. It is a general expression; it is not self-explanatory.

I go on to explain, although I do not really need to, that the Oireachtas is authorised to seek the accountability and to expect the accountability of the Government. Article 28 provides that the Government is responsible to Dáil Éireann. Plainly, that House has an accountability function in the doings of the Government, but does Dáil Éireann have a general accountability function?

I respectfully suggest "parliamentary accountability functions" needs definition. The reason I say this is because in Britain the constitutional theory is sort of expressed in the description of the Houses of Parliament as being the general inquisitor of the nation. If it is the purpose of this broad language to suggest that the Oireachtas has wide-ranging parliamentary accountability functions of the nature that every citizen in the land is ultimately deemed and expected to be accountable to Dáil Éireann, Seanad Éireann and the Houses of the Oireachtas, that would be such a far-reaching proposal that I suggest one would definitely need an authorisation for it.

For starters, one must determine what the Oireachtas really wants to do. Does it want to extend its remit beyond law making, beyond, in the case of the Dáil, ensuring the accountability of the Government to it? Does it want to engage rather in an extensive patrolling investigation when necessary of all sorts of events in the community and society? I would suggest that if it is the latter, that is something that would be difficult to achieve without a constitutional amendment giving an express authorisation for it.

That is the problem that I perceive in the way this committee seems to be expressing itself. I do not want the committee to be offended. I am not seeking to impugn or in any way criticise the committee for the language used, but precision of language in this area will be vital, otherwise we will get confused about what we are talking about. I would query at the outset the use of that expression, "parliamentary accountability functions", and I would suggest that it requires definition.

I suppose what I am saying is that the Oireachtas needs to determine whether it wishes to take a general jurisdiction to seek accountability in the State. If it does not wish to do that, then in my view it is entirely admissible under the present constitutional scheme of things for the Oireachtas to pass a law, either a general law such as the Tribunals of Inquiries Act 1921 which would provide for investigations in the Houses of the Oireachtas, or a specific law for each such investigation as happened with what became known as the Haughey case but which was the Committee of Public Accounts inquiry of 1970.

In the case of the fall of the Government in 1994, there was a special Bill passed. It is important to recall that. There was a special Bill passed quickly to provide for the inquiry into the fall of that Government but when one looks at the way the Bill was articulated, it did not seem to provide for any more than the presentation of the transcript of the hearings and there was not an adjudicative function attributed to that committee at that time. I will answer questions on that first question later, if the committee wishes.

The section question here is whether there ought to be restrictions on the scope of investigation by Oireachtas committees. In a sense, perhaps the best way to do this is to look backwards to see how this has worked well in the past. The Oireachtas needs to have some criteria for the circumstances in which it would initiate such an Oireachtas investigation. The criteria in the past have been whether there was a grave issue of public importance; whether there was a want of confidence in society about a great institution of State or a service of the State; and whether there was need for the application of legal investigative powers to seek out the facts. It is difficult to prescribe the restrictions at the outset; all one can do is to indicate what ought to be the criteria.

The next question was whether investigations should delve into areas of individual conduct. I mentioned here the DIRT inquiry report. It is interesting to note that there was a point in the report where the committee alluded to the role of the AIB external auditor. I will not discuss the particularity of it, but an issue was raised as to whether amnesty was granted by Revenue in respect of past liability for DIRT. The external auditor was seen to have a specific role in this because he would have to determine whether such liability was likely to have arisen. What was interesting was that the committee made findings but did not cast blame or seem to adjudicate. I invite committee members to look at that section because it is a very interesting manner of doing things. I suggest it is probably a very useful template. One can make findings without stating X did wrong and one leaves the citizen and community to make the adjudication as to whether those findings represent a wrongdoing on the part of X or Y.

It is important to not be terrified by Maguire v. Ardagh. The impression is often given that Maguire v. Ardagh ruled out forever the making of an adjudicative finding by an Oireachtas committee. I do not think this is so. The Oireachtas can take appropriate powers to conduct such an investigation and to exercise such an adjudicative role. If the Oireachtas were to do this as the general inquisitor of the nation delving into all sorts of private matters and local affairs, it would require a constitutional amendment because the role of the Oireachtas would be fundamentally changed from that of legislator to some type of general inquirer.

The issue of making findings of individual culpability becomes acute and problematic in what I would call divisive political settings. It is probably not very clear in our memory now, but the inquiry of January 1995 into the fall of the government was a very contentious event. It was extremely divided on party lines and I think that explains why it was not possible for there to be an adjudicative report. There was simply the presentation of the transcript to the Houses. I suggest there is an issue of bias or independence. If a parliamentary committee is to embark on an investigation which has powers to adjudicate and attribute culpability, it will be set at naught if it is demonstrated that those exercising the powers are not independent and come to the job with bias. It will fail because it becomes plain in such inquiries that those features of bias exist; it breaks out as it is difficult to conceal it.

The courts have evolved an understanding of the issue of the need for independence and the absence of bias to the extent they have formulated a principle of objective bias: would a reasonable person looking on believe that the adjudicator is not coming to it, or is in danger of not coming to it, with an open mind? This is not simply a question of members of a House committee stating they come to it with an open mind; that will be looked at objectively to determine whether the person being adjudicated upon could reliably believe and reasonably believe that is so and that the member is free of bias.

On that issue, would Mr. Rogers go as far as to say or even to suggest that membership of a political grouping or party would be sufficient in his view to ensure that a committee member would not bring the type of impartiality or lack of prejudice to a hearing?

Mr. John Rogers, SC

In certain circumstances, there would be a grave danger of that.

I can recollect the 1994 inquiry and it was a waste of time. We could not, because of its composition, come up with findings that would stand up.

My recollection of the advice we received was that we could not produce any findings of fact.

Mr. John Rogers, SC

I am not surprised that was the advice. One only had to look at the manner in which the hearings ensued to see that there was great division. The questioning proceeded on the basis of distinct partisan standpoints. That committee would have failed any test of objective bias and indeed seemed to demonstrate a great deal of subjective bias. That is one aspect of it.

The other aspect is I do not think the Act actually expressly gave it a power to make a report which was adjudicative. That may have been a well-done thing at the time because had there been an authority in the Act it may be that the advisers to Deputy O'Keeffe, when he was in it, may have had to say to him, "It seems to be in the Act, all right, that you can make a report", and the committee might then have decided to determine its adjudicative function by voting on the issue. This whole question of how matters are decided in such committees is really quite troublesome. Issues of procedure may be determined on a vote, may be determined on a direction of the Chairman. I distinctly remember - saving your presence, Chairman - that in the Abbeylara case, a number of rulings were made in the course of the hearing which seemed to have been made, as it was said at the time, in a room. One did not know what the process was. I think this really does give rise to problems.

Senator O'Donovan may recall the inquiry under Article 35.4 in respect of the removal of a judge. One of the really strong points of that particular inquiry was that the committee seemed to listen to all points made, had the assistance of counsel in deliberating on procedural points, and the committee then actually seems to have, in a sense, delegated to the counsel to express the rulings of the committee. The great thing about that was one could see it all happening. It had a great clarity about it.

There were two points about that inquiry that would mean it could not be a template for general parliamentary inquiries. It was a special inquiry specifically authorised under the Constitution. As a member of that inquiry I took two points from it. First, all the hearings were in private so there was no question of anybody's name being impugned through the evidence coming before the committee. Second, with due respect to Mr. Rogers, the place was crawling with lawyers, including himself, and this again results in substantial cost to the taxpayer. Our approach in this committee would be to seek a solution to the possible extension of powers of a parliamentary inquiry that would not involve significant public expense to the taxpayer.

Mr. John Rogers, SC

I will tackle that point straight up. I think there is a significant difficulty in conducting a public inquiry of an adjudicative nature where there is the prospect of a report which will affect the good name of a citizen. I have said here very clearly that witnesses or persons inquired into will have very extensive rights. They will be entitled to be represented and they will be entitled to challenge their accusers, at the very least. They will also have rights of notice of what is to be said against them and the like. It is very important to embark on this on the realistic basis that the Haughey rights are there. If there was ever a case where Haughey rights might have been diluted, it was Maguire v. Ardagh, because of the judicial restraint that one would expect with regard to any issue touching on the doings of the Houses of the Oireachtas. There was no sign of it. Throughout all of the judgments, the judges made it plain that Haughey rights must be preserved.

If I may return on that point, I presume by the Haughey rights, Mr. Rogers means giving somebody whose name might be affected, advance notice and entitlement to cross-examine, call witnesses and so on.

I will give him a more common or mundane example, which is not a special inquiry. I am also a member of the Committee of Public Accounts and we meet every Thursday. Unfortunately, on a fairly regular basis we come across incidents of the expenditure of public moneys which give rise to quite serious questions. The members of the Committee of Public Accounts feel restricted and restrained by the present situation in that it is generally not possible to express any view on attributing direct blame to any individual, even a public servant. There is even a question as to how far a general finding of the Committee of Public Accounts can be made where possibly implied blame can be attributed to a named or an identified or identifiable individual. These are the kinds of shackles and restrictions I see at the moment and not the great big public inquiries.

We interrupted Mr. Rogers's response to the various questions on the matter of bias and now we are going into the kernel of the matter which is whether an Oireachtas committee can find a person culpable in some way. A number of members are indicating their wish to participate. I ask Mr. Rogers to conclude his replies to the questions and this can be followed by dialogue with members.

I think Mr. Rogers should be given legal representation in that case when he is answering the questions. I agree with much of what Mr. Rogers has said.

Mr. John Rogers, SC

I think probably the question asked by Deputy O'Keeffe is really a very core question because-----

It is the kernel of the matter but everybody has an interest in it.

Mr. John Rogers, SC

Frankly, this morning I have not looked at the statutory or Standing Orders basis for the Committee of Public Accounts but I do not believe the Committee of Public Accounts has an adjudicative role which would entitle it to make a finding of fact touching on the good name of a citizen. If the committee requires those powers, the Deputy should consult his advisers and seek to take them.

Mr. John Rogers, SC

Yes, by legislation. All of this is manageable and the DIRT inquiry held by the Committee of Public Accounts demonstrated that it was manageable. That was a big inquiry. Taking the particular example the Deputy has given, an incident of dereliction which means public money is lost and there is a suspicion that a particular public servant or State authority has been responsible, there is no reason one could not establish a module within the committee's procedures which would start out on the basis that the committee wants to investigate this specific matter and it has the following things to say or accuse in respect of certain individuals. The committee could decide it would inquire into that, summons the people to come in, let them bring their lawyers with them, call the witness, whether the Accounting Officer, the Comptroller and Auditor General or whoever it might be, to demonstrate the possible culpability and allow the people called to answer.

What if they decline to come in? I can recollect that happening in one instance.

Mr. John Rogers, SC

The question of penalties then arises. It may become a criminal offence. The only way to deal with this is through the use of power.

Mr. John Rogers, SC

Compellability. This is provided for in the 1997 Act and the powers are there. What does not seem to exist in the Committee of Public Accounts is the adjudicative role in respect of personal culpability.

A question was asked about individual sanction and attributing personal culpability or misconduct. In the course of Maguire v. Ardagh, the current Chief Justice alluded to Watkins v. United States, an American case involving congressional inquiry. In the Watkins case, the Supreme Court of the United States demonstrated the appalling effects that public inquiry into personal belief and the like could have. The current Chief Justice indicated that the starting point with a consideration of giving such a power to a parliamentary committee is the potential devastating effects it can have on an individual citizen. One need not look too far to see where this has happened in Irish society. One may look at events that have occurred in the course of the tribunals, such as the planning inquiry, for example. While there are early findings, no findings have been made and we await them. Even without the findings, the effects on people have been devastating.

A question arises as to whether Parliament and its committees should be involved in such a process. Is it appropriate for the elected representatives of the people to ask questions and sit in judgment of citizens in respect of their personal responsibility? Is that the role of Parliament or is not Parliament a more restricted institution which makes laws with the best advice it can obtain? Does Parliament need to adjudicate?

Every nation on earth thinks so, other than us.

It is not absolutely necessary to go into the Joe McCarthy type of kangaroo trial hearings, which were outrageous.

Not at all, nothing like that, but no Parliament confines itself to a legislative role entirely.

Mr. John Rogers, SC

I do not suggest that the Houses of the Oireachtas are confined to a purely legislative role. There must be a serious question as to whether it is properly the role of elected officials to adjudicate on people. I am being asked to characterise professional misconduct and to suggest individual sanction. This gets close to the business of judging and the imposition of sanctions. If parliamentary committees are to move into that realm, I suspect they need a constitutional amendment. The imposition of sanctions is something we consider to be in the realm of the courts.

Let me go back to the point I made earlier about the way the DIRT inquiry seemed to proceed. Is it necessary to adjudicate? Are certain things not crystal clear when clear findings of fact are made? Those facts are put on the record and then it is left to the appropriate Minister to ensure the civil servant is disciplined or sacked, or it could be left to the Garda authorities to make the appropriate criminal inquiries and then bring the matter before the courts.

Was it not Judge Hardiman who said it would be disingenuous to form any view other than the fact that a parliamentary inquiry was, by definition, going to be adjudicative anyway? It would not be an inquiry if it did not intend to form conclusions, rather than just present facts as in the 1994 inquiry to which we referred earlier. That was not really an inquiry at all and that is the difficulty.

Mr. John Rogers, SC

One can stop at that point. One can give a statutory authorisation to fact finding and can stop short of permitting such a committee to make findings of culpability. That is one way to proceed. It is a matter of choice whether one wants to do that. In my view, Maguire v. Ardagh does not preclude the taking of powers to adjudicate. I do not think it can be interpreted as in any way authorising an adjudication and the suggestion of a sanction.

The question of sanctions does not arise. No parliamentary committee would issue sanctions. It is a question of being able to come up with statements of facts or findings that may impinge on the name of individuals identified or identifiable.

A number of members want to contribute and time is of the essence.

Once one gets to that stage, one must give the people legal representation because their good name is at stake. I agree it is difficult for public representatives to come to the table without a natural bias of which they need to divest themselves. Some people have done that quite successfully in inquiries, but it is an issue that arises whenever matters come to an inquiry. The issue has gone to the media at that stage and as far as the individual is concerned, once it has gone to the media, the time for a fair defence is over.

It is generally accepted that the In re Haughey principles apply to people in danger of being found culpable in any way in order that their rights are maintained.

The point is that individuals would need to have legal representation. That introduces a cost, although costs might be lower that way than going through the courts. Inquiries have been conducted without the provision of that legal representation. I have been through a couple of them and have seen what has happened. If one was not able to defend oneself and pull together all the information, one was in serious difficulty, even though one might not have been in the wrong at all. I agree it is essential that people have legal representation.

We are under time constraints and Leaders' Questions, on the issue of the economy, are due to take place. I ask members to contribute comments and perhaps Mr. Rogers can respond afterwards. Unfortunately, we do not have an hour to discuss the issues in detail.

Mr. Rogers appears to suggest that there should be limits to what can be investigated and to the directions investigations can take. If the Houses of the Oireachtas are composed of public representatives, how does one limit the public interest?

In regard to the risk of bias on the part of Members of the Oireachtas in the conduct of inquiries, it struck me as odd that an inquiry could be held into the fall of a Government. That is a matter of history, however. The question of why a Government falls is a peculiarly political question, although I accept ancillary issues also arose. The aforementioned inquiry was an instance in which the risk of bias arose immediately because the issues in contention were party political.

I am more interested in the bigger ticket issues like the conduct of banking and related financial policy over the past 10 to 15 years. I am aware that we should not stray into specific examples but this is an issue which is on everybody's minds. There has been considerable debate about the appropriate nature of an inquiry. Is Mr. Rogers arguing that if a Member of the Oireachtas was critical of the Government in respect of a particular decision on banking or budgetary policy, he or she would be biased when conducting an inquiry into banking policy? That appears to be at the other end of the spectrum in terms of the risk of bias. One would in effect argue that a politician could not set aside a political view when inquiring into the conduct of banking and budgetary policy.

I thank Mr. Rogers for his presentation. Does he suggest that it would not be possible to devise a suitable Oireachtas substitute for the Mahon tribunal because of the risks of bias and offending an individual's good name?

In regard to a committee I formerly chaired, would a judicial commission help to avoid the scenario described by Mr. Rogers? Does he believe inquiries that drag on for years can do reputational damage? If we have learned anything, it is that they are both cumbersome and ineffective. There must be a better mechanism.

I have always contended that only two public inquiries were justified over my lifetime. The first, the inquiry into the Whiddy disaster was justified because of the huge loss of life involved and it was effective and short in duration. The second was the inquiry into the Stardust disaster. I do not see merit in inquiries that cost huge amounts of money over their ten to 14 year lifetimes and which are either unable or unwilling to reach decisions. Surely, justice delayed is justice denied. If certain individuals' characters were tainted or damaged irreparably, a better mechanism should be found. Something is radically wrong with any inquiry that lasts longer than two years.

It is very helpful to get the benefit of Mr. Rogers valuable insights on these matters. He suggested that legislative change might push out the boat on parliamentary inquiries. If we proceeded along those lines, would it be safer to introduce a constitutional amendment to expressly authorise inquiries?

In regard to the spectrum of fact finding, adjudication and culpability of individuals, how far can we get by putting legislation in place? Mr. Rogers can leave aside the issue of a judicial council given that it is out of our realm of responsibility.

Mr. John Rogers, SC

I shall try to take the questions in order. Senator Boyle asked how one could limit the scope of an inquiry. In theory, if one takes a power to investigate there is no limit to its scope but, to state an obvious example, it would be extremely dangerous to engage in investigations which are local and touch on private matters. Criteria would have to be developed to guide the Oireachtas generally on the sort of matters into which inquiries ought to be held. The best I can do at the moment is to suggest the criterion of whether the matter in question is of grave public concern. Something greater than just the public interest should be at stake. As Deputy Jim O'Keeffe pointed out in regard to defective expenditure, it should be a matter that gives rise to an issue of confidence in the administration of the State because otherwise there will be demands for inquiries into areas that are completely unjustifiable.

On the question of bias, I do not think an expression of opinion about banking policy could possibly exclude a Member of the Oireachtas from engaging in the adjudicative process, provided that is all he or she did. If the Member has taken a position in regard to how the bank behaved, for example, by expressing the view that a dividend which should not have been paid was so-and-so's fault, that would be a statement of belief about a particular issue that may arise in the course of an inquiry. These issues have to be judged by reference to the events emerging. Events such as these can be very fluid and people can fall into positions of apparent objective bias. It is interesting to note the judgment of the current Chief Justice in Maguire v. Ardagh.

He referred to Mr. Cromien's affidavit. Mr. Cromien was a long-standing and respected official of the Department of Finance who had appeared before the Committee of Public Accounts. It is worth noting what Mr. Cromien said about the process of the Committee of Public Accounts, and one can read it in the law report. He effectively said that there were occasions when it behaved in a political manner dividing on a partisan basis. Politicians take that as accepted.

That is not my experience of the Committee of Public Accounts.

Mr. John Rogers, SC

It may be worth reading what Mr. Cromien said. I hope I am not misstating what he said; I may be.

It might have been in regard to a particular issue.

Mr. John Rogers, SC

Yes. Some would say that politicians, by their calling, are unable to remove themselves sufficiently from that forum of politics to be wholly objective and independent when it comes to an issue of a citizen's culpability and responsibility for some action because the politician himself or herself is being watched to see what his or her position is and whether he or she is taking a position because of his or her concern about how he or she will be perceived on the subject rather than independently dealing with the subject.

Are parliamentary investigations a good substitute for public inquiries? If one is to get into an inquiry into irregularities in a broad area of public administration and if one gives oneself the task of inquiring over an extended period of time, one is taking on an incredibility far-reaching inquiry and it would consume an Oireachtas committee for years. The best it could do would be to take a precise individual event, as has happened in the past - for example, Abbeylara - and seek to deal with that individual event.

The Commission of Inquiries Act 2004, which provides in effect for inquiry privately but with full statutory powers, is a route that the Oireachtas should as a matter of policy pursue as a means of inquiry. It happens in private. All of the inquiry is in effect a private inquiry but with full powers. Those inquiries that have ensued so far seem to have been extremely efficient, so I do not think these things have to come into the Oireachtas. I do not think politicians should urge themselves to bring them in here, partly because it has the potential to consume these Houses and getting them involved in issues into which they should not stray.

There is no doubt the tribunals have been perceived as being cumbersome. On the other hand, when one looks at the Whiddy, the blood and the Stardust inquiries, they were specific events. The difficulty with the planning inquiry seems to be that the duration of time into which the tribunal is expected to inquire is so long and the issues and particular schemes and developments which have been the subject matter of it are all so complex, one cannot be fair to people unless one gives it great time and gives them the opportunity to defend themselves.

Is it safer to have an amendment? I suppose it would be but one must question whether one would get it. I could see it as being a hugely contentious subject because one would have to seriously confront the first question I posed today, namely, what does the Oireachtas perceive as the extent of its role? It sounds like an archaic expression but grand inquisitor of the nation seems to be what it is considering when it talks about parliamentary accountability. That word "accountability" seems to extend to the point now of parliament needing to have the capacity to find fault on the part of citizens. Is that parliament's role? That is a very fundamental question and I would urge caution before one got into such a broad definition of parliamentary accountability.

I thank Mr. Rogers for coming in. The discussion has been very useful and raised more questions than have been answered. It is something with which we will deal again in the future.

The joint committee went into private session at 10.37 a.m. and adjourned at 10.45 a.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 1 December 2010.
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