JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE ENVIRONMENT, TRANSPORT, CULTURE AND THE GAELTACHT debate -
Tuesday, 14 Feb 2012

NSCDA: Discussion with Chairman Designate

Chairman

I welcome Mr. Sean Benton, chairman designate of the National Sports Campus Development Authority, NSCDA, and thank him for his attendance. Before we begin proceedings, I draw his attention to the fact that, by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if you are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and you continue to do so, you are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of your evidence. You are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and you are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, you should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment upon, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or any official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Having said that, I now call on Mr. Benton to address the committee.

Mr. Sean Benton

I thank the Chairman and members for the opportunity to make a presentation and explain a little about my background. I have circulated my presentation, and as members have had a chance to consider it, I will not go through it line for line, but am happy to answer questions.

I retired from the Office of Public Works, where I held the post of Chairman and prior to that I was a Commissioner. As a Commissioner in the Office of Public Works I had responsibility for the State property portfolio, procurement, flood relief schemes and for the heritage services. I was involved in major projects from Leinster House 2000, the Aviva Stadium and other cultural institutions, as I have listed. Before I joined the Office of Public Works, I was director of finance in the Department of Health. During the course of my career in that Department, I had responsibility for a range of areas from acute hospitals, services for the elderly and for people with disabilities. I was involved in the commissioning of a number of major hospitals, in particular Tallaght Hospital. I have been involved in a number of areas since I retired. I chair the board of Our Lady's Hospice and Care Services Harold's Cross and Blackrock. I was a member of the authority and I chaired the operations company that looks after the aquatic centre. I am involved as a director of the Wexford Festival Trust, which encompasses Wexford Festival Opera. I do some work on the audit with the Department of Health and I chair a group set up by the Minister for Education and Skills to develop a memorial to the survivors of institutional abuse. I am also a director of Glenbeigh Group.

Let me tell you the reason I am particularly attracted to the National Sports Campus Development Authority. The campus has been evolving for a number of years, but the main project people associate with it is the National Aquatic Centre, which I think is a world class facility. I will talk about it in depth later. A great many other projects are happening on the site in Abbotstown, of which people may not be aware generally. The Football Association of Ireland, FAI, has established its headquarters on the campus and the Irish Institute of Sport and the authority staff are housed there. A major project is now under way to house the 19 national governing bodies involved in sport. A renovation project for Abbotstown House, a protected structure on the site, for which the State has responsibility is at a preliminary stage. I see a great opportunity to develop the campus on a phased basis, although I am very conscious of the general economic situation and the availability of funding for any of these projects. An incremental phased development of the facility will be possible and there are funds in place to ensure a roll out of the projects I mentioned.

My vision is that we will have a sports campus of which the country can be proud, universally accessible for all athletes and sports people, where they can develop their full potential and compete on the international stage. A project of this nature cannot be exclusively for elite athletes but must incorporate a community gain. I see great opportunity for promoting public access and use of the facilities, providing specific facilities such as all-weather pitches to the local community. A project that I am attracted to because of my involvement in heritage services, is the prospect of developing in conjunction with Fingal County Council, the parkland and leisure area. There is a wonderful arboretum around Abbotstown House. The combination of the parkland and sports facilities development is a very attractive prospect.

I can go on in detail, but members may prefer to ask question and I will be happy to elaborate on any aspect of the project.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

I welcome Mr. Benton. I have known of his reputation for a considerable period and he is more than well suited to this endeavour. I am delighted to see that the experience he has developed over a lifetime in a particular area of public service will continue to be of benefit to the State and its citizens. As an aside, there is concern about the brain drain from the public service due to the forced voluntary redundancies that are taking place with the loss of the knowledge and experience that has been built up. It is fitting that Mr. Benton has chosen to accept the request from the Minister to take on this important role. His experience as an architect, in addition to his work across a myriad of areas, particularly in the Office of Public Works, which has a diversity of activity, will stand him in good stead.

It is a difficult time to continue this development because there is a lack of money. Does Mr. Benton believe there is a potential to attract funding from philanthropy or other sources, so that the taxpayer may not be required to cough up at this stage? Of course, it will be a requirement for the State to continue to fund the projects.

Mr. Sean Benton

I thank the Deputy for his comments. The challenge for the new authority will be to fully explore and exploit all those possibilities. The Minister has made seed money available, which will allow the new authority to put in place infrastructure, such as the provision of an access road, drainage and lighting. That money is available for a priority project of the new authority. I see that being put in place quickly. That will act as the catalyst to draw in the other field sports, which can develop their own patches within the overall development control plan. Discussions with the sports authorities are ongoing and some have progressed further than others. I would be confident that we can make progress, in some cases faster than others, particularly with bodies such as the GAA, the IRFU, the FAI and the Irish Hockey Association.

The Government has also identified the need for an indoor training facility, which would include an athletics track and a facility for all the other sports that require indoor training facilities. We must explore all opportunities, be it partnership arrangements, philanthropy or if there are other assets which could be used to bankroll the type of development required. The are 500 acres in Abbotstown but not all of that would be required for the campus purpose or for the parkland. There may be opportunities to use the balance of some of that land which has not been identified for any development. That is the challenge for the new authority.

I would be more optimistic than pessimistic about this project. I have been involved in projects in the past when no money was available where we invested in drawing up a development control plan, securing planning permission and incrementally picked of the elements involved piece by piece within a well defined overall project. Members will be able to identify many projects around the country where that has happened. I would be confident about this one. That is the reason I want this job. I believe I can bring something to it. The kind of experience I have equips me with competencies to explore the issues the Deputy mentioned.

Deputy Sandra McLellan

I take this opportunity to welcome Mr. Sean Benton and thank him for his presentation. His CV speaks for itself and he brings a wealth of experience to the role. What does he consider to be the major challenges in his new role and how does he propose to overcome them? How would he summarise the evolution of the sports campus project to date? How does he propose to maximise the development of facilities by their use by as broad as range of people as possible, including people from disadvantaged areas or people with disabilities? What does he consider to be role of the National Sports Campus Development Authority, NSDCA, in terms of helping athletes reach their peak? Does he consider there is any possibility of getting any more teams to prepare for the London olympics at the Abbotstown site? How will he work with the various national governing bodies, including those not due to be located at Abbotstown?

Mr. Sean Benton

I may not have picked up all the Deputy's questions but I will do my best to reply to them all and I would be happy to reply to any I might omit. I am very comfortable working with the sporting bodies. Since my retirement I have worked in a voluntary capacity with the Amateur Boxing Association in helping it to develop some strategic plans. I have worked with Dublin GAA on developing its strategic plans. In past I worked with the FAI and IRFU on the steering group to develop the Aviva Stadium. I have extensive contacts and I am comfortable in that environment.

As regards the evolution of the campus, the idea for its development was conceived in 1999 and it was 2000 or 2001 before it was approved as a project. We should be very proud of the aquatic centre. It has had a turbulent history but we have a worldclass facility. In terms of attracting international teams to Abbotstown prior to the olympics, the aquatic centre has been quite successful in doing that. The Deputy may have seen some of the publicity surrounding the American synchronised swimming team who will be based here. Teams from the UK and from Hungary will also be coming to it. A major water polo tournament will take place there, which will involve many of the olympic teams. Where one provides topclass facilities, one can attract the top class athletics. The aquatic centre is the model in that respect.

The Deputy asked how I envisage bringing community or public gain to this project and, in that respect, I would point to the aquatic centre experience. Some 2,000 people a week take swimming lessons in the aquatic centre. We have a range of attractive schemes for people who may have lost their jobs and are participating on different schemes who have time to use the centre - we make it available to them at a reasonable cost. It is made available to Swim Ireland. Athletes with disabilities have access to it. The centre is fully accessible. Whatever is one's sport or ability, there is access to the swimming facilities in Abbotstown. The same model will apply to the development of the other facilities envisaged for the campus. A critical element of the overall scheme must be that we encourage public access and use of it to the greatest extent possible, while recognising that elite athletics require specific conditions and circumstances. We have to facilitate them as well, but it is possible to marry the two.

I would have liked much greater progress to have been made but the reality is somewhat different. We do not have the financial resources to press ahead with the project. It is important to remember that we are in possession of full planning permission for phase one of the campus and the overall model has been developed. The challenge is to pick off the different elements of the jigsaw in a way that does not do any violence, as it were, to the overall vision. I believe that is possible. I would be very hopeful that early progress will be made in regard to some of the field sports.

With the arrival of all the national governing bodies, NGBs, on site, the presence of the Irish Institute of Sport and the refurbishment of Abbotstown House for the Irish Sports Council, we have a centre of excellence and a dynamic will develop with all of those people present on the one site. I am optimistic about the future. The work may take a little longer but I would be confident that significant progress will be made in the short to medium term.

Deputy Marcella Corcoran Kennedy

I welcome Mr. Benton and it is a pleasure to have him here. His CV is extensive and I have no doubt that he will bring all that experience to bear on his new role.

My first question is about the potential the campus might have for tourism. Tourism was identified in the action plan for jobs announced yesterday as one of the sectors for growth. Is that a sector Mr. Benton will identify as a target to develop and what numbers might he be able to bring into it? Given the size of the campus, that facilities that are on it and vision he has for the parkland, it appears it will be a very attractive destination. Second, what challenges does Mr. Benton envisage will arise with the merger of the National Sports Campus Development Authority with the Irish Sports Council? Does he envisage any difficulties will arise with that or how does see those will be merged successfully?

My third question relates to procurement, an area in which I know Mr. Benton has had experience. Some issues in that respect arose in the past. Has he identified where the problems were at that point and how he will address issues in that respect into the future?

Mr. Sean Benton

The first point the Deputy raised related tourism. There can be significant spin offs for that sector. We have had major championships and visiting teams at the aquatic centre and the local hotels in the Blanchardstown area have linked in with the campus and the visitors to it have availed of the hotels. It is quite an attractive centre for many of the visiting teams. They are not in the centre of the city with all the distractions that might bring but they are in a town centre with access to cinema, shopping and easy access to the campus which is only minutes away. There are opportunities there. I did not mention earlier that the site has been used already, very successfully, for school and university cross-country championships, and attracted large numbers of visitors, some of whom may have stayed over while others travelled on the day. I have no doubt there is an economic spin-off for the local community. The opportunity of hosting some of these visiting teams is attractive as it offers an opportunity for people from around the country to come along and perhaps stay overnight in Dublin. There is a spin-off, although I cannot quantify it now. There may well be some reports that identified the spin-off, but I do not have the figures to hand.

I was asked about the merger of the campus development authority and the Irish Sports Council and whether I anticipated any significant issues. There are always issues when two bodies are merged, from simple personality clashes to major problems with management structures and so on. I see no insurmountable problem in this regard. I have been involved in amalgamating bodies in the past. The two bodies have different functions at the moment, particularly at an operational level. There is the National Aquatic Centre, which is a significant employer and a hands-on operation. The sports council does not have that responsibility at the moment, but there is nothing to prevent a new body setting up an operations company along the lines of what the campus authority has at present. I do not think there are any insurmountable problems, but things will have to be teased out among the people involved and some kind of structure established. The campus authority has a small staff - there are only five or six people - while the aquatic centre has a large number of staff and is a significant employer in the area, which again has a major spin-off. There are about 60 whole-time equivalents working at the centre, and at times during the year that can equate to 100 or 110 people, including part-time lifeguards and so on. I do not see any insurmountable problems with the merger, but all of those things will need to be teased out, and there are sensitivities - particularly staffing sensitivities - that will have to be addressed.

On the issue of procurement, yes, there were problems; they have been well rehearsed in other rooms within this building. We have all learned that a public private partnership is a complex contractual mechanism. We can learn from our experiences in the past. I am not sure if there is anything specific that I can say I would not do again, but we have developed our thinking with regard to those models, and there is enough good practice out there to piggyback on.

Senator Fiach Mac Conghail

I welcome Mr. Benton, whose CV and reputation as a true public servant have preceded him. We are in great hands while he is chairman designate of the National Sports Campus Development Authority. I must put my cards on the table and say that I was employed by Mr. Benton a few times when he was chairman of the OPW, at which time I worked with him on the cultural side, but I have no other benefit in either praising or criticising him. We are lucky to have him in charge of this.

Without getting into tiny details, I would like to tease out the challenges with regard to the planned merger. We had this challenge in many other State-run organisations. Are there challenges to do with identity, staffing or branding?

One of Mr. Benton's current roles is as chairman of the operations company. What will happen when he becomes the chairman of the NSCDA? Will he remain chairman of the operations company? This is not a trick question; I would like some insight on how that will operate.

The committee should at some point visit the sports campus. We can always get the bus out. It would be worth our while in terms of highlighting the issue. There is some confusion among the public about what it is and what is should be - they feel it is the Bertie bowl or wonder whether that is gone now. We should go out to visit it at some point.

Could Mr. Benton detail his personal vision regarding the future development of the parkland and how that might be used for local communities? He touched on it, I know, but I would like to hear about his own vision.

Mr. Sean Benton

Some people think the authority is still developing a stadium. The Government decided seven years ago to abandon the idea of a stadium, so that is not part of this exercise at all. It is long gone.

The Senator asked about the challenges involved in merging the two organisations. In my experience, the difficulties always centre on people rather than functions. One can put structure and logic on the functions; I do not think there is anything insurmountable there. The sensitivities are to do with people.

Senator Fiach Mac Conghail

Will the merged body become the Irish Sports Council or the National Sports Campus Development Authority? In terms of branding, is it a 50-50 divide?

Mr. Sean Benton

Whatever name emerges, it must convey to people that the new body will continue the work both organisations are doing at present. We can come up with any kind of creative name as long as people understand that this is what the body is actually responsible for.

I would be delighted to see the committee members coming on a visit to the campus, and I undertake to facilitate that whenever it is convenient for them.

The Senator asked about the operations company. If I were appointed to this position, I would not intend to remain as chairman of the operations company. It was handled in the past almost as a sub-committee of the board. I hope I could identify someone on the new authority who could take responsibility for the operations company. There are other sub-committees as well, but that one is particularly important.

With regard to the parkland, I do not know if members are familiar with the site-----

Senator Fiach Mac Conghail

I am not.

Mr. Sean Benton

-----but down around Abbotstown House there is some very nice parkland with wonderful trees. We provided an area for the development of a hospice, which is proceeding. Those familiar with the location will know that this is a beautiful parkland setting. Based on what I have seen in other countries, being able to walk through a sports campus and into a parkland with walking and cycling routes and so on would be desirable. We developed something similar in the Phoenix Park where people can bring young kids and teach them how to cycle in a nice environment. There are other opportunities for such things as playgrounds for kids. It will be an attractive parkland and an important public amenity. For very little expense we could have a range of attractions that are complimentary to the activities that go on in the campus. I am quite excited about that prospect.

Chairman

Thank you, Mr. Benton. That concludes our consideration of this topic. Is it agreed that the committee will inform the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Leo Varadkar, that we have conducted our discussion with Mr. Benton and that we forward a transcript of the proceedings of the meeting to the Minister for his information? Agreed.

I thank Mr. Benton for meeting us today and, on behalf of the committee, I wish him well in his new role.

Mr. Sean Benton

Thank you. I look forward to seeing the members of the committee in Abbotstown as soon as possible.

The committee adjourned at 5 p.m. until 2.15 p.m. on Tuesday, 21 February 2012.