JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE ENVIRONMENT, HERITAGE AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT debate -
Tuesday, 26 May 2009

Right to Vote Campaign: Discussion with National Youth Council of Ireland.

Chairman

Member may recall the request last January from the National Youth Council of Ireland to come before the joint committee to highlight its campaign to extend the right to vote to young people aged 16 and 17 years. I am delighted to welcome the National Youth Council of Ireland to today's meeting to present its campaign. I welcome the young persons on the consultation group for the campaign, Ms Maria Kelly, Ms Madeleine Carroll, Mr. Nathan Morrow-Murtagh and the officials from the National Youth Council of Ireland, Mr. James Doorley, assistant director, Ms Clodagh O'Brien, communications officer and Ms Jean-Marie Cullen, international officer.I thank them for attending.

We had agreed that the delegates from NYCI would come before the joint committee in the run up to the election, when people are more focused on election activity and this is the appropriate week to have the discussion. The format of the meeting is that we will hear brief presentations from the NYCI, which will be followed by questions and answers.

I draw the attention of the delegation to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but this privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Mr. James Doorley

On behalf of the National Youth Council of Ireland, we thank the Chairman and members of the joint committee for agreeing to allow us make this presentation today. We believe that young people aged 16 and 17 years should have the right to vote and we launched our campaign in January in the context of the local and European elections. We believe there are good reasons from a political, practical and democratic point of view that young people aged 16 and 17 should vote. The campaign is being led by our advisory group, three of whom are present. They will make a brief presentation and then we can answer questions after that.

Ms Maria Kelly

I thank the chairman for the opportunity afforded to the NYCI to make a presentation. I am a member of the National Youth Council of Ireland youth campaign group for the extension of the right to vote to those aged 16 years.

The National Youth Council of Ireland is the representative body for the national voluntary youth organisations across Ireland. We urge members who are part of the political system to change the law so that those aged 16 and 17 years are entitled to vote. As a result of the European wide movement of young people pushing for their governments to reduce the voting age to 16 years in local, national and European elections, young people from Ireland have joined their European counterparts to fight for this fundamental right. We launched the Vote at 16 — A New Age in Voting campaign and our website on 27 January outside Leinster House. There was a huge amount of media and public interest in the issue and it caused a debate among politicians, the public and young people. So far we have distributed 2,000 posters to secondary schools, youth clubs, youth cafés and youth organisations. We will continue to campaign among young people on the Bebo and Facebook sites. We have written to all politicians seeking support and the list of supporters can be found on www.voteat16.ie. We have sought a meeting with the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Gormley, and hope this will happen in the coming months. We have also written to the town and city councils seeking support.

Mr. Nathan Morrow-Murtagh

I have been asked to answer the questions as to why we should reduce the voting age to 16 years. As a council, we believe young people should have a greater say in decisions and actions that affect them and their communities. The move would be a large step in combating Ireland's low voter turnout. The Government promotes active citizenship, of which the right to vote is its most central component. The motivation to participate actively in decision-making processes is higher when there is real influence. Reducing the electoral age would motivate the younger generation to participate in democracy earlier than they do. If young people could vote at 16 years, it would force politicians to create policies answering the specific needs of young people in their constituencies. Young people can leave school, seek employment, pay taxes and be criminally convicted in most countries before reaching the voting age. If they could vote, they would be able to influence the decisions that directly impact on their everyday lives. It would also make it easier for local authorities to ensure young people were on the electoral register because the majority are still within the school system and too many fall through the cracks in the electoral register.

We are not alone in Europe in striving to reduce the voting age to 16 years. Our friends in Austria, the islands of Guernsey, Jersey and the Isle of Man and parts of Germany and Switzerland have successfully lowered the voting age to 16. In Slovenia people in employment can vote at 16 or 17. In Norway the ombudsman for children is campaigning to have the voting age lowered, while in the United Kingdom a task force has been set up by the government to look at the issue. A recent consultation revealed that 64% of correspondents wanted the voting age to be lowered to 16 years in the United Kingdom. It has also been proposed at the European Parliament at the committee of constitutional affairs.

Ms Madeleine Carroll

We thank members of the commitee for giving us the opportunity to present our views. We hope we have managed to convince members or at least inform them further about our campaign. We will continue to campaign to have the law changed in order that 16 and 17 year olds can have the opportunity to vote in local and European elections and hope the committee will support our cause. We are disappointed we cannot take part in the upcoming elections but hope for a referendum to change the Constitution to allow young people to vote in future elections.

Deputy Ciarán Cuffe

I welcome the delegation. Its members are looking for something which is very straightforward and my party and I fully support them. The Green Party has long called for the voting age to be reduced as it would make sense to do so. In my 11 years as a member of a local authority I noticed that very often young people were seen as the problem rather than part of the solution. Much of the reason for that is the fact that their voice is not heard directly through the voting process. The issues of concern to them, whether social, economic or recreational, would attract greater attention if one was allowed to vote at a lower age. It is a no-brainer. It should happen. The Green Party believes it should happen and we are working with our colleagues in government to persuade them of the benefits of lowering the voting age. Despite the adage "no taxation without representation", young people are working and pay tax but have no representation. That is unfair, unjust and denies young people their rights.

I hope there will be a meeting with the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Gormley, in the coming months. I have no doubt it would lead to discussions at Cabinet level and hope we will see the vote granted to young people at 16 years, if not younger. There is a school of thought that people should be allowed vote whenever they are ready to do so. That is an issue that deserves further investigation. There is a very concrete wish to see the voting age reduced by two years. That would make perfect sense and I hope it will happen soon.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

I welcome the delegation. It is the Labour Party's position that the voting age should be dropped to 16 years. As my party's spokesperson, I raised the matter at our recent conference and the party has endorsed that position going into the next election, whenever that takes place.

One thing that struck me was the quality of the presentation. The question is always asked why the voting age should be lowered to 16 years. The answer is very simple. The members of the delegation have answered the question by way of their own informed opinions which verify the position they take as an organisation.

The Oireachtas is running an extensive school programme for secondary students to familiarise them with what happens in the Dáil on a day-to-day basis in terms of legislation, how the Dáil works, the role of Deputies and Senators and so on. I have participated in the programme in my electoral area of Cork South-Central in many schools across the city, in Douglas, Carrigaline, Ballyphehane, Turner's Cross and the city centre. Two things strike me consistently. One is how well informed the students are about what is going on. The other is the line of questioning they take with Members of the Oireachtas afterwards. Perhaps the reason young people have become better informed is the possibility of the reintroduction of third level fees. They see a connection between politics and their future education prospects. The key in all of this is connectivity. Every public representative who sits around this table visits housing estates not only during elections but also between elections and they often hear about the absence of youth services, youth cafés and other facilities for young people. If young people had a vote at election time, these issues would be further up the priority list than they are because, ultimately, politicians respond to voters. As surely as night follows day, youth issues will be addressed when young people become voters.

The committee has also done an extensive amount of work, very much driven by the Chairman and other members, on the issue of voter registration. The point the National Youth Council has made is one with which the committee is very familiar. Northern Ireland has a very accurate voter registration system. One reason is that it is tied to the PPS system. Another is that voter registration is very much intertwined with the secondary school education process. It is part of the school curriculum for students to be included in the register of electors as soon as they turn 16 years of age. There is much sense in what the members of the delegation are saying.

Regarding the legalities, the National Youth Council points out that a constitutional referendum would be required. However, that applies only to general elections. Timing is everything; there is nothing that legally hinders people aged 16 or 17 years voting in European or local elections. It is a case of the partners in government making a decision on the matter. A constitutional referendum would not be required. I hope some real politics will come out of the meeting between the National Youth Council and the Minister and that there will be progress on the matter.

Ireland has an embracing registration process. Anybody resident in the country for more than three months is entitled to vote in local elections. I can see no reason informed 16 year olds living here full time should not have the right to vote, particularly given the changed curriculum with its CPSE programme in which politics and civil life are a major focus.

This is a major news day in the House, given the issues to be broadcast on the news today relating to a different childhood experience. Another committee is debating the setting up of NAMA to deal with banking issues. It would be wrong, however, for the issue being raised here to be lost between these stories. While they are major, the fundamental right of democracy is underpinned by the right to vote. The National Youth Council is right to campaign for the right of young people to vote. It is right that it be heard here and critical that its story is not lost among the others being published today.

Deputy Christy O’Sullivan

I welcome the delegation and thank it for its presentation. I am delighted to see young people so interested in our democracy and how it works. That they are so keen and interested ensures my support for their campaign. It is important young people are interested in politics and that we encourage them in any way we can to show that interest. It would be a gesture in the right direction to support the campaign of the National Youth Council. It is also important that we put forward younger candidates for election. We must get people interested at a young age and to do this we must encourage young people coming up the line with a lot to offer to put their names forward. Most young people now are well educated and have completed third level education. Therefore, they have a lot to offer.

As a parent with a son standing for election at a young age, I see the advantage of him being involved early. He is associated with young people and knows their concerns and through him they can get their point across much better than through somebody older. I want to see more activity in schools related to our democratic system and how it works. By bringing in people at a younger age we can encourage this. I support the National Youth Council all the way on extending the vote to younger people.

Deputy Michael Fitzpatrick

In its documentation the National Youth Council described the situation in Europe. Will it supply the committee with the background information it has on Austria, Guernsey and Jersey in order that we can see from where the council is coming and what stage these countries have reached?

I am interested to hear that young people want the vote in order that they can be involved in decision making and actions that will affect their communities. Voting is only one part of what the National Youth Council wants. Its members also want to become more involved in their communities at a younger age. Does this mean young people believe adults do not provide facilities for them in local communities such as sports grounds and clubs?

The National Youth Council suggests it knows from its work that the majority of young people are interested in local, national and global issues, but that the chief reason so many do not engage is they are disillusioned with politicians and political parties which ignore young people's issues. Will the delegation expand on what it means when it states that political parties ignore their issues?

The delegation has also indicated that lowering the eligible age to 16 years would help to stop the omission of a large number of people from the register of electors. From canvassing in recent weeks I am aware there are a good many people more than 18 years of age who have not bothered to put their names on the register. Has the delegation any ideas on addressing this matter?

How important is it for the members of the delegation as young people to have the right to vote? How seriously do they consider the fact that they are disenfranchised now and that they will be on 5 June? Does the delegation feel aggrieved?

Deputy Johnny Brady

I too compliment the delegation on its presentation. As a former active member of a youth club in my younger days I recognise the concerns of the delegation. I am easy one way or the other, to be honest. When I was first elected as a county councillor one had to be 21 years of age to vote. That was some 35 years ago. I was 21 years of age and, naturally enough, I regarded myself as young, although that is not young by today's standards. That is how things have changed.

As in the case of Deputy Lynch we visited many schools as part of a delegation from the Oireachtas. We gave a briefing and a presentation followed by a question and answer session. There is interest not only at secondary level but at primary level. It is remarkable from the questions asked to see how well briefed are young boys and girls of nine and ten years of age about politics. I outlined some of the issues to them. I spoke of the advantages of the M3 motorway. One advantage was that the M3 would take a good deal of the traffic away from the school because there was an interchange below the school. A young boy asked whether it might bring more traffic through the village because the interchange was there. That was a question from a boy only seven or eight years of age. There is no doubt they are aware and they put it up to the best of us.

My son turned 18 years of age on the last day of the old year and he will have his first vote next year. People have asked me why he does not run for election. My response was that it was out of the question because his education is more important. My concern is that young people would be forced by political parties to run for election when they turn 16 years of age. It could ruin one's education which is a concern. I am certain that concern is shared by the delegation. I do not wish to see it because one can have a long life in politics or a very short life in politics. The first election is often the easiest election, the second can be tougher and the third can be somewhat easier. Many of us have seen people who have come and gone from one election to the next. Even in the House some people talk themselves out very rapidly. When I first became a member of the House 12 years ago I was advised not to talk myself out of it but I have witnessed some people doing that. My concern is that politics should not interfere with the future education needs of young people. One must wait until one is 65 years to get a pension, so one could be without a profession and still spend 15 or 20 years in politics. These are matters about which young people should be concerned. I have no great problem with people voting at 16 or 17 years of age because such people are very well briefed and educated now compared to years ago. The education system has much improved in the past 20 or 30 years. I wish the delegation well and advise it to be careful and we will do all in our power to progress its proposals within the party.

Chairman

Do members of the delegation with to respond to comments made or do they have any observations?

Ms Madeleine Carroll

Deputy Fitzpatrick said young people would not be bothered to register if they were still in school. It is much easier to get the point across through teachers or by political parties visiting schools. It would be much easier to register at 16 rather than 18 years of age. At 18 years young people are moving to college and do not know where to register. They might be from County Monaghan, for example, but living in Dublin.

Mr. Nathan Morrow-Murtagh

As we all know, old habits die hard. If one were to be introduced to the system of registering from the age of 16 years, one would be unlikely to forget how to do it by the time one was 18. Once one is in the habit of doing something, one continues. I have no issue with registering being introduced earlier. It would make it something I would remember to do because I would be taught in school as opposed to having to learn it for myself outside it. It would be a benefit from that point of view.

Ms Maria Kelly

I support that point. We have a home-school liaison teacher in our school who is very active politically. She has given the 18-year olds their RFA1 forms to go out and vote. Those aged 15 or 17 years, for example, sixth year students, who will just miss out will not have the same as opportunity as the 18-year olds.

Chairman

I have two questions. The delegates said they had written to the local authorities and councils. Have there been many positive responses? How many did they receive?

I heard something today that I had not known to be the case, although obviously others did. The delegates should highlight this issue more than they have because I do not believe it is fully appreciated. They have stated a constitutional referendum is not required in order to change the voting age to 16 years for local and European elections. I had assumed it would require a referendum but from what the delegates have said, it seems that is only the case in respect of general elections and referenda. I spoke on a radio station today arising from the visit of the youth delegates to the committee. I said it was not the Government they would have to convince but the people by way of a referendum. I did not know at the time that it was merely a legislative matter in the case of local and European elections. The delegates should highlight this point because most people assume a referendum would be required.

As an example of how interested young people are, one of the last things I did before leaving County Laois today was to arrange for a person to go to the local secondary school, which is having a mock ballot tomorrow on the candidates in the local election. The school had asked me to send somebody to show them how to do a count with regard to proportional representation and the allocation of surpluses. The pupils are probably 16 years of age and this is the closest they will come to voting on this occasion, but they were very interested in organising a mock ballot. I remember from canvassing during the Lisbon treaty campaign that the most knowledgeable and intense debates I had on the subject were with teenagers who were more informed about what was involved in the treaty than some Members of the House.

How many replies did the delegates receive?

Mr. James Doorley

We wrote to all the city and county councils. This was done recently and many of them would not have held their monthly meetings. We received three or four replies. From memory, I know that Kerry County Council replied, as did some individual county councillors on the basis that the letter had been sent to the council. There were some replies from councillors in County Donegal. It was our first attempt and we intend to follow it up, probably after the local elections. I assume there will be some changes at local level. It is very important to get the local authorities on board.

A very valid point was made. Because we do not need a referendum in respect of local and European elections it will be easier. We will be able to convince people of the validity of allowing someone to vote at 16 years in Dáil elections or referenda if they see it is working in the case of European elections and local elections in particular. On that issue, many young people believe decisions are made over which they would like to have some influence.

Chairman

I was surprised by one point, although perhaps not by the voting age. In Bunreacht na hÉireann, the Constitution, it is stated every citizen who has reached his or her 35th birthday is eligible for election to be President. I did not realise this and was asked the question in a table quiz over Easter. I got the answer wrong. I thought a person could run for President at 21 years of age but I am now informed one must be 35. It is unanimously agreed that 60 years ago it might have been fine to set the age of the Presidential candidate at 35 years and older, but that could be reduced at this stage. It does not affect voting but it deprives a substantial number of people from putting their name forward for the Presidency.

Mr. James Doorley

There was some discussion in the NYCI about putting forward a candidate in his or her 20s for the Presidential election, even though the candidate would not be deemed valid. It would make the point that people can be successful in business, sport and in the community in their teens and 20s.

Chairman

Our Lord was only 33 years of age.

Mr. James Doorley

To add to what the members of the advisory group have said, we are quite worried about registration because in a survey we conducted earlier this year, we found that 26% of young people aged 18 to 25 were not registered to vote. Essentially, young people did not realise they had to register as they thought it happened automatically or they could not understand why they had to fill out these forms. As Mr. Morrow-Murtagh stated, voting is a habit. When one is on the register and in the habit of voting, the studies show that young people will continue to vote. However, if one is not on the register and did not vote in the previous election, and does not vote in this election, not voting becomes a habit. We know lowering the age limit to 16 and getting people on the register, as Deputy Lynch stated, means people would get a polling card and this would be a reminder to vote.

What comes up is that if more young people had the right to vote their issues would be taken into account. As stated, the National Youth Council of Ireland has written to the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Gormley, and we hope he will look at the issue further. It is a matter for the Government. We welcome the support of the members of the committee for it.

It is important to remember that until the 1970s, people had to be 21 to have the right to vote, but that was lowered to 18 in 1973. The right to vote is not set at a static age. People think 18 is the age of maturing and we accept they have reservations about lowering the voting age. However, the age has been lowered in Austria and Germany. Voter turnout in Germany increased when they introduced the vote for young people. We think there are good reasons for lowering the age of majority, but it is not a panacea. We are not saying that every young person will be excited about politics, but we think it will send a strong signal to young people that politicians and political parties are interested in them.

We are very heartened by the support of this committee and politicians for the issue. I think it is about giving more young people a say in our democracy. This committee has a broader remit, but the issue of the postal vote needs to be examined as well. It is quite hard to get a postal vote in Ireland. Young people would like to have the facility of a postal vote, and compared with other European countries our postal voting system is not as good. We are looking at issues not just from the point of view of voting, but of encouraging young people to become more involved in the community. Many are involved in youth, sporting and community organisations, but the argument is that the right to vote adds to their involvement. Young people are interested in politics but the impression created in the media is that they are apathetic. If we keep repeating that they are apathetic, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy and young people will feel they are not meant to be interested in politics.

It is important that we emphasise that 50% of young people in the 18 to 25 age cohort voted in the Lisbon treaty referendum in October. That was not too far behind the turnout for other age cohorts. It is important to say that young people are less likely to vote than other age groups but a large number vote and if we keep talking it down, it only encourages young people not to be interested in politics. We think that the right to vote at 16 would send a strong signal from the political system about involving young people in politics, making people aware that in democracy one does not always gets one's own way. It is a learning process and it is about active citizenship.

Deputy Johnny Brady

Mr. Doorley spoke about postal voting but how is he promoting it? I was canvassing the other day and learned that a wedding was being held abroad on polling day and that approximately 45 people would be attending. All candidates of all parties would be affected by something like that. Others go away on holidays and it is a pity that people who always vote cannot do so. Can Mr. Doorley give his views on that? Members of the Garda and the Army are also affected, as are older people, but their circumstances need to be known three or four months in advance. There should be a system whereby a person can notify the authorities that he or she will not be in the country. I am aware it is possible for somebody who is away on business but some people do not know that they may have to travel in six weeks' time.

Mr. James Doorley

There is a problem where people are away and want to vote. It affects young people from Tipperary, Meath or Cork who are in college in Dublin. It is possible to get a postal vote but the system is bureaucratic. One needs to get a form which needs to be stamped by the college and at the Garda station. If a person cannot vote because of his or her job the employer has to stamp it. In other European countries any person can apply for a postal vote and people do not have to go through such bureaucratic procedures. There are concerns about fraud but if other countries can do it I do not see why we have to make it so difficult. It particularly affects young people and those who have gone away and many who would normally vote will have booked holidays in January or February. I know a person from Switzerland who receives his vote in the post and in many countries between 20% and 30% of the population vote by post. Many people are also very busy and do not have time on the day to get to a polling station. Any system needs to be fraud-proof but it should be easier for people to apply.

Deputy Johnny Brady

The requirement for a form to be stamped and witnessed at a Garda station arose from people coming from the North but it is difficult for some people to go to a Garda station and some refuse to go.

Deputy Christy O’Sullivan

We have discussed postal voting on a number of occasions. People are away for a number of reasons, be it working or at college, and they want to vote where they are born and reared and where they know the candidates. They cannot see the point of voting for somebody they do not know and with whom they have no connection, even if they have a vote in the area in which they live at the time of an election. People should be encouraged to vote, whether they are young or old, and this committee should examine the matter at a later stage.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

The overriding element is as indicated by Deputies Brady, O'Sullivan and Fitzpatrick. There is a plethora of difficulties with the register of electors and how voting is conducted in Ireland. The committee has worked extensively on promoting the concept of a PPS number based registration system and the proposal made by the National Youth Council should be examined in the context of the need for overall electoral reform. Its proposal involves one aspect of that reform. However, whether one is 16 or 60 years of age, there is a fundamental problem with registration. I hope, therefore, that the key message we take away from the meeting will be that it will be part of our mission to improve voter registration and participation. That encompasses the idea that we should also broaden the base of persons who are allowed to vote and reduce the voting age to 16 years.

Chairman

There has not been too much controversy or disagreement. I thank the delegation from the National Youth Council for attending and making a simple, direct and straightforward presentation without over-complicating matters. It is true, as with all things in life, that if we keep it simple, people will be more likely to hear the message. As suggested, the committee will formally write to the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to ask that he arrange an early meeting with the National Youth Council. Individual members of the committee will also raise the issue with their own parties and our colleagues in local authorities after the elections to encourage local authorities to take the correspondence as a motion on their agendas. I again thank the delegation for attending. We appreciate their presentation.

There being no other item on the agenda, the committee will adjourn until 3.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 16 June. The select committee is expected to meet on Tuesday, 9 June, possibly for a couple of days, to consider the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2008.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

Perhaps the Chairman might give an indication because there are quite a number of amendments and we would like to give them as much time as possible over the month of June.

Chairman

If there is no guillotine or time restriction motion, it will be up to the committee. We have three days set aside, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday of the week beginning 8 June, but this is subject to confirmation. I will keep members posted.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.35 p.m. sine die.