JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE ENVIRONMENT, TRANSPORT, CULTURE AND THE GAELTACHT debate -
Wednesday, 29 Feb 2012

Taxi Regulation Review: Discussion with Minister of State

Chairman

As we have a quorum of six members, including one Deputy and one Senator, is it agreed to commence the meeting? Agreed. I remind members to turn off their mobile telephones and that the joint committee is in public session. I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Alan Kelly, to discuss the recently published report on the taxi regulation review. As it is your first time before the committee, I would like to congratulate you on your appointment as Minister of State. We look forward to working with you over the coming period.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I now call on the Minister of State to address the committee.

Minister of State at the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport (Deputy Alan Kelly)

Thank you. I welcome the opportunity to discuss the taxi regulation review report, which was published on my Department's website in January. The Government-endorsed taxi regulation review report contains 46 separate actions aimed at improving standards, administration and enforcement within the taxi sector. The broad aim of the report is to increase consumer confidence in the sector and to remove rogue elements in the sector. We also want to ensure that legitimate and professional taxi operators and drivers can be rewarded fairly by operating under a regulatory regime that is adequately enforced.

The National Transport Authority is the lead agency with responsibility for implementation of the review recommendations. The NTA will make quarterly progress reports to the taxi advisory committee established under the 2003 Act and in its annual report. The NTA has taken immediate steps to respond to the publication of the taxi regulation review report. A programme office, steering group and supporting implementation group are now set up in the NTA to progress the actions. I understand that identification and planning of discrete work elements is well progressed. I have met with this group recently to receive an update on that.

I would now like to highlight measures of particular significance in the report. In the driver and vehicle licensing areas, the introduction of continuous tax compliance checking, together with comprehensive information exchange with Revenue and the Department of Social Protection will enable effective action to be taken against those SPSV licence holders who operate in violation of the relevant rules in these areas. It is also intended to transfer responsibility for licensing SPSV drivers from An Garda Síochána to the NTA. This will lead to a one-stop-shop driver and vehicle licensing area and provide a streamlined process for the overall licensing of the sector. Vetting of taxi licence applicants will continue to remain the responsibility of An Garda Síochána.

In the area of taxi vehicle licences, we will address the current anomaly whereby taxi licences issued prior to 1 January 2009 can be sold or transferred on one occasion. There will be a prohibition on the transferability of taxi vehicle licences such that, after 1 October 2012, all taxi vehicle licences will be unique to the person to whom the licence has been issued and cannot be transferred or sold to another individual. This will bring taxi licences into line with wheelchair accessible taxi licences, wheelchair accessible hackney licences, hackney licences and limousine licences, all of which are non-transferable. In the case of accessible services for people with disabilities, a booking contact centre will be piloted and evaluated and will assist in gathering better information on WAT utilization, and a website and smart phone application to facilitate self-ordering of WATs will be developed.

There will be more effective collaboration between the Garda and the NTA in the area of enforcement. There will be mandatory disqualification of persons who have been convicted of certain serious offences from holding SPSV licences. Action 22 provides for the bringing into operation of an amended section 36 of the Taxi Regulation Act 2003, which was enacted in its original form several years ago but was never given full statutory effect. An amended provision will enable an updated code to be introduced. There will be an expansion of fixed penalty offences available for use by the Garda, as well as the introduction of a system of penalty points.

The reform of the taxi rental arrangements, while continuing to permit the "full package" taxi rental market, will facilitate and encourage a more professional taxi rental market, addressing a key area of concern under the current arrangements. As regards certain consumer measures such as websites, phone applications and new complaints processes, an awareness campaign will be undertaken to inform consumers on the impact of these new initiatives and how they can be utilised by consumers. The introduction of a requirement for branding of taxi vehicles, through semi-permanent markings applied to the vehicle body, will provide greater recognition of taxis, promote greater professionalism of the industry and reduce the potential for unlicensed vehicles to operate as taxis.

Section 3.5 of the report provides an overview of enforcement and compliance matters and refers to a number of legislative changes that will be necessary to strengthen enforcement. The approach to enforcement and compliance, as outlined in the report, reflects an intensive examination of the area by the review group, which included representation from the Department of Justice and Equality and An Garda Síochána.

The enforcement regime to be adopted in future will be based on an intensified approach to tackling non-compliance, depending on the gravity of the criminal offence or the compliance failure. It will also be designed to speed up the prosecution of offenders and the administration of justice. Prosecution in court for serious offences, the use of fixed penalty offence prosecutions, and the later development of a suitable penalty points system for lesser taxi regulation breaches will enable a more effective use of resources and a speedier response to wrongdoers by enforcement officers and the courts. Furthermore, there will be a new code for the revocation, suspension and refusal of licences to tackle contravention of licensing requirements. This new sanctions regime will be critical to the successful outcome of many of the actions outlined in the report.

Some key enforcement issues mentioned will require legislation. An amendment of section 36 of the Taxi Regulation Act 2003 will be made in 2012. That will provide for mandatory disqualification of persons convicted of serious criminal offences, who will be prohibited from operating in the industry. The aim will be to strengthen the safeguards to protect passengers from danger from unsuitable drivers and to ensure passenger safety. In addition, the commencement of section 35 of the 2003 Act will allow for an enhanced sanctions regime for suspension or revocation of licences. Improvement to on-street compliance will be assisted by enabling the Garda to prosecute 12 fixed charge penalty offences through enhanced collaboration between the Garda and the NTA.

As necessary, complementary secondary legislation will be made by the NTA under section 34 of the 2003 Act, in order to clarify the sanctions regime for licence holders. The potential for suspension of a licence, subject to certain criteria of breaches of regulations, will be examined. However, as the NTA has been charged with the lead role in the report's implementation, many of the follow up actions will fall to that body. I will of course be keeping abreast of the implementation programme, while focusing on any legislative measures identified.

The reaction to the report has been generally positive. I believe that the wide-ranging actions identified offer an opportunity to rectify many of the issues that have troubled the sector. I look forward to hearing the committee's views and responding to questions.

Chairman

Thank you. Just before I turn to committee members, I welcome the report before us this morning. I would like to ask one question which relates to the issue of dealing with social welfare fraud and Revenue compliance in the sector. What liaison is taking place between the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport, the Department of Social Protection and the Department of Finance on this issue? Will we see a blitz down the line, with a high level of enforcement for a particular period, to show that the regulation is now in place and that the new rules apply?

While there is a general welcome in the industry for many of the actions in the report, there is a concern that there needs to be a sequence to the actions rather than having them all happen at one time. Full-time taxi drivers are under savage pressure to make an income at the moment. While they would certainly welcome the application of social welfare and Revenue enforcement rules, a number of the actions have cost implications to the industry and they will see the operation of their businesses becoming more expensive. This is generally welcome because it allows the professionalisation of the industry, and it allows full-taxi drivers to operate in the arena, but they feel that the costs coming down the track need to be sequenced after the social welfare and Revenue enforcements.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I am glad you asked that question, because significant progress has been made on the issue of your first question. The NTA has progressed the sharing of information between that body, the Department of Social Protection and the Revenue Commissioners. There has been quite an amount of sharing, even since the initiation of the review. That is ongoing. Initial trawls through the data show that there is a serious level of social welfare claimants operating at the moment. That is not necessarily to state that there is a huge volume of fraud, but it is something that needs to be examined. Some taxi drivers could be legitimately claiming social welfare for different reasons. It is important that we analyse the data in detail. The sharing of information with Revenue has progressed significantly and a key component of this is the use of PPS numbers as a unique identification code.

In regard to the chronology for implementation, the actions have been categorised according to whether they are short or medium term. A prioritisation schedule has been drawn up and the NTA is prioritising actions on which work already commenced prior to the establishment of the committee, such as sharing information with Revenue and the Department of Social Protection. Where legislation is required it obviously will be looking to my Department for legislative support. The NTA is working on a consultative basis and it will take due cognisance of costs and other issues for taxi drivers.

Deputy Dessie Ellis

It is not clear from the report how the issue of oversupply in the taxi industry will be addressed. Ordinary taxi drivers will be faced with a considerable burden in additional costs if the actions are implemented.

I have a serious problem with the nine year rule. I made this point previously and I thought we had reached agreement on it. If a car is tested and found to be roadworthy, this should be sufficient. The requirement to put cars older than nine years to the test every six months will impose further unnecessary costs. Some of the taxis in London and New York have been in operation for 20 years and more.

It is not clear how the vetting process will be implemented. It is not possible to fully check every driver coming into the industry. We can check drivers from certain European countries but-----

Chairman

I ask members to turn off their mobile phones as they interfere with the sound system.

Deputy Dessie Ellis

-----there is no way of checking-----

Chairman

I will have to call another speaker if Deputy Ellis does not turn off his phone.

Deputy Dessie Ellis

I did not realise it was on.

Chairman

I remind other members to turn off their phones because otherwise I will not take questions from them.

Deputy Dessie Ellis

The issue of working hours and double jobbing must be also addressed in the context of safety among drivers who have already worked for lengthy periods in their other employment.

While I do not think plates should be sold willy-nilly, there can be situations where two members of the same family share a taxi. A mechanism needs to be put in place to allow drivers who quit the industry to recoup their investment on their plates.

Deputy Alan Kelly

In regard to the nine year rule, it is important we take a consistent approach to vehicle standards. The taxi drivers and consumers on the committee were clear in their desire to see vehicle standards maintained at a certain level. In regard to the recommendation that vehicles already in the industry be allowed to remain in operation until they are 14 years old, our concern is to ensure they are maintained to an appropriate standard. This is why they will be required to take the NCT on a six-monthly basis. I believe that is a fair compromise.

Action 3 deals with working times by recommending that individuals who want to work in the industry be required to inform their employers. This is an important recommendation because employers are often unaware that an employee may be also driving a taxi for lengthy periods. The action was overwhelmingly supported by the committee.

Vetting will be conducted by the Garda on a continuous basis. Every effort will be made to gather data from other jurisdictions in respect of drivers who apply for licences. The system is not perfect but the Garda will be working to improve it.

A taxi licence plate should not have a monetary value. The NTA will offer a grace period after October 2012 for those who wish to get rid of their licences. Many of the issues arising in the industry have been caused by the commodification of licences. The committee was unanimous in its opinion that licences should not have a monetary value.

Deputy Robert Troy

I suggest that we invite taxi driver representatives covering a wide geographical area. The taxi drivers whom I consulted in Mullingar believe the consultation process is overly restricted to Dublin.

The action on mandatory credit card machines will create additional costs for taxi drivers. It will not work particularly well in rural Ireland where one must rely on wireless or radio signals. When one goes five or ten miles outside the main towns there is no signal and that will not work. The minimum fare is an issue as well.

They are also concerned about the three year rule. A new applicant must have a car under three years of age but an existing taxi driver can drive a car up to 14 years of age. After that, if they want to get rid of the 14 year old car, they can get a 12 year old car and drive it into the ground for a further two years. This is an unfair advantage for long-established taxi men as against someone new coming into the business. Will the Minister of State comment on this aspect?

At present the taxi licence is renewed every five years. I understand the Minister of State proposes to reduce this period to three years. This will bring associated costs. It costs €250 for a new licence, plus the cost of an eye test, plus the cost of a full medical examination. This amounts to €500 to renew a licence. Instead of having to pay this every five years, which is the case at present, one will be obliged to pay it every three years. The proposal will mean payments three times in a ten year period whereas heretofore it was only twice in the same period.

Deputy Alan Kelly

First, I do not know of any Minister who has met the industry as much as I have. I have probably met the industry more than a number of other Ministers put together. I have consulted widely and outside of Dublin. I have met groups from throughout the country on numerous occasions. In respect of the make-up of the committee, I was insistent that there would be representation from outside Dublin. Four members of the committee were from the industry and one of these was from Kerry. It was important that the group had a wide range of opinions, especially with regard to rural issues. I imagine Deputy Troy is aware of that.

A new advisory committee will be put in place. I will consider the make-up of it and the way in which it is put together with regard to urban and rural issues. I recognise that the issues pertinent to the taxi industry in Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Waterford and Galway are rather different from the issues pertinent in Portroe, where I come from. I know the village Deputy Troy comes from as well because I was there last week. I am well aware of the issues.

There is a recommendation in the report relating to credit cards. There will be practicality issues and we must be practical about it. Deputy Troy raised the issue of costs. It is the intention of the National Transport Authority, NTA, which has responsibility in this case, to minimise the costs placed on drivers. I stipulated as much throughout the committee deliberations. I have tried to ensure that costs are minimised for drivers in future. That is important as well.

Certain individuals will raise issues related to the age of the car on entering the industry and the nine year rule, which was also raised by another Deputy, as well as the 14 year rule and the six month NCT obligation. The view coming through strongly from consumers is that the standard of vehicle must improve. Aside from the allowances in place, we believe the changes brought about by the recommendations in the report will, over a period, bring vehicle standards to a level appropriate and acceptable. I have stated on numerous occasions in media interviews and in various contributions in the Dáil that I am strongly supportive of full-time taxi drivers. They are the bones of the industry. However, we must also consider the views of consumers. The analysis of the views of consumers suggests that the standard of vehicles must be brought up to a certain level and this is what is taking place here.

The Deputy asked a specific question about the licensing change from five to three years.

Deputy Robert Troy

That will increase costs.

Deputy Alan Kelly

If that is the case, Deputy Troy, knows something I do not know because decisions on that matter have not been made. That is a matter for the NTA. I am unsure how Deputy Troy can claim that costs will rise because the decision has not been made yet.

Deputy Robert Troy

I have heard it from taxi drivers in Mullingar. That is how I know.

Deputy Alan Kelly

They must know something that neither I, as the Minister of State, or the NTA do not know.

Deputy Seán Kenny

I welcome the report and I congratulate the Minister of State on bringing about this long overdue reform of the taxi industry. It has been widely welcomed by the industry generally. The Minister of State has grasped several nettles which have been around for a long time and of which everyone has been aware. I was a member of Dublin City Council's transport policy committee. There was a time when the city council had a role in setting the number of plates but that has long since changed. Certain practices needed to be changed and they have been grasped. There was a small cowboy element in the taxi business which gave the industry a bad name. Tackling that will make the ordinary decent taxi man or taxi woman feel better about the industry in which they work.

It is important that the consumer and the travelling public can feel safe when they sit into a taxi and can be assured that they are in a vehicle the driver of which has been vetted and which is up to a certain safety standard. The branding of vehicles is important as well. It helps to bring about the view that a new regime is in place and that the vehicles are safer. The mobile phone application by which a customer can check to ensure that the licence number is valid is welcome as well. Women have held concerns for several years in this regard and all these changes will ensure people can feel safer in taxis.

Several issues arise in respect of the selling or transferring of plates. This issue has been around for a long time. Many professional people with no relationship with the taxi industry have purchased plates in the past and rented them out. Everyone is aware of that but this is a legacy that must be dealt with. There was also the case of Michael O'Leary, who bought a taxi plate so that he could enjoy travelling in a bus lane for his personal vanity. He does not use the vehicle as a taxi but simply so that he can swan around faster than anyone else. That must stop.

Several issues arise in respect of the use of wheelchair accessible taxis. After a certain date all new plates had to be wheelchair accessible. This was welcome because people in wheelchairs had a real difficulty getting into taxis. There has been a practice whereby these vehicles have been used for purposes for which they were not designed. People go on golf outings in these wheelchair accessible taxis. Often, they are used as shuttles because they are large vehicles, rather like minibuses. They are used for shuttling people between hotels and airports or train stations. Hotels hire them in some cases. This means they are not available for someone who might need a wheelchair accessible taxi at a given time. This must be dealt with as well. In general, the report is welcome and overdue. It tackles some of the bad practices which affected the industry for the worse.

A question arises in respect of plates. There will be situations whereby a taxi man becomes ill. He is likely to be self-employed so he may rent out his taxi in order that he has an income while he is in hospital or ill. If a taxi driver dies, his widow may rent the plate because she may have no pension. Certain categories of people must rent because they will be without an income otherwise. I realise the Minister of State has consulted widely with the industry and I believe there will be further consultation. These issues can be ironed out. This is a milestone in the reform of the taxi industry and it will bring a safer industry, safer vehicles and it will be safer for people to travel in them. All of this is welcome.

Deputy Alan Kelly

The Deputy has asked some good questions. I will deal with the issue of transferability first. I have stated previously that it will come to pass that licences will no longer be transferable. It is crucial to be aware that a licence is not a commodity. I have a driver's licence, but I cannot just pass it on to someone else. Therefore, the licence should not be considered a commodity. People get the licence because they have gone through a regulatory process and anybody who wants that licence must go through that process. That is the position we must get to. Therefore, this process should not be devalued and the licence should not be treated as a commodity. There is a timeline for getting to that position and by October this year this regulation will be in place. There will probably be a grace period, but from then on licences will no longer be treated as a transferable commodity.

Chairman

Will the Minister of State expand on that and explain how it will apply to people who are multiple licence holders or multiple plate holders? How will this impact on them?

Deputy Alan Kelly

This comes under section 39, which is worth citing. It states that to move towards a more professional taxi rental industry, it is proposed to prohibit the practice of renting of taxi licences only without a vehicle. Therefore, in future the applicant for the licence must be the owner of the vehicle and must hold the licence. There are two issues here. Renting will continue because there is a need for the rental market. As the Deputy outlined, rental is necessary when somebody goes sick or a car is crashed or whatever. However, from now on the person will have to rent the full package. People will no longer just rent a licence or a vehicle. A person renting a vehicle will have to rent a vehicle that meets a certain standard, that has the appropriate technology, insurance and appropriate signage etc. The person must rent the whole package so that we no longer have the willy nilly type of operation we saw in the "Prime Time Investigates" programme.

With regard to transferability, the committee felt strongly that the willy nilly renting out of cars and licences and the transferability of licences were the two main reasons rogue elements were operating in the industry. These issues needed to be tightened up and unless we dealt with them together, we would not be able to remove the rogue elements from the industry. It is for that reason we have stipulated that from October, people will no longer be able to transfer a licence. Licences should not be a commodity. Applicants should have to go through a regulatory process in order to drive a taxi and convey passengers and the licence to do that should not be something that can be sold on from person to person.

We also needed to tighten up on the rental aspect of the industry to ensure the package that is rented out is the full vehicle package and that the person renting it is responsible for it. The proposed reforms will also ensure the sharing of information on where a vehicle is rented out to a driver so enforcement officers or consumers will be able to check at any location that the person driving the car is the person who should be driving and that the vehicle being driven is the correct vehicle. The NTA, the committee and I support the proposal for severe penalties to be imposed on those found not in compliance. It is important there is compliance because this industry serves the public. The committee received a significant number of submissions from consumer groups with serious concerns relating to safety. There were also serious concerns with regard to driver safety. It was for these reasons that rental and transferability of licences were dealt with in the manner described.

Chairman

Will the Minister of State deal with some of the points raised by Deputy Kenny, such as disability?

Deputy Alan Kelly

The Deputy referred to a particular person who had a taxi licence, but I am not sure whether that person still has a licence. Section 35 of the Taxi Regulation Act will determine that the conditions for refusal or revocation of a licence will be commenced to improve enforcement and to allow for more effective sanctions for breaches of regulations. Effectively, if people with a licence are not active in the market, they will be removed and if people do not adhere to certain standards, there will be a system in place to ensure they no longer operate in the industry.

I am delighted the Deputy raised the issue of wheelchair accessible taxis. There is an issue in this regard and the groups that spoke to the committee on this issue put forward strong recommendations. There was a process put in place by a previous Administration to ensure a supply of wheelchair accessible taxis, but it has not been fairly executed by the taxi industry. The groups which came in said that people in wheelchairs find it very difficult to get taxis. This is unacceptable. We are considering a process that will provide a centralised number and platform for accessing wheelchair accessible taxis so where a driver with a wheelchair accessible taxi is unavailable to pick up wheelchair passengers, he must explain why. The reason the person has the licence is because it is a wheelchair accessible taxi. Also, until now, the cost of that licence was lower than that for a normal taxi. Therefore, a driver unavailable for picking up wheelchair passengers must be able to explain why he is unavailable. The industry itself must look at this issue also. We all need to be cleverer about the dispatch operation for wheelchair accessible taxis. We must meet the needs of people in wheelchairs because currently they are not being met as they should be. It is inappropriate that the industry has let these people down.

Deputy Paudie Coffey

Much of what I wanted to say has already been said, so I will not repeat it. I acknowledge that the Minister of State engaged with all of the stakeholders, both those in the industry and consumers, and that he took on board all points of view before taking action. I welcome the fact that specific actions to be taken have been set out with their objectives and I am sure the Minister of State will revisit those to review progress.

The Minister of State is aware of the concerns within the industry about the rogue elements and of the importance of addressing the issues of identification with regard to licences and drivers. I note from the report that new technologies and smart phones, etc., will be used in this regard. Will it be possible for ordinary citizens to get verifiable information when they approach a taxi that the person driving it is who it should be? If that is the case, we will succeed in driving out the rogue element from the industry. Some genuine taxi operators who have been in the industry for many years have been pushed out of the system because of these rogue elements. We need to have full confidence in the system and I know that is what the Minister of State is trying to achieve. Will he advise me whether there is new technology that can be used to enhance consumer confidence and reinforce genuine operators?

The Minister of State referred to spot checks and enforcement and said there will be a wider range of fixed penalties where people are out of line. I welcome this as it will enhance consumer and operator confidence. I had proposed to ask about disability, but the Minister of State has addressed that issue.

Deputy Alan Kelly

Let me be clear that information provision and enabling and empowering consumers is an issue on which I agree with Deputy Coffey. It is a priority. It is something that is going to happen and we need to embrace it. The day of providing information in the form of a leaflet in the back of the car is still here, but we are moving on from all of that. I accept that the rogue elements which were mentioned need to be dealt with. The use of information technology can assist our efforts to do that. We will reach the stage when one will be able to type into one's electronic device the number of a small public service vehicle and verify that the person who should be driving it is driving it and that the vehicle meets all the requirements. There are applications that facilitate such verification. Critically, this will empower consumers to deal with these rogue elements. We cannot continue with what is going on at the moment. We have to address the safety of consumers and drivers. We should be frank about it - there are issues on both sides.

The National Transport Authority is responsible for dealing with these issues. It can receive the assistance of private operators in the taxi industry. Technologists who are not in the taxi industry providing solutions can also provide solutions. Some solutions are already out there. I will mention a good example in Deputy Coffey's own county. Local taxi drivers have signed up to an application that allows consumers to find out where the nearest taxi is. I have seen a demonstration of how the system works. It is quite good. I could mention loads of other examples. Technology is embracing the taxi industry. The industry needs to embrace the technology. We want to provide the information that is needed to create these platforms and empower consumers. Obviously, certain people will continue to need the information that is provided in the back of the car etc. That does not detract from the fact that from the perspectives of enforcement and regulation, the industry needs to be cleaned up and will be cleaned up. Consumers will help us through their use of technology.

Enforcement is a critical issue. The enforcement officers from the National Transport Authority work very hard to ensure the law is enforced. Many Deputies will be aware that when enforcement officers, working with the Garda, appear in certain areas, an amazing amount of rogue operators disappear from the streets. Many taxi drivers, particularly in cities like Dublin, Waterford, Galway and Limerick, will tell one they receive their best night's income after enforcement officers have made an appearance. We are familiar with the anecdotal evidence. Before Christmas, over a two-hour period on a single street in Dublin, gardaí encountered 19 taxi drivers who did not have the appropriate documentation etc. They should not have been there. That goes to show the element we are dealing with.

We are empowering the Garda. The force will have a larger role to play. I was delighted that two senior gardaí were on the committee. I have been in contact with the Commissioner. I have spoken to the Minister for Justice and Equality. An official from the Department of Justice and Equality was also on the committee. The Garda will now be empowered to enforce 12 fixed fine penalties. That is crucial.

An element of fairness needed to be restored to the penalties regime. We needed to introduce graduated penalties rather than imposing a €250 fine on a taxi driver whose vehicle happened to have a wheel on a double yellow line. It is not the same as having a defective licence or anything like that. It is a small offence. We needed graduated fines. That has been dealt with in the recommendations. In addition, section 36 of the Taxi Regulation Act 2003 will be used to ensure that people who have committed serious criminal offences will no longer be able to operate vehicles in this industry. That is absolutely crucial. The committee was very strong on it. I assure Deputy Coffey that I expect all the provisions I have mentioned will facilitate a clean-out of the industry. The appropriate people who should be driving vehicles will be driving vehicles and consumers will be empowered, as they should be.

Deputy Brian Stanley

I welcome the Minister of State and his officials. I welcome their attempts to address many of the issues that have arisen in the taxi industry over the years. I would like to bring a little humanity to the debate. When people talk about consumers, it sounds like we are at a meeting of the board of Kellogg's corn flakes or some company like that. I will talk about people as citizens and as taxi drivers.

There are significant problems in the taxi industry. I read the detail of the measures that are being proposed. Some of them are good but I am concerned about others. I fail to see the merit of the rule that will apply when a vehicle reaches nine years of age. Many other factors, such as the amount of mileage on a vehicle, have to be taken into consideration. In the last 12 months, I have clocked up more mileage than I did in the previous ten years. It depends on the average length of the runs the taxi driver is doing. Somebody in a small provincial town might not clock up very much mileage. A taxi in Dublin or another one of our cities might have very low mileage. A school bus passes my road every morning with a 1987 registration plate on it. My point is that many other factors need to be considered. The key issue is that the vehicle needs to have passed a very rigorous test.

I welcome the proposals to address the issue of vetting as well. I receive many complaints from full-time taxi drivers who are really struggling because they have to compete with people who have full-time professional jobs during the day. Some of these part-time drivers receive good salaries and allowances in State jobs and have not taken the same hit as everybody else. They pick up the cream on a Friday, Saturday and Sunday night while full-time taxi drivers drive around trying to get onto taxi ranks. It is a huge problem.

The question of over-supply is the elephant in the room. When I first became a councillor a number of years ago, local authorities had a major role in this respect. The system that was in place at that time, which involved local citizens and taxi drivers making representations to councillors, seemed to work. The local gardaí, local people and local councillors worked together. I will give an example of this problem. There are over 400 plates - limousines, hackneys and taxis - in County Laois. The population of the county is approximately 80,000, which means there is a small public service vehicle for every 200 men, women and children in the county. The same applies in most other counties. I use a taxi very occasionally. There is no way any business proposal would be approved on this basis. If one were to do some market research before starting a business in this sector, one would realise it is ludicrous to have over 400 licensed vehicles covering such a small population. Over 300 of the vehicles in question are taxis.

I have received many complaints in this regard. I was contacted in the last week by a taxi driver who has been fined by local gardaí three times recently. His crime is that he drives around the block repeatedly to try to get into the taxi rank. He cannot get into the rank because by the time he has driven around the block, the taxis have shunted up and somebody else has taken his place on the rank. Taxis end up doing the rounds around the town all night. It is bad for the environment, bad for taxi drivers and no good for citizens. It is no good for anybody. A limit has to be imposed. I do not blame the Minister of State for this. I accept that he is trying to do something about it. A wild west situation was introduced under the previous regime, with Colonel McDowell at the head of it. There has to be regulation. We know now that everything needs to be regulated. Our party said years ago that the banks should be regulated, but we were not listened to. We are now discussing a different issue. We must have regulation and a limit on the number of taxi plates in a county. At present there are sufficient taxi plates in counties Laois, Offaly and Dublin. I do not see a reference to a cut-off point. Perhaps by the end of the meeting I will be satisfied. A number of bodies deal with the taxi service. I acknowledge that a number of persons have held the post of taxi regulator since the post was established. It is very difficult to deal with the office of the taxi regulator, not alone to make a submission but even to contact the office. The Commission for Taxi Regulation was dissolved and its functions are carried out by the National Transport Authority. Now, the National Transport Authority, a new advisory committee, the Garda Síochána and local authorities all have a role. I work and think in a simple, straightforward way, and the straighter the line, the better one's chances are that things will work out. The more bodies that are put in place, the more difficult it is to try to change everything because everybody is responsible and nobody takes responsibility. I am taking the Minister as acting in good faith, that he is trying to make an impression and is doing something about this issue, which has needed to be sorted for years. I ask the Minister of State to reduce the number of bodies and agencies which deal with taxis and try to simplify the procedures. I know it is Government policy to reduce the number of wasteful quangos. It would be beneficial to simplify things and have fewer agencies to pass the buck.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I thank the Deputy for his comprehensive range of questions. Only one organisation deals with taxi regulation, that is the National Transport Authority. The taxi regulator was brought into the NTA and is now director of taxi enforcement. There is only one agency. I do not know what the Deputy meant when he referred to the multitude of groups and agencies. Taking on board what the taxi drivers said to the committee, there are now two processes by which the industry can raise concerns through the taxi advisory committee. The chief executive of the NTA must answer directly, when recommendations from the advisory committee are sent and not dealt with by the NTA. That is a very positive development. Second, there is also a process by which individual complaints can be raised. We have streamlined the whole operation. As chairperson of the committee, I stressed the need for a process to listen to drivers. I think this is much better procedure than the previous position.

The way the industry was regulated should not be personalised. We must accept that the National Transport Authority is the agency with responsibility for taxi regulation and will implement the vast majority of the recommendations. The role of the NTA must be supported in some cases by legislation, which is primarily my responsibility. I will be working very closely with it to ensure that is done. No doubt, the NTA will liaise with me on ensuring that these recommendations are implemented quite speedily. Members will note that the recommendations have short-term and medium-term timelines. In fact, none has a long-term timeline. We intend to implement the recommendations quickly.

I am delighted that Members agree with my views on vetting, and that people who have been convicted of serious offences should not be eligible for a taxi licence. This is a serious issue and it is important that anybody who has been convicted of a serious crime should not be sitting in the front of a vehicle, driving members of the public. The issue of taxi ranks is a fair question. A member of the local authorities is on the group as well. There is a proposal in the recommendations to look at the provision of part-time taxi ranks. As the Deputy said, there is an issue of supply of taxi ranks across the State, but particularly in urban areas where there is no designated area for vehicles. It is very difficult for taxi drivers when they have no place to park. To be driving around all the time is not acceptable. That is the reason there is a need to look at graduated fines instead of a significant fine of €250 when a vehicle is not parked appropriately. Drivers will become frustrated if there is nowhere to park.

Chairman

Is there a possibility that loading bays and bus zones, after the buses stop, can be opened up as part-time taxi ranks?

Deputy Alan Kelly

Exactly. The NTA in consultation with all the local authorities is looking at that suggestion. That is happening at present and I understand that it will be examined individually, area by area. There are safety issues, and one could not put a part-time rank in all of the bus parking zones.

I am very much in favour of full-time taxi drivers. I think they are the bones of the industry and they need to be supported. I said quite publicly that I believe we must create an industry that it is worthwhile to work in, where a person can earn a decent wage for a decent day's work. That means that the manner in which those who do their day's work in a very professional way is supported. The NTA has already begun to deal with the action on the Working Time Act 1997. One cannot put tachometers on taxis; it is not practical. One will deal with the fact that there are people who are working in another business and then going out and doing another job as a taxi driver. Is that safe? In many cases, I doubt it. Is it appropriate? Does the person's employer know this? The NTA is looking at that issue and has made progress on it. I spoke to the NTA on this issue yesterday and it is making significant headway in dealing with it. Employers should know when a person working for them is also working as a taxi driver. I am not aware that they do. Members will be aware of the proposed changes to signage and the roof sign. This is very important for many reasons. Professional full-time taxi drivers have nothing to worry about, because their vehicles are their business. If employers are not aware that one of their staff is working as a taxi driver as well, it will become clear when the difference in the requirements of the cars and the signage on the roof come into effect. It also means that taxis will be identifiable, which is very important. In response to a previous Deputy who asked how consumers will be empowered, the information that is required for websites or for telephones will be available on the signage.

The over supply of taxis was raised. Anybody who walks out of Leinster House and walks up the street, can see the evidence of over supply in the industry. There is also market failure in rural areas. I am sure the Deputy is well aware of that representing an area north of me. I come from a little village, Portroe, and there are no taxis there. However, in urban areas throughout the country there is over supply. Indecon, the consultants who carried out the report, stated the over supply ranged somewhere between 13% and 22%. The process for dealing with this oversupply is through regulatory measures. The idea of a cap is not acceptable. We must deal with it from a market point of view.

Deputy Brian Stanley

Why not have a moratorium?

Chairman

To whom is it not acceptable?

Deputy Alan Kelly

From a budgetary point of view, it was not acceptable to Sinn Féin because in its budget submission, no provision was made for this. It was not acceptable to your party at the time.

Deputy Brian Stanley

The budget has nothing to do with taxi drivers.

Deputy Alan Kelly

When the Sinn Féin Party members put through their budget measures for this year, they made no provision for dealing with this problem. Therefore one cannot say that Sinn Féin was going to find the money.

Deputy Brian Stanley

This is a diversion, Minister.

Deputy Alan Kelly

When Sinn Féin proposed its budget measures for this year it included no provisions for dealing with that. It cannot say it would find the money-----

Deputy Brian Stanley

This is a total diversion.

Deputy Alan Kelly

It is not.

Deputy Brian Stanley

Why can there not be a moratorium on the number of taxi plates issued? The Minister of State should give me an answer.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I will give an answer.

Chairman

Deputy Stanley, let the Minister of State respond and I will bring you back in again.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I am answering the question, but the Deputy does not like the answer.

Deputy Brian Stanley

We are talking about different issues.

Chairman

Deputy Stanley, I will bring you back in.

Deputy Alan Kelly

There are a number of issues. There is a form of moratorium in place. The only licences that are being issued are those for wheelchair accessible vehicles.

A number of people said we should introduce a buyback scheme. It would be very costly. The State is not in a position to do that, as the Deputy is well aware. There will also be issues from a competition point of view. A member of the Competition Authority came before the committee. There would also be issues from a European competition point of view. We cannot afford it. The citizen, to whom the Deputy referred, would not find it acceptable. It was not an option that would be considered.

I am very confident that the regulatory processes that will be put in place will reduce the number of taxis because they will have to meet standards. Full-time taxi drivers will have nothing to worry about because they are already meeting them. Those who do not adhere to tax or social welfare requirements will exit the market. We want to get rid of the rogue elements. The regulatory process that will be put in place will get rid of the rogue elements and deal with those who are avoiding their tax duties and those who are claiming social welfare fraudulently.

There will also be a huge strengthening of enforcement. As the Deputy has already supported, we will also eliminate those who should not be driving vehicles in the first place. Through all of those measures, we are considering reducing the volumes of taxis.

A level of education is required for those considering entering the industry as regards the level of demand. It is something that will also have to be addressed.

Deputy Brian Stanley

On the moratorium, the Minister of State gave a very confused answer. He said the only licences issued are those for wheelchair accessible taxis. He also indicated European competition law would be a factor. Is European competition law dictating that in towns like Portlaoise the taxi regulator or anybody else cannot put a cap on the number of licences? The answer the Minister of State would probably give is "Yes." I will await his answer.

On loading bays, the idea is good. Laois County Council has had a policy in place for a number of years whereby taxis double up with loading bays which are not being used at weekends. In some towns and cities it will be difficult to put in extra bays because of footpath widths and carriageways. I am familiar with some towns where the available space has been used up by mainstream parking or taxi ranks and loading bays.

I take on board what the Minister of State is saying. I am trying to deal with the issue in a fair way. Regulation will have a downsizing effect, tighten things up and make things more professional. We will still have a problem with the figures mushrooming, in particular when there is a slump and people are trying to get into any industry.

We need to be careful about loading bays. When I was on Portlaoise County Council transport committee it tried to find extra spaces and it was very difficult. We managed to get some extra spots but there were problems with the traders and members of the public. There are many issues to consider. The key issue is oversupply.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I concur with the Deputy that the key issue is oversupply. The regulatory measures to be put in place will deal with that. The loading bay issue is only a fraction of one issue. All 46 measures to which I have referred will deal with the issue. I am very familiar with Portlaoise; I was there last week.

Deputy Brian Stanley

The Minister of State was in my house the other night.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I was indeed. I am very familiar with the location of the main taxi rank the town, it is on the edge of the square. I understand the difficulties local authorities are dealing with. The NTA has produced a framework for dealing with the matter and I am hopeful it will have more dramatic impact.

The real issue is that a buyback scheme or similar methodology is not financially viable and the State cannot embrace it. Even if we went down that road, we have been told there would be issues nationally and at other levels in regard to competition. I am not aware of any political party in the State which made provision for such a measure in its budgetary submissions last year.

There is an acceptance by the majority of people that this has to be dealt with from a regulatory point of view. I will work with the NTA to implement all of the measures, such as licensing and enforcement, to ensure that happens as speedily as possible. I want to create an industry in which drivers can earn a decent wage in Portlaoise, Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Donegal and everywhere else. I also want an industry that is safe, devoid of rogue operators and provides consumers with good service.

Chairman

There are three other Deputies indicating. I will take them together because we are under time constraints. They can ask some brief supplementary questions.

Deputy Kevin Humphreys

I apologise for being late. The Dublin Port master plan was launched this morning.

If the Minister of State could examine the nine-year rule I would welcome that, especially when cars are in good condition. There can be problems but it would be helpful.

As a representative of a Dublin city centre constituency, I find taxi ranks are an enormous problem. One element of the problem is created where taxis queue around a taxi rank rather than at it, which affects taxi drivers because they are trying to pick up business. With the expansion of taxi ranks, especially in urban areas, cashflow has been created for local authorities. They are supplying more road space for taxi ranks and have to decide whether to provide parking for residents in high-density areas or generate income. If the number of taxi ranks in the city centre spirals, considering the number of taxis looking for places, has any impact on the revenue lost to local authorities been taken into consideration?

Deputy Gerald Nash

I have a straightforward question. The taxi industry and operators within it tend to be a disparate bunch. There are a number of representative organisations. Deputy Stanley referred to the Wild West. There are a few cowboys and lone rangers which are sometimes hard to reach. One can bet one's bottom dollar that as soon as the regulations contained in the review are enforced, we will all be contacted by individual taxi drivers complaining that they had not been made aware of the new requirements and obligations. Is the Minister of State in a position to apprise me of the NTA's plans to communicate with every registered taxi owner, operator or driver in the country? Such communication is going to be extremely important if we are to achieve the level of compliance required.

Deputy Marcella Corcoran Kennedy

I apologise for my late arrival. On fleet licences, I understand there are some taxi companies which have drivers working for them who may not be registered to pay tax. Does the Minister of State propose to examine the position regarding the provision of tax clearance certificates by both the person who obtains a taxi licence and the individual or individuals who might operate the vehicle for them?

Deputy Alan Kelly

Will the Deputy repeat her question?

Deputy Marcella Corcoran Kennedy

It has been suggested that there are people who are driving taxis at present and who are not paying income tax. Will the Minister of State be seeking tax clearance certificates from everyone involved in the operation of taxis? Is he considering lifting the requirement for vehicles operating as taxis to be removed from the road after nine years? In my constituency there are many people who work in less populated areas. Their vehicles are passing the NCT, etc., but they are expected to take them off the road after nine years, which is a real issue for them.

Deputy Dessie Ellis

An ordinary taxi driver should have been appointed to the review group. Is there any way whereby this matter could be addressed? Could an ordinary taxi driver be appointed to the implementation body?

There is a need for an independent appeals body to deal with decisions from the NTA. In general, I do not have a difficulty with regard to the period of the licence being reduced from five years to three. Will the fee which applies also be reduced? Given that a licence will now only be for three years, I would like to believe that the fee is going to be reduced.

Previous speakers referred to roof signs. These signs will include an electronic means of identification. Many people have stated that they will cost upwards of €500. Will any monetary incentives be provided to assist those who have been involved in the industry for a long period?

The Minister of State indicated that any new taxis would have to be vehicles which are no more than three years old. This will place a huge burden on those entering the industry. In view of the nine-year rule, taxi owners or operators will have six years in which to make up the cost of replacing the vehicle and also to make a living. The timeframe in this regard is very tight. I do not agree with the three-year limit and it is another reason for my opposition to the nine-year rule.

We are of the view that there should be a moratorium on the granting of licences. In my opinion, driving a taxi is a full-time job and the granting or renewal of a licence should preclude the person involved from partaking of any other form of employment. That should at least be the case on health and safety grounds because people are working long hours. This was highlighted in the past in the case of a bus driver who was working such hours. Taxi driving is a job and the hours are long. I do not believe, therefore, that people who work as taxi drivers should be able to have other jobs.

Chairman

The Deputy must conclude.

Deputy Dessie Ellis

The final matter to which I wish to refer is that of criminal offences. What is it proposed to do in respect of people who are involved in the industry at present and who committed criminal offences in the past? Will, for example, a cut-off point of ten years be put in place whereby if someone has not committed an offence within that period, then he or she may operate as a taxi driver? I accept that those who have committed very serious offences must be dealt with. In that context, there may be people involved in the industry who committed such offences. I return to the issue I raised in respect of the St. Andrews Agreement. Under that agreement, many republicans became involved in the taxi industry. In that context, I would not like anyone to be penalised. I refer, after all, to an agreement between two sovereign Governments. The Government must honour the agreement.

Deputy Alan Kelly

So must Sinn Féin.

Deputy Paudie Coffey

This is a case of double standards. They are either criminals or they are not.

Chairman

Sorry, Deputy Coffey-----

Deputy Dessie Ellis

Deputy Coffey should stop talking nonsense.

Deputy Paudie Coffey

Double standards.

Deputy Dessie Ellis

That is why this international agreement was put in place.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Brian Stanley

I would feel completely safe if Deputy Ellis was my taxi driver.

Deputy Dessie Ellis

Problems arose in respect of this matter in Leeson Street and elsewhere-----

Deputy Alan Kelly

I would have no difficulty getting into a taxi driven by Deputy Ellis.

(Interruptions).

Chairman

Members should cease interrupting.

Deputy Dessie Ellis

As I was saying, problems arose in Leeson Street and elsewhere because people were fined for parking their taxis illegally. There is a need to consider the position with regard to bus lanes, bus parking zones and accessibility thereto.

Chairman

That matter has already been covered.

Deputy Dessie Ellis

I know but I support what was said in that regard.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

I welcome the Minister of State and his officials. I congratulate the Minister of State on the document he has produced, which represents a welcome development in the evolution of the taxi industry. I have a number of concerns and I intend to address a couple of these. If I repeat what was said earlier, perhaps the Chairman might indicate that to me.

Chairman

I certainly will.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

I have every confidence in the Chairman in that regard. If he does not indicate that I am going over old ground, the Minister of State certainly will do so.

I would like the committee, as soon as may be convenient, to afford people in the industry the opportunity to outline their views to it. We could then, perhaps, forward a report to the Minister of State on the matter. I would like to ensure that there would be a geographic spread among those we might invite to come before the committee. Despite what the previous speaker indicated, there is a concern on the part of some in the industry that the unaffiliated taxi drivers - that is, those who work for themselves - were not represented on the review group. The Minister of State indicated that there was an individual------

Deputy Alan Kelly

There were two.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

-----or perhaps two-----

Chairman

Is the Deputy making a proposal?

Deputy Timmy Dooley

I propose that we compile a report which would be based on the evidence provided by people from the various organisations that represent taxi drivers and whom we might invite to appear before us?

Chairman

Is Deputy Dooley's proposal agreed? Agreed.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

I accept that a number of such organisations are involved and that the group which might come before us could be quite disparate in nature. However, we owe it both to those who work in the industry and to consumers to try to address certain matters.

There are a couple of issues about which I am concerned. In the context of the nine-year rule, there is a difficulty in attaining-----

Chairman

We have already covered that matter.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

I wish to make an additional point.

Chairman

If it is additional, that is fine.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

On the nine-year rule and the quality of vehicles used as taxis, the reality is that there is no credit available from the banks at present. Credit would certainly not be extended to those in an industry which is depressed. Approaching a bank manager for a loan in order to upgrade one's car is not currently a viable prospect. Perhaps we will obtain additional information on that matter when the people to whom I refer are invited to come before us.

I speak to taxi drivers all the time. There is a great deal of concern with regard to the mental health of many of them in light of the financial pressure under which they are operating. There are statistics available which indicate the number of taxi drivers who have taken their own lives. The latter happens in other sectors and I do not wish to highlight this as a major trend. However, some individuals are under extreme financial pressure. We want, on foot of the work the Minister of State is doing, to develop an industry which is sustainable. It cannot be the case that the process involved might lead us into another dark place.

There is a major issue with regard to double jobbing and part-time drivers. I recognise what the Minister of State has done in this regard in the report. He may have taken legal advice on the matter but I am not sure what is envisaged will be completely enforceable. I am of the view that we will be obliged to ensure that those who sign up for licences are prepared to work a 40 or 50-hour week or whatever as a taxi driver. The onus must be on the licensee to make a commitment to the NTA that he or she will do as I have outlined. It must not be a case of obliging the primary employer to take responsibility in this area. I am of the view that, in legal terms, this will be difficult to achieve. The Minister of State may be of a different opinion in that regard and, if so, I would be happy to hear what he has to say. In my view, further work will be required in respect of this matter.

Issues also arise in the context of the penalties that will apply and also in respect of the vetting procedures. There is a significant vetting process in place in respect of citizens of the EU. I understand that when an applicant from outside the EU seeks to be vetted, the process only begins when he or she enters the Union. We must be careful as we do not want to characterise this as some kind of a racist debate because that is not what I am hearing from the industry. Its members simply want fair play.

Deputy Ellis raised a valid point in regard to the St. Andrews Agreement and the vetting procedure that will be in place for people who were part of his organisation in the past and who rightly will face an impediment to entry into the industry. However, in the case of a person from outside the EU who came here ten or 15 years ago and has been naturalised, there is no proposal to utilise the services of Interpol to vet that person's background or what they might have been involved in, some of which is no different from what Deputy Ellis spoke about in terms of perhaps political conflict in other jurisdictions. More action is required in that respect.

More clarity is required as to how taximen or women will divest themselves of or transfer their licences at the end of their career and we need to be more sympathetic to those in the industry.

Chairman

We covered that issue earlier.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

Job done, Chairman. We will know whether it was to the satisfaction of the industry generally when its members come before us. More clarity is also required on the enforcement of penalty points incurred by those in the industry.

There are many more points I would like to make but it would probably be best to cover those as part of our contribution to the Minister of State in a more formalised report when we have had an opportunity to tease out the issues with the industry.

Deputy Alan Kelly

A volume of disparate questions has been asked again and I will not focus on questions that have been duplicated.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

The Minister of State will have to read the record to check if there are issues that he did not get to cover.

Deputy Alan Kelly

That is no problem. I will reply first to the questions that have not been asked already and I will then reply to others questions as a considerable number have been raised.

Deputy Corcoran Kennedy raised the issue of the checks in place in Revenue and that will be dealt with. That is covered in the recommendations of the report, which provides that there be a sharing of information between Revenue and the National Transport Authority and I am glad to report that this process is already under way. It is important that it is clearly signalled to everybody operating in whatever aspect of the industry, be it a person with a fleet or in a private or hiring capacity, that he or she must comply and that in terms of social welfare or Revenue this information is being shared with the National Transport Authority. That will have an impact on those in other employment, a point Deputy Dooley and other Deputies raised, in that they will cease to operate in the industry. They must be aware that if they operate a taxi as well as being in full-time employment that not alone must their employer be made aware of that but they must also meet the vehicle standards required, which they may not be meeting. Following that one wonders if they will remain in the industry. Furthermore, their social welfare and Revenue data is being shared with the National Transport Authority. That will have a dramatic impact on these people.

I accept that it is very difficult to implement the Organisation of Working Time Act in regard to this issue and there are also legal issues, which I will not go into now. We have to be practical, we cannot require that tachometers be installed in taxis. Those four or five qualitative measures in terms of the sharing of information will have a dramatic impact in this area and I want it to have such a dramatic impact. It was strongly communicated in the committee that while there is a requirement to have a certain number of part-time drivers in the industry, the issue of full-time workers who are also engaged in taking, as some Deputies said, the cream of the revenue at weekends needs to be examined.

Deputy Nash raised the important question of communications. That issue will be dealt with by the National Transport Authority. It is putting a communications process in place with the industry. The advisory committee will liaise with the National Transport Authority on a quarterly basis and it will also advise me as the Minister of State with responsibility in this area. An individual complaints procedure is also being put in place. Specifically, a communications process with the industry is being put in place by the National Transport Authority, which is a more seismic move than it has made previously in regard to the changes that are taking place. That was well received and that recommendation was strongly put forward by the committee. The issue of inactive licences was raised and the period that will apply will be reduced to one year. If a licence is not active for a year, why should it remain active?

I dealt with the nine-year rule issue. Drivers and consumers, or citizens as some would prefer to be titled, were strongly of the view that the standard of vehicle used needed to be at that level. I am aware that some Deputies have an issue with that but the 14-year rule that applies to those who are already in the industry is a help, and that is a provision that was put in place.

In case there is any misinterpretation of the make-up of the committee, there were four members of the taxi industry on it, two of whom were full-time taxi drivers, one from Dublin and one from Kerry, one urban and one rural. I thought that was a fair representation. I spoke about the appeals process. The issue of a fee and the reduction in the period from five years to three years is a matter for the NTA. No decision has been made on that, of that I am certain.

Deputy Ellis raised the issue of taxi roof signs. I accept that all costs must be minimised for taxi drivers. As a public representative, that is an important point I want to make. We will have to innovatively examine this and the NTA is innovatively examining how to deal with these issues. That matter will have to be dealt with by the NTA and it will be dealt with.

It is easier to vet people from Ireland and from within the EU as opposed to those who have come from outside the EU, but this is a matter for the Garda. We have liaised very closely with the Garda. Two members of the force and the Minister for Justice and Equality were on the committee. I have spoken at length to the Minister on this issue and we have had communications with the Garda Commissioner. This will be a matter for the Garda and it is aware that this is a critical issue. Penalty points will be brought in. They will be covered under section 35 and they will be dealt with through the legislative process.

There are two final questions to address. I am a little confused about the stance of Deputies Ellis and Stanley on an issue. Deputy Ellis said that it should be made cheaper for those entering the industry because the three-year rule that applies to new entrants is too expensive for people. Deputy Ellis and Deputy Stanley then said that there should be a cap on entry to the industry. Why would they want it to be made cheaper for people to enter the industry if there want there to be a cap on entry to the industry? Those two proposals could not co-exist. Therefore, I am not sure what is Sinn Féin's policy on this.

With regard to section 36 dealing with those with serious criminal offences, I want to clearly state that anybody who has convictions of a serious nature, and this will be determined by the legislation that I will bring forward to the Houses of the Oireachtas, should not be behind the wheel of a SPSV vehicle. I cannot be any clearer than that.

Deputy Dessie Ellis

We have to classify what is the serious conviction. I made the point previously that there are people in the industry who come under the scope of the provisions of the St. Andrews Agreement and I ask the Minister of State to take that on board.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I have taken it on board. I repeat that this will be brought through in the legislation that I will bring through the Houses of the Oireachtas. I want to clearly state this for the Deputy so that he will be under no illusions that anybody who has any serious convictions should not in my opinion be driving a taxi vehicle.

Deputy Dessie Ellis

All I am saying is that the Minister of State has to clarify what-----

Deputy Alan Kelly

I have clarified it.

Deputy Dessie Ellis

I do not think it is very clear.

Deputy Alan Kelly

It is very clear as far as I am concerned.

Deputy Dessie Ellis

In the case of people who has worked in the industry for ten years and many of them have been cleared in the past, some of them may have been republicans who came under the scope of the provisions of the St. Andrews Agreement and there could be other reasons involved, is the Minister of State saying that he will review everyone, or only new entrants to the industry?

Deputy Alan Kelly

The legislation has yet to be brought through the Oireachtas and the Deputy will have an opportunity to raise that issue as we go through it in detail. It will apply not only for those entering the industry but retrospectively. Anyone who has a serious conviction, and those convictions will be determined by the legislation, should not be driving a vehicle. They will be covered under this legislation, both those who are trying to enter the industry and retrospectively.

Chairman

I thank the Minister of State for coming before the committee. The committee will be taking its own actions arising from the meeting. One action will be to liaise with the industry and to delve further into some of the matters raised with a view to making its own recommendations on the matter.

The final question for the Minister is, where to next? When will the sequence of 46 actions be implemented? Will legislation be introduced in some of those areas in the third or fourth quarter of this year? Will a cross-departmental approach be taken involving Revenue and the Department of Justice and Equality moving in tandem with the recommendations being introduced?

Deputy Alan Kelly

I thank the Chairman for the opportunity to attend today's meeting. It was very welcome. I thank all the members for their contributions and questions. I understand that the industry communicates a lot with politicians and I am happy to clarify many of the issues.

On progressing the issue, we hope to bring forward section 36 in the second quarter of this year. We hope to introduce other legislation later in the year. Action has already been taken on some of the 46 recommendations. Sharing revenue and social welfare information has already commenced and is ongoing. Most of the recommendations will be dealt with this year. The medium-term recommendations will drift into 2013. As members can see from the report, any actions which are short term are intended to be implemented in 2012 and any of those that are medium term will probably drift into 2013. The committee can rest assured that this is an absolute priority for the Government, as is evident from the reporting structures that have been put in place in the Department and from work I have done with the National Transport Authority. I will stick rigidly to the timelines outlined.

Chairman

That concludes this morning's session. I thank the Minister of State for coming before the committee and wish him well in rolling out the recommendations of the report.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.45 a.m. until 2.15 p.m. on Tuesday, 6 March 2012.