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JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE ENVIRONMENT, TRANSPORT, CULTURE AND THE GAELTACHT debate -
Tuesday, 11 Oct 2011

Pyrite Damage: Discussion

I propose that we stay in public session to consider the topic, that is to say, the cost of restoring the structural integrity of houses damaged by the use of pyrite in building materials. We have representatives from the Pyrite Action Group, Dublin City Council and Ballymun Regeneration Limited. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I welcome our guests. We are joined by several people from the Pyrite Action Group: Mr. Peter Lewis, chairperson; Ms Sandra Lewis; Mr. Shane Farrell; and Mr. Emmett Farrell. Mr. John Tierney, Dublin city manager, is on his way. We are also joined by Mr. Philip Maguire, deputy city manager and the director of Ballymun Regeneration Limited, Mr. Dick Brady, assistant city manager with responsibility for housing, Mr. Peter Finnegan, senior structural engineer, and Ms Celine Reilly, executive manager with responsibility for the north city area for Dublin City Council and Ballymun Regeneration Limited. Mr. Derry Solan is a senior architect with Ballymun Regeneration Limited. Thank you all for your attendance.

I draw the witnesses' attention to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in respect of a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Before I call on witnesses to speak I will make some preliminary comments. This is an important issue. People's homes are their most basic possession and they have been seriously undermined financially and structurally by the use of pyrite building materials. This issue requires urgent remedy, and agreement on how to achieve this is essential. This is why I and other members of the committee are disappointed and surprised that HomeBond, which was invited to attend this meeting, has declined to do so. Earlier, in the private session of the meeting, the committee agreed to read into the public record of the meeting the response from HomeBond to the committee's invitation. Accordingly I will now read the correspondence, which arrived on 4 October. It was headed "Invitation to Public Session in Leinster House on 11 October 2011" and it is addressed to Mr. Lynch. It is obvious that I am not Mr. Lynch but I am deputising:

I refer to your letter of 8 ult. and confirm that the Board of HomeBond has considered your request that representatives from HomeBond address members of the Committee in Public Session on the topic of ‘The cost of restoring the structural integrity of houses damaged by the use of Pyrite in building materials'.

You will be aware that HomeBond has examined its liability under the terms and conditions of the HomeBond Agreement for damage arising from heave of the concrete ground floor in dwellings, taking into consideration legal opinion, expert technical advice and the decision of Mr Justice Charleton delivered on 25 May 2011 ("the Decision") in the case of James Elliott Construction Limited ("Elliott Construction") v. Irish Asphalt Limited ("Irish Asphalt") High Court Record No. 4767P/2008 ("the Case").

We confirm that it is our view that as:

(a) the quarry supplier of the hardcore infill acted negligently in our view in supplying material that was not of merchantable quality and fit for purpose; and

(b) supplied a defective product in circumstances where legislation provides for compensation;

HomeBond's liability for Major Defects is specifically excluded.

I wish to advise you that representatives from HomeBond met with Minister Phil Hogan T.D. on 31 August 2011, and arising from that meeting HomeBond agreed to part-take in a Working Group to be commissioned by the Minister to investigate the pyrite issue.

In light of the fact that HomeBond has agreed to part-take in the proposed Working Group, I confirm that HomeBond declines your request to address the Committee in Public Session on 11 October 2011.

The letter is signed by Conor Taaffe. I suggest that we write to the Minister and complain about the refusal of HomeBond because it is important we make the connection given that the company has agreed to go on the working group. Is that agreed?

If I could-----

Several people are offering. Is it about this topic?

It is about the HomeBond letter.

It was discussed earlier but I will proceed provided there are only quick comments.

The response from HomeBond is appalling. I recognise that the company has a role and it has indicated it has such a role if it is prepared to be on the working group. However, it is an affront to the democracy of the State if HomeBond, given the unique position it holds, has refused an invitation to come before our committee, whether in private or public session. Regardless of going back to the Minister, the chairperson should send a most direct letter to them. If the company fails to respond to our invitation, a new committee of the House has been established which, I believe, could give this committee the powers to compel the company to come before this committee. I suggest that we invoke that provision in the event of HomeBond not acceding to our request. We should send a direction to the oversight committee at the next available opportunity seeking the powers to compel the company to come before us.

I support that proposal. In recent years HomeBond has been central to the concerns of everyone in this room with regard to this matter but the company has walked away like everyone else. I back Deputy Dooley's call.

I agree. Based on the letter the Acting Chairman read out, it seems the company is scurrilously hiding behind legal argument on this matter. The issue of our work as a committee and the invitation extended to HomeBond to participate in the working group should not be confused. That should not be used as a veil behind which to hide.

We will vote in a referendum at the end of this month on the compellability of witnesses and to ensure we have sufficient powers to hold inquiries in respect of the finding of fact against individuals or organisations. I do not want to pre-empt the outcome of the referendum but there is a clear absence in regard to this examination. People affected by the issue and Ballymun Regeneration Limited are here but not HomeBond. There is something missing.

The sense of outrage is understood. I will ask two more members to speak. We will then move on to the presentations because everyone shares that sense of outrage.

It is not good enough that HomeBond can opt out. We must make representations to get it to appear before the committee. We must hear its reasons. It is not good enough for it to stand behind legal arguments. Court cases are outstanding but we should compel it in some way to appear before the committee. We should not accept that excuse.

The committee should send a unanimous letter tomorrow along with the one to the Minister. Let us hear the people who have been waiting for more than an hour.

I invite Mr. Peter Lewis to make a presentation on behalf of the Pyrite Action Group.

Mr. Peter Lewis

We are delighted to be here to highlight the serious situation involving pyrite, about which many members know, and the effect it is having on many home owners. The devastation felt by those we represent is unbelievable. We speak to them daily and take telephone calls late at night from people almost in tears about their situation. This cannot go on any longer.

I am chairperson of the Pyrite Action Group and I am also a homeowner with an apartment which is severely affected. I am accompanied by my wife, Sandra, who is also on the committee and by Shane Farrell, a home owner who has been through a long, arduous and quite dreadful process with HomeBond in regard to the repair of his property. He has come out the other end, so he will be delighted to comment on his experience. I am also accompanied by Mr. Emmett Farrell, a chartered engineer, who has been doing some research into this area for us and who will assist us with some of the technical questions members may wish to ask. Members will have received packs, so they will have some information. I hope they have had a chance to read the information we sent out, which is a longer version of our presentation today.

The Pyrite Action Group is a cross-community group with members from north and west Dublin, Offaly, Meath and Kildare. We are also well aware that the situation is far more extensive. Many people who have not yet engaged with our group may not be aware of the difficulties they face. They may be putting things down to settlement cracks and so forth. This is a monster issue.

We are looking for support and I welcome the committee's comments in regard to HomeBond. Many of us have experienced these difficulties. Again, I welcome the committee's comments and support in pursuing HomeBond to become engaged in this process.

I will talk about pyrite and the effect on homes as some members may not be so up to date in regard to pyrite and its effect. We will talk about the historical background, the knowledge available, the pyrite crisis in Ireland, the parties involved in the process, why we believe this is not a civil issue, as mentioned by the Taoiseach, Deputy Kenny, and the Minister, Deputy Hogan, and some of the expectations and goals we have. We will finish by talking about some of the aspects of the human tragedy which our home owners face.

I would like to play a piece by Paul Murphy on pyrite from "Prime Time" broadcast on 24 February.

The joint committee viewed an audio-visual presentation.

Mr. Peter Lewis

That is by way of explanation of the issues faced by home owners. It is a very expensive problem. Prices quoted to home owners range from €40,000 to €90,000, depending on the size of the property. It is not within the remit of any home owner to come up with those funds in the difficult times in which we find ourselves, yet that is what home owners are faced with.

I wish to show members some pictures sent to us by home owners showing the main effects of pyrite on people's homes. I hope members can make out the bulging of the walls. I believe a television set was pushed away from a locker. The bulging and cracking of walls is a key issue, as is cracking floor slabs which lead to cracking tiles. Some people have said they cannot walk around their houses because of broken tiles and broken floor slabs. Coving is broken up and there is cracking above doors, windows and wall junctions. It is pretty horrific stuff. Quite worryingly, there is cracking in outer walls. People talk about the effect on structural walls but we are looking at the outer walls and the difficulties there because of that. It is an astounding process with which individuals must live day to day.

We have also seen situations where staircases have moved away from walls. I received a photograph yesterday from a person who had to take off the plasterboard from the side of the stairs because it was warping so much that the engineer said the person's six year old child could be in danger as the plasterboard was in danger of falling off and hitting the child. We are hearing some horrific stories.

To add to the dangers and issues we face, this bulging or heaving process we see is not the only process at work. It is not the only issue we face. Sulphates are produced within the infill which are having a direct effect on the structural walls in properties. It may occur over a longer period but the effect of these sulphates is that they begin to eat into and crumble concrete, thereby affecting the structural walls. Some people view these cracks as somewhat cosmetic, but they are major issues which could have serious consequences in the long term for the structure of a property. That needs to be addressed.

To contextualise the pyrite issue, this is not a new phenomena or unique to Ireland, nor has it just surfaced in Ireland. It has appeared in the US, the UK and Canada. Swelling rocks appeared in the US in the 1930s. Throughout the 1970s, properties in Canada were affected. It is reported that medical centres rose by 76 millimetres as a result of the pyrite induced heave, which is phenomenal. There is also the case of the Bell Canada building in Ottowa. In Canada, a committee was set up in 1997 to examine the pyrite issue. A television station did an exposé which revealed that 1,000 properties were affected by pyrite. In 1998 the Government of Quebec put in place a system of funding to repair these properties to livable standards. In the United Kingdom problems with a number of properties were reported in Teeside in 1978 and a wing of the Louise Landau Medical Centre in Cardiff rose by 60 mm between the 1930s and the 1980s. From that perspective, this issue has been ongoing for some time and information on it has been available to the industry.

It is estimated that the pyrite crisis in Ireland potentially affects 20,000 homes. In consultation with engineers, an examination of the level of aggregate sold by quarries which is believed to be in the order of 40 million cu. m suggests the number of affected properties could be as high as 50,000 or 60,000. The quarries from which the material aggregate has been taken tend to sit on the Tober Colleen formation, a horseshoe shaped rock formation stretching from Rush, through north Dublin, east Meath and north Kildare to Edenderry, County Offaly.

The fees for rectifying and repairing houses are between €40,000 and €90,000. People have incurred legal costs amounting to tens of thousands of euro in pursuing quarries or builders. These sums are not within the means of the average homeowner. The 2010 case taken by Menolly Homes against Lagan Group Irish Asphalt did not result in a decision on legal liability, although a fund was put in place as a result. In a case taken this year by James Elliott Construction against the Lagan Group, the latter was deemed liable. As previously noted, HomeBond has denied primary liability for pyrite claims on the basis of this judgment. An appeal is possible, but we will wait to see what happens.

The pyrite action group was formed in May and we are delighted to be invited to address the joint committee. Yesterday we were formally invited to engage with the pyrite panel group, the task force established to address the issue. We welcome the actions of the task force, the joint committee and the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government.

Builders and developers are not the only parties to this process. We must also deal with the insurance companies behind them. We are looking to access all of the funds available through insurers, as well as the companies concerned. A number of builders and developers are in liquidation, receivership or NAMA. We are also looking for redress from quarries and their insurers for selling material that was not fit for purpose. The James Elliott Construction ruling referred to the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act 1980.

We also look to structural insurers such as HomeBond. From the perspective of homeowners, HomeBond's policies covered major structural defects as set out in the literature received from the company. Given that the pyrite defects are major and structural, homeowners ask why they cannot receive compensation. They believe they were mis-sold cover and that they had little choice in accepting it because lending institutions required it as a precondition to offering mortgages. Arrangements were agreed between HomeBond and the construction companies before anybody even bought a property. There is great frustration and anger about the delays in dealing with the company. It can take months to receive a response to telephone calls, for example. In 2000 the Law Society issued a warning about HomeBond's limited liability and questioned the underinsured nature of its work. It asked that the warning be communicated to all homeowners by lawyers. It does not appear this warning was passed on. In 2003 Deputy Emmet Stagg raised in the Dáil the question of whether HomeBond was underinsured.

Lending institutions are heavily involved in the problem because they continue to own the assets until such time as we finish our mortgage repayments. It is unacceptable for them to stand aside and leave homeowners to fight to have their properties repaired. They have even pursued homeowners for mortgage repayments on these properties. People who are living month to month and desperately trying to meet their mortgage repayments are receiving little support from their lenders. Local authorities also have a responsibility, given their role as building regulation enforcement authorities. The individual engineers, architects and surveyors who were engaged by the various agencies and companies should also have been aware of this issue in order to communicate it to their employers.

On whether this is a civil issue or one in which the Government should be involved, successive Governments let go of the reins of building regulations by allowing self-regulation within the industry. This is one of the major reasons we are currently experiencing problems. There is, therefore, an onus on the Government in this regard. Deputy Terence Flanagan put a question to the then Minister of State at the then Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, former Deputy Michael Finneran, regarding the relationship between his Department and HomeBond. The response implies that the Department received payments in return for providing inspection services for HomeBond as an agency.

The pyrite action group wants the Government to accept that dealing with the pyrite problem is not a civil matter. We want our homes to be fixed in order that we can return to the normal lives we expected to have when we moved into them. We want the Government to take a lead, in which regard we welcome the establishment of the independent working group. The Government should use its legal clout to compel organisations such as HomeBond to divulge information to the independent working group with a view to reaching a resolution. The Government could challenge HomeBond in the courts on behalf of homeowners, many of whom are not in a financial position to pursue a legal case. We also have a strong belief that any system put in place to facilitate the rebuilding and repairing of the many properties affected will fit in well with the Government's retrofitting scheme and provide employment for construction workers. It could be a very positive move.

We ask the joint committee to prioritise this matter and make it a major issue. This could be taken on as one of the key projects the committee is driving forward. I ask members to be our representatives and champions in this process. They should not allow individual home owners to be bullied by organisations. We want the committee to assist us in seeing this process through to a successful resolution. It is obvious that it should engage, where necessary, with the task force in place. Perhaps it might even function as a watchdog, in some respects, by helping us to oversee the work of the independent working group.

We do not want HomeBond to wash its hands of the problem. We would like it to change its legal position and make available the information it has on builders, developers, quarries and insurers. We normally have to spend lots of money on legal fees in order to access the information available. We want HomeBond to be compelled to make that information available to those who need it, including the members of the working group.

We were delighted to be asked to engage with the working group and we want its work to be done in a short timeframe. It has been indicated to us that a report will be forthcoming early in the new year. We also want the group to have the necessary power to compel organisations, individuals and agencies to become involved in the process. As I said, we want them to be compelled to provide the information they hold.

We would like builders, quarries and developers to face up to their responsibilities. We want their insurers to link up and take responsibility. We want them to engage with homeowners, even if they are out of business. We want them to show they are actually working towards this end. We want them to provide funding for repairs, where possible.

On testing for pyrite, we want testing standards to be agreed and pricing processes put in place. Perhaps the working group or the Government might put a system in place to ensure individuals will have testing carried out, where necessary. They should know whether they actually need to carry out testing. People are wondering whether they should spend €2,000, €3,000 or €4,000 on testing if there is a chance that someone will subsequently tell them it was accepted all along that the development had pyrite and testing was, therefore, not needed. We want this to be agreed and in place.

In the case of developers and builders who are with receivers or liquidators, or part of NAMA, we want homeowners to be prioritised above other creditors. There should be an investigation of the possibility of allocating funds to homeowners rather than using them to repay other creditors. We want banks and other lending institutions to increase their awareness of this problem and take their share of the responsibility and burden for it. It has been suggested funding should be made available to homeowners to enable them to rebuild their properties. In such circumstances, the banks could legally pursue the various organisations and parties involved.

We also want clarification from insurance providers. We would like the insurance regulators and the Irish Insurance Federation to investigate the developing insurance issues. Some people's claims have been heightened or increased as a result of pyrite. It has been suggested insurance companies are refusing to offer house insurance to people whose properties have been certified as not being pyrite-free. This is massively discriminatory and we want the matter to be investigated. We also want a health and safety assessment to be carried out. We want a full investigation. I mentioned previously the dangers a potential sulphate attack can have for concrete and the structural walls within properties.

We also want the broader issue of structural damage to be investigated and to look at the issue of fire safety. Individuals have commented on the sticking of doors that occurs as a result of pyrite heave. One woman was trapped in her room for many hours until someone came home and let her out. That is significantly dangerous and cannot be accepted. We want a full health and safety study. We are also concerned about issues regarding the warping of gas pipes, etc., as a result of pyrite heave. Obviously, pipes can come through areas experiencing pyrite heave. There is, therefore, a danger that pipes can break, plaster board can fall and electrical wiring can be damaged. A number of images depicting the effects of pyrite heave are contained in the document received by members of the committee. The document also contains a couple of pages of direct quotes from homeowners. This will give members an idea of the human element of this devastating experience.

We welcome the committee's invitation to share our ideas, thoughts, concerns and expectations. We thank members for giving this most serious and critical problem the attention it needs and deserves. We will be delighted to answer any questions at the appropriate time.

I thank Mr. Lewis for the action group's opening statement.

Mr. John Tierney

There is no point in reading the introduction section of our document because Mr. Lewis covered much of its content in his explanation. Perhaps I will ask Mr. Finnegan to refer to the Dublin City Council projects affected and Mr. Maguire to speak about the Ballymun regeneration project.

Mr. Peter Finnegan

I propose to talk about the problems being caused by the presence of pyrite in Dublin City Council housing projects. The presence of pyrite in Dublin was first confirmed in mid-2008 in the Avila Park housing scheme for Travellers in Finglas. Phase 4 of the development which consisted of six houses and a community centre and was completed in 2005 exhibited unusual defects within a year of its completion. These defects initially consisted of plaster cracking and spalling, then progressive cracking above window heads in external walls. Following investigation, the defects were eventually attributed to excessive pyrite in imported stone fill. An example of the cracking can be seen in the documentation furnished to the joint committee.

In 2008 Dublin City Council engineers investigating a leaning wall in the Griffith Heights housing development in Finglas noticed that footpaths in the development displayed similar defects to the footpaths in Avila Park and confirmed the presence of excessive levels of pyrite in the stone fill. Sampling of stone in the houses revealed similar levels of pyrite, although the progression of damage has been slow compared to the Avila Park houses. A photograph in the briefing material shows a leaning wall and a door that has been sticking. The Griffith Heights development consists of 35 affordable houses, 15 social houses, and 33 senior citizens apartments in several blocks. Footpaths in the development have exhibited heave in excess of 35 mm. Building damage has been slight to date, although we are seeing some of the problems alluded to by Mr. Lewis.

The findings in Avila Park and Griffith Heights prompted a review of recently built Dublin City Council housing stock. The review was carried out by staff from the housing department using year of construction, location and observable defects as indicators of possible problems. In June 2009 the presence of excessive levels of pyrite in stone fill was confirmed in the Clancarthy Court senior citizens development in Donnycarney. The development consists of 20 senior citizens flats in three two-storey blocks. Defects had been observed within 18 months of completion but were not attributed to pyrite until stone samples were taken in 2009. Structural damage in this development was significant, with floor heave in excess of 40 mm. A photograph in the documentation shows a counter top confined by wall tiles having been badly heaved by the floor.

Sampling of stone and testing are expensive and disruptive to occupants. A further development in Ballybough has been confirmed to have excessive levels of pyrite. The development consists of 69 new units, although the extent of the problem is not yet known. Investigations at this location are ongoing.

All confirmed instances of pyrite are located on the north side of the city. All of the affected developments were constructed by contractors on behalf of Dublin City Council. Defects arising in a development, whether related to pyrite or otherwise, are dealt with under the provisions of the particular contract. The resolution of these issues is complex and involves mediation. Confidentiality is generally required. All developments with confirmed pyrite problems are constantly monitored by housing department staff and the safety of occupants is of paramount importance.

While the manifestation of damage in pyrite affected houses does not usually cause safety concerns, it has been considered necessary to demolish two walls at Griffith Heights with excessive lean. In addition, the Avila Park houses were de-tenanted owing to the rapid progression of damage which included insecure ceilings in one house. Tenders have been received for the repair of these houses, with an anticipated site start this month. The tender price is approximately €663,000, including VAT. Dublin City Council has entered into a mediation process under the contract with the contractor for the Griffith Heights development in an attempt to have the remediation works carried out without recourse to expensive legal action. Remedial works to the Clancarthy Court development commenced in May 2011 and it is expected these will be completed by January 2012. The estimated all-in cost is approximately €700,000. The Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government granted approval to these works at Clancarthy Court as the contractor went into liquidation shortly after the development was completed. Dublin City Council has retained experts in the area of geotechnics and ground chemistry to advise on pyrite related issues, including remediation. The remedial works at Clancarthy Court have proved successful to date and similar results are expected in Avila Park.

I will hand over to Mr. Philip Maguire, deputy city manager, to talk about Ballymun Regeneration Limited.

Mr. Philip Maguire

The first problems with pyrite for Ballymun Regeneration Limited, BRL, arose in a building known as the Reco building, a community, youth and child care facility in Ballymun. The contractor was JEC Limited, which fixed apparent snags which, when they recurred, were further investigated. Cores were drilled and samples taken and, following scientific chemical analysis, the abundant presence of pyrite was confirmed. The contractor arranged for the removal and replacement of all the aggregate under the floors, which required removal of kitchens, doors, stairs, sanitary ware and internal stud walls, as well as cutting the concrete floor slab into 600 mm by 600 mm sections, thus removing the full slab and allowing the removal and replacement of the pyrite material. The fixing of all cracks, the replacement of stairs, fixtures and fittings and the redecoration of the building was then completed. Work was done on footpaths and filling around the services within the curtilage of the building, and the removal of hard core from the entire courtyard required similar remedial works. The building needed to be vacated while all of this work was taking place.

The source of the stone material was known and proven to be a quarry at Bay Lane, near Blanchardstown, operated by Irish Asphalt, part of the Lagan Group of companies. The contractor, JEC Limited, which fixed the Reco building at its own expense, took proceedings against Irish Asphalt for full recovery of costs and expense. The case lasted 58 days in the High Court. Another pyrite case involving Menolly Homes was eventually settled after 159 days in the High Court. Mr. Justice Charleton found fully for the contractor. However, the quarry operator has applied for permission to appeal the decision to the Supreme Court - I understand the case will come up at the end of this month - and for a stay on payment of interim damages of €1 million and €500,000 in costs, which was the interim award pending the outcome of the Supreme Court hearing. The quarry company also lodged affidavits with the High Court in July 2011 asserting it has no unencumbered assets and is, therefore, not in a position to pay either damages or costs. The quarry also states in an affidavit that it has made a deal with its insurers in the Menolly case in full and final settlement, and its insurance cover is, therefore, exhausted.

In the meantime, three other BRL projects have turned out to have pyrite problems - Sillogue 4, with 124 units not yet occupied, Carton Terrace, with 94 units occupied, and Owensilla, with 58 units occupied. The Sillogue 4 contractor is JEC Limited, the same contractor who worked on the Reco building. The other two projects were built by a different contractor. All are either wholly or partly affected by pyrite from the Bay Lane quarry.

BRL, with the contractor JEC Limited, is arranging to carry out remedial works on Sillogue 4 which have direct costs of €10.5 million. Tests are continuing to be carried out on the other two sites but it seems certain from the results of initial tests that at least some of these houses have a problem with pyrite. BRL and Dublin City Council are keeping residents informed. Remedial works will be necessary in all affected houses. BRL is evaluating its legal position with a view to litigation against Irish Asphalt, the Lagan Group of companies and their insurers. A decision is imminent.

I remind members that we cannot discuss any issue that is before the courts. I call Deputy Ellis.

I thank the witnesses for the presentations. This is a huge problem which we encounter. It is estimated there are probably well in excess of 20,000 houses affected and close to 300 of those are in Dublin North-West alone. We have not seen the end of this; it is only the beginning.

I first encountered this problem not long after the houses were built in Avila Park in 2005 when severe problems were discovered. I contacted the engineers in Dublin City Council and over a period, up to 2008, we diagnosed the problem as being pyrite, although it was always obvious it was something more than just shifting cracks. Since then, we have encountered a large number of areas in the north west of the city, taking in Santry, Ballymun and Finglas, involving some 300 and perhaps more houses.

There is currently a serious situation. We know a court case is pending and the quarry and the contractors are fighting it out. At present, there is a decision in favour of the contractor but that is going to the Supreme Court, and the outcome of that case will be very important. Considering this and the work of the review group, there is an onus on the Government to make moves in this regard. I appeal to the review group to press the Minister to put forward money for this. Huge issues of health and safety arise, as we have heard. The condition of some of the houses I have seen is appalling, so it is extremely urgent this matter is dealt with.

Dublin City Council has at this time probably the most experienced and best experts available because they have been working on this from an early stage. Their expertise should be made available to the committee to outline what they have found and how they view the problems. All the issues of health and safety should be compiled and their effects noted. Not only have we people in negative equity, we also have some whose houses have pyrite problems. It is a disaster. I urge the committee to put forward a very strong report to the Minister in this regard.

I am conscious of the amount of time and effort home owners have put into this situation. It would be completely wrong of us not to come out with something meaningful to move this forward. I wish to ask some questions to try to advance the position and get more information.

It strikes me that what has been said by the Minister and the Taoiseach in part leans on the court case to suggest this is a civil matter and nothing to do with the Government. However, it seems that what has taken place at Dublin City Council level is, in fact, a case of the State leading, and the evidence of the witnesses suggests the council has taken a lead and its starting point is to get the works done. Where the council has put this to the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government in instances where the contractor went bust, the Department has come up with the funding for that and, presumably, it is trying to chase that money in a different way.

If this can be done for one or more developments, what is the difference between Dublin City Council, as the owner in this instance, and the State stepping in versus any one of these individual householders? Did I understand correctly that this is the system in place? Given the extent of the organisations and parties involved in this issue, to see anyone other than the State taking a lead and getting it resolved seems totally impractical.

What level of co-operation has there been between the different local authorities in the areas affected? I bow to the comment that Dublin City Council, out of sheer misfortune, is now the lead authority in this regard, but its neighbours are not too far behind in terms of the scale of the problem. What level of dialogue and investigation has taken place to ascertain the level of responsibility and the scale of the problem?

Can we come back in at a later stage, Acting Chairman?

Many members are offering. We might get answers to those questions first and I will then take groups of questions together to try to get through the discussion quite quickly.

Mr. John Tierney

I do not believe there is a question from Deputy Ellis to which I should respond, except perhaps in respect of working with the joint committee and obviously we are happy to do that. As for the questions from Deputy Clare Daly, the difference in the position is that, in effect, the properties with which we are dealing are properties of the State. The State has spent so much on an asset and more money must now be spent on that asset to bring it into use. Obviously, there are cases in which we are trying to get the money back. We have given evidence on that and this will continue to be the case. In respect of dealing with Fingal County Council, we have had meetings with it but each issue must be dealt with individually as a defect under the contract and, consequently, each case obviously must be dealt with separately.

While I meant all the local authorities in the areas affected, is it not the case that Dublin City Council's affordable houses, which presumably are privately owned, are also being covered?

Mr. Peter Finnegan

The peculiarity in the case of the affordable houses at Griffith Heights is that Dublin City Council was the developer. It developed the 35 affordable houses there and consequently our role there is different than it would be with the swathes of affordable houses. The council was the developer and we developed 35 affordable houses, as well as 15 social and senior citizens' housing units and are pursuing that under the contract. No remediation work has happened there yet. On the question of the remaining affordable houses, of which there are many, in many cases we were not the developer.

Yes but they are private property. They are not State property.

Mr. Peter Finnegan

No, they are not State property.

Mr. John Tierney

Members should be aware we must be careful about commenting on some situations because we could be involved in litigation concerning them.

I wish to make a couple of comments and perhaps will ask a question at the end. To take up the point made by Mr. Tierney about being in litigation, the evidence provided by Mr. Peter Lewis revealed that this matter has been before the courts for approximately 220 days. It appears the only people making any money out of this at present are in the legal profession. Rapid progress must be made with the review group and one must try to get out of the courts. This must be examined as an industry-wide problem.

If 20,000 houses are affected and if one takes a conservative estimate of a cost of approximately €50,000 per house to carry out the remediation work, the scale of the crisis is in the order of €1 billion. One could toss that around the courts forever and a day, while going from the High Court to the Supreme Court, but everyone knows that in the present climate, the developers, quarry owners and anyone involved ultimately will not be in a position to pay. Ultimately, these companies will go broke, will be wound up or will move on and the witnesses will be left in the same situation.

A phenomenal amount of money has been wasted to date in engaging in the legal process and the same point applies to Dublin City Council. I recognise its role and what it had to do to protect the assets of the State and it is right. However, if one recognises there is nothing on the other end, it seems like a futile exercise to continue the propagation of a legal case the only beneficiaries of which will be legal practitioners. The sooner the Government takes control of this issue the better as I understand has happened in Canada and other jurisdictions.

One should recognise the scale of the problem is so great the only way it will be resolved will be through State intervention, rather than kicking it on for another two or three years with everyone spending a colossal amount of money and with the witnesses still left in the appalling position they have described and with which I am familiar from other contacts. It is somewhat like the banking crisis, where there was a requirement for the State to move in. I was a member of a party that was in government and which was obliged to take that difficult decision and to suffer the political fallout therefrom. However, I appeal to the Government to do exactly the same in this regard. It should grab the bull by the horns, accept that litigation will not resolve this matter and accept there is no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. It should recognise the position in which the witnesses find themselves and at a different level, should work this through a process in which the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government recognises its role in this regard, particularly through HomeBond.

If one considers the various parties involved such as the builders, quarry owners, developers and HomeBond because of its insurance, there is also an encumbrance on the State in respect of the building regulations. What testing was required for the aggregate coming from the quarries? This is done in respect of cement but was there any such requirement by the State through building regulations issued by the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government to test the aggregate coming from the quarries for pyrite? If so, was this followed through? My understanding is this was not the case.

Rather than getting lost in the mire that is the legal environment, one should move to find a resolution for the witnesses and their families. I note this does not pertain to their present status in respect of the negative equity that many people have encountered, which is a quite separate issue. I suggest to the Acting Chairman that the joint committee's report should put considerable pressure on the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government to step up to the plate, move beyond the rhetoric and the courts and try to find a resolution for these people.

I welcome the witnesses and those representing the Pyrite Action Group in particular. I commend it on all the good work it has done in this regard and acknowledge it has been a frustrating and lonely road for a long time. I am delighted the new Government has set up a review group, which hopefully will take matters forward and will ensure that all homes in difficulty are repaired. As the witnesses noted in their presentation, everyone purchases a home in good faith and it should be fit for purpose. It is the largest investment in people's lives and this problem would be a major issue in its own right, were it not for the country's present economic position. This is a major scandal from which many lessons are to be learned. We must ensure the homes are put right and that something like this can never happen again.

I wish to ask the city manager three brief questions. In respect of all the new housing estates that have been built by Dublin City Council over the past ten years, can he confirm the council has carried out an audit on them, particularly those which are showing traces of difficulty and cracks? He also might comment on the pursuit of builders and those developers who were responsible for the construction. He also should comment on the cost per home of putting this right. A figure has been bandied about of €68,000 to €80,000 per home but I am sure it can be done much more cheaply. While legal costs obviously must be kept to a minimum in this regard, the Government certainly must play a role. It is disappointing that HomeBond is not represented at this meeting, given its undertakings to home owners under the ten-year structural guarantee each home owner had at the time. I ask the city manager to respond to those three questions.

I also welcome the witnesses, who made a comprehensive presentation to members. I have gone through the presentation and it is heartbreaking to read what so many families have been obliged to put up with in recent years. I would not like to go through it myself or to see any of my family members being obliged to go through it. The onus is on members of the joint committee to listen. What does the Pyrite Action Group hope or expect to achieve through its attendance at this meeting? What does it want the joint committee to do? I understand a review group has been established but that obviously is only the starting block. Where do the witnesses want members to push the issue from here? Perhaps they could provide members with some of their practical experience of dealing with some of the different agencies to date. Members must learn from witnesses' experiences or lack thereof in recent years to effect change by seeking a more fair and equitable solution that will avoid burdening individual families with large legal bills. I ask for some practical examples. I also wish to know where the delegation hopes to go from here and what the witnesses want us, as some of their public representatives, to push from here.

Mr. John Tierney

I believe Mr. Finnegan covered the question of the audit and the submission goes into detail in that regard. On the question of costs per home, one can do certain deductions from what we have made in the submission; it depends greatly. I will not use one scheme because there is so much concrete in it that it is not the norm. That would be outside the norm, if one likes. However, the figures have varied from 35 to 50. Every scheme is different and some of our schemes are for Travellers or the elderly. Different layouts are involved externally also and would differ from the normal housing scheme. The two schemes that are most closely comparable to private schemes would be 35 to 43 or thereabouts?

Was the same contractor always used to remedy the work?

Mr. John Tierney

It depends on which contractor we are dealing with on individual schemes and the situation that arises from each of those contracts.

Mr. Peter Lewis

I wish to add to Mr. Tierney's point about the audit and gathering the information. The Pyrite Action Group has been gathering information and contacting estates throughout the various counties affected looking for submissions from each estate regarding the number of properties affected, the builder, developer, insurer and so forth. It is very much a work in progress. We envisage providing that information to the working group as a means of facilitating and expediting the process on which it will be working.

We are also well aware of the costs of fees involved. We have referred to quotes in the order of €40,000 to €90,000 depending on the size of property. A multitude of different properties are affected by these issues. It is not exclusively smaller properties or bigger properties. There are some very big issues. However, we would welcome a Government-led joint approach across all developments perhaps involving a tender system. Many contractors are out of business and looking for employment and if such a scheme could be introduced across the board there would obviously be economies of scale involved. We would very much welcome such a development which would fit in with the existing Government retrofit scheme.

Deputy Dooley asked about the legal route. While we obviously have people who may have taken the legal route, we have not directed people one way or the other. However, we know that the home owners we meet do not have the money to take legal action. At the end of the day they may take the legal route, be successful and ultimately find there are no funds to deal with the issue. The Deputy spoke about the banks being bailed out. We mentioned flooding and social emergencies that have occurred. We would very much see this as a social emergency that needs Government action.

Mention was made of the banks and returning value by investing money, and that some properties, council properties and so forth, are State owned. Ultimately home owners are asking us who is funding the State and why they are not being helped out given that they are in an equally dire if not worse situation and cannot even get a test carried out never mind moving to litigation after such a test.

I invite Mr. Shane Farrell to comment on his experience in working with HomeBond and other agencies.

Mr. Shane Farrell

I may be unusual in that I have been through the process from start to finish. I had the horror of moving into a house just before Christmas 2007 and on 2 January I watched my house disintegrate into what I have described as a jigsaw. Added to the stress of having a baby on the way, I wondered what was going on in my property. I am originally from north Dublin and having done some research into the nature of my problem, I quickly deduced that I probably had a pyrite issue similar to the problems experienced in the various regions of north and west Dublin we discussed earlier. Over a period I watched and cried as did my wife on numerous occasions as my house totally disintegrated.

It was a dream property for us. We paid an inordinate amount of money for it at the time and put a considerable amount of personal money into it. Having gone on holiday in May 2008 and returned after a fortnight we literally cried when we saw the deterioration in the property in those two weeks.

I am afraid I must interrupt Mr. Farrell. A division has been called and Deputy Hannigan must leave. I call Deputy Hannigan for one minute.

I congratulate Mr. and Ms Lewis on establishing the Pyrite Action Group. I am from County Meath and I know the other five Deputies from the county are very well aware of the scale of the problem in our county and other counties in the commuter area. The estimate for putting this right is in the order of €2 billion which is a significant amount of money. I would like the working group to establish the scale of the problem and ascertain how many houses are impacted. However, as was mentioned in the delegation's document, I also want the group to assess how much finance is available through the insurers, both in Ireland and abroad. We need to establish the extent of the finances available to rectify the situation. That will help us frame future actions arising from the work of the working group.

Some of the Deputies will not be returning after we suspend the meeting, but anything said will be on the record.

Unfortunately I must leave, notwithstanding the vote which is about to take place. I commend the group, which put together a weighty document that will be of interest to many Deputies who are not aware of the situation. Among Oireachtas Members, I am unique in many ways, but in one in particular, in that I have a home with pyrite. I have gone through the process since 2007. Along with my colleagues we have been discussing the issue since the general election and I obviously welcome the Minister's decision to establish a working group to investigate the matter. I would actively encourage the Pyrite Action Group and many others to get involved with that group. I may address other matters to the committee via e-mail, or perhaps we can meet.

We are about to suspend for five minutes.

In the estate Mr. Finnegan mentioned where the houses cost €600,000, how many individual houses were there? Taking on board what Mr. Tierney said about not dividing it up and-----

We will have to get that answer on the record. We will suspend for five minutes.

Sitting suspended at 6.30 p.m. and resumed at 6.45 p.m.

We shall resume. We shall take comments from Deputy Ryan, and from others as they come in.

I thank the Chair. I will not go over some of the ground that has been covered because it has been in the nature of the contributions today to express considerable support. I congratulate the Pyrite Action Group on its presentation and its comprehensive document, which is a great aid to understanding the problem.

Many of the pyrite problems have clustered in my constituency, Dublin North. I have visited many affected homes. I visited one last night and visit one or two per week. The problem must be seen to be believed and understood.

I have argued for the setting up of the working group and am delighted it has been set up. I am delighted the delegates have been invited to participate. The key point is that the work should proceed very quickly and the group should make its report very quickly. Most important, the work should focus on solutions to the problems rather than restate the issues stated today. The issues have been well aired at this stage.

I agree with Deputy Ellis, who said that, for the people affected, this matter is just as important as the very serious issue of distressed mortgages, which the Government is taking very seriously. Many householders face both problems. Pyrite presents a very serious issue. To suggest people can address the problem on their own is just not acceptable to me. To suggest it is a civil matter and that people can take civil proceedings is also unacceptable. From my dealings with people in Dublin North, I understand there is no capacity to deal with the problem through civil proceedings. Even if people had the resources, they would have nobody to pursue as the developers have gone. I wish the delegates well. They certainly have my support in trying to reach solutions to this problem.

I thank the delegates, particularly Sandra and Peter Lewis, for attending. They have never been here before and I am sure they were quite anxious about today. They have given their evidence in a superb and professional manner.

Given that HomeBond declined our invitation to talk to us today, serious questions need to be asked of it. The only people who can ask those questions are public representatives or members of the Government. If we consider the product that HomeBond actually sold and continues to sell, we need to ask whether it is fit for purpose. Given that HomeBond has €25 million in the bank today and its treatment of those to whom it sold insurance policies, is it fit for purpose as a company?

When Mr. Maguire described the difficulties he and the council have had over recent years and how they were dealt with, I was led to believe he had some success dealing with the developers amicably. Does he believe this is because of his clout or that of the organisation behind him? Was there a particular way in which he negotiated? Why did he have the success he had?

I will take a few more questions and then hear a comprehensive reply. I apologise to Mr. Shane Farrell for the interruption. We will come back to him first.

I have a few questions and Deputy Daly had some she wanted me to refer to.

Perhaps Mr. Shane Farrell and others should finish before any of us asks further questions.

We will proceed on that basis.

Mr. Shane Farrell

I will continue where I left off. In May 2008, I faced a horrendous scene on arriving back from holidays and then engaged in the relevant process as per the HomeBond agreement. The process is that one notifies one's builder or developer. We did so by sending a registered letter to his last known place of abode. One is duty-bound to give him a specified period in which to reply; I believe it is between four and six weeks but I cannot recall offhand. The builder met us and, like many people in these instances, promised the sun, moon and stars. He said there was money to fix the problem, if there was a problem. He engaged two structural engineers and we formally notified HomeBond in July 2008 that we had an issue and submitted a claim form. After a six-week period, the company carried out an inspection and deduced that we had a problem of some magnitude, to say the least. In the absence of testing specifically for pyrite, despite the fact that all the evidence indicated we were likely to be dealing with a pyrite issue, there is still procrastination with regard to identifying the problem as being caused by pyrite.

In October 2008, we had definitive tests carried out and, within a short period, it was ascertained that we had a pyrite problem of such magnitude that HomeBond was genuinely surprised that the house was structurally safe. At that stage I engaged a health and safety consultant, who carried out a comprehensive health-and-safety audit of the property. Of the four entry and egress doors, only one, the front door, was working. At that stage, we decided - pardon the pun - to bail out of the premises.

Thereafter, my wife and I had to decide what we would do. I notified Deputy Shane McEntee and he kindly took up our case with HomeBond and various agencies concerned. There ensued 12 months of negotiation, mediation and, for want of a better term, dispute resolution. We went to HomeBond on four occasions, on a number of which Deputy McEntee kindly accompanied me to offer moral support and highlight the issue on my behalf. However, on all those occasions, I was obliged to bring a quantity surveyor, a structural engineer and my legal representative, which added considerably to the cost each time I went to Canal Road. Over that period, being cheesed off with the process myself and having a legalistic background in some respects, I decided to educate myself further in case I would ever need to bring that process of mediation and negotiation further and I qualified in alternative dispute resolution. I found this to be of immense benefit to me in the ensuing 12 months before HomeBond actually came in the door.

HomeBond came in the door on 1 January 2010, which was quite a considerable time after we had moved into the property. It did so only after we have received certain assurances, backed up by my engineer and quantity surveyor, that certain items would be attended to a greater extent than provided for in the basic model of scope of works it was proposing for my property. In so doing, it engaged a local contractor, who was fantastic in his workmanship and in the dialogue I had with him. Under the terms of the HomeBond agreement, I probably was not entitled to have such dialogue with him. However, in agreeing to the HomeBond scope of works, which were carried out in a reasonably good manner, I was obliged to sign away my rights in respect of pursuing the option of suing the builder to HomeBond. The current position is that HomeBond is going after the builder for the cost of the remedial work in making my property as it is now, that is, with its structural integrity restored to what it should have been in the first place and from which it should never have disintegrated. That is my experience of the issue.

I feel strongly about many of the issues that have been brought forward today, particularly the cost factor that will be loaded onto each individual person if he or she must engage in a certain manner to have his or her property fixed. I had my property fixed and while I do not know what was the final sum, the ancillary costs, outside of fixing the property, were €37,000. These costs were for the rent during the time I was outside the property, as well as for legal costs and costs to a structural engineer and a quantity surveyor, of which I was able to recover €17,000 from HomeBond. It left me at a loss of €20,000 in the form of a personal loan I must repay. I was obliged to take it out as an add-on loan to the mortgage on the property and am paying it over 20 years because I could not afford to pay it any other way. This has been my experience.

I suggest we finish with the last contributions, after which we will wrap up.

I welcome the witnesses to this meeting, which should have taken place four or five years ago and I make no apologies for saying that. Mr. Tierney probably made the statement of the evening by saying each case is different and must be treated differently. However, this issue has been on the agenda for the past four or five years. It has been covered up through a court case in which people took their responsibility and threw it out the window. I refer to people in government as well as those outside in the building industry. From the first time I met Mr. Shane Farrell, I realised this was a far bigger issue than anyone could have imagined but the scale was evident from my meetings with HomeBond and everyone else. HomeBond was forbidden, through the courts, from revealing the number of houses involved.

The point has been reached where this no longer is a blame game but is a fix game. Enough experience exists in Fingal County Council, among people like Mr. Shane Farrell and the other witnesses, as well as in the building industry, in insurance companies and banks and in HomeBond in particular, to ensure it will not take three or four years for this matter to be sorted out because people cannot afford that. Each day missed before a house is fixed will cost everyone more. I do not accept the Government must pump in the money and fix all the houses because if it does so, people will have been allowed to get away scot free. There are two or three different angles in this regard. People in Fingal County Council can only do so much as the issue there pertains to council houses. People in private houses must go down the line with those developers who are still in business. I note some such people are walking away at present while claiming the Government will fix it. There are estates in which agreement was almost reached but HomeBond made a decision to walk away. Some of those who are walking away from their responsibilities have not only continued to build in this country, but are engaged in building right across Europe.

This is not the Government's job. It stated it would hold people to their responsibilities and the sum of €1 billion is not available to fix houses. However, it will not be possible to spend €20,000 or €30,000 on solicitors and barristers to fight this case, as neither the Government nor those affected have the money. It will be critical to pump everyone's experience and evidence into the new commission that has been established by the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Hogan, and that a directive comes from the Government. This is my aim and I do not intend to walk away from this problem after four or five years. I have come to know people affected and 43 or 44 estates are represented at this meeting. Moreover, that number will rise to 60 estates. However, the people who have been charged to take on this matter on behalf of the Government must do what Mr. Tierney suggested. Each case is different. There are people present who were close to an agreement being made last September before HomeBond pulled the plug. Deputy Dooley was correct to suggest that HomeBond must be brought before the joint committee. It is necessary to ascertain how many houses are involved. It must be stripped down to each estate, each building and even to the roads. I was disgusted that a week or two before the M3 was opened, a Government body could come before the Oireachtas and state the material that caused problems in houses was not used in the M3. A mere 24 hours before the M3 was opened and due to pressure arising from information given by people within the industry, a statement was issued to the effect that the main structure of the M3 consists of the same material as that contained in the houses.

Many people must be held responsible for this problem and they cannot walk away from it. It is easy to suggest throwing in a kit of money. People remain in business, who are familiar to everyone present, as well as banks in control of estates and people in the quarry business, all of whom remain in business. Members' job is to ensure that before they make another move, they must ensure the affected houses in each estate are fixed. Several times, I was approached to shut up on this issue, which was not nice, by people who wasted millions in court cases. Had the €20 million that was spent on a court case been directed towards fixing houses and had the Government of the day taken responsibility for what was going wrong, we would not be in the position in which we find ourselves.

I have no real questions to ask. However, I urge the Pyrite Action Group to have faith in the system and I repeat they should not engage in the paying of solicitors and barristers. I have preached this point repeatedly. In one case in which I was involved, a conclusion with regard to an estate was almost reached but then the legal teams became involved and we now are ten times further down the road then was originally the case. HomeBond is key to the solution and cannot be allowed to refuse to attend this meeting. There are people within HomeBond for whom I have respect and always will and who would like to appear before the joint committee to say what must be said. However, there are others who have worked tirelessly to ensure they protected their businesses to the ultimate detriment of those affected. As Mr. Shane Farrell has pointed out, he has been landed with the bill. People's houses are their castles and with my party, Deputy Clare Daly and members of all parties at this meeting, I am adamant that with regard to those who are responsible, one should not spend four or five years having meetings with legal teams. Those present have all the expertise on how to get it fixed. I welcome the fact that Fingal County Council officials are here today. I have informed my local authority as well. As Mr. Tierney stated, every case is different. The people in the Visitors Gallery know €1 billion is not available, but there are insurance companies and builders and banks in control of estates. My job, and that of everybody here, is to ensure that they are brought in here and made responsible. I ask the people to have faith in the system. I believe in it. I believe that there are good people in HomeBond who have all the knowledge that we need.

People should realise that when the pyrite has done its exploding, every day we leave it the sulphur is eating into the cement within the concrete blocks and within the floors, and if we spend four or five years in courts, every house will have to be demolished.

I am delighted that this day has come. The matter was covered up for four or five years. That should not have happened

I will make a few comments, then I will ask Deputy Daly for a few comments and then we will wrap up.

People tell me they do not want to draw attention to it and that they might be the only one in the estate. They say so no matter how much I tell them that once the house is flagged, the estate is flagged. The delegation might address that issue. I realise that we are putting a great burden on a voluntary organisation whose members did not intend it to become a voluntary organisation. They wanted to get on with their lives and they have merely been thrown into that role. I thank the group for all of the work it is doing.

How much did it pay HomeBond and what did it think it was getting for it? That is a straightforward question to which it would be worth having a reply. The group might address the issue of how people deal with when the builder goes out of business.

On the issue of apartments, obviously, it is the ground floor apartments that are affected. How does that impact on the building further up? As Mr. Farrell pointed out, it is abundantly obvious that speed is essential in this regard. The longer it goes on, the more damage will be done and the more it will cost to remedy it.

I take the Minister of State's point on HomeBond, the insurers, the banks, and so on, but the one point on which I think we all are agreed is that this cannot go on. There must be a time line for the committee. There must be an end date for conclusion of the work so that there is certainty. The one constant going through the personal testimonies is the word "stress", with people seeking medical advice because they are so stressed out and hating to go through their own hall door.

The following captures it well, where the purchaser states that it is not the developer's fault in that he only sold the apartment, it is not the builder's fault in that he only built the apartment, it is not the building engineer's fault in that he did not know it was pyrite, it is not the regulator's fault, it is not the bank's fault, it is not the Government's fault and, therefore, it is the purchaser's own fault for falling victim to this. The Minister of State is correct. We must get to solutions urgently.

No doubt we are at a turning point on this issue. Six months ago, nobody would have imagined that we would have such an extensive group here. Now, for the first time, the scandal is a matter of public record. It has been a problem that people have been the victim of this being kicked around to everybody.

Nobody set out to cause pyrite. Nobody, in that sense, decided it would be great to inject a bit of pyrite here to have a little fun. Nobody, neither builders nor quarry owners, set out to do it. However, the evidence emerged and people ignored it, and that is the first problem.

The second problem was the lack of regulation. I want the delegation to comment on this. What organisations such as HomeBond are trying to do is say that it is great that it is nothing to do with them and it is all the quarries which will deal with this. As other members and the delegation have stated, quarries on their own do not have the means to deal with it either.

What was the problem? They were not doing anything that they were not allowed to do. Is it the case that it was the regulations that were inadequate or was it that they were not properly enforced, or was it the case that it was a combination of the two? I would like that point dealt with.

The issue of the link between local authorities, the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government's inspections and HomeBond is important too because the State must take responsibility. HomeBond is a consequence of self-certification, which happened under the reign of successive Governments. That is why it came about. The regulation simply was not there to deal with it.

Banks legitimised HomeBond. Builders say that they had to use HomeBond or the banks would not give them a loan, which gave it a credibility as well. The banks have a role in this too.

Unless the working group takes a lead on this, it will not be resolved. Everybody says there needs to be a time line. The Government has established this working group, which all of us think is an incredibly positive move, but it must move quickly and it must come up with something. Unless the Government establishes a task force out of this to do what Dublin City Council is doing, then we will go around in circles with everybody blaming each other. I agree with the Minister of State that there is not a bottomless pit of funding. That is not to say that we should say, "Throw a couple of billion euro at it. That will sort it out.". That is unreal. It is to say, a little like what Dublin City Council did, that we should take a lead, identify the problem and put out to tender the works to be done. That did not mean that Dublin City Council footed the bill or that the State should foot the bill for all of it. In some cases, they liaised with developers and they got money in, but they took a lead in that regard through mediation, litigation, whatever - nobody is in favour of litigation. Other than that, it will be around the garden.

I suggest that this committee does three things. First, that we agree to take a report back on this issue to tie-in with the working group's report or in three months, whichever is sooner.

Because it is a little outside the scope of the working group but, based on evidence today, it impacts on this, I suggest that we as a committee intervene with the insurance regulator to deal with the issues of insurance and ordinary household insurance being impacted upon in estates that have been tarnished with the pyrite label, either currently or where works have been done. It is not acceptable that home owners are not being insured. We, as a committee, can have a role in that regard.

Possibly, on the health and safety and fire inspection audits, we would use our powers as a committee to intervene with other Government organisations or State bodies, the insurance regulator or the industry to make progress on those while the working group operates, and we would act as a watchdog.

I propose that the topic be on the agenda for next week's meeting in private session for thorough debate on where we go from here, if that is agreed.

Mr. Peter Lewis

The Acting Chairman asked about home owners not wanting to reveal the scope of the issue or that they have a problem at all. Ms Sandra Lewis will comment on that.

Ms Sandra Lewis

In trying to engage with affected developments it has been incredibly difficult to get people on board to come out and state that they have a pyrite problem and to ask how it is to be dealt with. Partly, that is down to legalities. People taking legal action are told not to discuss this, not to say anything and not to do anything outside of the legal action. The main reason for that is reputation and re-sale. People are worried that they will not be able to sell their houses. To be perfectly honest, they will not anyway. One cannot sell a home with pyrite. It is not possible. Any engineer coming in to conduct a structural survey on that would say that the person will not be allowed to sell such a home.

The fear comes from thoughts of re-sale and reputation, and people taking legal action. In one case of which we have heard, which was to do with the "Primetime" piece that ran in February last, a home owner allowed the engineer to look around her home and for the cameramen to take footage of it, and has since had to leave her home due to bullying by her neighbours. The level of secrecy is extreme and people will go to great lengths to avoid others finding out their developments have pyrite problems. In regard to apartment blocks, even if we had €50,000 right now we would not be able to fix our apartment because our neighbours and communal areas must also be taken into consideration.

We have personal experience of builders going out of business. Our contract is with a builder who has gone bust, although he continues to sell apartments in Spain. Our legal avenues have been closed off because we do not have a direct contract with the quarry. We are stuck in every sense of the word.

From a personal point of view, we are in a desperate situation in that we are paying a mortgage and will now have to pay rent in addition because we have to vacate our apartment. Our constant fear is that one of us will lose a job. At present we are both working and our situation is just about manageable but we are both on contracts. I recognise we are speaking about bricks and mortar but it is more than that for us. The issue filters into every part of our lives. There is financial strain and one's mental and emotional well-being take a beating. Individuals have told us that they cannot walk around their homes because all the tiles are broken. Others have gone to their doctors for medication to treat depression and sleeping tablets. It is difficult to cope when one constantly expects to find new cracks in one's home and is helpless to do anything about it. We got out for those reasons but we are paying a price in terms of mortgage and rent.

Mr. Peter Lewis

As regards the HomeBond payments, we heard estimates that ranged as high as thousands of euro, €10,000 perhaps. We thought these were accurate estimates in the context of properties that were worth €300,000 or €400,000. Subsequently we are hearing figures of €125 or so, others mentioned €2,000, more for a larger property. This begs the question of what HomeBond was supposed to cover. These questions were raised by the Law Society in 2000 when it warned about the organisation's limits to liability. The literature we were given prior to purchasing our properties assured us that major structural defects would be covered. Furthermore, as the banks asked for this cover to be taken out we believed that we would be covered for any structural problems in our homes.

In regard to the possibility that the houses concerned will never be saleable, I accept the reputational consequences are significant but I am aware of at least two cases where houses discovered to have pyrite problems were repaired and sold on. Perhaps we should take a reasonably positive approach. I accept Ms Lewis's general point but it is not necessarily absolute.

Ms Sandra Lewis

To clarify, it is impossible to sell a house as long as the pyrite defects have not been addressed.

I agree. Reinstatement can move us on, however.

Ms Sandra Lewis

Absolutely. Once the house is fully repaired, it is better than new. It is fully saleable at that stage.

Mr. Peter Lewis

Perhaps Mr. Farrell can answer the question on building regulations.

Mr. Emmet Farrell

In regard to the building regulations, the Minister, Deputy Hogan, answered a number of parliamentary questions which I have been asked to study. He asserted this is a civil matter and that his Department is not responsible. If the building regulations were adequate, why were they changed at the end of 2007? There is considerable civil engineering literature on the matter, including in particular the book, Ground Chemistry: Implications for Construction, by Alfred Brian Hawkins. Several of the articles in that book spell out the geotechnical problems associated with pyrite and buried mud rocks. In addition, the Geological Survey of Ireland sheet 13, which deals with the geology of County Meath, shows that pyrite bearing mud rock is contained in the Tober Colleen formation. A layperson would not be able to detect these problems but the people who are responsible for building regulations are not laypeople. The Building Regulations Advisory Committee includes delegates from the concrete consultative committee and the aggregates panel, which represent big quarries that have built up significant expertise in this area. They should have been able to identify this problem but the building regulations did not require them to test for heave-inducing pyrite.

Even after changes were made to annexe C of the building regulations in December 2007, the fill which is to be used to replace the problematic materials is not accepted by the British insurer, Premier Guarantee. Annexe C advises that one should be concerned about heave if the fill contains more than 1% pyrite but Premier Guarantee recommends a guide document, TRL 2005, which advises that one should be concerned if the pyrite comprises more than 0.6%. I mention these figures because I am aware of houses that suffered significant damage from percentages of pyrite of between 0.6% and 1%. The Minister, Deputy Hogan, was quite dismissive of this issue and referred to the case of James Elliott Construction.

In regard to what good this committee can do for the people who are suffering, a question that needs to be answered immediately is what are the source quarries of the hard-core underneath the properties. If the committee can find out whether a quarry has produced and distributed heave-inducing pyrites, it is overwhelmingly likely that all the houses in the relevant estates are affected.

If there is major structural damage to these houses, they should be fixed immediately without any testing. The houses that show minor or no damage should be tested. There is no reason to test if it is known that the fill contains heave-inducing pyrite. The priority is to repair the houses. The contractor has gone into liquidation and HomeBond has information on the source of the fill but is refusing to share it on the basis of the Freedom of Information Act. This committee has to uncover that information.

The heave-inducing process is continuing and sulfate is attacking rising walls and the foundations of the houses. That is only serious if groundwater is above the level of the concrete. If there is water in the soil it will become a rapid process but otherwise it could be 30 or 40 years. The fill has to be removed to stop the process. We are aware of cases of 12 mm encroachments into 9 in. blocks. The problem is solved once fill has been removed and the wall scabbled but if it is allowed to continue with water in the soil either the concrete in the foundations or the rising block walls will degenerate.

Mr. Philip Maguire

The Reco was one of the first buildings in which pyrite was detected and the full cost of remediation was not appreciated. It was believed it was merely a matter of settling but the building was tested when it recurred. We had a good relationship with the contractor. The contractor fixed it and started negotiations with the quarry about recovering the costs because there were records showing where it had come from. The contractor did not reach agreement with the quarry and has incurred very significant costs for 59 days in court and has recovered nothing to date. Some people have already mentioned that some other contractors may be insolvent and with the downturn many of them may not have the resources to sue. I would not take that as a typical case. So far the quarry and its insurance companies appear to be less than enthusiastic about accepting their responsibilities.

Mr. John Tierney

Most of the other points were covered. We received correspondence today from the panel and will be working with it. Its representatives wish to meet us and Dublin City Council will provide any assistance we can.

I think that was a very useful discussion. We will consider the issue in private session at the next meeting.

I left out the responsibility of the banks and I want to put this on the record. I am 99.9% certain I can stand over what I say. There is an estate in north County Dublin with a number of properties unsold, which is in receivership. The banks have put out to tender and given a contract to fix the houses that are not sold. However, the owners of houses that are already sold are left sitting on their own. I believe I can stand over that. I will retract it if I have to, but I am nearly sure I know what I am talking about. We are pumping billions of euro into the banks to keep them going and we will need to pump it into them again when the houses fall.

Mr. Peter Lewis

I wish to make one final point.

It must be the final point as otherwise we will keep going around in circles.

Mr. Peter Lewis

Regarding the involvement of the State, many properties and developments are in receivership and under State ownership. We talk about this whole issue not being State but being private ownership. The banks that own these properties are now under State ownership. The mortgages have been given by the banks and the banks are owned by the State; therefore they are State properties. How is this any different from local authority housing, etc.?

If any members of the committee have recommendations to make, I ask them to do so to the committee secretariat before the next meeting on Tuesday. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. John Tierney

The question that Deputy Alan Farrell asked is actually answered in the submission.

I thank Mr. Lewis, Ms Lewis, Mr. Shane Farrell, Mr. Emmett Farrell, Mr. Tierney, Mr. Maguire, Mr. Brady, Mr. Finnegan, Ms Reilly and Mr. Sullivan for their contributions today.

The joint committee adjourned at 7.25 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Tuesday, 18 October 2011.
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