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JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE IMPLEMENTATION OF THE GOOD FRIDAY AGREEMENT debate -
Thursday, 15 May 2008

North-South Transport Infrastructure: Discussion.

The next item is a discussion with the Minister for Transport, Deputy Noel Dempsey, and officials from the Department of Regional Development in Northern Ireland. I warmly welcome those attending the meeting today. The main item on the agenda is North-South transport infrastructure. In particular, I welcome our colleague, the Minister for Transport, Deputy Noel Dempsey; Mr. Ronnie Devlin of the Department of Transport; Mr. Geoff Allister, acting chief executive of the Department of Regional Development in Northern Ireland; and his colleague, Ms Doreen Brown, deputy secretary of that Department. Mr. Allister and Ms Brown are very welcome and we are deeply honoured they are here.

I warmly congratulate the Minister, Deputy Dempsey, on his reappointment as Minister for Transport and I wish him every success. He faces an onerous responsibility. We look forward to working with him and with his Northern Ireland colleague, the Minister for Regional Development, Mr. Conor Murphy, MLA, MP, for the greater benefit of everybody on this island. The Northern Ireland Minister, Mr. Murphy, was due to attend today's meeting but had to cancel because of executive commitments in the Northern Ireland Assembly. We have witnessed remarkable progress in the development of transport infrastructure on this island in the last ten years. While we still have much to do, the achievements we have witnessed have been remarkable.

I call on Mr. Allister and Ms Brown to make their presentations. These will be followed by a presentation from the Minister for Transport, Deputy Dempsey, after which members will have an opportunity to ask questions.

Mr. Geoff Allister

I thank the Chairman for inviting me to attend. I will confine my comments to the roads development programme, after which my colleague, Ms Brown, will deal with the wider transport agenda. I have brought some maps which members may find useful in locating the areas to which I refer. The Northern Ireland strategic transport network encompasses the principal network connecting our major towns and cities to the Belfast metropolitan area, the regional gateways and the network in the South. The Executive recently agreed an investment strategy for Northern Ireland for the ten-year period to 2018. This involves a capital investment of £3.1 billion in roads infrastructure. Of this, some £2.5 billion is targeted at the strategic road network. This incudes the £400 million contribution from the Irish Government, as provided in the national development plan.

I refer members to the map showing the eastern seaboard corridor, which runs from Larne through the Border at Newry and down to Dublin. Last year saw the opening of the A1-N1 link between Newry and Dundalk, a €100 million scheme undertaken as a single contract with the Northern Ireland Roads Service and Louth County Council as joint clients. The scheme was completed four months ahead of schedule and on budget. This highlights the excellent co-operation that exists between the Northern Ireland Roads Service and its counterparts in the National Roads Authority, the Department of Transport and the local authorities in the South. That co-operation was key to the successful delivery of the scheme.

Work has commenced on a new 12 km dual carriageway around Newry. It is scheduled for completion by the end of 2010 by which time the entire Belfast-Dublin corridor will be constructed to at least dual carriageway standard. Also included in that package is the grade separation of four junctions along the A1 between Lisburn and Lochbrickland. The idea is that we will continue to enhance the safety of the entire road network by installing grade separated junctions and safety barriers that will ensure there are no grade crossings.

In Belfast, upgrading and widening works are being carried out on the M1 and at the west link. These schemes are progressing well, particularly the west link upgrade which has seen the Grosvenor Road junction opened and work on the Broadway junction well ahead of programme. I anticipate completion of that project next year.

The upgrading to dual carriageway of the remaining 14 km single carriage stretch of the A8 between Belfast and the port of Larne was identified as one of the priority schemes in the national development plan. Consultants have been appointed and are making good progress. Work is on target to achieve the milestones that were agreed between the two Governments through the North-South Ministerial Council.

In addition, we have identified several further schemes along the eastern seaboard corridor, given its priority status. A further four flyover junctions are planned between Sprucefield and Lochbrickland, and a flyover scheme at Lisburn which will join the A1 to the M1, thus bypassing the Sprucefield retail park. That will make a significant difference to travel times on that route.

Two significant schemes are under development on the north-western corridor which runs from Belfast up the existing M2 and on to Derry. Consultants are considering several options for a 30 km stretch between Derry and Dungiven, with a preferred route to be announced in mid-2009. We have just completed public inquiries on a 14 km stretch of dual carriageway between Randalstown and Castledawson. When these schemes are completed, some 75% of the route between Belfast and Derry will be either motorway or dual carriageway.

Only one scheme is under development on the western corridor. However, I am pleased to announce it is 88 km in length and is one of the largest schemes ever to be attempted on these islands. The £400 million investment by the Irish Government has been assigned to assist in providing a dual carriageway on that corridor. It will run from Derry all the way to the Border at Aughnacloy. Consultants have been appointed and work is on target to achieve the milestones agreed between the two Governments through the North-South Ministerial Council. On completion, the north west will enjoy considerably reduced journey times to Dublin. In conjunction with the improvements to the A1 and A6, this upgrade will provide greatly improved transportation links to Ireland's two major cities.

The south-western corridor runs from Belfast through Enniskillen to the Border at Belcoo and on to Sligo. A 20.5 km dual carriageway upgrade scheme on the A4 between Dungannon and Ballygawley is currently at contract and work is progressing well. Included in future plans on this corridor are bypasses at Fivemiletown and Enniskillen which will further improve access east to west.

That completes my whistle-stop tour of the roads programme. I will pass over to my colleague, Ms Brown. I will be pleased to answer members' questions later in the meeting.

Ms Doreen Brown

I will deal with freight transport and public transport, areas which feature prominently within the work of the North-South Ministerial Council. We are currently considering the report which was published in March on freight transport on the island of Ireland. The study was carried out at the instigation of the CBI-IBEC joint business council and was funded by InterTradelreland. The report makes a range of recommendations, many of which apply both North and South. This is not surprising given that there is so much freight movement across the Border. The main recommendations are concerned with alleviating congestion, improving information gathering systems, enhancing modelling systems for forecasting purposes, devising common approaches to vehicle regulation and agreeing joint approaches to maximise access to EU funding. Some of the recommendations also have an east-west dimension given the movement of freight between this island and Britain, and these will be looked at within the British-Irish Council machinery.

Public transport is another area where there are issues of common interest on a North-South basis. Most public transport journeys are taken by bus, so road improvements between North and South have a positive impact on public transport. There are extensive cross-Border services and good co-operation between Bus Éireann and Translink. In terms of services, a current area of North-South co-operation involves exploring the need and scope for cross-Border rural transport services, dealing with the various licensing and organisational arrangements on both sides of the Border.

Railways, although they carry less passengers than buses, tend to attract far more attention and are of more interest on a North-South basis. The line of main interest is that between Belfast and Dublin. The Enterprise service has been a considerable success, with passenger numbers running at some 900,000 per year. The numbers are growing despite the road improvements being made in parallel. It is our view that this is because the service is increasingly being used for shorter commuter journeys. There are issues in regard to punctuality, which is running at some 88% at present, and the journey time, at two hours and five minutes, is slow for a 100 mile journey. The operating companies, larnród Éireann and NIR, are working together to devise proposals for improving the service, both in terms of frequency of service and a reduction in journey times. The latter is a particular challenge. Some progress will be made with track relaying in the North, but achieving significant journey time reductions will involve considerable expense.

Another area of interest is the commitment the Executive has given to improving the railway link to Derry. That is of value to the north west, perhaps including parts of Donegal. There are also groups pressing for the extension of the line from Derry to Letterkenny, through Donegal and on to Sligo. However, our priority is to improve the link to Derry. Anything further would require resources which are not currently available, and the case for such development would need to be proven.

Another transport area in which there has been and continues to be North-South co-operation is in respect of City of Derry Airport. The two Governments have a history of providing joint funding and are doing so at present for a programme of capital works, with each contributing approximately £7 million. In line with other regional airports, passenger numbers at City of Derry Airport have been growing, from 199,000 in 2002 to almost 428,000 in 2007.

There are other transport areas in which North-South interests exist and in which we share information and experience. We are embarking on the development of a rapid transit network for Belfast and are keen to learn from Dublin's experience. We understand that Cork, Galway, Limerick and Waterford are interested in learning from the work we have been doing in the Belfast area. We also are sharing experience on the promotion of sustainable transport, which is something we are also doing on an east-west basis within the British-Irish Council machinery. Finally, although it is not a matter that falls within Mr. Conor Murphy's remit, our Department of the Environment is involved with the Department of Transport in key issues relating to road safety.

I thank Ms Brown and Mr. Allister for their presentations. I invite the Minister for Transport, Deputy Noel Dempsey, to make his presentation.

Tá an-áthas orm bheith anseo inniu ag an gcruinniú seo agus táim buíoch don Chathaoirleach agus don choiste as ucht an cuireadh a bheith anseo. It is a pleasure for me to address the joint committee today to share the details of some of the good work that has been put in train since the restoration of the Executive in May 2007. As members have already heard a good overview in this regard, I will not labour the points overly but will touch on a number of them.

By way of background, North-South co-operation has reached a new level in the year that has just passed. I was privileged and proud to be part of the ministerial team for the first full plenary meeting of the North-South Ministerial Council since restoration. In Armagh that day, we had a genuinely open and wide-ranging discussion that touched on issues of concern and areas of interest, which, in previous times, we were often forced to consider in isolation in our respective parts of the island. It was a momentous day and symbolic of the new era of practical politics into which we are all, North and South, now engrossed.

We renewed our discussions in Dundalk in February 2008 and focused on important issues affecting the all-island economy and on shared social concerns. My recollection of that meeting is that one or two issues which were not formally on the agenda were raised by the First Minister and resonated with the rest of the Council. Since then, approximately 14 different ministerial meetings have been held in areas such as transport, the environment, education, agriculture and so on. From my perspective, while the Ministerial Councils are important, a more important development is that issues can now be dealt with by lifting a telephone rather than going through formal structures all the time. It is better that such things can be done and that such discussions take place.

It has been a wonderful year for the people on the island of Ireland. I look forward to playing my part as a member of the Government in advancing this in future. One could state it is politics as one always wanted it to be on the island of Ireland. I refer to discussing problems of mutual concern, trying to reach resolutions of such problems and then helping each other to solve them. This has the potential to deliver a changed future for all the island's residents. As Minister for Transport, I am determined to embrace all the potential for collaboration these new realities make possible.

As stated previously, a range of areas in the transport brief have been identified in which practical co-operation can be pursued through the North-South Ministerial Council or other, less formal, contacts between Ministers and key decision-makers from North and South. As previously outlined, last July I was pleased to agree to a contribution of €580 million, or £400 million, towards the upgrading of the A5 road to Derry and Letterkenny and the Belfast to Larne route. The Atlantic corridor road links are being revitalised and I look forward to a vibrant north west that will benefit from greatly enhanced cross-Border infrastructure. Members also will be aware that the North-South Ministerial Council noted a proposal from the Irish Government to construct a bridge at Narrow Water, which would link counties Louth and Down. A grant of almost €400,000 was allocated this year by my Department to Louth County Council to advance the technical study. It is estimated the preliminary design should be completed by the end of this year.

As Ms Brown has outlined, the rail connection between Dublin, Belfast and points in between, which is jointly operated by Iarnród Éireann and Northern Ireland Railways, requires development. I am working to increase the frequency and reduce the journey time. While it was not on the agenda of the North-South Ministerial Council, previously I raised the issue of the Belfast to Derry rail link in an informal manner. I am glad to note it is being pursued by the Northern authorities.

The Government also continues to invest in City of Derry Airport, which is a resource for all the people of the north west. A range of actions are being pursued on the extremely important issue of road safety. Massive co-operation has taken place in this regard. Since the time when I served as Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, there have been joint road safety campaigns which have been interchangeable North and South. A great deal of co-operation takes place between Departments and between the Police Service of Northern Ireland and the Garda Síochána, which I greatly appreciate and which has been extremely helpful.

In addition, the Government is actively pursuing the reopening of the two remaining closed roads on the Border between counties Monaghan and Tyrone. One could say this constitutes a bridge-building exercise, both literally and otherwise. Good progress is being made in this regard. Moreover, cross-Border community-based rural transport services are being developed and, as previously noted, a number of sustainable transport initiatives are being furthered.

In the wider context, the securing by Wrightbus of Ballymena of an order for 48 vehicles from Bus Éireann in 2007 was a positive development. Similarly, a fortnight ago, 120 leading executives from 80 American companies visited Belfast for a major three-day conference aimed at attracting investment to the North. This has proven to be an encouraging event with impressive results. For example, the Canadian aeroplane manufacturer Bombardier has announced a £70 million investment, while CyberSource, a secure Internet payment company, announced the establishment of a research and development operation in Belfast, which will create approximately 56 software development jobs. On the broader front, these announcements are the kind of encouraging developments that everyone wishes for and that I believe will contribute to building a brighter future for all on the island. In my role as Minister for Transport, I intend to try to ensure that I do everything possible to contribute to such a bright future.

I thank the Minister and our two colleagues from Northern Ireland for their excellent presentations. It is clear that great progress can be made on foot of ministerial and agency co-operation, as well as a will to act in partnership together. Members appreciate the work that has been done. A number of members have asked to contribute and I will take them in the order they offered. I call Deputy Niall Blaney, Co-Chairman of the British-Irish Interparliamentary Body.

First, I thank the Chairman for arranging this meeting, which demonstrates the highly important role of this joint committee since its establishment. Members have positive work to do and the presentations by the Minister and the officials from the Department for Regional Development in Northern Ireland were highly interesting. As someone who comes from the north west, good days lie ahead for us. It was a hobby horse of mine in respect of the upgrade of the N2-A5. Last year, just before the national development plan was announced, I was delighted to learn from the Taoiseach's office that the N2-A5 was included. It gives hope and light up there because times have been hard from the point of view of employment and a general feeling of being slightly cut off from the South. The fact that this road is moving forward gives us a great future. More importantly, it is a joint venture. To be realistic, it is something that could not have happened before but, times being what they are, everybody is moving forward and working together, which is very important.

I have a number of questions. In respect of the N2-A5, do we have any timeframes? Is a programme laid out in respect of when things will fall into place? If we do, could we be told what the timeframes are for the different planning stages, route selection, getting work started on the ground and completion date?

We in the north west see Derry Airport as key to our success. However, we feel a bit neglected. We do not want to take over Derry Airport but we feel that the likes of Donegal County Council should have more say on the board of the airport. We do not want to take control of it but when we put so much finance into these projects, we should have some say at board level. Could the members ensure this is considered?

As the Chairman mentioned, I am Co-Chairman of the British-Irish Interparliamentary Body. In those terms, we now think east-west rather than North-South. In east-west terms, I am thinking of the N16-A4 and the western side of that. The N16 from Sligo to Blacklion is a bad road. Are any plans afoot for improving this route because it is a very important corridor as well for Sligo across to Belfast. In addition, the northern end of it from Blacklion to Enniskillen on to Ballygawley is a fairly bad route but has not been mentioned this morning. Are any plans afoot in the future to improve that route?

I again thank our colleagues from the North for coming here and enlightening us this morning. It is good to see this co-operation taking place and I again thank the Chairman for arranging it.

I do not often take up the route of Ian Paisley but I will put my comments around the word "arts". I am a musician by background, so arts would be air, road, train and sea. If I change it to road, air, train and sea, we would get "rats", which would not be so good.

I congratulate all those involved in developing North-South co-operation, particularly in respect of transport infrastructure. I am not saying that everything is in any way wonderful at the moment but it is much better now than it was at any point in our past. I remember meeting Peter Robinson when he was Minister for Regional Development. He was shown a map of the east-west divide in Ulster. I was scared to speak at the meeting because I thought the fact that I was a female politician from Donegal might not help the cause of the North-West Region Cross Border Group at the time. I was encouraged to speak at the meeting. Far be it from me to be shy but I was trying to be diplomatic. I spoke at that meeting and said that he was the one person who could change the colours on the map. That was about the words "access" and "equality of infrastructure".

Mr. Allister made the comment that there was only project in the west. We waited a long time for that one project. The fact that it is so big shows how long we waited for it because there was nothing there before it.

Ultimately, the North-West Region Cross Border Group, which is composed of Limavady Borough Council, Derry City Council, Strabane District Council and Donegal County Council, worked on projects like this. Out of the meeting we had with Peter Robinson, the first part of the bypass at Strabane and the bypass at Toom began. Mr. Robinson then gave away his ministry. I am glad the political situation has settled down and that we have real faces at political level. Obviously, we always have the permanent government behind there.

In respect of air travel, I agree with Deputy Blaney that Derry Airport is as key to Donegal as it is to Derry. When one looks at the statistics relating to people using it, about 49% or 51% are Donegal users but it always fluctuates around 50%. Therefore, it is important that we have an impact. I have suggested many times that Donegal County Council should buy Derry Airport but I am not sure if it is the politically correct time to advance that move. I encourage people who are involved in the air area to try to expand and support the work being done there. It is felt that the aircraft for the Derry to Dublin flight are too small. As a result, many people who would usually try to fly on Monday night, Tuesday or Wednesday have found that there was not enough capacity. When one does not have reliability in respect of a seat, one tends to take another option. The size of the aircraft could be detrimental to the use of the airport so perhaps someone will take a look at that aspect.

Aer Arann runs the operation from Carrickfinn and is able to do packages. For a long time, it ran packages of weekend breaks in Donegal where people could get a flight and two nights' accommodation for €99 whereas the flight is considerably more expensive from Dublin to Derry even though the Irish Government is subsidising it. Why is it so much more expensive when the subvention given by the Government is so high?

In respect of roads, I have touched on the fact that the A5 has been very important for us and the development of it. I hope that by the time the Government's intervention of €480,000 is drawn down, it will be worth about £500,000. I was at the public consultation in Derry on Friday. The length of the time to get to construction scares me. Is it a statutory timeframe that cannot be moved forward or is it an aspirational timeframe at the moment that builds in a lot of leeway? Is it envisaged that there will be multiple contracts because it seems logical that nobody will be able to provide one contract that will do 88 km? Perhaps it should broken down into a number of contracts that could run simultaneously.

An aspect raised with me at the public consultation on Friday was the Aughnacloy to Monaghan route, what we are doing to ensure that there is 2 plus 2 link between the end of the project in Aughnacloy and the beginning of it in the Republic - which would link it into the existing 2 plus 2 road in the Republic - and an indication that things are moving well in respect of the section from Strabane to Letterkenny.

I wish to correct the Minister. More than two Border crossings have not been reopened. There is a crossing at Cannings Lane, Coney Road in Muff, County Donegal, which I have been battling to get reopened since 1996. A bridge is needed because Donegal County Council has tarred up to the bridge which has been in a collapsed state for a considerable period of time.

The Minister knows my gripe in respect of the train. I cannot understand why it is not called the Dublin-Derry train service. We talk about Dublin to Belfast and the Enterprise service. I use this service quite a lot. When it is late and one gets vouchers, one cannot use them in the North because they are not recognised in Belfast Central Station. I do not know whether this has been noted. This should be a Dublin-Derry train service. In the same way that the road is a long single entity, the train line is a single entity. I accept that there have been moves to upgrade the track but, again, the timeframe is all wrong.

There is no reason work on the Dublin-Belfast Enterprise line could not be replicated, particularly from Coleraine to Derry, where there has been no investment. The type of track must change, as must the passing lanes but it is unusual that people do not realise one could sit on a train in Derry and end up in Dublin. There was previously a requirement to change in Belfast but all that has been overcome. There is no reason why this is not the Dublin-Derry train service. Why are we not drawing down cross-Border funding at a European level for a cross-Border project when we are led to believe there are other train service projects in the Republic that are drawing down such funding? Ms Brown referred to people travelling from the north west by bus but that is all they can do. I can provide as many parliamentary question answers as the committee wants on the upgrade of the road, train and air service. The response was that there was a bus service. We want the kind of services available to everyone else as we feel we are no different to people anywhere else.

While there is a major port in Lisahally, there is also deep water berthage at Moville. There is a major construction project in Greencastle for infrastructure. There are major silting problems in Derry and getting under the Foyle bridge is a difficulty. Sometimes we are told this problem has been overcome and sometimes that it has not. I ask the Minister to consider the development of Carrickarory Pier, Moville. With 100 m put onto the nose, it would have immediate access to deep water berthage, meaning that liners and other boats sit outside my house could discharge at Moville or Greencastle and be away on their journeys. I declare an interest in that the boats sit for days outside my house waiting for the right tide to go up to Derry. Time is a cost when it comes to freight and the cost of freight increases when people go beyond Malin Head. When I refer to Malin Head, I must say that Malin Head has been very important in terms of coast guard work and cross-Border work to the Foyle area, North and South, and the Portrush lifeboat. I plead with the Minister to reconsider the decision to close Malin Head.

I join in the welcome extended to Mr. Allister and Ms Brown and thank them for their contributions. I join in the congratulations and welcome to the reappointed Minister and his colleague, Mr. Devlin. I visited the bridges at Annaghroe and Knocknaginny on Monday and noted that, on the southern side, the local authority has done some initial clearance work to assist in the assessment for tenders for the work to be undertaken. Can the Minister provide additional information? It is welcome to note some attention given to it in the recent past but this was only preparatory and in the early stages. There was no comparable indication on the approach from the northern side. Can the visitors offer information on the restoration project on these bridges? If so, I would welcome it because it is a joint North-South effort.

The A5 and N2, as Mr. Allister has indicated, is 88 km on the northern side. Can he confirm that this is dual carriageway for the 88 km? The earlier question Deputy Blaney asked was on the timeframe. I wish to add my voice to that. What point are we at in respect of the design stage? Is it possible to project when work will commence, to which everyone is looking forward? Can the Minister, Deputy Dempsey, give an indication of the extent of works intended on the southern side?

Work from Monaghan town to the Border at Moy Bridge, Aughnacloy, has already been signalled. Will that have dual carriageway status? Senator Keaveney has indicated that the intention is to link with a two-one bypass at Clontibret, which bypasses Castleblayney. Is it intended to address the fact that one is returning from a two-one to a two-two carriageway? The section of roadway brings one to single carriage status, going North and South. This presents challenges for motorists adjusting to an ever-changing road situation and poses safety questions.

The east-west route, Dundalk to Sligo, has not been mentioned. There have been some attempts to address this by respective local authorities south of the Border. Can the Minister give us an update on whether the east-west designation still applies and information on the likely route of this link-up? Can he confirm it has a cross-Border dimension, from Dundalk though County Louth, Monaghan, Cavan, Enniskillen in County Fermanagh and on to Sligo? I would welcome information on the stage at which planning of this route is at.

Perhaps Mr. Allister can throw light on the following matter. The East Border Region Committee, based in Newry and whose work he will be familiar with, has highlighted the importance of the creation of a new bridge at Ballinacargy linking Dundalk with Castleblayney and Monaghan. It is in close proximity to Cullaville, to the west and south of Crossmaglen and is a very busy route. It has seen a number of fatalities over the years. Can members have an update on this? Everybody blames the party on the other side. Can the Minster give a sense of where the Department is at on the issue of a bridge at Ballinacargy?

Ms Brown mentioned that road safety was not directly under the ambit of the Minister, Mr. Murphy. Could she provide us with the statistics on road traffic accidents from a road safety perspective? We cannot talk about transport without addressing road safety. Do statistics exist north of the Border on traffic accidents, fatal or non-fatal, that indicate possible causes, such as those presumed related to speeding or alcohol or other substance abuse? Would the issue of driver fatigue or drivers falling sleep arise? There is a raft of other possible headings under which road traffic accidents could be categorised. That information is critical in informing how we address road safety comprehensively rather than the traditional assumption that it is all speed and drink related. There are many other issues that contribute to road traffic accidents and a comprehensive statistical assessment, over a period of years, would help to inform the addressing of this problem, both north and south of the Border.

I wish to advise the Minister for Transport, Deputy Dempsey, that a question I tabled to him in that regard was disallowed by the Ceann Comhairle's office on the grounds that it does not come under his remit. Perhaps the Minister would like to comment on that. I presume that the Road Safety Authority may be in a position to answer my question and I have written to it seeking the same data.

I wish to address my next point to representatives from both sides of the Border. It is still not possible to buy bus tickets on-line to travel from the Twenty-six Counties to the Six Counties and I presume the reverse also applies. Bus Éireann says this is because its system and that of Ulster Bus are not compatible. However, I can buy a bus ticket in Dublin to travel to London, Paris or Warsaw but I cannot buy one on-line to travel to Belfast or Derry. I ask that the respective Department representatives and Ministers would take this issue on board. Surely this problem is not beyond our ability to overcome. We must see compatible systems in place to allow for that to happen.

We discussed air, rail, sea and road transport. I would also like to mention one other mode of transport, for fear it would fall of the table entirely and I have no doubt that Deputy Crawford will also mention it. I acknowledge that it is not under the immediate remit of the Minister for Transport, but inland waterways as a mode of transport is of growing interest to people on this island, as well as to visitors. It would be remiss of me not to mention the Ulster Canal restoration. The potential that offers in opening up the opportunity to take an inland waterway course all the way from Belfast to Limerick on the Shannon Estuary is tremendous. We have a signalled restoration of a section of the Ulster Canal linking the Shannon, Erne system but many are concerned about when it will move forward and what the timeframe is for extending it from Clones on to Lough Neagh.

As Fine Gael spokesperson on transport, I am delighted to be here today. It is an historic day. Our own Minister for Transport is here as well as officials representing the Minister in Northern Ireland.

Mr. Geoff Allister

We are representing the Minister for the Department for Regional Development.

I am delighted the representatives could be here. In the context of North-South progress, meetings like this are very important. I welcome the commitments agreed between the Irish Government and the Government in Northern Ireland and the progress made to date.

I wish to focus my attention on issues relating to road safety, which are of equal importance north and south of the Border. I live in a Border county, County Louth and as I drive up to Dublin, which I do very frequently, I regularly see Northern drivers speeding at between 140 km/h to 160 km/h. They dominate the road network in a very dangerous way. I have no doubt that Southern drivers to the same in Northern Ireland. One of the problems is that the penalty points system in the South does not apply to Northern drivers and vice versa. That is a very serious issue. I understand it is the responsibility of the Department for Regional Development in Northern Ireland to come up with proposals on this matter.

There are a number of problems, including the fact that the points ratings are different in both jurisdictions, that is, points for offences vary. Of all of those who have received penalty points in the Republic of Ireland, who number over 400,000, over 123,000 have no driving licence. When I made further inquiries about this I was told that in the majority of cases - although I do not have the statistical information here - the drivers are out-of-State drivers, a very significant number of whom are from Northern Ireland. I have no doubt that the same scenario is playing out in Northern Ireland, whereby Southern drivers in Northern Ireland to whom penalty points do not apply are causing similar problems. This is a very serious issue, particularly in the context of road safety and has been allowed to continue for far too long.

I have only been a member of this committee for a short period but I am aware from meetings of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Transport that this is a major issue for the Minister. We both acknowledge its importance, politically, but we need to solve the issue as soon as possible. I understand from what has been said today that it will be a part of the process during the week. It must work. We must have the same penalty points regime north and south of the Border. Most importantly, whether one is from Northern Ireland or the Republic, penalty points must apply. Out-of-state drivers who have been caught speeding in either jurisdiction should have their cars impounded. We must take effective action in this area. I have no doubt that a significant number of accidents, north and south of the Border, are caused by people who do not have proper licences or insurance.

Having spoken to members of the Garda Síochána, it appears that the problem of uninsured drivers is also significant. I ask the representatives to comment on the fact that there is a greater number of out-of-State drivers who are not insured. I do not have the exact figures here but I believe that approximately 3% or 4% of drivers here do not have insurance but the figure is higher for out-of-State drivers. I hasten to add, out-of-State drivers includes all other countries, not just Northern Ireland. However, on inquiry, the Insurance Federation of Ireland has told me that there is a specific problem with drivers from Northern Ireland and the United Kingdom, or rather, with UK-registered cars. Again, I want to be fair and balanced on this issue and I am sure the opposite also applies. I am not having a go at anybody in particular. I am simply saying that the current system is in serious difficulty and these issues must be tackled.

There has been much success in transport initiatives in Northern Ireland, including with rapid transit, bus lanes, quality bus corridors and so forth. It would be useful if members of this committee, the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Transport, or both, visited Northern Ireland to determine what transport initiatives have worked best. Perhaps the Minister for Transport and his counterpart in Northern Ireland could discuss those issues.

I welcome the representatives of the Government in Northern Ireland and hope to work with them more in the future.

I join Deputy Blaney in thanking the Chairman for organising this meeting and for making it a priority. It is a good sign of where we want to go as a committee. I welcome the officials from the North, the Minister for Transport, Deputy Dempsey and his officials as well as the representatives from the Department of Foreign Affairs.

I am disappointed that the Minister at the Department for Rural Development, Mr. Conor Murphy, MLA, is not here today but I understand he is attending another very important meeting. I accept that and look forward to working with him in the future.

I wish to quote something from Agenda Northern Ireland which Mr. Murphy might have chosen to put on the record of these proceedings today, had he attended. It is just one sentence. Mr. Murphy said, "I want public transport to be seen as a realistic alternative to car travel and to play a real part in promoting social inclusion and cohesion". This is a very acceptable objective and I welcome it. People might regard it as realistic or idealistic. The proof of the pudding will be in the eating but it looks good on paper. Internally Northern Ireland is making a commitment of £76 million on rail improvement works between Ballymena and Derry, which I very much welcome and a ten-year railway investment projection of £456 million, which I also welcome. When I examine the policy of where this will be spent I accept that much of this investment will go on upgrading the Belfast to Dublin track, but there is much work to be done on the overall strategy. I am also conscious of the fact that both sides of the Border have bought into an integrated transport strategy in the Good Friday Agreement or Belfast Agreement, depending on what one wants to call it, and it is important we examine the integration and overall policy.

On Ms Brown's input on examining further policy areas on rail and future routes, I welcome her statement that if there is a case for such development it would need to be proven. I accept that, as do all the groups from the north west which lobby for rail transport whether the North-West Rail Corridor Group, the North-West Rail Loop or Into the West. These are very pragmatic people and they do not think one builds rail for the sake of it. I ask the officials in the Northern department to examine the possibility of assessing this as an option. All we seek is assessment in partnership with local authorities and groups and the Department of Transport here in Dublin. It can be done and has already started to happen. Donegal County Council has started the ball rolling by committing the small figure of €10,000. Many council areas have no rail, for example counties Fermanagh, Tyrone, Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan, whence the two respected gentlemen here hail. Both Departments, North and South, could play a facilitation role in assessing the possibility of railway to the north west. A critical mass of 500,000 people do not have access to public transport. If this cost-benefit analysis proves the idea is utter balderdash, my colleagues in the north west and I will accept that. However, it may be a worthwhile venture to put into policy. We are not looking at putting down tracks or buying trains but at the assessment, and that is what I ask of both officials and Departments, to examine that appraisal.

Like the Chairman I welcome the Minister, Deputy Dempsey, back to this portfolio. In terms of consistency I welcome the fact the Minister is still in this Department because he is serious about it and has a reputation of being a strong advocate of rail. He has had ongoing involvement with West=On=Track and Fr. Micheál MacGréil talks very highly of his proactive approach to rail. The Dublin to Navan line is another example of his commitment to rail.

On the cross-Border sustainable transport initiatives, I ask both Departments to examine a cross-Border learner drivers training scheme that took place recently between Strabane and east Inishowen taking in places such as Killygordan, St. Johnston and Carrigans. It was worked on a cross-Border basis and they are looking to go to the next level and having a joint cross-Border rural scheme.

The Minister's script mentions that €580 million is set aside for the A5 from Derry to Letterkenny. Following representations from my county council, is it possible to get one engineer from two county councils, Monaghan and Donegal, to sit on that working group? I ask this because both of those county councils' spatial strategies and development plans will be impacted by the route selection. It is important that east Donegal and north Monaghan have some sort of input at local level. Either Ms Brown or Mr. Allister said, "the key success to the A1 scheme was ongoing involvement of county councils". The Minister will say there are officials from the NRA on that working group, but there is an official request from Donegal County Council to have a resident engineer on that working group. I ask that both Departments examine that today.

I am sorry for going on but I welcome this opportunity. We are ready to move to the next level on showing the tangibles to the people North and South. We can talk about the past and the benefits of the peace process, who did what, when they did it and how it happened. However, we have a very demanding public and rightly so, asking how their lives and their children's lives can improve as a result of the integrated North-South Belfast or Good Friday Agreement. It is the job of politicians to raise the bar because we cannot keep putting on paper cross-Border idealistic notions about where we are going if the tangibles are not in place. The ordinary man or woman on the street will say there was cross-Border co-operation before the peace process, for example the Belfast-Dublin rail link, and the cross-Border co-operation between Malin Head, Belfast and Larne coastguard stations. There are examples of cross-Border co-operation before the 1998 peace process. I ask that we raise the bar and do justice to the people who have been working on a cross-Border basis for the past 30 years, the people involved in groups from the North West Region Cross-Border Group, ICBAN and people working at the community interface level. Cross-Border co-operation is not new to these people. It is new at a departmental or national level in both our jurisdictions. We must do justice to the Agreement, move forward and raise the bar. If we do not begin to produce tangibles in access, roads, rail travel or other public transport provision we will undermine the confidence people still have in the Good Friday Agreement.

I too welcome the Minister and his colleague together with our two colleagues from the Minister's office in Northern Ireland. As one who lives within a few miles of the Border and who has had a personal interest in the peace process all along I welcome what is coming from it. It was strange to me when I first became involved in national politics that we had some difficulties in having meetings with our counterparts in Northern Ireland. Before that I had been involved in farm organisation and we had worked closely across the Border and had no issues with the Ulster Farmers Union, the Northern Ireland Producers Organisation or the co-operative movement. Monaghan Co-op, for example, is deeply involved across the Border doing 80% of its business in Northern Ireland and 20% in the South. The business and community groups, as was mentioned, had built bridges across the Border. Things were happening but not at political or structural level. This is where the Good Friday and St. Andrews' agreements become so important.

In case I forget, I want to speak on the safety issue raised by Deputy Fergus O'Dowd. I drive up the M1 constantly and watch the number of cars that go by at extraordinary speeds. The cars are not all from Northern Ireland, the UK or other countries; there are also some from Monaghan and Donegal taking their chances. We have to get to grips with the issue of road safety. The issue of penalty points needs to be solved urgently. As a member of the British-Irish Interparliamentary Body for more years than I care to mention - going back to 1993 - I can confirm this is one of the issues we have discussed on a regular basis and a committee was set up specifically to deal with it. We have come a long way but there are still legal difficulties with introducing a structure under which people can be given penalty points North or South of the Border. I drive to Belfast too so I know what happens in the other direction. People from the South do not behave themselves so well there either. It is not, as Deputy O'Dowd said earlier, a matter of placing blame on anyone. However, it is a major issue.

I thank Mr. Geoff Allister for his indepth information on transport. This is one of the most important issues as far as economics is concerned. For example, the M1 from Belfast to Dungannon has been there a long time, but it has never gone any further. From Ballygawley right out to the west nothing has been built in recent times. If we consider the Derry-Dublin route, which links the main city on the island with the fourth largest city, it was a major breakthrough when the then Taoiseach, Deputy Bertie Ahern, and the former UK Prime Minister, Mr. Tony Blair, agreed that would be a new structure. The thing that worries me in this area, however - this is directed at the Minister, Deputy Dempsey, as well as Mr. Allister - is the urgency of this issue.

We have a unique problem at the Monaghan end whereby we have bypassed three towns - Carrickmacross, Castleblayney and Monaghan - and the plans that were in place and ready to go to CPO for the road from Monaghan town to the Border have been put on hold. This stretch of road is one of the most dangerous on the island. It has caused many deaths in the past and causes major hold-ups at present. We need to see some urgency in replacing it. To my knowledge, all that has been allocated through Monaghan County Council towards the planning of a replacement road is €200,000. In this day and age an amount such as this will allow only the appointment of one position rather than delivering anything. I ask the Minister to comment on this and to advise, from a Southern point of view, what progress is being made in this area.

Deputy Ó Caoláin mentioned the issue of linking the four-lane highway to the new two-plus-one road at Clontibret. There are other things that have to be cleared up there because it could create a lot of problems. In addition, unless there is a dramatic change in circumstance, we must deal with the winding down and closure of Monaghan General Hospital and the transfer of its patients to Cavan. The route those patients will have to take is the road from Monaghan town to Cavan through County Fermanagh. As one who was deeply involved in negotiations over a piece of that road at Rabbit Island, which was eventually restructured, I pay tribute to all who were involved. A tremendous job was done. However, there is still a serious problem in the Wattlebridge area in the Northern Ireland section and, of course, the area between Monaghan town and Smithborough is a disaster. That is something that has taken on a new urgency and, while it is not on the list, I urge that it be dealt with because otherwise more lives will be lost unnecessarily. As others have said, the completion of these jobs within a suitable timeframe is vital to show the peace process is actually working.

I welcome the other proposals regarding the east-west roads in Northern Ireland and, of course, the road from Dublin through to Larne Port. This is for obvious reasons: the ports of Larne and Belfast are of major importance to industries throughout the Border area, including Cavan, Monaghan, Sligo, Leitrim and Donegal. Industries in all these areas use the ports of Larne and Belfast to transport goods not just to the UK but through the UK to the larger European market. That has become more and more important. I welcome the progress on these issues and the consultation that is taking place.

I could spend the next half hour talking about the issue of railroads, but Deputy McHugh has dealt with it comprehensively. The bones of a rail line that would link with the Belfast-Dublin route are still in place between Monaghan town and Portadown, and I ask that a feasibility study be considered for this area. I also urge that the Minister consider extending the railroad from Dublin to Navan at least as far as Kingscourt. If my Seanad colleague returns from the Seanad in time to speak on this he will go into it in much more detail.

Efforts to speed up traffic in Dublin were mentioned. I advise people to go somewhere other than Dublin to see how that could be done. If one comes into Dublin a number of times a week one knows that although one can get to Dublin reasonably fast thanks to the bypass, when one gets to Dublin city, I assure the delegates if they did not come by car today, it is a different experience.

I also welcome the retention of the Minister's post. It is always a good thing to retain a post at all. The Minister has done a reasonably good job in this area and we wish him well in his continuing role, especially in terms of co-operation with his counterpart in Northern Ireland. As a representative of the constituency of Cavan-Monaghan, which has no rail line, I emphasise that the road structures are of extraordinary importance. The Minister mentioned the great event that took place recently when 120 leading executives from 80 American companies came to Belfast. I urge the Minister, as a representative of the Twenty-six Counties, to ensure the Border region - I specifically mention counties Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan in this context - gets its fair share of that inward investment. We certainly need those jobs as much as Belfast, Derry, Enniskillen or anywhere else.

The Ulster Canal is a vital project. In the past, when there were no roads at all in the country, it was not one of my priorities. However, that has changed and there is no reason money cannot now be spent on this. It is important to show that there is a real commitment to that as quickly as possible. While I welcome the statement that it will be open from Belturbet to Clones, we need an indication that the whole canal will be opened in the not too distant future. It is the last link that allows people to travel from the north coast down through the Shannon to the south and would be of great benefit to the Cavan-Monaghan region as well as to Northern Ireland. It is one of the few projects for which I have seen complete cross-party commitment, from the UUP, Sinn Féin and the SDLP in Northern Ireland and from the main parties south of the Border. There is not a single senior politician in any of the groups who is not committed to that project and that is extremely important.

I wish to support an issue already raised by other speakers, including Deputy Ó Caoláin, concerning the road from Castleblayney to Dundalk. That is an extremely important route and while only about five or eight kilometres need to be upgraded, the bridge on the Border is very dangerous. This has been discussed many times. My concern is that it will be like my own crossroads in County Monaghan, Swanscross, which was the scene of dozens of accidents. Unfortunately, it was not until four or five people were killed that a new roundabout was built. We do not need a roundabout at Ballingarry Bridge but it must be restructured. If that road was properly restructured Castleblayney would benefit greatly by being linked to the M1.

I have kept going long enough. Deputy McHugh made the point that there should be direct involvement by both Monaghan County Council and Donegal County Council in drawing up the plans for that major route from Monaghan through Northern Ireland to Donegal. I support that and ask that it be considered. Two such authorities would have a significant role to play in making sure that the proper structures are in place. I have no doubt that the NRA can do a good job but, to speak bluntly, the job that was done on the bypass at Castleblayney begs questions. Ordinary engineers with a background in the area might have a role to play and I support Deputy McHugh on that issue. I thank all who have addressed the meeting today.

Mr. Pat Doherty, MP

Go raibh maith agat. I welcome and thank the Minister for Transport, Deputy Noel Dempsey, and the senior officials North and South for being here today. On the first occasion that I served on a committee down here in 1994, Deputy Dempsey was a member of the Forum for Peace and Reconciliation. If this committee could be as successful as that one eventually was I believe we might be going places.

The Minister for Regional Development, Mr. Conor Murphy, MLA, MP, and the Minister for Agriculture and Rural Development, Ms Michelle Gildernew, MLA, MP, were to be present today but a special meeting of the Northern Executive was called to deal with education proposals and so they could not attend.

Mr. Allister mentioned the 88 km on the western corridor on the A5. I must declare a special interest. About 60 of those kilometres go through my constituency of West Tyrone so I am particularly focused on that one. Recently the consultants held a series of public consultations in Ballygawley, Omagh, Strabane and Derry. I attended the meeting in Strabane. When the consultants were explaining their survey and the options they had, they were confined to the Six Counties. That is understandable for more than 90% of the route but for the section north of Strabane as it nears Derry it might be advisable to consider crossing the Foyle on the Donegal side. That, however, was not part of their consultation. That matter should be looked at again because doing so might throw up another route into the city, given that there is an existing old railway line coming down the Donegal side to Strabane. If examined that might offer further opportunities.

When the survey is being undertaken I do not believe it would be any great extension of the consultants' remit if they could identify a rail route within that same corridor. That is the type of joined-up thinking that might be useful in developing a direct route. I am aware of a salient point, namely, that it should be called the Derry-Dublin rail line. It is my understanding that the rail line is going to go as far north as Navan. An existing old line runs between Navan and Carrickmacross. It might be useful for the future if, in identifying the road route, they could also identify a potential rail route.

Regarding the Letterkenny-Lifford or Letterkenny-Strabane route, or more precisely, the Manor roundabout to Strabane route, the N14 route, I ask for some detail on the timescales and the standard of the road that is being proposed. Is it to be dual carriageway or two-plus-one? Is a new bridge to be built south of the existing bridge at Lifford-Strabane?

There are roadworks at present between Aughnacloy and Ballygawley. Are these part of what will become the dual carriageway? Is there to be a linkage between what is going on now and what is to happen when the dual carriageway is in place?

I will be as succinct as I can. I welcome the speakers and their excellent presentations and I join in the congratulations to the Minister on his reappointment. I believe that this is a practical expression of the peace dividend and it is great to see it.

I am a strong believer in railways and in the redevelopment of the rail system. It is efficacious for a number of reasons, for the good of the traveller, for people's quality of life, and in the context of global warming. I know the Minister has a commitment to it and Deputy McHugh spoke at length about it. I would reiterate everything that he said concerning rail.

I am a little concerned that nothing much has been said about my own county, Cavan. Nobody can take issue with the fact that it is my duty to represent that area. A significant part of Cavan adjoins Northern Ireland and has crossing points and I am concerned that more reference has not been made to that in today's discussion. It disappoints me. Concerning the Southern side specifically, does the Minister agree the bypassing of Virginia and Belturbet to be important infrastructural developments on the N3? Have the speakers any light to shed on what might be coming in the Cavan area? I do not begrudge reference to other counties but I would like to see reference to Cavan.

Some of the questions are specific and I will have to get back to Members with the answers, but I undertake to get the information requested.

Mr. Geoff Allister will deal with the questions about the A5 and N2 roads as he is more familiar with the relevant details. However, south of the Border there is a provision for improving the existing N2 road. It is currently a single carriageway road, but the NRA will keep this under review in light of what is happening across the Border.

There was a question about placing engineers from counties Donegal and Monaghan on the steering group and the answer was anticipated. We have officials from both Departments and from both road authorities, which is sufficient. I am not being facetious or smart but engineers from counties Donegal and Monaghan have enough work to do without being placed on this committee. They are under significant pressure with the existing work on non-national roads and continuing road works. While I am not being disparaging about them, I do not believe they could bring anything extra to the group. There is and there will be plenty of contact between the NRA and the local authorities for specific reasons. I would not use up the time of a scare resource such as these engineers provide by placing them on a committee. We have several people working on this project--

With the permission of the Chair, the Donegal county manager made a specific request for this--

I am giving the response to that request.

He will know whether it is a waste of time.

I am not going to accede to a request to have these engineers on the committee as I do not believe it is necessary. I am not saying it is a waste of time; I regard their time better spent looking after the onerous jobs they already have. I base this assertion to a considerable degree on my experience in meeting with officials in local authorities and hearing about the extent to which engineers are under pressure to try to deliver existing commitments on the roads programmes. If there are issues with this road requiring attention they can be addressed through the normal channels, not by having people sit on steering groups. That is my strong view.

The question of a member of Donegal County Council sitting on the board of the City of Derry Airport was raised. The governance structures of the company are subject to review and it is a matter for the airport, which is a private company. However, we are offering assistance, which is as much to our advantage and to the advantage of the people of Donegal as anyone else. Donegal County Council could, if it has not already done so, make contact directly with the board. I can speak to my counterpart about this matter too.

The matter of advancing the improvement of the east-west road linking Dundalk and Sligo was raised. This is in the programme for Government. Cavan County Council has the lead role in this matter. I understand it has been allocated some money to carry out preliminary work. There was a question about the selection of the route and the matter is ongoing.

I adverted to the matter of the Dublin to Derry railway line earlier during my presentation. It is a matter for the Northern Ireland authorities in the first instance. They have indicated their plans for it and it is a matter about which we can remain in contact with our northern counterparts.

Senator Cecilia Keaveney raised the matter of the bridge at Muff, County Donegal. My understanding is we are working on the last two bridges that were closed as result of the troubles in Northern Ireland. I am not sure about the circumstances of the bridge at Muff.

The circumstances were the same. It is a Border crossing.

I am aware it is a Border crossing but my understanding was the last two remaining crossings were discussed and agreed, but we will check.

One of the other points raised concerned the port at Moville, County Donegal. We have a ports policy and a study on future seaport capacity carried out by Fisher Associates consultants. This provides the basis on which we are progressing policy. The provision of any new facilities at the port would be a matter for the port company to finance either on its own or in a joint venture. It is not something in which we will get involved directly, except as a last resort. There is sufficient overall capacity on the island of Ireland. There is some spare lift-on lift-off, lo-lo, capacity in Northern Ireland and roll-on roll-off, ro-ro, capacity in Ireland, which is complementary. If there were to be a development in Moville it would have to be financed by the port.

There were questions raised about bus tickets, including the suggestion that it is not possible to buy integrated tickets on-line for travel between here and the North. It is not possible to buy integrated tickets for travelling around Dublin at present, which is a difficulty we are trying to address with the proposed Dublin transport authority. However, I will raise the issue and I am sure my northern counterparts will raise it too. It makes sense to integrate tickets as much as possible.

A number of points about road safety were raised. This is an area in which there has been significant co-operation for several years, stretching back to the mid 1990s. Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin asked if there were statistics available on the causes of accidents North and South, and we do have these. My northern colleagues may discuss their statistics in detail, but there are extensive statistics available in Ireland and I am sure they are available in the North too. We co-operate and share information.

Deputy Ó Caoláin is correct to say not all accidents are caused by speed and drink driving, but the vast majority are. Some 40% of deaths on the roads here are related to drink driving. Speed is a significant factor in causing deaths too, as is not wearing a seatbelt. These are the three main factors leading to road deaths and they are the same in every country in the world; we are not an exception.

The point that keeps being hammered home to me about road safety and saving lives on the road – this is a general observation – is the need to address externalisation. Deputy Fergus O'Dowd and I have had discussions about this previously. Everybody thinks the fault lies with someone else. Drinkers do not think that drinking is a significant factor in road deaths and injuries. Inexperienced drivers and provisional licenceholders do not believe that inexperience is a factor; such people maintain the cause is all drink-related. Those who speed do not believe that speed has anything to do with the problem. The nature of the correspondence and available material on the problem is remarkable. I am sure Deputy O'Dowd receives the same type of material. We should not just tackle one issue at a time.All the people affected come out and they regard everything else as the problem.

The Minister is absolutely right; it comes from one's own side as much as from the other.

I am being tortured at the moment by a few people.

Mr. Devlin said it is probably best summarised by the fellow who thinks he drives a bit better with a few drinks on him. I just make the point as it is something we have all had to face. If there are specific issues we have not dealt with, I will be pleased to come back to the committee.

We are anxious to advance the mutual recognition of penalty points and disqualification as quickly as possible. Disqualification is a little easier and it is a relative term compared to the recognition of penalty points. The UK Government and the Minister, Mr. Jim Fitzpatrick, who takes the lead on this particular aspect of it, will be having a meeting on 10 June to try to finalise a timetable, which we hope will be the autumn or the back end of this year, for the mutual recognition of disqualification. This is my aim and I really want to stick to that timetable; our friends in Northern Ireland are in tune with this aim. The UK authorities have the job of bringing that forward.

The mutual recognition of penalty points is a difficulty. When I met with the Minister, Mr. Jim Fitzpatrick, on other issues, we had a conversation because the subject is of interest to both sides. The first procedure that has to be put in place - I stand to be corrected if I am wrong - is that Northern Ireland and the UK have to try to align their penalty points systems and then talk in terms of us aligning with them. I received an in-depth briefing from the official in the Minister, Mr. Fitzpatrick's office, on the difficulties from a legal and constitutional point of view and from other points of view. This indicates to me a timetable of three to four years.

Accepting that this is the issue, is it not possible to deal with it in any other way? Should we not be able to deal with it in our separate jurisdictions by impounding the cars of those who incur penalty points? It is such a serious issue. Nobody disagrees with the necessity to do this, but we need to effect change sooner within our own jurisdictions and take the cars off them until they pay the penalty or whatever. We will have to be really tough.

I agree with the Deputy. If one commits an offence in the North, for example, if one hits a bicycle being walked along the side of the road but the person has not been injured, one's car will be impounded and one will be taken to the police station. The case in this jurisdiction is that even if a driver had knocked down the person, he or she would not even be arrested. Even a mutual recognition of a serious incident would be welcome.

Such an incident would be within the provisions of the Road Traffic Act and it is something we could consider. I am anxious that it would not take as long as I am being informed. The tentative date for a meeting between myself and the Ministers, Ms Arlene Foster and Mr. Jim Fitzpatrick, is 10 June when it is hoped we will discuss both those issues to see if they can be advanced. I would be anxious to try to ensure we reach the situation of mutual recognition of penalty points or being able to enforce them in both jurisdictions. It would be extremely important. Deputy O'Dowd put it very fairly.

The first man I talked to about this subject when I was the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government was Sam Foster, when he was in the Northern Ireland Executive. I was telling him about the view expressed by Deputy O'Dowd about people coming across the Border at high speed and paying no attention to anything. He listened very sympathetically and nodded in agreement and then he looked at me and said, "Do you know something, they say exactly the same about southern drivers in the North."

I thank the Minister. Specific responses may be sent to the clerk of the committee who will circulate them to members.

I thank the delegation. I invite the Minister to join us later for lunch but I am aware he has another commitment.

Before the officials from Northern Ireland come in to join us, I wish to make some points. I understand that currently there is a problem whereby Coolmore residents in Derry cannot get a local bus service to deal with the needs of new housing developments in that area. It seems to be a cross-Border licensing problem. Perhaps the committee could review that situation as I have a strong personal interest in rural transport.

This week we were disappointed to learn that Flybe airline has decided to suspend its Belfast-Galway link. This is worrying and it is not known how long the link will be suspended. There may have been a problem with the size of the aircraft being used. Is it an issue which could be addressed by both sides in order to find a solution? I know the board and management of Galway Airport are very anxious to accelerate and increase traffic between Belfast and Galway and we would all be in agreement.

A major bugbear during all my political life of 26 years has been the N63 Belfast-Galway road. It goes through three provinces and nine counties. It is a very bad road. Considering the investment in the main national primary routes, I would like this road to be considered. We would have no problem if the improvements were to start in Belfast and come south-westwards towards Galway. It may be possible that all the counties, North and South, both Ministers, Departments and agencies could co-operate on the project.

Mr. Geoff Allister

I shall first deal with the timescale for the A5. Two milestones have been agreed through the North-South Ministerial Council, NSMC. One is that a route corridor study will be completed by the end of 2008 and that a preferred route for the scheme would be completed by mid-2009. The preferred route is really a major milestone and currently we are on target to achieve both those milestones.

Looking at start and completion times, people will understand that we are still at the early investigative stages and public information days were held last week. We are at an early stage and it is very difficult to be specific. We do not have a confirmed line so when one does not have a confirmed line, one does not know the number of bridges, the ground conditions, whether it will be going through hills or over hills or whatever. Nevertheless, there are statutory procedures which are legislative and legal and also EU requirements which require the publication of an environmental statement. These are not areas which can be short-cut and to attempt to short-cut them could put the whole project at considerable risk because it could then be held up to judicial review for not following due process. However, with a fair wind through the statutory procedures, we could start by 2012 and complete by 2015.

On the question as to whether this would be one contract or multiple contracts, in my view it would not be sensible to do an 88 km contract in one go because it is too high risk. I think it will be broken into a number of contracts but I do not know what that number will be; it might be three or four because the more contracts, the more difficult it is to merge them all together. We are working on this at the moment.

I will need to return to the committee on some of the points raised. In terms of proposals for the N16-A4, our proposals are to focus on the sections of the A4 that are the most heavily used, this being the section from Enniskillen, the Enniskillen southern bypass and the Fivemiletown bypass which is further on towards the east. The scheme currently being undertaken to improve the Dungannon to Ballygawley stretch of the A4 into a dual carriageway will also include a stretch of two-plus-one which will go as far as the village of Augher and make considerable improvements in the road. I was asked whether the A5 will be a dual carriageway for its full length. It is planned to develop it as a dual carriageway for its full length. I will have to get back to the committee about Ballinacarry Bridge. I have not been briefed on that. I know my Department and its counterpart in the South are examining the matter. I will have to send the committee a note on it.

I was also asked about the new stretch of the A5 north of Strabane. While we think the best line to take will be exclusively in the North, I will take the committee's comments back with me and we will keep the matter under review.

I was asked about the development of a rail route along the road corridor. I have already outlined the timescales. My staff and I have a clear focus on the construction of 88 km of dual carriageway as quickly as possible. Road and rail lines are constructed to different standards. If we were to examine the possibility of developing a railway line as we pursue the construction of the proposed road along the corridor in question, we might well find that it would need to be built in a different location. I have to say I have a clear focus on trying to deliver the road scheme as quickly as possible. I have already indicated that it is a big enough challenge for me as things stand.

I am aware that work is being done on the Strabane-Lifford link, but I do not have the details of it. I will have to send the committee a note on the standards involved and whether there will be a new bridge, etc.

I was also asked about the road between Aughnacloy and Ballygawley. The road works which are taking place at present are part of the scheme to put in place a dual carriageway between Dungannon and Ballygawley. A couple of bad bends near the quarry at Tullyvar are being removed as part of that scheme. There will be a stretch of two-plus-one road at that location. When we are deciding on what to do with the A5 in that area, the Dungannon to Ballygawley road might be used at that stage to form part of the improved dual carriageway system. I cannot give any specific details until the actual line of the road is established.

I have answered members' questions on the basis of the notes available to me. If I have missed something, I will be happy if it is picked up on so I can give a response.

Ms Doreen Brown

I was asked about the timescale for the improvement of the Derry railway line. It is still some way off. The scheme is due to begin in 2011 and to be completed by 2013, when additional new trains will be available. This £64 million scheme cannot begin before then because it is quite complex - it involves a great deal of planning and statutory processes. Until last year, there was a policy of making no further investment in lesser used parts of Northern Ireland's railways. Therefore, no planning was done for the scheme. Last year, when the draft budget was coming through with extra money for that scheme, we were able to begin to plan the scheme with confidence. The various planning phases will last until 2011.

I was also asked about accessing EU funding. We look for every opportunity to attract EU funding to infrastructural schemes, including railway schemes. We will examine the potential of using such schemes on the Belfast to Dublin and Belfast to Derry lines, which could be described as the Dublin to Derry line. Schemes have to be brought to a certain stage of preparedness before applications to the EU for funding can be made. We have not closed our minds to the possibility of getting EU funding - far from it.

Given that some new passing points are being sought, as opposed to a full new track route, does much more land really need to be acquired? As a lay person, I cannot understand why it will take so much time.

Ms Doreen Brown

Yes. It is not clear whether one or two passing loops will be needed. That will be decided during the planning process. We do not know whether the line will have to be dualled on its approaches to Derry and Coleraine, or whether the current single track will suffice. A number of decisions have to be made, as part of the planning process, before we will know how much additional land will be needed. We have been exploring these matters in conjunction with Northern Ireland Railways, NIR. We are testing the timescales which NIR is putting to us. We will not accept them without challenge or examination. Having considered some of these matters and mapped out the various stages of the process, we are convinced that it is not physically possible to begin the work on the ground before 2011. Improvements are being made to the section of track between Ballymena and Coleraine, which is the section with the worst speed restrictions at present. A £12 million scheme is under way in that area to address problems with wet beds, etc. The scheme will do something to improve journey times between Belfast and Derry, in advance of the commencement of the main works between Coleraine and Derry.

Members made the case for the development of further rail links. Our current plans do not involve pushing the railway through Derry into County Donegal. That is not to say that such a project will never happen. Railway issues are always on the agenda of the North-South Ministerial Council. It is inevitable that proposals will be made to examine the scope for further enhancement of the rail network. Such proposals will be considered by Ministers on both sides of the Border.

The Minister, Deputy Dempsey, made a number of points about road safety. As a consequence of the manner in which transport functions are split in the North, the Department for Regional Development does not have responsibility for road safety - that falls to the Department of the Environment. I do not have statistics for the causes of road accidents. I can get such figures from my colleagues in the Northern Ireland Department of the Environment.

Similarly, issues like penalty points and the mutual recognition of driving disqualifications and offences are functions of the Department of the Environment. I am aware that attempts are being made to put a scheme in place, as the Minister, Deputy Dempsey, said. I genuinely do not know what scope there is in the legislation to take other action in the interim as a way of showing official displeasure with those who commit offences on the other side of the Border. I would be happy to refer that question to the Department of the Environment. I am sure it will be considered in the context of the North-South Ministerial Council. Two of our Ministers - Arlene Foster and Conor Murphy - will be in attendance, along with the Southern Minister, Deputy Dempsey, at next week's transport sectoral meeting of that council.

I would like to speak about the A5-N2 road. The officials mentioned that public meetings are taking place in that regard at present. The stretch of the road between Aughnacloy and Monaghan is of extreme significance. Has agreement been reached to develop that route as a dual carriageway on the southern side of the Border? I arrived at this meeting just as the Minister, Deputy Dempsey, was addressing that matter. I did not pick him up correctly. The decision that is taken will have major implications. If the old road is to be retained, there will be no reason the single carriageway that is already planned should not go ahead as a matter of urgency. If a new route is to be developed, a different route to the one straight through Aughnacloy at the Moy Bridge could be taken from Ballygawley to the Clontibret bypass at Castleshane. That would be extremely important for people in County Monaghan. Perhaps I can get some clarification in that regard.

Having heard the response given by the Minister, Deputy Dempsey, I am as concerned as Deputy Crawford. He indicated that while the NRA is responsible for the matter, he expects that the road in question will be developed as a single carriageway. That runs contrary to all the information we have been given on the ground and on foot of the inquiries we have made with the Department.

It is also contrary to what the former Taoiseach said when the original announcement was made.

That is correct. Perhaps the officials can offer clarification, having picked up on what the Minister has said. Can Doreen Brown clarify whether it would be appropriate for her to pass on the issue of on-line purchases of bus tickets? The Minister, Deputy Dempsey, said he will look at this issue. I ask the Northern Ireland officials to do likewise. Both sides will have to work together if we are to overcome the silly technical issues which are still in place.

The public consultation process in Derry on Friday would have thrown up the same issue. I am not sure to which officials I was speaking at that time but they were concerned that a decision did not seem to have been made. To go from a dual carriageway to single track to two lanes plus one would be dangerous. That is a road safety issue as much as anything else.

I want to pick up on what Ms Brown said about the recognition of vouchers. It is difficult if the Enterprise train is late and passengers are given vouchers to compensate them but those vouchers are not recognised in the North and can only be used to buy tickets in Dublin.

My issue is one for politicians to deal with not officials on either side of the Border. A blind person would see that there is a complete vacuum in terms of joined-up policy on both sides of the Border, be it on a Monaghan-Tyrone level or a Donegal-Tyrone-Derry level. We have to raise the bar. What is the point in investing €580 million in a stretch of road from Derry to Aughnacloy, which is a dual carriageway, and then creating a bottleneck across the Border? This is the type of issue on which we, as politicians, have to focus. I am worried about the approach being taken. The North-South Ministerial Council has been meeting. This is an issue that should be debated at next week's transport meeting within the North-South ministerial framework. The Border area and the counties on both sides of the Border have been more affected socio-economically and politically in the past by the Troubles and we have to bring about joined-up thinking in terms of policy. I am pleased we have the opportunity to meet today. We need these meetings to highlight issues. However, joined-up thinking does not exist. I am disappointed the Minister, Deputy Dempsey, is not going to keep the door open in terms of having somebody involved from Monaghan County Council and Donegal County Council.

Mr. Pat Doherty, MLA, MP

Mr. Allister said they were thinking the preferred route on that stretch between Strabane and Derry would be on the northern side. That seems to me to be a bit premature, given that we are in consultation, although the Minister said he would look at it again. Given that the project is jointly funded, does Mr. Devlin have an opinion about the point at which they should connect with Derry and the possibility of connecting on the Donegal side?

Mr. Ronnie Devlin

I am afraid I cannot respond to the last point but I will get back to Mr. Doherty. Regarding the roadway from Monaghan to Aughnacloy, in fairness, Deputy Ó Caoláin heard the Minister's response. The points all speakers have made about that stretch have been powerfully made. I will raise them with the officials concerned and with the National Roads Authority. What the speakers have said makes perfect sense to me.

Hear, hear.

Mr. Geoff Allister

With regard to the last point, one of the things that we are going to take forward in terms of the linkages around Derry and between Derry and Donegal, on the Letterkenny road, for example, is to investigate through a feasibility study where the linkages might properly lie around Derry. That could lead to a western bypass with another bridge, for example. I am not saying that it will; but it could lead to that. It is in that context that we will examine this issue. We are at the consultation stage so please do not take it from me that minds are made up. Minds are not made up on this and we have to look at all the options because when we go to public inquiry if we are seen not to have considered all the options then we will be open to challenge. We need to make sure we have considered everything.

Ms Doreen Brown

I want to confirm that I will take up the issue of the unavailability of bus tickets on-line, and the point about the vouchers not being recognised in the North.

I have been involved in cross-Border activity at various levels. The type of work that was being done at local authority level 30 years ago seemed to be very powerful without any money. Today is the first example of the same type of activity that went on at local authority level at a national level with money and with decision makers. It is heartening that the committee is doing what I hoped it would do. We are aware of the issues. It is brilliant that both the North and the South have been represented here and that we have had an opportunity not just to pat each other on the back and say it is wonderful that there is cross-Border co-operation. We are down to the hard stuff but we are trying to fill that vacuum that we, as politicians, recognise because we are dealing with them day in and day out. I commend the Chairman on the fact the committee is achieving something.

On behalf of the committee, and on my own behalf, I thank Mr. Geoff Allister, Ms Doreen Brown, the Minister, Deputy Noel Dempsey, and Mr. Ronnie Devlin, for their presence and for their openness, frankness and positive response to all the comments and questions. We have received positive information and indicative dates for projects and a commitment to resources. It is clear that there is strong, positive co-operation and an amount of joined-up thinking. While we have not reached utopia in terms of the joined-up thinking that is vital for progress on the island, we have made great strides. I heartily commend everybody involved. It is encouraging to hear about the progress that has been made.

I would be grateful if Mr. Allister and Ms Brown would convey our congratulations to the Minister, Cormac Murphy, on the achievements of his Department and to wish him and his team every success. I thank the Minister, Deputy Noel Dempsey, for his role and in particular for the vast funding he has secured from the Exchequer under the national development plan for the projects. I have a strong personal interest in the Narrow Water bridge project. I see it as a flagship project North and South and as a symbol of what can be done on this island, replicating what has been done in many of the peripheral areas of Europe, especially in France, Spain, Portugal and elsewhere. I hope European money will be available to bring that to fruition. If it goes ahead it will do an immense amount for the tourism industry and for mobility and opportunities for natives and tourists.

The committee looks forward to meeting with everybody again in the future and perhaps to meeting in the North with officials there and the Minister, Mr. Murphy, to discuss our interest in transport infrastructure and its continued development. I acknowledge the presence of Mr. Reg McCabe, the projects director of IBEC-CBI joint business council, and Mr. Mythen and Ms O'Brien from the Department of Foreign Affairs. Everybody is invited to lunch.

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