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JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE ENVIRONMENT, TRANSPORT, CULTURE AND THE GAELTACHT debate -
Wednesday, 11 Jan 2012

Dublin Airport Authority: Discussion with Chairman Designate

I welcome Mr. Pádraig Ó Ríordáin, chairman designate of the Dublin Airport Authority and thank him for his attendance. I draw his attention to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in respect of a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I call on Mr. Ó Ríordáin to open the meeting with his address.

Mr. Pádraig Ó Ríordáin

I am honoured to have been asked by the Minister, Deputy Varadkar, to become Chairman of the Dublin Airport Authority and I thank the Chairman and the members of the committee for the invitation to come before it today. It is a privilege for me to be here.

I want to take this opportunity to introduce myself personally to the committee, to provide it with an overview of my professional background and to give it my initial impressions of the Dublin Airport Authority. I will also outline the key challenges I see for the company over the next few years as well as the role of the chairman in addressing them. Following this, I would welcome any questions the members may have.

I grew up in Cork, the middle child of two teachers. I have three brothers and one sister. I went to school in Coláiste an Spioraid Naoimh in Bishopstown, in Cork, after which I studied law in University College Cork. It was the late 1980s and career opportunities were quite scarce in the country. I stayed on in UCC for a period to do postgraduate degree work, which I combined with teaching law and qualifying as a barrister in King's Inns here in Dublin. When I finished that, I went to the United States where I studied at Harvard Law School where I completed a Master of Laws degree.

After Harvard, I moved to New York City where I trained with Hughes Hubbard & Reed, which is a well-known Wall Street law firm. I learned an enormous amount in that job, but in many ways my epicentre was always in Ireland and after a number of years with that firm, I left and joined Arthur Cox, where I ran its New York office for three years, dealing mainly with the firm's US-based multinational clients with operations in Ireland. I returned to Ireland with the firm in 1996 having spent approximately seven years in total in the United States.

I was elected managing partner of Arthur Cox, a role equivalent to chief executive in a company, in 2003. I was re-elected in 2007 for a second term and I have just completed that second and final term in that role. Arthur Cox is among the largest law firms in Ireland with approximately 100 partners and 500 staff.

From a legal practice perspective, my background is in corporate finance and regulated industries. Over the past three years, I have led and continue to lead the Arthur Cox team which has advised the State on the legal aspects of the banking crisis and in legally implementing Government policy. In doing so, I have worked closely with the Department of Finance, the National Treasury Management Agency, the National Asset Management Agency and the Office of the Attorney General.

In addition, I head the Arthur Cox team which last year won the tender to become the lead legal provider to the Health Service Executive. Our role under this contract is to provide the HSE's corporate legal advice, while also directly managing the work of the other 30 law firms across the country which provide services to the HSE, rationalising expenditure on legal work nationally, reducing costs and improving results.

In terms of my experience most immediately relevant to the chairmanship of the Dublin Airport Authority, I am a non-executive director of two public companies: Paddy Power plc and TVC Holdings plc, which is an investment company, both of which are listed on the Dublin and London stock exchanges. As managing partner of Arthur Cox, I have also chaired the Arthur Cox Management Committee for eight years. One of the great advantages of being a corporate legal adviser is that I have had extensive experience and exposure to the corporate governance and business issues a very wide range of boards face in both the public and private sectors. I would be happy to expand on any aspect of my background and I have separately provided a detailed résumé to assist the committee in this regard.

I would now like to speak about the Dublin Airport Authority itself. Although my firm advises it legally, I was not overly familiar with the details of the company or its business prior to the beginning of this process. I never worked with it or met its board and executives. My primary understanding of the company and its business is almost entirely from travelling through its airports and from the press. The several weeks since the Minister, Deputy Varadkar, approached me about this role have, therefore, been particularly interesting. I have met the company executives and read as much about the business of the company as time has allowed.

Although my impressions are at this stage no more than initial, I would nonetheless like to share them with the committee. My first impression is that Dublin Airport Authority is a competent, well-run and effective business. It receives no funding from the State and operates on a fully commercial basis. The executive is sophisticated and dedicated and what it has achieved, particularly over the last four or five years, is very impressive. I do not make this statement lightly and do so only by reference to my experience of other Irish and international companies of which we, as a country, should be proud. I have not yet had the opportunity to engage with staff but my personal experience of people at the airport, its safety and operational record, as well as the level of successful change which has happened at the three airports over the past few years, indicate that they are of equally high quality.

The DAA had an annual turnover of just under €560 million in 2010, the most recent period for which financial results are available, and generated a pre-tax profit of €52 million during that year. Profit after tax was €33 million. The company derives its income from passenger charges and commercial activities such as retailing, both in Ireland and overseas, the provision of car parking, property rentals and investments. It is a major employer with almost 2,500 staff in Ireland and a further 3,500 employed by Aer Rianta International in 14 countries overseas.

It is not an overstatement to say that Dublin, Cork and Shannon airports are the gateways to Ireland. Approximately 96% of all air traffic into this country comes through these three airports. Broadly speaking, that is 96% of people coming to do business here, 96% of tourists flying into the country and, indeed, 96% of people living here travelling abroad for work or vacation. A total of 68 airlines fly into Dublin Airport alone, connecting Ireland to 171 destinations. As an island nation, these airports are some of the most important infrastructure which we possess and they have never been more important than now, when the only likely path to our economic regeneration is through optimising our international trade and accessibility. Our airports are not static but are living, breathing resources which need to constantly evolve, improve and upgrade if they are to meet the international standards expected by international travellers and meet Ireland's requirements for the future.

Between 2005 and 2010, DAA invested more than €1.6 billion at Dublin, Cork and Shannon airports. This total investment programme was achieved with only a net €400 million increase in the company's debt levels, with cash generated from operations and strategic asset disposals minimising additional borrowing. This investment programme included new passenger terminals in Cork and Dublin, two new boarding gate facilities in Dublin, new US pre-clearance facilities at Dublin and Shannon for passengers travelling to the United States and a wide range of other upgrades that have improved the passenger experience at all three airports and helped the efficiency of the airlines that operate from them. These key new facilities now form a permanent part of the country's modern infrastructure without requiring any support from the Exchequer.

Terminal 2 in Dublin Airport is a particularly good example of this. When terminal 1 was opened in 1972 it was designed to cater for 5 million passengers, less than a quarter of today's volume. It received criticism because it did not operate to these volumes for many years. I ask members to imagine the situation today if terminal 1 had been built even smaller, cheaper, and less capable and think back to the days before terminal 2 was opened and the unbelievably congested conditions in terminal 1 by that time, despite major extensions. Terminal 2 is a 50 year investment and an extremely rare opportunity to build infrastructure of such lasting importance to our country. For our children and grandchildren and just about every international person doing business in our country over that period it will be a central element of their primary port. It would have been short-sighted to have built it to the standards of past. It had to be built to the most modern specification and to future capacity requirements if it was to stand a chance of providing the required value to this country throughout its lifecycle. To put the importance of this in context, Eurocontrol, which is the European organisation that monitors air traffic control, estimates that air travel in Europe will nearly double by 2030.

We have just finished year one of that 50-year cycle and already we have international airlines such as Etihad, United Continental, Emirates and American Airlines, none of which would expand its Irish operations or fly to Ireland at all except for terminal 2. The terminal has delivered a substantially better travel experience for all users of Dublin Airport. It has capacity for growth, it facilitates business travellers and it was the right thing to do. Even more important at present, the Exchequer did not have to fund it.

Over the past several weeks, I have also become much more familiar with DAA's other business, Aer Rianta International, ARI, which is one of the leading airport retailers globally and contributes significantly to the profitability of the DAA. Its revenue supports the DAA in developing the infrastructure at our airports, helps it to borrow efficiently and reinforces its resolve never to rely on the taxpayer for funding. ARI recently won new contracts to run the retail operations of airports in China and India, which is precisely the kind of business Irish companies need to win. The benefits of this are not only financial but also keep DAA at the core of evolving international standards in airports and showcase the effectiveness of Irish business in these key emerging markets.

I was struck at how successful ARI has been in generating value through the investments it has made in other international airports over the years, thereby leveraging for the benefit of the taxpayer DAA's expertise in running airports. ARI currently holds successful equity stakes in Dusseldorf Airport as well as in Larnaca and Paphos airports in Cyprus. To illustrate how important these investments are, in 2007 ARI sold its stake in Birmingham Airport at a profit of some €240 million in order to fund investments in infrastructure at home, such as terminal 2.

This is not to deny that the DAA faces real challenges in the immediate period ahead. I see challenges arising under a number of different headings. The first of these is the appointment of a new chief executive. I have come to know Declan Collier over the past few weeks while I did my due diligence on the company. I have seen his work and the team he has built around him and it is quite clear to me that he has been an excellent chief executive who will be particularly hard to replace. The identification and appointment of a new chief executive is a particularly important job for the new chairman and I intend to devote significant energy to it over the next several months.

The second challenge is rebuilding a strong and effective board. The board of DAA is currently in transition, with the terms of a number of directors expiring recently, in addition to the departure of former chairman David Dilger and Declan Collier. It is, of course, a matter for the Minister as to who is appointed to the board but I intend to work with him to identify the optimal blend of skills and people to move the work of the DAA forward. It will also be a central part of the chairman's role to continue to ensure strong communication and transparency between the company and the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport, as well as to engender a purposeful and cohesive dynamic in the DAA board itself.

The third challenge is reducing the DAA's debt burden. As I noted previously, the development of terminal 2 is a 50 year investment for the country. As terminal 2 and other infrastructure set out in the five year plan have just been completed, we are at the beginning of that investment cycle and it is therefore no surprise that DAA is currently operating with elevated levels of debt. DAA's funding profile is strong and prudent but there is no doubt that reducing the level of net debt and consequently the cost of that debt must be a business priority for the company. This will allow DAA to continue the development of its airports to meet Ireland's needs while also returning to a position where it can again pay cash dividends to the State.

According to its most recent annual report, DAA had net debt of €765 million at the end of 2010. It is planned to reduce this debt position over the next five years and the group's current funding facilities are designed to secure its medium-term position. Prudent management of the company's balance sheet will therefore be a central area of focus for the board over the coming years.

The fourth challenge is increasing passenger numbers. Since economic growth is the primary driver of airline traffic, passenger numbers coming through our State airports have declined significantly since the start of the economic crisis, just as they rose to record highs during the many years of economic growth. In 2010, the most recent year for which figures are available, 22.6 million passengers used the Dublin Airport Authority's three Irish airports down from a high of 30 million passengers in 2007. While the final data for 2011 is still being collated, my understanding is that overall passenger numbers at DAA airports have increased slightly in the past year. While the increase is modest the detail of how it is occurring is significant and encouraging.

In recent years there has been almost a total collapse in domestic air traffic between Irish airports due in large part to the improvements in the Irish road and rail network as well as to economic conditions. However, it is interesting that this has resulted in a decrease of more than 1.3 million domestic passengers using the DAA's three airports for domestic flights since 2007. The good news is that in the past year the decline in domestic travel has been more than offset by an increase in international passengers coming to Ireland which, from a business and tourist perspective, represents a materially greater benefit to the Irish economy. Developments such as the opening of the daily Emirates service from Dubai to Dublin earlier this week gives further cause for at least some optimism.

However, the DAA must continue to strive to increase passenger numbers coming through its airports not only to grow its own business but, more important, for the benefit of the economy in general. As chairman, it will be a central objective of mine to ensure that the company remains focused on this task by continually improving the service provided to travellers, reducing costs and working with other stakeholders to optimise the attractiveness of Ireland as a destination despite the constrained circumstances of the Irish economy. I believe the DAA should continue to develop and implement strategies that incentivise its airline customers to deliver increased passenger numbers at its three Irish airports. Its current policy of offering competitive airport charges linked with attractive incentive schemes appears commercially robust and I note that the company has recently indicated that charges at Dublin Airport will be flat for 2012 with no increases planned.

In the context of increasing passenger numbers, however, it is of central importance to recognise that charges at our airports are only one of many factors that influence whether people travel to Ireland as business people or tourists. Air fares, additional baggage charges and other airline fees, hotel and food costs, the effectiveness of the tourism industry and business robustness as well as overall economic conditions are among the influences over which the DAA has no control. Nevertheless, what the DAA can prudently do it must continue to do and, as chairman, I intend to ensure that the company retains that focus.

The fifth challenge I see is the need to continue to reduce costs. I have been impressed at how effectively the DAA and Dublin Airport in particular has moderated its costs in recent years despite the opening of a new terminal. When the Commission for Aviation Regulation last set its charges for Dublin Airport in 2009 it did a comparative study on the efficiency levels of the airport versus a number of comparable European airports. The study found that Dublin Airport had the second lowest operating cost per passenger of the airports it reviewed. Since then Dublin Airport has improved its efficiency by a further 21% while effectively doubling the capacity of the airport and radically improved its service and infrastructure. To put this in context, in 2012 the DAA is operating at 2008 cost levels, prior to terminal 2 being opened. For example, the company's cost recovery programme in recent years included voluntary pay reductions ranging from 5% to 12% for all staff earning more than €30,000 per year, changes in work practices, a voluntary severance scheme and reductions in all non-pay costs. These actions contributed to reducing the DAA's payroll costs by 10% during 2010. All of this was achieved within a positive and constructive industrial relations environment. However, in the ongoing economic climate the drive for cost reduction must be strongly maintained to safeguard the business and ongoing development of our airports, to reduce debt, to which I referred earlier, to reduce costs and to return to an ability to pay cash dividends to the State.

The final challenge I see is the resolution of the structure of Cork and Shannon airports. The question of the optimal structure for Cork and Shannon airports is a matter of national policy for the Minister, Deputy Varadkar, and the Government. I am aware that the Minister is currently reviewing the Booz report on the topic and I am mindful of the considerable amount of work that has been done over many years on the question. As chairman of the DAA, I envisage my role as working closely with the Minister, the Department and the board to ensure that whatever policy is adopted is delivered efficiently and in a manner that is optimal for the ongoing viability of the assets and operations which remain within the DAA.

It will be a privilege for me to become chairman of the DAA and to work with the board, the executive and the staff in the company. My goal as DAA chairman will be to manage and lead the company's board in an effective and efficient manner. Working closely with the board of the company and with a focus on the policy objectives communicated by the Minister, I intend to challenge and to encourage the chief executive and the management team to continue to develop our airports in accordance with the country's needs, to provide a quality airport travel experience for passengers and to continue to manage the business commercially. Finally, I thank the chairman and the members of the committee for the invitation to appear before the committee today and I would be pleased to take any questions.

Thank you Mr. Ó Ríordáin. Several people have indicated that they wish to come in so I ask people to confine themselves to questions to Mr. Ó Ríordáin rather than general comments.

I will begin with some brief comments before I get into the questions. I welcome Mr. Ó Ríordáin and I thank him for his presentation. Mr. Ó Ríordáin is taking over at the helm of the Dublin Airport Authority at a challenging time. Often I wonder why someone in his position would wish to take on such a role. Certainly it is not for any financial reward that will come to him out of it and his sense of duty to public service should be recognised.

Passenger numbers are down substantially on the medium-term forecasts that underpinned the large scale investment strategies undertaken by the company to date. Much of that is associated with terminal 2 but notwithstanding this there has been investment in Shannon and Cork. As Mr. Ó Ríordáin has identified, the company has significant debts and a particular debt burden. The revenue streams that would have underpinned that investment have fallen and were based on the project profile in place prior to the downturn in the economy. There are serious viability challenges ahead in the management of that debt. The refinancing of the bonds will be part of the work of the board and management in what is a hostile marketplace for bonds at present. There was a modest increase in passenger numbers last year but when one factors in the ash cloud event of 2010 that increase is largely negligible. Growth in business and tourism travel is largely dependent on economic growth at home and throughout Europe and with the projections for economic activity throughout these key markets the challenges for the chairman are stark. The DAA is also faced with the challenge of having a depleted board and a requirement to rebuild it in conjunction with the Government at the same time that the chief executive is leaving. I do not underestimate the challenge faced by the chairman and I wish him well.

It is clear that Mr. Ó Ríordáin is highly qualified and a successful lawyer. Notwithstanding that, has Mr. Ó Ríordáin any concerns about what would appear to be a lack of specific corporate and commercial experience, taking into account the challenges facing the company? How does Mr. Ó Ríordáin intend to overcome this apparent lack of experience? When was Mr. Ó Ríordáin first approached by the Minister with regard to his appointment? There has been some public comment to the effect that he was not the first person approached by the Minister. Will Mr. Ó Ríordáin give us some comments in this regard?

Mr. Ó Ríordáin has indicated in his presentation that he has held discussions with Mr. Collier and he has praised his work in recent years. He has identified the excellent work Mr. Collier carried out. Has Mr. Ó Ríordáin had an opportunity to ascertain why he is leaving the company? Did Mr. Ó Ríordáin try to convince him to remain on at any stage during the discussions? Will Mr. Ó Ríordáin share any comments he made in this regard? It has been reported that Mr. Collier felt publicly humiliated by members of the Government in respect of comments made about his contractual arrangements and remuneration. It appears that undue influence has been brought to bear by the Minister and members of the Government in respect of the exercise of that contract. Has Mr. Ó Ríordáin held any discussions with the Minister to ensure undue influence is not brought to bear on either the chairman or the management and the executive of the company in respect of contractual requirements? It is vitally important that as chairman, Mr. Ó Ríordáin would retain a position which ensures that the statutory position of the company is respected, regardless of the requirements of the Government to appear to be populist, while undermining the future viability of the company. It is highly regrettable that a company like the DAA would appear to have lost both the chief executive and a chairman in pretty rapid succession due to what appears to be differences of opinion between the Government and the Minister.

What is the process for appointing a CEO? What role does Mr. Ó Ríordáin and the board play in the appointment of a new CEO?

There are other committee members who wish to speak.

I accept that, but I am speaking on behalf of the Opposition here. Has Mr. Ó Ríordáin any concerns about the calibre of candidate who will be attracted to the position in light of the pay cap? When is Mr. Collier leaving? What time lapse does he envisage there will be between Mr. Collier's departure and the appointment of a new CEO? I know there is a level of elasticity here, but surely Mr. Ó Ríordáin has some view on it. What management structure does he hope to put in place in that intervening time?

Has Mr. Ó Ríordáin had an opportunity to discuss any of these issues with the previous chairman, in light of his departure? The previous chairman was reported to have left due to what he believed was undue influence exercised upon him by the Minister for Transport and the Government. Has Mr. Ó Ríordáin sought any assurances from the Minister that he will not bring any undue influence to bear on him during his term as chairman?

What are Mr. Ó Ríordáin's views about the proposed separation of Shannon and Cork airports, and the re-orientation of the management structure there? What ideas does he have about the growth potential of those airports, in particular the break up of the DAA into its constituent parts? What impact will that have on ARI? Will it stay headquartered at Shannon? There are significant issues in respect of the pension situation at the airport. The general employee superannuation scheme at the Irish airlines appears to be in significant deficit. What steps does Mr. Ó Ríordáin propose to take to rectify the non-payment of CPI increases to the DAA pensioners since 2007? What steps does he propose should be taken to protect the accrued benefits in full for pensioners in that scheme?

Has Mr. Ó Ríordáin been a member of a political party at any time? Has he made any personal contributions to any political party or election candidate that was above the declaratory limit?

I call on Mr. Ó Ríordáin to respond.

Mr. Pádraig Ó Ríordáin

Thank you, Chairman. It is interesting that Deputy Dooley started off by indicating how challenging a role this is. Everybody I speak to reminds me of that. It is also interesting that he asked me why I might want to do this. I want to do this because it is challenging and because it is a job that needs to be done. At the moment, given the position the country is in, I feel that people like me should be doing this. That is the reason.

In respect of my apparent lack of personal and corporate experience, my career is far broader than just a legal career. A number of things are relevant. I was essentially chief executive of Arthur Cox for eight years, which is a very big organisation. In addition to that, as a corporate lawyer and as somebody who runs an organisation like Arthur Cox, I have good exposure to all the business and corporate issues that arise across a range of companies. For example, if somebody is with an individual company over a ten-year period, that person will only have the experiences of that company over the ten years. In a position such as mine, a person would see all of the issues across many companies, so the person quickly accumulates a large element of commercial experience and of the corporate background in the non-legal sphere as well as the legal sphere.

I have also been a director of Paddy Power and TVC Holdings, both of which are very successful PLCs listed on the Irish Stock Exchange and the UK Stock Exchange. This also gives me a lot of exposure to board work and to the type of issues that a company of the scale and importance of the DAA would be dealing with.

I do not know if I was the first person approached about this. That is a question for the Minister. I was first approached about this in a preliminary way in late October, but it was only later that more critical mass occurred.

I think that Declan Collier has done excellent work in the DAA. From what I have learned, I have been very impressed with how much has happened in the DAA over the last few years. The opportunity offered to Mr. Collier in London City Airport is obviously very attractive to him. I am not in a position to speak about the history of what went before. I am not on the board yet, so I do not have an insight into that.

The Deputy asked whether the Minister could exercise undue influence over me as chairman of the DAA. I think about things very structurally. The role of a chairman is not defined by the Minister, but by statute. The functions of the board and the functions of the DAA are decided by the Oireachtas in the legislation, and that is the legislation to which I work. Therefore, it is not really possible for the Minister to have undue influence because my standard will be to work to what I am required to do under the statute. Part of the statute is that the company follows Government policy and we absolutely will do that on the board. However, that demarcation is very clear. Within all of this, I would like to foster a very close working relationship between the company, the Department and the Minister, because that is exactly what the DAA should be doing in the interests of Ireland. The role is very clear on the structural point.

The CEO appointment process has already begun. The DAA has already put out an advertisement for a new CEO. The new CEO is an absolutely key position, not just for the DAA, but for all of us. Our airports are one of our primary resources. We are a small country and we do not have that many resources. It seems to me that our airports are key to developing tourism, business and every aspect of who we are. The appointment of a chief executive in this respect is critical. The role of a chairman is to make sure that the board operates correctly and the company operates in line with Government policy, but the chairman does not run the company. The pivotal person for the DAA will be the chief executive. Therefore, we should take the time to find the very best person we can. As a country, it is very important that we get somebody who can compete with international airports and who can bring the DAA to the next level. Therefore, we should take the necessary time.

If we factor in the time it takes to advertise, to build a panel of people, identify the person, negotiate with the person, who then has to give notice for an existing job, then it will probably take about nine months. As the Deputy pointed out, that is elastic, but at the moment that is the timeframe I have in mind.

The pay cap is obviously a matter for Government policy. We will follow Government policy in this area. As a normal citizen, I understand how people have a very heavy focus on the numbers. My own personal view - I will still follow Government policy on the issue - is that having too low a pay cap is going to inhibit Dublin Airport very significantly and the development of our airports generally. From a business perspective the only way to think about this is that we are competing with hundreds of airports throughout Europe and other businesses which want very high calibre executives. There is a general market for chief executives of large companies and a more specific one for chief executives of airports. If there is a low pay cap in Dublin Airport, the package would be worth half the amount paid to the chief executives of Birmingham, Manchester or Düsseldorf airports which are smaller or comparable airports. The airports in Dublin, Cork and Shannon are the gateways to our country whereas, for example, Birmingham is not a gateway to the UK and Düsseldorf is not a gateway to Germany in the same way.

If we want to compete as a country, we need to get the best people into the positions. From a business perspective I would pay a little more. I will put it in a very simple context. Consider what a good chief executive can produce in terms of employment, increased passenger numbers and the increased development of airports. One can even ignore this and consider increased profitability. The pre-tax profitability of Dublin Airport in 2010 was more than €50 million. A chief executive who can make a 1% difference to this level of profitability will increase profits by €500,000, which is greater than any differential one can have in salary.

People see this very clearly in other contexts, for example, our soccer team. Steve Staunton managed the Irish team and I have enormous time for him as he was a fantastic servant of Ireland. Consider his pay compared with that of the new manager who was brought in at a far higher level. Very few people quibble with the fact that the new manager was brought in and brought in results, financial as well as sporting. Seen in this context, one gets a similar dynamic in business. For an asset of the importance of Dublin Airport, it is a key question.

I have several other questions.

I will come back to the Deputy.

I understand people being spokespersons, and I am the spokesperson for my group, but the range of questions is a bit much because nobody is getting any input.

There will be no further questions from Deputy Dooley. It is fine if he has a question that has already been asked but not answered.

That is all it is and it relates to the management structure Mr. Ó Ríordáin hopes to put in place for the gap period of nine months. Will Mr. Ó Ríordáin indicate when he believes Mr. Collier will leave? I also asked questions on pensions, on the separation of Shannon and Cork airports and Aer Rianta International, and on whether Mr. Ó Ríordáin has had conversations with the previous chairman, Mr. Dilger.

That was answered.

Mr. Pádraig Ó Ríordáin

With regard to the gap period, the logical solution is to have an interim chief executive because the airport needs to run effectively. As far as I am aware, Mr. Collier's contract expires in March and he has accumulated vacation time. He is a very helpful person and I am sure he will continue to contribute if we need his input.

I am very conscious of the pensions issue. The Deputy must remember I am not yet the chairman and I am not fully versed on the issue. It is at too early a stage for me to comment in any detail because it is a very complex issue. It is something to which the board must pay much attention.

With regard to the separation of the airports, I am coming to this now. I am not yet chairman of the Dublin Airport Authority. The decision on what is the right solution for Irish airports is very much a matter of Government policy and a question for the Government. My role and that of the board will be to implement Government policy as effectively as possible and to ensure it is done in a manner that retains the viability of Dublin Airport and Cork and Shannon airports also.

What about the question I asked on affiliation?

Mr. Pádraig Ó Ríordáin

I am quite apolitical and I have never been a member of or donated to any political party.

I thank Mr. Ó Ríordáin. I have read over his credentials and they seem impressive. Many questions have been answered. I intended to ask a certain number of questions and give everybody a chance and this should be the pattern. It is very unfair on everyone else.

Supplementary questions can be asked after responses.

I have made my point on this. Mr. Ó Ríordáin stated he was a non-executive director of two public companies. Is he on the board of any other company? Will he fill us in on whether this is the case? It appears that passenger numbers increased at the start of the year and tapered off at the end. The domestic market seems to be a big problem. What are Mr. Ó Ríordáin's ideas to tackle the domestic market? The international end of the market seems to be reasonably vibrant and improving, but there are signs that the airports are not getting the domestic numbers. We know huge infrastructural changes have taken place and we have new road networks, but we need to encourage more people to fly because it is a faster and more efficient way to travel.

Mr. Ó Ríordáin did not state much about the pension fund of approximately €500 million. How do the board and Mr. Ó Ríordáin intend to address this? It is a very important area. I am concerned about the separation of Cork and Shannon airports. What are Mr. Ó Ríordáin views on this? I do not believe it is in the interests of the DAA or the people. It is wrong.

I have used Terminal 2 quite a bit. Many people in the businesses in Terminal 1 complain they are struggling because of Terminal 2. I do not know how this can be addressed. If this is the case, is there any way they can be helped? Many of them are long-established and have come through hard times. It is very unfair.

I do not agree with what Mr. Ó Ríordáin stated about the CEO and that the pay caps which have been set should be broken. People should work within a range. It may not appear much, and I understand this case is category 2, but many people would see the amount of money in question as a wage. I disagree with the idea that people must be paid huge amounts-----

I believe it is category 1.

It is category 1. I disagree with CEOs being paid enormous sums of money because of their potential. We underestimate the people who are there, the people who will come and the people who are prepared to accept we are in very hard economic times and who can work within the figures laid out. A debt of more than €700 million exists, which is massive. The after-tax profits were €33 million. How does Mr. Ó Ríordáin propose to close this gap? Does he have ideas on this?

Mr. Pádraig Ó Ríordáin

Deputy Ellis asked about my position with regard to other companies. I am the chairman of the advisory board of a publication called The European Lawyer, which is a trade organisation, and there are one or two other small, private companies, one of which is based in Shannon.

There has been a significant change in domestic passenger numbers over recent years. The numbers I quote may not be absolutely accurate but I have not yet joined the company. My recollection is that over recent years, the number of domestic passengers has dropped by in excess of 1.5 million. That is between 2007 and now. There are a number of causes, including the now complete road network, an improved rail network and changed economic conditions. There is an ongoing perfect storm. There is less activity because of economic factors and there are other efficient means of moving between cities. Once the economy rebounds, it is more likely there will be more domestic air travel but I am probably not sufficiently qualified to give an economic view on why people would move from taking the train to using a plane. I would be able to comment on this more accurately at some time in the future. It is a dramatic change for Ireland in general.

With regard to adding value to the country, if somebody flies from Cork to Dublin, there is less value as that person is already spending money here. If such people do not spend it in an airport or on an airline, it would be spent on a train or on the motorways. If international traffic increases - Emirates has come to the country - new people will arrive in Ireland and add to the economic activity. Having said this, the board must clearly keep an eye on the domestic activity.

The pension fund issues are very complicated and my understanding is they are relatively deep. The pension fund is combined from three different companies so it is particularly complex. It would be premature for me to comment on this in any detail. Although I have read into it to a certain extent, it is too early to offer answers. The board will consider this carefully and proceed with worker representatives to ensure a proper resolution to the issue.

The separation of Cork and Shannon is relevant to earlier comments. Structurally, the job of the board of the Dublin Airport Authority will be to implement Government policy as that is the duty under statute. I am coming to this in a relatively fresh way. I grew up in Cork and my house was pretty much on the flight line. From when I was young I was very familiar with Cork Airport as a result. The conversations regarding Cork and Shannon have been ongoing for a long period and I am not sure I would personally have much to contribute to that debate. Whatever Government policy turns out, my role as chairman of the board is to ensure that the Dublin Airport Authority effects this in a lasting manner which will maintain viability in the remaining entities. That should be done relatively efficiently. Anything further than this would concern Government policy, which is not my brief.

With regard to Terminal 2, I believe businesses are struggling. I have not specifically examined that point so I am probably not as well briefed as I should be on that. In 2005 and 2006, Terminal 1 was extraordinarily busy but now traffic is distributed over the two terminals. That is a very big change. A key answer to this issue is a rise in passenger numbers. The businesses in Terminal 2 must do well in order to build and grow so it is a question of achieving a balance. The lifeblood in this will be new passengers.

There was a comment on the CEO breaking the pay cap, which I understand. Unfortunately, it is very difficult for a country like ours to set a benchmark in this regard as there is an international market for people with these skills. A very good chief executive would have a unique blend of skills. I agree that there may be somebody in the airport now who would make a very good chief executive in the future, and the question for the board is whether to go with somebody with a proven track record - which will bring more certainty in achieving the required results - or with somebody with the potential to carry out the job. That is a finely balanced question for the board.

I am a taxpayer like everybody else. I do not have any shares in the DAA and will never have them. From my perspective it is not a question of paying somebody for the sake of it but trying to balance results that can be achieved for the country and the company against a person's remuneration. Once a chief executive is appointed, it is not just for Christmas and that person will be there for a long period. If the decision is wrong or the board takes a risk and it goes badly, years of development would be impaired. I will consider such issues.

Another question involved the debt, which is high. The company is funded conservatively and in a thoughtful way to 2018, which is good. That takes the immediate pressure off refinancing some of the debt. By 2018, the idea is to reduce the debt and be in a position to refinance. There are other technical issues, as the debt of the DAA is linked to the debt of the country. For example, if rating agencies downgrade the country's rating, the DAA's debt would also be downgraded, meaning it would be more expensive to finance the debt. As a result, the company is focused on getting the debt down as quickly as possible.

It is good that Mr. Ó Ríordáin has come before the committee. I fully appreciate that his time in the job has been short and although we have the opportunity to ask general questions, the witness may not be able to deal yet with some specific issues that I might raise. It would be good if we had a forum to investigate such matters and where Mr. Ó Ríordáin could come back to us.

I appreciate the witness's honesty in saying that his knowledge of aviation is based on his experience as a traveller and, more worryingly, on what he read in the papers or understood from the press on the DAA. To be honest, reading the print media, much of it driven by the likes of Mr. Michael O'Leary, the view would be that the DAA is a monolith or white elephant. Although there may be some issues and questionable board decisions, it is an incredibly efficient operation. It has been a jewel in the crown of the Irish semi-State sector and a net contributor to the State with regard to dividends. It is a leading example internationally in how to set up airports, with global expertise. That history must be protected for the benefit of all citizens. With that in mind and with a view to the company going forward, there are several pertinent issues.

It is unfortunate that the witness has not yet had the chance to engage fully with some of the staff. I agree with Deputy Ellis in that the existing experience in the authority is a significant untapped resource for the development of the body. Mr. Ó Ríordáin would get far more from harnessing that than he would from breaking a pay cap to try to bring in somebody who would not have expertise on the ground. Engagement with the airlines is crucial. The infrastructure is now in place and the likes of Emirates have come on board, so there is now an opportunity for Dublin to be uniquely placed between east and west as a potential international hub. This is particularly true because of pressure on the likes of airports like Frankfurt and Gatwick. Our resource is untapped, particularly as we have the incredibly attractive process of pre-clearance for the US. People leaving from Ireland do not have to go through US inspections upon landing there as it would already be done. People travelling through Dublin rather than London can eliminate much of the hassle, a fact which would bring many international passengers through Dublin Airport if it acted as a hub. The airlines themselves have expertise and a role to play in that. The evidence historically and the view for the future is that this is a nugget in our infrastructural development, and the idea of its being privatised is one I would strenuously disagree with. I appreciate that Mr. Ó Ríordáin will probably say it is a matter for Government policy, but I would like to hear his views on whether that would be a good thing or something that is neither here nor there. In addition, in the context of the debt and the fact that the international business generates so much revenue to assist in bringing that debt down, what is Mr. Ó Ríordáin's opinion of the proposals in the McCarthy report to sell off the international business? To me, that would be absolutely scandalous, as it is raising a lot of revenue which will ultimately benefit the taxpayer. I think it would be completely wrong, but I would like to know what his opinion is.

Mr. Ó Ríordáin mentioned that the drive for ongoing cost reduction will be important in the future. I imagine there are many staff in the authority who have taken hits, as he correctly said, who will be scared to hear that and wonder what it means. The issues of staff wages, which have been massively reduced, and pensions need to be addressed. He said it was premature to comment on the pensions issue, but there are pensioners now who are suffering as a result of the way this pension scheme is managed. I must declare that as a former Aer Lingus worker, I am a member of the pension scheme myself, although I am not yet of pension age. The current pensioners have not received their consumer price index payments since 2007. While Mr. Ó Ríordáin may not be aware of that, in principle, what does he believe is the basis of their not receiving this payment or what circumstances would support this non-payment? What steps would he propose to take to examine how their accrued benefits can be paid in full and protected in the future? This is a major issue, and the nub of it is that one way or another the DAA will have to cough up more. That is the long and the short of it in terms of the deficit or ongoing contributions in staff wages. Although it might be too early for Mr. Ó Ríordáin to have an answer based on hands-on experience, does he have an initial reaction? To me, there is no way to proceed other than through further contributions by the DAA, either in a lump sum payment towards the deficit or through the ongoing pension contributions of staff. Does he see that as a non-runner?

Mr. Ó Ríordáin appropriately mentioned Dublin Airport Terminal 2 as a major infrastructural project. While there may be valid points to be made about the nature of the contracts and the cost of it, as a piece of infrastructure I think it is a phenomenal achievement. It looks great and it has huge potential. However, there are issues with it, a number of which I would like to address specifically. One is the building of the terminal and some of the carry-on to do with the construction contracts. Although Mr. Ó Ríordáin is new to the job, he has an opportunity to step into this and make his mark by clearing up some of the outstanding issues. I refer in particular to the fact that a number of the subcontractors have been left without payment. There are a number of people whose livelihoods and businesses have been jeopardised by the refusal of the main contractor, Mercury Engineering, to pay these companies their retentions. People have been through enormous hardship because of this. I appeal to Mr. Ó Ríordáin in this regard. I know the DAA has stated it is at a legal distance as its contract was with Mercury Engineering, which had its own contracts with the subcontractors. For a semi-State company, that is not good enough. There is a duty of care and there is a role to be played in assisting subcontractors in getting what is rightly theirs. Mr. Ó Ríordáin will be aware, from a legal point of view, that Mercury Engineering lost a couple of High Court cases here, so it does not have a leg to stand on. He can use his muscle to assist these people in a concrete way. I ask him to use his offices to engage directly with the T2 group which is representing the subcontractors, particularly with regard to the release of retentions. It is a disgraceful situation that has been allowed to continue. Mr. Ó Ríordáin could step in and tidy up something that has left a bad taste in the area.

My last point is one touched on by Deputy Ellis about the businesses that operate in Terminal 2. It is nearly a separate town, with a whole number of businesses operating, and in some ways the DAA is like the local authority for all the tenants and businesses that operate there. Mr. Ó Ríordáin will probably not know the answer to this question, but I will raise it and I would be delighted if he got back to me on it. There have been issues with regard to the tendering of rental spaces such as kiosks from the DAA over the last while.

We need to move on.

This is my last point. I will give one example in which DAA incompetence cost three people their jobs. Kiosks and retail units run by Point Three were put out to tender. The tender was drawn up on the basis that there were 12 people working there, which was actually an error as there were 15 people working there. Legally, the tender should have incorporated the business and jobs of the people who worked there and a transfer of undertakings should have been provided to allow the 15 people to transfer across. The DAA put up the advertisement based on 12 people. Spar put in a tender based on 12 people and was awarded the tender on this basis. Legally, the DAA stood over that, and three people lost their jobs because they did not transfer over to Spar. Presumably Spar just recruited three other people from scratch, probably on lower wages, while the man who ran Point Three - who put in his bid based on the current business and wanted to re-tender for it - lost the business. As a public representative in the constituency involved, Dublin North, I engaged in writing with the DAA, and its employees, management or whoever sent us a one line reply referring us to their public relations people. The role of the DAA's PR people is to deal with the media, not to deal with Deputies in the area. Apart from the terrible outcome for the workers involved, the whole situation is scandalous. I would like Mr. Ó Ríordáin to investigate this, but I would also like him to comment on it, because we need to examine that area.

Mr. Pádraig Ó Ríordáin

I will go back to the very beginning. The Deputy is right. My understanding of the DAA over recent years had been relatively passive, from reading about it in the press and so on, but when I got into the actual facts about the performance of the DAA and the achievement of its strategic goals, I was very impressed. It was different from what I had understood passively. The Deputy's point about the DAA being a strong company which has made a significant contribution is well made. That was my impression when I actually got into the details. Frankly, as an Irish person apart from anything else, I was happy to see that.

With regard to privatisation, that is absolutely a question of Government policy, but my own view is that the airport is very much a gateway to Ireland and is therefore an important part of Irish infrastructure, and for it to be totally privatised would be a very big decision. That is not to say that, for example, there could not be some element of private participation, if that was useful, to make the company stronger, more productive or better for Ireland. As I said, that is a personal view. What would happen in this regard is a question of Government policy.

Aer Rianta International is a very good company, and my immediate impression of it, having reviewed it - I have not actually met the executives - is that there are a few things about it that are quite compelling. The first is that it is a significant contributor to the airports. What that means is that it is not a question of making profit for the sake of profit. All of that money is ploughed back into developing the terminals, road networks, runways and other infrastructure in the three airports. If it were not for Aer Rianta International, the DAA would be loss-making. It is an important company from that perspective. The second thing is that it gives Dublin Airport a reach internationally, which is important. Aer Rianta International is working with some of the best and newest airports across the globe, and the expertise it gains through that informs the way we run Dublin Airport. The other thing I was very struck by from a purely business point of view was the value of the investments it has made over the years. The return on its investments is very good. It is an example of where we as a country can leverage something we do very well, namely run airports, make keen investments abroad and realise them. The DAA achieved a return at the right time on Birmingham airport. It took money out of Manchester airport and put it back into Dublin, Cork and Shannon, which is great.

I have been very impressed by the cost reductions made so far and what staff have contributed over the last period of time. In my opening statement I said that it needs to be the focus for the future. It is a general rather than specific focus on particular plans.

I am not well briefed on the details of pensions. As the committee is aware, the pension concerned is particularly complex. The CPI index payments since 2007, I assume, have not been paid because the fund is not sufficiently funded to do that, which is a matter for the trustees of the fund. I recognise it as being a very big issue and one which the board and company has to deal with, particularly because it is so important to staff. It is very important that Dublin airport works for everybody. The focus of the board will be to make sure outstanding issues are addressed.

On T2, I agree with the overall view on how strong a piece of infrastructure it is. The issue of contractors and subcontractors is prior to my time. Generally speaking, the way construction contracts are structured is that in order to get cost certainty for purchasers and for the DAA to have certainty about what it is paying for T2, in nearly every big construction contract the employer, the DAA, contracts with some major contractors. There were quite a few major contractors involved with T2. Subcontractors are then engaged to do the work.

The totality of the contractual relationship between subcontractors and contractors is with the contractor. In the case the Deputy mentioned it is with Mercury. Therefore, if the DAA was to say it would take on direct responsibility for subcontracts it would be unique. I do not think anybody has done that. It means that there would be no cost certainty on the costs of T2. Having said that, I hear the point the Deputy is making and the board will give it consideration.

On T2 businesses, the running of the airport and tendering are very much operational matters and therefore a matter for the executives. I will speak to the DAA about how it as a company deals with queries from a Deputy.

I ask Mr. Ó Ríordáin to ask what happened in regard to the incident to which I referred. I appreciate it is an operational matter. I take it from what he said that he will consider the issue of subcontractors at a board meeting. Would he agree to meet them?

Mr. Pádraig Ó Ríordáin

No, I am not necessarily saying that. From my experience to date it would be very unusual for an employer, somebody who contracted with the main contractor, to do that. The way construction contracts are structured means that the person buying the infrastructure has to know what it will cost and on what basis it will be done. Therefore, the way it is contractually done is that the contract is with the main contractor. All of this is very carefully done. Each of the subcontractors then enters into a carefully negotiated contract with, for example, Mercury.

I totally agree with Mr. Ó Ríordáin. I asked him not to use the legal definition because he is correct. This is a duty of care issue. None of the retentions have been released to subcontractors. Rather than the DAA releasing them to Mercury, it could release them to the subcontractors, which should not be done strictly legally. The ball could be put back in Mercury's court and it could be allowed to fight over it.

Deputy, you are slipping beyond the realms of the situation and recommending we move out of legal structures. I will conclude that part of the session.

Like the other members I welcome Mr. Ó Ríordáin and congratulate him on his designation so far. I wish him well in the role. It is very important that he does well in it. I admire the fact he is up for the challenge and it will be challenging. It is important, not just for him and the DAA but for the country and airline industry as a whole, that he succeeds. On behalf of my colleagues in Fine Gael, I wish him well.

Like most good industries the airline industry is a partnership effort. I would like to know Mr. Ó Ríordáin's personal and professional relationship with the major partners in the airline industry, namely, Aer Lingus and Ryanair. Irrespective of what people might say about Michael O'Leary, he has been the driver of open skies and bringing airport facilities and flights to ordinary members of the public. There has been some controversy about him and the DAA. Has Mr. Ó Ríordáin been involved in that? What are his views on Michael O'Leary's role in Aer Lingus? There needs to be a successful partnership between all three to drive the project.

I do not like going back over the topics but I have a particular interest in Shannon. Mr. Ó Ríordáin hides behind Government policy but what is his opinion on the break-up of Cork, Shannon and Dublin airports? Is it a wise move to have local bodies and companies involved in the running of Shannon? We have already heard from Deputy Daly about how wonderful it is to have clearance for customs in America in Dublin. Deputy O'Donovan said Shannon Airport was the first in the world to have that facility and it was not driven by the airport authority at the time. I welcome the fact that a Cork man is in charge of the DAA but it might cause some concern for us in Shannon.

Mr. Ó Ríordáin seems to be clearing the ground to avoid a clash with the Government in regard to its policy on chief executive salaries. We know how important it is to get the right people but every semi-State body and company in the country can states that. Nonetheless, a cap has been put on chief executive salaries. Is it a serious impediment to getting the right calibre of person to drive forward the plans he has initiated?

How can customer service and relationships be improved at Dublin Airport? It is not the worst in the world but significant improvements can be made. Many people do not travel on a regular basis but rather a couple of times a year and find they have some difficulties negotiating the airport in terms of the queueing system. If people have a lack of familiarity with IT then bookings can create problems. One does not seem to encounter the same problems in other airports internationally. More staff seem to be available to direct people and it is easier to travel through those airports.

I ask Mr. Ó Ríordáin to address the cost of short-term parking and airport charges in general and tell us if he has any good news for customers.

Mr. Pádraig Ó Ríordáin

I thank Deputy Coonan. I am from Cork and my mother is from north Kerry, and my spiritual home is Thomond Park. As a result, I believe-----

Mr. Ó Ríordáin is safe.

Mr. Pádraig Ó Ríordáin

I am, therefore, very conscious of the importance to each of the communities of the separation of the airports, if separation is to be carried out correctly.

I am not hiding behind Government policy. The Booz report, a very extensive investigation has just been carried out. There has been significant interaction between the communities and various stakeholders regarding each of the airports. It goes beyond my competence to second-guess any of that. The important point is that a coherent decision must be made on the future of the airports. A lot of work has been done on the report and it should, at least, form a good basis for decision-making.

If there is to be a separation, it must occur in a manner that is actually effective for each of the airports and which works in a stable, viable way for each in the longer term. That is the part to which I can contribute. I am not sure I have much more to contribute on the policy question.

I was asked about Aer Lingus and Ryanair and my participation. I did not participate regarding issues between Ryanair and Dublin Airport, for example. My firm acts for Aer Lingus. I do not do any work for Aer Lingus personally and have not done so. I did much earlier in my career, going back eight or nine years, but I have done no work personally for Aer Lingus since. As a result, I am relatively distant from all of that.

It is correct to state that for Ireland Inc. to prosper in regard to passenger numbers, etc., there ought to be good relationships between each of the airlines. I understand that from an operational perspective, there are very good relationships between them. Clashes and discussions arise over how to allocate airport charges, for example. That is a normal part of business.

There will be no clash with the Government on the cap. The Dublin Airport Authority, with me as chairman, will comply with the cap, whatever it may be. I was asked what I believe in regard to it and am responding purely from a business perspective. If I were director of Paddy Power and asked my priorities in choosing a new chief executive, they would reflect what I said earlier. If there is a salary cap, it will serve as a real impediment in choosing the kinds of people desired. That is a fact. The argument is often that the Taoiseach is paid a certain sum and it is asked as a consequence why anybody else should be paid more. There is real logic to that in some ways because one must ask whether there is any person more important in determining the future of the country and the decisions to be taken. The answer, of course, is that there is none, but salaries are not an indicator of the value of a person or of what a person brings to a particular role; they indicate a market value. It is like asking whether an apple is inherently better than a grapefruit. It is not, but grapefruits are more expensive because there are fewer of them in the world.

When we advertise the position of chief executive, the types of people who will apply internationally are very likely to be on much greater packages than what the salary cap would allow. This suggests we are very unlikely to be in a position within the international competitive market, over which have no control, to attract some of those people. We might get lucky and attract somebody who really wants to come back to the country and who would do it for the capped salary. Nobody will be happier than me if that happens. However, as a country we need to be very competitive in the areas in which we can be. My experience over 20 years is that a good chief executive makes an enormous difference.

On customer services, I found it very interesting to examine the statistics. To a certain extent, my experience of the airports would be a little bit similar to what was indicated. The reason is that, in the period 2005 to 2007, overcrowding in Dublin Airport was such that one got used to service being hard to achieve. However, what one gleans from the statistics is extraordinary. In 2007, Dublin Airport Authority's airport was the worst of the 26 reviewed by the international body in terms of customer service in Europe. It is now the third best. Since 2007, a very short period, Ireland has risen from a very low rank based on the experience of passengers coming to Ireland to the top ranks. This is one reason I am very impressed with what the authority has achieved. The position has changed a lot and I hope it will bed down even more.

I was asked about parking charges and airport charges. The airport charges are regulated and the regulator evaluates them. The current airport charges are very competitive and are among the lowest in Europe. That struck me very forcefully when I read all the relevant material. It is not a point of which I was passively conscious. Parking charges are very much a commercial matter and I do not know enough about them at this stage to comment. My observation on going to Dublin Airport is that the car parks are full nearly all the time. From a business perspective alone, this seems to indicate they are not radically overpriced. That said, that is only my initial impression.

I look forward to no clashes between Mr. Ó Ríordáin and Mr. Michael O'Leary.

Mr. Pádraig Ó Ríordáin

I could not comment on that.

There would be something wrong if there were no clash.

I welcome Mr. Ó Ríordáin. Taking up where Deputy Coonan left off, I find it difficult to comment on an organisation that described my appointment as a crony appointment. Therefore, I respect Mr. Ó Ríordáin's refusal to make any further comment.

On a more serious note, an issue probably arises over the fact that Mr. Ó Ríordáin's company, Arthur Cox, represents the DAA legally. Could Mr. Ó Ríordáin outline how he intends to dissociate himself from criticism over being both a representative of a firm and chairman of the DAA? It is important that this be clarified. Mr. Ó Ríordáin has a good opportunity to do so today. I look forward to his doing so.

With regard to the board, I understand there are but four or five members at present. Mr. Ó Ríordáin said he has not yet had the opportunity to attend a meeting of the board. One of the worker-directors is currently acting as chairman. When Mr. Ó Ríordáin has an opportunity to sit at the board, presumably in the next couple of weeks, what strides will be made to appoint a full board? When one sits on incomplete boards, one does not recognise them as functioning. While it is a matter for the Minister to deal with this issue, how does Mr. Ó Ríordáin intend to intervene to ensure the board is filled to capacity as soon as possible?

Mr. Ó Ríordáin said it could take up to nine months to appoint a CEO. Can he not apply pressure to ensure this period will be reduced? To have an organisation such as the DAA operating for nine months without a CEO sends out all the wrong signals to the market and business world.

Mr. Ó Ríordáin set out six or seven challenges, one of which was to reduce costs. When he was asked about this, he neglected to elaborate. Could he outline his view on how costs could be reduced at the airport? This will be of concern to the employees and the taxpayer, all of whom will want to know Mr. Ó Ríordáin has good ideas that will not necessarily have a negative impact on employees and which can, in the longer term, provide a better dividend.

Mr. Ó Ríordáin managed to duck the Cork and Shannon issue very well and I compliment him thereon. He is not going to commit either way. When he said he was a Corkman, I was a little worried that his views might be coloured. As long as they are only coloured in regard to hurling, I, as a Tipperaryman, do not mind.

Mr. Pádraig Ó Ríordáin

While Arthur Cox is probably the primary law firm that works with the Dublin Airport Authority it is only one of the many. The rules in respect of any board member having any personal interest in its business are well developed in company law and the Department of Finance guidelines. If a conflict of interest emerged, I would excuse myself from the boardroom. That applies to all State entities under the rule of the Department of Finance.

If Arthur Cox is the main legal adviser to the DAA, will Mr. Ó Ríordáin be jumping in and out of regular DAA board meetings?

Mr. Pádraig Ó Ríordáin

I have never done any legal work for the DAA.

Not Mr. Ó Ríordáin personally but the company for which he works, Arthur Cox, the main legal adviser to the DAA. When legal issues come up at a DAA board meeting, Mr. Ó Ríordáin will have to vacate the room. This issue has come up in the media and an accusation has been made about this appointment. It is important to have this matter cleared up for once and for all in favour of and out of respect to Mr. Ó Ríordáin. Will he provide more detail as to how this will act out?

Mr. Pádraig Ó Ríordáin

For example, if Arthur Cox gave advice to the DAA board, then I would not have a conflict as the advice is for the benefit of the DAA. An issue would arise if the board was looking at a tendering process and Arthur Cox was selected as the adviser to the DAA. Then there would be a conflict because I would be part of a business which is being considered itself for the DAA. In short, an issue would arise if a decision was made about Arthur Cox itself and not over any advice Arthur Cox may give the board.

Is Mr. Ó Ríordáin satisfied with that?

Mr. Pádraig Ó Ríordáin

Yes. Not only am I satisfied with that but it is the established practice.

I thank Mr. Ó Ríordáin for clearing that up.

Mr. Pádraig Ó Ríordáin

I thank Senator Landy for giving me the opportunity to clear up this important point.

When the State Airports Act was introduced, many directors were appointed at the same time and all of their terms ran out together. There is a significant job to be done to reconstitute the board. I have spoken to the Minister on this but it is his function to appoint the board. I understand he will do this soon.

I agree the quicker the appointment of a chief executive is done the better. However, one cannot put too much pressure on the system because it does not work. There are various stages to this. First, the role has to be advertised along with a search process to identify suitable candidates. After that, there is the interview process which will take some time, particularly if there are international candidates. After a selection is made, the candidate could have a six-month or three-month notice period with his or her current employers. No matter how efficiently one goes at this, it is surprising how quickly the time is consumed. Nine months is reasonable and efficient.

We are much better off spending an extra month or two to get the right person for the chief executive role. The appointee will be in place for a long time and will have a heavy influence on DAA's performance over the next several years. It is a balance between not having an interregnum while being flexible enough to get the right person.

I did not get into the specifics of reducing costs because that is very much an operational issue. Looking generally at its accounts, it is clear cost reduction must be a strong theme for the board. However, as chairman I will not be coming up with individual ideas as to how to reduce costs. That is very much a job for the executive which presents it to the board.

The forthcoming Booz report on the DAA has the potential to make a significant change to Mr. Ó Ríordáin's job. Coming from Cork qualifies him for the job besides any other factor. With regard to the earlier comment about Steve Staunton and Deputy Dooley's aside about Jack Charlton, he was not our first choice either. The rest is history after that.

In the south, people regard the current relationship between Cork and Dublin airports as symbiotic. The Booz report will go some way in dealing with this. The report may have a more severe or determined position on Shannon Airport. We need to have three national airports competing but not putting each other out of business at the same time.

The DAA has moved into presentations on airport management in Moscow and India. With the current structuring of the company, the question arises, however, which airport does this? Does Cork Airport go to Rio de Janeiro? Does Shannon Airport go to Guatemala? Is the DAA going to get the slice of the action while the other airports are locked out?

We will get a better understanding of the DAA when the Booz report is published. Mr. Ó Ríordáin needs time to get his feet under the table to familiarise himself with the authority's operations and the implications of the report. There is also the outstanding issue of the appointment of a chief executive officer. I propose that when these three factors have been addressed, Mr. Ó Ríordáin attends the committee again.

I welcome Mr. Ó Ríordáin to the committee. It is probably the biggest interview board anyone ever sat on before.

Everything is not rosy at Dublin Airport. I only know what I read in the newspapers. When Deloitte did a forensic audit of the DAA's accounts, it found while there was a €33 million profit, there was also a €31 million debt to be paid by 2018. How will the DAA do that? That is a big question. The chief executive will be working with Mr. Ó Ríordáin in drawing up plans on how to do that and I would not expect Mr. Ó Ríordáin would have the answer to that, but the next time he comes in I would like to see a plan for 2018. It is not too far down the road, but it must be done.

Does Mr. Ó Ríordáin intend to produce a paper on the direction of the type of person the board is looking for in a chief executive? It is nearly getting as bad as footballers, where €31 million is paid for a certain type of footballer. It is much more difficult to learn how to score a goal than to be a good businessman or chief executive. If one looks at the output from Harvard University, there are many more executives coming out than there are good footballers. I would cite that and ask whether it must be somebody who has already had the experience of large salaries in aviation or somebody with a good head who could have read up and learned in another sphere but who might not demand as large a salary. The latter is a possibility. If we stick to the need for it to be somebody who has experience in running an airport, the pool will be so small that one must pay big bucks for him or her. When a Government - Mr. Ó Ríordáin stated he would fall in with Government policy - brings in a policy of caps on salary, it is a bad omen if the first action an airport authority takes is to break the cap. There are many ways to skin a cat. It is stated that if one pays peanuts one gets monkeys, but there are many who might be considered monkeys who are very good.

Performance related bonuses would be an issue that would have to go by the wayside. If one comes in, one is paid to do a good job. One is expected to do a good job and one is expected to give a good performance. I ask Mr. Ó Ríordáin his view on performance-related bonuses, not in the past but for the future.

Mr. Ó Ríordáin stated he had met and is working with the previous executive, Mr. Declan Collier. I welcome the fact that they have a good relationship and that Mr. Ó Ríordáin will work with him. I pay tribute to Mr. Collier for what he has done for the airport in the past because it has grown. When I come in to Dublin Airport now, I look at it and say it is fantastic. As for the T2 building, I will not even go there. I will not repeat anything Mr. Michael O'Leary says about it, but Mr. Ó Ríordáin will have to work with him as well because he is a good businessman who has done a great deal for this country. Mr. Ó Ríordáin will develop a good relationship with him, but the fact that Mr. Collier has gone to London City Airport bodes well considering that is one of our prime targets for interchangeability of passengers. The questions on customer services and Arthur Cox were well answered and I think all the other questions have been answered.

First, I congratulate Mr. Ó Ríordáin on the manner in which he has addressed the questions today. I believe he has spent a great deal of time briefing himself on and familiarising himself with the role and, at present, he is only chairman designate. Considering those who have been before the committee in the recent past, the questions, in fairness, have been comprehensively answered.

Regarding the region I come from, no more than the Chairman, the Dublin Airport Authority and its predecessor, Aer Rianta, did a considerable amount of damage to the mid-west and particularly the west of Ireland in the handling, marketing and management of Shannon Airport over many years. A limbo-type situation has emerged. Even with the change in name from Aer Rianta, it was left hanging out there. As the Dublin Airport Authority, it had responsibility for this and it did not have responsibility for that, and the two other airports were kind of add-ons as if the authority got around to them in due course. It sent out all the wrong signals.

The week before last I was down in Shannon Airport. It is one of the finest pieces of infrastructure in the country and the car park was one third empty in the immediate aftermath of Christmas. Whatever the decision the Government comes up with, I look forward to the possibility of Mr. Ó Ríordáin coming back again in the near future, as the Chairman stated, when the Booz report is published and people have had a chance to digest it. Whatever is contained in the report, there needs to be certainty and it needs to come sooner rather than later because the west is being ignored to the benefit of the Dublin Airport area.

Mr. Ó Ríordáin stated at the outset that his experience in aviation was generated primarily as a service user. That is a great advantage because there is no risk of, for want of a better term, insider trading. Emirates has arrived now in Ireland. His experience is a great advantage, whether it is on the length of time it takes one to get through passport control, the length of time it takes for the bag to arrive at the conveyor belt or the fact that the bus from Terminal 2 does not go to the car park and one must walk back to Terminal 1 to get the bus to go one, two or three miles out the road to pay extortionist car-parking charges. I note Mr. Ó Ríordáin stated that the car-parking charges were not extortionist, but, in fairness, there is a problem when one is paying more for a car to sit in the middle of a field than for the airline ticket. All of those matters add to the experience. What I would like to see Mr. Ó Ríordáin doing as chairman is engaging with his counterparts in Fáilte Ireland and with the airlines, such as Aer Lingus, Ryanair, British Airways, asking what is their passenger experience and how can the DAA make it better. I suppose we all have had this experience when going abroad. One's first initial impression of a country is one's experience at the airport. One's abiding memory might be the fact that the air-bridge was not brought to the plane, the plane missed its slot and one was left sitting around the airport for two or three hours with screaming children, etc. The airport authority and the management of the airports have a significant bearing on the psychological message with which passengers are left as to whether they had a good experience in Ireland and the DAA's role is considerable in that regard. The fact that the DAA is a monopoly in Dublin probably does not help in some ways because of the view that passengers will come back anyway. Maybe they will not come back. Fundamentally, that is the point. We cannot afford anymore to be sloppy. Even in Dublin Airport, and Shannon Airport and Cork Airport, sitting around having checked-in, one decides to go for a full Irish breakfast and it is the worst meal one has ever eaten, but one must eat it because there is nothing else and there is no proper competition. Those are the details that matter at the end of the day. The travellers' experience of how they feel going through the airports that we all own is fundamentally important to how we will portray ourselves to the rest of the world as a holiday destination, as a place to do business and as a place that is welcoming.

I wish Mr. Ó Ríordáin well. It is not an easy job he has taken on but I note the experience that he brings to the table. Maybe some members of the committee are disappointed with the comprehensive manner in which he handled the questions. He certainly allayed members' fears and some of the fears in the media.

I, too, thank Mr. Ó Ríordáin sincerely for coming here today and wish him the best of luck in his new role. I welcome his frank answers to the questions posed. Having looked at his CV, heard his remarks today and read his statement last night, I am confident that his type of expertise will be important in his position. I look forward to seeing how it works out for him.

I welcome the fact that Mr. Ó Ríordáin will take his time in recruiting the CEO. I want to ask is this something that he sees himself being hands-on with in terms of the interview process because the relationship between the chairman and CEO will be key. I would like to see Mr. Ó Ríordáin being part of the interview board.

The relationships Mr. Ó Ríordáin will need to build with the airlines and all of the other players within the organisation will be important because, as Deputy O'Donovan stated, the experience of our own people at the airports as well the experience of the visitors is critical for us as a nation. It is a window onto ourselves for visitors when they come to Ireland to see how our airport is running. If the airport is running well, that is a great first impression to get and it will add to their overall positive experience here because the airport is the first point of contact for many people. Excellent customer service is no more than we, as a people, deserve.

Given where I am from in Offaly, I am concerned about regional access. I have choices regarding access to an airport between Shannon, Cork and Dublin. Whichever way, I am looking at between two and three hours, whether by road or by rail and road. I wonder whether Mr. Ó Ríordáin might be thinking about any type of regional access for users in the midlands. The context in which I put the question is a planning application which has been granted permission in the midlands for a considerable regional hub for China. I see there being a great deal of traffic between Europe and the midlands and between China and the midlands in the future and the regional access that will be needed between those three airports will be critical for the success of that hub, which, I believe, will be transformative. I acknowledge that the planning process is ongoing and that objections have been raised to it. The question relates to the regional element of Mr. Ó Ríordáin's role and whether he will be developing policies around it. It is something we need to examine now rather than when the requirements suddenly emerge.

Mr. Pádraig Ó Ríordáin

I thank Senator Keane for her kind comments. Reports like the one produced by Deloitte are valuable in providing me with fresh information as I come into the company. By looking under the floor boards, the Deloitte report, along with the report compiled by Booz, inform my understanding of the matters arising.

I understand the argument against paying chief executives too much money. I hope to be in a position to find somebody who realises we need to be constrained in this regard. However, we are operating in a competitive environment and, while there are fewer footballers than there are good chief executives, there are more companies than teams. A State company cannot offer the share options which almost every public company provides. It is not only a question of salary, therefore, because the packages offered elsewhere are strikingly dissimilar from the pay cap.

We do not need to restrict our pool of candidates to the chief executives of other airports. Declan Collier was not an airport chief executive before he moved to the DAA. My preference is to conduct a recruitment process that is broader than airport chief executives but a candidate who is able to manage a company as complex as Dublin Airport will be valued by other companies. The question arises of how we can compete not only on the basis of money, but also in terms of other aspects, such as the job's structure and what it does for Ireland.

The problem with performance related bonuses is that they have not necessarily been sufficiently stretched or defined. Purely from a business point of view, the case can be made for paying a bonus to an individual who does something exceptional that creates considerable additional value. That is outside my control, however, because it is a matter for Government policy.

Like Deputy O'Donovan, I was struck by the name "Dublin Airport Authority" because we are more like an Irish airports authority. The Deputy asked whether we should in fact be calling ourselves an authority rather than a company given that we are a commercial entity. Our name comes from the State Airports Act 2004. The thinking at the time of that Act was that there would be a quick separation into three boards and the Dublin Airport Authority would be distinct from Cork and Shannon. That did not happen, however, with the result that legacy legislation does not reflect a different reality. I am encouraged by the plan to resolve the issue by putting in place a proper structure for each of the airports, including Shannon in particular. I have spent a lot of time in the United States and I always flew from and returned to Shannon Airport. I agree that it is a fantastic element of infrastructure but the question we must address is how to optimise its effectiveness. The Booz report goes a long way in analysing that issue and my contribution will be to ensure the separation is completed as effectively as possible, if that is what the Minister decides. It must be done in a way that ensures all the elements are viable and structured strongly enough to last a long time.

In regard to the experience of travelling through our airports, I have investigated the people who pass through our facilities. Last year, the US President, Barack Obama, and the Queen of England travelled through our airports. I doubt they had to use the terminals, however. The first impression visitors receive at our airports is enormously important and this is one of the reasons that good terminals at Shannon, Cork and Dublin are desirable. There is always room for operational improvement, however, and Dublin Airport, with which I am most familiar, is constantly evolving. There are bound to be wrinkles in our operations which have to be ironed out but, from an outsider's perspective, I was struck by the fact that Terminal 2 could be built over a short period of time in a busy operational airport with few accidents and no operational problems on opening. In comparison, Terminal 5 at Heathrow Airport was an absolute disaster when it opened. The need for further development is only to be expected but at least the issues arising are manageable. The infrastructure in Dublin and our other airports is working. When systems work, we take them for granted, but what was produced is impressive by the standards of any business.

I entirely agree that the DAA needs to work with other stakeholders, including Fáilte Ireland. There are close connections between our executive and the other entities and they speak to each other a lot. In regard to international airlines, DAA has attracted Emirates, which is a significant development for Ireland. Traditionally, the DAA has enjoyed a number of connections to other parts of the aerospace industry, including airlines and other airports. This is something Irish people are good at but we will need to leverage it further. I intend to focus on this area from a board perspective.

I agree it is essential that we take the time to find a new chief executive officer. This search will form a significant part of my role over the coming months. It is one of the central functions to which a chairman should attend and I will be hands on not only in the interview process, but also in the search and in defining the type and scope of person required.

I am not familiar enough with the issues pertaining to the midlands and Offaly to comment. I do not know whether the DAA has been tasked with any function in regard to that development.

I thank Mr Ó Ríordáin for his presentation and his comprehensive responses to members' question. Is it agreed that the committee will inform the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport that we have concluded our discussion with Mr. Ó Ríordáin and that we will forward a copy of the transcript of the meeting to the Minister for his information? Agreed.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.30 p.m. until 2.15 p.m. on Tuesday, 17 January 2012.
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